Conference noted::equitation

    THE ONLY EXPERIENCE THAT I CAN RELATE WAS LAST SPRING WE GAVE THE
    RHINO,ENC.,TET,---4WAY AS ITS REFERRED--AND A WORMING SHOT TO 4
    OF OUR HORSES,ONE DID EXPERIENCE A REACTION TO THE WORMER--A VERY
    LARGE LUMP IN THE NECK WHERE THE WORMING SHOT WAS GIVEN--SHE WAS
    SO STIFF WE HAD TO HANG HER HAY/GRAIN UP HIGHER SO SHE COULD EAT....
    SYMPTOMS LASTED 2 DAYS---TEMP NORMAL---ATE WELL---MY VET ALSO
    RECOMMENDED BUTE TO HELP W/STIFFNESS----ALL WENT WELL
    MY VET ALSO STATED THAT A REACTION TO ANY SHOT IS NOT UNCOMMON----
    SO THE BEST I CAN OFFER IS TO CONSULT W/ANOTHER VET TO MAKE SURE-----
    SYMPTOMS LASTING THIS LONG IS NOT A GOOD SIGN..LET US KNOW WHAT
    HAPPENS---GOOD LUCK
    
    GARY   DTN 221-5425

    Did you use any fly spray at the same time that your horse was wormed?
    Sometimes there is a reaction, because the fly spray is a cholinase
    inhibitor, which, if I remember, causes muscles to tie up.  Read
    the info that comes with the wormer.  If it says not to use with
    a product that is a cholinase inhibitor, and you have used fly spray,
    call your vet and tell him SOON!
    
    Let me know what happens.  
    Merrie Aiken
    DTN 341-2395
    

    
    
    The "what caused it" is as concerning as the symptoms you describe.
    I have only observed laminitis once in my life, but it was something
    I shall never forget...  and what you describe - your horse 'camping
    out' and not moving about on his own, and having noticable heat
    in his feet would be enough for me to get the vet back, take x-rays
    if possible and do a complete blood count (again).  Horses can be
    caught in the initial stages of founder, no matter what caused it,
    and brought back to a usable condition w/careful and corrective
    with careful and corrective shoeing.  Will keep my fingers crossed,
    and with careful shoeing and attention (we did alternate hot and
    cold soaks for days).  Call the vet, will keep my fingers crossed
    for you. Let us know how you make out.  h

    This is an update on my horse's condition. First, the vaccine used
    was a Fort Dodge product, rhino& flu combination. The wormer is
    called Rintal. It is not an ivermectin wormer as we like to rotate
    the wormers. I did not use flyspray on the horse. I did ask the
    vet and he says that fly spray reactions are associated with the
    older wormers that contain some type of phosphate. 
    
    The vet cama again yesterday. He tested the hooves and came to the
    conclusion that  the prblem is not in the feet. However the horse
    appears to be sore all over. He does not want to move and  turning
    him around is a slow operation. It's sad to watch him move. At about
    the same time this started we had switched his grain to a pellet
    feed called Roundup by Manna-Pro. I asked about the possibility
    of something in the pellets causing the problem. Although notlikely
    we have stopped the pellets and the vet has started treatment with
    cortisone. This treatment will only last until Monday. If this does
    not do it the vet recommends that we bring in the big guns. In this
    case it wil be either the Large Animal Clinic in Littleton, or the
    Colorado State University Vet School in Fort Collins. Hope we don't
    have to go to that extreme.
    
    That's where we are right now. I'll keep you updated on what happens.
    

    
    		good luck.... you are in the best part of the country
    for vets.(my opinion of coursse).
    		keep us up on the latest.
    	seems to me i heard something like this before.  In denver.
    cant remember what the treatment was.
    	wendy.
    

    The phosphates mentioned in flyspray that react with some wormers
    are organophosphates.  They occur mostly in wormers that kill bots.
    We had one bad reaction with them and will not use wormers with
    them again.
    
    I have also had a horse with laminitis, but we caught it very early
    and she had no damage at all to her feet.  From what I read about
    laminitis at that time, if your horse had it, he would be in extreme
    pain by now (or even a week ago).
    
    One of our horses used to get reactions to rhino shots similar to
    those mentioned (not being able to graze or eat off the floor).
    In fact our horse was so sore in the neck that she had difficultly
    walking.  We then gave her rhino shots in the hip.  It made her
    hind legs a bit sore (not as bad as the neck), but she could eat
    and walking was a little better than with the sore neck.
    
    I've also heard of horses (and people) catching the disease from
    the vaccine, especially modified live virus vaccines.  Did the vet
    mention any possibility of that?  Hope all goes well.
    
    						Jan
    

    Since last update we thought that the horse had an abscess low in
    the neck at the shoulder line. We treated all weekend with hot packs.
    Yesterday, Monday the vet came again. Still could not locate the
    abscess. Took blood. The results did not back up the abscess idea.
    The senior vet came at noon. He thinks that the horse is working
    himself into a founder situation. So we are back to the laminityis
    thing ( I would have preferred an abscess!) The vet thinks that
    riding the horse for 30 to 45 minutes a day might clear up the
    condition. We walked Heri (the horse) for thirty minutes (just led
    him). He got a little lather around the armpits and rear end. Last
    night his feet were warmer than I've noticed them to date. He is
    also on bute. This morning I called the vet to inquire about giving
    some medication to open up the capillaries in the feet. He'll back
    this afternoon to give the first application and will leave medication
    that needs to be injected several times/day to keep the capillaries
    open. The idea in asking for this is that there seems to be little
    point in walking the horse and pushing against blocked capilaries.
    All that would do in my estimation is to increase pressure and pain.
    I hope this helps the poor guy. Also, we are pulling his shoes this
    afternoon but keeping the angles the same since the vet does not
    want to change the forces in the foot. That's the latest.
    
    bobk
    

    just wonderin' who your vet is..... you're in springs area right?
    		wendy.
    
    	p.s. did you use that shot for worming?
    

    I had a similar experience with a horse about 4 years ago. It turned
    out that the drug which the veterinarian used to treat the symptoms
    (I don't recall what it was) actually caused an allergic reaction
    in the horse.  So it got worse because of the treatment.  It took
    quite a while to figure this out.  And did the horse get sick, since
    the initial response to the illness was more of the same drug!
    
    It may be that your horse was already beginning to founder, independent
    of the vaccine.  Sometimes founder comes on overnight, and sometimes
    over a longer period.  It really depends on the personality of your
    horse. Like people, they tolerate different level of pain before
    giving in to the symptoms.  
    
    It may be that your horse developed a fever in reaction to the vaccine
    situation.  Fever will cause laminitis.
    
    Unless this veterinarian has been treating your horse for a long
    time, I would talk to friends and bring in someone else.  Actually,
    what I would do if the situation lingers on is bite the bullet and
    go on to the university.  It doesn't take laminitis long to turn
    into a chronic condition!
    
    =paul=

    Our vet used Lasix on our horse when she was developing laminitis.
    But she wasn't sick for a long time like yours is.  No one mentioned
    the name of the drug that some horses have a reaction to.  Just
    wondering if it is Lasix.
    
    About the walking - one of the articles in Equus on laminitis says
    that walking is good for the horse with laminitis.  It is painful
    as you are putting more pressure on the capillaries in the hoof,
    but at the same time you are forcing the blood to flow and carry
    off some of the built up toxins.  They did mention that some people
    find it hard to make their horse walk because they are in such pain,
    but it does help.  I can't remember the issue it was in (probably
    a year or two ago).  When my horse developed laminitis, I got all
    the Equus issues that dealt with it and read them while waiting
    for the vet to come and they were all older issues.
    
    I agree with the advice about a second opinion or taking the horse
    to a clinic or university.
    
    						Jan
    

Monday, Dec 22, 86 Update. Last Update Tuesday, Dec 16.

Here is the lastest. Tuesday past, had Heri nerve blocked in both front feet.
He improved noticeably. So we now have a diagnosis of laminitis/founder.
The vet took Xrays. They showed slight to moderate  rotation of the coffin
bone on both feet. It also showed that he has foundered in the past. It's been
at least 6 years since he did not founder since we got him. The vet could not
tell how much rotation was new rotation if any.

Treatment:
Wed and Thursday: 2 grams bute twice a day, inject 1.5 cc's of Acepromacen every
six hours. This drug is basically a tranquilizer but has the effect of dilating
blood vessels. Also, start giving 30 tablets od ISOXSUPRINE. This stuff is also 
a blood vessel dilator but is slower acting.

Friday/Saturday. 3 grams bute per day. Continue ISOXSUPRINE.

Sunday, Monday, so on. 2 grams bute, ISOXSUPRINE. 

We have been hot packing the feet since Wednesday prior to walking the horse.
It seems to help him. 

His current condition: SORE! In the morning when the bute effect has worn off
he is very sore, not moving, hard to get to move. Once the bute takes effect
and after the first hot pack he is more willing to move if you lead him. He will
not move much on his own.

We are going to see about doing some special shoeing to get weight off his toes.
Need to talk to vet first. A farrier suggested two possibilities: 1. Put shoes
on backwards and reverse 4 degree pad to lower heels and raise the toes.
2. Reverse 4 degree pad, shoes on normal with rolled toe, and an external frog
mounted to pad to increase frog pressure. Anybody else has ideas on how to 
shoe for founder? The vet will have final word.

END OF UPDATE	bobk

		

    I can recommend a few articles which would seem appropriate.
    
    "Pedal bone rotation as a prognostic sign in laminitis of horses"
    Journal of American Veterinary Medicine Association. Vol 180, No.
    3.  February 1982.  Has great x-rays.
    
    "Physiopathology of Equine Laminitis".  S454 Vol 3, December 1981.
    Good description of the disease and its phases.
    
    "A method of corrective shoeing for laminitis in horses". Veterinary
    Medicine/Small Animal Clinician.  May 1983.  I recommend this highly.
    
    I can send copies of any of these along, if you like.
    
    
    =paul=

    
    
    So, what finaly happened???!?!?!?!