Conference terri::cars_uk

    Someone I know has an immobiliser it is basically a piece of pcb with
    anedge connector, the pcb has links between different pins on the edge
    connector and you have to insert this thing before the ignition circiut
    works......well his fell out due to combined effect of
    gravity/vibration he managed to get his back in with no problem but the
    consequences could have been dire!!!
    Richard

My alarm immobilizes the ignition system by disabling the EMS.  This it does 
effectively.  I've never tried to get round it though.

The system is Vauxhall's System 3.

    Richard,
    
    
    	I wish my car had an immobiliser...then I could stop you trying
    	to carry out 0 - 60 tests in it !!
    
    	Seriously though, does anyone have any views on the other
    anti-theft devices Eg, Krooklock, Autolock...etc?
    
    	Graham.

    I met a guy outside one of those DIY emporiums a couple of weeks ago,
    looking somewhat distraught (to say the least). 
    
    His Escort Cossie had been stolen in the 10 minutes he'd been inside.
    
    He told me he had his VECTA system switched on at the time.  Sounds
    like the pro thief already has a way round these hi-tech systems.
    
    John

    Would it really be worth all the hassle of owning one of these
    beasts, I would be scared sh**less of having it nicked whenever my
    back was turned.

	A friend of mine built one of those PCB type switches
	into his kit, it lives on the tunnel, so it has never
	fallen out.

	Dave

    The Pug 405 has an immobiliser and alarm fitted as standard. Don't know
    the techie details, does anyone here? I'd love to know.
    
    Laurie.

The Renault 19 16V and Renault Clio 16v have them as standard.

On my 19, there is a lock in the GLOVE compartment, which in turn switches 
on a little red light on the dash.

Now I'm not sure what the immobilizer does but I was told that if you leave 
the car for more than 24 hours you MUST switch it on or it will flatten the 
battery. The dealer said, come August the 2nd they had alot of new 19's 
that wouldn't start!!

Somehow I think it cuts off fuel to the engine, 'cos it's quite embarrasing 
when you forget it is on and try to start the car up!!

Greg

    I'd heard that Vectas are supposed to be good, and that most thiefs had
    not yet found a way past them.  Seems like this is no longer true.
    
    The Vecta that was broken at the Motor show was sone so quickly because
    they had a circuit diagram, the source of which was unofficial.  If
    these get to be common it will make Vecta's pretty useless in no time.
    
    For 400 quid there should be some sort of guarentee or something.
    
    As for other anti theft devices, they are discussed in this months
    Which? magazine. I'll read it and pop in a summary.
    
    Apparently cars have to have an immobiliser by Law, this is the
    steering lock on most cars.
    
    Dave Darrall

re -.2, I hope you don't take holidays, then :-)

	We have a key for the kit car, which cuts off the petrol (the person
	who built it, also raced it)

	I'm not sure how practical they are, but we have left this 3.5 V8, 
	definate boy-racer attractor, in car parks in Reading with no-one 
	nicking it for a burnup.

	Heather

    A friend had this old avenger a few years ago, it ha d a electronic
    fuel pump and he fitted a switch to it.  He left the car all over the
    place, no other theft deterrent.  If anyone got in it would start and
    they could drive it a couple of feet, then it would conk out.  The hope
    was they though the old car had broken down.
    
    dd

re .10


eh? I don't think you understand

                 <<< Note 1939.13 by BAHTAT::FORCE6::hilton >>>

Probably not :-)

    oh well :^)
    
    
    What I meant was IF you don't switch on your Renault immobilizer, then
    your battery will flatten in approx 24 hours. If you do switch it on,
    you can go on holiday :^)
    
    Greg

    I have a Minder immobilizer fitted to my car.  Its the PCB card type
    mentioned a few notes ago.  Not sure what it actually cuts off, but
    nothing happens when the key is turned unless the card is in place,
    thus when the card is pulled out when the engine still runs and it doesn't 
    cut out. 
    
    I also have a Mul-t-lock gear lock fitted.  This is a bracket bolted to
    the floor at the side of your gearstick enabling the stick to be locked
    in position (reverse in my case).  
    
    I have no complaints with any of the above, (no-ones nicked it yet
    anyway(touch wood)).  Oh and I also have a Club steering lock and a alarm!!
    
    ..Craig

    
    With regard to an Autolock.
    
    	I left school about 2 years ago,and while I was there several of my 
    	so-called-friends turned to car theft as some sort of sporting
    	actvity(incidently 3 of them are in a young offenders institute
        even as we speak),but they were telling me that when the autolock
    	came on the market that they found it more challenging than MOST 
    	alarm systems,and that not one of them had been bothered to spend
    	time trying to disengage one.
    		
    	Just a thought!
    	
    		Andy..They-took-cars-from-the-Pangbourne Ford-showroom-and
    	then-try-to-bait-the-police-into-chasing-them-usually-writing-off
    	one-of-the-cars...	

    Re: Autolock.
    
    Although I agree they are a deterrent they are easy to get round.  I
    wouldn't depend on just this.
    
    ..Craig

    I noticed that this month's "Which?" tested all sorts of car security
    devices. So does any keen Which? subscriber want to summarise the
    findings?

    I'm concerned that with wholesale grafting into the wiring loom to
    effect this immobilisation, in a few years time when a fault develops
    the dealers wouldn't stand a chance of fixing a fault. "It needs a new
    loom mate, some p****k's been mucking about wif it!"
    
    Or do you get a wiring diagram showing the circuits intruded into?.
    
    Richard

    WHICH ?  had 3 Immobilsers on Test, the best two are Vecta (412 quid
    fitted) "expensive but very secure" and Foxguard Jack Rabbit JR60
    (130+VAT fitted) "doesn't perform quite as well but is substantially
    cheaper"  the other was the Demon Autowatch A39i at 90+VAT fitted.
    
    The FOXguard loses out to the other two in current consumption.
    
    Of the Alarms test the best two are
    
    Scorpion 858 (420 quid) and Spyball RF53 ( 200 approx)
    Both of these include an engine immobiliser.
    
    Of the physical security devices the best are:
    Euro Mul-t-lock  117 quid fits on the gear leaver
    Lionweld wheelok super model A 128.50  a wheel clamp
    Belcar Belguard sportsman  29.50  a steering wheel clamp
    
    Apparently some of these lasted for more than 6 minutes !!
    They were beaten with force and simple tools.
    
    The Belcar has a lower security rating than the others
    
    There is a little pic of the Mul-T-LOK, looks like a PADLOCK
    see ya
    
    dave D.

    Has anyone tried creating their own 'immobiliser' ie. running a hidden 
    switch?  Where would the best place be to put a switch and what are
    the pros and cons?
    
    On an old MGB, I ran one between the power feed to the fuel pump. 
    Running out of petrol was not such a major thing on one of those
    engines but how would running out of fuel affect fuel injected engines?  
                
    Curious..
    
    Kris.
    

    Kris,
    
    a pretty common modification to 2.8i Capris is a switch which cut's the
    feed to the electric fuel pump. As fuel injected cars normally prime
    the pump before firing this was very effective.
    
    A method I used on mine was to remove the Fuel injection relay - a
    large relay not unlike a Flasher relay - without which the car will not
    run, and which even the most enterprising thief is unlikely to carry.
    
    Graham
    

    I put a switch in the power to the fuel pump of a Land Rover and
    located it out of sight, but within reach, under the dash.
    
    I also put a mortice lock on the hi-lo ratio gear lever to lock it in
    neutral.  It was a back-door lock --  I cut a slot in the mortice to
    take the gear lever then bolted it under the floor.
    
    Wherever you put the switch it needs to be (IMHO) out of sight and yet
    accessible.  And if the access can be unobtrusive, so much the better.

    I had a great immobiliser on my old Mk II Cortina - I took the
    clothes-peg off the choke knob....
    
    It was actually tested on one occasion - worked great!
    
    Richard
    

    Most car alarm immobilisers work by putting a relay between the low
    tension connection on your coil, or between the live feed from your
    ignition swith to the coil. You could easily substitute this idea with
    a switch although you would need to hide it pretty well. In my opinion
    the best kind of immobilisers are the large key type which disconnect
    the main live feed from your battery. Your only problem is utilities
    like car radio etc which may lose their prestored stations. It is
    pretty difficult for a thief to carry cable man enough to jump the
    switch, if fitted well a jump lead will not do.
    				Brian.

    Thanks for all the replies.
                              
    I like the idea of isolating the fuel pump as it sounds more
    straightforward than hacking around with the ignition system.  In my
    driver's manual it warns that messing with the ignition should only be
    left to dealerships due to the damage that could be done.  Also, if I
    do mess with the ignition, I don't know that I may break/disturb with
    regards to the existing alarm/immobiliser system (Factory fitted
    Vauxhall Astra).
    
    However, the one main drawback to switching the fuel pump is that of
    starving the engine of petrol.  It's fuel injected 16V with Catalytic
    converter and I thought I read somewhere that 'running out of fuel'
    could really damage the cat converter????
    
    Another poser is, if I switch the low tension wiring to the coil, will
    I run into problems with my coded radio? ie. will it lose all it's
    memory (security code included)?
                                 
    At the moment, the fuel pump sounds the easier but I am unsure as to the 
    damage to the cat should fuel not get through.  However, I feel a switch 
    to the ignition would be more secure as there would be no way the car 
    would start at all.
    
    Your thoughts/comments are appreciated as until I get my car uniquely 
    secured, I'll be worrying about it constantly.
    
    Cheers,
    
    Kris

    
    
    	Since having a car stolen, I have used a fuel pump switch as an
    immobilizer.
    
    This has been shown to work on two occasions, once when a thief broke
    into the car, broke the column steering lock, hot wired the ignition
    and still couldn't start the car - at least I only had to replace the
    column shrouds.
    
    And once when I left it 'engaged' when a garage was coming to collect
    the car for servicing. They messed around for an hour before finding
    the switch.
    
    My current car has a VSL alarm fitted, using the fueld pump as the
    immobilization, so the 'professionals' don't seem too worried about the
    catalyst. Although unless you forget that the pump is turned off, it is
    only in extreme circumstances that any possible damage could occur.
    
    On my current car I think the fuel pump is used as disconnecting power
    to the engine management system makes it forget all of its diagnostic
    information, and as it is a distributorless system there is no low
    tension lead to switch.
    
    	Grahan

    I think the danger to the cat is from running over-rich. This causes a
    lot of unburnt fuel to be present in the exhaust. This is burnt in the
    cat, which overheats. I am not sure how this happens if you run out of
    fuel, possibly repriming and bleeding the fuel system results in excess
    fuel going through the engine (may be fuel and air mixed together
    confuses the engine management computer). The other possibility is that
    when the engine is running out of fuel (hot engine, hot cat) it
    continues to run with a mixture of air/fuel for a short while. During
    this period the exhaust might be alternately rich and lean, resulting
    in rapid temperature changes in the cat.
    
    In any case disabling the fuel pump should not cause a problem - you
    wont introduce air into the fuel system, and the engine will simply be
    pushing cold air with no fuel through the cold cat.
    
    If you disconnect the battery you will need to reenter the security
    code to the radio to make it work again. Make sure that you know the
    correct code before you do this ! Just fiddling with the ignition
    circuit shouldn't have any effect.
    
    Andrew

Hi, 
My suggestion is to place the switch inside something that is pliable so 
can be discretely prodded to actuate the switch, something that won't 
discolour with repeated usage.

I see two options for interrupting the fuel-pump supply.

First is the afforementioned high current supply wire from the relay to the 
actual pump.  The second is to interrupt the low current signal pulse from 
the coil low-tension to the pump relay, it is used to signal to the relay 
that the engine is still running and has not stalled.

Interrupt this signal and the relay clicks off after about 6 seconds, 
thinking the engine is stalled, it wont even click in and start without the 
signal.

I went for this latter option because I'd rather interrupt a low current 
feed.  I also bought a dual-pole switch (DPST?) and wired the single wire 
through both separate contact pairs, so that if one contact fails, the 
engine won't cut out.  

The downside of this if the thief pulls out the correct relay for the 
fuel-pump and fuses the two current contacts, the pump runs regardless.  
This is a common temporary fix for a faulty fuel-pump relay!  I know this 
because I used to remove said relay before I fitted the switch and 
eventually caused a bad joint in the relay's internal circuit board.

Please keep all this in the family.
Rob.

    Hmm interesting comments.
    
    I think I might go for the switch on the relay - pump circuit as this
    does seem the most difficult for the would-be thief to bypass.
    
    Now to locate the fuel pump and grab a copy of Maplins!
    
    Never having done this sort of thing before, is there anything I should
    be looking out for? ie. will I need a certain type of switch (what is 
    a contact rating?)
    
    Kris

A contract rating of at least as big as the fuel-pump fuse rating.

I'd advise you to solder the wires to the switch, and hold the switch 
contacts with some pointed nosed pliers to dissapate the heat so it doesn't 
ruin the inside as you do it.

Rob.

Re:.28

I too have a 16v Astra (2.0 GSi), and as a temporary solution I just pull the 
fuel injection fuse (no:2 if my memory serves me rightly) - this seems to work 
well, giving the impression the car is out of fuel. However this is just an 
additional delaying tactic as by this time the thief has already got past two 
alarms.

I have also been considering an additional switch, I like the idea about 
consealing it behind something pliable (reply .32) - this would need to be a 
push switch - another idea I came up with is to buy a switch from an optional
extra - like heated seats and use that. I suppose the current rating needs to be
a consideration here. 

Let me know what you end up doing...

Andy

    
    Instead of using a hidden switch underneath the dash etc. which a would
    be thief might look for, how about this option. Use a switch identical
    to any of the front panel switches i.e. fog lamp switch, heated rear
    window switch etc. and leave it in full view - no thief would think that
    one of those switches was actually the engine imobilisation switch.
    
    Martin...
    

On the contrary Martin,

I used to think it was a neat idea.

Now I think that's the first place they look.  I've heard of a few cases 
where all the dash switches were reversed trying to get the alarm to stop.

Rob.