Conference terri::cars_uk

    
    Secondhand estates depreciate less rapidly than saloons.
    
    Audi 100/200 worth a look. Reasonably quick, if one of the larger engined or
    turbo versions. MPG high for the size/class of vehicle. 
    
    Citroen ZM good, but expensive & not many around secondhand. Worth
    having a look at large hatchbacks -- my Mazda 626 GT carries as much as
    many estate cars (eg literally half a ton of magazines & books at a
    time, has carried several motorcycles -- 1 at a time, in large lumps)
    
    Mazda 626 Estate also worth a look, with the 16v engine. 7 seats, &
    quickish (0-60 approx 8secs, 130mph, quiet). There really are a lot of
    good cars around these days ....
    
    Large car, diesel, & good performance are mutually exclusive in my
    book, even with a turbo diesel. OK on top speed but lousy 50-90
    performance if car heavily loaded, just when you need oomph for overtaking.
    
    
    Worth an hour at Blackbushe. Chances are you must have an open mind on
    manufacturer, but a clear spec in mind. You'll see some good
    alternatives for reasonable money. Decide whether you need load space,
    people space, high internal reconfiguration flexibility.
    
    I wouldn't ever buy a Volvo, but some might .... Some Mercs also OK --
    highish purchase price, but low depreciation. I often drive a 280TE, &
    that's not a bad wagon.
    
    Colin

    
    The Montego estates also have received much praise.
    
    However, like a Volvo, it depends whether estate-capabilities are more
    important than street-cred! :^)
    
    Mark

My favourite estate is the Subaru Legacy 4WD Turbo.

Dave :-)

    You might also want to thimk about a Carlton estate. I drive a 2.0 CDX
    which costs approx 2600 on the scheme (NB figure is two years old).
    Admittedly its not particularly fast by my standards (previous cars
    include Saphire Cosworth, Thema Turbo, BX 16V). But to take your
    requirements in order:
    
    Lots of room for junk/Extra seats...
    	Well, its got loadsa room (large estate area, roof rails, and seats
    5 in comfort in the main passenger area) - but no extra seats.
    
    Good Stereo or potential for good sterio....
    	Blaupunkt Memphis and CD player are standard. Six speakers. Sound
    is reasonable (*much* better than BX 19!!) but could be improved by
    changing the speakers - especially bass.
    
    Not too expensive.....
    	What is expensive for one person is not necessarily expensive for
    another. As I said, this is/was (2yrs ago) 2600 on the scheme including
    auto transmission (the only extra) It's not currently quoted so I can't
    say what it would be today.
    
    Good mpg.....
    	Couldn't tell you, Squire - I have never in my life taken any
    notice of mpg figures. The only thing I can say is that I probably
    travel around 400 mile per week and fill up once a week (70 litre tank)
    at a cost of around 25 squid. In case you haven't guessed, it runs on
    unleaded.
    
    Hard to break into.....
    	Well, its got a deadlock and was reckoned to be one of the more
    thiefproof production vehicles by sundry motoring magazines, Which etc.
    Estate area has removeable/slideable soft cover.
    
    Comfortable seating......
    	Yeah - its definately got this - front seats include height
    adjustment. Centre armrest/cassette stowage for front. Conversion to full
    estate is easiest I've ever seen. Rear seat has 50/50 split.
    
    Goes fast.....
    	Do you mean top speed or acceleration. Top speed is around 120 -
    but it takes a while to get there. Acceleration is fair - comparable
    with most things of its size but definately not a hot hatch beater.
    4 speed Auto transmission has three change-up point settings: normal,
    winter (takes off in 3rd gear to avoid wheelspin on ice etc - drops
    back to normal automatically at 25 mph), and sports (change-up point
    shifted to 6000rpm - definately makes a difference!!!).
    
    Other useful (standard) bits include ABS, cruise control, headlamp
    height and adjustment from dashboard, suspension leveling
    adjustment (automatic sla available at extra cost), and one-shot
    windows on all doors.
    
    Steve
    

    Just a quick plug for the volvo's. My parents went through a succession
    of them. They were worked very hard, were very reliable - with one
    exception - they had a reasonable turn of speed for such a big car and
    very good brakes. Lots of room inside and very easy to drive on long
    journeys.
    But parts can be expensive.
    
    
    Jason.

    I've just been through this same exercise. I currently have an '85
    Granada Estate, which is huge. I too dislike Volvos, and I'm not at all
    keen on Japanese cars.I discounted the larger people-carriers on the
    grounds of price, and the Discovery, which I liked, as its fuel
    consumption is very high, even the diesel one.
    
    I looked at the Granada, and was unhappy with the engine options. 2.0i
    or 2.9i. The former underpowered, and the latter too thirsty. There is
    no diesel option. I then decided to look at a Sierra, and noticed that
    in terms of internal size, performance, economy and cost, the Escort
    was better. Once I'd decided that the Escort was almost big enough, and
    that the Granada was too small internally to justify the compromise
    its price, performance and economy required, it changed my whole
    perspective. This was partially because the old Granada was/is huge,
    and even the new one is quite a bit smaller internally.
    
    Since then I've looked at and measured the VW Passat, the Opel
    Omega/Vauxhall Carlton and the Pug 405 estates. The first was small,
    the second huge, and the third as big as the Granada estate (shorter
    with seats down, same with them up, and significantly higher). After
    the old Granny, fuel economy was an issue, so I looked at turbo
    diesels. The Passat (non-turbo) was slow, thirsty and not too
    recommended by some I asked. The Opel was slow, thirsty and expensive.
    The Pug turbo diesel came out trumps on all counts. It's big enough for
    three children, has a large boot, does 108mph, and 0-60 in 12 secs.
    Fuel economy is magnificent.
    
    I also liked the Audi 2.5Tdi and it would be the car to buy if I had
    the money. It's far the fastest, and most economical, but boot space
    is not as big as the Opel and the Pug. However, it's a good looker,
    and, I think, the best estate on the market at the moment.
    
    If your main criteria are as mine, size enough for three children and
    sundry baggage, economy, and reasonable performance, then I think that
    for the money, the Pug 405 turbo diesel is hard to beat. which is why
    I'm buying one.
    
    Laurie.

    .5, yours is a lease-Carlton, I decided to buy a 3YO instead.
    
    I studied the 2nd-hand market for big estates as I tow/have
    dog/children etc.
    
    My shortlist was Volvo 240/740, Mercedes T230/280, Carlton 2.0i.
    
    I chose the best example I could find, which happened to be the
    Carlton, which had all the features in .5 + limited-slip diff.
    I've driven through the Alps with bikes/windsurfers/caravan & 4 people
    & never found any problems with power. Acceleration may not be
    rocket-like, but it is respectable. My only regret is that unlike
    Volvo/Mercedes, there is no 3rd row-of-seats option specifically
    available. The seats are very comfortable on long/short journeys.
    Like the Volvo, you get all-disks,( vented front ), & drum handbrake.
    
    Carltons depreciate massively from year 0-3. & like Volvo's can be
    bought cheaper from non-agents. This is why I bought a 3YO.
    Fuel is about 30mpg, oil consumption too low to measure, it goes from
    change to change without top-up. Tyre-life 20-35,000.
    
    Reliability : 104,000 miles, only service items replaced ( exhaust,
    thermostat, pads, belts, oil & filters). Cam belt failure believed
    destructive, but if changed ontime, no problem (cost 40 pound fitted).
    
    Mercedes depreciation slows down at the 8YO stage, i.e. they hold
    their value better.
    

    
    Well I went through the same thought process as the base noter 2.5
    years ago. A mandatory requirement was extra seats. Pecking order on
    car scheme at the time was (by price)....
    
    Renault Savannah	3rd fron facing row of seats. NO sunroof option.
    			Sunroof was another mandatory for me. Also very
    			plasticy trim. Also, with the 3rd row of seats the
    			standard 2nd row was swapped out for a cheaper,
    			thinner bench.
    
    Montego Estate	Option on 3rd row and all extras thrown in.
    
    Volvo 240 Estate	A real bargain with 3rd row. But too much tax (2.1
    			litre). Also high consumption compared to others.
    
    Space Wagon		3rd row standard but much too utility.
    
    Mazda 626		3rd rear facing row. Nice but getting expensive.
    
    Volvo 740 Estate	Ideal but too expensive for me.
    
    Renault Espace	Cheap base model but extra seats a fortune.
    
    I ended up with a Montego 2.0SL so trading down from a BMW was a bit of
    a culture shock. HOWEVER, it has to be said that 36,000 miles later it
    has proved to be the most reliable (ie 100%) company car I've had
    (including the BMW). It is superbly well designed if lacking in quality
    of implementation (specifically trim). It is fast if driven hard and
    returns about 32 to the gallon on average. Suffers from wind noise (due
    to poor trim I suspect). It is, in effect, a VOLVO copy but built to a
    lower standard (and price).
    
    I suspect Rover will discontinue them shortly and they'll be foolish if
    they don't replace it with something comparable. I can't see any of the
    Rover 4xx series being 'estateable' to the same degree as the Montego.
    
    Richard
     

    
    Rover have (according to A&M) a 400 Estate in the planning. No doubt
    the forthcoming 600 will be estatised if demand if judged to be
    sufficient.
    
    Mark

    
>>                  -< Mark, did you *really* say 'estatise'? >-
    
    No. I said estatised (should it have been estatized?). :^)
    
    Mark

    Interesting. No-one mentionned the Toyota Previa. I tested one with a
    friend of mine who finally bought an Espace. The Previa is well done
    but 2 big problems:
    
    	- weight (1800kg)
    	- noise  (terrible)
    
    The engine would be OK if it had the Espace weight to carry. The engine
    position (below floor) is a good idea but it produces a terrible noise
    (reverb chamber effect).

    Re -2
    
    Sorry, when I was talking about room in the back I was talking at the
    very back ie the estate.  We used our sons foldaway buggy as the
    benchmark.  It fits both across and down the estate in the VW but
    doesnt fit lengthwise in the 405.  the 405 appears larger because it
    doesnt have the prominent back wheel arches of the Passat.  Id say the
    405 is 2-3 inches shorter of floorspace in the estate than the VW, and
    about the same width.
    
    The Espace would have been ideal for us but the fuel ecomomy is worse
    than the Passat, and money is tight.  There is a Diesel version of the
    Espace due in the UK around Feb 93, which could be interesting if the
    price is right.
    
    Paul

    Nissan are also bringing out an Espace type people carrier (seats up to
    8). Should be available from jan 93, with petrol and diesel engines. Called the
    Serena. Price supposed to be competitive (less than) espace etc - c
    14-18k pounds - will that be about 1500 - 1900 on thescheme?

    The Serena has been in Singapore market since June.  That make it
    probably the only car we can buy before the UK market.
    
    I took a look at the car back then, but didn't like it because of it's
    engine location.  Like many vans, it is located right below the front
    pasenger seat.  Its external appearance is also quite unsual.  Probably
    will take awhile to get use to it.
    
    After some four months of looking around, and many ponderings, I have
    paid the deposit for an ESPACE (2.0 RT version with 7 seats).  Along
    the way, I looked at Mitsubishi Spacewagon (we only get the
    1.8 GLX auto),  VOLVO 940 Estate (1.9 Turbo auto).  I would
    have chosen the VOLVO if my priority is not to have a proper 7-seater. 
    Also, I suspect that the 940 will be replaced by 850 when the estate
    version is available by 1993 Spring.

    I paid the deposit on the Peugeot 405 1.9 GLDT estate this weekend. We
    tried the back with the three children (including a baby seat) and it
    was pronounced roomy. The (8 miles old) engine was magnificent, and far
    faster than my 2.0 auto Granada. I was very, very impressed with the
    performance, particularly 0-60 mph acceleration and acceleration from
    80mph and up. In fact, it pulled strongly from rest, until I eased off
    at 90-odd, (it was still pulling very well). It drove at 25-30 mph in
    5th happily, at around 1100 rpm, I did have to change down to
    accelerate though ;^) The gearbox was nice too, but a little stiff
    (hardly surprising considering its age).
    
    It was quiet, handled nicely; all-round, I was most impressed. If you
    don't need 7 seats, go for this one. I've revised my views on the
    Discovery being my vehicle of choice for a seven-seater. I drove one
    (tdi) this weekend as well, and in terms of economy, and particularly
    performance, it pales into insignificance compared to the Peugeot. I
    drove it almost immediately after the 405, and found that in
    comparison, it wallowed all over the place, was noisy, and ran like a
    dog. It had less storage aft of the back seats too. There will
    undoubtedly be a replacement for the 7-seater Peugeot 505, the estate
    version of the 605, which hopefully will be around when I *do* need 7
    seats. I can wait...
    
    Laurie.

    There is a good article in the Nov issue of WHAT CAR magazine that talk
    about estates (eg. VOLVO) and MPVs (eg. ESPACE).

    The following reproduced without permission Auto Express "Guide to
    Estate cars, Off-roaders and MPVs" Winter 1992.
    
    Car		       Load length *  Load width +
    
    Passat GL TD	68/41.5	37
    Pug 405 GRDT/GTDT	63/42		44 	NB. This is the old model
    Montego Est		66.5/41.5	36.8
    Primera LX/SLX	86/46		34
    Granada Est		78.4/42.6	43.9
    Tempra Est		63.4/40.4	41.3
    BX Est		67/41.3		43.9
    XM Est		70.7/44.9	43.9
    Volvo 940 Est	77/45		42
    Carlton Est		79/46		44
    
    * Max rear seat flat/Min rear seat up
    + Min between wheelarches		
    
    Dave