Conference noted::equitation

    I don't think there is such a magic cure all for a hot horse.  I
    would try looking at what you are feeding.  Are you giving too much
    protein?  If you are just feeding sweetfeed, take her/him off and
    switch to low protein pellets like Trotter and increase hay.  Tell
    us what you are using your horse for.  Horses can become cheerfully
    manical when they are getting insufficient exercise, or are extreamly
    bored.  Your horse might be hot because he needs mental stimulation.
    
    Source can work both ways.  On some horses it makes them quiet,
    but why I don't know (it could be the vitamin B's) and then again
    it can make them worse.  I don't know about any of the others.
    
    Looking at the behavorial aspect, your "friend" could very well
    have your number.  Sometimes a horse enjoys scaring the living
    daylights out of his owner because it gets him a reaction, attention
    (even negative) or it gets him put away.  If that is the case, then
    he/she needs ironing out - ie. strict control and development of
    a working attitude.  I know that with my 4 year old Arab, he learns
    so fast that sometimes all I have to work with him on a new concept
    is half an hour.  After that he becomes bored and looks for stuff
    to do.
    
    Last but not least sometimes you land a horse with half a brain,
    and no matter what you do, the hampster just doesn't turn the wheel
    upstairs.
    
    Good luck
    stephanie

    
    
    I have the same problem with my mare--4 y.o. TB.  I had to cut her
    grain back to just 1.5 lbs. twice a day and increase her hay to
    two flakes twice a day.  The other thing is that she gets turned
    out for about 4 hours 3-4 days a week.  The turnout has made the
    biggest difference.  She is an entirerly different horse when I
    go out to ride if she has been out that day.  I don't have to lunge
    her more than 10 to 15 minutes and can then ride her without wondering
    if she is going to try to launch us both into space. She gets out
    into a small dry lot where she can see the other horses and whats
    going on around her and has enough room to run a little bit and
    let off that extra energy in a constructive manner.  The days that
    she doesn't get out it can take 10 minutes to get the halter on
    and about an hour of lunging before she is ready to settle down
    and work at the lesson for that day. 
    
    
    
     Pat

    
    	well here is the scoop.
    she on oats and sweet feed i have to watch the weight factor, cuase
    she fit now, but seems hard to get fat (if any).  anyway she gets
    worked just about every day, she gets time off after a show for
    about 3- 7 days.  then we go back to the basics and work up
    the the mental part of it?  does she have my number, unfornutaly
    my trainer and myself agree, shes too smart for her own good.
    in refernce to numbers.. yes and no, but i win now*
    
    what i'm looking for is something to bring her down. as it is she
    hot for pleasure, but with work i can generally get her down.
    however the night before last, i got her upset and no matter how
    much i worked her she swore up and down she didnt know what a lope
    or a jog was, well maybe 3 or 4 steps;^) (honest mom i dont know
    what the heck you are talking about)
    
    anyway.. what should i do?? keep working her and just ignore it??
    i'm spending big bucks for this next horse show and wont show if
    she like this.  i guess what i see as poor performance might
    be good for someone else.  and go to small shows to school i guess.
    
    any suggestions..
    
    i tried calm and cool i guess i'll just stay with that til the time
    being..
    

In my opinion, sweet feed and oats are the hottest thing you could possibly
feed a horse.   I'd definitely recommend switching (gradually) to a straight
low/medium protein pellet.   Also, if you're having any trouble keeping weight
on the horse, have a stool check done to check for worms.  Another thing,
if a horse is too fit, then he'll be too hot.  Generally, you want them
only "as fit" as needed.  

I've seen advertisements for the supplements you mentioned;  maybe they really
do work, but I suspect they're like a placebo for the rider.  If we "think"
our horse is going to be quieter, then the horse might indeed be quieter
(since the horse senses a calmer rider on board).  Who knows!

    I would suggest talking to someone at Tufts about food, cause oats
    and sweetfeed would make any horse go to the moon.  When I housed
    my baby at a Morgan show barn in Shrewsbury, the trainer there put
    my little arab on crimped oats, crushed oats and pellets.  I thought
    I had a helicopter instead of a horse.  When I moved him to where
    he orginially was supposed to be the woman there slowly changed
    him to pellets with just a bit of sweetfeed.  The result, a totaly
    different horse.  It sounds to me like you got too much octane in
    the tank, and that you could get the energy you need for showing
    but also achieve the sanity factor but giving pellets with some
    sweetfeed.  My trainer who broke my arab rides cross country nationally
    and they feed pellets (higher than Trotter in protein) with a bit
    of sweetfeed for taste, and their Throughbreds are fit, hard and
    just the right weight.  
    
    Just a note, how much are you feeding this guy?  Don't push the
    protein to get the weight because then disaster could occur.  I
    used to work at Tufts and saw many results of disasterous feeding
    programs, and 9 times out of 10 is was due to too high protein for
    the horse to handle.  Each horse is different in his needs and work
    schedule and metabolism.  Tinkering on a slow scale will get you
    to a point of a mentally healthy horse and a fit one to.  Talk to
    an expert and find out why you are giving each grain and take it
    from there.
    
    good luck
    stephanie who hates to fly helicopters
    

    i can take her to a five day show work her all day and by the 6
    day she is still rearing to go. she has so much heart, and i think
    she feels pleasure classes are not for her.:^)
    well i guess i will just try and be consistant with my training
    schedule. i have had her on pellets, trotter and then another
    kind. then i switched to half pellets and half sweet, then to pellets
    sweet and crimped oats.  along all this there has been no change
    in engery no more, no less.
    
    btw she gets about 10 qts all toghether. i would like to see her
    fatter (halter horse fat) but dont want that big of a feed bill
    plus risking the health of the horse, (founder etc.)
    
    she has beened wormed every 4 weeks-6 during show schedule
    6-8 off season.
    
    i rotate wormers, she gets supplements but dont do anything on energy
    b vit, will make a horse more energic btw.  the tryhtlem (sp?)
    is supposed to mellow them out.
    
                                       
    		wendy
    

    I've had a helicopter myself and find that
    
     1. My pinto is a mental midget with too much *hot* food (i.e. sweet,
        oats, crushed corn).  In the spring I wean him down to approx.
        1/2-1 lb. of sweet per feeding (from 2 1/2 lbs.) and up the
        pellets to 2 1/2 lbs. (from 1 lbs).
    
     2. I had the care of one horse (15.2 school quarter horse) that
        we could not put any weight on.  We had him getting up to 15
        lbs. A DAY!  He stayed skin and bones even though he was on
        a regular worming schedule.  Then we were able to take him to
        a field for as much fresh grass as he could nosh.  After just
        one week, he looked like a totally different horse!  We worked
        him gradually and he looked like a dream.  Mentally he evened
        out too.
    
    Is your horse getting any grazing?
    
    As far as hot, my little beastie was still full of P & V the 4th
    day of the Vermont 100 miler.  It didn't occur to me until afterwards
    that I should have reduced his sweet feed even further.  It doesn't
    take much *high octane* to get him going.  He's sort of like one
    of those small Japanese cars, 50 miles to the gallon (or is it quart?).
    
    I too, tried showing and found that Cheyenne is just not a pleasure
    horse!  His gates are just too fast but I did find out that he is
    a GREAT reining, pattern riding, endurance and trail horse.  He
    gets board with the walk-trot-lope of the ring but give him something
    he has to think about, and watch him go.  He rises to a challenge.
    
    Hope I haven't rambled too much.  I think you've gotten so good
    advice from the others.  Just had to add my 2 cents.
    
    Good luck!  Have patience which I *know* can be very difficult to
    sustain.
    
    Roslyn
    
    P.S. When I've really lost my cool, I've been known to threaten
    him with a visit to A-L-P-O.  You should see the look I get! 

	Good topic Wendy - and now if I may add more questions...

	I may be mistaken, but isn't Trotter 14% protein?  It's also a
complete feed ie: hay/roughage is the primary ingredient.  Just how
much concentrated feed is a horse actually getting with Trotter?

	If a horse has free choice hay/or pasture - wouldn't he/she be
better off with sweet feed or pelleted feed (a balanced ration without 
the added hay).  Isn't (good quality) hay a big factor in weight gain? 


JB

    I had a mare with a Selenium deficiency that was about half
    crazy till I figured it out. But that's a little rare. I also
    had one horse that was unmanageable when fed race horse oats
    (higher quality and protein level than normal oats.
        
    All my horses, including the event horses are out to pasture
    at least part of the day.  You can't expect a horse to stand in
    a stall all day and act normal when you ride it. Especially a
    hot competitive horse.  Even if they go outside and do nothing
    but run for an hour, they get a chance to be real horse without
    having to fight with you about behaving.  I find they stay a little
    but a lot less resentful and ready to work with me instead of against
    me. 
   
   

    
    		well my mare is out in the morning and comes in for
    lunch (grain and hay) plus to keep her coat nice from the sun.
    
    she is generally ok, but i wanted a llittle added edge when she
    gets excited or hot.
    
    yesterday, and friend lunged her at a extended trot for an hour
    and i rode her later that day.
    
    i threw on some draw reins got the head set and she was perfect.
    but for those days that i do work her and shes interested in barrels
    and i want to trail ride or whatever i figured i could keep her
    on an even keel.
    
    anyway, i guess i will have to live with it i just thought some
    show people might be using something i didnt know about.
    
    
    
    can we talk about team (massaging ) or should we start a new note?
    
    
    	
    				wendy o'
    

    Re: .10
    
    > can we talk about team (massaging ) or should we start a new note?
     
    Notes have already been started on these topics.  See notes 167 (TEAM) 
    and 318 (massage).
    
    						Jan

    
    thanks..
    		wendy
    
    

    It's a bit late but I've just seen this note. Can someone explain
    what sweet feed is please - I've never come across that term in
    England.
    
    As for hot horses - I own a 7/8 TB dressage horse, and when I bought
    him the owners told me NEVER to even let him smell an oat, or he
    would become unmanageable. So I feed him on cooked flaked barley
    (sometimes called micronized barley), bran, molassed chaff, and
    a few non-heating nuts. We have a feed over here called Baileys
    - it comes in a few different varieties. I feed Baileys No. 2 Nuts
    (Cubes) which are non-heating. They also do a No. 1 which looks
    like dried bread crumbs. I've fed this with barley for several years,
    and my horse is in good condition, and quite calm.
    
    I've also found that my horse needs at least 5 hours, and preferably
    7 - 8 in the field to keep him calm and happy. He works for between
    3/4 and 1 hour six times a week, comes into his stable every evening,
    goes out for the rest of the day, and has two feeds per day, plus
    hay. You might find that spending more time in the field takes the
    edge of your horse.
    
    Regards,
    
    Pamela

    sweet feed is a mixed grained - usually corn, oats and  alfalfa pellets,
    sweetened with molasses.  Depending on where you are located, sweet
    feed may also contain bran, beet pulp,millet, barley or whatever is a
    prevalent local crop, and vitamins/minerals.  It is fed along with hay 
    for a complete diet. You can buy it in different varieties with
    protein levels from 8% to 25%. It's kind of tasty, too.
    
    

    
    Oh, now I understand - we call sweet feed "coarse mix" over here.
      
    I think sweet feed would be quite heating - full of oats etc.