Conference 7.286::home_work

    
    About pressure treated wood.  I know for a fact that they (the
    builders) didn't use it on my deck.  What can I do to help make
    it last longer??  It is stained right now with the same stuff they
    stained the house with.
    
    						.dave.

    Are there spaces between the floorboards (1/4" or so)?  If not,
    take up the floor and space the boards out so there is a free flow
    of air between them.  Otherwise, the cracks will hold moisture and
    lead to fast rotting.  Boards that can dry out will last pretty
    well on their own, although a little wood preservative obviously
    won't hurt either.  If you do take up the floor, you might think
    about putting 2"-3" wide strips of 60# roofing felt on top of the joists
    before you nail the boards back down, the idea being to keep water
    from soaking into the tops of the joists and rotting them.  Floorboards
    aren't too bad to replace, but the joists start getting into the
    catgeory of major overhaul.

    Steve
    

    re .1  If you don't have any felt around and don't want to buy a
    roll you call buy a small roll of felt that is about 4 in wide under
    the name "joist tape".  Also, where can one get something heavier
    than 15# felt?  Places I have tried (local lumber yards, Sommerville
    Lumber) don't carry anything heavier.  I have used Cuprinol like
    products on my deck and porch when constructed and haven't had a
    hint of rot over their life so far (6-7) years. I also used Joist
    tape as well.  The joists though were done with pressure treated
    lumber but the floorboards only with common spruce.
    
    Marty
    

    
    Good, I'll do it this summer.  There are spaces between the floorboards
    now, and I'll probably just lift each board and put the felt betwixt
    them.  I also noticed that they didn't use galvanized nails - something
    else that MUST be changed.  Since I'd like to make the deck a little
    bigger, this will be about 80% labor (my own)...
    
     thanks.
    						.dave.

Another major cause of rot is where two floorboards are butt-ended together and
nailed into the same joist.  You have two end grain surfaces butted against each
other, and the grain is further opened up by the nails.  This is almost always 
where rot starts.  If at all possible, when building a new deck, try to butt 
floorboards over open space, with about an 1/8" gap between them.  An easy way 
to do this (if you are using 5/4 decking) is to size your joists for 12" OC 
spacing.  Instead of butting floorboards on top of a joist, let them both hang 
halfway into the space between joists, leaving a slight gap.  5/4 decking is 
strong enough to support the 5 1/4" end, and the end grain is then in open air 
where it can dry out.

Paul

Also, I'm a bit leery about using pressure treated wood where it will be in 
human contact.  I've heard a few rumblings about it not being totally safe, and
any discovery of things that are very dangerous are always preceded by 
rumblings.  It may prove to be a false alarm, but better safe than sorry.
For joists and support timbers it's great, but I'd never use it for, say, a deck
surface, or even a railing.  I'd pay the extra money for a naturally rot-
resistant wood such as cedar, fir, or redwood.

Paul

    re: .2
    Try asking for 60# smooth roll roofing (without mineral surface)
    instead of 60# felt.  It should get you what you're looking for.
    There may be a difference between "60# felt" and 60# smooth roll
    roofing", I'm a little hazy on the exact terminology.  In my own
    mind I consider them to be the same thing, but that may not be
    strictly corect and the places you asked may have taken you literally.
    
    Steve

    re: .7
    
    Of course, you won't want to actually USE the scraps for kindling
    if they're pressure treated.

    -joet (safety first, whenever convenient)

Can anyone recommend a source for deck plans/ideas (as for a house).
I want to put a new deck on the house but for me its easier to look at
ideas put to paper and say "yeah, that's what I want" then trying to
design from scratch.

pj

    I believe I have several "workbench" magazine plans in the shop..I'll
    look tonight ...can you send me your mail address and if sucessfull
    I'll send them to you.
    
    I am the opposite from you in that it's easier for me to get approx
    dimensions lay it out in my head and start construction that way
    it seems to go together better and easier. The last deck I put up
    I had a friends plans it seemed like I was spending more time 
    mentally replicating the design, looking at plans, than putting the dam
    thing together.
    
    adeu
    displaced canuck..cut twice still too short

 Sunrise books has a whole series for the do-it-yourself crowd.  The
 volume on building decks was excellent.  I've probably lent it away
 but I'll check tonight and try to get you a better pointer.

 JP

  Sorry -- as it turns out, we never owned that book.  My wife got it from
  the library.  So I suggest you call some bookstores.  Any book that can
  be found in the Epsom, NH public library *can't* be that hard to locate...

  JP

    greetings
    
    I found several mags with references to deck plans from the simple
    to the "awesome". If you'll send me your mail address I'll send
    you the copies.
    
    canuck

    
    In a discussion last night, someone mentioned that if a deck in
    NH is larger than XxY then the owner will be assesed at a higher
    rate because his deck is bigger?  
    
    Is this a bunch of do-do, or is NH really the kind of state I'm
    starting to dislike....
    
    $SET FLAME=HIGH
    
    Whats a Condo owner to do?  I live in a detached condo (a split   
    to be exact), I get taxed at the same rate as Arnold E Homeowner,  
    and yet the city doen't plow my street and pick up my trash.  Are 
    we being dumped on or what?  Perhaps we can get enough condo owners
    together and tell the city/state that we aren't gonna pay our property
    taxes unless they are either lowered or they start doing trash/plowing.
    
    						.dave.

    Hi,
    
    I'm Arnold Homeowner.  And, like most others I know, the city does
    not pick up my garbage and they do not plow my driveway.
    
    I don't think you have anything to flame about with your garbage
    services.  As for the roads...  I believe that the developer/home-
    owner association (for any development, whether condo or regular
    housing development) must formally request that their roads be
    taken over by the state/town.  As a condition of acceptance for
    the request, the developer/association must make the roads to
    specification.  I do not know of any condo complex that has standard
    width roads and I doubt that the underbed would meet spec either.
    
    So, you can do something about the roads, just be prepared to pay
    for the road improvements.  I doubt that holding your taxes would
    do much.
    
    Cheers,
    jeff
    

    
    Ok, I stand subdued and understanding.  Now on with the count down.
    
    What about that silly deck law?  Anybody heard of that?
    
    						.dave.
    

    CHECK THE UPRIGHT SUPPORT POSTS AND MAKE SURE THAT THEY ARE SITTING
    ON CONCRETE (EITHER BLOCKS OR POURED PILINGS. IF THEY ARE IN CONTACT
    WITH DIRT YOU WILL HAVE ROT PROBLEMS. ALSO IF WOOD IS ALREADY STAINED
    THEN IT MAY BE DIFFICULT TO APPLY WOOD PRESERVATIVE OVER IT, IN
    THAT CASE IT MIGHT MAKE SENSE TO APPLY MORE STAIN ON A REGULAR (EVERY
    TWO YEARS) BASIS TO KEEP THE WOOD SEALED OFF. DAVE, COME BY THE
    HOUSE AND TAKE A LOOK AT HOW WE PUT UP OUR NEW DECK LAST YEAR -
    SHOULD GIVE YOU SOME IDEAS.
    

    I have a deck off the back of the house that I am going to enclose
    this summer.  The basement is a walkout type so the deck is raised
    about 10 feet from the ground.  The present supports are 4X4's embedded
    in a concrete slab under the deck.  The deck is about 12 years old
    and there has been no cracking or movement of the concrete so
    everything is still pretty solid.  I want to reinforce the 4X4's
    to take the extra weight by nailing another 4X4 to the current
    supports.  The new 4X4's would sit on the pad.  Is this sufficient
    or should the additional supports be embedded in concrete also?
    Oh, the deck is 12X22
                                                                   
    Thanks,
    
    George

    I dont know what 'extra weight' the 4x4 is supposed to take. Nailing
    a second 4x4 alongside wont transfer any load to the new piece-
    it will require the new one somehow getting under a beam that is
    carrying the weight.
    
    You might also look at the weight carrying capacity of a 4x4. If
    it is purely in compression a 4x4 will carry almost the entire weight
    of a house- of course its a bit tricky to balance an entire house
    on one 4x4 so additional posts are usually used, but NOT because
    they are needed to 'carry the weight'. 
    
    

    I checked my tables last night, Fir is rated to carry 1200 pounds
    per sq in in compression, including a 2.5x safety factor. Therefore
    a 4x4 (actually a 3.5x3.5) with 12.25 sqin will carry 14,700 lbs.
    
    Dead weight of floors can be estimated at 7 lbs/sqft. Design load
    for first floor living spaces is usually set at 40 lb/sqft. Your
    12x22 room will present a max load of 12,408 lbs. Assuming there
    is more than 1 4x4 under the current porch you should be in fine
    shape already. 
    
    In this day of litigation over everything, I suppose I should add
    some disclaimer here-- Im not a structural engineer, so nothing
    said above should be taken as more than my opinion.
    
    

    Yeah, wood is wonderful stuff, and incredible in compressive strength.
    
    I believe I've read, however, that 'pure' compressive loads are
    a bit hard to come by.  Any imperfection whatsoever in top or
    bottom surfaces, or even in the timber itself, can translate into
    a bending component.
    
    For this reason, an additional set of specs is used to figure
    adequate post sizing - something like a minimum limit on the
    smaller post dimension (if the post isn't square - and this
    minimum is independent of the larger dimension, as a bending
    load could occur at right-angles to it), plus a factor that
    increases as the (unsupported) height of the post increases
    (similar to the increase in floor joist required to span a
    greater distance).
    
    As I remember, if the post is square and less than around 10'
    tall, then if it will handle the compressive load it should
    also be OK for the anticipated bending component.  Otherwise
    (very un-square posts and/or higher rises), considering the
    purely compressive component may result in an inadequate post.
    
    		- Bill
    

    Also make sure that there is the proper flashing between the house
    and the deck.  Otherwise water and dirt will collect there and things
    will begin to rot.  If you have a roof that drips or drains directly
    onto the deck, install gutters.  Those little rain drops falling
    from a height of 10' - 20' will do an amazing amount of damage to
    you floor boards.
    
    -al

    	I'm about to put in a support for a deck.  Does anyone know
    how deep I should go to get below the frost line?  I live in Nashua,
    NH.  Thanks
    
    George

    
    The tubes that are typically used are marked (usually).  I believe
    that four feet into the ground for decks is the norm.
    
    						.dave.
    

    I live in Townsend, MA.  I went down 3 ft. on a deck I put in 2
    years ago and haven't had any problems.
    
    Steve

    Nashua CODE requires 4 feet deep.  You do have a building permit,
    don't you!

   	After one week of home ownership I'm ready to tackle the first
    big project.  The farmer's porch on my Queen Anne Victorian is sagging.
    The lattice work, steps, and beam are rotted.  The support posts
    are sliding off of the footings.  I need some advice and pointers
    to information on how best to fix the porch.  Ideally I would like
    to talk to someone who had done it already.
    	My current plans are to jack up the old beam and put in a new
    6x6 pressure treated beam.  I'm not sure if I should use 4x4's for
    supports or go with small steel columns.  How deep should I
    pour the cement for the footings?  Can I just bury a filled cement
    block?  Thanks in advance for any info.

    
    					=Ralph=

    I have a victorian duplex with a large porch - 40' across the front,
    a circular corner and another 20' down the side.  I've completely
    rebuilt it except for the railings (soon to be done).  For the
    supports, I poured new footings with anchor bolts and used teco
    style post anchors (they keep the post off the footing with a u-shaped
    metal piece and have nailing flanges on all four sides).  I also
    used a variety of teco type metal fastening devices on other parts
    of the porch (post caps, joist hangers).  The original support columns
    were brick.  I removed the bricks until I reached a square stone
    footing and poured my footing on top of that.  Needless to say,
    I used pressure treated lumber for the framing.  I used 1x4 fir
    flooring rather than the  thicker and wider pressure treated flooring
    in an attempt to keep the same look to the porch. I coated the top
    of the floor  joists with roofing cement and covered that with tar
    paper in an attempt to prevent the rot that usuallly starts in the
    flooring at a joist (I'm not sure if that was necessary - it might
    be overkill.  It does make the flooring you take up unuseable because
    of the tar stuck to the bottom of it!).  I put up fiberglass screening
    before the cedar lattice for the facade under the porch - the screening
    seems to keep the bugs and leaves out.  I used pine for the trim
    on the facade - use clear pine or the the knots will show!  I routed
    the edges on trim pieces to make it a little interesting.  The most
    challenging part was the semi-circular section at the corner.  I
    used built-up plywood on the outer edges to get the support for
    the curved facade.  The cedar lattice is flexible enough to wrap
    around curves and I kerfed the back of the pine trim and soaked
    it to get it to follow the porch curve.  
    
    I've come to two important conclusions about rebuilding old porches-
    It will take much longer than you possibly could imagine  and
    You might as well plan on replacing everything - you will have to
    anyway!  (I started with the intention of replacing some rotted
    flooring)
    
    
    Kevin
    
                                                                 
    

    Try your local library for back issues of Fine Homebuilding as they
    have had articles on porch/deck repaid/renovations also. Kevins
    answer sounds like he did it the RIGHT way as opposed to the usual
    "try to save a buck on this job" way that so many people use. Any
    extra cost incurred on the job will also result in a better, longer
    lasting job in the long run. This is too big a job to have to do
    it again in a few years. 

    A clarification on Kevins note: 
    
    'Soon to be added' is a relative term. His porch has been finished
    for more than a year now. The railing is still "soon to be finished'.
    I guess he's waiting to put it up so he can get the airplane out
    of his living room window without interfernce from the railing,
    or maybe because he's going to build the airplane wing on the porch!
                        
    Boy, do these projects have a way of extending 'soon'
    :-)
    
    Ron

    I'm in the process of rebuilding my porch, with some professional
    help so it doesn't take me five years to get it done.  Porch supports:
    I used sonotube (sp?) filled with concrete, 4' down with a poured
    footing at the bottom of the hole.  On top of those I'm planning
    to stack concrete patio blocks until I get to the approximate height
    I need (about a foot for most places, give or take) and then shim
    with wood.
    Pressure-treated lumber, of course.  .1's ideas of tar, roofing
    paper, etc. are all worth doing.  Space the floorboards about 1/4"
    apart so air can circulate around them; put them tight together,
    and water will get trapped between them and start rot quickly.
    Yes, do it RIGHT - the first time!  Hope for the best and be prepared
    for the worst.  
    
    Steve

In reference to sonatubes, they are the ONLY way to go!  If you haven't heard
of them they are waxed tubes (they look like BIG toilet paper tubes).  They come
in various diameters ranging from around 4 inches up to over a foot.  I have 
used 8 and 12 inch tubes (the 12 inchers take a LOT of concrete).  A couple of
things to note if you use them is that as you fill them up, be sure to tamp down
the concrete as it will form air pockets if you don't.

Also, as far is digging the holes go, if you have nice clean dirt, I guess a
post hole digger will do fine, but if not...

I once rented a 12 inch power auger.  Cost under $20 (probably closer to $15)
to dig about a dozen holes (though I'm sure you won't need as many).  I had
LOTS of rocks and it took me a whole day to dig the holes.  Without it it
probably would have taken a week or more!  Just one more way to make a hard job
easier...

-mark

Just completed last month:

Renovation of wrap around porch of 102 year old Victorian.

Symptoms were:

Sagging porch deck, beams with ant infestation,sagging and warped floorboards
lattice work crumbling.

The roof was and still is in excellent shape, the porch columns were ok
except the lowermost 2 inches which were soft (water damage)

The porch is L-shaped 35+26 ft long and 6 foot deep. The average height of
porch floor above grade is 4 ft.

The remedy:

replace all of the lower porch with a brickfaced concrete block structure and
tile the floor.

The bid:
Asked for bids and got only one response from a total of 6 contractors
contacted (4 showed up to measure , one declined outright and 2 of the four
did not want to bid ).
The single bid was 6200 $US. This did not include the tile and laying of it
for the porch floor. What it basically was was ripping out old porch, digging
trenches for foundation, build concrete block wall to height of porch floor,
face with bricks, fill cavity between basement wall of house and concrete block
wall with stone and pour a 3-4 inch concrete slab on top.

Well, 6200 is a lot of bucks and I had no reference so I started calling
various building material suppliers for quotes on material costs. For the labor
content I sort of extrapolated from a job done 2 years ago building a
fieldstone perimeter wall.

Well I came up with 2000$ in material cost including delivery to my driveway
and 2500 dollars in (reasonable) labor charges. That meant that the contractor
would net almost 2000 on a coupla days work.

Well, we did it ourselves for 2500 $ including the purchase of a cement mixer,
it took 2.5 people 3 weeks to complete and the result is at least of as good a
quality as a contractor would deliver.

If anyone is interested in more details pls contact me after I come back
from vacation in midaugust.

Rudolf

      I have a sagging stoop also...~30' long 6' deep. Problem: both
    ends and the center of the porch are the same distance off the ground,
    but the areas in between sag about 2-3 inches. If the beams have
    been in that position for years, am i going to have to replace them?
    they're not rotted. Has anyone replaced tonge & groove flooring?
    How deep do I dig footings to go below frost line? Porches are
    new to me and this one scares me.... the house is about 70 years
    old... I've just redone the whole interior...floors, walls ,ceilings
    so I fell that i am handy enough to do it myself, but I'm just
    a bit unsure of the proper method.
    

    A new pressured treated deck was installed on my house.  The wood
    seems fairly "dry" now.  How long should I wait until I stain it?
    
    Also, during staining, is it necessary or beneficial to stain every
    piece of exposed wood, like the joists?
    
    -al

Since pressure treated wood is "supposed" to be good for something like 20
years, I would assume one's main reason for staining it is for looks rather
than protection.  If this is the case, stain whatever needs to be stained to
make it look good and don't bother with anything more!

-mark

    From what I understand pressure treated wood should not be painted
    or stained for about a year. 
    paul

1.  According to the folks who make Pressure Treated lumber, you should
    wait 6 to 9 months before staining. A good rule of thumb in to wait
    until the green color has bleached out.  I built a deck last summer
    and stained it this spring.
  
 2. You stain PTL for two reasons, one is to make it look nice. The
    other is to protect people and animals. There is diagreement on
    the toxicity of PTL, but everone agrees that you do not want bare
    skin (or paws) in frequent contact with the chemicals of PTL. So
    paint what looks good and what will be in contact with skin. [I
    stained my deck and painted a PTL bench (2 coats + primer).]
                                                                 
    Caution: Make sure the wood is cool when you stain.  I did mine
             late in the afternoon (because the stain can said not to
             stain while sun was hitting the deck) and the wood was
             too warm. As a result I have lap marks -- even though 
             I did two boards at a time the full 40' in length!
                                                               

    To preserve or not to perserve... pressure treated wood.
    
    I read note 382, I am still not sure to seal the PT wood deck that
    I completed yesterday. The dealer for the "wolmanized" pressure
    treated wood says to wait 6-9 months; the seller of the Thompson's
    Wood perservative says to do it now. My gut reaction is that the
    winter may do damage to the deck before the 6-9 months is up. I
    have $1400 invested plus the labour plus the sweat.
    
    I'm a transplanted Californian to Colorado Springs. What is the
    real scoop?
    
    /cal hoe

    I had been told the same thing - that one should wait for the PT
    wood to "age" before coating it with anything.  Theory being that
    the material won't soak into new PT lumber.  I repaired my deck
    last summer with a lot of PT lumber and stained it a couple of months
    later.  The deck has SW exposure and got a lot of HOT sun before
    I stained it, so it may have aged enough 'cause I didn't have any
    problem.
    
    Your best bet might be to try a little patch and see if the covering
    material (paint, stain or whatever) peels off after it had dried
    well.  If it doesn't peel, it's probably okay to finish.
    
    -Bob

    The people selling the stain suggest you do it now because if you
    wait 6 to 9 months they may miss the sale. I'd wait!

    When I built my deck and porch using P.T. for the sub-structure
    I waited for the surface to dry and then Cuprinoled it.  That was
    maybe two-three weeks after I put it up.  However, the only reason
    I did it that soon was so I could put down the walking surface (which
    is not P.T.).  I have left P.T. buried under rotting leaves on
    the ground for two years and have seen no adverse affects.  I don't
    know why exposure over the winter should bother it.
                                                        
    Marty
    

    I'm puzzled - why should PT wood need any kind of additional
    preservative treatment?
    
    Thanks in advance for enlightenment, Chuck

     There is no real reason to EVER seal Wolmanized wood. If it is
    guaranteed for 30 years against rotting when in ground contact it
    will certainly last a lot longer on a deck.
      There are two reasons why you should wait for at least a few months
    before putting any paint or stain on it.
    	1. The green color of the pressure treatment will normally show
    through a coat of stain or paint. Waiting a few months for the wood
    to age will considerably lighten the green color.
    	2. Pressure treated wood is not dryed after the pressure treatment
    and because it can't decay, lumber yards leave it in piles exposed
    to the weather where it will just stay wet. It needs some time after
    being put in place to dry, and we all know that there can be problems
    putting stain or paint over wet wood.
    					Kenny

    PT wood is treated to prevent rot and insect damage.  The main reason
    to seal your PT wood is to prevent ice/water damage.  Typically
    what happens is that as the wood dries, small cracks will develop.
    If water or snow gets in these cracks (or even the wood pores), it
    will expand/contract with the weather.  So your PT deck may be
    weakened structurally from this (way before it rots away).
    
    -al

re Note 511.5 by DRUID::CHACE:


>      There is no real reason to EVER seal Wolmanized wood. 

Remember that biological decay -- rot in all its forms -- is not the only
harm that can come to wood.  It can warp, and the grain can separate.
I believe that "pressure treating" only protects against biological hazards
-- it's a poison.

The company that makes Wolmanized wood (is it "Wolman"?) publishes a series
of pamphlets on how to use the stuff.  In one of their pamphlets they recommend
waterproofing for their wood.  I think that they even make a water-repellent
treatment, although I suspect that any good clear water sealer would do.

Bob

    RE 511.6 & .7
    
    That is my exact worry, damage from the snow and ice this winter.
    The general consenses is to leave the deck alone until next spring
    at the earliest. 
    
    About 511.7's reply; Bob, do you have experience with the wolmanized
    wood (other brands are OSMOSE, and SUNWOOD)? I heard from Van Smick
    who had a similiar deck put in last september and he says to hold
    off and let the wood age 6-9 months before treating the wood. Your
    response will help.
    
    thanks folks,
    
    calvin hoe

    I've read that new PT wood will not stain evenly. Wait a year or
    so and the wood will become pourous enough to give a even stain.

    I put up a PT deck and waited a year before staining.  I was told
    that PT NEVER needs staining or sealing.  Well, if I had to do it
    again, I'd only wait 3-6 months before staining as PT doesn't prevent
    checking or warping.  
    
    Steve
    

    PT wood comes in kiln dried, or wet.  If it's KD, then there's no
    reason to wait before staining it.  The place you buy the PT wood
    from will know if it's KD or not.  
    

     There is a very good reason for waiting, at least for a while.
    PT wood is quite green (in color)when new, and this color will show
    through many colors of stain. Thus affecting the color you are putting
    on.
      Waiting a while allows the sun to bleach the green color out.
    I have found from personal experience that 2-4 months is sufficient
    for this purpose.
    
    					Kenny

    I'm building a 12x16 deck between my house and a fence.  I want
    it as close to the ground as possilble and as such I'm using 2x8's
    for the sides, intending to put them right to the ground.  My joists
    will run the 16' length so that I can use 12' flooring with no
    staggering or cutting.  I bought 3 4x4x8's to cut in half and use
    for my 6 supports.  My question is, my supports will be ~3' into
    the ground, and the whole affair will be essentially lieing on the
    ground, should I use cement to set the supports?  All wood is PT.
    I've read all the other notes about decks but haven't seen anything
    addressing this type of setup. Reason for this is privacy.
     
    Any input would be much appreciated.
    
    Jim
    
    P.S. weather considerations: New England                               

    Funny you mentioned that, I just got thru setting 17 sonoco tubes
    for a deck and replacement porch.
    My setup is going to be a little different than what you described.
    The main deck is 20x16 supported by 9 10" concrete footings 3 feet
    in the ground. It will be freestanding. (not attached to the house)
    Along the 20 foot length will be 3 2X6s lagged together acting as
    beams. Across the 16 foot length will be the 2x8 floor joists (braced)
    and then 2x(2,2,6) for flooring. The porch will be 3/4s of a 8x16
    (ell shaped) identical to the main deck but with 4X6's and 8 inch
    footings instead of 3 2x6s and 10s respectively.
    I went with the footings because of the extra strength and weather/
    rot/insect resistance of concrete. Also, the footings are level,
    so there are no wooden posts, just big beams braced to big footings.
    Despite PTs claims, I like the fact that no wood will be in ground
    contact. I'll still be using PT thruout the decks though.
    Without a doubt, footings are a pain in the ass. It took me and
    another guy 16 hours to dig and level all of them, and they're not
    even poured yet! I't probably won't take that long the frame and
    floor it.
    You probably won't have any problems sinking 4x4s into the ground
    as far as strength goes, especially since you keeping it so low.
    They say you don't have to worry about rot, but I like to be safe.
    
    John
    

For what it's worth, I'd be terrified of having a deck sitting on or close to
the ground.  Although I admit to knowing little or nothing about termites, the
one thing everyone says is that if you cannot physically see your entire 
foundation you run the risk of missing an infiltration of termites (they build
mud tunnels from the ground up to the wood and it's this tunnel that is the
give-a-way that you're under attack).

Having a deck flush with the ground would make it very easy for termites to 
climb up on the underside and gain easy access to you delicious sill plate.

-mark

    One other thing. I'm not 100% on this, but shouldn't 12 foot lengths
    be staggered to accomodate shinkage/expansion? I remember you mentioned
    running the 12 foot lengths in one piece for flooring. Depending
    on where you get your stock, you also may have trouble getting all of
    them straight.
    
    John

    
    The April or May edition of Popular Science has an article about
    a deck that was built practically on the ground. The author used
    concrete piers that went right up to the beams. To install the piers,
    he dug a hole to the proper depth, then started filling with concrete.
    When he got close to ground level, he inserted a length of stove
    pipe, adjusted it to the proper height, then filled that with concrete
    (imagine the concrete must have been on the stiff side to accomplish
    this). (BTW, the deck floated on the piers, and was anchored only
    to the side of the house.)

    I have been building decks now for 2 years, and in the 15 or so
    that I done, I have always used 10" X 4' sonar tubes for supports,
    dig the holes at least 4' deep (check with building inspector to
    determine what depth is needed for your area) to prevent frost from
    moving them. back fill around the tube, and fill with a 3-6-9 mix
    of portland cement (that is 3 cement, 6 sand, 9 peastone).
    I like to leave at least 2-3" of sonar tube showing above the finish
    grade of the yard, I also use 1/2" threaded rod in about 12" sections
    which i bend into an l shape and insert into the cement leaving
    about 3/4-1" exposed, wipe exposed rod with a good coat of vaseline.
    
    wait about 2 days for the cement to cure, and use a standard 4x4
    post bracket.  I have had no problems with this type of set up,
    and one thing to remember is that an ounce of prevention is worth
    a pound of cure.  meaning spend the extra $$$ now to save expensive
    repair work later.  Frost can do some awful things to decks that
    have supports not dug deep enough or just sitting on the ground.
    
    As far as decking with 2x6's, I've used 16 footers on numerous
    occasions, and have had little or no trouble with them, sure some
    are a little curved, but this is easily treated by shaping them
    as they are nailed in.
    
    for beams I use 4x4 posts sandwiched between 2x8's with 1/2" carriage
    bolts. then I simply sit the joists on them and use rafter ties
    to tack them in.  below is a birds eye view of this sandwich.
    
             ___________"_________________________"________
                        "  2x8                    "
             -----------------------------------------------
                    |       |                 |       |
                    |  4x4  |                 |  4x4  |
                    |       |                 |       |
             -----------------------------------------------
                                                    2x8
             -----------"-------------------------"---------
                          \
                           \
                  1/2" x 8"  carriage (2 per 4x4)
    
    
    If you have any questions concerning footings, decking, or frame
    work, please feel free to call me at 226-7615  or mail TWOBOS::LAFOSSE
    
    

      I am considering getting a job done and don't know if it is 
    worth doing.  The side porch on my 70+ yr. old house is sagging
    somewhat because of the construction:
    
    |	
    |			2nd floor enclosed porch and family room
    |
    |__________		floor is sagging somewhat, built over old roof
     | |
     | |		3 colums supporting upper porch...
     | |	buckling 
    =====   <--- out here	... resting on porch railing!
    |  |
    |  |
    [===========	1st story floor
     I			steel pipes (rusty )
     =			ground
    
 	The problem is that the columns are now on a slight angle, and the
    boards that they rest on ( 2x8's?), that form the porch railing are 
    seperating slightly ( about 1/2 inch ), I assume because of the extra 
    weight when the upper porch was made into rooms.
      I want to redo the 2nd floor kitchen and make the sun porch into a 
    breakfast nook opening off of the kitchen.
      I got an estimate of $2300 to rebuild the lower porch and replace
    the columns with a more stable structure: columns running all the
    way down to the first floor porch beam.  This would include pouring
    concrete footings 4' down, and replacing the iron pipes with concrete
    filled iron pipes.
      I have had several people look at it and they have said it is
    not a hazard.  My questions are:
    1)  Should I get the work done on the porch?
    2)  If so should I do this before redoing the kitchen, since he
    is going to jack the upper porch approx. 1".
    3)  If I get the work done, are iron pipes sufficient to support
    all of that weight, or would concrete blocks or something else be
    better.
    4)  Is it necessary to do the whole porch with pressurized wood,
    or just the columns?
      Thanks,
      Linda

	Of course I can't really tell, but from your description, the current 
situation certainly does not sound particularly safe.  Several people said it 
was not a hazard, but what is keeping the railing from sagging out further, 
until eventually it buckles altogether and the whole thing comes crashing down?
Maybe I misunderstand the problem.

My answers to your questions:

    1)  Should I get the work done on the porch?

If my understanding is correct, definitely, and before next winter when snow 
loads will increase the weight on the structure.  If my understanding is 
incorrect, then still probably yes.

    2)  If so should I do this before redoing the kitchen, since he
    is going to jack the upper porch approx. 1".

Again, yes.  It would be a shame to put in a new kitchen with nice cabinets and 
then have them get twisted out of level by jacking up the porch.  A general 
rule of thumb in these situations is to do ALL jacking before doing ANY new 
work.

    3)  If I get the work done, are iron pipes sufficient to support
    all of that weight, or would concrete blocks or something else be
    better.

Depends how big the pipes are.  Lolly columns are plenty strong enough.  What 
diameter are the pipes?

    4)  Is it necessary to do the whole porch with pressurized wood,
    or just the columns?

If you're going to enclose the porch, then the only thing that would need to be 
pressurized would be whatever comes in contact with the ground or concrete pad.

Paul

    From the description, it sounds as though you should get it done.
    Your contractor's price doesn't ound all that bad if the problem
    is as large as it sounds, but this is indeed hard to determine from
    where I sit. As far as support goes, a frost wall with cement filled
    lolly columns every 8 or 10' sounds good to me. You may also consider
    6x6 pr. treated wood supports for a more rustic appearance. If your
    decking is going to be covered and relatively free of rain water,
    I'd say that pr. tr. lumber is probably not needed but, if it were
    me I'd at least use PT joist for the 1st floor framing (I assume
    you will have a dirt based crawl space under the 1st floor porch.
    The bottom line is you should first fix the major structural support
    system before you add the new whistles & bells in the proposed kitchen
    and breakfast nook.
    

    need some suggestions on putting up a three season porch...
    it will be fully enclosed, and insulated under. insulated ceilings
    eventually, for now just exposed rafters.
    
    What I would like suggestions on is posts to hold up the entire
    project, trying to decide whether to go with filled sonar tubes
    right up to the joistwork, or 4x4 post attached to the joist work...
    
    any suggestions...
    
    Fra
    

  One reason to go with posts is the fact that you can embed bolts in
  the concrete and use post anchors to hold the deck down.  You are probably
  not worried about the deck blowing away in a high wind but it is possible
  for a deck to warp so that one corner or one side gets lifted into the air.


  JP

    well its not really a deck, more like an addition with no foundation,
    it does have 3 walls, a roof and is attached to the house.  my main
    concern is support and rot (I will use PT lumber if I go that way).
    
    Fra

    By all means, fix the supports RIGHT before trying to do anything.
    Your description of the present situation sounds worrisome to me.
    I suppose it depends in part on what you're willing to live with,
    but I'd certainly want to fix it.
    I'd vote for concrete-filled pipes from 2nd floor to concrete
    footings, boxed in to make attractive-looking columns.

    I would put some beams between your posts (however installed) and
    joists.  That's alot of weight there. It's probably required also.
    
    John
    

    How do you people attach the deck frame to a sided house? Should
    you remove the clapboards and nail into the sheathing, mount the
    header right over the clapboards, mount angle iron on the house
    and set the header/ledger on top of angle iron, etc.,.? What works
    best for you?
    

    When I did my deck I removed the clapboards and attached a ledger-
    board to the house using 5" x 3/8" lag screws with washers. The
    lag screws must be screwed into either the foundation sill or studs
    in the first floor framing (mine went into the foundation sill).
    The point is: they cannot be screwed merely into the sheathing.
    I used the lag screws 24" on-center since I went into the continuous
    foundation sill. If attaching to studs then 16" on-center should
    be used. I then attached the 2X8 deck joists to the ledger board
    using joist hangers. An important step is that the ledger-board
    must be flashed where it meets the house before you put the clap-
    boards back on to prevent water from going down between the board
    and the house sheathing. I used 10" wide aluminum flashing and used
    a board to bend it at a right angle 6" from one edge. I placed the
    6" side against the house, extending the 4" side over the ledger-
    board and placed the first flooring board over the 4" side. Do not
    nail the flashing to the ledger board and nail the 6" side against
    the house 1/2" from the top using roofing nails. Once the clapboards
    and decking are installed, the flashing will be invisible.
                                           |
                                          || House
    			 Flashing----->   ||
    					  ||
    			               ___||
    	         _________________________ |
      					  ||
    		  Floor Joist    	  ||
    		  ________________________||
    
    I did see an episode of "This Old House" where they basically built
    a supporting beam about a foot from the house to support the house
    end of the deck and essentially made the deck free-standing and
    did not need a ledger-board attached to the house. This, of course,
    meant extra footings and an extra beam. Mine has worked well for
    five years and did not take too long to install. My ledger board
    is a PT 2x10.
    
    Good Luck-
    
    Larry

.-1 seems to have said most of it...

One point I've found is that it's best not to have the ledger board flush with
the house but rather to put spaces between it and the house where you fasten it.
The point being that water WILL get under the flashing and rot your sill!  When
I removed my deck last month, even though it was only 7 years old and well 
flashed, a 2 foot section of my sill was completely rotted out.

As or lag screws, I suppose if you have to step down to you deck, about the only
place to secure to is the sill and lag bolts sound reasonable to me.  If you're
at the same height, I'm sure nails will do quite nicely.  I'm working on an 
addition and for the decking which will be the same level as the rest of the
house I'm simply putting in 2 16d nails between each joist hanger.  I doubt if
an earthquake would loosen it.

-mark

    I just built a deck (90% complete) and rebuilt the side porch. I
    opted for the free-standing method mentioned in .1.
    I wasn't too crazy about cutting 20 feet of siding off and I prefered
    the idea of having the whole thing resting of piers. (In case I
    want to move it someday - ha)
    I imagine it was more expensive that way, (more tubes, concrete,
    and another beam) but I prefer it over the ledger method. And, 
    after all, if Bob and Norm recommend it, it gotta be better! :-)
    
    Re .2 If you live in an area where it snows, I don't think you should
    make you deck level with the inside floor, might get a little wet
    in the room your slider is off of come January!
    John

    Because sill rotting seems to be common with decks (due to leakage
    behind the ledger), I wonder if anchoring a 6 x 6, PT landscape
    timber directly to the concrete foundation would solve the sill
    rotting problem. I was looking at my foundation (10" thick) and
    thought that if I drilled through the concrete wall, well below
    the sill, mounted a wide enough timber to allow me to set the decks'
    floor joists on top of this timber ledger, keeping at least a 1"
    space between the deck framing and the house's siding. If this is
    done, the siding is not disturbed and any water trapped behind the
    timber ledger would be against the concrete wall. What do you think?
    

I'm not really sure what the best cure for a rotted sill is.  What I've done in
the past is to simply clean out most of the rot and HEAVILY coat what remains
with wood preservative.  I've never had more than a few feet rot on me and
therefore never worried about the structural implications.  However, if a big
chunk is indeed rotted out, I'd think the thing to do is replace as must as
reasonable.

I believe that since the rot is caused by moisture, eliminating the soure and
coating with the wood preservative should be sufficient to retard and future
rotting.  Is this true?

-mark

    re: .0
    
    When I built my deck (12'x40') I attached the deck's header over the
    clapboards. I used carriage bolts with a spacer between the header and
    the clapboards to allow drainage and the bolts go through the header,
    clapboard, sheathing and the band joist of the house. 
                                                          
    You can line up the deck header with the band joist even if you decide
    to have the deck lower than the interior floor since there is 10-12"
    of band joist.                                                      
                                                          
    I saw no reason to cut off the clapboards and therefore I did not
    have to get involved with flashing. The spacer takes care of any
    rot. It worked for me .............              
                                                                        

    Re: water getting behind ledger.
    I tucked some aluminum flashing well up under the adjacent siding layer,
    wrapping it around and down over the ledger, thus:

            \
         |\  \ <-- existing siding          what I can't draw (well) to scale
         | \  \                             is the extent to which I tucked it
         |  \__\                            up under the siding
         |
         +------------+
         +----------+ | <-- flashing
         |          | |
         |  ledger  | |
         |          |
         |          |

    
    I have an unusual situation.  Due to my lack of knowledge I let
    a large error occur in the construction of my foundation.  I am
    currently trying to build a roofless deck over a full foundation
    that has a doorway leading to the rest of the foundation.  Meaning
    I'll need to build a weather-proof deck.  The foundation appears
    something like this :
                              Note : all 10" walls, deck area is full
    foundation, too.
    			 _______________________    
    			|			|\
                        |                       | \ 
                        |                       |  \ 
                        |                       |   \  
                        |                       |    \    
                        |                       |     \     
                        |                       |      \      
                        |                       |       Full foundation 
                        |                       |            
                        |                       |      /      
                        |                  /    |     /     
                        |           door->/     |    /  
     Partitioning wall->|________________/______|   /   
       with doorway     |                       |  /  
                        |  DECK AREA TO BUILD   | / 
          		|_______________________|/ 
                                                    
    One idea was to use pt 2X6 sills, 2X8 joists, toungue and groove fir
    plywood (current supplies that I have).  Adding a one-piece rubber
    skin on top of that.  This will bring the deck to 1.5" below the
    sliding glass door that goes above where the DOOR (between the
    foundations) on the above drawing.  What suggestions does anyone
    have for finishing off this deck??		HELP!
    
    Please excuse my inexperienced drawing and ask any questions.
    
    Thanks,
    -Pam Lassen
                                                   
    

    
    Boy, that's a tough one!  Do you plan on walking on this deck area?
    If so, I question how long a one piece rubber film will last...I
    don't think you'd ever be happy with that.  Is this in an area where
    you could possibly add a greenhouse or sunroom? Is it too late to
    just expand the size of the house? How about if you put a concrete
    wall in the place of the partition and just filled in the mistake
    with dirt?
    One other possibility would be to look into some methods that are
    used to waterproof the tops of earth sheltered houses...If floor
    joist height is a problem (because of the door above), you could
    always frame walls just inside the concrete foundation to support
    the weight of the joists and whatever covering material you use.

    
    All good suggestions - thanks.
    
    Yes, the intention was to use this as a deck to have cook-outs on
    and such.  I priced some greenhouses.  One placed asked about $11,000
    for the size I'd need.  Yikes!  Yes, the loghouse part is complete
    and connot be expanded (at least not on my current construction loan).
    Do you know of a good place to get the info for earth house sealants?
    
    Thanks again,
    -Pam
    

    
    Can you get a forms guy to come in and put a new wall in the correct
    place? Then you could fill in the deck area with gravel and top
    it off with a cement slab. You would loose the doorway.
    
    This is how a 'Farmers Porch' was done on the front of my house,
    however, it is under a roof.

    Not knowing anything about this sort of thing, it seems that there
    are two potential problems:
    
    	1) Water getting through into the basement
    
    	2) Water destroying the wood if you use anything other than
    		pressure treated stuff
    
    
    From the previous couple of responses it sounds like building a
    regular floor (ie regular joists and plywood flooring) and treating
    that with some sort of cupernol(sp?) is something that wouldn't
    work.
    
    I raised a similiar question in another note when I mentioned that
    I could get a full basement for cheap $$ but wanted a screened in
    porch over it initially (due to lack of $$). The general tenor of
    the responses was that a full basement was too expensive. Since
    the author of this original note (RIDGE?) has a similar situation
    I'm wondering if (aside from the cost), the two problems I listed
    above are in fact the only things to worry about, and secondly,
    whether there isn't some way to get around them.
    
    Paul
    

    	The main proble as pointed out in .4 is sealing the deck to
    keep water out of the basement. The only way to do that is to treat
    the deck as if it were a roof. Sealing a flat roof has lots of problems
    associated with it, and add to that the problem of walking on it
    on a regular basis compounds the problem. The most common thing
    to do is to seal the area with a flat roof and then build a deck
    over that. But that doesn't work well in this situation because
    you need a finished height below the door.
    
    	My suggestion would be to contact a roofing contracter that
    has experence with flat roofs. They have all kinds of new HI-TECH
    products that are suppose to seal flat roofs. But I'm of the opinion
    that any one who builds a building with a flat roof in New England
    is asking for trouble. I can't think of one flat roof building I've
    seen that hasn't had a leak problem at one time or another.
    
    	Personally, if the area was on any other side except north I'd
    cover it temporarily with a tarp and save my nickels and dimes for
    a greenhouse/sunroom. If its on the south side you could get some
    good solar heating effects utilizing the basement area.
    
    	Good luck...	
    			...Dave

I'll try an ascii picture.  Some of what I said in the previous reply may not
have been clear.  

 -----  -----  -----  -----  -----  -----  -----  -----  -----
|     ||     ||     ||     ||     ||     ||     ||     ||     |  deck
 -----  -----  -----  -----  -----  -----  -----  -----  -----
----------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                |
 <-short end   TAPERED sleeper                       wide-end-> |
----------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------- roofing mat'l
----------------------------------------------------------------
          plywood 'roof'                                        |
----------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                |

    
    Thanks, everyone for your helpful ideas.  I'm plob'ly going to do
    a temp roof/deck thing-a-ma-jig, cover it well and save for greenhouse.
    The best thing out of all this is a lesson well learned won't bring
    errors in the future!  At least not as many.
    
    Thanks again,
    -Pam
    

    I need to level the floor of an enclosed porch that will eventually
    be turned into a bathroom.  I have an idea on how to do it, and
    need some feedback on whether it is the best way, or if there are
    other better ways.
    
    Some Background:
    The porch measures 6 1/2' x 10 1/2' with the slope traveling down
    the short side.  Total drop in 6 1/2' is about 2 inches.  The flooring
    is T&G fir on 2x8 joists.  
    
    To level the floor, I planned to rip 2x4s into 6 1/2' wedges (like
    big door stops) that taper from 2" down to a point, and nail these 
    to the sloped floor at one foot intervals. (The wedges would be
    perpendicular to the joists.) When I lay plywood onto the wedges,
    I'll have a level floor. 
    
    One other note: I'm trying to raise the level of the porch floor
    so that it ends up being the same as the adjacent hallway.  I may use 
    fatter wedges, depending on how much height I need. 
    
    My wife thinks this idea sounds crazy. Any comments or other ideas?
    
    thanks,
    Joe    

    Perhaps the first thing you ought to check on is why the floor is
    sloped in the first place.  Porches are notorious for bad footings
    and rotten support posts (don't ask me how I know....).  You may
    need major repairs instead of adjustments with tapered blocks.
    
    However, *IF* the porch does have solid support and the floor slopes
    only because it was built that way in the first place (quite possible,
    for water runoff, if the porch wasn't always enclosed), then your
    tapered wedge idea ought to be fine.  But if you do have bogus supports
    under the porch, don't just shim things up and hope it will be okay.
    It won't.
    

    
    
    	I would think that the wedges would be split down the middle when you drive
    the nails in but I can't think of a better idea.
    		-Steve-
    

    .2 reminds me - if the structure is okay and you do go with the
    wedges, you might do well to use long drywall screws to fasten
    down the wedges.  They come in long sizes; I've seen them
    up to 4" and they probably come longer.  If not screws, at least
    use ring-shank nails.  Otherwise you're just about guaranteed to
    get squeaks.

    Like you said, it sounds like a "hack", but that's the way I'd do
    it too. One precaution: check the level of the floor in both
    directions, as well as diagonally. While you're doing this it would
    be nice to get the floor truly level and horizontal. If you're lucky
    and the slope is only in one direction, you can cut all of the 2x4's
    the same (make a jig). Otherwise, as is more likely the case, you
    may have to cut each one individually, if the differences are too
    much to shim.
    
    Of course, there is one other alternative, which is to tear up the
    whole floor and attach new joists to the existing ones, bringing
    them up to level. Not having seen the job, I suspect this would
    be more work than it's worth, but I just thought I'd mention it.
    A lot of contractors would probably prefer to do it this way.

    RE: .4
    
    If it were me, I'd rip the old stuff out and tie new joists to the
    old ones and put 3/4" t/g plywood over the whole shabang.  Especially
    if the area is not very large.  As an earlier reply stated, you
    may have to do some replacement under there anyway.  I think this
    would give you the best chance of getting it level.  I'd hate to
    take a short cut and end up shimming the vanity, shower/tub and
    toilet. YUK.  If the floor isn't right, you'll spend more time later
    correcting for it.
    
    Then again, I like starting from scratch rather than building around
    old stuff.  To each his own...
    
    Phil

    Don't bother trying to level it, take advantage of it! 
    
    Tile the floor and walls, put a drain in the low end of the floor, a
    shower head on the wall and you got WALK IN SHOWER!
    
    
    
    ONLY KIDDING! :-) :-) :-) 
    
    I agree with the tear it up and do it right suggestions, especially
    considering the size and intended use of the room. The only extra
    materials needed to do it right are the new floor joists the you can
    "sister" to the old ones. 
    
    I have used the tapered wedge idea in other applications, but it was a
    2" taper over 2 feet and there was some margin for error since it was
    for a roof. Cutting a 2" taper over 6 feet would be very tricky and you
    want the result to absolutley level and solid. 

    Charly

    Thanks for the fast replies!
    
    In answer to a question raised:
    
    The porch has a pretty solid footing on the full stone foundation.
    I don't think the slope is due to settling because this foundation
    also supports the adjacent hallway, and that's level. The slope
    runs away from the house, so the water runoff idea sounds plausible.
    
    The drywall screw idea sounds great, as does the t&g plywood (I
    didn't know there was such a product).  
    
    I will definitely check the level in both directions and adjust 
    the size of the wedges accordingly.  
    
    I realize this approach may be somewhat of a "hack," but I really
    don't want to start from scratch by tearing up the floor and joists,
    especially when they look so solid from the crawl space below. 
    
    Joe
    
    

>    I really
>    don't want to start from scratch by tearing up the floor and joists,
>    especially when they look so solid from the crawl space below. 
    
The comment makes me suspect that you don't fully understand the advice 
folks are giving you.

They're saying that you should tear up the existing floor but NOT the
existing joists.  Then attach new, plumb-and-square 2-by-large boards
beside the old, crooked joists.  (This technique is known as "sistering"). 
No tricky angles to cut, no thin pieces to split.

You'll probably need to open up the floor anyway for plumbing and
electrical work...

    	Ditto most of the aboves. Sistering is the way to go. If you
    are going to have to rip more than about 10 of those wedges the
    time involved to pull up the old floor (and just the floor) will
    be about the same. I've ripped 10 foot long wedges before and its
    just a lot of work for a "hack" job. 
    	Also, as .8 pointed out you will most likly want to take the
    floor out to facilitate plumbing and wiring.
    
    	The only negative aspect of sistering joists is you sometimes
    have a limited amount of room to swing a hammer between the joists.
    
    		Do it right, and be pleased with yourself.
    
    					...Dave
    

    Just re-read the original note and noticed these.
    
>    To level the floor, I planned to rip 2x4s into 6 1/2' wedges (like
>    big door stops) that taper from 2" down to a point, and nail these 
>    to the sloped floor at one foot intervals. (The wedges would be
>    perpendicular to the joists.) When I lay plywood onto the wedges,
>    I'll have a level floor. 

    I'm confused.  Are you saying your joists run the LONG way?  Or did
    you really mean you would run the wedges PARALLEL to the joists?
        
>        One other note: I'm trying to raise the level of the porch floor
>    so that it ends up being the same as the adjacent hallway.  I may use 
>    fatter wedges, depending on how much height I need. 

    How much are you going to increase the height?  Do you now step down to
    the porch about 5-6"?  If that's the case, I think it would be pretty
    dificult to attach wedges.
    

Why would it not be the right thing to jack up the porch floor and level and
support it from underneath?  Especially if the porch was built to slope, you can
likely just put a thicker sill on the foundation of the lower side to get it
level.

Jim. 

    The joists DO run the 10 1/2' lenth of the porch, and the wedges
    (if that's the solution I choose) would be perpendicular to the
    joists. 
    
    I currently step down about 3 inches when I enter the porch.  If
    the doorway was on the low side of the porch, the drop would be
    about 5 inches.  I want to make up this total distance with: the
    wedges, 3/4" plywood, and a hardwood floor, which is also about
    3/4" thick.  So, the wedges would taper from 3 1/2" down to 1 1/2".
    I think the 3 1/2" side may be difficult to fasten.  Any ideas on
    that?
    
    One note: I'm using the hardwood floor (5" wide t&g oak) because 
    I have it, and because this will be a low-traffic bathroom, very 
    rarely used for showers.  Can I expect it to hold up well?
    
    Joe
    

    I would be leary of using hardwood floors in a bathroom.  Just my
    gut feeling based on how wood expands and contracts with just normal
    humidity swings.
    
    If the joists go the long way you have even LESS work than if they
    went the short way.  Hell, you could even slap up new joists on
    hangers if hammering room was insufficient.  I would think the firmness
    of the floor should be THE primary concern, especially in a bathroom.
    You never know.  You may decide on tile (I put it in myself and
    it looks great) in which case you'll be glad you did the floor "right".
    
    Just another $.02 ($.06 total)

>    I would think the firmness
>    of the floor should be THE primary concern, especially in a bathroom.

You touched a nerve there.  Failure of a toilet's wax seal, caused by the
toilet rocking on an uneven or flimsy floor, can do an AMAZING amount of
structural damage over time.  Pretty gross too. 

    I need to dig four holes for concrete piers for a closed in
    porch (really an addition without foundation).  The holes
    need to be 4' deep, and about 2' in diameter at the bottom so
    I can pour footings.  I tried digging by hand (HA!), but clay
    and roots make it too difficult.  So far no problem with BIG
    rocks.   Should I
    
    a) Hire a backhoe with operator
    b) rent a little backhoe
    c) rent a power-auger (do they come this big?)
    d) hire something or someone else?
    
    What can I expect various options to cost?
    
    				George
    
    (I seem to recall some of this being discussed before, but couldn't
    find it using note 1111 -- must be in replies to something else)

See notes 152, 221, 1098, and 1265, which were under FOUNDATIONS, and notes 320
and 1292, which were under FENCES (post hole digging). 

Paul

    Yes, I looked at those -- they don't address the questions of holes
    that need to be more than 1' in diameter -- I've seen BIG augers
    on power company trucks -- they look like they'd do the job.
    
    Fence-post holes these are NOT.

The first thing I would check is if you really need the footings.  When I did 
my deck, 8" piers 4' into the ground were sufficient to comply with code.  But 
then, that was for an uncovered deck.

When I went to dig the holes, I had the some of the same problems you did, 
except that I didn't have root problems.  Rocks were a major problem.  I was 
told by the rental place that power augers weren't the answer, because they 
couldn't handle rocks.

For the four piers, I ended up digging what amounted to two trenches, each 
trench connecting two holes.  I used the post hole digger until I hit a rock.  
Then I would dig the trench a little lower until I could get under the rock 
with a crowbar or shovel.  Took a day and a half, and was a real pain in the 
butt.  Just as a side comment, the cost of buying a post hole digger was just 
a bit more than the cost of renting one for two days, so I ended up buying 
one.  Not exactly a tool I use every day, but at least I will never have to 
rent one again.

For me four holes suitable for 8" sonotubes was about the limit.  If you 
really do need the footings or if you have to dig more than four holes, I'd 
recommend the backhoe option.  Also, if you have other backhoe work on your 
property, such as rocks or small stumps you'd like to dig up, you could do 
that at the same time.

Good luck

clay

    Another option might be to hire a zealous kid for a day.

    Yes, I really need footings -- this isn't a deck, it's an addition
    -- if it heaves or settles much I'm in trouble.
    
    So -- I'm still hoping someone has some ball-park cost figures.

	I did something similiar recently.  I went to the local renta
	store and rented the "TOWHOE".  This is a mini backhoe that
	you tow with your truck/car(?).  Once you get it to the site
	you move it around by using the bucket to push/pull it on it's
	rear wheels.  It was actually fun and I got pretty good at it
	after a few hours.  Not cheap tho.... If I remember it was 
	about $100/ day.

	-gary

    So this is the DEC plans note eh?  :^)
    
    I have a cement slab off the kitchen door that is about 10'x16'
    and I'd like to build a PT deck (not enclosed) with a nice railing
    and maybe some built in seats etc.  Can I build it right on the
    slab, ie. can I place the four corner supports on the cement itself
    or do I have to build footings??  I'm not sure how thick the
    slab is, maybe 4"-6" inches.  (I suppose I could did around it
    to see how far it extends downward).  I don't plan on building
    the deck high off the ground as there is about 6" between the
    slab and the bottom of the kitchen door, which might make things
    interesting.  I also plan on NOT attaching it to the house itself.
    
    Eric
    

    Yeah, a little mini backhoe should do the trick. Taylor Rental
    charges around $130. You need a 3/4 or 1 ton truck to haul those
    things tho. $20 bucks picked up and delivered ain't bad.
    John
    

    RE: .4
    
    >    Another option might be to hire a zealous kid for a day.


    Sorry, they don't make these anymore! ;-)

      You should have no problem resting the deck right on the slab.
    You can use 2X4s or 2X6s for floor joists(whatever you need to
    get the right height) since the slab will be supporting the weight.
    Just make sure you use pressure treated for the floor because that
    wood will get mighty wet under there. There is no need to worry
    about a footing unless the slab has heaving problems during the
    winter.
    
    					Kenny

    OK, another deck scenario for your comment:
    
    I've got a ~16x20 concrete foundation (used to be a greenhouse)
     in my backyard that I'd like to use as the piers/foundation for a deck.
    
    The walls of the foundation are about 8" thick and kind of uneven
    on the top (horizontal) surface.  Inside the rectangle of the
    foundation is grass/weeds.
    
    	-What's the best way to secure the deck beams to the foundation?
    
    	-Should I kill the grass before I start nailing things together?
    	 
        -When, aesthetically speaking, is a deck too big?  (I've already
         got a 20x20 concrete patio next to the foundation.)  Should
         I think about incorporating a garden inside the deck (using
         the grassy area already there)?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Brian

I just gotta toss in my comments on this one.  I built an addition awhile ago on
piers.  The biggest mistake I ever made was NOT putting in a full foundation.
The room came out fine, and all that, but I always regretted not going the full
route.  If YOU'RE doing the work yourself (which it sounds like you are),
consider doing it right.  I'll bet it's a lot cheaper than you think.

-mark

    re .9
    
    Yes, I'm doing it myself.
    
    Why are you dissatisfied with piers?  I know folks (in New England)
    whose entire house is on piers, and they don't find it unsatisfactory.
    I'm not trying to argue, just don't understand.  A 'basement' under
    this addition is impossible without blasting and reworking the
    foundation of the main house (and more blasting).
    
    The closest I can come to a 'real' foundation is a frostwall, and
    even that might be difficult.

Ahhh, that explaions it...  If you're on ledge, then you probably don't even
have to worry about footings.  WHen I did my addition I had a backhoe come out
and did my holes (actually he dug a trench).  Took a little over an hour and
only cost around $75!  This was for a 14X20 addition and well worth it.  How
big an area do you need to do?

-mark

    The addition is 8 X 24 -- it's beginning to look like a backhoe
    is the way to go.

    			George
    

    I second the motion to get a poured concrete foundation, or even
    a cycnder block wall.  What is the rest of the house on? Why not
    try to match the rest of the house?
    
    Call a concrete forms guy and get an estimate. Make your own forms.
    Call the cement co and they will deliver. There are many ways to
    go.
    
    I know a carpenter who was building his own house.  He purchased
    special plywood and made his own forms.  He later used the plywood
    for sheating on the roof. It was a little dirty and smelled somewhat
    but he said you wouldn't notice it when the ceiling was insulated
    and the sheetrock was up.
    
    This ply was heavy, very heavy after being used for cement.
    
    Steve

    	What is a frost wall?  The porch has what looks like a concrete
    	"wall" running around it several inches thick, and about 1/2'
    	away from the porch.  How deep is that likely to run?  Is it
    	preventing some of the movement of the ground due to frost?
    	  Linda

re: -.1


A frost wall is a concrete wall that goes down below the frost level.  In
the northern part of the US this is typically considered to be 4' to be
on the safe side.  You won't necessarily get frost down that far, at 
least not every year, but you could get that one year with a long cold
spell.

Once frost gets into the ground it causes heaves like you see in the roads.
If one of these is under a part of your building it will push that up also.

-gary

    The rest of the house is on hand-layed stone ("field stone").  Looks
    like a giant stone wall.  Not much mortar -- what is there is probably
    only to keep drafts out, and doesn't do that very well.
    
    Now you know why I don't want to match the existing foundation.

    I've built both decks and additions on piers and when they installed
    properly, they work out fine. Of course, a full foundation is nice
    but the costs are quite a bit more. I finished installing 4 piers
    last night, to be used to support a deck for now, later to be inclosed
    into a screened in porch (if we can't stand the bugs). I rented
    a small backhoe, had it delivered, 12" sona tubes, cement, and about
    10 hrs. my labor. Total costs = under $200. You know what the costs
    of excavating a foundation, form work, poured concrete, possible
    concrete floor, back filling, etc.,. runs now a days? Your talking
    costs in the thousands, not to mention you even finding a contractor
    who isn't already booked to the end of the season.
     My recommendation is to get a backhoe (rent $135/day or finds someone
    who'll do it at about $45 per hour - 2 hrs work), dig down to virgin
    sub soil, at least 4 feet down in New England, install the sona
    tube, backfill by hand, mix up some readymix concrete, fill the
    tubes and begin building 48 hours later.
    

no arguments with .-1 except why backfill by hand?  I'll bet you'd be looking
at LOTS of hours and LOTS of blisters when a backhoe could probably do it in
under an hour!

I always thought of myself as cheap until I saw what a backhoe is capable of. 
I will NEVER again dig a ditch or a tree stump by hand if I can help it. 

btw - if you do go with the backhoe route, do you have any miscellaneous jobs
that need being done like removing tree stumps?  A backhoe can dig up the
average stump in around 5-10 minutes vs 1-2 days of your time.  Many people
leave stumps because they simply don't/can't dig them by hand and don't
realize how quick and easy it is with a back hoe.

-mark

	Re: -.1
    
>  btw - if you do go with the backhoe route, do you have any miscellaneous jobs
>that need being done like removing tree stumps?  A backhoe can dig up the
>average stump in around 5-10 minutes vs 1-2 days of your time.  Many people
>leave stumps because they simply don't/can't dig them by hand and don't
>realize how quick and easy it is with a back hoe.

    True digging them up is easy with a backhoe, but that's usually
    the least of the problem.  It's trying to get rid of them that's
    difficult and costly.

    Ref.16 
     I recommended backfilling by hand because if you use the backhoe
    with a large volume of dirt or dirt with a few larger rocks, you
    run the risk of collapsing the cardboard sona tube. I also had the
    backhoe operator (one that I rented with an operator) smash the
    tube when he was side pushing some dirt into the hole. It's really
    not that bad backfilling by hand because the soil is usually very
    loose and you can move alot of soil fairly quickly. One other note,
    is that you only have to backfill by hand, the area immediately
    around the sona tube, the rest can certainly be done with the backhoe.
    

>     I recommended backfilling by hand because if you use the backhoe
>    with a large volume of dirt or dirt with a few larger rocks, you
>    run the risk of collapsing the cardboard sona tube. 

Are you implying you're backfilling before filling the tubes (I don't see how
you could crush a tube filled with concrete)?  If so, you're using them all
wrong.  The reason sona tubes cost do damn much is that they're strong enough
to fill with concrete BEFORE you backfill.

If you are filling them before backfilling, please explain you comment about
crushing them.

-mark

    I would NEVER put down a hardwood floor in a bathroom, whether you
    have it or not. The resin in oak has a characteristic that it turns
    black when exposed to water. Other woods, such as maple, will stain
    and discolor. I cannot conceive of any way the floor could be sealed
    so that it would never get damp or wet, especially with fixtures
    installed. It might look great, but I think you will live to regret
    putting down hardwood. Use it somewhere else.
    
    - Ram

    As far as tearing up the old floor goes, you've been getting some
    pretty strong advice to do it, but in my opinion it is still marginally
    advantageous. The things that have been noted are true: the result
    will be more likely to be completely level, might be more solid,
    and could make a few other jobs a little easier (I don't think that's
    a big deal, since you already indicated you have access to the floor
    from below).
    
    Having worked on old house a lot, I can almost guarantee that it won't
    be as simple as just ripping out the sub-floor. There are all kinds of
    things that could complicate the job and make it one you wished you had
    never started. It's true that it feels good to do it "right", but some
    things are just better left alone, when you can use your time to more
    advantage elsewhere. My feeling is that you will have to make this
    decision based on a careful evaluation of the work site and how easy it
    will be to get the old floor up, along with how much time you want to
    spend on this job. 

    I've never filled the sona tube before backfilling, otherwise it
    might just fall over. The proper way is to dig the hole to virgin
    soil, 4+ feet down (New England), set the sona tube in, start shoveling
    a couple of shovels full of loose dirt - enough so that the tube
    will remain vertical on its own, now use a level to make sure the
    tube is as close to straight up as you can get it, continue backfilling
    & checking with level until you are up to grade, shoot desired
    elevation, mark it with a nail pushed through side ot sona tube,
    mix concrete and pour. If you have any re-rod hanging around you
    can sink one down the middle of the tube but this is not necessary.
    
    - sona tubes are made of cardboard and don't have much strenght
    against compression (outside in) and can be callapsed by a stone
    rolling (basketball size) up against them during backfilling. I've
    also had them crushed but the bucket while trying to get alittle
    to close. I still suggest backfilling (just the area immediately
    around the tube) by hand. It only take about 5 minutes for backfilling
    around a 10" tube thats 5' down, really it so easy, 5 minutes tops.
    I may consider using a hoe if I were backfilling with sand but if
    there are any small bolders in your backfill material, it's not
    worth taking a change to save a few minutes of hand labor.
    
    

    I am getting ready to build a deck for an above ground pool, it
    will be free standing and not attached to anything (such as the
    house). I am going to use sono tubes four feet down filled with
    concrete as suggested here. My question is, do I sink my pressure
    treated 4"x4" posts into the sono tubes a couple of feet and fill
    around them with concrete or is there some other way that I should
    be doing it? It seems that just bolting the 3 1/2' to 4' posts
    to the concrete as is normally done and not having it attached
    to the house would make it wobbly or something? Any help or
    suggestions for this situation would be appreciated.
    
                                    Thanks Wayne
    
    

Interesting...  The way I do it is simply fill the sucker without any fill 
around.  Even a 12" sona tube filled with as much as 4 feet of concrete is easy
to move around and level.  That way there's no need to be gentle when 
backfilling.

-mark

  Sonotubes are strong enough to hold a free-standing pour up to 12 feet
  in depth (and you can special-order reinforced tubes for even longer
  piers).  I think they are even stronger than they need to be for the pour
  because backfilling indeed places more stress on the tube than does
  the concrete.  Yeah, hitting a sonotube with a basketball-sized rock
  may wreck it but what *can't* you wreck that way?  You have to take care
  when backfilling no matter what you're covering up (footing drain, water
  line, sewage line, etc.) and the techniques mention by Mr. Downs are
  all good ones.

  Mark, if you pour without backfilling, how do you get the concrete to
  the top of the tube?  Seems to me it's a lot easier to get a wheelbarrow
  or a concrete truck to the tube if it's in the ground.  Maybe I'm just
  feeling puny this morning but the idea of working a 12" x 4' cylinder
  of concrete into place does not strike me as "easy." 

  By the way, sonotubes are really "Builder's Tube" from Sonoco Corporation.
  You can buy cheaper tubes but some of them are real junk...

  JP

The last (and the only time) I used form tubes, printed clearly on the tube 
was:

	Important! Remove tube immediately after using.

Clearly the manufacturer of the form tube didn't think that the proper way
to use the tube was to backfill it before filling it.

(A carpenter friend said that there was no non-cosmetic reason to remove the 
form tube, so I didn't.)

re: ..22

I think he means to fill the tube when it is in place and levelled, but 
before it is backfilled.  At least that's what I did.  I put in a bit
of concrete around the outside of the form tube to provide some stability
initially, but once I got started, it stayed level pretty much by itself.
So it's not as if you are muscling around a 1 x 12 column on concrete,
just making slight leveling adjustments if necessary.    

Clay

  Re: .23

  >	Important! Remove tube immediately after using.

  Goodness, I hope they don't have any literal-minded customers.  I think
  you should wait until the concrete sets up!  

  I'm guessing, but I think this would refer to free-standing piers.  Maybe
  if you wait too long, the cardboard sticks to the concrete?  I 
  certainly can't think of any structural reason not to leave the tube
  in the ground with the concrete...

  JP

    Setting the wood (even PT) in the concrete will encourage
    rot.  After a couple of years it may be very wobbly indeed.
    Bolting to the piers should work just fine as long as you're
    using the standard post-to-pier hardware.

Filling a sona tube is really no big deal.  You simply wheel your barrow over
to it and shovel in the concrete.  In fact, my building inspector had told me
when I did the job to fill the tube up a couple of feet and theh lift it letting
the concrete ooze out the bottom form a footing in one step.  Keep in mind that
when I did this the tube projected several feet about the ground as well so I
guess there was probably6 feet of tube to fill.  Even if you backfilled first
you'd still have to shovel the concrete into it.

As for the remove the cardboard, I had almost forgotten that part.  It is indeed
clearly marked on the tubes.  I always thought that that might have helped the
concrete cure properly.  If you never remove the tube how would the moisture
every get out?  It'd take forever to percolate up through the top...

-mark

re: .24

>  >	Important! Remove tube immediately after using.

>  Goodness, I hope they don't have any literal-minded customers.  I think
>  you should wait until the concrete sets up!  

To be sure for some DIYers. (I may have quoted it incorrectly.)

Of course the other problem is that most concrete professionals (at least the
ones that I dealt with when we were putting on our addition) can't read anyway 
;^)

Clay

    Well, that's certainly wealth of advice.  I'm glad you all won't
    be looking over my shoulder when I get started! 
                           
    Here's what I'm thinking of doing:
    
    I won't use oak flooring, and I won't tear up the floor and do the
    sistering -- unless I have to.  RE .16 -- we see things the same
    way.
    
    Because the floor is a little springy in the center, I want to see if 
    my wedge idea can provide the stiffness I need.  I plan to rip 2 or 3 
    "test" wedges and install them in the center of the floor (which is 
    the most springy). I'll lay some plywood over that and jump on it a 
    little.  Based on my feel of the solidness, and my wife's view of 
    joist movement below (and vice versa), we'll decide whether the wedges 
    provide sufficient stiffness.  
    
    I have a feeling that the wedges will do the trick. They will only be 
    about 6 feet long, and each end rests on a sill.  I'll let you guys know
    how things go. 
    
    As for a floor, I'm now thinking of ceramic tile.  (I still need
    a use for that oak.)  
                       
    Joe
    
    
    

  Re: .25

  >If you never remove the tube how would the moisture get out?

  That's easy -- it doesn't.  Concrete cures faster and better underwater.
  I don't know the details but I believe that the water is incorporated into
  the structure of the concrete itself.

  JP

    	Normally I'd agree with reply .7 but this past week I Built
    the steps to my 10 foot high deck which required two sets of steps
    with a landing at the 5 foot level. I built the free standing landing
    first and then the connecting stairs. I used the standard post anchers
    and bolted that thing down tight. The landing was still extreamly
    wobbly until the stairs were put in and anchered to the ground and
    deck which gave it the necessary cross bracing.
    	Sinking the posts would have definatly helped, but I still can't
    whole heartily recommend it. If the deck is not to high you might
    not have a problem. If you do, cross bracing between the posts should
    take care of it.
    
    					...Dave
    

    Cross brace it if you need it but DO NOT SINK THE POSTS INTO THE
    CONCRETE.  It will not encourage rot. It will gaurantee it!
    
    There is no way that you can prevent a gap between the post and
    the concrete.  The post will shrink somewhat and there may be some
    vibration of the post during the initial cure that forces the hole
    larger than it need be.  This will trap water.  What happens with
    trapped water and wood ??  I don't think it makes any difference
    if it's PT or not except it may take a little longer with the PT.
    
    Best bet is PT set off the conrete with metal post anchors.  They
    don't make those post anchors just to make a little extra money.
    (although they do cost an arm and a leg just for a little hunk of
    metal).

    What do those pier<->post anchors look like? I'm in the middle of
    digging my 48" deep, 10" dia pier holes and had been planning on
    embedding the posts in the concrete (per a neighbor's recommendations)
    until I read the past few replies.
    
    Thanks,
    Paul
    

    The ones I used were purchased at Grossman's, but any building supply
    store will have them. And of course Spag's must carry them -- if
    you live anywhere near. ;-)   Here's what a post anchor looks like:
          
    
    |                  |
    |                  |  <-  nail holes 
    |                  |                
    |__________________|                
    |                  |                
    |______    ________|                
                                        

    The post sits in the upper section, held in place with nails. I
    have heard of two ways anchor can be attached to the cement. 
    
    One way is to sink a piece of threaded rod into the cement when it was
    wet, then set the anchor on the wet cement -- to make sure it was level
    and at the proper height, then REMOVE THE ANCHOR until the cement has
    cured. Once the cement is fully cured, put the anchor back over the
    threaded rod and put a washer and nut on to hold it in place. You have
    to make sure that the exposed section of threaded rod does not have any
    cement on it when you are finished pouring the cement -- otherwise you
    will have a very hard time putting a nut on it! 
                                                                     
    The other way I have read about is to sink the anchor into the wet
    cement (without any rod, I guess) upto the bottom of the upper cup.
    Let the cement harden and then install the post.                 
                                                                     
    I prefer the first as it allows more flexibility for alignment of
    the posts, etc. Perhaps the second way is stronger, I don't know.

    	I've used several diffrent kinds of anchors. The first as described
    in .11 allow you the flexability of not knowing exactly where to
    place the post until after deck construction. the bottom of some
    of thes kinds of anchors even have big slots in them for about 2
    inches of adjustment. The other advantage to these is that the post
    does not sit directly on the cement. They have special anchor bolts
    for these also which are about 5 or 6 inches long with a right angle
    at the bottom like a "J" or "L". If you realy aren't sure where
    the posts are going to sit on the cement you could always drill
    and use some lead inserts to bolt the anchor down. 
    	The only proble I've found with this type of anchor is that
    they don't seem to hold the post very stiffly and long posts still
    tend to rock a little.
    
    	For a real secure hold I prefer what are known as "wet post
    anchors".
    	They kind of look like this:
    
    		|            |
               ||  post      ||
               ||            ||
               |______________|---------------- cement level
               |              |
                \            /
                /            \                              
    The bigest problem with thes type is that they require you to know
    exactly where the post is to be placed before you sink the anchor
    into the cement. Once the cement is dry these things just do not
    move so there is no room for error. But for a secure anchor they
    can't be beat. They just take a little setup and design time to
    know where the dec is goung and to square up the footings. I find
    a good layout useing batter boards helps with the placement.
    
    	Just for discussion purposes. If the deck is not very high off
    the ground it may not always be necessary to anchor the post. They
    do make little cast aluminum cleates that nail to the end of the
    post and keep the wood about 1 inch off the cement. These are realy
    only good where there is no danger of knocking out a post from the
    underside.
    
    			Anchors Away...
    					...Dave
    

    One alternative is to pour the cement - sonotube or whatever and
    then drill a hole with a masonry bit.  Then install an anchor that
    expands as it's attempted to be extracted.  There is very little
    margin for error and I'm a lot more comfortable dropping a line
    to a 8 or 10" diameter surface than having the bolt an inch or so
    off.  The bolt is pretty much centered in the anchor.  The post
    fits tightly into the anchor - thus the lack of margin.
    
    If you install the anchor incorrectly in the cement you are stuck
    when it dries - literally!

    Talking about drilling in cement.  I'm just about to start a deck
    and I'm going to have to somehow anchor the ledger board to both
    the house's joist header and to the foundation. What is the recommended
    way to attach a ledger board to a foundation?  A book I saw recommended
    using a "hammer drill" to drill 3/4" holes 4" deep into the foundation
    and then put some sort of lead piece in to hold a lag screw. Is
    this what you folks have done or would do?  Can these "hammer drills"
    be obtained at rental places?  How about using a "special" bit on
    a heavy duty regular hand drill?
    
    Thanks,
    Paul
    

    re .14
    
    Definitely rent a hammer drill rather than try a special bit on
    your own drill.  The hammer action is critical to going through
    the concrete, especially if you are doing 3/4" holes.  All rental
    stores should have one.  Try and identify the locations before you
    rent, then go for a 1/2 day rental.  It should go quickly.  Have
    fun.
    
    -Stan

    I don't recommend the pice of lead and then lag screw technique.
    There are special machine bolts made now that have a lead sleeve
    on one end  and a machine screw thread on the other.  You drill
    a hole to a specific depth, drive the screw home (being careful
    not to damage threads - use scrap of wood), drill whole through
    ledger, put ledger on the bolt, attach washer, lockwasher, and nut.
    You can dispense with the lock washer by peening some threads to
    lock the nut.   These are VERY secure bolts.
    
    The lag screw method produces a far inferior mount.

    Re: .14
    
    If you really do need to drill a bunch of holes 4" deep, then I'd
    probably think about renting a heavy-duty hammer drill too.  For
    just one or two holes, or if you don't need to make them 4" deep,
    I'd probably try a regular 1/2" drill with a 3/4" masonary bit.
    (If you do go with a regular drill, you'll want one that goes about
    700 rpm, probably.)
    
    Depending on how solid your anchors have to be you might look into
    Star (brand) "Tamp-ins".  They come in various sizes, the 3/4"
    diameter size requires a hole about 1" deep and accepts a 3/8" bolt.
    They are pretty solid, once they're installed, and might do the
    trick for you.  The ones that require a 4" hole would no doubt
    be more solid though, just because of more surface area.

            ____________________                               
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           | \\                //|             
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           |   \\            //  |            wedges expand on extraction
           |    \\          //   |            
           |     \\        //    |            
            ------ |      | ------                
            -------+      +-------           
           |                     |          
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           |                     |          
           |                     |          
           |                     |          
           <                     >          
           <                     >           
           <                     >          threads
           <                     >          
           <--------------------->          
                                           

    Thanks for the info on the bolts. I was interested in the different
    kinds of bolts but I'm also interested in knowing what size and
    how deep to make the holes.
    
    I'm building a deck on top of which I plan to put a screened in
    porch.  The deck will be 14 X 14 with two doubled up 2 X 10s acting
    as a beam upon which the  2 x 8 floor joists will rest. A 2 X 8
    ledger will be connected to the house.  Therefore the question I
    have is, "What size bolts, how many, and how deep into the foundation
    do they need to be?", and I'm not sure how to figure that out.
    
    Paul
    

    We're starting to have a deck built and we're going for PERMANENT
    STABILITY by pouring cement into sonotubes with those cement-filled
    steel tubes (about 4" diameter) inside the sonotubes.  When all's
    done, I'll box the posts with PT lumber (mitered corners - I challenge
    you to tell these from solid 6x6's) for the look I want.

    I would like to hear other's opinions on a method of deck construction
    in a brand new house.  The deck is 10-13 feet above the ground.
    The builder didn't anchor the supporting posts AT ALL!  They sit
    on PT wood on the surface of the ground.  Says he's built many decks
    this way and they are all still OK.  I told the person buying this
    house that if *I* was buying the house, I would want the supports
    done differently (ie. concrete columns w/brackets).  This deck is
    in MA.
    
    Has anybody ever done this before?  Does it work??  Or is this deck
    an accident waiting to happen???

    
    	Hello I'm new to HOME_WORK so if I'm covering previously 
    layer groundwork please bare with me. 
    
    The project is a DECK.  Problem being that the old deck (13 yrs.
    old) had a solid floor and was pitched back toward the house. We
    have owned the house now for two years so I knew that the desk was
    ready to go. The pitching problem came about due to frost heaving.
    When I removed the existing deck I found that the siding at deck
    height and below had swelled, the ply sheething and 1/4 " of the
    sill plate was dryrotted.
    
    What I hope to do is install a deck that will eliminate these problems
    from our house. My questions are;
    
    	How deep to go with footings?
    
    	How to handle the dry rot?
    
    
    					Thank's in advance
    
    					Tom Tenerowicz

    I have the choice of having either a 7" step up from my
    deck/screened-in porch to the level of my den, or a 2" step up.
    If I go with the 7" step up, I need to attach the ledger board into
    my foundation (a prospect which doesn't excite me in the least).
    If I go with the 2" step up, it is just a matter of using my drill
    to drill into the house's sill plate and joist header (which seems
    much easier to me).
    
    I had thought that I had to have at least a 7" step up to keep snow
    from piling up agaist the sliders I'll be installing in my house
    wall. The building inspector, however, didn't think there would
    be any problem with having the deck level with the house floor.
    What do the rest of you think? Do I need to worry about snow (and
    use the 7" step up), or can I go with the 2" step up (given that
    this porch will have a roof over it, although no walls)?
    
    Thanks,
    Paul
    

    Please see note 1111.16 for a directory listing of DECK notes. 
    And you're not the only one with this deck problem!  I saw a BRAND
    NEW (expensive) house with a BRAND NEW deck with the same problem!
    

    re: .21
    
    I'm not an authority, but I'd bet that if the building inspector
    took a look the result would be a revoked occupancy permit and maybe
    an order to tear down the deck (or a condemned sign, or whatever
    they do).
    
    Doesn't the code require these things to be anchored below the frost
    line?
    
    Pete

    
    	How deep you go with the footings depends partly on how much
    	load you plan to put on each footing, and partly on what climate
    	you are in. In NE when I did the footings for a 17' X 20' screened
    	in porch with 6 footings (one side of the porch was secured
    	the house) we used a 10" auger and went 3' deep to get well
    	below the frost line. After 12 12 years there has been no trouble
    	what so ever with leveling or shifting... and even the snow
    	from the blizzard of '78 didn't move it. The auger came from
    	Taylor rental in Hudson MA. If your footings need to come above
    	ground level, you will need some sort of a casing, there are
    	tubes made for this. As far as the dry rot goes... I know some
    	builders in Maine who prefer to put aluminum flashing along
    	the top of the joists before they nail in the decking. They
    	also make sure that the decking has adequit spacing (a 16p nail
    	works fine) between each decking plank so it will alow water
    	to run off. Using a PTL is almost a must, and coating it with
    	a quality sealer like Thompsons helps.
    
    /Kevin

    
    When I put on my 12' by 15' deck, (four piers, one side of deck
    secured to house, I had to go down 4' with 8" form tubes.
    
    Clay

re: .21

Ditto to .23
    
Sounds to me like a good situation to avoid, or if not, at least see the 
building permit application.  My suspicion is that he lied on the 
application (either by saying that there were piers or not mentioning the 
deck at all).  I can't imagine such a thing being approved by a building 
department, particularly in Massachusetts.  Remember that in the event of 
problems with a building department, a builder can disappear quicker than you 
can say "building inspector", but it's not so easy to make your house 
disappear.  I'd also have the building inpected by a qualified inspector.

I'd also be suspicious about what other corners he cut.  In my opinion, 
someone who skimps on the foundation is a pretty poor bet.


re: .22

You can always shovel snow away from the slider, but it's not so easy to keep 
the water away.  It seems to me that having the deck level with the floor is a 
bad idea, but that 2" is adequate, assuming that you're talking about the top 
of the deck.

Clay

    Let me give you guys a little more information as I'm already into
    the rebuilding process.
    
    The deck is 13'4" in length along the side of the house. It extends
    out 10'. I'm using three pillars of 4x4 pressure theated southern
    yellow pine secured to 4'x 8" concrete pillars using galvinized
    fasteners. I chiseled out the dryrot and laminated some plywood
    into the damaged areas. There were only about 1 foot square. 
    The frame for the deck is made of 2"x 10" pressure treated pine
    and I'm using 5/4 x 6" decking for a floor. I plan to space the
    decking boards out but I'll probably use only a 10d nail for this.
    The floor joists are held to the header board with joist handers
    and are also toes in. One concern I now have is; will the footing
    be heavy enough to carry the weight?
    
    					Tom

    Re: .22
    
    I would make the deck either level or the 7" inches your talking about.
    A 2" step is too small and "unatural" for most people. 7" is more
    common and would be less likely to confuse and trip someone.
    
    Charly

    RE: .24
    
    The deck in question was built by somebody else, not the builder
    of the house (or so he claims!).  The footings are just the tip
    of the iceberg!  The deck was added AFTER the siding was put on.
    It was NOT flashed up against the house.  No gutter was installed
    to catch runoff from the roof.  Subsequently, the water soaked the
    entire wall below the deck, drawing MEGAants and staining the siding!
    I just couldn't believe what slop craftmanship!  A 4 year old could
    have done better!
    

    What do you mean by "pillers"? Do you mean beams? I assume so.
    If that's the case, I would use 4x6's instead. How many concrete
    footings/posts do you have and what is the spacing?

    example
    <---------------- 13'4" ------------------>
    -------------------------------------------
            x            x            x              
    <-1'2"-> <---5'6"---> <---5'6"---> <-1'2"->

    x = concrete footing/post
    beams travel across concrete posts this way <---------------->
    joists are perpendicular to beams (you called frame, I believe)
    
    John

    Pillars are POLES.
    
    Sorry I flunked art class.
    
    deck is 13' 4" in length. Extends out 10'. Header board is attached
    to the house. Beams are all 2 x 10 pressure treated. Poles and at
    the outside corners of the deck and the center pole is between the
    two corner poles.
        |<-----------13' 4"----------->|
    
    	*--------------*---------------* -
        |                              | ^
        |                              | |
    	|                              | |   
        |                              | 10'
        |                              | |
        |                              | v
        -------------------------------  _
    
    The floor joists (beams) are at 16" on center
    
    					Tom
    
    		HOUSE

    I think I understand. However don't confuse joists with beams. Joists
    are what the flooring (decking) rests on. Beams are what the joists
    rest on. It sounds as though your deck has no beams, just the house
    and outside posts for support of the joists. Often, you can get
    away with that, but if your joists are going to span some distance
    without any support, they will sag eventually.
    You might want to look up and see what the maximun span ratings
    are for the wood you're using. Most books on decks have all this
    information. You mayt also find that a design that incorporates
    some support of your joists may be required.
    John

    
    
    	Just for your infomation, I believe that spanning distance for
    	floor joists 16" o.c. are:
    
    		2x6	10'
    		2x8	12'
    		2x10	14'
    		2x12	16'

    Those are close, a little conservative actually, I looked them up
    last night.
    One thing I see alot though. On designs like the one the author
    is describing, there is no one supporting member along the outside
    of the deck (parallel to the ledger), just the posts connected to
    either the decking or a joist. There should be a 4x6 or something
    like that. If there is a facia along the edge that the posts are
    attached to, that becomes the beam, but that's usually not enough.
    John

         I've found nothing in this notes file concerning the topic
    of deck squares. 
    
         I've decided to cover our backyard around our 'to be installed'
    above ground pool with deck squares (or blocks) to prevent grass,dirt, 
    etc...from being tracked into the pool. I want the surface to be wood for
    the 'deck' effect...and I think I will use pressure treated wood for 
    its durability. Wood is preferred over masonry type surfaces. I also
    want to use the squares so that the deck will be at groud level to
    give a patio effect as you walk out the back door of our reversed
    split house to the pool. The paito effect would be lost with a raised 
    deck around the pool.
    
         Given everything is still in the planning stages and given
    the above conditions, are there any suggestions on how to do this job
    right and make the deck last through 3 kids, New England weather, rot,
    etc...

The one thing that you might want to be careful of is using PT on a surface
that will get a lot of barefoot traffic, which could mean splinters.  There's 
been a lot of discussion in here on how dangerous PT is, so I guess 
whether this concerns you or not is how cautious you are on the PT issue.

Also, construction could leave a lot of PT sawdust around (that's bad stuff) 
and you CERTAINLY don't want to sand it to avoid splinters.  I assume that 
you're planning on using PT decking, which seems to be pretty smooth to me.

Perhaps you could use fir or mahogany decking for the surfaces that receive 
the traffic.  A lot of people do that for decks (PT for the support structure,
mahogany or fir for the surface).

Clay

    I used fir ( 1 x 4 ) as surface for my back porch. It's been up
    for almost 5 years. My 2 kids play at the porch all the time. I
    stain/restain the surface ones every 3 years with Cabot Decking
    Stain and it still looks beautiful as of today.
    

    On my first house I built the back deck using regular 2x4 studs
    as the deck material. Six years later I was replacing many of the
    rotted out 2x4's. I was using Cuprinol stain every spring (a new
    coat on the deck) and they still rotted out. In my new home I have
    used only PT for all the decks, 1 porch, 2 back decks & 1 pool deck.
    I see no problem with using PT lumber. The manufacturer specifies
    that once the PT wood has dried, there is no problem. After falling
    through the rotted decking on my fibst place, I personally feel
    that you run a higher risk of sdrious injurying from falling through
    a rotted fir decking then from being in contact with PT lumber.
    OK, you people with PT phobia open fire!
    

>    OK, you people with PT phobia open fire!
 
The choice is not: either construction grade 2x4's or PT.  There are a lot of 
other options.  When I build a deck on our house I'm certainly going to use PT 
for all joists and supporting timbers.  But for decking I'm going to use 1x4 
vertical grain (quartersawn) fir.  Installed properly, it will last nearly as 
long as PT, it looks much nicer, it won't splinter the way flat-sawn PT will,
and I don't have to even consider the posibilities of PT being less safe than 
claimed.  You pay a little more for those considerations, but to me they're 
worth it.

Paul

 Re: .3
    
  >>Six years later I was replacing many of the rotted out 2x4's.
  >>I was using Cuprinol stain every spring (a new coat on the deck)
  >>and they still rotted out.
    
      Question:  Did you only stain the surface or did you stain the
    underside and sides of the 2x4's?  If not, did you stain all sides
    of the wood when it was installed?
    
    -Jim
    

    If I remember correctly, I did not stain the entire 2x4, just the
    top and what ran down the sides. I built the deck in a checker board
    pattern with 4' by 4' squares, alternating the direction of the
    4', 2x4's. It looked nice but didn't hold up. I did use reqular
    KD 2x4's (spruce/fir) so perhaps something like redwood or cedar
    would of held up better. I don't mean to discount the concern over
    using PT but I do feel that it's dangers have been exaggerated.
    I have gotten many slivers while using PT lumber and they do seem
    to get more of a slite infection until the sliver is removed. I
    I realize that different people react differently. Does anyone out
    there know of anyone who had a bad reaction to PT lumber?
    

    Re: .22
    
    The issue of flashing betwen the deck and the house has been discused
    a lot in this file.  As these notes show, it's easy to screw up
    and have the siding, and the joists, rot out.  You can avoid all
    these problems by fastening the deck to the foundations, not the
    siding.  I like to keep a couple of inches of empty space between
    the wood of the deck and the wood of the house.    Stuff that I
    got from my house inspector recommended this too, so that you can
    notice the termites getting into the siding.
    
    I helped a neighbor anchor a ledger to his garage foundation.  He
    rented a rotohammer, and we drille the four or five 2" (I think)
    holes in about ten minutes.  We put in the expanding bolts refered
    to earlier, banged up the leger to mark the locations, drilled for
    them, and put on the nuts.  The whole job didn't take more tha a
    couple of hours.   He put a hot-tub on the deck.
    
    Do get a friend to hold the other end of that 14' ledger.  Do NOT
    try and use a regular drill.  Enjoy.
    
    

H E L P -  QUESTION ABOUT PRESERVING DECK FOUNDATION FOLLOWS....
			(i.e., HOW DO I DO-IT-MYSELF?)

We have an attached, windowed-in deck, an all-wood design, resting on vertical
posts. Some posts sit on concrete blocks, some have direct ground contact. The
deck floor is about 4 or 5' above ground. The entire exterior of the foundation
has wallboard around it, (it appears to extend the concrete foundation of the
house). The home inspector suggested treating the foundation with wood- 
preserver, to protect against rotting from wood-earth contact. 

My question:  How much of the foundation should be treated? The wallboard
protects the foundation from the weather pretty well, and I don't know how to
get the wood-preserver between the wood-earth junctures.  Will treating the
sides of the posts with wood preserver do any good?  Should I treat the entire
underside as well? (not a fun job!) 

thanx/j 


Secondary question: The enclosed foundation is a 11' x 13' x 4' enclosure that
seems to attract bugs looking for a home (like yellow jackets) .  I can see why,
but am wondering what I can do to make it less attractive.   Anyone solved this?

    
    I am going to southern california to help my brother build a deck
    for his new house.  (At least that's what i told my wife!) Anyway,
    the deck will be built directly on the ground (sort of)  Here are
    my questions:
    
    1. Should we bother to use footings for it (about 12X28) or is that
    unnecessary in california (no frost, etc.)  We figured we might
    use blocks to rest it on.
    
    2. Is it necessary to use pressure treated lumber (again due to
    the different climate) for the frame, or could we use regular spruce
    or fir. 
    
    The decking will be either cedar or redwood, as soon as by brother
    figures out which he wants.
    
    any suggestions would be welcomed.
    
    thanks,
    ed.
    

    
    
       I would definitly use the footings, if for no other reason
    it will be more sturdy and look a hell of lot better.
    Also the building codes in that area probably require a footing
    for and structure of that type.
       Pressure treated lumber is obviously going to last longer
    than ordinary lumber but in california it may be an unnecasary
    expence. 
       Remember though, when it comes time to sell a house little 
    touches like the footings and the pressure treated lumber can
    be good selling points for a house.
    
    
                                                 John C.
    

    Please remember that you are building in an earth quake zone. Find
    out about local codes if the deck is more than 2' off the ground.
    
    PT wood will last longer than the house but be sure to water proof
    the wood. Ours split with lotsa cracks and develops fine slivers
    but perhaps that's from the dry air and the high altitude sun.
    
    Another hint, no matter how lousy the wood may look, besure to put
    the hart wood facing down. I used nails and now I wished I used
    dry wall screws.
    
    /cal

The other reason for PT wood is insect resistance.  If the area you are
building the deck in is warm and humid, insects (and resistance to them)
can be a big factor in your choice of materials.  The pilings and metal
separators to keep the wood out of contact with the ground also help reduce
vulnerability to insect attack.  (Even PT wood can use help sometimes -
there are some MEAN bugs in the warm climes.)

/Dave

    re: .2
    
    I'd argue that the fastener of choice is glue-dipped spiral galvanized
    nails inserted by a pneumatic gun.  This essentially provides a
    screwed-and-glued join which will probably outlast the wood.
    
    Another point: be sure that anywhere PT lumber comes in contact
    with metal that that metal is galvanized.  Otherwise the treatment
    will eat it up.
    
    Pete

     There are some nice decking screws on the market. They're flat
    heads with philips drive made of aluminum. I've heard good things
    about them. Personnally I'd rather screw it down than nail it. I've
    screwed together a lot of things around my house with screws, and
    they always outlast nailing. Items nailed together get wobbly after
    awhile, due to wood expansion because of water and the sun and twisting
    with age. Screws always hold tight. There's nothing like a good
    tight screw.:-)
     If you decide to nail it be sure you don't allow the nails to go
    below the surface of the wood, otherwise water will sit on top of
    the nail head and cause the wood to rot and or the nail to rust
    off. (even though it's galvanized, don't forget that's just a coating
    and there's steel underneath). I've built a few houses in my time
    and have yet to see a deck you don't have to go back once or twice
    a year to pound the nails back down again. I'd go for the screws!

    At last, a reply from somebody in CA. That's an important point
    to make here. Things that I'd like to point out
    
    Regards the lumber: Redwood is dirt cheap in CA. Since I moved to
    MRO on temporary assignment one of the first things that I noticed
    is that the lumber prices are SUBSTANTIALLY different. Last year
    when I built my deck (20x25), I paid $.46.ft for con heart 2x6 redwood.
    Note: just to put things in perspective, that's less than the cost
    of pt fir here on the East coast.
    Redwood is naturally resistant to bugs and weather, therefore no
    problems there
    
    For the substrusture I suggest pt fir. The cost difference is not
    really significant, but doug fir is a better choice for strength,
    therefore the joist spacings and beams can be optimized. 
    
    Regards the footings...........frost and earthquakes are not really
    a problem, but climate still is as is soil conditions. There's nothing
    else in the world like adobe. In the summer it's as hard as a rock
    and cracks. In the winter it turns into glue when it's wet.
    What the footings have to cope with is this change from being very
    very dry, to totally waterlogged.
    
    Screws or nails..............what size of deck are we talking about
    here ? If we're talking big decks we're talking lotsa screws. I
    used >25lb nails....that I could cope with. Compare the time to
    nail with the time to screw. Also, what about vinyl coated (galvanized
    of course). The vinyl "glues" them into place.
    
    Good luck
    
    Ray Dodd
    Next year I'll be back in CA to build another deck

    I need to build a new wood bin on my front porch.  It serves as a
    holding area so that a week's worth of wood is not inside.  I remember
    seeing "corners" that will accept 2x4s; think of the bracket as
    "x, y and z".  This will allow me to tear it down easily next spring.
    
    I remember seeing this product in Pop Sci or Brookstone, but can't
    be sure.  Anyone seen 'em??
    
    Chris

    I bought two truckloads of 3" thick fir in random lengths from 8'
    to 14' from a salvage company.   Used it for deck (on concrete
    footings), for retaining walls, as well as rustic interior.  Let
    the fir bleach out by the sun for a year.  Used gas-moistened rag
    to clean "spots".  Purpose of bleaching was to lighten it prior
    to staining.  Otherwise too dark: would attract too much sun and
    be hot under bare feet in summer.  Light stain.  Perfect.  Wood,
    by the way, was tongue-and-groove.  Built at almost imperceptible
    slant -- to allow water to roll off edge.  Also used gutter/drain
    pipes through deck with accordion-like plastic 6" hose to run water
    away from building, etc.etc.  
    
    Additionally, in lieu of commercial stains, use plain old marine
    varnish -- not glossy, flat -- to protect wood.  If it protects
    yachts, it will protect decking.  Re-application necessary only
    after years, not annually or biannually as with stains advertised
    on TV.
    
    Good luck.  Signed Ghost by John
    

What salvage company did you buy the fir from?

Paul

    I have a deck in my recently purchased home which was built
    without flashing.  As a novice home DIY'er I have no experience
    in this area.  It must not be a big job because all of the
    carpenters that I've called have refused to accept the job because
    "it just wasn't worth their while."  This is worth my while, however,
    because carpenter ants made themselves comfortable in the area
    where the water was accumulating from the deck.  
    
    Does anyone know of any able carpenters who would be willing to
    take on this job before the onset of winter?  Or how about you
    fellow DIY noters?  Do any of you have the necessary experience
    to tackle such a job?  (The deck is not very large (approx. 12X12)
    and about 3-4 feet above the ground.)  I am more than willing to
    pay for the work and will lend any and all assistance necessary.
    
    Thanks in advance for your help.
    
    Peter
    
    P.S.  The house is located in Lancaster, MA (just west of Bolton,
    which is just west of Stow).

    Why not describe/illustrate your situation specifically?  Some of us
    may try to persuade you to do it yourself.

    During my home inspection (prior to my purchasing this house) the
    inspector found carpenter ants eating a wall in the cellar (one wall
    of the foundation is half concrete.  The other half is plywood covered
    with insulation.  The builder must have done this to leave the owners
    the option of installing full-length windows at some later time.).
    Upon further inspection, he saw that the builder had not "flashed
    the deck."  According to him, this was causing water to build up
    where the deck was joined to the house.  Since carpenter ants are
    moisture-seeking, they were attracted to this spot and began boring
    through the plywood.  So, I'm would like to install this flashing
    before the onset of winter to keep more water from accumulating
    and also to keep those critters out come spring.  
    
    Pictorially:
    
    	x = wood deck
    	| = sliding glass door
    	o = plywood
    	T = concrete
        A = ants                        |
                        		|
    					|
                                	|
    			  xxxxxxxxxxxxxxooA
    			  x		ooA
    			  x		oo
                          x		TT
    			  x             TT
    			  x             TT
    
    Hope this helps.
    
    
    			

    You should have a several inch drop from the sill of your slider
    to the deck. If you don't you have a problem.
    
    One thing that should have been done and can be retrofitted, though
    it's a pain, is to provide a space between the framing member
    which is attached to the house and the house. You can temporarily
    support the deck, remove the framing member and re-install it
    using 1/2 or 3/4 inch spacers in the same way you would install
    a gutter. This prevents the water from accumulating between the
    siding and the deck framing.
    
    Alan

    RE. -3
     
    "You should have a several inch drop from the sill of you slider
     to  the deck.  If you don't you have a problem."
    
    Can you please expand on this. What is the problem?
    
    Thanks, 
    
    Kathy

re: .4 & .5
    
    I consider this a requirement rather than a recommendation.
    
    If the sill is flush with the surface of the deck water can
    backup under the sill and . . . the ants go marching one by one...
    not to mention destroying your sub-floor etc. The point of contact
    between the sill and the floor/wall is not water tight. You can
    and should, caulk it, but, caulk is prone to leaking when exposed
    to standing water and if it freezes in winter the ice can destroy
    the caulk completely. The 2" mentioned in .5 is fine snow melt
    won't usually back up that deep on a deck.
    
    
    This is kinda like puting shingles on a flat roof.
    
    Alan    				
    				

    We finished adding a 15x35 deck to our house a month ago and someone
    dumped a load of snow on it a couple nights ago.  I cleared it off
    and now have a question that I haven't seen in here:
    
    Is it OK to throw salt or calcium chloride around on the deck? 
    It's all .40 PT but I've never seen anything mentioned about this.
    Should I worry about any chemical reaction with the preservative,
    or staining, or anything else?
    
    Thanks,
    Pete

    Gee, I don't use my deck when it is covered with snow.  Am I missing
    something (sunbathing) {:-).  I just wait for the guy who dumped
    the snow on my deck to take it off again.  {:-) (Except last winter
    when it was 2 feet up the sliders. :-( )
    
    Stan

    	Some of us use our deck as the rear entrance to our homes.
    	I also keep my grill out on it all year round as I like barbecued 
    food even in the winter.
    
    	As far as keeping ice off its less of a problem then on walks
    or driveways because the spacing between boards feeps water build
    up to a minimum. Still I have used salt in a few spots when I didn't
    shovel and we got rain and then a freeze (ie 6 inces of ice) with
    no problem. In all cases just don't go overboard.
    
    
    		We even cook the Thanksgiving turkey and Christmas
    	ham on the grill.
    
    					...Dave
    
    

If you are concerned about damage, and only want to prevent slipping, try 
kitty litter.  Get the real cheap unscented variety.  It works great, but it 
does help to have a small rug just inside the door for wiping the shoes off.

						     
							- JP

ps No.  Neither my cats nor any of the neighborhood cats have ever...

    
    
    		Ditto on .2, ME TOO !!!!!

    I am building a new porch and would like to know how much of a span
    I can have between the post. I am using 4 x 6 post with 3-2x6 beams.
    I would like to have a 12 ft span if possible.
    art
    

sorry, but not enough information...

are you talking about span above the ground or the span below the roof?  in both
cases, 3 2X6's don't sound particularly strong.  posts are cheap enough, so why
not put in another and have supports at 6'?

the only negative for more posts that I can think of is the asthetics, which
might make it unacceptable.

on the positive side, you'd get something MUCH stronger.

-mark

    I don't know the details of what you are trying to build but you
    shouldn't go anymore than 8ft. apart on posts supporting a floor
    especially if your using 2x6's for beam. 
    
    Bob

    If you're in a town that requires builing permits, check with the
    the building department.  Their opinion counts for a whole lot more
    than ours.  I was required to use 4 2x10s for a 14 foot span.
    
    Clay

    As deck season approaches, I am starting to plan a new deck.
    Can someone give me alternative wood recommendations for the deck
    surface as opposed to PT lumber. Also, are there places, such as
    New Engalnd Hardwoods, that sell it for cheaper than the local lumber
    yard? Can you save big bucks by buying unplaned redwood? If you
    recommend a wood, could you please comment on what color it ages
    to and how much upkeep is required? Also since there are no gutters
    on the house, will the deck get seriously damaged by melting snow?
    
    Thanks in advance
    
    Tim_with_a_lot_of_questions
    

1x4 vertical grain fir is about the best choice, or at least it used to be.  
Vertical grain means that it's quartersawn, or that the grain is perpendicular 
to the face.  This prevents the long slivers that can result when the grain is 
almost parallel to the face.  As far as I know, there aren't really any clear 
finishes suitable for a deck surface, so the color that it ages doesn't really
matter.

Also, (and I think I've entered this in here somewhere before), there are a 
couple of things you can do to prevent rot that aren't usually done.  The real
rot-prone areas are anywhere that water can get in and stay there (duh).  One 
of these is the junction between the decking and the joists.  Many people 
recommend joist tape (tarpaper strips) laid on the joists before putting down 
the decking, but I don't really understand why this works - you still have the 
space there for water to settle.  I've read of people having great success 
laying a bead of roofing cement on the joists and setting the decking in that - 
the space is sealed so that no water can get in in the first place.  The one 
problem with that is that you have to be very careful otherwise you'll get the 
tar all over everything.

Another place that really invites rot is the joint where two pieces of decking 
join over a joist.  This is especially bad because it's end-grain to end-grain,
which absorbs the water much better, and even worse both pieces have been 
nailed through further opening them up.  This spot will almost always be the 
first to go.  You can avoid this with just a little extra expense.  Figure your 
joist sizing for 12" centers instead of 16" centers, and then lay the joists 
with alternating 16" and 8" centers.  Lay them out so that the 16" spaces are
at the outside edges of the deck.  This will allow you to have the joints 
between decking boards fall in the middle of the 8" space, where the end grain 
won't ever stay soaked.  The reason for the alternate 16" and 8" spacing is so 
that the free ends of the decking boards will only be unsupported for 3", 
instead of the 5" they'd be if the joists were on even 12" centers.  Doing it 
this way will cost a little more for the extra joists, but you'll offset that 
somewhat because: 1) the joists can be smaller, and 2) you'll have less waste 
on the decking.  It usually comes in multiples of 2', and you'll be able to
completely use every piece.  On 16" centers you wind up having to cut some
pieces to get them to land on a joist at both ends.  

In case that was hard to follow, it would look like this:

	   joists
	 /	  \
	||   16"  || 8" ||   16"  || 8" ||   16"  || 8" ||   16"  ||
	||        ||    ||        ||    ||        ||    ||        ||
	||        ||    ||        ||    ||        ||    ||        ||
	||        ||    ||        ||    ||        ||    ||        ||
       ------------------------------  ------------------------------
      |     Decking                  ||                              |
       ------------------------------  ------------------------------
	||        ||    ||        ||    ||        ||    ||        ||

      |       2'      |       2'      |       2'      |      2'      |

Paul

    1) The green will turn gray before too long.  And you can't beat
    PT lumber for longevity.  This is still the most cost effective
    long term solution.
    
    2) VG fir.  Covered by Paul in .-1
    
    3) Redwood is VERY expensive and not great for decking because it's
    very soft and will show wear very quickly.  You will also need to use
    2*X nominal size to get the same strength as 1*X fir.  (Redwood is a
    very over-rated wood for it's price. Fir is cheaper, much stronger, and
    (little known fact) just as moisture-resistant as redwood). 

    4) Cedar.  Stronger than redwood, weaker than fir. Red cedar is
    also very moisture resistant.  Don't know where it stands pricewise
    - it's used much more on the West Coast.  You can leave it unfinished
    and it weathers to a nice silvery gray.  Might be the best looking
    choice, but that's a matter of personal taste.    

    > Also since there are no gutters on the house will the deck be
    > seriously damaged by melting snow.
    
    You should add gutters if you're going to have water running off
    the roof onto the deck.  Otherwise your siding will be discolored
    very quickly about 4 feet up from the deck from water splashing
    on it.  Come see mine.  
    

    Thanks Paul for the suggestion of staggering the joists. I still
    have one problem left. The deck will be built over the hatch door
    for the basement. Anyone have any good trap door designs?
    The deck will look like this, hopefully ...
    
                         _______
                        /       \
    		       /         \
    ------------------|           |
                      |   Deck    |
          Porch       |    ___    |
                      |   |   |   |
                      |   | H |   |
                      ----------------------------
    
    				House
    
    The H represents the hatch to the basement and the deck will only
    be about 1' to 1 1/2' off the ground. Any ideas?
    
    Thanks in advance
    
    Tim
    

    I am starting to think ahead to next summer's projects.  I'm going
    to take it easy this summer and just gather ideas.  Specifically,
    I want to replace a window in my living room with sliding doors
    (or atrium doors) and build a deck off the living room.  Because
    of the slope of the land, this door will not be at ground level,
    but rather half a story up (the house is like a split level on this
    side).  Anyway, the project may not get done all at once, but rather
    may get done in stages, depending on how much money I can scrape
    together.  
    
    IF I break the project into 2 stages, that is:
    	1. Replacing window with sliding doors
    	2. Building the deck
    which part should I do first?
    
    Does it matter?  Would I be smarter to install the door first, so
    that I know exactly where the door threshold will be and can then
    build the deck accordingly.  Or should I build the deck first so
    that I can stand on the deck and make it easier to install the door.
    
    Which would YOU do first?

    I've been in your situation and built the deck first. It made working
    on the door a lot easier. Its usually not too much of a problem
    to calculate where the bottom of the slider will be and plan
    accordingly.
    
    Eric

    
    
    			-<DECK FOR EASE>-
    
    	I just finished the same project last July.  I remove an existing
    window and replaced it with 6 foot sliders.  Then I attatched a
    10x12 deck.  It worked out fine, except I had to make a platform
    for the outside work.  My sliders are 5+ feet off the ground.  If
    I had to do it again, I would build the deck first.  It is to much
    calculation to find the place for the sliders,  just find the bottom
    of the floor inside and mark the outside and leave for step down.
    
    
    DAN
    
    

    Check with your fire department. They may require that an exit have
    stairs to get to the ground.
    
    Steve
    

    re:.4  My deck will actually be a 2 level arrangement so it will
    have steps that lead to the ground.
    
    re: .1-.3
    Thanks.  That's just what I wanted to hear.  It sounds like the
    concensus is to build the deck first. In the mean time, this summer
    I'm going to visit as many decks as I can to decide exactly how
    I want mine to look.  I'll start sketching ideas so that by next
    year I'll be ready to build.

I've got a 16' x 19' concrete foundation in my back yard that used to support
a greenhouse.  I'd like to deck it over.

My problem is how to incorporate the foundation into the support structure
of the deck.  I'd like to lay my support beams across the 16' span.  But
how will I anchor them to the foundation?  The foundation 'walls' are about
8" thick and 8" high.  The top of each 'wall' is kind of ragged and uneven.

-Would some kind of construction adhesive adequately hold the beams to the
 foundation, despite the roughness of the surface?

-Should I consider adding small concrete footings to the existing foundation,
and sink post anchors into the new footings, securing the beams to the anchors?
If so, do I need to use reebar or something to make sure the footings stay
attached to the foundation?

-What other ways are there to accomplish this?

BTW, I'd like to keep the deck as low to the ground as possible.

Thanks for your help,

-Brian

    I'd drill some holes in the 'foundation' and screw some wood blocks
    with big lag bolts and lead anchors into the foundation.  From there,
    you could nail everything to that.  
    
    Pouring concrete on top of cured concrete is really not a great
    idea unless you want to pour a couple of feet.  It'd probably break
    off over the years.
    
    
    With the bolts and the weight of the deck, things should stay put
    for a long while.
    
    
    -bill

    
    
    	The proper way to secure joists to a foundation is to;
    
    	1. Get 2x6 pressure treated stock.  The 2x6's will follow the
    	   outside perimeter of the foundation wall.  
    
    		--------------
    		|	     |
    		|	     | <--- 2x6 pt sill
    		--------------
		=====================
    		|		    |  inside of concrete wall
    	        |		    |
    		|		    |
    	        |		    |
    
	   Use a Hilti tool to fasten the 2x6 to the concrete. This is
    	   a gun like tool that will shoot a nail into the concrete.
    
    	2. Next you will lay the joist ontop of the 2x6's.  For a 16'
    	   span, you will need 2x12" placed 16" on center. 
    
    		   ----------------------------------------------------
    		   |
		   |
    		   |     2x12 joist
    		   |
    		   |__________________________________________________
       		--------------
    		|	     |
    		|	     | <--- 2x6 pt  sill
    		--------------
		=====================
    		|		    |  inside of concrete wall
    	        |		    |
    		|		    |
    	        |		    |
    
    	Toenail the 2x12 to the PT 2x6 sill.  Be sure to leave a
    	1 1/2" space between the outside edge of the pt sill and the
    	end of the 2x12.
    
    	3. Then box the entire perimeter with additional 2x/12's nailing
    	   them into the ends of the joists as follows
    
    		+--+----------------------------------------------------
    	2x12 -->|  ||
	box	|  ||
        sill	|  ||     2x12 joist
    		|  ||
    		|__||__________________________________________________
       		--------------
    		|	     |
    		|	     | <--- 2x6 pt sill
    		--------------
		=====================
    		|		    |  inside of concrete wall
    	        |		    |
    		|		    |
    	        |		    |
    
    	4.  You are then ready to deck the joist with either 3/4" T&G
    	    exterior grade plywood or some other form a decking
    	    material.
    
    
    	Hope this helps.
    
    	Tony.

Re:  .2

When you said that you shoot the nail into the concret, you are not kidding.
These use the equivalent of a .22 caliber bullet to shoot nails.  

I was working on installing a computer floor one time, when a guy was using 
one of these guns to install strapping to a concret block wall that had been
covered with plasterboard.  He did not know that some one had knocked a 
hole into one of the blocks for wire access.. The nail went through 2 sheets 
of plasterboard, across a room and embed into another wall.

YOU CAN NOT USE TO MUCH SAFETY AROUND ONE OF THESE GUNS!!

Brian

    Yowsa! All those 2 by 12 are gonna be pretty expensive, and may
    get twisty. Would another alternative be to pour some footings
    down the middle of the foundation (3 footings along the 19 foot
    length), then 4 by 6 beams across the 16 foot span (resting on
    the footings in the middle allowing for an 8 foot span) and 
    2 by 8 (or maybe 2 by 6) joists across the beams? Those joists
    would only span about 4.5 or 5 feet.
    
    John

Thanks for the replies so far.  I'm curious to hear any responses to John's
suggestion in .4.

-Also, if I screw or nail-gun the sill onto the 'foundation,' do you think the
 uneveness of the concrete will be a factor?  (It has a kind of uneven ridge
 along the top.)

-If I end up using lag bolts rather than the Hilti tool, got any suggestions
 on what kind of drill and bit I should rent for the job?

Thanks again,

-Brian 

    	Re: .4
    	Instead of running the joists the 19 foot length, put the footings
    following the 19 foot side as said in .4 but then put a laminated
    beam down the 19 foot side also, and then come off to the 16 foot
    sides with 8 foot 2xwhatever floor joists.  It would save some cutting
    and wasted wood.
    	Before you decide on anything though, check out the price of
    the concrete vs 2x12, and don't forget to add in extra work and
    aggravation with the concrete method.  One catch I can think of
    with the concrete, is that you'll have to be careful to make sure
    that the footings are at the right height to match the rim joist  
    with the floor joists, after the beam is on the footings, and the
    joists are on the beam.
    	I can't remember if you said what this was going to be used
    for.  If not, it would be helpful to know, for type of materials
    etc.
    	I don't see a problem with the uneveness of the foundation.
    Again, it would depend on what this is going to be used for, but
    if it was *real* bad, you could add a leveling concrete to it,
    or just shim.  If it's not *that* bad, I wouldn't worry about it.
    You might want to run a line down the sides with a line level, and
    take some measurements to see how far off it really is.
    
    

  There's some concrete-like stuff you can use to smooth out the top of
  the foundation, as long as the biggest depression is no deeper than an
  inch or so.  The brand name we used was Levelastic.  Six years ago we
  used it on top of our greenhouse foundation wall (the pour was a bit
  rough) and it was still in perfect shape when we took the greenhouse
  off to put up an addition.

  JP

    RE. 6
    
    That's a decent alternative as well. You could probably go with
    2 footings, giving that beam a span of 6 feet a couple inches.
    I don't think it would be too tough working with the footings,
    though. You just find the center and hold a line across the
    existing foundation. Dig, and place the sonotubes so they come
    right up to the line. Fill with concrete and voila! Place the beam
    across each end of your foundation and concrete piers.
    The price difference depends on which way you run your beams and
    joists, how many beams, sonotubes and concrete. A 19 or 20 foot
    4 by 6 or 8 beam could run you big bucks.
    You may spend more using concrete and one or more beams, rather
    than big joists and no beams; I just prefer dealing with shorter
    spans and narrower lumber - and the solid feel you get with beams
    supporting the center.

    John    

I'm now trying to design some stairs dropping five feet off the back of the
deck and across a four foot wide bank to the lawn.  Can y'all give me some help
on the rise/run calculations? 

The physical set-up is like this:

joist
========[] deck beam
	 |30" concrete foundation
	 |
	 | 48" dirt bank
	 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
			  )30" rockwall
			  )
			  )      lawn
			  '''''''''''''''''''''''''''

- What sort of rise/run pattern will I need to get my cutout stringer to bridge
from the deck to the very base of the rockwall w/o extending too far onto the
lawn? 

- To keep the stairs in tight, should I consider landing on the bank and
then descending down to the lawn?

- Any other tips on designing deck stairs?

.Brian.

    We are adding a deck to our house this year and are trying to decide
    if we want a sliding door or atrium doors.  The advantage for the
    slider seems to be that the opening is larger especially since atrium
    doors only have one panel that opens (they don't seem to come with 
    adjoining opening panels unless we get real french doors that cost a 
    small fortune).
    
    Does anyone have any opinions or pros and cons to help us decide
    which way would be best?  We've been hearing that sliders don't
    seal well, and that is a concern, so I am especially interested
    in input around that.
    
    Thanks,
    Cathy 

    I think a lot depends on the "look" you want.  If the door is from
    a more 'formal' room, like the living room, or dining room, then
    I think the atrium doors look nicer.  If its from a more informal
    den/recroom, then you may want sliders.  I have atrium doors off
    my living room, and love them.  They are Morgan 'Swingset' doors,so
    that both panels open if you want, as the stationary side is held
    top and bottom by sliding latches (up/down into the framing).  
    I don't know what your price range is, but these vary from about
    $500--1100 depending on style you want.
    

I have the andersen French Sliders (or whatever you call them).  With the grills
it's damned close to impossible to tell they're not hinged.  They even have the
same type of brass handle as on the Atrium doors and the seal is excellent.
Intsallation is a piece of cake.  Once you're got the opening, you can get one
of these installed in under a few hours.

-mark

    I agree with .3, but the plant is not the only problem. When we
    had our house built, we were supposed to get "french doors" in the
    dining area. We decided to get sliders because the door would have
    been swinging in against the dining table all the time. However,
    if you have enough room to keep furniture or plants away from the
    door, go for it. They do seem to seal better than sliders and look
    more formal. One advantage to the slider is that you can have a
    screen door without severely affecting it's appearance. A french
    door would look awful with screens.

    Either type will work well, if you buy from a quality company.
    
    Re: space considerations:
    
    An Atrium door requires space to swing open.
    
    A sliding glass door requires wall space to slide open.
    
    Which is better depends on your particular application.  Note that
    you can buy an Atrium door that will require only 3' of wall space,
    whereas the smallest sliding glass door requires 5--6' of wall space.
    We are doing remodeling now ourselves, and have opted for an Atrium
    door for just this reason.

        
    jdr

3' door?  I think we've once against stumbled into a vocabulary problem.  When I
use the word Atrium I'm assuming that everyone's using it the same way.  There 
is no such thing as an Atrium door, per se.  There is a company that makes a
style called Atrium which many other vendors have since copied.  It's typically
6 feet wide and had 2 panels, one fixed and one hinged.  When I installed on in
my last house I wanted to use minimal space and special ordered the 5 foot one.

If you're talking 3 feet, you're simply talking a plain, vanilla outside door
that has a full glass and grills.  My opinion...

-mark

    	Re .6
    
    	Once again I have a question as to the definition being used
    for an Atrium door. What you described as a 3 foot atrium door
    I would consider just a regular entry door with full glass.
    	Every time I've looked at catalogs and displays Atrium
    doors were described/shown as a fixed pannel and a swinging
    pannel with the hinge in the center of the 2 pannels. Now
    granted some manufactures may call a glass swinging door a atrium
    door but I thing the majority would consider it a simple entry
    door.
    	
    	Just trying to clear up what were talking about.
    
    	Dave... Who has a glass (not atrium) door for his walk out basement
    
    

    In our new addition, we put a wood "French" door (two 3 foot panels
    with one hinged) and we are very happy with the way it seals/looks,
    etc. We had the room to put a swinging door in. I do agree that
    these type of doors "work" best beceause there is no rollers and
    tracks to get damaged. But if you do not have the room there ARE
    good quality sliders. I wood suggest a wood slider because aluminum
    sliders get "cold" in winter and can "sweat". Whatever you decide
    do yourself a favor, spend the cash and get a GOOD door or you WILL
    regret getting a "cheap" door.
    
    my $.02
    Bob
    

    
    	Gee, not to go down a rathole with this thing but:
    
    	I believe .9 refers to an atrium door...(two 3 foot panels with
    	one hinged)...
    
    	a french door would have two 3 foot panes with both hinged on
    	the frame side.

    Thanks for the quick replies.  From the things I've just read, I
    think that a slider will fit the needs the best.  The swing for
    an atrium door wouldn't be a problem, but I would like to be able
    to leave it open in the summer, so would need a screen.   I can
    see where the slider would be better for that.  Also, I have already
    decided to get the wooden grates for the doors so that they match
    the rest of the house, and I've been looking at the Andersen version
    which someone said they have.  That one seems to work, and it comes
    in the same size as the current window, so the rough opening will
    not need to be changed.
    
    I appreciate all the input and welcome more.  Thanks for the help.
    
    Cathy

>        	Gee, not to go down a rathole with this thing but:
    
>    	I believe .9 refers to an atrium door...(two 3 foot panels with
>    	one hinged)...
    
>    	a french door would have two 3 foot panes with both hinged on
>    	the frame side.

    We go through this every year around this time when people start
    on their spring improvements.  
    I know what this file needs:  A section on definitions.
    
    "atrium door":  A door leading out to an atrium.

    "Atrium Door":  A manufacturer who makes prehung doors in various widths
    with one or more fixed sections and one swing door.

    "french doors":  Two doors next to each other each hinged on their outside
    edge.  When both doors are open there is a single wide opening with
    no jamb between them.

    Don't ask me for my source because I made this up.
    

    RE .12
    Whadya call the type that look like "french doors", but have one
    fixed and one swinging panel?
    
    John

    	Now that you've made up your mind here's a little more info
    to confuse you.
    
    	You can still get a screen for an atrium door. It works just
    like the screen on a slider (ie it slides from the opening side
    to the fixed pannel side)
    
    
    	One other thought no one has mentioned is that sliding doors
    are extremly poor for security. Now agreeded any glass door is
    at risk for being broken into but the latch on sliding doors make
    it very easy to lift the door out of it's track and un latch it.
    With an atrium door you can use a 2 key deadbolt which is much more
    secure. How many of you with sliders put cut to length boards in
    the track. This works fine for aux doors but is a pain if it's
    a main entrance.
    
    	The one good slider I've seen is the 'Marvin' wood slider. It
    has metal frame with wood over it and has a built in deadbolt system
    which is kind of like a garage door lock. It latches with a steel
    bar that goes into the head and toe jams. This is a real nice door
    but is the most expensive slider I've seen. Some where in the neighbor
    hood of 900-1100 for a 6 footer.
    
    
    			Now your realy confused...
    
    ...Dave
    

	From the official DEC (office edition) American Heritage Dictionary.

	Atrium - an open central court esp. in an ancient roman house.

		---------------------------------------------

	Technically, I suppose *any* door that leads to an open central
	court, especially if you happen to own an ancient roman house,
	would qualify as an atrium door.


	However, realisticly speaking, in my experience the following
	descriptions apply.


	Door - a single movable panel that pivots on hinges

	sliding door -  one or more movable panels that do not pivot on
			hinges, but slide horizontally.  One or more
			panels may be stationary, but at least one panel
			must slide.

	atrium door -   a doorway made up of one or more stationary panels
			and *one* movable panel that pivots on hinges.
			On a two panel unit, with one stationary and one
			movable panel, the hinges are located in the middle
			of the unit and the door handle is located on the
			frame side of the unit. (but only on *one* side)

	french door -   a doorway made up of at least two movable panels
			that pivot on hinges, and open opposite of each
			other.  On a two panel unit, hinges are located
			on the frame side of the unit (on both doors) and
			door handles are located in the middle of the unit.
			Sometimes, only the primary movable panel will have
			a door handle and the secondary movable panel will
			have internal latches to keep it closed, however,
			*both* movable panels can be opened, and stay opened,
			at the same time.


	Some morals:

		If it only *looks* like a french door, it may not necessarily
		*be* a french door.  (most atrium doors I've seen *look* like
		the more expensive french door)

		What is typically sold and called an atrium door, is one in
		which *only one* movable panel swings on hinges.

		What is typically sold and called a french door, is one in
		which *two* movable panels swing on hinges, in opposite dir-
		ections, and can be opened or closed at the same time.


	Next weeks lesson:

		folding doors
		swinging doors

    re: .15
    
    Pretty good definitions as far as they go, but you left out several:
    
    	French door - 	Any door used in the country previously known
    			as Gaul.
    
    	French Lick door - Any door used in Larry Bird's home town.
    
    	French kiss door - This is left as exercise for the student.
    
    Obviously, these are all doors leading to ratholes.
    
    Stan

    
    now that we're in one (rathole), I might as well add my ...
    
    Re: .15
    
    Methinks those definitions are a bit too broad.
    
    Cause me front doors (two of them, hinged on the frame, both
    swinging outward from the center to expose one large doorway)
    fit thy definition for French doors, see, except you can't see
    out of'em. No one I know would call them French doors. 
    
    Methinks ye needs to add something about panes of glass.
    

    
    You can see out of my doors, but there is only one (~ 15" by 30") 
    window in each (bigger than the average) door.
    

    	Re .16
    
    	All of the definitions so far have been describing doors with
    full veiw glass so it was an easy omission.
    
    	As far as the door on the front of your house I seem to remember
    the term 'double doors' used in real estate ads.
    
    	Now that we seem to have left the 'barn door' open (so to speak)
    what about definitions for:
    
    	Pocket doors	(not to be confused with pick-pocket doors)
    	Bi-fold doors	(not to mention tri-fold and blind-fold)
    	Over-head doors (and underhanded)
    	and need us not forget storm doors
    
    				...Dave
    
    		Oh what a tangle web we've weaved...
    
    

                 
    	RE: .17
    
    	Sorry, forgot the disclaimer;
    
    		Your description, description provided by friends, workers,
    	lawyers, dictionarys, and your lumberyard, be it local or otherwise,
    	may vary.      
    

    I thought all of the comments about sliding vs. atrium were good
that is until about .14. For my two sense worth, an atrium door doesn't
    work well if you want a thick area rug near the swinging door. You
    probably could trim it but mine has nice weather stripping on both
    the door and the threshold.      

A couple of days ago, one of my wife's friends came over.  He now works for
AMRE Remodeling.  This firm (based in Texas) has been contracted by Sears to
do the Sears "Designer Decks".  You've perhaps received flyers in the mail
about them or seen their ads on TV.  Now, I normally would say "No way I'd
ever have Sears build my deck!", but I'd heard some interesting things about
their designs and I am not going to have time to do it myself as I had hoped,
so I went ahead and asked my wife to invite her friend over.

Has anyone else had experience with the Sears Designer Decks?  What did
you think?  I've got a contractor coming over this weekend to give me
a quote using regular construction techniques, so I'll have something to
compare it with.

These decks are not cheap.  They do look nice (especially a parquet deck
arangement that can be created) - at least in pictures.  He was willing
to give me a nearby reference where I could go and check out the real thing.
The decks are "pre-fab".  The pieces are constructed at a factory somewhere
near Hingham (can't remember the actual town name) and it takes very little
time to assemble on site.

They use some "unusual" techniques to construct the decks that I thought
I'd ask your opinion of.  They have patented the techniques and most of
the concepts made good sense to me.  So, here are some of the main points:

1.  The wood is all PT produced by Osmose and is treated with a 100%
  oxide-pure CCA-C preservative (Arsenic Pentoxide-based).  I think the
  AWPA retention is .40pcf for everything, but our friend didn't know too
  much about it (I knew since I have acess to this great notes file ;-)).
  It is all #1 grade Southern Yellow Pine.  You get a 40-year warranty on
  the wood.

2.  The nails are galvanized, screw-shank with an epoxy coating.  They use
  a gun to shoot them into the wood.  Supposedly, the friction from shooting
  them in heats the epoxy coating which seals the nail in, thus preventing
  water from seeping in around the nails.


3.  Footings/posts:
                      ||||
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~||||~~~~~~~~~~~ (ground level)
     ^                ||||
     |                |||| <-- 3 2x4's layered and laminated with epoxy
  42"-48"             ||||
     |              ========
     |              |      |  <-- 8"x12" concrete piers
     v              ========
                   oooooooooo
                  oooooooooooo

  They use 3 2x4's rather than a 4x4 because they feel that it is stronger and
  that PT treatment of 4x4's does not always make it to the core.  Since the
  end of the post would be just resting on the concrete pier, they didn't want
  to have any decay of the core.  Sounds to me like they just don't want to
  treat the end cuts with preservative.  What do you think?

4.  The decking is all 2x4's arranged in 4' x 4' squares.  They can be arranged
  to make a parquet deck.  Each 4' x 4' square is composed of 12 2x4's laid
  across 3 2x4's as follows:

          || || || || ... ||
         =||=||=||=||=...=||=
          || || || || ... ||
          || || || || ... ||
         =||=||=||=||=...=||=
          || || || || ... ||
          || || || || ... ||
         =||=||=||=||=...=||=
          || || || || ... ||

5.  Probably the most interesting thing about the construction is that they
  use no joist hangers or butt joints.  They call their technigue "wood-on-
  wood construction" creating a "free-floating understructure".  The sides of
  the deck are 2x10's with an attached 2x4.  The joists are 2x10's with
  a 2x4 attached to each side.

          ==================================  <-- 2x10 side with single 2x4
          |          | 4' x 4'  |          |
 2x10 w/  |          |  holes   |          |
 one 2x4  |          |          |          |
   |      |================================|
   +----> |          |          | ^2x10 w/ |
          |          |          |  two 2x4s|
          |          |          | <---     |
          ==================================  <-- looked like a butt joint to me
						 except they use a beveled 2x4
						 on the end and use lag screws
						 to hold it together

  The joists attach to the sides as follows:
  
           side                 joist
              _             __________________
             | |           |
             | |   <----   |       2x10
             | |_          |__________________
             | |_|           |________________ <-- 2x4
             |_|^            |________________
              ^ |           ^
              | |_          |
            2x10  |      notch in 2x10
                 2x4

  The notched 2x10 joist rests on the 2x4 attached to the 2x10 side.  The
  4' square deck pieces are then dropped into the 4' x 4' holes.  They
  secure everything by toenailing, which disturbed me.  They go to great
  lengths to avoid nailing everything so that a) the wood can expand and
  contract and b) the 2x4's won't split or have nail holes where water can
  penetrate (as you might have with joist hangers).  Maybe our friend was
  wrong about the toenailing.


6.  They have various options for railings, benches, stairs, and step pads
  and they all looked fairly sound to me.  Most rails used 4-1/2" spaced 2x2's.
  Stairs had an 8" rise and 9-1/4" run.


Boy, drawing character-cell pictures is a pain!
    

	Some thoughts:

	2) NAILS -
		I think the nails put in by the nail gun are superior
		to nailing by hand.  When I built my house, the framer
		used a nail gun, and just for kicks I tried taking out
		some nails on some scrap lumber.  It was extremely dif-
		ficult, not impossible, but extremely difficult.  In
		comparison, some nails that I had banged in by hand came
		out with much less effort.

	3) FOOTINGS - 
		I'm not too crazy about the footing plan.  The best way is
		to build up with concrete above ground level, then use a
		metal post holder to keep the wood off the ground and the
		concrete.  The wood warranty only allows for a new piece
		of lumber if it rots out.  You still have to take it apart,
		and replace it.  Why not just keep it out of the ground
		altogether.

	4) DECKING -
		I think this is purely a matter of taste.  If you like the
		design, go for it.  The only thing I would question, is the
		ease of maintenance if one piece of wood goes bad ten years
		down the road.  Will you be able to replace the single piece
		of wood, or will the entire 4x4 section have to be replaced?

	5) JOISTS -
		Why 2x10's ?  Is the deck that big? (over 12 feet from both
		supporting points)  Seems the 2x4 blocking for their wood
		on wood construction simply adds money to the project, but
		actually it is their method for pre-fab construction.  The
		2x10's must come with the 2x4's attached.  Put up the joists,
		drop in the 4x4 decking squares, fasten here, fasten there,
		done.  It's a neat idea, don't get me wrong, but think about
		where your money is going.  Your paying for an awful lot of
		excess material, for *their* convenience, hence your comment
		"their not cheap".  I don't believe their process is provid-
		ing any more or less structural integrity than other more
		typical construction techniques.

	6) STAIRS | 2X2's -
		8 inch riser, 9inch step is the most common one you'll find.
		Your cellar stairs are probably the same thing.  The steps
		are easy.  Just cut 2x10's to the right length.  The rails
		are typical ballusters 6 inch on center.


	If you like it, great.  If price is a question, I'm sure you would
	find out through a little research that regular construction tech-
	niques would save you money.

    One comment on the laminated posts.  The 4x4 posts on my deck have
    twisted considerably (the deck is 8' off the ground).  Laminating
    thin stock to  build up a thick piece is a good way to avoid much
    of the twisting and warping because the individual pieces tend to
    counteract each other.
    
    Also, it's hard to find #1 grade PT 4x4s.  The #2 grade that is
    typical is not as nice looking.  By laminating 2x4's, they can get
    a "#1" grade post.  It also simplifies their inventory control and
    expense, since they are using 2x4's elsewhere in the decks.
    
    Bob
     

    Can you give us some costs for their decks?
    Say, x per square feet of decking, x for y number of feet of benches,
    etc, etc?
    
    John

    RE: .7 and .8:
    
>    < Note 2245.7 by NETMAN::SEGER "this space intentionally left blank" >
>                  -< If it's 3 feet, it's not an Atrium door >-
>
>3' door?  I think we've once against stumbled into a vocabulary problem.

    
    Wrong.  A company sells something called The Atrium Door, which
    is a glass door on a hinge with a nice brass handle and a deadbolt.
    The Atrium Door is both the trademarked name and the type of door
    that it is.
    
    They sell Atrium Doors in various widths, with various numbers of
    panels, and with various panel widths.
    
    You can buy a single movable-panel Atrium Door.  The one and only
    panel moves on hinges (i.e., is the door).  Total wall space used
    = 35 3/4 inches.
    
    
    jdr

    
    p.s. The point about security of glass doors vs. Atrium doors a
    while back was a good one.  Although you can easily beef up a sliding
    glass door yourself.

    	If you like the look of all the little 4x4's great. But keep
    one thing in mind, all those little squares will create a lot of
    end cuts/but joints in the decking. If their QC is not real good
    you will get them at slightly different hights with greater
    chances to trip and catch on the ends. This can be a big problem
    if you live in an area where it snows and you are in the habit
    of shoveling the deck off.
    
    
    			...Dave
    

Well I had someone come to my house one nite to give me the salespitch.
I believe that they make a good solid product, but I also believe that
(at least for my purposes) their product is a bit of an overkill. Right
now, I think a deck that will last 40 years is low on my priority list.
What I was looking for was something that I could convert to a screened
in porch (and possibly) an enclosed family room in the future.

Their presentation is a bit of a hard-sell - they are low-key but they
have all of the lines that they learned from salesman school to combat
anything negative that you have to say about the product.

The price I was quoted turned out to be about $22 a square foot, which
I think is probably reasonable, tho I haven't checked that out with
other companies. Of course, that's with the current 15% discount and
tonite's_special_if_you_sign_before_I_leave_15% discount too.

But they try to get you sign the dotted line right then
and there. I don't like that and I never intended to sign anything that
night.

He never called me back, which might be because he figured I'd never
buy the thing, but when I looked back on how hard he tried to get me
to sign that nite, makes me think that their whole pitch is geared to
an immediate sale and nothing else.

If you go for this, remember that the 'quoted' price is considered a
place to start negotiating. He made this plain after I hemmed and hawed
a little bit. Tho wouldn't have said anything if I rushed to sign.

Also, when I asked for a few addresses of where I could check out their
work, he told me I had to sign a contract before he could do that. 
This was another point that turned me off.

    
    	RE: .5
    
    	Reasonable?  These must be really extravagant decks.  I was
    quoted a price of $7.35 per sq. ft. to build my deck, but I thought
    it was overpriced so I built it myself @ $3.18 per sq. ft.  These
    prices include materials.
    
    	Of course, I don't have the fancy wood pattern described in
    the base note, but then again, they *are* mass produced.  Supposedly,
    this helps cut costs.
    
    	What kind of warranty does sears provide for these decks?

    OK - maybe it wasn't reasonable - as I said, I haven't priced anyone
    else.
    As far as warranty, it's something like 40 years against rot, etc...
    

What's the best size of wood to use for decking a deck, and why?

Most of the plans I've seen call for either 2x4 or 2x6 decking.  What are
the pros and cons of each size, besides aesthetics (I think 2x6 looks better)?

FYI, I'm not planning on putting in any kind of fancy decking pattern or
anything, and the deck will enjoy rainy Seattle winters (and springs and
summers and autumns ...).

Brian

    
    	I sat through the Sears sales pitch last spring.  Basically
    they have a deck concept that can be mass produced.  However the
    decks are very expensive and are designed on 3'x 3' squares.  If
    you want a deck that is not an even multiple of 3' (9x12, 12x15)
    they get even more expensive.
    	The quality is very good and the design is very sound.  It is
    patented if you want the small details.
    	The bottom line costs for me was $4700 for a 12 x 12 deck! 
    I was offered $500 off if I signed *then*.  The Sears quote was
    2.3 times more expensive than the local contractor.  I told the
    guy for the amount of money Sears charged I could have the local
    guy build one, put the rest of the money on account at 7% and have
    a new deck built every ten years for the rest of my life!
    	My friend had Sears build a 10 x 12 deck and was able to talk
    the price down from $4500 to $3400, so I'm sure there is plenty
    of room to negotiate.  I'm in the midst of planning a 14 x 14 deck
    and have priced out the lumber and supplies at about $1000.
    
    				=Ralph=
    

    Don't restrict yourself to 2x anything.  I did one with pressure-treated
5/4x6 (maybe not that easy to find - I think I got mine at Country 3 Corners,
Weare, NH).  It's certainly easier to handle and with joists at 12" or even 16"
they should be sturdy enough.
    (I'm assuming you're asking about the "decking" or floor-boards.)

    Maybe I can help you this time Brian...
    
    	Traditional decking is 5/4 thick and comes either 4" or 6" 
    wide.  For a little extra money you can deck with 2x4's  or 
    2x6's which are really 6/4 or 1.5 inches thick.  The thicker
    wood is less likely to warp.
    	As for which wood is the best it all depends on how much money
    you have.  My inlaws had their deck done with 5/4 mahogany and it
    looks great and is rot resistant.  Redwood also looks great and
    may be a bit cheaper out in the land of never ending rain.  Cedar
    is another choice.  Me, I'm poor and will deck with Pressure 
    Treated fir or yellow pine.  The PT costs about half of what the 
    natural rot resistant wood costs.
    	The one useful piece of info I learned for This Old House is
    that decking should be put down 'bark side out'  Look at the edge
    of the wood and see which way the rings of the tree run.  Nail the
    decking so that the curved side, where the bark was, is up.  This
    will keep water from being retained on the cupped decking.  
    	
    					=Ralph=
    
                          
    

    Another nice feature of the 5/4 PT decking is that its edges have
    a 1/4" radius which helps keep down edge splintering.  It also
    minimizes the effects of any cupping since their are no sharp corners
    to catch on.  You can also get it in 4" and 6" widths.
    
    Bob

    	Another advantage of 5/4 decking as opposed to 2by is that it
    is usually a better grade. Most PT 2 by is #2 grade and most of
    the time barely that. Wood sold as decking is for the most part
    #1 or on the high side of #2. When I built my deck I used 5/4 by
    4 and hand picked every piece. In a new stack you could get about
    9 out of 10 good boards (not free, bark free, gouge free). Try the
    same with 2 x 4's you'll be lucky to get 2 out of 10.
    
    				...Dave
    

On the east coast, PT is definitely the most economical alternative, if you're 
not worried about the safety of contact with the chemical treatment.  On the 
west coast, however, there is tons of cheap clear redwood, fir, and cedar to 
choose from, which is naturally rot resistant and looks much better.  Don't use 
redwood - it's not strong at all - but 1x4 vertical grain fir (The Primo 
Decking Material) should be as cheap or cheaper than PT out there. 

Paul

Getting back to the original subject.

1. I believe that Marvin calls the set of two doors, one of which is 
fixed and the other pivots on hinges located between the two doors: 
"terrace" doors.  They are most often sold as a 6' unit (two 3'doors, 
one of which opens).  But a huge selection of sizes is available, 
including combinations of 3 or more doors, some fixed, some which open. 


Atrium is like Kleenex.  It is the brand name of one of the
manufacturers that is becoming generic. 

We went for the very expen$ive Marvin aluminum clad 6' terrace door.
Since the door opens to a deck, and there could be snow resting against
it for weeks/months, our carpenter convinced us that the extra bucks
would be more than made up in maintenance savings over the life of the
door. As far as I know, Marvin is the only clad terrace door available. 
The Marvin comes standard with low E glass (as does the Atrium brand).

2. Anderson makes a vinyl clad sliding door that is wood on the inside
and looks almost as nice as the Marvin.  Over the years, a slider will
never seal as well as a comparable quality terrace door, but a good one
should still be quite adequate. 

3. I don't believe the screen on the Marvin terrace door is any more or 
less appealing than the one on a slider.  

4. It is easier to secure a terrace door than a slider.  If a thief is 
willing to break the glass, all bets are off.  But terrace doors tend 
to come with a good deadbolt, which is much more secure than most of 
what you see on a slider. So you end up putting some kind of gadget (or 
piece of wood) in the track of the slider, which might not be too 
attractive.  

    I'm going to claimto know something about this, bacause I just spent
    the last two months researching the topic,  and the last five days
    installing a TERRACE door. (Finished the caulking, flashing and siding
    last night, just in time for all this rain.)
    
    A door that is hinged from the center and opens invards is definately a
    terrace door, and Atrium, Marvin, Morgan, Creastline, Nu-door, and
    Bosco all make/sell 'em.  Basically, I belive that you get what
    you pays for.  I avoided the Atrium because it was two inches wider
    than the existing window, and getting it in would have meant re-framing
    the opening.  I bought Marvin with lo-E glass and Argon fill - just
    like Alex Conn's, I think, except that we didn't get the AL clad,
    becasue none of the other windows in the house are clad.  $880 at
    Moore's home center, including latch and deadbolt.
              liding screen door that looks no worse than any other
    screen door - I put it in last night. 
    
    Marvin will also make doors that have both pannels hinged, swinging in
    or out, from the center or the edge, as you wish.  I found that Russell
    Lumber  in Lowell had the most knowlege about these doors, were eager
    to help, and quick to call tha company if they didn't know the answer.
    I also have a very comprehensive catlogue that the original noter is
    welcome to borrow if she is still reading this note and will send me her
    mailstop. 
    
    Russell Lumber have both Atrium and Marvin doors on display.
    
    Marvin gives you the option of real divided lights or wood grilles.
    
    	Andrew
    

    
    
    	I Just had 3 decks built which totaled 400 sq. ft.
    
    	Materials        = $2000
    
    	Labor ( No DYI ) = $1800
    			 ========
    			   $3800  ==  $9.50/sq ft
    
    	This included stairs, fancy railings, footings, concrete and
    	all nails and joist.
    
    
    	Tony

This is off of the subject but triggered by .25.

I saw this wonderful deadbolt lock on a sliding door once.  It was 
installed on the metal frame around the window of the slider panel.
It mounted on the front (as you look at the door on the inside) in the 
middle (not against the frame).

There was a hole drilled into the top frame.  When you snapped it 
'down', the deadbolt went up into the frame.  When you pulled it 
'out', the deadbolt dropped down.

It was a real product, not a kludge.  It looked a thousand percent 
better than a stick, and seemed more than adequate from the saftey 
standpoint.

RE: .11

We are currently having the upper and lower decks built as part of our 
addition.  Our best guess is that .11's cost is very close to what 
we'll pay per square foot for about 300 sq. ft. of deck. 

Alex

    When I did mine last year, the radius-edged 5/4 x 6 stuff was *more*
    expensive than #1 grade 2 x 6. These prices were from the same
    dealer. The choice was obvious.
    
    John

    We had summit construction build last summer
    
    	16 x 14 ground level deck
    	16 x 6  upstairs deck above
    	3  x 6 doorstep
    	3  x 3 doorstep
    
    The surface was PT 1x6 with rounded corners applied diagonally.
     The cost excluded grading, but included the concrete piers -- $2000
    
    They were a new outfit, and I think that we got a good price.  Thats
    less that $6 / ft ^2.  One guy knew what he was doing, but for 
    the most part the others guys listened to him.
    
    	Andrew
    

    Just received a quote from Jacobs Construction for the deck.  I
    am curious what you folks think of the specifics for the construction.
    I'm no construction expert, so any input about what I might want
    to change in the quote, etc is appreciated:
    
    One 14x8 screen porch.  Walls include PT 4x4's for supports with
    6x8 top plate.  Includes 2x8 PT floor joists at 16" OC with 2x6
    PT covering.  8" flashing against house.  Steel lally columns for
    supports into concrete pads below frostline. Two 6x8 beams centered
    in room.  2x8 rafters at 16" OC with 5/8" plywood on rafters. 1x6
    fascia board, with 1/2" AC plywood for soffit. 5" drip edge around
    1x6, then asphalt shingles on plywood.  Also includes aluminum screens
    screwed into 4x4's.  One storm door.  One 6x8 platform with stairs
    built in, leading to lower deck.
    
    Lower deck is 25x12, which includes 2x8 deck joists at 16" OC with
    2x6 deck covering.  4x4's for support into concrete below frostline.
    Includes 3 sets of stairs.  2x12 stringers with 2x6 covering. 2x4
    handrail on stairs leading from deck to porch.  Includes 17 feet
    of benchseat made with 2x4 PT.  Also includes replacing a section
    of clapboards under existing deck and removing existing deck.
    
    The cost for this is $8980.  The porch was quoted at $3980 and the
    lower deck was $5000.
    
    One thing I wanted him to do was make the lower deck 1ft shorter
    to reduce waste (24x12 instead of 25x12).  I don't know if that
    would affect the quote.
    
    Thanks,
    	Rob
   

RE .< Note 2219.17 by ALIEN::WEISS "Trade freedom for security-lose both" >

>fir ... is naturally rot resistant and looks much better.  

Paul, 

FYI, when I asked about V.g. fir at a decent lumber yard here in Seattle, they
quoted $0.64 /ft for 5/4 x 6.  That's pretty expensive compared to the #1
grade Wolman 2x6 @ $0.58.  Is this price comparable to the east coast price?

(I was told by a builder here that at one time, not too long ago, local
building code actually required that homes had to built of some percentage of
fir, to help support the local lumber industry!) 

When I asked about v.g. fir's durability and rot resistance, they said it would
definitely need some kind of preservative treatment, 'tho they didn't specify
what kind.  What did you use on your deck, and how has it weathered?

Brian

    One other thought.  In most cases I know of, PT lumber is the dregs
    of the lot (read: the lowest grade possible).  It is also usually
    simply "pine" (which in itself can mean many things).  Anyway...,
    most fir that I know of has a much tighter grain than your normal
    pine, making it more resistant to dings.  Fir also tends to be stronger
    than pine for structural members.
    
    My personal bias would be to use (sealed) fir over PT lumber.
    
    - Mark

Re: Note 2219.21

<    One other thought.  In most cases I know of, PT lumber is the dregs
<    of the lot (read: the lowest grade possible).  It is also usually
<    simply "pine" (which in itself can mean many things).  

Most wood you buy today is the dregs.  There is not much good stuff left.
Most PT lumber is Southern Yellow Pine which is a strong, fairly straight
grained pine.  It also absorbs moister under pressure more readily and 
consistently then other woods, thus making it cheaper in the long run to 
manufacture.

<    pine, making it more resistant to dings.  Fir also tends to be stronger
<    than pine for structural members.
 
"Pine" and fir are in the same grouping for structural materials call S-P-F
(spruce-pine-fir).  If my memory is right Southern Yellow Pine is in its 
own group(SYP) and is stronger.
   
<    My personal bias would be to use (sealed) fir over PT lumber.
    
My personal preference is to use straight grain, heart redwood, but who can 
afford it.  If fir and PT had comparable total cost of ownership, I would 
choose the fir.

Brian

      I'm in the process of designing a deck which will be 36'x16' in
    dimensions,  I'm wondering how many sauna tubes I need to pour for
    a span of 36'?   I plan on using 2x10's for the stringers.  What
    I want to do is place the tubes 13 ft out from the house, and have
    the deck cantalevered 3 ft.  Does this sound practical?  the deck
    will be aprox 3ft off the ground.  Do you think 2x10's are big enough?
    Could I use 2x8's?  With a 13ft span and a 3ft overhang am I
    overlooking any potential problems?
                   
    Thanks for any help and advice.
    
    Jeff

    
    	2x10 joists at 13 feet should be fine.  I'd say a minimum of
    five supports which would give you 'nine foot' spans in-between
    columns.  That's stretching it a bit if there will be loads on
    the deck.  Play it safe and go with six or more for better strength
    and safety.   2x8's won't safely carry a 13 foot span.  On that
    size deck, stay with the 2x10's.
    

    My neighbor's house is a split with an overhang of 3 feet and it
    uses 2x10's.  It has to hold up walls and a roof!  You should be
    OK with your deck.  As for the sono tubes, 6 (1 every 7'2" should
    be OK.  You might want to call the building inspector to make sure.
    Since this project is so big, you're not going to be able to keep
    it secret.  Our building inspector is very helpful about construction
    requirements.
    
    Bob

    	Don't forget to carry the design through. 
    
    What size posts are you going to use?
    
    What size beam?
    
    How are you going to attach to the house?
    
    How are you going to attach to the concrete pads (wet or dry anchors)?
    
    	Just some thoughts to consider.
    
    				...Dave
    
    BTW  yes to 2x10, 6 footings should do.
    
    
     

      Re. last few
     
      Thanks for the advice.  Here are some more details of what I plan
    on doing.  
    
    All wood will be preasure treated.  The posts will be 6x6's, The
    carrying beam will be three 2x10s sandwiched together.   Joists
    will be 16" on center (2x10's).  I plan on nailing the ledger board
    to the sill/house.  Do I need to flash it?  I hadn't planned on
    getting a permit, what do ya think?  What are the consequences of
    having the posts rest on the concrete vs. attaching them via bolts?
    Remember this deck will be only three ft off the ground.  Are the
    galvinized hangers and other hardware worth buying, or should I
    just nail everything?
    
    Thanks
     Jeff
                                         

    
    
      Use the hangers!!! A penny saved is nothing in Mass anyways.

if you're near spags, buy your hangers there.  they're around $.59 which is
around 1/2 of what you're pay elsewhere.  if you need a lot, you'll save a lot.

-mark

    I used Teco hardware for my deck.  The hangers are good for attaching
    the joists to the plate attached to the house since you can't nail
    them from behind.  I got them at Spags and when I did, I thought
    they were mis-marked because the price was so low.  

    re: getting a permit
    
    A pal of mine built an 8x8 deck with the best intentions but still
    out of code.  He was ordered to tear it down when the town came
    around and noticed that it wasn't on the plan.
    
    And the inspector (at least in Shrewsbury) can help a lot with
    conformance and tips ... they've usually seen it all in your local
    area.

    Yes, use lag bolts and make sure you hit the studs.  The plywood
    sheathing alone is not secure enough.  
    
    Instead of flashing, I used wood spacers to shim out my ledger board
    so that air could circulate between the house and ledger.  This
    approach also allows leaves and other junk to fall through.  The
    old deck that I had to rip out had a ledger nailed directly to the
    house that trapped water and rotted out.  Then the carpenter ants
    discovered it...
    
    Bob

    Does anybody know that the 5/4" x 4 D-decking is enough for the
    Deck?  The joist spacing is 16" O.C. 2"x8"s.
    
    Thanks
    Pak
    

    
    The 5/4" (which is a full 1"thick) stock was designed for decking.
    I used 5/4" X 6" P.T. for my deck (16" O.C. joists) and it was fine.
    I would guess that 5/4" X 4" would also be ok, although I've never
    used it.
    
    
    Bob
    

    The directions on the sonotubes that my hubby purchased say to 
    coat the inside with oil before pouring in the concrete, and then
    REMOVE the tubes once the concrete is set.  This seems like it
    would be EXTREMELY difficult.  Is it really necessary?
    
    We are tearing down a builder-installed deck that is a piece of
    junk and re-building... and expanding it.  The supports that they
    put in still have the sonetubes in the ground.  What's the story?
    Are you supposed to remove them or not?  It would be a royal P.I.T.A.
    and we'd rather not have to.
    
    Also, after digging three more 4' deep holes into our very rocky soil,
    it occurs to us that it will be difficult to ensure that the top
    of the cement is level.  Is there a technique to doing this, or
    do you not level the surface of the cement but level the post using
    one of the types of spacers described in this note instead?  In
    other words, how do you make sure the posts are plumb?
    
    Thanks for any advice!
    
    Amy
                                                          

    
    The 5/4" X 4" is fine for decks with 16" O.C. joists. I used 5/4"
    X 6" with 24" O.C. joists and that worked fine.
    
    There are cheap grades of that type of decking you have to watch
    out for, price should not be you're only concern.
     

    It is not neccessary to remove them other than for looks.
    

    This may have been mentioned before, but ...
    
    When laying your decking, make sure that when viewed end-on the
    rings form an upside-down "U", not a right-side-up "U".  Decking
    will cup and you don't want it to cup such that it will form a
    water-holding trough.
    
    Also, you may wonder whether or not to leave a space between the
    planks.  We opted not to because several people told us that the
    planks will shrink anyway and if you leave a space it'll only get
    larger.  They were 100% right and now we have fairly uniform 1/8-1/4"
    spaces between the planks that butted tightly together.
    
    Pete

        You should be able to get the sonotubes fairly close to plumb
    just by using a plumb level, on all sides, and using dirt to shim
    the tube and keep it plumb.  Use the level on the inside or outside
    of the tube, and once you fill in about half of the hole, you'll 
    find that the tube will hold it's own.
	If the cement is wet enough when you pour it into the tubes,
    it will tend to seek its own level, with just a little help from
    a trowel.

    Re: .28
    
    Do you mean plumb (vertical alignment) or level (each post is
    horizontally the same height)?
    
    With sonotubes (or wooden forms, for that matter) mark the level
    point on the outside of the tube and then drive a nail through to
    use as a marker for top of concrete.
    
    Or you can place the sonotubes such that the tops are all level
    with where you want the top of the concrete to be and pour until
    flush.
    
    At any rate sonotubes are not very substantial and wet concrete
    is heavy so brace them as well as you can.
    
    To level the post tops with each other if they are farther apart
    then the longest conventional level you can get your hands on, then
    use a water level (hose filled with water), or rent/borrow a transit.
    If you can do the latter, the accuracy obtainable is phenomenal.
    
    

    RE: .31
    
    Another potential solution for posts further apart than longest 
    available level is, to find a nice straight '2 by' and place across
    the tops of the tube and level that.
    
    There's also the ol' water level trick if the other is not doable.
    
    Charlie 

     thanks for all the help.  Ran into our first problem.  The building
    inspector says that we can't put a 3' high deck over the soil pipe
    leading from the house to the septic system.  Says that it has to
    be high enough so that it can be dug up if necessary.  Since making
    it any higher would not be practical we are in a bind.  The other
    objection he had was that we must stay at least ten feet away from
    the septic tank.   I can't imagine how a deck would bother the tank,
    we wanted to go to within 4'.   Any suggestions?  We live in Northboro,
    MA.
    Thanks

    You may be able to get around the soil pipe problem by making
    a removable section in the deck above the soil pipe.  A neighbor
    of mine has a hinged section in his back porch because it's
    directly above the hatchway entrace to the cellar.  In your case,
    since it's pretty much a theoretical problem anyway (how often
    are you going to have to dig up that pipe? probably never), you
    don't have to make the "removable" section particularly convenient
    to remove.  Basically, all you have to do is make it removable
    enough to satisfy the building inspector, assuming he agrees to
    that approach at all.
    
    Not within 10' of the septic tank...I don't see any way around
    that one.
    

    	I've found the code info on how far I can span with
    2x8's.  However I can't find any info on the amount of 
    overhand, or cantilever allowed when resting the 2x8
    on a girder.  I've been told that the max allowed overhand
    is 1/3 the span.  Can anyone confirm this?
    	I'm using 2x8's on 12" centers. A rough picture is:
    
    ----------------------------------------------
    						 |  2x8 12"OC
       						 |
    ----------------------------------------------
   				   -----
    <--------12' Span	     ---- >| | |<--???-->
    				   | | |   cantilever
    				   -----                                    
                            Double 2x10 Girder

             
    				Thanks,
    				=Ralph=
    

    
    	1/3 *your* span would be 4 feet and I con't remember ever seeing
    anything much longer than that cantilevered with 2x8's.  For my
    peace of mind, even that would be too much.  My deck is 12 feet
    long with the carrying beam at 10 feet giving a 2 foot cantilever.
    It is plenty solid enough.  One thing you might want to consider
    is loading on the cantilever end.  If you will just be standing
    or sitting there, 4 feet might be ok, but if your planning on put-
    ting a picnic table, barbeque, and who knows what else, on the 
    cantilevered side, you may want to shorten the cantilevered span.
    	Just out of curiosity, why are you considering such a long
    cantilevered span?  Have you checked with the local inspector on
    the maximum span allowed?
    

    re .18
    	I'm only planning a cantilevered span of 2-2.5 feet.  The
    cantilevered length was more a function of where I could dig
    4' footings without running into rocks.  The max span I could
    get from 2x8's was around 13 feet, so I thought that a 12' span
    with a 2' cantilever was a good compromise.  Ideally I'd like to
    use 2x10's, but that would raise the height of the deck higher 
    than the door.  Instead, I plan on putting the 2x8's on 12"
    rather than 16" centers.
    	I'm bringing the plans to the building inspector tomorrow
    for sign off to pull the permit.  I just wanted to make sure
    that there was no obvious problem.
    					=Ralph=	

Note 221.14   
<    Yes, use lag bolts and make sure you hit the studs.  The plywood
<    sheathing alone is not secure enough.  

	The deck header joist should be bolted into the band joist not the 
	studs nor plywood.  Unlike the studs which only translate the force 
	down, the band joist also spreads the force across the sill plate.  

Note 221.15
<     thanks for all the help.  Ran into our first problem.  The building
<    inspector says that we can't put a 3' high deck over the soil pipe
<    leading from the house to the septic system.  Says that it has to
<    be high enough so that it can be dug up if necessary.  
Note 221.16 
<    You may be able to get around the soil pipe problem by making
<    a removable section in the deck above the soil pipe.  A neighbor
...
<    enough to satisfy the building inspector, assuming he agrees to
<    that approach at all.

	The hatch way is not a good alternative, since the digging would be 
	done using a backhoe.  If you are that close to your septic system, 
	make sure you leave honeydipper access that does not require driving 
	over the leach field.  

	You may be able to design a "seasonal deck" that is removable and made 
	from those 2' x 2' deck squares.  It would have to be supported 
	entirely independent of the house and very low to the ground.  I do not 
	know of any provisions in the code for such things, but if it is 
	designed to be moved by 2 people, you may be able to convince the 
	building inspector that it is not a permanent structure and does not 
	require approval.

Note 221.17
<    However I can't find any info on the amount of 
<    overhand, or cantilever allowed when resting the 2x8
<    on a girder.  I've been told that the max allowed overhand
<    is 1/3 the span.  

	1/3 up to 4' for unsupported cantilever.  If you cantilever more than 
	1 1/2' recommend you use upside down joist hangers(notched into the 
	joists) on the header at the house end and endnailing not toenailing, 
	to prevent twist.  You still should get the final word from your 
	building inspector.  If you start at 4' and that's too long, the 
	building inspector will shorten the design to meet codes.  If you start
 	shorter, you will never known how big a deck you could have built.  

Brian

    O.K. solved the problems with the building inspector.  I can go
    to within 5' of the septic tank and he will let me build over the
    pipe as long as we can get at it, whatever that means.
      Next question.
    How much cement does it take to fill a 10" sona tube to a depth
    of 4'?  I'll be using ready mix.  Any idea how many bags I'll need
    for each tube?  
    
    Thanks for all the help
    Jeff

    	Now that I've found a place to buy the premixed concrete I can
    move up my construction schedule for my deck.  The one question
    I have is how to I accurately cut to hight the 4x4 posts that
    will hold up the girder?  My yard has a slope to it, so the 
    4 posts will range in height from 1-3 feet tall.  The only
    ways that I can think of to set their heights level with the
    header on the house and the other posts are:
    
    1) String level- not very accurate
    2) Surveyors Transit - I don't own one, nor do I know how to use
     one.  I imagine I'd be able to rent one, but is this over kill?
    
    	Also what slope should I give the deck to get the water to run
    away from the house?  I've heard 1/4" per foot, is this too much?
    The deck is 14' long, would 3.5" out of plumb make me fall forward
    when I stand on the deck?
    
    				=Ralph=

>        	Also what slope should I give the deck to get the water to run
>    away from the house?  I've heard 1/4" per foot, is this too much?
>    The deck is 14' long, would 3.5" out of plumb make me fall forward
>    when I stand on the deck?

    What are you using for decking?  If you're using any type of boards,
    they're going to have space between them for water to run thru,
    so you won't need any slope. (Except possibly on the first board
    closest to the house).
    
    To level the posts, hold up a board from the first post to the header
    on the house.  Put a level on top of it and mark the post, and cut
    it.  Then hold up the girder from that post to the next one and
    do the same.  Then verify it by holding up a board from that post
    back to the header.  That's how I did it.
    

    You want some slope, but 1/4" per foot is way overdoing it.
    I'd drop it 1" in 14', maybe a little more.  If you can get
    away with 2" without it looking like it's going downhill,
    go for that.  As mentioned, you'll have the boards spaced apart
    anyway for drainage.  
    
    I'd use a good tight string to level up the posts.  You're building
    a deck, not a watch.  

    
    	I need one more question answered before I begin work this weekend.
    I'm using a 14' double 2x8 ledger lag bolted onto my house.  I know
    to put spacers between the 2x8's to let air circulate and prevent
    rot.  What I don't know is lag bolt size, diameter, and spacing.
    My guess is that I should use lag bolts that are 6" long to get
    through the 3" of double 2x8, 1/2 inch of spacers and still have
    2.5" of bite into the sill.  Should I use 3/8 or 1/2" lag bolts?
    Is 24" spacing between bolts ok?
    	Thanks for the water level suggestion.  It took all of 5 minutes
    to make with an old joint compound bucket and $3 worth of 1/4 inch
    tubing.
    	People who are thinking of decks should take a look at the
    April/May _Fine Homebuilding_ article titled Building A Deck to
    Last.  There is also an interesting letter to the editor in the
    June/July edition describing attaching a ledger to the house.
    
    				=Ralph=

    My guess is that 3/8" bolts would be adequate.  As for length - better
    too long than too short.  I assume you're removing the siding, whatever
    it is, from the house and the 2x8s will be spaced out directly
    from the sheathing.  You want to be sure you have a good length of bolt
    going into the house sill, so if you have 3" of 2x8 + 1/2" of spacer
    + 1/2" of sheathing, you're down to 2" of bolt actually going into
    the sill.  I might go with something slightly longer, although if
    you're planning to do this every 24" the 6" bolts should be enough.
    I would say every 24" is plenty.

    	Why two ledgers?  Unless there is an obstruction that prevents
    the joists from properly meeting the ledger, only one is needed
    on the house side.
                                                        
    	Contrary to some things that might have been said about nailing
    ledgers to houses, don't underestimate the strength of good galvin-
    ized nails for this purpose.  I nailed my ledger with three 16D
    hot dipped galv nails every sixteen inches, and it's as solid as
    any lagged ledger.  Lags can work loose also, and you can strip
    the wood when installing them if your not careful about pilot hole
    size or try to tighten them too much.  Call me psychotic, but I
    have this illogical fear of someone armed only with a 9/16 wrench
    and a vengence, being able to cause a lot of damage.

    Ralph, you might try lagging one of the 2x8's to the house with the 6"lag.
    Than lag the second to the first. That way you will know that they
    will have enough bite.
    
    Jim

                                                                      

<    My guess is that I should use lag bolts that are 6" long to get
<    through the 3" of double 2x8, 1/2 inch of spacers and still have
<    2.5" of bite into the sill.  Should I use 3/8 or 1/2" lag bolts?
 
I personally would not drive any nail or bolt into the sill plate from 
the outside.  This is just inviting rot.  I prefer to bolt through 
the band joist.  This way you have a 2 x 8 and metal on metal threads 
preventing the bolt from pulling out.  

It would be better to bolt through just just one 2 x 8, because the 
longer a bolt is the easier it is to break.

<   Is 24" spacing between bolts ok?

Make sure you plan in advance where your joists will be and also check 
where the anchor bolts on the sill are.  A good easy to find reference 
on bolts, nails, fastners, etc. is Bob Villas TOH book on building materials
(surprisingly).

BTW  After a few months of posting, you probably realize that I tend toward
the conservative side when it comes to structural design.  

    re: .30
    
    Okay, you're psychotic! :-)
    
    Thinking about it, I'd tend to agree with you - why two 2x8s?  One
    is plenty.

    I was planning on using 2 ledgers because of a suggestion
    in the June/July Fine Homebuilding letters to the editor
    section.  It is a little tough to explain, and I can't do
    the graphics.  You people have pretty much talked me out 
    of it, I think I'll just use one
    					=Ralph=

I got most of the deck built this weekend, using a design based on a few
Ortho deck books and advice gained from this note.

I ended up renting a ramset-like gun and nailing a sill to the old greenhouse
foundation.  It worked quite well, although the dog (and the neighbors?)
got a little nervous at the sound.  

I bought "Sunwood" 2x6 PT lumber for the decking--it's hemlock in this area, I
think--for $.048/ft, and the lumberyard threw in a Skil saw to boot.  Most
of the wood was pretty clear.  I made sure to put it in bark side up.  Funny
thing was that the bark side was often the "bad" side on most pieces ...

I still have to put in one last bench and finish nailing down some decking,
but if the rain permits, I should be barbecuing on this puppy by this weekend.

Thanks to all who helped coach me through this,

Brian

    
    Hmmmm.  $.048/ft?? That's quite a deal! ;)
    
    Charlie

	Hoping someone has had this problem, and solved it.  (I checked
#1111 under "Cleaning" and "Decks" without finding anything appropriate.)

	I recently stained my new PT deck (built last summer) with a light
gray color (Cabot's 'Driftwood' decking stain).  Unfortunately, there are
some oak trees nearby; one very tall one in fact overhangs the deck.  The
problem occurred when the oaks started dropping what I believe are their
'blossoms,' though I hate to call them that because, frankly, they are the
ugliest looking things produced by the plant kingdom.  Anyway, a lot of them
fell on my grass, asphalt, and--most importantly--my new deck floor.  When
it rained, these arboreal excreta left small brown stains all over the deck.

	Obviously, I'm asking if anyone knows how to get rid of the stains.
(Please don't tell me to cut down the tree; it ain't mine to remove.)  I
tried a stiff brush and a solution of Spic 'n Span, which I understand is
basically TSP.  The stains faded a bit but did not go away.  Now, I figure that
being oak-derived they are probably acid, so I tried some vinegar on a very
small area, and that seemed to work.  Though I'm somewhat afraid of the effects
of the vinegar, I'm thinking of diluting it with water, and throwing some
Spic 'n Span into the mix, along with a dollop of Clorox for good measure.

	What do you think?    PS - Just so there's no confusion, these
so-called 'blossoms' consist of little nubs branching off a central threadlike
filament which is probably 2-4 inches in length.  The nubs come off very easily
when you run the thing through your fingers.  And, when I rake these
miserable things, they easily form a sort of "hairball" (and I use the term
with all the venom of Det. Belker on Hill St. Blues).  This tendency makes them
easy to pick up and discard -- about the only good thing about them!  Here
is roughly what one of them looks like:

                 . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
		/ ./ /./ /./ / . /./ . / /./.
	----------------------------.--:;---  <------ central filament
		\ \.\ \ \ \ \ \ : \:\ \ \.\
		 . . . : ..::: . . . . . . . <------- ugly little nubs
                           
	Thanks in advance for your advice.

							Steve G	

    
>>>>>>    Hmmmm.  $.048/ft?? That's quite a deal! ;)
    

They were asking a nickle per foot, but I talked 'em down.  :-}

    Can't help you with your problem, but if throw random cleaners together
    "a dollop of Clorox for good measure" you may not be around long
    enough to care what happens to your deck.
    
    Clorox mixed with any cleaner containing ammonia will produce DEADLY
    fumes.  Two people were killed in Boston a while back when they
    decided to clean their extra-dirty windows in an unvented room with
    such a combination.
    
    I'm sure the chemists out there can come up with other combinations
    of cleaners and solvents that are just as bad.

    Thanks for the warning, but lest anyone reading this entry get alarmed,
    the TSP+Clorox mix is OK!  I used it as a mildewcide prior to staining
    the deck--according to the instructions of the Cabot Paint/Stain
    Co., as printed on the label.
    
    Your specific mention of ammonia+bleach is well-heeded, however.
    I wonder if companies that sell either or both are putting appropriate
    warnings on the bottles; obviously both are common household chemicals,
    and quite liable to be used together...as in your grim tale.
    

    I ONCE accidentaly mixed bleach with toilet bowl cleaner and the
    results were not good at all. I lost 4 days work due to chemical
    puemonia(sp?) and felt like s#!T for at least 2 months afterwards.
    Any more the only chemicals I mix are those designed to be mixed
    together. I believe the bleach used alone would do a fine job removing
    the stains or buy one of the bleaching mixes made for fences and
    decks availible from paint stores.
    
    -j
    

    	You people convinced me that I needed only 1 2x8 as the ledger
    on the house.  Now I've got to bang in the joist hangers and joists
    and have another questions:  How many nails do I use per joist hanger?
    The part that attaches to the ledger has 8 holes that will accept
    10 penny nails.  There are 6 holes to bang into the joist itself
    and I've bought TECO short 8 penny nails.  The short nails have
    the same diameter as an 8 penny put are only 1.5" long and won't
    protrude through the 2x8.  The hangers are the full 2x8 size.
    	For added strength I decided on putting the joists on 12" rather
    than 16" centers.  Now I'm a bit worried that I won't have much
    room to get a good hammer swing.  Does anyone have a word of advice?
    
    					=Ralph=
    
    	(BTW buying the concrete premixed was a breeze.  $58 got me
    half a yard in a trailer to bring home.  It took all of 1 hour to
    shuttle it into the back yard with my wheelbarrow and fill 4 sona
    tubes)

    
    	I think I used six 6D galv nails to attach my joist hangers
    to the ledger, and four 6D galv nails (two on each side) into
    the joist.  Some of them came through the 2x8 depending on the 
    angle I drove them in, but I just bent them over.

Have you tried deck brightner.  This stuff is supposed to be the greatest
thing since PT lumber.  I believe most of the PT and stain manufactures 
have a product.  Woolman has been advertising heavily.  I have seen the stuff
in many DIY places in the stain section.  I personally have not tried it and it 
is fairly new, so could you provide use a review if you use it.

Have you tried non-chlorine powder bleach(Clorox II) and TSP.  A non-chlorine 
bleach would work better on a topical stain.  I suspect but do not know for 
sure that these are the basic ingredients of the deck brightners.

Brian

    Thanks for all the advice on both safety and effectiveness.  I did
    in fact try Clorox II, with little effect.  Then, just to repeat
    my earlier experiment, I used a splash of vinegar in about 2 quarts
    of water.  Even this mild solution worked pretty well, so I believe
    I am going to wait until said tree has totally relieved itself of
    its noxious burden, and go with a stronger solution of white vinegar
    (I used the cider variety), and water.
    
    I also tried "Sof' Scrub," a mildly abrasive household cleanser
    made, interestingly enough, by Clorox also.  Its ingredients are
    listed as "calcium carbonate and detergents."  This product, while
    not nearly as effective as vinegar, did a better job than any of
    the other cleaning agents I tried.  I plan on using it as well,
    to get rid of any especially stubborn stains missed by the vinegar.
    
    I even suspect that toothpaste, whose nearly universal cleaning
    powers are cited elsewhere in this notesfile, will be effective
    in spot cleaning!  In fact, there may be any number of agents that
    will solve the problem, but as you can see I am coming down on the
    side of 'safety first.'  I figure that any faint vestiges of the stains
    that remain will be taken care of by nature's bleach/detergent combo:
    i.e., sun and rain.
    
    So, thanks again, and if anyone has a better "solution" (so to speak)
    I am still open to suggestions.  If not, I will gladly pay the penalty
    of 'elbow grease' and having a deck that will smell like a salad
    bar for a day or so!
    
    						Steve
    
    

    Eureka....I don't want to belabor the issue, but, FYI, I did one
    more experiment and found that a mild solution of liquid Clorox
    and water works best.  Stains completely disappear!  Just scrub
    lightly with stiff brush, let sit for seconds, and flush with water.
    
    Best part: solution can be VERY mild.  I used about enough bleach
    to cover bottom of bucket, and added about 2 quarts of water.  So,
    no worries about bleaching out my *intentional* stain job!
    
    					Steve
    

    	What type of nails do I use for nailing down 5/4 decking?  I
    realize that they should be galvanized, but should they be finish
    nails or common?  Is 8 penny a good size?
    				=Ralph=

    When my deck was built they used a nail gun with twisted (looks almost
    threaded) nails about 3 to 4 inches long (not finish nails - you should
    have a head to hold down the decking).  These things were also coated
    with glue that (supposedly) melted when shot, assuring no
    working-loose. 
    
    Depending on the size of your deck, I'd recommend the gun.  Mine has
    LOTS of nails in it (a typical 8' length has about 14 nailheads
    showing!) and none of them have worked their way up. I can't imagine
    how long it would have taken without the gun, plus you don't wind up
    with rosebuds when using the gun. 

    Thanks for the info on nails.  I called Taylor Rent-all and they
    rent the nail gun and compressor for $55/day and have special glue
    coated twisted nails will cost $10-12 for 1000 nails.
    
    	My next question deals with decking lumber.  The majority of
    decks are done in 5/4 4" or 6" PT lumber.  I'm a little concerned
    about PT and the health effects.  The prices I've run into are:
    
    	Wood   			$/ln ft			total costs
    5/4 x 6" PT			0.60			$235
    3/4 x 4" Fir		0.65			$400
    3/4 x 4" redwood		0.75			$450
                                                                   
    	Does anyone know of better prices on non PT decking within 495?
    The fir and redwood are 1" nominal, 3/4 actual.  Will this be strong
    enough with joists on 12" centers?  How is fir as decking, and how
    does it hold up over time?

The fir will be plenty strong enough, the redwood won't be.  Redwood is a very 
weak wood - weaker than white pine, I think, but in any case at best just 
barely strong enough for decking.  It's also very soft, and will dent easily.  
Fir is much stronger, and is actually about the equal of redwood in terms of
rot-resistance.  Ask and make sure that the fir is vertical grain.  VG fir is
the premier decking wood, and installed correctly will hold up very well.  The
VG does two things:  It helps the wood dry out better, since the grain is
running vertically instead of horizontally, and it is much less likely to
generate splinters.  The thinly feathered grain of flat-sawn wood separates and
splinters very easily (BTW, it does this in PT wood too, after a few years). 

Also, you can use 6d nails with the 3/4 nominal decking.  I've built several 
decks using 1x4 VG fir decking nailed down with 6d finish nails, and never had 
a problem.

Paul

I am in the process of digging post holes for a deck.   I have (fortunatly) 
one of those auger-type post hole diggers, as opposed to the pinch-type.
(Sorry for the terminology...best way I could describe them!)

Question:

     Since my holes are nice and cylindrical already, is there any need
for tubes to hold the concrete?   Is there any function besides shape
that the tube provides?

     Also, is it necessary to attach the PT 4x4's to the concrete?  I am
pouring the footings at 4' and filling to about 2.5', then set the post
on the hardened concrete and fill the hole back up with dirt.  Is this
reasonable?  If you WERE to attach the wood to the concrete, how would
YOU do it in this senario?

Thanks for any advice... Bob

P.S.  Northern climate, ie snow!

The type of nails to use are annular or twist nails.  If you do hammer the 
nails by hand, get a 20 oz professional grade hammer, not your K-Mart special.
Remember what happened on TOH at the California house.

re: .42
     
I would not recommend burying the posts only 1.5 ft deep without securing it
to the footing.  A frost heave could lift the post right off the footing.  
There are bolts that are designed to be imbedded in concrete which have a bend 
at the bottom instead of a head.  The only problem is trying to square the bolt
when it is 1.5 ft below the surface in concrete that probably is not level.

Brian

Need some advice on making my built-in deck benches more secure and
comfortable: 

As they are now, the seat cleat slops just a bit on the upright, so that
the seats get out of level when someone sits on them.  Also, the 2x2 slats
are a bit rough &splintery.

I used a design from the April/May issue of "Fine Homebuilding" which had
a 2x6 seat cleat bolted onto a 2x6 upright using 3 3/8" bolts.  PT Sunwood
(hemlock?) throughout:

			 [] [] [] [] [] 2x2 seat slats	
		|-------|-------------
		| o   o |bolts	     /	 
		|   o	|	    / seat cleat 2x6
		|-------|----------
		|	|
		|	|upright 2x6

The bolts are hex-head type with a washer on the nut side only.  As a result,
the heads are pulled into the wood of the seat cleat from tightening.  

-Would putting a washer on the head side of the bolt make for a tighter
fit?

-Is my bolt-hole configuration adequate?

-Can you sand PT without affecting its rot/insect protection?  I'd like
to lightly smooth the 2x2s before I take a splinter in the gluteus maximus.

Brian

    When I built my deck, I knew that the concrete would not be level
    and I knew that once I set the posts they would not be level. I
    did the best that I could to get things level and inserted a bent
    piece of 5/8" threaded rod into the concrete about 15 min. after
    I poured it. I left 6" of rod upright out of the concrete, I drilled
    the center of the 4x4 ends 6" deep with a 5/8" dill. Then I picked
    up the 4x4x8' on end and began to screw it into place. Once I had
    the posts in place, I mixed a batch of post-set and filled in the
    tubes to about 4" below the surface, filled that with earth and
    finished the deck. (10'x16')
    
    BTW. I built this in Maine. I went 4' deep with the tube and the
    deck never flinched.
    
    Ken

    RE: .40 - Decking - Did you call Wickes in Acton?  I got all of
    my materials there when I did a porch last year. Used 5/4 X 4 and
    it went very well - They had the best price around.
    
    HOWEVER, I had to hand select each piece as my son and I loaded
    it onto our roof carrier. General run was maybe 75% good enuf for
    *my* standards. They will deliver, but then you don't get to choose
    your own pieces.
    
    Good luck
    
    Bill

    I am building a 10' wide deck.  To check out construction methods,
    I have been looking at other decks in my area.  I have seen several
    decks 10 to 20 years old, 10' wide made with 2x6 joists.  Some of
    these decks are 20' above ground.  They are very strong, no give
    to the joists as you walk over them, even with tables and a grill.
    Reading through the notes here, most people are using 2x10s for
    decks of similar sizes, I am planning on using 2x6s.  Am I missing
    something?  The floor joists of my house are 2x10s and they have
    load bearing walls on them.
    
    Mark
    

re: .46

	I assume you mean 10 ft deep(i.e. the length of the rafters from the 
	house outward).  For house construction(40 lb live load) with #2SPF 
	2x6 16 in.o.c. the maximum span is 8 ft 4 in(the only load table I have
	at my desk).  2x8 should be adequate for a 10 ft deck.

	BTW support of bearing walls have little effect on live load on joists,
 	because the load is translated directly to the bearing wall below, not 
	through the joists.    

    RE: 10' span for deck.
    
    One alternative would be to place a support beam out at the 8' mark
    and cantilever the remaining two feet. This way you could stay with
    the 2X6's.
    
    Charlie

    I have heard of footings being made by pouring dry Sakrete into
    a sonatube that is in the ground and then soaking with water.
    How well would it cure ?  It sure would beat mixing it
    
    Nile

    RE .42
> Since my holes are nice and cylindrical already, is there any need
>for tubes to hold the concrete?   Is there any function besides shape
>that the tube provides?
 
The other function the tubes perform is in sandy or crumbly soil, it
keeps the soil from falling back into the hole when you pour concrete
in. If you soil is firm and unlikely to fall back in, you don't need
the tubes.
    
>Also, is it necessary to attach the PT 4x4's to the concrete? 

You bet. As reply .43 mentioned, frost can heave it up (or sideways)
if it is not locked in place.
                                                           
>If you WERE to attach the wood to the concrete, how would YOU do it in
this senario?                                              
                                                           
The only thing unusual about your scenario is the fact that you specified
that the concrete was 1.5' below the surface. Why are you doing this -- to
avoid seeing the concrete, or save $ on concrete, or to stiffen the deck
supports? 
          
I'd stop the concrete about 4-8" below the surface and use 5/8" threaded rod
(or a long bolt with a big head) and a metal connector specifically
designed for attaching 4x4" to concrete. You can get them at any place that
carries the lumber for a deck. (Grossman, Somerville, etc) I think they are
made by Teco and they were probably $2-4 each. 
                                                             
I'd put a bent piece of 5/8" threaded rod (or bolt) into the semi-firm
concrete and then set the connector on top of the concrete. Using a small
hand level, adjust the connector so it is level. After the concrete cures,
put the washer and nut on the threaded rod and locked the connector down.
Then you can attach the post with appropriate nails and fill the hole with
dirt to hid the concrete and connector. 
                                                           
If your thought was to stiffen the supports, you may not like my idea. I
built a 12x40' porch/deck combo with the connectors and bolts described
above, but I added braces to stiffen the support structure.

    
    	RE: .49
        
    	Well, if you put two cups of bisquick, two eggs, and one cup
    	of milk in a bowl *without* mixing it, how would your pancakes
    	come out?
    

>The other function the tubes perform is in sandy or crumbly soil, it
>keeps the soil from falling back into the hole when you pour concrete
>in. If you soil is firm and unlikely to fall back in, you don't need
>the tubes.

Well,  I live in Clay NY, and its quite correctly named!  8-)
So I guess I can do without the tubes.

>>Also, is it necessary to attach the PT 4x4's to the concrete? 

>You bet. As reply .43 mentioned, frost can heave it up (or sideways)
>if it is not locked in place.

Ok, I'll agree that with the wood posts only 2.5 feet down, there is a 
possibility of lateral movement off the footing.   However,  I don't
want to pour (read mix by hand) 8 yards of concrete in my yard either! 8-)

My latest thinging, is to stick with the original senario, but add a 5/8"
rod with a hooked end in the concrete, and drill a hole in the 4x4.  This
will prevent the lateral movement of the wood independant of the footing.
Also, I can put one of those nifty little bolts inside the 4x4 that
lookes something like the lousy graphics that follow:

                 |       |
                 |__|-|__|
                 |  |-|  | <-- Cylindrical insert through hole,
                 |--|-|--|     with a threaded hole in insert to 
                 |  | |  |     accept 5/8" rod.
                 |  | |  |
                 |  | |  | <-- 4x4
                 +--| |--+
           |-----+--| |--+-----|
           |        | |____    |  <-- concrete footing
           |        |______|   |
                    
                       ^
               rod ____|


And hopefully, that will allow me to prevent upheaving of the 4x4 
independantly of the concrete.   Obviously, if the footing moves, the
deck will too, but I'm down almost 4 feet, so it should be ok.

I have a problem with the idea of the little TECO gizzies that hold the 
4x4 to the concrete.  If I don't fill the hole to the top with concrete 
(much mixing, and less stability for the 4x4) I can't get into the 8 inch
cylindrical shaft with a 4x4 *AND* a hammer!  8-)

Anybody see me heading for disaster wih this new and noter-improved method?

And thanks for the great replies so far!

Bob

    
    	Bob,
    
    	Is the 8 yards of concrete an exagerration or is this a super
    	big deck?  You mentioned 8 inch diameter holes @ 4 feet.  That
    	comes out to ~2 cu. ft. of cement per hole.  You would need
    	13 holes to use just *one* yard of concrete.  I had seven holes
    	to fill for my deck and I did it with sakrete.  It wasn't that
    	bad.  I used 1.5 bags per hole, but mine were only 6 inch in
    	diameter, so you would probably use 2 or 2.5 bags at the most.
    	I think the advantage of getting to ground level and being able
    	to secure the posts to the footing in a more classical fashion
    	would outweigh the burden of mixing the sakrete.

Yes... 8 yards is an exaggeration... you must have missed my little smiley
face...  I'm building a deck, not a runway!  8-)

I have two reasons for not filling the holes... The first one is laziness!
I don't want to mix more concrete than I have to!

The second, mentioned in an earlier reply, is rigidity of the 4x4.  I want
it sunk into the ground, and know I can wack it with the lawnmower and not
knock it down!  8^)

Also, this is not a permanent residence by any means...  I plan to be long 
gone in two years at most... I just want the deck to last reasonably well
for a few years, and let the next guy do it better if it needs it.  I'm
not in the habit of doing shoddy work, but at the same time, I don't want 
overkill unless I'm going to own it for a while!

Thanks for the opinion...

Bob

    reply to 51
    
    Is not the Sakrete already a completely dry mixture in the bag ?
    
    In the confined sonatube will it only absorb the minimum water
    required for a good set ?
    
    Being a conservative type I will probably rent a mixer, but
    being a lazy type I am intrigued with this method. 
    
    Nilr

>    In the confined sonatube will it only absorb the minimum water
>    required for a good set ?

No.  While I'm for anything that's easy, this won't do the job.  It's 
not enough to get concrete wet... you have to get it mixed as well.  
Sorry.

General note: it's sonOtube!!!!  I don't know why, but the constant 
freeform spelling is starting to make me crazy...

					>>>==>PStJTT

    Why not dig your 4 ft hole, pour a footing and then put your support
    in the hole and fill it with concrete?
    
    T.

    
    RE: .55
    
    	My experience with sakrete has been that you really have to
    work at getting it "wet".  When you add water, it tends to roll
    off the mix.  Also, once it does get wet, it tends to absorb a
    *lot* of water.  This makes me question the "fill it in the hole"
    method by virtue of, how much water do you add to get the proper
    consistency, how much of the water actually seeps down into the
    lower parts of the hole, and if your not using a sonotube how
    much of the water is absorbed into the soil rather than the con-
    crete?  The water will be absorbed into the material that is
    most absorbant, and least restrictive.
    	I know people who have used this method and claim it works,
    but it's only been on things like dog pens, small fence posts,
    etc, that don't necessarily need alot more strength other than
    just being buried a few feet within some type of material.  My
    guess is that these posts would be just as strong buried in dirt,
    and that an analysis of the concrete, if dug up, would show that
    only a minority of the concrete ever got set.  I suppose there
    are applications where putting the concrete in the hole and then
    filling with water would be adequate, but I don't think a deck
    that is intended to last, is one of those.

One of the big things a sonotube does is reduce the amount of concrete you'll
use.  Odds are a hole will use a lot more.

-ark

    re .-1
    
    I would think carriage bolts instead of hex head bolt would work better
    as they shouldn't pull through when they are tightened up.
    
    -will

    If you have hex-head bolts, you ought to have washers under the
    heads too.
    Carriage bolts would look a little better, and they are designed
    for exactly that kind of application.  After all, why do you think
    they're called "carriage" bolts?  They were originally used to 
    bolt carriages together!  The little square section of shank under
    the head of a carriage bolt gets pulled into the wood and prevents
    the bolt from turning when you tighten the nut.  In theory.  You
    want a tight-fitting hole so it works that way.

RE: .52
    
>Anybody see me heading for disaster wih this new and noter-improved method?

Nope. You've eliminated the lateral movement and reduced the probability
of upheaving the 4x4 independent of the footing. While I'd argue for
the more conventional design (concret to just below the surface, etc) your
design will work.                                                   
                                                                    
As a nit, you said in reply .54:                                    
                                                                    
>The second, mentioned in an earlier reply, is rigidity of the 4x4. I want 
>it sunk into the ground, and know I can wack it with the lawnmower and not    
>knock it down!  8^)                                                
                                                                    
The use of additional concret and TECO fasteners provides more than enough
lateral stability and structural rigidity to ward off attacking lawnmowers
while allowing access for future repair or inspection. However, PTL
is supposed to last 30-40 years even when in direct contact with soil. 
                                                                      
>I have a problem with the idea of the little TECO gizzies that hold the 
>4x4 to the concrete.  If I don't fill the hole to the top with concrete 
>(much mixing, and less stability for the 4x4) I can't get into the 8 inch
>cylindrical shaft with a 4x4 *AND* a hammer!  8-)                    
                                                                      
You're right, it would cost you a small fortune to rent the special vertical
impact, narrow profile, sonotube hammer that you'd need! ;-)    <- Wink
                                                                   aka joking 
                                                                      
Good luck!
VCS
    

    
    
    re .52
    
    Personally I'd go below 4' if I were you. The Syracuse area is noted
    for the frost line going below 4' every few years or so. Thats why
    the code now calls for building structures to be at least 5' below
    ground level. Once back in 78 the frost level went to 6.5 feet.
    Telephone cables were barried at 6', and the place I was working
    for lost its telephone's because the frost caused the lines to snap.
    
    Mike

    I'm now starting to wonder why our house inspector suggested that the
    deck supports should be above the grade, since everyone here seems to
    be in favor of keeping the top of the concrete below ground level.  Was
    it simply his lack of faith in pressure treated wood? 
    
      Gary

<    I'm now starting to wonder why our house inspector suggested that the
<    deck supports should be above the grade, since everyone here seems to
<    be in favor of keeping the top of the concrete below ground level.  Was
<    it simply his lack of faith in pressure treated wood?

	First, I will disagree that everyone is in favor of putting the posts
	below ground level.  I for one would not recommend it, but it is an 
	acceptable practice with caution.  

	If you do bury the post below ground in clay soil you should figure
	that it will be in water saturated ground atleast 4 months of the
	year(Jan-May).  It will be subjected to freezing and thawing 
	cycles that could split the post.  4x4 PT is not treated through to 
	the core, so make sure the end buried in the ground is not cut 
	exposing the untreated wood.  Posts typically rot at the ends first,
	so your posts could be badly rotted before any visual evidence.  
	Finally, if you ever have to replace a post, it is a lot easier to 
	replace a post above ground then below, especially with a deck hanging
	over your head.

Brian

    I would also not be in favor of putting support posts below ground
    level if you don't have to.  Generally speaking, wood won't rot
    above ground; it won't rot below ground.  IT ROTS AT GROUND LEVEL,
    where the proper conditions of moisture exist.  Dig up an old
    wooden fencepost sometime, and note where the worst rot is.
    Anyway, by keeping the post totally above ground you avoid that
    magic ground-level microclimate area where most rot occurs.
    Pressure-treated wood is good stuff, but why invite trouble if
    you can easily avoid it?

    I had this discussion with my builder regarding the depth of sonotubes
    for my deck supports.  The building code specifies four feet below
    grade, but he went about two feet.  The guy is honest and competent
    and convinced me that this will be adequate.
    

                     
    >                       The building code specifies four feet below
    >grade, but he went about two feet.  The guy is honest and competent...
    
    	Sounds like these two statements are in direct conflict.  If
    he knows what the building code is and *chooses* to violate it,
    I'd hardly call that "honest and competent".  What else in the code
    has he cheated on a bit to save something as small as two feet of
    concrete for each support?  I'd start watching him closely and ask
    the building inspector to pay a visit *before* you sign the last
    check to the contractor.
    
    	Then again, perhaps you're building in Arizona... :-)
    
    							-craig

    Except that carriages were built with relatively hard lumber.
    
    Used in pine carraige bolts will 'strip' if you're not careful.
    Hex bolts, not as pretty, with washers can be tightened without
    that problem.
    
    Now, How tight does it have to be ??
    
    Want to see if a child is mechanically inclined ??
    
    Ask him to bolt up something and watch how much torque he applies.
    If it's just enough to not come apart unintentionally, he/she passes.
    If he/she stands on the wrench ... well ...
    
    This applies to childs of all ages - sometimes me.

    re .66
    
    Make that VERY honest and VERY competent.

>        re .66
>    
>    Make that VERY honest and VERY competent.

    You're probably right.  The fact that he didn't put your sono tubes
    deep enough and violated the building code, doesn't have much to
    do with his honesty and competence.  (As long as he didn't try to
    hide it from you.  And I assume he was competent enough to dig 2
    more feet, if he felt like it).
    

    	The decking search is over and unfortunately VG fir was ruled
    out due to costs.  Most of the yards I called *claimed* to have
    VG fir, but when I checked it out it was straight grain.  The only
    place I found that had VG fir decking was Jacksons Lumber and they
    wanted $.98 ln ft for 4" decking vs $.60 ln ft for 6" pressure treated.
    I couldn't justify the over 2x costs.  If anyone has first hand
    experience with a yard that sells VG fir for around $.60-75 ln ft
    please send me mail.
    	My question of the day is how far apart to space 5/4 x 6 pressure
    treated decking?  I've heard 1/4" and also to space it the width
    of a 10 penny nail.  The PT decking I've seen is pretty green, it
    squirts when you bang a nail into it.  I'm afraid if I do space
    it 1/4 inch the wood will dry and shrink leaving wide gaps between
    each plank.  
    	Taylor Rent All has a Botsch nail gun that shoots 8 penny decking
    nail.  These nails have a blunt point to prevent splitting, rings
    around the shank for better hold, are glue coated for a better hold,
    and have a small head.  The gun rents for $25/day, air compressor
    for $32/day and the nails run about a penny a piece.
    					=Ralph= 

>        	My question of the day is how far apart to space 5/4 x 6 pressure
>    treated decking?  
    
    Don't leave any spacing between them.  Why would you want to?  They're
    not going to be flush against each other anyway, and when they dry
    there will be even more space between them.
    

    The reason for some spacing is to keep junk (pine needles, leaf
    stems, etc) from collecting between the boards, which will keep
    it moist.  Sure PT is relatively immune, but it will look better
    without the crap caught in it.  
    
    I did mine with using a 10D nail as a spacer.  The resulting shrinkage
    made for a gap of 1/8 to 3/16  of an inch.  It stays nice and clean
    and dry.
    
    Bob

I'm in the process of having a new deck put up (12x16) and about 20' off
the ground and I'm looking for some different ideas for the railing around
the floor and down the stairs.  I was thinking of using lattice - has anyone
used this and how successful was it?  How did you install it so it fit
snugly?

I was also this of the new colonial spindles they have out made of PT wood.
These look really nice too.

I guess I'm looking for something other than the usual flat slats and would
appreciate any different ideas.  If it provided a little more privacy, that
would be a plus.

Thanks for any ideas/suggestions/tips.

Judy

    SEE YOUR LOCAL GROOSMAN'S DEALER. AT THE HOME SHOW IN NASHUA THAY
    GAVE OUT A BOOKLET WITH LOTS OF GOOD IDEA'S. THE SHOW WAS LAST 
    WEEKEND.
    DOUG

A good way to get ideas for such details is to examine the trim of the
existing house and/or other nearby structures.  Lovely colonial spindles
might look ridiculous if your house is contemporary, for example.  If the
house already has lattice someplace, then carrying that effect onto the
deck railing will help tie things together visually. 

    
    With a deck 20' off the ground I'd put anything BUT lattice up.
    
    I'm assuming that you are talking about the premade 4' x 8'
    stuff.  I don't think it's all that strong.
    
    -f
    

    I recall seeing an article on decking/landscaping in a magazine;
    none of the decks pictured used particularly unusual ralings or
    balustrades, but one builder had stained the railing a different
    color.  I have also seen railing *and* balustrades (I believe that's
    what you call the vertical supports) stained a different color.
    This was at a sort of 'mini-mall' of small stores in Newburyport,
    Mass.
    
    Believe it or not, it does give a new and refreshing look to fairly
    standard pieces of wood.  As an added touch, you can varnish, although
    from what I've heard you'll have to renew the varnish every few
    seasons (even marine varnish, which is preferred).
    
    As for lattice, yes, it is fairly weak for an area of the deck that
    will experience a lot of contact with people and objects (like outdoor
    furniture).  I used it for the skirt of my deck, but only because
    I could not find anything else that looked as good -- and, I am
    not crazy about the lattice at that!
    
    Otherwise, drive around the neighborhood, look at front porches,
    etc, and see what you like.  Good luck with your choice!
    
    							Steve

    My sister used a type of balluster (or really privacy screen) which
    I have seen in some other places and is really quite strong.  I'm
    not really sure about the dimensions of the wood but they are about
    1/2 X 4 slats that are positioned at an angle (instead of directly
    perpendicular) to the bottom and top railings of the deck and spaced 
    about 1 inch apart.  It's very sturdy and provides a lot of privacy.  
    
    

    	I was conserned about this issue to when building my deck a
    couple of years ago and discovered that that it depends on the deck
    placement, and dryness of wood. 
    	If the deck is going to be on the south side unprotected from
    sun's beating rays and the wood is soaking wet: leave no space.
    	If the wood is some what dryer as in being stored indoor's or
    protected from the rain before instalation leave about 1/16 inch
    = to 6d finish nail
    	If deck is going to be on any other side or protected from
    beating sun or if wood is DRY leave about 1/8-3/16= tight fit
    to a 8d decking nail.
    
    	The reason for leaving a space at all is to let the crap fall
    through. Sure when dryed the deck will have space but after 2 days
    of rain the wood will swell up to its original size. thus there
    will be no space to allow drianage of water and pine needles. This
    can be a big problem in the winter. Ice dambs will form between
    the decking preventing drainage and leaving several inches of ice.
    Of course this may be a non problem if you don't use your deck
    in winter like I do. I hate shoveling ice.
    
    			...Dave
    

re: .56

>General note: it's sonOtube!!!!  I don't know why, but the constant 
>freeform spelling is starting to make me crazy...

Actually, I believe Sonotube is a trademark, so whether you request a 
Sonotube, a Sonatube, or whatever, you will likely get a generic "form 
tube".

Clay

    There's also a cosmetic reason for the spacing. If you try to butt
    the decking side to side, there will always be some uneven-ness.
    This will be more visible with the very small spaces which develop
    as the wood dries and shrinks slightly. 
    
    If you intentionally space the decking, the small imperfections
    in the spacing get lost within the larger space.
    
    Another comment - I prefer to work with 4" instead of 6" - it's
    easier to force the warps out to get "reasonable" spacing appearance.
    
    Bill

    My neighbor used standard 2x4's but left an open "slot" in three
    places in which he mounted flower boxes. After his wife filled them
    with brightly-colored annuals, the deck railing was really dressed
    up.
    
    Mike

Here's a tip on straightening decking that a friend showed me when I
was building our deck. (BTW: We used 2x8s and had a lot of warped wood.)
    
    We nailed the ends of each plank in place using the appropriate size
    spacer. Due to warpage, the spaces were not even -- some planks touched
    in the middle, others had big spaces. After all the planks were down
    and the ends were nailed, we nailed the one next to the house down.
    Then he used a wooden wedge to force each plank into place so we
    ended up with even spacing.
                          
It took a little extra time, but it made the spacing look really nice
-- even now 3 years later!
                          

re: .0

>I was thinking of using lattice - has anyone used this and how successful
>was it?  How did you install it so it fit snugly? 

I did not use lattice as you described it, but I did look at several decks
with lattice when I was deciding how to finish off mine. The best
arrangement I saw was a lattice inserted in a 1"x1" frame, which was
then attached to the underside of the railing and posts. The frame used
a data cut to hold the lattice. I hope they left some space for expansion
and contraction if the lattice was dry! It looked like this.

------------------------------------------------------+
                                                      |  2x4 railing
-+---+-------------------------------------------+---++
 |   |+-----------------------------------------+|   |
 |   ||                                         ||   |
 |   ||                                         ||   |
 |   ||                                         ||   |
 |   ||                                         ||   |4x4 post
 |   ||        lattice panel                    ||   |
 |   ||                                         ||   |
 |   ||                                         ||   |
 |   ||                                         ||   |
 |   |+-----------------------------------------+|   |
 |   +-------------------------------------------+   |
 |   |  space (2-3"???)                    ^     |   |
        between frame and deck             |
                                           1x1 frame
                              
               
Since I wanted no obstruction to the view, I used screening in a wooden
frame. The building inspector accepted that since it would stop a small
child from tumbling off the deck. He didn't like it in the porch, since
there is no railing, but he accepted it. 
               
By the way, I did use lattice for the "skirt" under my deck/porch and I
found it to be a pain to paint or stain! The lattice I bought was too rough
for a roller, and I have never mastered my sprayer. Give some thought to
how much area you are signing up to paint or stain every n years.

    .75 sounds easier than the way we did my father's:  two of us nailing
    while the third leaned on a wrecking bar to keep the spacing right.
    
    Dick

	Re .14

	On the deck price:  If you subtract $1000 for removing the old
	deck and building stairs, it comes out to $4000/300 = $13/sqft.

	Today I was quoted $11.57/sqft for 12 x 18 = $2500 / 216 sqft ,
	one stairway, 6' above ground (by Hearthstone, Nashua, N.H.)

	Your deck sounds snazzier than mine, so you can expect bigger
	bucks.  E.g. my quote is for 2x6 joists, I think.

	It seems anything less than $11/sqft is almost a bargain.  Much
	below that, I'd wonder about design, materials, and work quality.

	Do decks add much to property value?

	Regards, Robert

    For both privacy and strength, you might consider using 1 x 4 boards in
    place of ballusters.  You could rout a 1" groove (actually smaller) on
    the top and bottom rails, and secure the boards in these. Space them
    maybe 1 or 2 inches apart. 
       
    Also, I've seen fences where the vertical boards (1 x 4 or 6) are
    attached to the horizontal beams in an alternating pattern. That
    is, one on one side, one on the other, and so on. 
       
                __  __  __  __  __  __  __  __  __                                   
       		================================== <-- beam
       		  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --           
                                                           
                                                           
    You cannot see through the pattern when standing perpendicular to 
    the fence, but can see through it when looking at an angle.  I would
    think this type of fence would provide adequate airflow through
    it -- another thing you'll want to consider. 
                                       
    Joe                                
    
                                    
                                                           

    
    	I just finished building my deck, its not 20' high but its high
    enough for the kids to get hurt should they fall down.  That was
    my major concern.  If your not going to have kids then don't read
    any further.
    
    	I used 4x4's (vertically) to support the railings. Then 2x4's
    to connect them together (horizontally) 2 of them and one 5x4 by
    6 on the top.  Then I used 2x2 p.t. (actual measurment is 1.5x1.5)
    ballusters every 3".  They are nailed from the inside so that the
    kids can push on them and can't go for a 20' fall.
    
    	All in all it is expensive but I would do it again, it is very
    safe and looks great.  Oh ya, using a 3" spacing you really get
    your privacy that way.
    
    john

    I used a railing similar to the previous reply.  Safety was my concern
    and I have about a ten foot drop.  I also wanted something just
    a little different from railing all the way around.  So, we went
    for a bi-level deck with a bench built in on one end.  The highest
    level was right at the door and then dropped a few inches for the
    rest of the deck.  The door area is big enough where you can open
    the door and at the same time not worry about tripping off onto
    the lower level.  Since my porch is big enough, I have room for
    that and all the patio furniture too.  This second level makes the
    deck closer to the ground, allows you have stairs that aren't as
    high, and still looks very, very nice - different.  The bench is
    built in on one end.  It looks similar to the park bench type. 
    The backing can be done a number of ways.  The seat and back do
    not, in my case, take up much floor space because it over hangs
    a little but still quite safe.  I have seen railings that were strictly
    box type to hold flowers (and combinations similar to it).  The
    box is set up a few inches off the floor.  I don't know if the height
    of your deck would prohibit this though because your rail is not
    3 feet high - more like 1 and 1/2 to 2 feet.  I agree with an earlier
    comment - look at the ornamentation and try to match.  I also agree
    with color.  The previous owners of my house had no taste for
    that......so I'm glad I had to replace it.  Don't be afraid to use
    molding and "finish" the appearance.  Alot of decks are more rough
    finish than not - of course, that's all personal taste and budget.
     

    Mine was similar to the last 2: Vertical 4x4's every 5 feet or
    so, horizontal flat 2x4's 4 inches from the bottom and 6 inches
    from the top of the 4x4's,  vertical 2x2's sandwiched between
    the flat 2x4s, (as opposed to nailed to the outside of the horizontal
    members). On top of the remaining 6 inches of the 4x4's, I put a
    2x6; sanded and routed round on the edges. It was a pain in the
    ass getting the 2x2's between the 2x4's, but I'm pleased with the
    result.
    
    John
    

    re .75
    	Thanks on the straightening tip, it worked like a charm.  I
    picked up my lumber on Friday afternoon, so I could take my time
    and sort it out.  I looked at about 40 pieces to get 30 and they
    were pretty straight.  My wife and I nailed each end down, spacing
    with a 8 penny finish nail.  I then used wedges and a hammer to
    keep the spacing even over the entire deck.  During the hot weekend
    the boards dried out and the space increased to about the width
    of an 8 penny common nail
    	It turns out that Taylor Rent All doesn't know that much about
    their pneumatic nailer.  They told me over the phone that they had
    8 penny 'decking' nails for the gun.  When I got there all they
    had were 8 penny common nails, not even galvanized.  I spent the
    weekend on my knees banging in 1000 8 penny galvanized A/T decking
    nails.  I now have more respect for the people who do it for a living.
    
                             
    					=Ralph=

    
    I just finished building a deck on my house and I am going to use
    1-1/2x1-1/2 ballusters on the railing. My question is, does anyone
    know what the code is for the spacing between the balusters? Is
    it 4 inches? I live in Maynard, Ma. I just want to double check
    before I do it.
    
    Thanks,
    BD
    

RE: " code is *too* lax on this point, use common sense "

	I agree fully, even tho my kids are much older. I used "2 by"
	ballusters, and mage a simple spacing jig from a piece of 
	leftover joist - worked well. My uniqueness, I guess, is that
	I lagged *each* balluster into the frame. That made an
	extremely strong (and in-expensive) assembly.

RE: .10 

	I have a real problem with the "safety" of a seat/bench as part
	of the deck railing. Knowing the propensity of little ones to
	climb all over seats, what's to prevent them from tumbling right 
	on over after they have gotten up to the seat level, and start
	pulling themselves up on the back? 


	Bill

    
    
    one style I like is using 2X2 balusters also .... I used 4X4 uprights
    every 5 or 6 feet and capped them with 6X5/4 decking  by putting
    one across the top and forming an upsidedown " L " shape with another
    facing out on top, then another facing out on the bottom about 4
    inches from the deck floor, then lagged the baluster on the outside
    of the decking, at the top of the baluster you can either round
    it or cut it at a 45 degree angle so it is flush with the top rail
    

    
    re .15:
    
    This is how I did mine except I used 2x4's for the cap and formed
    the upside down "L" using 2x6's with a 2x4 two inches from the deck.
    I haven't put the balusters on yet but I am going to lagg them from
    the outside also.
    	I also made it so the 4x4 poles stick up about 2 inches from
    the cap and I beveled the top edges. It looks real good.
    
    Bob
    
    

A new twist in the "should I seal PT now or later?" debate:

The lumberyard where I bought my PT decking (Osmose Sunwood) recommends
putting on a sealer ASAP after the deck is built.

They feel that the green and water-logged PT wood dries out too rapidly
without a sealant and will check and warp.  The guy I talked to compared
it to curing concrete--you don't want it to dry too fast.

My own experience with this new deck supports their belief:  the deck has
been up about two weeks and is already checking pretty noticably.

I took their advice and sprayed on some Cuprinol Clear Wood Seal which is
on sale out here for $6.95/gallon with rebate.  It's a water-based linseed
oil emulsion which puts a kind of waxy finish on the wood.  Hope it helps.

Brian

I need to make a beam out of sandwiched 2x8 pt for
	beam span - 9'6"
	beam spacing - 11'6"	(actually a beam on one side, and ledger lagged
				 to house on other)

It has to be 2x8 or less, due to the height of the piers and deck, but I will
sandwich as many together as needed.

Joists are 2x8 pt. 16" OC, bridged about midway, which is ok according to
my Sunset deck book.

Can someone give me the MASS code LEGAL beam size for this? My Sunset
book doesn't have figures for the sandwiched construction.  

Please, no speculations- have to make the inspector happy while avoiding
a consult with a structural engineer or architect.

Thanks.

Steve

	

<I need to make a beam out of sandwiched 2x8 pt for
<	beam span - 9'6"
<	beam spacing - 11'6"	
...
<Can someone give me the MASS code LEGAL beam size for this? My Sunset
<book doesn't have figures for the sandwiched construction.  

	Life is not that simple.  There are no such thing as code beams.  Codes 
	specify minimum live load/sq ft(30-40lbs/sq ft for single family 
	residence.).  For 95% of construction beam sizing are determined using 
	tables generate by trade associations and uniformly accepted by the 
	industry.  

	I do not have load tables for PT Southern Yellow Pine.  SYP is graded 
	by a different agency then most other softwood.  SYP is stronger then 
	standard SPF, but not as strong as Douglas Fir.  So, typically I would 
	use the SPF tables and know I have plenty of lead way.  In your case, 
	that yielded a requirement for 5 wide nominal 2x8.  You can not stack 
	more then 3 wide on top of a 4x4 and 4 wide on top of a 4x6.  So in 
	your case my quick estimation technique won't work.  

<Please, no speculations- have to make the inspector happy while avoiding
<a consult with a structural engineer or architect.

	The normal caveats apply.  You should have all designs reviewed by the 
	building inspector or practicing engineer before construction.  The 
	building inspector should be very helpful.  All the advice you receive 
	in the note should be treated as speculative.  There are PE in this 
	group that are nice to provide information and can run into legal 
	problems if the "advice" they provide is miss used.  

	The building inspector is indemnified, and the practicing engineer is 
	insured.  I assume most noters are not insured.

	If you understand all this I may be nice enough to run the calculations 
	through stress strain tables for you, or maybe somebody has load tables
	for SYP and can read them(they are more difficult then SPF).

Brian   SYP=Souther Yellow Pine    SPF=Spruce-Pine-Fir

re: .79

Thanks. I thought there might be a simple table somewhere like the one
in the deck book for 2x8, 2x10, 4x8, etc.

Because of the ground and floor height, the beam has to rest right on top
of the piers -- no post.

I understand the Notes caveats.

Thanks.

    Old note, new reader...
    
    I thought the sonotube message about removing the tube after pouring
    was strictly for column-type uses above ground.  Removal would prevent
    sticking and maybe allow you to modify the exterior texture of the
    pillar.  
    
    But I'm no expert...
    
    Sherry

	Re: .80  There actually are simplified tables, but I just don't have 
	them.  Plus, doing the calculations can be fun.  Here is the size based 
	on .78.
	You should be able to use 3-2x8 PT #2 SYP.  This beam should be able to 
	support an additional overhang(cantilever) of 1ft.  Calculations are 
	available on request.  

	You are concerned about your limited height, so here are a few pointer. 
 	There should be at least 4", preferably 6", between the bottom of the 
	beam and the ground.  Taper the sides of the pier from the beam to 
	the edge to allow for drainage.  Direct mounting of beams to piers is 
	the very difficult to level.  I have a few ideas here but have not tried 
	them.

	You have a few options to mount the joist to the beam.  

	BEST

		_______________________
		_______|_______|_______|
				    |  |	Rest framing on top of the 
			Joist	    |  |	the beam, allows best moisture
				    |  |	and air circulation.
		____________________|__|	
			|      |		Disadvantage:  Tallest Option
			| Beam |
			|      |
			|______|
		       /	\
		      /__________\


	ACCEPTABLE
		____________________________
		_______|______|______|      |
				     |      |	Minimum Height with good air
			Joist	     | Beam |	and moisture circulation.
				     |	    |
		_____________________|      |	Disadvantage:  must use 2x10 
				     |______|	stock for beam. Need perfect fit
				    /	     \	of decking.  Beam needs to be #1
				   /__________\	for appearance reasons.  Some
                                             effect from expansion coefficients.

	NOT ADVISABLE

		_____________________________
		____|____|____|____|____|____|
				      |      |	  Minimum height
			Joist	      |      |
				      | Beam |	  Disadvantage:  Moisture can 
		______________________|______|	  collect under decking at the
				     /        \	  beam.  Effect of expansion 
				    /__________\  coefficients greater.


	Brian

	Standard caveat about consulting a practicing engineer or building 
	inspector applies.

	P.S.  I did these calculations as much for myself, because I am writing
	an expert system to help with deck designing(was framing design, long 
	story deleted).  If anyone has any tips or hints let me know.

    How does one decide how thick piers should be? I'll be putting up
    a free-standing deck about 7' by 25' on 8 piers.
    
    Thanks,
    Chuck (who already bought 6" Sonotubes and is getting a little nervous)

Re: 

Many thanks. If you have the calculations handy, please mail me a copy
(paper if need be, LKG1-2/A19).  I am curious to see how it works.

The only option I have for mounting the joists is your "best" option.
We had an addition put on our house 2 years ago, and then had the backyard
regraded. The contractors put in most of the piers, and set the height such
that they would work for 2x8 joists resting on top of 2x8 beams, and just come
out slightly below the back door opening.  Unfortunately, the piers are just
at ground height, and the ground height is more or less fixed, since there is
a large retaining wall about 18" behind the piers. So I can't lower the ground
there without potentially disturbing the base of the wall, which just sits on
the ground.  I dug about a four inch trench under the beams, and covered 
everything with lots of gravel, so will get at least a little drainage.
I will have to assume that the p.t. really does last when in
ground contact.  But if it doesn't, I have much worse problems, since my
retaining wall is 6x6 p.t. in ground contact.

Steve.

    .re .7
    	Reading in the Ortho Deck Planning Books, they suggest you use
    bolts thru the ledger which is attached to the house but leaves
    an air space between the ledger and the house by employing washers
    as spacers.  This allows the water to pass between the ledger and
    the house and the house siding performs as anywhere else.

	        /
	  +-+   /
	  | |   /
bolt ->  [|=|(((/
head      | |   /
          +-+   /

           ^  ^ ^
           |  | |
ledger-----+  | |
washers ------+ |
siding ---------+

    p.s. I realize this is a late entry but felt others my still have
    questions.

    If you stagger the bolts (instead of lining them up), there will
    be very little torque placed on them (and thus little imposed bending
    load).  If the washers are fairly thin, resulting in the ledger
    being about 1/8" or so from the house, and the bolt snugged up fairly
    tight, then there will be virtually no bending load imposed on the
    bolt.  I'd be more concerned about the wood than the bolt.

	I put a small space (1/8") between my front porch and my 
	house, using the washer method.  I found that because of
	this space, all sorts of pine needles and dirt get caught
	in there.  This creates a lot of wetness between the woods
	that stays a long time.

	And 1/8" is too small a gap to try to clean out after every 
	rain storm.  I don't know if a small gap is better or worse than
	no gap at all.

	Just my $.02.
	-- Jim Morgan

    RE .12
    	I too was worried about junk collecting in the space between
    the sill plate on my house and the header for the deck.  I put the
    space in with washers to prevent rot, but also used flashing over
    the decking.  I tucked the flashing under the clapboards on the
    house and had it overhang the deck decking by about 1/2".  I also
    sloped the first piece of decking away from the house to keep the
    water away from the space.  I hope this will keep the leaves and
    pine needles out.
    				=Ralph=
    
    	

    
    		I'm one of those who are a little skeptical of the
    washer/space method. To me it seems like a lot of extra work for
   little or no advantage. Sure with a space you don't trap moisture
   but it still will get wet in/around this area. It's just going to
    take a little longer to dry out and if you do a proper instalation
   job even with out the space you should not be getting that much water
   between deck and house anyways.
    
    	As for reply -.1 if you have a space and are getting stuff down
    in there it sounds to me like only half the job was done. Someone
    put a space in to let it dry out but forgot to put on flashing to
    feep the water out in the first place. If this is the case flash
    it ASAP. If you live in a cold weather climent this problem could
    be big trouble! (Read: ICE damage).
    
    
    			...Dave
    

        Someware in  the  replys on decks I saw someone describbed how to
        put down decking  boards  that might be bent.  I am using 2x6 for
        flooring and a couple are warped (bent the long not just twisted)
        I am looking for an easy way to nail them down straight.

	RE:                    -< Warped floor boards >-
	
	Tack another board a couple inches away from the one that is warped.
	Use two wedges at each joist and wedge the board into place.  Use a 
	piece of shingle or hardboard as a spacer, instead of nails.  Nails 
	leave dimples in the side of the boards.  Use annular ring nails for 
	additional holding power.

	For more info check under hardwood floors. 

	Brian

In response to the question of what was the tip that was offered elsewhere
in the conference:

Note 221.75                       Deck Supports                         75 of 83
DSTR08::SMICK "Van C. Smick"                         13 lines  10-JUN-1988 07:46
                     -< TIP: Straightening Warped Decking >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here's a tip on straightening decking that a friend showed me when I
was building our deck. (BTW: We used 2x8s and had a lot of warped wood.)
    
    We nailed the ends of each plank in place using the appropriate size
    spacer. Due to warpage, the spaces were not even -- some planks touched
    in the middle, others had big spaces. After all the planks were down
    and the ends were nailed, we nailed the one next to the house down.
    Then he used a wooden wedge to force each plank into place so we
    ended up with even spacing.
                          
It took a little extra time, but it made the spacing look really nice
-- even now 3 years later!
                          

    One noter several replies back claimed that a french door would look
awful with screens.  Any comments?  Can they practically and esthetically
co-exist?

    (For my purposes here, "french" means a two-panel doorway with at least
one hinge - a rather broad definition.)

    
    	RE: .28
    
    	> Can they practically and esthetically co-exist?
    
    	I think that the 'full screen' type could co-exist quite well.
    	The other types; not in my opinion.  They look wonderful all
    	by themselves but the problem is that they also look wonderful
    	*open*, which in buggy areas requires screens.

    Maybe I missed something...
    
    	I thought a split (top and bottom) hinged door was a Dutch door.
    
    	A door with many panes of glass from top to bottom (no splits)
    		was a French door.
    
    	Then there are Christian doors - 6 panels with the cross
    
    	Then the newer types they've been coming out with these days
    
    	Of course theres always the just old plain "door"

re:  .30  Yes, I took a calculated risk using the term "french" door.  (See the
previous 1,749 replies to this base note for more term-definition discussion).

Well, to answer my own question, I saw the style of door we want at a building
supply place - one fixed panel, one hinged.  A _sliding_ full-screen door is
available for this unit.  It slides by straddling one ridge in the aluminum
sill, unlike most sliders that slide inside a channel.  It can be removed easily
for cooler weather.  And it looks fine.  Sounds like the door for us.

    I have to attach a small ground-level deck to my house.  Small = 2' x
    3': this is actually a step outside the newly installed door to my
    kitchen. 
    
    I plan to fix a leger to the house, 3' long and ~10" below the
    threshold of the door.  Then I'll use joist hangers nailed to the
    ledger.  The far end of the joists will meet a band joist, and will
    rest on a couple of PT 6"x6" that are already in place.  No, they
    do not go down four feet, but for a step this size, I'm not too worried. 
    
    My question is: how to fix the ledger?  It has to go against the
    concrete foundation wall.   I have three suggestions:
    
    1.	Lag screws into lead anchors in 3/4" hoes in the concrete.
    
    2.  PowerNails
    
    3.  Construction Adhesive.
    
    1 is obviously best.  I have done this before on a 14' x 14' deck
    that was to hold a wood-fired hot tub!  But it seems like overkill
    on a step of this size.  My objection is that I'll have to rent a
    rotohammer, or spend 2 hours with a star drill.  All to install
    two, or maybe three lag screws.
                                                                  
    So, my real question is whether I can avoid a trip to the rental
    store by using what I have on hand, or whether my alternatives
    are a recipe for a "why did they ever do that" note.
    
    	Andrew
    

    I would ***NOT*** go with the construction adhesive for something
    like a step. There's too much potential for injury if it should
    fail.  
    The nails ought to work, but personally I'd go with #1, using
    Star brand Tamp-ins for 3/8-16 bolts; they go in 3/4" diameter
    holes and the holes have to be only about 1+" deep, so they
    aren't too bad to drill.  I put in four and drilled the holes
    with a 3/4" masonary bit in a regular variable-speed drill.
    You need a special tool to seat the Tamp-ins that costs a few
    bucks, but then you'll have it forever.

    	After putting up the deck in June, I'm finally getting around to
    the railing.  Could someone point me to the MA state building code
    section that addresses the following questions:
    
       1) Min and Max height of railing:
       2) Max distance between railing support posts:
       3) Max distance between balusters:  (listed as 6" in previous
     	  reply)
    
    	
        I know what I want it to look like, I just want to keep my friends
    at the building department happy.
    
    					=Ralph=
     	      
    

      I'm  not sure about the minimum height -- I think its 36".  As for
      how close the ballisters -- The  UBC  requirement  is  that  a  9"
      sphere cannot pass through the railing. So the practial requirment
      is not greater than 9" on center.

    re: .17
    
    Ask your friendly inspector, Ralph!
    
    (It worked for me)
    
    Bill

    	I called the local inspector to confirm my information about
    deck railings.  He does not like to answer questions, but is more
    than happy to double check your figures.  Anyway the answers were:
    
    Rail height				36" minimum
    Space between rail supports         48" max
    Space between balusters		 9"
    
    	I'm sure glad I waited until the hottest weekend of the year
    to put up the railings!  I nailed 2x4's with the 4" side along the
    joists for rail supports.  I nailed a 2x4 3" from the top and another
    3" from the bottom to connect the supports and provide a place to
    nail the balusters.  I then used 2x2 balusters every 6-7
    inches.  I sandwiched the rail supports and balusters along the
    joist with another 2x8 and used 2 6" hex bolts through each 
    sandwiched rail support.

                    		=Ralph=
    
    (now if I can only get the stairs done)

    	This may not be the best location for the note but I'll try
    here anyway.....
    
    	Well, I've got the deck up, railings up and now I need to build
    the stairs.  I haven't the foggiest idea how to do it.  The deck
    is only 4.5 feet up but the ground below is sloping and uneven.
    The width of the opening is 40".  I want the stairs to be open so
    I will only be using treads not the kick plates.
    	I've seen precut PT stair stringers at Grossie's.  Other than
    that can someone give me a few hints?  I know I've got to pour a
    level cement pad to rest the stairs on.
    
    					=Ralph=

    Steps are amazingly easy to make when you know how.
    
    First off, there is a formula (which I don't have handy but will
    look up if you'ld like) which gives you the proper proportion of
    tread to riser. The higher the rise the narrower the tread.
    
    Also you can buy a pair of stair gauges. These are little clamps
    that fit on your framing square so that you get the correct rise/tread
    every time. These are invaluable for laying out stairs and rafters
    and cheap besides.
    
    Once you've cut one stringer, use it to lay out the others. 
    
    Be careful, make sure your deck and pad are level and you shouldn't
    have any problems.
    
    Alan

    	Has anyone used the stair hangers available from TECO?  They
    are basically a beefed up shelf bracket that attaches to two 2x10's
    and 2x12's are used for the treads.  They look like the easy way
    to go, but will they work for a 40" step?  
    
    				=Ralph=
    
    Something tells me I'm about to add a stair guage to my tool
    collection.. 

    That's exactly what I used on the steps I need to rip out!  The
    TECO brackets.  I don't know if I went 40" but I did go more than
    20".  I was using 5/4" decking for treads so I thought I could get
    away with it.
    
    It took nearly as much time to install the teco brackets and get
    them level and all as it would have to cut the stringers.
    
    I didn't save any time.
    The brackets were $1.10 ea.
    They don't work worth a damn.
    They don't save a whole lot of time.
    
    You can't use them anywhere that you need more than 2 stringers.
    
    TECO brackets are good.  FORGET THE STAIR BRACKETS!

    One guideline I know of:
    
    Do your best to have all the risers the same height.  If, for some
    weird reason you can't, put the "odd" step at the bottom of the
    stairs, so when people trip because of it they won't have as far
    to fall.
    

re .33

    The width of the opening is 40".  I want the stairs to be open so
    I will only be using treads not the kick plates.

My house inspector (Paul Volpe of Cornell, they've gotten lots of good
"notices") pointed to an open stair on my house and said that it was unsafe,
because it is easy to accidentally slip your foot through and get it
caught behind the tread.  He told me how he inspected a house one winter
with this problem, pointed it out, walked up it, and almost broke his
ankle anyway when he skidded on some ice and got stuck.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

    What is a good price range for a 16x16 deck made of pressure 
    treated wood? How about an estimate for a 4x8 bathroom that
    needs to have the concrete floor broken for piping?
    
    --wch--

    I just did a 10 x 13 for $450 if that helps.
    
    All pressure treated #1 lumber, 4 post anchors.

    Just for materials, a friend of mine paid $1200 for a 12X16 with
    6 posts.

    Oh! By the way, I did my own bathroom and had to sink a sewerage
    ejection system in my concrete floor. I rented what I call a jack
    hammer to dig the trench for the drain pipes. The hammer went for
    about $50 a day, the ejection system for about $400, PVC drain pipes
    ,joints, and misc. for a shower, toilet, sink, and utility sink about
    $50 for the length I had to run. Hope this helps!

    I am getting estimates now for a deck but they seem abit high.
    One was $3,890 and another was about $3,500.  I do not have the
    time to build this myself- anyone want to build a deck?
    
    --wch--

    Regarding -.4
    
    That sounds correct it you are having a deck about the dimensions
    of around 12X16.

    It is cheaper in New Jersey- about $8-$10 a square foot for someone
    to build it.  Why so expensive here?
    
    --wch--

    
    
    I just finished building a 12'x20' deck myself for $800 using PT
    wood. I got prices of $4000 and up for someone else to do it. Maybe
    I'm in the wrong buisiness. 
    
    Bob
    
    

    I built decks part time after work and I charged about $8.00 a sq.
    ft. I built an 18 x 18 deck with all pressure treated lumber, 4
    x 6 support beams and 6 lalley columns. Two set of stairs, ballusters
    all the way around, flower boxes built on the rails and a bench
    built with 4 x 6 supports and 2 x 6 seat and back. I charged $2600.
    
    The reason decks cost more up here (New England), than in N.J. is
    that there is so much new construction and remodeling going on that
    contractors get their price or they go someplace else and get it.
    If you want the work done you have to pay their price, or hire someone
    like myself who will take a little longer to finish since it is
    only done evenings and weekends. But the savings are quite substantial.

	I was quoted $2500 for a 12 x 16 with one stairway.

	I hired them.  The deck is now finished, partly by me.

	I've paid them $1400.

	Lesson: go look at decks your contractor has built.  This will
	give you a quick measure of your contractor's price/value
	ratio.

	Many notes in this file suggest what to look for, e.g. bark-side
	up on decking.  Also check for smoothness of bannisters, if you
	plan a stairway.  If you can, ask other owners how deep their
	deck's concrete footings are.  (So. N.H. code requires 4 feet.)

	Regards, Robert.

    
    I'm currenty finishing a 16x18 deck with a 4x5 landing off to one side
    and 14 foot long stairs to the ground below.  The entire deck is
    anywhere from 7-10 feet off the ground.  I've dug 8 footings/columns,
    and mixed all my own concrete, and poured a 5x3 stair stoop as well. 
                                                                         
    The Deck is alternating 2x6 and 2x4's, all of which are #1 select from
    PF O'Connor.  (I didn't receive any bad boards from them!)
                                              
    Currently the deck has cost about 1500$ in materials.
    
    						.dave.
    
    ps - the Nashua City Professional Engineer that reviews the building
    permits requires footings under the sono tubes, all of which must
    be four feet down.  One of my footings, the central one, had to
    be 21x21 inches; fortunately I was digging in sand.  Also, he is
    a really nice guy and will answer any of your questions.

    RE: .10.....
        
   >ps - the Nashua City Professional Engineer that reviews the building
   >permits requires footings under the sono tubes, all of which must
   >be four feet down.  One of my footings, the central one, had to
   >be 21x21 inches; fortunately I was digging in sand.  Also, he is
   >a really nice guy and will answer any of your questions.
   
    I'm also in the middle of building a deck (15 x 16, about 5 feet
    high). Nashua modified my plans because they required a footing
    only under the MIDDLE sono pier, not under all three piers (I'm
    using a 6 x 10 beam which is supported by the three piers),maybe
    because of the height of your deck, full footings were required,
    but that doesn't appear to be the rule all the time. And if all
    you hit digging in Nashua was sand, consider yourself very lucky.
    While excavating, I hit more rock than a quarry has! No wonder NH
    is called the granite state!! But to agree with the last part of
    .10, though submitting plans and having inspections is a pain, the
    Nashua Building's Dept. was easy to work with and were quite helpful.
                                                                         
    Eric

    re. 84
    It shouldn't stick out past the outside joist at all. I'd put it
    flush.

<	how far should the beam stick out each side of the joists?     
<	The whole thing is only a foot off of the ground, if that makes any 
<       difference.  

	I am assuming you mean how far should the beam stickout beyond the side
	of the deck?  It should not.  On a deck that low anything sticking out 
	could cause someone to trip or scrape their leg.  

	If you are concerned about racking because the deck is so narrow, don't 
	lengthen the beam, reinforce the deck against lateral movement.  One 
	method would be:

	   1)  Build the deck frame using single side joists.  

	   2)  Attach the 4x6x8' beam to the piers(do not cut)

	   3)  Attach deck to house, square and attach to beam.  

	   4)  Saw beam flush with sides.  This will probably require a 
	   hand saw to get in close.  

	   5)  Nail a 2x8 apron around the deck.  Miter the outside corners 
	   so no end grain is exposed.  Nail approximately 2 nails/foot 
	   alternating inside and outside.  This is similar to what you where
	   going to do, but the extra 2" depth of the apron will prevent 
	   lateral movement and cover the beam so the deck will look like it 
	   is floating.  This basic concept can be modified based on how you 
	   want to cover the deck.  If you want to cover the end grain of the 
	   decking, use a 2x10 for the apron and extend it up to be level with 
	   the top of the decking.

	The height of the deck does matter.  Since the deck is only a foot off 
	the ground, I assumed you were not planning on adding a railing.  If 
	you do add a railing, the beam should not stick out any farther then 
	the railing.  

	Since the deck will be only a foot off the ground and the beam will 
	practically rest on the ground, make sure you grade the area under the 
	deck to force the water away from the beam and house.
	

    Re: .86
    
    I wish I had asked you this before I bought the lumber!  I like the
    idea of the 2" x 8" apron, but now I have cut amd mounted the ledger
    assuming that the side joists themselves wil be mitred.
    
    I don't think that it is practical to build the deck and then fix
    it to the house!  I figure that I will cut the beam first, and fix
    it in place parallel to the house wall -- and that will *define*
    the square area that the deck will cover.
                  
    I may add the 2" x 8"s yet.  But an alternative that has just occured
    to me is to add 2" x 4" or 4" x 4" "pegs" on the front and back of the
    beam at either end, and sticking up 5" above it.  The side joists could
    then be nailed to these pegs as well as to the beam itself.  Once the
    decking was on, none of this would be visible.  The idea of the
    internal pegs is the same as of your external frame -- to eliminate any
    sideways movement of the deck with respect to the beam. 
                                                                
    Is this a good, bad, or indifferent idea?
    
    	Andrew
                                                           

    What should I cover my porch floor with?    I originally had a 14X18
    foot deck with 2X6 pressure treated planks for the flooring. I have
    since enclosed the deck to be a four seasons room. The exterior
    is completly done, the electrical and insulation is done and now
    I need to figure out what to use to cover the floor. I will be putting
    down carpeting. The 2X6 planks presently there have 1/4 inch spacings
    between them. I thought about 1/2 inch plywood over the 2X6planks.. Is
    that too thick? Is something else better/cheaper? 
    
       By the way, original estimates were anywhere from 12K to 17K to
    do the job excluding electrical, insulation and inside work. It
    took off and on from May to Oct to get the job to this state and
    has only cost me $5100. The job came out better than I would ever
    imagine. Savings allowed me to buy a sailboat. ( My wife didn't
    understand my reasoning).
                                                Bill

    With 2x6's for a rough floor, you could use 1/4" luan plywood. 
    The luan has no voids, and should be sufficient to cover 1/4" spaces
    between the planks.
    
    Luan is about $10 for a 4x8 sheet.  
    
    Bob
    

     I'm having a problem with a leak from an outside porch when we have
 wind blown rain.  I have a duplex and it has a front entrance way for
 both sides.  SEE DIAGRAM...



              ------------------------------------------
              |                                        | 
             *|                                        |*
             *|                                        |*
             *|                                        |*
             *|                                        |*
             *|                                        |*
              |                                        |
               <--------------------------------------->
                              8-9 feet wide

                               3-4 feet deep

              * these are the doors to enter apartments

There is an out door carpet on this area.  There is 3/4 plywood under it.

What can I do to waterproof this for GOOD?!!

I was thinking of taking up the rug..putting in a subfloor of ?  and the putting

quarry tile down.  Will that make it to slippery when wet?   What should I use 
 
for my sub floor?  Is there a product made for this type of problem?

Below this porch in the basement I have a freezer so I'll need to fix this soon.

Any suggestions will be GREATLY appreciated.

							John

    Yup.  The product is used for flat decks over living space.  Its
    a sheet of rubber.  This also implies some degree of pitch away
    from the house.  
    
    Lift the rug and apply the cover.  If you want to add some pitch
    tack down some cedar shingles on the plywood, add some 1/2" plywood
    over that, the latex cover and replace the rug.
    
    A quick fix would involve a seal of silicon caulk around the edges.
    

    I just had a deck built with pressure treated wood.  Now I'm
    wondering if I should stain it or do nothing?  I know I will
    not use paint.

    This has been discussed to some length already.
    
    I believe the consensus was to wait a minimum of 6 months.

    You might want to put a clear sealer on it now to slow down the
    drying of the PT wood (which usually is not kiln dried).  Unsealed
    PT will check severely if it dries to fast.  This won't affect the
    strength of the deck, only the appearance.  Then you can stain it
    in 6-12 months.

    Bob                                                            
    

    I am getting ready to put down the floor for my newly built pressure
    treated deck. i would like to use galvanized finish nails so there
    will not be a lot of nail heads showing.
    
    Is this an acceptable way to secure 5/4 x 4" decking? If not, what
    could/should I use for nails? My brother used nails that had roofing
    nail size heads on them and they look awfull.
    
    Thanks,
    Jack

    I have two suspicions:
    
    1.  Finish nails won't work - the heads (what little there is) will
    pull through the decking.
    
    2.  Someone already discussed this in one of the notes in the list
    created by "DIR/TITLE=DECK", below:
    
 Topic  Author               Date         Repl  Title
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    75  THORBY::MARRA         3-MAR-1986    18  How do I preserve untreated deck wood?
   106   11740::JOHNSON      26-MAR-1986    14  deck plans
   221  FRSBEE::PAGLIARULO   30-JUN-1986    87  Deck Supports
   382     POP::SUNG         12-SEP-1986     3  Staining a PT deck
   511  GENRAL::RYAN         28-OCT-1986    13  Pressure treated wooden deck: water seal now or later?
   985  BEANCT::VANCLEAVE     7-APR-1987     6  Garage under a deck?
  1098  NUTMEG::RYAN          4-MAY-1987    39  *** CEMENT FOR DECK SUPPORTS? ***
  1198   GYPSY::SMOLINSKI     5-JUN-1987     2  screen in decks
  1260  TRACTR::DOWNS        25-JUN-1987    16  How to attach deck to house????
  1358   DAIRY::LASSEN       27-JUL-1987    12  Help building a weather-tight deck
  1447  SPKALI::THOMAS       25-AUG-1987     9  Replacing deck - rotted against house
  1463  PATSPK::DAIGLE       28-AUG-1987     6  Deck Squares (Blocks)
  1553    KANE::BALDYGA      21-SEP-1987     6  California deck info\
  1663   TROLL::MENDES        2-NOV-1987     6  Flashing for Deck
  1704   EPOCH::JOHNSON      13-NOV-1987     4  Treatment for ice on PT deck?
  2147  DOODAH::WIEGLER      25-MAR-1988     5  Deck & Sliders: Which comes first?
  2219  DECWET::MCWILLIAMS   14-APR-1988    29  Deck Over Old Foundation?
  2237   BEING::PETROVIC     21-APR-1988     9  Large canvas/cloth awnings over a deck...
  2249  FLIPIT::PHILPOTT     27-APR-1988    15  Sears "Designer Decks"
  2300   EPOCH::JOHNSON      18-MAY-1988     0  Flower Boxes for PT Decks
  2303  SUBSYS::SETO         18-MAY-1988     3  Building Code for Deck
  2349  DECEAT::GOLDSTEIN     1-JUN-1988     6  Oak tree vs. new deck
  2380     JON::MCMILLEN      9-JUN-1988    20  IDEAS FOR DECK RAILINGS
  2478   NEXUS::COMULADA     20-JUL-1988     4  How to support SPA on a deck?
  2617  HPSRAD::HWANG         6-SEP-1988     5  Adding a bathroom and deck
  2664  HPSRAD::HWANG        29-SEP-1988    11  Price for deck?

Presenting the dissenting view: :^)

    1.  Finish nails work fine.  There's not ever really much force trying
	to pull up your floor decking, so the nails don't ever have reason
	to pull through.  I'd use 8d nails for 5/4 decking.
    
    2.  Although someone surely did discuss this in a previous note, it's
	certainly worthwhile to have this new one, so the next person wondering
	about decking nails doesn't have to look through a list of 40 notes.
	And also, BTW, these notes could be found much more quickly using
	1111.21 (directory of keyword DECKS_AND_PORCHES)
    
Paul

Ditto on the finishing nails. I used them three years ago on my back
deck and there are no signs of puling up whatsoever. Just be sure to
sink the heads, otherwise the galvanizing will wear off allowing the
nails to rust-stain the wood.

Chris

Ditto the ditto on the finish nails... 8-)

I used #10, but thats because I have 2x6 decking.  Sinking the heads isn't 
a big deal... just make sure the last WHAP! was a good one, and they should
set in pretty well without leaving rosebuds.   Every other year or so, you
may (...just *MAY*)  have to reset a few that happen to crop up due to 
temperature variation, but its not that big a deal.

Bob

P.S. ...  Your brother's a goof!  8^)  

    Would you agree that the best approach is to power-nail fluted,
    glue-coated nails?
    
    If so, don't you need a head on the other end to hold things together?
    
    If not, you're at odds with most of those who write books about
    how to build decks (from what I've read).
    
    Those who have used finish nails and have replied here: it may have
    worked for you, but I'll bet you're the exception and not the rule.

    Would I agree that the best approach is to power-nail fluted,
    glue-coated nails?  Not particularly.  This is just to hold
    the deck down, not to hold the frame together.  A couple of
    years ago I pulled up my old porch floor, held together with
    square-cut ungalvanized nails (it was an OLD floor!) and those
    nails resisted my prying and pulling efforts just fine.  I
    wouldn't worry about finish nails pulling out, or pulling through.
    As Paul (?) said, there is no reason for them to pull out or
    pull through -- the floor just sits there.  When I put down
    the new floor on my porch, I used 8d galvanized box nails,
    and after 3 years there is no sign of movement.

    
    My brother in law and I just built a deck and used a galvanized
    twist nail with a head only slightly larger than a finish nail.
    
    I think they were 6D nails - could have been 8D.  Hold like gangbusters
    and look decent.
    
    The only place I've seen them is East Coast Lumber in Hampstead
    N.H.  They were the only place that I could find 1X PT stock.  We
    needed 1X8 stock for the riser on the stairs.

    
    I used #10 galvanized finish nails on my 5/4 decking and it looks
    MUCH,MUCH better than using common nails. There's plenty of holding
    power and both decks have been up for a while with NO problems.
    Use the longest nails you can get away with but over #10 may be
    overkill. A friend of mine used #16 finish, alittle tricky hammering
    them down without bending though.
    
    Bob

    I have used spiral siding nails.  I believe that is what is refered
    to in .7.  They hold very well and have a head just slightly larger
    than a finish nail.  They don't drive badly in the SYP unless it
    is old and dry then nothing drives well in it.  I agree that if
    the last hammer stroke is a good one then there should be not need
    to set the heads further.  Getting a little chilly to finishing
    a deck, hope it is on the sunny side of the house.
    
    	Peter Duke
    

    Since everyone is entering their advice....
    	There is a special nail to for nailing down decking.  It is
    called an A/T DECKING nail.  The nails have rings around the
    shank just as a flooring nail does.  I used 8 penny size.  Yes,
    they have a head and they do have a tendency to bend it not
    struck squarely.  They are pretty damn hard to pull out.  Take
    a look at a couple of decks and see what you like.
    	Remember to read the notes about spacing and bending in warped
    decking.
    				Good Luck
    				=Ralph=
    
    	(my black thumb nail from my deck nailing experience is finally
    gone!)

    My father, my brother, and I have all used finish nails on our decks
    and have had no problems with them pulling through.  My dad's deck
    is over 10 years old.
    
    I've also used PT adhesive for decking boards and it works great.
    It allows you to reduce the number of nails.
    
    Pre-drilling SYP or blunting the nailheads will help avoid splitting.
    
    Bob 

BTW, I think it was last month I saw a new product mentioned in Fine 
Homebuilding.  They are little galvanized pieces called "Declips", and they 
work something like this:


--------------------------------. .--------------------------
				| |
				|#|   _____ Spur		### is Declip
				|#|  /
Decking				/###>			Decking
			       /|#|
			      / |#|
			     /  |#|
----------------------------/---'#`---------------------------
			   /###########
--------------------------/----------|------------------------
			 /	     |
			/	     |
   Joist	       / ---Nails--- |
		      /		     |
				     |
				     |

The way they work is, (working from left to right), you slip a Declip under the
previous piece of decking, drive a diagonal nail through the clip and through 
the edge of the previous piece of decking, holding down that edge of the 
decking.  You drive another nail straight down through the clip to hold it 
securely.  Then you put the next piece of decking on, driving it onto the spur 
of the Declip to keep that edge secure.  They have two advantages: 1) No nails 
show on the face of the decking, and 2) The decking is held up off the joists, 
which prevents rot.  They were mentioned as a new product, so I have no idea 
where you could get them.  They probably mention the company in the article, 
I'll try to remember to dig it up and post it here.

Paul

    Re: .12
    I saw those things at Coldwell's in Berlin, Mass., about a month
    ago.  Presumably other lumber yards will have them too.

Peter Hotton (Boston 'Globe' Handyman) has been recommending some sort
of construction adhesive for gluing decking down.  No nails at all.
I disagree that there is no load on decking.  Uneven weathering, walking,
and other loads will try to  pull decking off.  Finish nails may work okay
if the body of the nail holds well enough.  A good galvanized ringed nail
is needed, but I've never seen such without a head.  I used PTL nails.
(Not the '700 club', but Pressure Treated Lumber nails.)  8D, hot dipped
galvanized for 5/4 x 6 decking.
- tom]

                                UNCLE! UNCLE!
    
    Seems I'm outnumbered.  Maybe the fact that my deck is on the sunny
    side of the house or something, but looking at some of my nailheads I'm
    sure that finish nails would have pulled through.  There are forces at
    work there (like cupping in my case) - I don't think it's inferior wood
    'cause it's Weyerhauser LifeWood (guaranteed forever?) and there's no
    source of moisture other than the air ...
    
    Good luck!

      Can't  say  I've  ever  noticed  a deck floor nailed with anything
      other than nails with heads.  Seems obvious to  me  that  repeated
      swelling  and  shirinking  would  cause  finishing  nails  to pull
      through the deck over a few years.  But I guess some  people  have
      had good luck with this. Personally I'd go with a headed nail with
      a spiral  or  ringed  shank.   Those  heads  aren't  that  big  or
      unsightly.  (Aothough roofing nails WOULD look yuck!)
      
      BTW -- if you go with those clips, which look neat, be sure to ask
      for Declips.  Don't get confused and ask for DEClips.

    RE .3      sinking the heads to prevent rusting
    
    If you sink the heads won't this provide a good place for water
    to collect?  Won't that cause problems down the road?
    
    RE: Declips
    
    I've seen them at several places.  They really vary in price.  I
    figured it would cost mucho $$$ to do a good size deck.  I think
    they were 3/$1 at Coldwells when I saw them.  I have seen them cheaper
    though.  If you ever have to replace a board with those things what
    are you supposed to do?  Pry it out, cut the clips and nail a new
    board in?  (Or hope the next owner has to do it! ;-))  My opinion is
    that it seems like a lot of money for very little benefit.
    
    Phil

    Thanks for all the inputs. There clearly are varied opinions on
    the way to go about this. I guess in the back on my head, I want
    to use the finish nails, so I place more weight on the inputs that
    support this approach. Who knows?? Anyway, there seem to be a few
    successful projects that used finish nails and that's what I was
    looking for.
    
    At this point, I believe I will go that route. It is getting late
    in the season as someone pointed out, and I may wait till springtime
    to actually do this work. (I think I just talked myself into that!)
    
    I want to thank all of the HOME_WORK noters for the prompt and
    informative responses. This is a tremendous way to take advantage
    of a very broad range of experience. It definitely helps us rookies
    to make smarter choices.
    
    Thanks again,
    Jack

>< Note 2842.17 by VINO::GRANSEWICZ "Which way to Tahiti?" >
>
>
>    
>    If you sink the heads won't this provide a good place for water
>    to collect?  Won't that cause problems down the road?
>    
       Yes, there are places where water collects, however there aren't
       places where I see problems. When Doofus (me) put in the deck, he
       was concerned about the chemicals used in the pressure treating
       process, so he used non-treated wood. This turned out to be an
       unfounded concern, but after three winters and four summers of
       weather beating on non-sealed decking, not a single case of 'rot'
       from the sunken nailheads has come up. I intend to rip up what's
       there and put in pressure treated material next year... not
       because of rot, but because I want to. I prefer the radiused
       edges over the square edges that are currently there.


       Chris (Doofus' smarter brother)

    It isn't as though it's a critical issue, anyway.  If finish nails
    do pull through, you can always renail the boards and you're out
    only a little time (well, maybe a lot of time, depending), but
    nothing is going to fall down or be unsafe.

My father-in law has asked me to design and build him a sunroom where his 
current porch is.  The porch is built on a 8X24 (?) foundation so the 
ground work is all set.  What he wants is glass all three sides and maybe
some skylights.  I was thinking of maybe using 8' sliding door units, one
on each end and 3 across the front.  This would allow ventilation, and access 
out to the back lawn.  He would like to use the room year round (solar
heat only) so I thought of putting slate/tile on the floor to absorb heat.
I've read elsewhere in these notes that double insulated glass with the 
reflective coating is better than triple pane glass?  My other concern is 
in the wall construction. Can I buiild the walls with just the sliding door
units?? Or should they be separated a foot or so?  What about the headers,
use one long beam from corner to corner?  

I anyone has built such a project I would like to hear about your experiences,
such as door brands, techniques etc

thanks
gary

    
    Let me start by saying I've never built one and don't have one but....
    
    You should learn a bit about the angles of the sun in different
    seasons, the compass orientation, and the resulting best heights/angles
    for the windows. When designed improperly these rooms have a habit of
    getting overly hot. You may want to have some way to move the extra
    heat to other parts of the house and you'll want to have some sort of
    shade that holds heat in or out depending on the time of year and/or
    day. 
    
    If the "foundation" you have is a poured floor, stone set in morter on
    top will absorb the heat, depending on the thickness of the floor. If
    not, you'll need to add something below, like stone or barrels of water
    to absorb the heat. 
                                    

    You'll need to seperate the front doors to accomadate the headers.
    a 24' span would require a pretty impressive beam (the weight of
    the beam would be a big part of the carry).  You also need some
    space to attach the collars for the sliders.  2x10 headers should
    be sufficient.  Using 3 6' sliders in fron would leave you with
    16" walls at the corners and in between the sliders.
    
    A great deal of heat will be lost through the roof.  Unless you
    can get a fairly steep pitch (8/12) the solar gain on the roof will
    be useless in the winter and too hot in the summer.  That pitch
    over 8 feet means bringing the roof up 6'.  If there is a second
    floor this will cut into a window (if there is one).
    
    To avoid too much summer hear put an 18-24 inch overhang on the
    roof.
    
    double pane vs. coated double pane.  It does up the value somewhat
    but many companies are charging a premimum for low-e glass.  Pay
    back for the additional increase of 1/2 to 1 in R value may prove
    pretty high.  Some windows come standard with Low-e (Patco comes
    to mind).  
    
    As for the floor.  Since the current foundation is not insulated
    its not likely to make much of a heat sink (unless you consider
    geo-thermal rises significant).  The best bet would be to put down
    1 1/2" of foil backed foam sheathing between 2x6 joists. (about
    r-12-15).  Put crushed stone over the foam, add a subfloor and put
    tile over that.  (I'm assuming that there is concrete down now.
    
    As for year round?  I would suspect that unless its 0-15 degrees w
    of south the gain in the winter will be a loss over all.  It should
    be closed off from the rest of the house. 
    
    Note:  Even in the winter the temp in this room (if closed) can
    reach 100 degrees.  Proper venting is needed.  Opening a slider
    a crack to the outside when its 10 degrees out makes for cold drafts.
    
    Yes. I have build things like this.
    
    -Kevin 
    
    

    I added a sunroom to my house a few years back, and have a few
    suggestions:
    -If you are using a raised floor, be sure to not only insulate under
    the floor boards, but also use plastic to create a wind-shield.
     I insulated, but you can still feel a coold breeze in the winter.
    -My sunroom has a shed-type roof with a very shallow pitch.  If this
    is your case, make sure you use some sort of rubberized roof underlay
    to prevent ice/snow buildup.
    -If you plan to carpet the room, use a commercial grade that won't
    get damaged by water when the windows are left open, and one of
    those vicious summer storms comes rolling in.
    -I built the porch with plans to add a deck at a later date, so
    some advanced planning about a deck connection saves a lot of time.
    
    If you have any other questions, give me a call
    Kevin Carpenter DTN:344-2206, Albany, NY  

    I'm beginning construction of a pre-fab sun room on my deck. When
    I went to the buildings dept for my permit (hard to hide a 9 x 12
    bldg when a new development is going to be built behind me), they
    referenced it to my original deck plans to check that the deck could
    support the additional load (the deck could support another house!!!).
    So check into your code requirements first to see if they need more
    than just the room plans. With your foundation there already, it
    should be straight forward.
    
    Eric

    I saw a really clever idea someone used for a porch.  They made
    the walls all the way around out of wooden storm/screen doors. 
    In the Winter, they put the glass in and then when Spring comes
    along they just replace the inset with the screens.
    

"I really want to do this badly..."

Gee, that takes all the pressure off us giving advice ;^)

Check into having someone come out and put on the roof. Some framers moonlight
on weekends for extra money. You get them to come out and be part of your "crew"
They'd have the experience.

    Jim, the idea of aquiring a moon lighting framer sounds good. What
    would be fair pay for a frammer's expertise, keeping in mind he
    would be working with a man that knows little about building? Should
    I contract him to help me with the entire job, or should I be able
    to do everything except the trusses for the roof?
    			M. Gaines

I don't know current prices since I had help with a deck 4 years ago. I talked
with the guy and got a feeling for how he worked and we worked out a fixed price.
This gave him incentive to finish in a timely manner (can you say "every other 
nail" ;^) I don't like heights so I'd get someone to do a roof for me. Like the
mason discussion elsewhere, you will get a better rate during their slow time 
and they will be more open to small jobs at these times.

Best bet is to drive around past construction sites and then when you see work
you like the looks of, stop by with some coffees and talk to the crew. If they 
can't talk, they may ask for a phone number for a "friend" to give you a 
call/quote. Besides, you like talking over coffee, right?

    I certainly don't want to disagree with good advice, but.....
    
    This past summer, I built a 16' gazebo with a double pagoda roof
    on it.  It came out just fine.
    
    I think the main reason it did was because I TOOK MY TIME.  That
    is the drawback.  It took me tons of time, far more than someone
    who knows what they are doing would take.  
    
    What I got out of it was some great knowledge, and some very important
    confidence for future jobs.  Once I had read about it, the job went
    fairly well.
    
    I think that the advice in .2 is terrific, and extremely sensible,
    but it all depends on what YOU want to get out of the project.
    
    Now that I have tossed in my .02 worth, I'll sign off.
    
    Rgds,
    
    Andy

    
    	Thanks all for the advice. I'll take it to heart, wish me luck!
    
    				M. Gaines

    I was in your shoes, a couple of years back...here's what I did.
    
    I hired a contractor to do the floor, walls, and roof framing with
    my labor thrown in.  I took it from there, and got loads of
    satisfaction in finishing this project with knotty pine interior,
    carpet, windows, electrical, phone, etc.  
    
    When this was built in 1986, I paid $10/hr for a junior contractor
    who wanted to start his own business, and he put in about 200 hours
    doing the framing.  Check the local PennySaver type rags to find
    these contractors.
    
    Good Luck!
    

There's TONS of stuff already in this file about this sort of thing.  There are 
a lot of people out there who aren't answering your questions here because they 
have already answered them elsewhere in this file, and there are others who
aren't answering because they don't want to tackle all of your questions at
once. 

But if you want to use it as such, this file can be just like an airport 
control tower "Talking down" an inexperienced pilot.  Print out note 1111.1 and 
see what directories you're interested in.  DECKS&PORCHES certainly, ADDITIONS,
ARCHITECTURE&DESIGN, carpentry*, foundation, dealing with contractors,
permits, etc etc.  Print out those directories, and then look for notes that
fit.  I know, for example, that there's at least one note in
ARCHITECTURE&DESIGN that specifically addresses matching rooflines.  Print out
those notes, and if your questions aren't answered specifically, post a reply
to that note asking for clarification.  People tend to respond better to a
specific request than to a HELP ME WITH EVERYTHING! request. 

And keep coming back with question once you get started.  If you get stuck 
somewhere, ask.  You can do it!  

Paul

    Well beg my pardon Paul! I appreciate the nice info... but take
    it easy guy, before you have a cardiac arrest. I guess I'm no notes
    expert either, kind of trying to learn my way around. Sorry if my
    note requesting help/information put you in a tizzzzy, I'll try
    to be more sensitive, just for you...
    
    
    				M. Gaines

Ok, I'll bite. :^)  I beg your pardon.

Complete miscommunication is going on here.  My note was intended merely to
help you utilize this file to its potential, and to perhaps give a little
explanation of why you weren't getting as much response as you might.  I was in
nothing resembling a tizzy, and certainly far from cardiac arrest. 

Please, please, don't get any MORE sensitive.  :^)

All in good fun...

Paul

>    Well beg my pardon Paul! I appreciate the nice info... but take
>    it easy guy, before you have a cardiac arrest. I guess I'm no notes
>    expert either, kind of trying to learn my way around. Sorry if my

Paul's previous note on how to find information in this conference is
the perfect primer for becoming a "notes expert" and for "learning
your way around". Don't take his suggestions the wrong way, Paul is
one of the nicest, helpful and REASONABLE moderators around and so is
this conference as well as his previous reply.

I also whole-heartly agree with his comment about the range of a
question. Specific questions about a project, "Should I use a GFI
circuit breaker or a GFI outlet?" tend to generate alot of lively
discussion. Questions that ask for info on a whole topic "How do I
build a porch?" tend to die, because it's too broad, many of the
details and aspects have probably already been asked and answered
here. 

Charly

    me too
    

     
    More tales and tribulations of moving into a "new" house.
    
    Well I think I have a handle on how to take care of the hardwood
    floors. Next question.
    
    The deck of this house is very warn and weather beaten. The wood
    is very dried out looking as is the wooden slabs on the fence
    that is around the back yard. Is there some way that we can
    "stain" this or make it look better.
    
    I was asking my husband this last night and he said he didn't think
    so especially with the fence but I still think there must be some
    kind of clear "varnish" or something that we can do to make it look
    better. I guess it looks real rustic but I don't really care
    for it. 
    
    Hope someone knows about decks and fences.
    or can at least point me in the direction of a note that discusses
    this. I searched but couldn't find anything.
    
    
    
    thanks again...Rothel
    

    
    I'd like to have a screen (or enclosed) porch, but don't want to
    drastically change the appearance of the front of my house. My current
    porch is an open one across the front of the house, with columns,
    railings, turned ballusters.  It measures 26' x 6'.
                   
    This summer I'm planning to replace the porch decking, joists, and
    probably footings. They're in rough shape. Obviously this would be the
    best time to do any enclosing. 
                                               
    I've been looking at other houses for ideas as to how I can convert the
    porch. Some of the screened porches I like have the screen inside the
    railings/columns. But ideally I'd like to enclose it for 3-season use.
    I haven't seen any enclosed porches that would look nice on an old
    house.                                    
                                              
    What I'd like to avoid is just having a continuous row of storm
    windows. But then, I want as much glass as possible -- I want it
    to feel like a porch.  How can I get that open, airy look without
    being too modern?                    
                                              
    I have a feeling that the below-window area of the enclosure would
    likely be clapboarded to match the house.  It's the window treatment
    that I can't decide on. 
    
    Any ideas for enclosing a porch, but still retaining an old look?
                            
    Joe
    
        

Many old houses had screen panels that were installed on the porch in the
summertime, and wood panels that were used to enclose it during the
winter. (The wood panels had windows, but they were a small part of the
total panel size.)  Mine still has the screens, and we have one wood panel
that is intended as a wind/snow break for the north side in the winter.

The panels were fairly complete, including doors where appropriate, and often
the screen panels had decorative scroll work.  They're big, and a hassle to
move, but they're in tune with the design of the house.  As you noted, they
are designed to fit inside the railings and posts. Often they are painted
a not TOO contrasting color. Mine are dark green on a white house -- a 
fairly classic combination.

If I were approaching your project, I think I'd try to work from the
screen panel design including either glass or plexiglass in the frames.  
Whole frames or maybe just sections of frame could be made removeable to
allow putting screens in place.  I would be tempted to fix the major panels
in place just because they would be exceedingly heavy, though probably not
as heavy as the wooden winter panels are.  It depends on how much muscle
you have around the house, I guess.

Anyway, I would try to duplicate the look of the panels without neccessarily
duplicating the funtion. 
					>>>==>PStJTT

    
      Irregardless of how weatherbeaten the wood looks, you can stain
    it if it's sound and dry. It may not look like new, but it's appearance
    and life will be much better than if you did nothing. 
    
    					Kenny

    My circa-1900 Victorian house in Maynard has a porch similar to what .0
    describes - square columns, a permanent solid wall rising about 2'
    above the floor, and wood-framed removable screens above that.
    
    The screen frames rest on the low wall, held in place by a fairly
    rickety system of hooks and eyes and other similarly lightweight
    hardware.  Each frames is about 4' wide, and it takes two or three of
    them to fill most of the inter-column openings.  The columns have a
    good deal of trim on them, requiring the adjacent frames to be notched
    in strange ways.
    
    .0's phrase "light and airy" reminded me that the screen material
    itself is black.  The mood on the porch is certainly airy, but anything
    but light - downright dim.  I imagine that modern metallic-colored
    screening would brighten things up, but it probably wouldn't look
    right.  Something to consider.
    
    I have every reason to believe that the above is the original porch
    treatment for the house.  I can certainly imagine solid panels (as
    described in .1) being used in the winter, but I haven't found any
    lying around.
    
    And the wintertime configuration would have to be something like wood
    panels; the hooks and eyes just wouldn't support the weight of glass in
    a nor'easter.
    
    My porch proves that it's possible to have a usable, historically
    accurate screened front porch, especially if you can solve (or live
    with) the darkness problem mentioned above.
    
    Another historical front porch treatment I admire consists of a
    fully-glassed-in wall, old style, using many small lites and wood
    muntins (or mullions, or whatever the right name is).  This approach
    looks great on many styles of old houses.  Must be a pain to maintain
    all that window putty, though, and this method doesn't readily lend
    itself to serious ventilation, so the enclosed space might resemble a
    conservatory more than a porch.  I haven't lived with one of these;
    maybe someone who has can let us know about the ventilation question.
    
    You're welcome to visit my porch to get ideas.  There are several
    examples of old glassed-in porches in the neighborhood too.

    
    How about taking a modern approach, and making it look more
    traditional?  For instance:
    
    		Use multiple sets of sliding glass doors and then
    		attach trim in a grid over the glass to make the doors 
    		appear as though they are actually made of numerous small 
    		glass panels.
    
    		Or use multiple sets of French Doors.
    
    Too bad I didn't see this note earlier, I could have told you that
    Channel 11 out of NH (PBS) ran a "HomeTime" mini-marathon yesterday... 
    1.5 hours of "How to build a three season porch" from start to finish!  
                         
    
    							* MAC *

I am planning to build a farmers porch on the front of my house and am trying
to get quotes for the project. My house is a 38' colonail and the porch depth
will be from 6 - 8' deep. I wanted to know if anyone in the notes file has
had this done and what it cost them. (break down of labor + materails would
be helpful)

Also has anyone done this job themselves? If so do you still have a set of plans
or where can I find the plans for a farmers porch? How many semi-novice
man-hours are involved? I own a table saw, power mitre saw, drill, circular saw,
hammers etc. are there any non standard tools necessary? # of ladders needed
etc.
I'm contemplating contracting the whole job out or contract out the structural
frame work and finish the rest myself or just do the whole shooting-match
myself.

thanks
/Jay Sweeney

  Time to revive another old note!!

  The L-shaped porch on our 93 year old Victorian has problems.  I removed
the material on the porch facade for starters (some type of particle board
with a "brick look" showing, and underneath was a layer of boards and below
that was what I think is the original lattice work.  All this was great for
ventilation!)

  Much of the old 6 x 6 carrying beam on the edge of the porch is rotted or
has been attacked by carpenter ants at some time in the past few decades.
This must be replaced.  The porch steps must also be replaced.

  The 7 old cast iron supports  (below the columns) there now, I believe they
are original.  Only 5 of them are providing support, since the other 2 have
sunk into the ground.

  I need to replace the joists, flooring, steps, facade and maybe the railings.
The wooden columns have weathered the many years of neglect well.  The roof 
has a leak in it, and needs to be re-shingled.  I have to pour new footings 
with sonotubes.

  [To show you the mentality of the previous owner, he had the main house 
re-roofed about 5 years ago, but didn't have the porch re-roofed at the same 
time!  I understand he was a real miser]

  The first thing that I want to do is to jack up the porch roof so that it is
level all around, and temporarily support it somehow, possibly with some long
2 x 4's.  I would do this is every location where there is currently a wooden
column.

         WHAT IS THE BEST METHOD OF DOING THIS???

  After the porch roof is securely supported, I will proceed to demolish the
existing lower porch structure.  Then rebuild it.  I figure this will be 
an all summer job, unless I get some professional help.

  The part I wouldn't mind getting help in is building new concrete footings
and building the new joist/framing.   The flooring, facade, steps and railings
I would have no problem doing.

   But, I need some immediate help is jacking the roof up and supporting it
so I can proceed.

   Thanks for any inputs.

  Steve

    Cut a hole in the existing flooring.  Build a A frame with one leg
    through the hole in the flooring reaching to the ground and the other
    leg outside the porch.  Put an A-frame each place you want to hold up
    the roof.  If you decrease the spread between the legs of the A-frame,
    you will raise the roof, increase and you will lower the roof.  This
    will allow you to adjust the roof line.  Once you deciede the correct
    spread, nail a board from one leg to the other to keep the spread
    constant.  You can demolish the existing porch, rebuild the floor
    joists and then install a permanent support which rests on the joists.
    Remove the A-frame and install the flooring. 

    
    RE: .8
    
    I've seen many old porch roofs supported with dimensional lumber
    2"x6"(?) staked into the ground.  Use more of them than there are
    columns though.
    
    I would think the joists and footings would be the same as an attached
    deck.  I'd double up the support under the columns though.
    
    Sounds like a fun summer project!
    

    
    
    		I want to use 6 X 6 pt beams to support my 14 X 26'
    	deck.  Basically the layout is
    
    		26' -> --------------------------------------------
    
    			   |_|		  |_|                 |_|
                     ^
                     |
                    14'
                     |
                     V
    			   |_|            |_|		      |_|
    
    			--------------------------------------------
    		             
                I will have about a 2' overhang.  The 6 X 6 posts are the
    	|_| figures with a sandwich of 3 - 2 x 6's horizontally laying
    	on top.  Then in the 14' direction 2 x 8's to support the deck.
    	My question is about attaching the 6 x 6 beams to the 8" cement
        piers.  Do they make TECO connectors to handle this?  I think
    	I have seen them for 4 x 4's but am unsure about 6 x 6's.  If
    	not, any ideas?
    
    		Gordon Ripley
    

    The do make teco's for 6 x6's, but they are hard to locate. I needed
    some and finally found them at Chagnon's in Nashua.
    
    Eric

    you might want to think about the idea of the 2' overhang.  I was
    planning a similar deck last year and the feedback I received was 
    a 2' overhang will, over time, slope downward a bit. So I cut the
    overhang to 12" 
    
    TH 
    
    

    My current deck is designed as follows:            8'
                                              xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
                                              x                 x
                                   8'         x                 x
                            xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx                 x
                      13'2" x-----------------------------------x  15'9"
                            x                    |              x
                            x                  12'6"            x
                            x                    |              x
             xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
                                                  
    The main beam is 12'6" out from the house. Though the overhang is
    8" on the left, it is 3'3" on the right. When I had the plans checked
    by the building's dept., they had no problem with the overhang.
    I don't remember the exact formula, but a 2' overhang should cause
    no problem.
    
    Eric

    I don't think the overhang is a town approval problem -- structurally
    it should be fine.  The advice I got (as I recall from the town
    engineer) was 2'+ overhangs can sometimes droop over time, so you could
    wind up with a section of your deck that is no longer level.  
    
    For the amount of work that goes into a deck, it seemed like a reasonable
    point to me -- moving the footings out 12" wasn't a big deal and it did
    not visual impact on the deck.  
    

  Need a quick recommendation of Porch Supports!

  I've hired a carpenter to rebuild my porch decking.  I was expecting them
to dig 4' holes and put in a sonotubes and fill them with concrete and use
the special hardware used for decks to attach the posts to the supports.

  Instead, they've dug holes about 3' deep, (no sonotube) and filled the hole
with concrete.  The 4 x 4 PT post will be plopped into the wet concrete,
allowed to dry and thats it!

  They're saying that they've done this for years and never had a problem.

  I think its a shortcut, and I want the job done right!

  What gives?  Is this guy giving me a line?  or will this method work just 
as well?

  Thanks!!!!!!!!!

  Steve  

    I think you're right -- they're taking a shortcut.  I had a similar
    situation last year -- the contractors wanted to put the deck on 2'
    footings.  Fortunately I went to the trouble of taking out a
    building permit and had a good excuse to demand a little more --
    Framingham requires 6' footings.  I'd recommend going the 6' with
    sonotubes route for a couple reasons: 
    
    First, since building a new deck
    is a lot easier than fixing one that is falling apart, you probably
    don't want to have to rebuild anything below the decking material.
    The extra cement and time to dig 6' holes is minimal compared to fixing
    it later.
      
    Secondly, if you (or perhaps the next guy who owns your house) ever
    decides to put a roof on the deck, or enclose it, etc. there will be a
    reasonable foundation on which to do so. Anything less than 6' footings
    here in New England makes you a good candidate for future discussion in
    the the "why did theyever do that" note. 
    
     

    I'd think that 6' is a little excessive. 4' is the requirement in the
    Acton area and most others I know of. Of course, a building inspector
    can require more if you don't hit something solid by that point.
    Also, in marshy areas they may be used to requiring more and may
    demand it up front. 

    The tubes are probably not a requirement, although they are a good
    idea. The brackets are also probably not a requirement, but again are
    a good idea. I like to have the footing extend slightly above
    the ground so that the foot of the post doesn't get doused by
    gound level water flow. Just a personal preference.
     
    It sounds like you may have one of those "no you don't need a permit"
    type of contractors. I'd pull one and have the inspector
    involved to make sure it's done right.  

    This has also been entered in the Woodworking notes file.  I am hoping
    that between here and there I will be able to get some good ideas.
    
    I am in the process of making a few flower boxes for my house and
    my girlfriend's apartment.  The problem I have is that I want to
    hang them from the railing of the porch.  I just haven't been able
    to come up with a good way of doing this.  I have an old colonial
    with a nice porch.  The stiles of the railing are not straight but
    are a bit fancy with some curves.  I don't really want to try and
    nail the box on top of the railing, because the railing is not a
    flat board.  Rather, it is also somewhat designed.
    
    I have thought of trying to make some kind of bracket to attach
    to the back and hang that over the railing.  I have seen the metal
    brackets that lumber yards sell for hanging tools, etc.  I just
    hate to do the work for a nice flower box and then put this ugly
    bracket on.
    
    The boxes are white and my girlfriend is going to do some stenciling
    on them.
    
    Any ideas would be most helpful.
    
    I have thought of some kind of strap which would attach to the flower
    box, wrap around the railing and attach to the bottom of the flower
    box.  The strap would be leather.  I just don't know how sturdy
    this would be (or strong), since the box would be full of soil and
    plants.
    
    Ed..
    

    I agree with the last couple.  6' is a little excessive.  I believe
    the code in Nashua, NH is 42".
    
    What happens when the post is inserted into the concrete is that
    the wood shrinks and there is a small space between the concrete
    and the wood.  When it rains, water is trapped and even PT posts
    will rot.  They may take a little longer than non-PT but they'll
    not last the 30 years they're rated for.
    
    Sonotubes is good - not necessary.  Cement should come above ground
    so that water runs off.  Brackets are best but not necessary - they
    help keep the post out on any water.
    
    Don't let them put the post into the concrete.  That's the worst
    way to do it!  They haven't had a problem with the technique cause
    they are long gone by the time you have a problem.  Problem here
    is defined to be a post rotting out in 1-2 years for non-pt as opposed
    to 5-8 or in 5-10 years as opposed to 30-40 for PT.  As you may
    surmise, I also recommend PT lumber throughout.  You'll be sorry
    if you don't - gauranteed.
    
    If they insist on they're being right - that putting the post in
    the concrete is not a problem,  I'd get myself another contractor.

    
    There are probably a hundred different ways that will work.  Sure
    their way will work.  It probably won't last as long as your method
    since the posts are in contact with the cement (and water on top).
    Remember, this guy is working FOR YOU.  You're footing the bill
    so specify how YOU want it done.  Get another contractor if you
    don't feel comfortable with this guy.
    
    my $.02
    

    Has anyone tied their ledger board directly to the concrete foundation
    walls rather that the sill plate?. I'm thinking about putting up
    a 32x10 deck off my breezeway and garage. In order to accomodate
    my back garage door and breezeway slider the ledger boards would
    have to be lagged into the concrete. From a shear load standpoint
    I don't see a problem, what i'm not sure of is laterial movement
    and the potential of it pulling away from the cement wall. I 
    would intend on using 5/8 lags with proper lead shield and of
    course cement piers out 8-9 feet from the ledger board. Any idea
    on lag spacing (intend on 16"o/c and alot of bits!!) or has anyone
    done this or checked into it and had problems?. Any experiance
    would be appreciated and of course the B.I. has the last word.
    Thanks,
    Ray
    

         RE: .96 and priors

         You have two considerations here:

         Hole depth: make darn sure that you get down below the
         frostline.  Just how deep this is depends on your location,
         but an inspection of the site by someone who knows the area
         will make for a deck that doesn't heave as a result of frost.

         Method of attaching supports to cement: There are many
         reasons against, and none that I can think of for (except
         from your builder's point of view) sinking the supports into
         the cement.  Again, no matter how nicely you solve this
         problem, you'll have other problems if the hole isn't deep
         enough.

         Personally, I used lally columns which are REAL permanent and
         not subject to rot or bugs or even being hammered by an
         occasional car bumper, which I then boxed with PT
         dimensional.

         Pete

re: .98

You may want to consider a free standing deck... less potential for damaging
your house foundation.

My $.02

Bob

    Thought about that too...alot more holes to dig and i'm sure alot
    more large New England rocks to hit/remove/curse. I'm not worried
    about the garage foundation, its poured 6 or 8 inch thick cement.
    

    
     >hit/remove/curse
      I have that function programmed on my keyboard. 
    
    What about using a rotary hammer and drilling through, then using
    threaded rod to attach ? It would avoid the cement anchor problem. I
    think in general your idea is good and will actually avoid some of the
    problems associated with traditional wood to wood attachment. 
    
    While were on the subject, what are the recommendations on
    diameter for footings ?  I plan to add some steps to an attached
    deck and also replace a poorly built side entry stair ( a definite
    "why did they ever" candidate). Are 6" footings sufficient ?   

    
    
    		I had a experience just the other day with the local
    	lumber yard that bears on this.  I called to get prices on
    	sono tubes and after getting me to tell him what I was doing
    	(building a deck) he suggested that I dig the hole 4-5' deep,
    	put some cement in it or a cement block, place the pt post in
    	this cement then fill the hole normally.  His comment was that
    	the PT is rated for 40 years so why worry.  He has one point,
    	I expect to only be here another 10 years or so.  Also, it
    	was my understanding that rotting occurs only at the soil level.
    	Maybe this is with some other material?  Anyway, I have been
    	seriously considering the following.  Taking a 8" sono tube,
    	cutting it into 1 foot pieces, placing them in the hols about
    	4 1/2 feet down, driving a few nails into the end of the PT
    	pier, placing the pier into the 1 foot sono tube, filling it
    	with cement, letting it dry and then back filling the hole
    	with the dirt that came out of it originally.  I suspect that
    	this would last as long as I am there and wouldn't show any
    	rot even in 10 years!  Well, now I suspect that a few people
    	might have sonmething to say about that!  8^)  Gordon Ripley
    

Well, Gordon... you just about summed up my installation.

Only difference is, I didn't anchor the posts to the footers at all.
I dug down 48" with a hand auger.  Since I live in Clay, NY, I don't
need sono tubes!  8^)   I poured in 3 bags of ready mix concrete into
each hole, and when they had set, I put the PT 4x4 on top of the footer
and backfilled the hole.

You are correct when you say that rot will usually only occur at the 
surface.  There is a nice little microclimate there that just begs wood
to rot!   But with PT lumber, I wouldn't be all that concerned about
it.  (Although I do slap a little Thompson's wood seal on the posts 
once in a while just for luck!)   Bear in mind when using PT lumber that
every place you make a cut is now open to rot.   Should seal the ends
with TWS or equiv.

Bob

    RE -.2 Yes I thought about drilling through too, but this is an
    attached garage/breezeway so I'd be drilling through, into dirt.
    I don't know if they make rust resistant molly (butterfly) bolts
    but those (if they make them) with threaded rod would be an option.
    

re .103:
    
    The benefit of a full length of Sonotube, as I understand it, is
    that you get a nice, smooth casting for the concrete. A rough casting
    (dig and pour) provides lots of ledges on which frost can exert an
    upward thrust. A smooth casting that extends below the frost line
    provides no working surface for frost.

    re .103
    
    What is this "It will rot out shortly after I leave.  Therefore
    it's not MY problem."
    
    I think that's the way my car manufacturer thinks so that I have
    to replace it just before it's paid for.  What's wrong with building
    something that lasts and lasts ??  Isn't that what a lot of us complain
    about in other's behavior.
    
    I don't mean to pick on you particularly, it seems to be fast becoming
    the american way.  What the hell ever happened to quality ??

I beleive the sonotubes also have a very slight taper to them, so there is
an "up" and "down" end.  the taper is supposed to help frost heave around 
the tube.

gary

    There seems to be some misinformation on PT lumber earlier in this
    note.
    
    1) I don't believe there is any serious problem with burying it
    in concrete.  The 30-40 years it's supposed to last assumes it will
    be wet (it will last longer if not wet, though).
    
    2) I've never heard that cut surfaces in PT lumber are more prone
    to rot.  That's why it's PT to begin with.

    Not to throw another variation into this discussion, but I have
    an interesting deck support problem.
    
    I have a very well built place by a competent builder, but he seems
    to have been stumped by this one.  In trying to go down 4' for a
    deck support he hit ledge at about 2'. So he just sat the end of
    the 4x6 PT post on the ledge and filled it in.  
    
    After two winters the post is a good 6" pushed out of the ground.
    (Luckily it's a corner of the deck so things haven't been wrecked
    too badly).  My guess is that the post is heaving with the frost
    and then the melting ground water runs into the gap - eventually
    collapsing enough dirt into it so the post never goes back down.
    (It does most of its continual march toward the sky in early spring).
    
    I was thinking of just sawing 6" of the top of the post (every two
    years - hmm in seven years the post will be completely on the surface
    :-). 

    Anybody got a post facto fix for this?   

    Are you sure you're not on a fault line ? Perhaps the ledge is moving !
    (8-0 !
    
    How about this - 
    		unearth the ledge/post
    		modifying one of those post to concrete anchors
    		bolt the anchor to the ledge (drill first)
    		attach the post to the anchor  
		pray you're not really on a fault line !     
                                                

    
    
    		In response to the issue of 'quality' and 'rotting out
    	just after I leave' I *am* concerned about quality but have
    	no way of determining just how the 'quality' of the end product
    	will be affected by my decision to bury the post.  Can anyone
    	say how long a 40 year PT post will last under this method?
    	The stuff hasn't been in use long enough for anyone to say with
    	any certainty.  so, it becomes a matter (for me anyway) of
    	economics.  What do I think I will lose in life exepctancy vs
    	paying more and expending more effort in using a full length
    	sono tube.  I may have said - 'I don't care 'cause I'll only
    	be here another 10 years'.  I didn't mean to imply by that that
    	I thought the post was only going to last 11 years!  I feel
    	that the post should last 25 - 30 years with this approach but
    	I can't prove it.  If it does last that long I will feel that
    	the level of quality is acceptable for the installation application
    	involved and won't feel like I have somehow 'cheated' or
    	short changed the next owner of the house.  I do feel that
    	your concerns are important, however, and thank you for your
    	comments.
    
    	8^)...	Gordon Ripley...
    

    Here's a couple
    
    Use screws thru the back side of the flower box into the railing.
    This method will put holes in the railing and encourage the back
    of the box to rot.
    
    Make a foot for you box which matches the shape of the top of the
    railing.  
    
    I agree the leather sounds like a short term solution.  Metal pipe
    strap would be more durable but may not meet your beauty requirements.
    Painting the strap to meet the rail and box colors would hide it
    from most viewers eyes.
    
    You have already vetoed a Z shaped metal bracket so I won't suggest
    that you do that (or paint it so it does not show up).

    I recently removed 5 posts used in a deck that were simply poured
    into the concrete footing.(this was part of a move/enlarge project)
    All of the posts were in perfect condition showing zero sign of
    rot. I believe this is partly due to the dry climate here in colorado.
    The posts were 4x4 redwood and had not been treated in any fashion
    when they were installed 14 years ago. 
    
    -j

    While putting down some new decking, I came up with a neat trick
    for getting the inevitable crooked boards to straighten out.  As
    mentioned in previous notes, nailing the ends, and then using wedges
    is a good technique, but difficult if you're working alone.  
    
    Say you have a board that is quite crowned so that the ends butt
    up to the previous board, but the middle is 3/4" away.  Clamp a
    block of wood to the joist about 6" in front of the board to be
    nailed.  Take a handscrew clamp (the type with the wooden jaws)
    and adjust it to just fit between the clamped block and the deck
    board.  Then, by turning one of the clamp screws, it will force
    the jaws apart, and push the board up against the previous one.
    
    You can then nail (or screw it) in place at your leisure.  BTW,
    I was using 5/4 x 6" decking, which is very difficult to bend without
    some significant mechanical advantage.  The clamp had no trouble
    providing that mechanical advantage.
    
    Bob

    I have looked through the directory and could not find a response
    that answered my questions. Mr. Moderator, delete this note if it
    is redundant.
    
    I want to take some action to preserve/enhance the appearance of
    my PT deck. I want to paint the railings and would like to know
    what process and paint type I should use to do this. ie prime first
    and then paint one coat, two coats etc.
    
    I would also like to do something to keep the decking from turning
    that aged grey color. I like the color of it now. The green color
    has pretty much gone and the wood looks new. How can I keep it that
    way without getting into the rut of having to re-do it every couple
    of years because the stain or sealer has worn off and it looks gross?
    
    I am open to staining the deck if I don't get caught in the
    maintainence trap.
    
    Any advice?
    
    Jack

This note has been temporarily write-locked pending approval of the author.

To the author:  This subject is already under discussion in this file, under the
topics listed in the title.  Please look at these notes; you may find that your
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We do, however, welcome new notes if they explore a specific aspect of a 
problem that may be under general discussion.  And this moderator has been 
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continue the discussion here, send me mail.

Paul [Moderator]

I'd like to build a large deck with steps around the perimeter.  

The local building code, however, dictates that, if the deck is 24" above the
ground, the maximum width of a stairway is limited to 88".  The intention being
that a handrail should be within a reasonable distance when using the stairs.

My deck will be about 35" above the ground at the highest spot. I'd really like
to avoid using handrails, since they tend to create a boundary between the
house and the yard.  One possible way around the code is to create several
"descending levels" in place of steps.  Can anyone tell me how wide a "step"
has to be to be considered another "level"?  In other words, what is the
minimum width of a level?

How about a few _descending_ handrails?  Every 60" - 70" or so (within
the 88" limit) add a handrail to be held onto going down the steps.
Might need only three or four.

How about three or four sets of wide steps?  This would mean just a
bit of perimeter handrails.

Your best bet is to go talk to the building inspector on this one.  Tell him 
what you want to do, and see what HE says.  Unfortunately, his perspective is 
the only one that counts.

Paul

I have a related question on sagging structures. My deck has a roof over it that
extends out from the kitchen.

My problem is that the roof is sagging at one end, but the deck is perfectly 
level. This is the part that I'm confused on. The post that holds up that corner
of the roof that is sagging is the same post that support that end of the deck.

Last week-end I just assumed that the footing has settled and the whole thing 
needed to be jacked up. When I put the level to the deck it was right on. So
the post and footing did not sink at all. Somehow the roof seems to be sinking
on the support. The drawing below does not do justice to the problem. The roof
is raised at the mid point of the deck and lowered at the corner. That is, it 
slopes down to the right from the mid-point.

Any ideas on the cause and what are the possible cures?



					|
_______________________-----------------|-<--- roof, sagging
|   ^			^	     ^	|
|   |			|	     |	|
|   |			|	     |	| <- post
|   | 			|	     |	|
|  12'		     12' 1"	   11'11"
|   |			|	     |	|
|   |			|	     |	|
|   |			|	     |	|
|---------------------------------------|- <-- deck, level
|					|

    Well this is a very long note with many different opinions of
    support methods. Ive been very busy with my 12 year old new house
    fixing things that have gone wrong cosmeticly or bad due to rot.
    One bad was the non PT deck. It was made in the fashion of digging
    a hole, pouring the concrete, and sinking in the 4x4.
    I chain sawed the deck down this early spring, it was really a mess,
    rotted to the core. the 4x4 that were in the ground could be broken
    off by hand they were so rotted! 
    I have seen many plans for decks now and not one that I have seen
    has suggested using this sink the 4x4 into the concrete method.
    They show using the "teco" (sp) type supports on top of a ABOVE
    ground concrete structure (sonotube).
    The concept is very simple when you think about it. PT wood will
    rot, and it will fad over time and start to look drab. If you can
    reach all parts of the structure with stain or sealer of some type
    than your deck will last 50 liftimes! I would not take the chance
    of this happening to my new deck, I plan to be at my house for a
    while and do not want to dig up concrete etc. to fix rot that with
    little more effort and common sense could have been avoided.
    Im not trying to insult anyones opinion on this, just my experience
    with what happend to the deck that was left to me, and be added
    to the "Why did they ever do that note".               
    
    
    jim

    There are a couple of things to check. Is there any signs of water
    damage? How is the roof supported? are there 4x4's at the corners?
    If so a leak could rot out the top of the 4x4 and cause the top
    plate to drop. Could the deck have been built pitched to 1 side,
    and when you measured it was level, but was it when it was put in?
    	Did anyoune ever replace a post? I have seen this happen several
    times, someone replaces a post and they adjust the post measurement
    to the circumstances, rather than use the correct length post and
    have to lift the roof back up, you just toss in a piece and forget
    about the roof.                                         
    
    							Chris
    
    
    							

Sorry, Jim... I disagree.   There's nothing wrong with building your deck
that way, if it makes you sleep better, but please don't insist that PT
lumber will rot out any time soon.   Too much salt in the wood...its nicely
preserved!

You current problem with the deck are directly due to the non-PT lumber used.

BTW, most rot will occur at the ground level... not above, and not below...
standing water excepted.

If you are going to use above ground supports, be sure that there is no flat 
top surfaces to hold water.

Bob

    RE .3
    
    Better late than never.
    
    Leaving no space between your decking might be fine if your decking
    wood is still wet. If you put it on when its dry, and do not seal
    against water than your wood will have no place to expand to when
    it gets wet, or rains. Result could be damage to wood...cracking, 
    splits, decking lifting etc.
    The suggestions from other notes on this topic are for some sort
    of space between the decking.
    I'll also second the mention of the "u" shape being down, also
    described as the bark side of the wood face up.

    
    When I built my deck on my last house it was suggested I use a 6d
    nail as a gap for the 5/4" decking. I did this and by the end of the
    summer I could put my finger between some of the gaps ! My brother-
    in-law recently asked me the same question as he is currently
    building a deck, I said NO GAP! He put the 5/4" decking down about
    2 weeks ago real tight, I was there this weekend and already you
    could put a 12d nail in some spots ! Two thoughts....
    
    1) use 2X6's for decking as they will shrink less and I feel make a
       better floor.
    
    2) whatever you use for decking, lay it out on your joists for a
       week or so (a couple days in the sun is great) and let it work
       itself, then you MIGHT be safe leaving a 4d nail gap.
    
    ace
    

    Having built 4 decks over the years (3 with 2 x 6 and the most recent
    with 5/4 x 6), I have found no problem with using the 5/4, and the
    price is usually less that 2 x 6. Also the rounded edges works out
    better.
    
    Eric

    Does anyone know how to remove candle wax from wood ? Wax from a
    citronella (sp?) candle was spilled on my deck. I am going to etch
    the deck and `Rain Coat' it with the Wolman products and am concerned
    that the wax will not be removed and will leave a stain.
    

IMHO, there is no way anyone can say "Thou shalt ALWAYS leave a gap" or
"Thou shalt NEVER leave a gap"...

In the final analysis, it depends on the moisture content of your wood.

PT lumber is rarely very dry, at least around here... Your mileage may 
vary...  8^)

Bob

    Put a towel over the wax and then iron the towel....
    
    Edd

    How do you get wax out of a towel?  :')

Put it on a piece of wood and iron the wood, natch!   8^)

    Have the towel dry cleaned.  Make sure you do not leave the iron the
    towel to long.  The object is to heat the wax to make it soft. The
    towel absorbs the wax.  If you overheat the wax, the wax will not be
    absorbed by the towel but the instead the deck will absorb the wax.
    Move the towel from time to time to a clean wax free portion so it can
    absorb all the wax. 

   Re: < Note 3298.2 by IAMOK::DELUCO >

   > How do you get wax out of a towel?  :')

     Use hand-washing type brown _PAPER_ towel, instead, and throw it away!

Brian

    
    to finish up, try using either paint thinner or coleman lantern fuel
    ( naptha) to dissolve what is left of the wax. Most candle wax is
    petroleum based( i.e:parrafin) and the petroleum solvent swill dissolve
    it. Mineral spirits ( apint thinner) or naptha are pretty good solvents
    soak the wood- use paper towel to mop up redidue, repeat until wax is
    soaked up. Do this after the hot iron/towel trick
    
    

    Try using ICE.  We had the same type of problem once on a table.
     We just put the ice on the wax and let it set for a minute or so
    and then the wax will come right up.

    Re: .0
    
    Exact same scenario happened to me as I was building my brand new
    deck.  I was able to remove the citronella wax by very carefully
    (so as not to gouge the wood) scraping and lifting with a single
    edge razor blade.  Light sanding should remove what ever wax 
    was absorbed by the wood.
    
    Good luck.

this sounds like the perfect note for this.

i am thinking of adding a screened porch to my parents house on the cape.  
i have a fair idea of what is needed.  my question is how to find 
requirements in the code (it reads like a swahili cookbook), then 
completely disregarding that, how should i really do it.

the basic plan is this.  10-12 feet out, 12-14 feet wide.  attached to
house, 2-3 feet off the ground, roof tied in to existing roof.  concrete
tubes for footings. aluminum framed screens to be removable,  could be
replaced by glass in fall/winter. 

some questions.  
  what is min pitch required for the roof?  the existing eve isn't that 
high so going out 10-12 feet could get low.
  how many feet?  just two at the corners?  three on outer edge?  five, 
three on a side?
  should the screens go to the floor?  maybe std size slider screens?

any input appreciated,
craig

	Re: .7

>  what is min pitch required for the roof?  the existing eve isn't that
>high so going out 10-12 feet could get low.

	I don't know the code, so I won't suggest a pitch.  But if you're
concerned that the roof will get low, the porch might not be too useful.  (If
the roof is low, that would tend to give it a "closed in" feeling and not be
inviting for people to use it.)  Rather than (presumably) a one-piece flat
(but pitched) roof, have you considered a gable-style roof on it?  It would
admittedly be harder and more costly to make, but might make for a much nicer
end result.  Pictorally, from a front view here is what I mean:


                   -------------------------------------   existing roofline
                   |                                   |
                   |                                   |
                   |             ^                     |
                   |            / \                    |
                   |           /   \                   |
                   |          /     \                  |
                   -----------       -------------------    bottom of roof
                   |         |       |                 |
                   |         |       |                 |
                   |         | porch |                 |
                   -------------------------------------

	You could even toss on a few skylights in the cathedral ceiling and
call it the "sunroom" instead of just a porch.

						       -craig (the other craig)

    Thanks to all for the valuable inputs. I may attempt some this weekend.
    
    Chris

      Go talk with the building inspector, who will have to approve your
      plans.  Most of these folks are very glad to take some  time  with
      your  "up  front".   After  all, it makes their job easier if your
      cooperating with them  rather  than  they're  having  to  take  an
      "enforcement" attitude.

      Codes  are important and should be followed to ensure that you end
      up with safe, functional construction.  But its also important  to
      put them in perspective. In this sense, "code requirements" are in
      third place.  First place goes to what you want; second place goes
      to what the inspector requires.

    	Will the example given also remove crayon from wallpaper ?
    
    	Ray

    Re: < Note 3298.10 by VICKI::DODIER >
    
    	Ray,

    	> Will the example given also remove crayon from wallpaper ?

        Yup, but the iron could make a mess of a flocked wallpaper.
        It'd work, but consider the implications of applying direct
        heat to the wallpaper (apart from the fact that there is
        crayon on the wall). Crayon (greasy stuff that it is) might
        also leave a residual stain, once removed, too.

        Brian

    For more infor about crayons and wallpaper see note 1010.  18 replies
    about that very topic.

    I have a deck question:
    
      We will be building a 9X9 self standing deck, which will be built an 
    inch or so from the house. Exiting the house, and directly beneath
    (1 1/2 ') is the dryer vent. Should some provision be made to vent the
    drier exhaust beyond the deck, (or through [ like a floor vent in a
    house])? Or is the the dryer exhaust vent OK where it is. It is not
    feasable to vent it at any other location.
      Another item to considor, although the dryer vents a significant
    amount of moisture, the deck/vent are on the South side od the house
    (in Mass. )and get a reasonable amount of sun.
     Also here is "my" post/joist layout, can you see any problems?
    
            house is here
    []||======================||[]
      ||                      ||
      ||======================||   The flooring will be diagonal, and the rails
      ||                      ||   will span between the posts, in other words
      ||======================||   the flooring will overhang the 2 parallel
      ||                      ||   joists, for the width of the beam (4X4)
      ||======================||   But there will be no load on that part  
      ||                      ||   because it will be under the rails. The
      ||======================||   2 parallel joists will be lag bolted to 
    []||          []          ||[] the beam (post) and the center ones will
    ============================== will be fastened w/ hangers.
        ^               ^
      front         stairs
    
    
                   thanx in advance/bob
    

I want to build a simple bench for my deck, and am concerned about
the angle of the seat back. I don't want to make it vertical, since that
is terribly uncomfortable. What is a good angle for the back, which I would
also like to come up reasonably high, maybe 32-36". I am currently thinking
about a perfectly horizontal seat, 16-18" deep, though I could make it
slightly inclined up at the front if that is better.

I already have two vertical 4x4 posts about 3ft high, 5ft apart that will
serve as the ends of the bench. I can trim them to seat height and hide
them if needed.

Thanks

Does anyone know what happens when you join aluminum and galvanized metal?  I
hear, for example, that you if you use galvanized nails to hold aluminum
flashing in place, the two metals with interact with one another and corrode.

I'm currently rebuilding a deck that currently has aluminum flashing just below
the siding.  My plans are to space the ledger board away from the band joist
and install pre-formed galvanized metal flashing from behind the bottom of the
siding up over the ledger board.

The problem is the galvanized flashing will have to be slipped up under the
existing aluminum flashing.  (I can't take the aluminum flashing out
without removing the siding.)  

What do you think will happen?  If there is corrosion, which of the two metals
is the loser?  If the aluminum corrodes and the galvanized metal stays intact,
that will be fine with me.

I'm pretty sure aluminum is the loser for aluminum/zinc.  It depends on the
metals sometimes, if one metal protects itself with an oxide layer, the reaction
may proceed very slowly.  Galvanized metal itself works like this, zinc in a
zinc/steel combination would lose, but the zinc protects itself and the steel
with a zinc oxide layer.

-Mike

    As to the height of the back...
    
    If you bench is part of the railing, there are local codes which
    determine the min. height of a railing.  Most require at least 36"
    to count as a railing on any deck which is more than 4 feet off
    the ground.  I am 6' 2" and find chairs with lows back VERY
    uncomfortable and so I think 36 is better than 32.  The top of the
    back should be at least to the middle/top of your shoulder blades.
    
    I went shopping for a couch a while back and found that the backs come
    in 32, 34, and 36.  I "test sat" all three and found that I felt like I
    was falling over backwards on the 32, the 34 hit me in the middle of my
    back and the 36 provided adequate support for my back.  Go to a
    furniture store and pretend to shop for a sofa and ask to sit in the
    various heights and see which you prefer.  I think ideally that the back
    should slope away up to a point and then straighten out or slope back in
    to provide a head rest.  Look at Lazy-Boy Recliners, that is what
    they do. 
    
    Should the front of the seat be angled towards the back...to be
    ergonomic, yes.  I have a chair at work which was recommended by my
    chiropractor and it has an adjustable front portion so that you can
    raise the front part 3/4 to 1 inch higher in the front than in the
    back.  The idea is to take the stress off your legs.  The ideal height
    is the distance from the bottom of your shoe to the inside of your knee
    so that your feet rest comfortably on the deck surface but do not have
    to support your thighs.  You don't want to have it too high because
    then your feet do not touch the deck and your feet swing and all the
    weight is born by your legs/thighs. (it also makes you feel like a
    little kid in a grown up chair.)   The problem is that no two people
    have the same distance between the bottom of their feet and the back of
    the knee and it will change for you if you have on shoes or are bare
    footed.  Measure a few chairs around the house that are comfortable to
    you.  Make the bench seat that height and at least you will be
    comfortable. 
    
    The distance from front to back should be the distance from your
    backside to the inside of your knee.  Again this differs for most
    people so take an average.  I have found most benches with NO back are
    deeper than those with backs. Don't know why, just seems to be that way. 
        
    As to the angle, I have been looking for a reference for that
    measurement for 2 years without success.  My dad put together a bench
    about 2 months ago and he took a 2x6 and "just cut an angle".  I sat
    on it briefly and found it to be very comfortable.   I will try
    and go over to his house and get the measurements for you but it
    make take a week or two before I am able.

    While reading .1 an idea came to mind.  Find yourself a car, with
    six way power seats.  Tilt the front, tilt the back, adjust all
    the angles.  When you've found what feels best, measure it and
    reproduce it on your deck.  That should work for everything, except
    the seat to floor height.
    
    Say... how about a six way power deck chair.   

    
    6 way power deck chairs can be found at Spag's, at the fish n' tackle
    counter, next to the air shredders.
    
    CdH
    

    	One reason to tilt the bench portion is to ensure water shedding.
    I did a couch that turned out comfortable and put a 10 degree tilt
    to the bottom part (about 1 in 6).  - Chris

> I'm pretty sure aluminum is the loser for aluminum/zinc.  It depends on the
> metals sometimes, if one metal protects itself with an oxide layer, the reaction
> may proceed very slowly.  Galvanized metal itself works like this, zinc in a
> zinc/steel combination would lose, but the zinc protects itself and the steel
> with a zinc oxide layer.

Are you suggesting that, since galvanized metal is coated with zinc and must 
have an oxide layer between the steel and the zinc coating, that there might be
an oxide layer on the outside of the zinc coating as well?  If there is an
oxide layer on the outside of the zinc coating, how slowly will the aluminum
corrode?  Years?  Decades?

re .9:

I do not know the speed the galvanic reaction between aluminum and zinc will
take place at.  Both metals have an oxide layer in air (aluminum actually
corrodes instantly in air to form it) so I'd guess it would proceed
slowly.  If you can prevent direct metal-to-metal contact, it will help.

>Are you suggesting that, since galvanized metal is coated with zinc and must 
>have an oxide layer between the steel and the zinc coating, that there might be
>an oxide layer on the outside of the zinc coating as well?

There's actually no oxide layer between the zinc and steel.  What happens, is,
when zinc and steel meet, the zinc starts to corrode, forming zinc oxide.  It
happens that zinc oxide, unlike iron oxide, sticks very well to zinc, and
eventually isolates the zinc from air.  If it is scratched, zinc oxide will
form, healing the scratch.  If the zinc is scratched through to the steel, the
higher activity of the zinc will protect the steel.  The zinc oxide even
spreads a little, so the steel will eventually get coated with zinc oxide if
the scratch is small.

-Mike

    
      On boats which are in the water, zinc is used as a sacrificial
    metal to *protect* alminum (and other metals) from corroding. Where
    the zinc will be the metal that is lost to the current that flows
    between it and the other metals. So I guess your aluminum will be ok
    and it will be the zinc you will have to worry about. Of course
    you have to remember that fresh water is not *that* good of an
    electrolyte so the process will be slow, AND of course it will
    only occur when the metals are wet.
    
    					Kenny

>    I did a couch that turned out comfortable and put a 10 degree tilt
>    to the bottom part (about 1 in 6).  - Chris

Sounds like a lot.  In an 18" seat, that would mean that the front was 3"
higher than the back.  That sounds like it would work OK for a chair that
reclined quite a bit (and had a headrest), but not for a seat that is meant to
be sat in straight. 

With that in mind, don't make the seat slope back very far.  What you want is
just enough slope to make people comfortable, while still sitting UPRIGHT.  If
you tilt back too far, then people's necks get tired, because there is no
support for their head.  Assuming of course you don't want to try to get into
headrests, which aren't really appropriate for deck benches, and which are even 
more difficult to make comfortable for all body sizes.

Paul

Most of the chair plans I've seen call for a 7 degree angle from the
    seat back to the top of the backrest.

    
    
    		I just yesterday installed benches on my new deck and used
    	a FREE booklet from Grossmans' to pick out the style I wanted.  The
    	angle mine use is 6" back for 36" of height.  They seem quite
    	comfortable.  There are also usually other free pamphlets at hard-
    	ware and lumber stores that help you design your own decks and
    	deck trimmings.
    

        I have a wooden deck which is about five years old, and
        is in great shape, except its loaded with splinters.  I
        can't even run my hand along the rail without getting
        stuck.  The wood was treated with a preservative soon
        after the house was built.  I have been thinking about
        taking a sander to the wood to get rid of the splinters,
        but wonder if I would need to refinish it afterward.
        Anyone else had this problem, or is it something that I'm
        'stuck' with?   We would like for our 8 month old
        daughter to be able to play on the deck without worrying
        about getting poked with all the splinters.  Any
        suggestions?
        
        Wil

Is it made of pressure-treated wood?  If so, then splinters are more than
just a pain - there are poisons in the treatment that are pretty nasty, I hear.

I'd say, pressure-treated or no, sand it all down, concentrate on where your
youngster (or anyone) will put his/her/their hands.  Then seal it.  If you
like its looks now, there should be a clear-ish enough stain or finish that
should satisfy you.

And, if it's pressure-treated and you sand it, a similar caution should be
followed concerning inhaling the stuff.

    I am thinking of sanding down my deck also. It is pressure treated. My
    deck is rather large and it is taking me some time to ensure there are
    no nail heads sticking up. After I replace some boards, I guess I'll
    just rent a floor sander and some very coarse paper and go to it. Nail
    heads will take out a sanding belt before you can blink.
    Then I'm going to stain and seal. 
    
    Dave.

	With your 8-month old baby, I'd wonder if sanding/refinishing the deck
would be enough to make me feel that the baby is safe.  You and I both know
(I have a 7-month old at home... :-) :-) that they will attempt to eat anything
in sight.  If I was in your situation, I'd consider putting an indoor-outdoor
carpet on the deck.  Nothing fancy (ie. expensive), but enough to cover the deck
surface while the baby is in the chew-on-everything mode.

								-craig

    I agree with Craig.  Get some indoor/outdoor carpet from K-Mart
    as they have the inexpensive stuff (read:cheap) that will last while
    the little one is in the chewing stage.
                                                                    
    
    (Am I talking about a puppy or a child???  Same difference.  *8).....)