Conference 7.286::home_work

    Does anyone have any information/experience with the Toro snow
    shovels? The shovel is electric powered and claims to be able to
    throw the snow up to 12ft, and handle snow up to 6inches deep.
    Can anyone compare this to a full-fledged snow blower?
    
    I'm considering this as a gift for somebody who really doesn't have
    very much snow to worry about, and not a very large area to keep
    clean.

    Thanks in adance
    mike

    Input from the service dept.......
    
    They are a piece of crap....
    
    Don't quote me !!! just passing along their comments.
    
    Merle

I've always thought that the 'power shovels' were a total waste of money.  I 
tried using one once on about 4" of powder snow, and it could only just barely 
cope with it.  Any amount of snow that the power shovel can deal with is easy 
to shovel by hand, and if you get a deeper snowfall you'll have to use some 
other method because the power shovel will be about as useful at clearing snow 
as, say, a sewing machine.

Paul

    I have a gas powered one from Weedeater.  I got it free when
    I bought the weed attachment.  It's has limited usefulness and
    can only handle about 4-6" of fluffy snow.  Where it does help
    though is that you don't have to lift and thus it reduces the
    sore back syndrome.  You just push it and it throws the snow
    out of the way.  Unfortunately it throws the snow straight ahead
    exactly into the path where you are going to shovel next (as
    opposed to a snow blower which sends it off to the side).  So
    you go across your driveway instead of lengthwise.
    
    Works well if you don't have a very large area considering the
    big difference in price as compared to a useful snowblower.
    
    -al

Speaking from living in Detroit, Mi, and Houghton, Upper Michigan, whose annual
snowfall is about 350 inches, 90% of the people who have snowblowers,
snowthrowers, snowbrooms, snowvaccums, etc, have wasted their money.   Most
people don't get enough snow, and have a large enough area to clear to justify
the money, and the work involved in using and maintaining the thing.

I figure you have to have at least a 1000 square feet to clear of 4 inches of
snow at a time at least once week to make it worth it.  And I feel this is being
conservative.  The only exception is if you are elderly, maybe, then you *might*
find a use for a snow*, but personnally I think that you are better off paying a
local rugrat to do it.   Except for the elderly, the snowthrowers aren't worth
it in any circumstances.  If you do have heavy snowfalls, and do not want to
lift it, get a 'Upper Scooper', a snow scooper... 

Jim.

    Do you really mean to say that Detroit and Houghton get about 30
    feet of snow a year?    If so, you'd need one heck of a snow blower
    to clear a drive come the end of winter.  Can you throw snow 20+
    feet up?
    
                                                August G. Reinig

    Well folks, thanks for the quick input! I'm still not sure if I'll
    get one, they sound feeble. It would be for my father; He lives in an area
    where they don't get very much snow, and he really shouldn't be
    doing very much shoveling anyway.

    mike

Houghton gets that much snow, Detroit does not...

Needless to say, you'don't wait all winter to shovel the snow, and then again,
some of it melts, some of it packs down, ... six foot snow banks and showdrifts
are common...

Jim.

    
    I thought about buying one for my folks too, but backed off when
    I looked at them.  I think you'd be picking the thing up fairly
    often to point it in different directions, which I felt would be
    almost as much of a chore as manually shoveling the snow.  It's
    weight is significant.
    
    I think Toro was aiming at a market which was open (lo-cost
    snowblowers) but it turned out that it was one of those products
    which simply didn't workj too well.   This may be why Toro has been
    offering 10 buck rebates on 'em because they want to move them,
    and they weren't selling all that well.  Plus they've been on sale
    practically everywhere.
    
    Steve
    

    Here's the first reply from somebody who actually owns one.  
    
    It's okay.  Really.  For what it does, it's just fine.  The purpose
    of the thing is to keep you from having to lift up the snow and
    toss it somewhere else.  With a little bit of common sense, and
    a bit of practice you can get adept at making diagonal patterns
    in your driveway that clear the snow without tossing it back onto
    your intended pathway.  It has a pretty good range, and works best
    when you use short, sharp strokes.  The nice thing about it is that
    you can easily clean steps and other raised surfaces that are
    impossible for a standard blower.  It obviously is not for deep
    snow (although with scooping motions you can whittle away a pretty
    good sized drift), or very wet snow.  It's easy to handle (fairly
    light) and I'm much more likely to grab it and use it then if I
    had to fire up (and maintain) a larger, typically gas-driven blower.
    
    After the rebate, it only cost me $55.  (got it at Zayre's for $65
    three years ago).

Re: .9

I got one second hand a couple of years ago for $10, not expecting much.
The thing actually works well.  As stated in .9, you need to use a diagonal
approach, but otherwise, it works well on fairly thick snow.  

It is noisy.  And it is not for large areas--just a short driveway or a 
sidewalk. 

Alex

    then again...
    
    did you ever try to make a snow blower climb steps?  to do a porch
    or deck?  And some of those snow blowers have a mind of their own...
    the self-propelled operate on a path of least resistance!  If an
    elderly person tries to handle a xxx lb hung of metal on tires I
    hope they have strong backs (and legs)!
    
    Support the economy...get a local kid to shovel it!!!
    
    

Winter is coming and along with it snow.  I just moved into a house
with a very very long driveway that is not humanly possible to shovel
by hand.   So I am considering purchasing a snowblower ... a very big
snowblower.  The driveway in question is located in Wilton N.H, is
about 600 feet long and to complicate things is gravel.
My questions are:
	1. What size snowblower will do the job?  
	2. What brands are adequate enough to hold up?  I
		am currently considering a 32" wide, 10hp model
		from sears.
	3. What features are important taking into account I have
		a gravel driveway.  I have been told the that unevenous
		of a gravel driveway does not lend itself to good
		traction with wheels and the sears model with treads
		would do a better job. 
	4. Will a snowblower work very well at all on a gravel driveway
		because of traction problem mentioned above as well as
		eating gravel and choking on it.
	5. Anything else anyone can think of?  Yes I have thought of
		calling someone to plow my driveway but that can get
		expensive and I would like to be a little more independent.

Thanks for any help in advance,
	Larry

    If you want to keep your independence yet not be a slave to clearing
    your drive, then consider looking in the Wantads for an old PU or Jeep
    with a snowplow. I think 600 feet is two much driveway for any snowblower.
    It takes only a fraction of the time using a vehicle than a snowblower,
    especially with the amounts of smow we had in MA last year.
    
    Our driveway is 1000' long and I wouldn't even consider a snowblower.

    I'll agree with .1 - 600 feet is a h*ll of a long driveway to
    use a snowblower on - even if you get a real wide one.  It's
    almost 1/10 of a mile you want to clear - you'd probably run out
    of gas in the snowblower after the 2nd or 3rd pass.  if you
    can afford it, I'd look for something larger to plow, not blow.
    Even a tractor with a snow blower might not be enough.  I guess
    my suggestion is to hire someone to plow, though.
    
    andy
    

    I guess I have to agree on it being a bit much. I have about the
    same in total but I can do it in sections. The drive, the parking
    areas, the road to the barn, the turn-around area etc. I do the
    drive and parking areas and then start the road to the barn( 300ft.)
    If I run out of gas then it's no big pain.
    
    I'm getting a new blower this year and am thinking about a John
    Deere 10hp. I used to do it with a 5hp 20" that was 20years old!
    
    As far as wheels vs tracks...I've used wheels with chains on a stone
    driveway and gravel raod without much trouble. After the first couple
    of storms and freezing weather things tend to start leveling out
    by themselves.
    
    Be aware that with the gravel you will NEVER get all of the snow
    off and it will freeze and will get SLIPPERY!
    
    Yo may need a 4X4 just to get in and out anyway!
    /tb/
                       

    If you insist on blowing the snow (I agree with .-1 et al that it
    is a bit much for a blower), you will not have TRACTION problems
    on the gravel as much as you will find yourself operating a high
    powered combination shotgun and shrapnel device!  My driveway was
    still gravel last winter due to construction in progress, and it
    was a pain in the $&$& everytime I cleared it.  It is almost impossible
    to walk the fine line between going deep enough to do any good (ie,
    getting all the snow off the ground) ag#nd not too deep so as to
    pick up the stones.  
   
    If you insist on blowing the snow, I hope your vehicles are not
    new, as you will add a few dings to them in the process.  Go for
    a tractor or a cheap PU with a plow.
    
    -reed
    

    PLowing may be your cheapest way out. I good snowblower (8 to 10hp)
    will run you $1100 to 1400. You could probably get someone with
    a pickup & plow to do it for $25 to $30 per storm. Here in N. Eng.
    we average less then 10 plowable (over 3") storms per year. At that
    rate you could keep your money in the bank earning interest and
    plow for the next 4 to 5 years before you even break even (
    disregarding all the financial payback razzle dazzle). My advice
    would  be to stay in where its warm, watch the football games, and
    let some kid in a pickup truck make a couple of bucks. 
    
    By the way, I was a hard core shoveler for many years until last
    year, when I was building my new house, I didn't have time to shovel
    so I hired a plow to do the 150' driveway and landing for $15 per
    storm. Last year cost me $90 for the season and you'll never see
    me shovel a driveway again!
    g

    If you decide to go the snowblower route hope you have better luck
    with Sears than I did. Had three blowers delivered 8HP and each
    one was either broken or broke on first try, but the price was good!
    Finally bought a Jacobson and have had four years of good luck.

    If you decide to go with a snowblower, get the biggest, meanest
    one you can find.  Toro 8hp is pretty good.
    If you've got that size driveway, you probably have a fair-sized
    houselot.  How about investing in a good lawn-garden tractor in
    the 16hp range, and getting a 2-stage snowblower attachment for
    it?  They are NOT cheap - the attachment will cost as much as a
    stand-alone snowblower, probably - but for that size driveway it
    might be the way to go.  Only a few companies offer 2-stage blowers
    for their tractors.  Ariens is one, and I think (but am not sure)
    John Deere.  You are probably looking at $5,000+ for the whole
    works, though.

Thanks for all of the replys so far.
It seems the consensus is to plow.  I have pretty much ruled out
buying an old 4x4 with a plow for two reaons:
1.  I dont want a beat up old truck in my yard.
2.  It seems more expensive to go this route and I end up with
	something that may not even last a couple of years.

I would have liked to get more feedback from people using snowblowers.
From the people I work with I got mixed comments.
I guess I will end up trying to find someone to plow for this season.
I currently have someone lined up at $35 a pop.  I thought that was quite
high so I will continue to look (although it probably isnt high 
considering my driveway).
One of the other problems I have with plowing is that it all get gets pushed
towards my house.   Last spring when the snow melted it all melted into
my garage/basement.  I believe this was caused by years of plowing a mound
just in front of the garage.  The snow melted and water went down the 
slope into my basement i.e 3" of water, sump pump, and digging a small
ditch through the ice hard slope so that the water could escape ...
what a pain!  One weekend this summer was spent with a Bobcat
removing said slope!  I'm afraid that continuous plowing could
cause this problem again.
I still believe there is hope for the snowblower but I will probably wait.
Lets here more from the snowblower crowd!

    If your driveway is 600' long why must the snow be piled up by the
    house?  Seems like a 'reasonable' person working a plow could find
    somewhere else to dump most of the snow.  Be that as it may....there's
    nothing like the clean lines left from a snowblower.  In fact I've
    got two of them, sort of a his_and_hers models.  Both are Ariens,
    mine is a five horse, my wife drives the 7hp.  There is something
    to be said for yelling sweet_nothings over the roar of the two engines
    as we pass in opposite directions while doing the driveway.  At
    the moment we pass the streams of thrown snow make us look like
    two giraffes with necks intertwined in the Serendipity Plain.
    
    The point I'm getting at here is that snowblowing is a particpation
    sport.  It's also more independent in that I control when my driveway
    is clear rather than when the snow plow operator gets around to
    me.  It's also nice to have the machine after the street plow comes
    by and leaves the hard packed slush that makes you wonder just how
    heavy water can be.
    
    For sure it'll take longer than a plow, and with the length of your
    driveway that should be a major consideration.  But Ive always
    preferred the end results and the independence of having a snowblower,
    and found that I still enjoy playing in the snow......
    
    oh yeah, and on the practical side make sure you get planty of
    'breakaway' bolts since you'll be going over gravel.  They're special
    bolts which in the front auger which break before the drive shaft
    should you get a rock of other object jammed in the auger.
    
    -Stan

    If you are still looking for someone to plow, Steve Brown, he works
    at the Wilton service station charged me $20 for a 100' driveway
    You may want to look him up if your interested in another estimate.
    
    I am currently using a snowblower to clear my driveway.   It's a
    stone driveway and last year I had the problem others mentioned
    about picking up stones with the snowblower.   I friend had the
    same problem and he installed small wheels on the front of his
    snowblower as to keep the front of the machine 1" off of the drive.
    He doesn't pick up anymore stones, but his driveway always has a
    couple inches of snow on it.   But with a stone or gravel drive,
    you won't get it as clear as a paved drive as others have mentioned
    anyways.   I am going to try this for the upcoming season, so I
    can't recommend this method from a personel standpoint, but my friend
    has had positive results.   Has anyone else tried this idea?
    
    Has far as Sears snowblowers, I've heard all bad news about them.
    Just a personel opinion.   

    I've got a Toro 7hp, 9years old.  Works fine.  If I were getting
    another though, for any sizable driveway, I'd get the 8hp, or
    larger if there is anything larger.  The 8hp has larger wheels,
    more oil capacity, and is just generally more rugged.  The big
    Toro snowblowers are really good, as are Ariens.
    
    The Toro has adjustable skids on the front you can set to give
    from 0 to about 1.5" above the driveway; on gravel, you set them
    to maximum clearance.  After a couple of snowstorms the gravel
    all freezes down and it's no longer a problem anyway, at least
    for me, but my driveways have been more sand than rocks; a lot of
    loose rocks might be more or a problem, I'm not sure.

I've had a Snapper 8 HP blower for three winters - and it's been great.
We had been using a plowing 'service', but found two problems: 1- they come
when they CAN, so you have to wait for them, and 2- they are hell on
landscaping (they put the snow in a couple of spots and those spots better
LIKE being buried under tons of snow..)

I'll second the "biggest and meanest" recommendation - when you fire up
the blower, you want the snow GONE. One of my neighbors has a 5 HP blower
- and when the street is plowed his blower literally bounces off the drift
from the city plow while my 8 Hp just eats through it.

Blowers seem to come in four "ranges":

3 HP and below (they make nice toys in NH)

5 HP - fairly wide range in price. Fairly compact.

7 and 8 HP - MUCH bigger machines.

10 HP - these are "industrial" and are wider and cost lots more.

The price difference between 5HP and 7-8 is significant. I found the price
difference from 7 to 8 HP pretty small (less that $100). Go for a machine
that has LARGER driving wheels; get TIRE CHAINS; get ELECTRIC START (pull
starting an 8-HP gas engine at 10 degrees is not fun); SERVICE the engine
EVERY season (I let mine go for 2 and needed to have it worked on in mid-season
- not a good idea).

Based on the length of your driveway, if you get a blower, GET UP EARLY!

Dennis

    My neighbor got his Jeep stuck with the plow hung up on a bank of
    snow one year...I dug it out with my 20year old 5hp snowblower!
    
    Bobcat 1	Jeep 0
    
    /tb/
    

    As a person who repairs snowblowers as a hobby, I wouldn't recommend
    using one on a gravel driveway. The impeller and blower housing
    will get destroyed in a short period of time. It's also dangerous
    when the small stones sling out at a high velocity. How about getting
    a fairly large garden tractor with a plow, weight the wheels and
    hang additional weight on the back and use quality chains.

    Reading this note made me feel much better.  I'm glad to see others
    have fun in the winter storms.  I have a 240' loooooooong driveway
    that rises about 25' off the road pretty quickly.  I am militant
    about parking in my own garage.  I use a plow service who,
    unfortunately, is not doing it this winter.  The guy got me through
    last winter at $20 per pop.  (though he put a note in our mailbox
    saying snows over 12" when he had to come back a second time would be 
    $35 in the future after the 14"er we had - yes he would actually
    come back and do it a second time on heavy snows for $20!) Even when 
    my driveway is plowed I have to go out and touch it up or I can't make 
    the grade.  So no matter what I do I am a slave to the snow.  I
    vote for using a plow service.  I got through last winter for $100.
    I'd shovel the damn thing on weekends until the plow came for exercise.
    On the smaller snows I'd beat the plow.  One consideration, I suppose,
    is I never have any trouble getting oooo
                                            o
                                             o
                                              u
                                               u
                                                ttt of my drive way!
    
    Have fun
    Stan                                           

	Why not do like some vermonters do....

		Just get a big ole 4X4 and just drive over the snow
		all winter long 'til it melts....

						..... :^)

In Houghton, MI, (average snowfall 300+"), my parking area never got plowed. I
jus' would drive the '65 Satellite over, and into the snowdrift, run in back and
forth a couple of times to create some starting room, and then when you want to
get out, just rock it a couple of times, and you're off and running.  On a level
grade, once you're going, *no* problem.   Each time you park, move over a bit to
pack down the rest of the parking area, and avoid the same ruts.  The worst
problem was when the county plow comes by in the middle of the night and leaves
3+' ofb bank that freezes into solid ice!  Lost a headlight once that way...
Seriously, I did get stuck about once a year, a couple of grunts from some
fellows, and it's out.

If you know how to drive on ice and snow, is there *really* any need to clear
the snow?  A lot of northern people do spread sand on it, but most don't even
bother with salt.   Now, if you have a hill involved in the wrong place, you are
probably better off clearing the snow, but not all the time... 

Jim.

    I bought an Ariens 8hp.   They had a sale - $999 with electric start,
    but it's over now.   Buy snow blowers in the summer and lawn mowers
    in the winter...

RE: 1508.9 

>    me.  It's also nice to have the machine after the street plow comes
>    by and leaves the hard packed slush that makes you wonder just how
>    heavy water can be.
    
	I've lived in New England for 30 years and owned a house with 180
	ft. total of (shoveled) driveway (100ft. to main st and 80 ft to
	other, I live on a corner so sometimes the second drive doesn't
	get done!;-) for 4 years.  After last year I don't wonder about 
	that anymore.  And I do intend to have a snowblower this winter.
    
	Using the 10% average rule does 600ft. of driveway mean you have
	60 ft. of sidewalk to clear.  I would think you would want the 
	snowblower to clear your sidewalks and the driveway area near the 
	house, have the plow pile your snow a little ways away and that
	would eliminate your springtime water problem.

	There is a lot to be said about independence, remember the blizzard
	of '78 :-) Or what do you do in a big storm when the plows have more
	than they can handle and your regular guy is broke down?

RE: Vermont

	This is a religious attitude, 

		God put it there God *will* take it away :-)
	
			Vermonters are very patient :-)
	Randy

    For your edification, these are the prices I've been quoted so far,
    in my search:
    
    	Ariens 10 hp $1399
    	Snapper 10 hp $1299
    	Ariens or Snapper 8 hp $1099
    
    All 24" auger width.
    
    Other equally good machines are available.  My local dealer leans
    toward Snapper because it has fewer parts by design, therefore should
    be more reliable (also his opinion based on servicing).  Also FYI,
    he says that if this is a typical year, he has already sold more
    than half of the snowblowers he will sell this winter.  
    
    pbm
    

    
    
    600 feet of driveway plus room for the mailbox plus the wlkupto
    the house etc., etc., etc. adds up to a lot of work. even if you
    had a paved drive. For something that size you would need an industrial
    giant of 10HP with a 36 inch min cut to get through in any reasonable
    length of time. 
    
    one thing no seems to have mentioned is that running a snowblower
    of any major size is a participation sport. Even with good chains
    and big tires it is sometimes difficult to contol the beast if you
    get onto a layer of ice plus you have the noise of the engine and
    the exhaust fumes and loose snow blowing in your face. 
    
    Use a plow service or your own truck for the big job then use a
    midrange blower for touch up. you can then have the truck to use
    for hauling fire wood or fishing gear or camping gear or making
    dump runs.
    
    Steve (big jacobsen with 36 inch cut)
    
    
    

While were on the subject of snowblower brandnames I've heard that
the John Deare (sp?) is an excellent model.
I was sorry to hear that Sears did not produce a good model.
Although they are advertising (in a catalogue) a new track model.
Its 10hp, 32inch cut and feature for feature looks as good as the
others and its about $300 cheaper ($1050 in the winter catalogue).
The equivalent Ariens cost about $1400 on sale!  Do you get what 
you pay for?

    RE: .22
    Do you get what you pay for?
    
    Yes, I'd say so.  Some of it you can see; a lot of it you can't see 
    but the differences will show up in 5 or 10 years when one breaks 
    and the other doesn't.  You may get a machined steel part on one 
    and a zinc die-casting on the other, for example; both may look 
    the same when painted, but that's about the only similarity.
    Grade 5 or grade 8 bolts vs. grade 2 bolts, maybe.  Stuff like
    that.

    I have an AREINS 8hp, works great. It's about three years old never
    had a problem. (3 years from the time I bought It)
    
    It was used by the shop where I bought it, to do the front of the
    store, so they took off approx $200. The machine probably had 6
    to 10 hours on it.	
    
    Really makes the driveway a piece of cake, and the walk, and from
    the back stairs to the bulkhead, and to the shed.,etc. get carried
    away sometimes.
    
    I talked to to alot of dealers who also repair other brands, they
    will tell you which ones are easiest to fix, (less labor cost to
    repair), and which ones are the worst. These guys work on these
    machines all the time. They are the experts. However, when they
    talk about the brand they sell you take it with a grain of salt.
    But when they talk about the brands they don't sell, you are
    getting his less biased opinion.
    
    Ask to see any used machines?? Taken on trade..get an idea of how
    old the machines are that are being traded in. You can assume that
    the owner was unhappy with the machine and try to dig at what it
    was that the owner didn't like.  
    

RE: .17  >> In Houghton, MI, (average snowfall 300+")\
    
    Boy... sounds like it would be even tough to get in & out of the garage
    yet alone the driveway.  Watch that first step, itsa doo-zee!! :-)
    
    -al

    Not all sears blowers are bad. My father has had one for 3 years
    now and it still works fantastic after several 21" snowfalls.
    I must admit the snow here is much lighter(powder) but it still
    sees alot of work each year average 100+ hours of run time.
    I use it on my driveway which is about 75' long and it always drifts
    about 3-5' deep the full length %$#$^#&*$!!
    
    -j
    

    Engineering does have a lot to do with snowblowers.  I friend (in
    my old group) had the experience of borrowing his brother's snowblower
    when his own (Sears) model broke.  The results were interesting.
    I told the story in CONSUMERS, so I'll cross-post the note here.
    The Sears model is good; it's the COMPARISON between Sears and
    something else when you REALLY see the difference, though.
    
    By the way, CONSUMERS has a few notes on the topic of snowblowers
    that you might want to take a look at ... hit KP7 to select.
    
            <<< BEING::DISK$DATA01:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CONSUMER.NOTE;1 >>>
                             -< Consumer's Digest >-
================================================================================
Note 489.2                        Snowblowers?                           2 of 33
RSTS32::COFFLER "Jeff Coffler"                       16 lines  14-NOV-1986 09:22
                      -< Ariens makes a good snowblower >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I'd also recommend the Ariens snowblowers.  I have the 8hp model
    and am very happy with it.  I purchased it on recommendations of
    some friends and have zero complaints.
    
    It's a very strong machine, does well (even with wet snow), and
    parts availability (at least in NH) is excellent.
    
    I know of three other people in my group with similar Ariens models,
    and all of us are happy with them.
    
    One person in my group once compared an 8hp Sears Snowblower with
    an 8hp Ariens Snowblower.  He was shocked.  Given that the engine
    sizes were the same, he expected the capabilities to be the same.
    Instead, the Ariens was able to throw snow much farther, deal with
    much deeper snow, and deal with wet snow much better ... he realized
    that engineering had a lot to do with the quality of the snowblower.

the consumers notes file has a good discussion on various snowblowers in
note 489 (as mentioned previously).

RE: Houghton

Nah.. It wasn't that bad, but you could *expect* three inches of new snow
*every* night.. just enough to pack down nicely... :-)

Jim.

    We have a 3.5 HP single stage snow blower from JC Penny [made by
    Atlas lawn and garden machinery. Last winter, It started usually
    after the second pull. Can this and is there a retrofit electric
    start for Briggs and Stratton 4 cycle engines?
    
    /cal

    I just saw an add for a brand called Simplicity.  Anyone know
    about this one?  Good?  Bad?
    
    -al

    I've shopped Ariens and Snapper, and find they both have some
    shortcomings, but either would be adequate.  I'm compiling a
    list of features and am trying to find a blower that meets all
    these requirements:
    
    	One hp for each 10 linear feet of driveway (rule of thumb)
    means I need 8 hp.
    
    		Lockout differential
    		Adjustable skids
    		Auger brake
    		Auger clutch
    		Electric (120V) start
    		4 or 5 speeds forward, 1 reverse
    		"Big" tires
    		All controls at handlebars: auger, forward travel clutch,
    		  throttle, choke, starter, chute discharge angle
    
    Haven't found a machine that has all these features.  Has anybody?
    
    pbm
    

    I've seen many reply regarding 8hp or larger machine, but very
    little or none on 5hp machine. I have a small drive-way (40 ft)
    and a slighly-sloped side-walk ( 50 ft ). I have a 3hp, single stage
    , push type machine ( it was a gift ). It wasn't too bad on powder
    snow and on the flat drive-way. But try to push it up the side-walk
    is a hell of a job, and it wouldn't work on wet snow. I am thinking
    of buying another one, bigger and have drive-gear ( don't want to
    push anymore ). I think 8hp may be too big. Will 5hp be good enough to
    do the job for such a small area ? Any suggestion/comments on any
    brands of 5hp machine ? and what kind of $$$ am I talking about?
    I live in the Boston area, NOT New Hampshire, and normally has less
    snow than NH.
    
    
    
     

    I have a 5hp Ariens and a 7hp Ariens.  The 5HP works OK for the
    small stuff and would probably be adequate for what you describe.
    Get chains for the wheels as they make a tremendous difference on
    traction, especially when you're clearing the slop at the end of
    the driveway deposited by the street plow.
    
    
    Question:   Is anybody familiar with some of the newer snowblowers
    which have a 'drum' instead of the front auger?  It looks like it
    wouldn't cut through the hard stuff as well but probably doesn't
    clog up as much either.

I would like to thank everybody for their input to my questions.  Between
this notes files and the consumers notes file I believe that it is possible
(although not necessarily intelligent) to snowblow a very large unpaved
driveway.  I did purchase a very large used snowblower. It is a
2 year old 10hp 33" cut Yardman.  I got for about half the price of a new
one.  It has a tecumsah engine and appears to be in decent condition.
For anyone else not looking to pay full price in the Mass. area, the
"Want Advertiser" has a good number of snowblowers/tracters etc.  advertised.
I will report back after the first good snowfall. 

    re: .32
    
    The Ariens 8hp certainly has nearly everything you've mentioned. Mine
    has all of the features you've mentioned (although a few of the
    features are optional, such as electric start).  Electric start
    isn't as useful as you might think with the Ariens, though; I've
    never failed to start mine on the first or second pull.
    
    As for all controls being at the handlebars, I honestly don't remember
    (it's been almost a year since I've operated mine :^)).  Certainly the
    auger/forward travel clutch controls are at the handlebars, as is the
    chute discharge angle, choke, and throttle. I honestly don't recall the
    rest, but can look at mine if you'd like.
    
    An option that I like a lot on my snowblower, by the way, is the
    light.  Even though the driveway is reasonably well lit, I like
    to have an exceptionally bright area in front of the snowblower
    so I can decide what to hit next ...
    
    	-- Jeff

    re .33
    I've had an Ariens 5 hp for two full seasons and have @70-80' driveway
    with a turn-around in it.  If I had it to do over again I would
    buy the 8 or 10 hp model.  It can't throw the heavy snow the 20'
    that I require at some spots of the driveway and has bogged down
    in the REAL heavy stuff (snow that's been rained on).  Chains are
    a must.  
                         
    One hint:  I've found that removing the horizontal directional gizmo
    at the top of the discharge chute allows the snow to shoot
    considerably further.

    Re .36
    
    Unfortunately, the Ariens control design has taken a step
    backwards.  It is true that pre-1987 models had all controls
    at the handlebars; the newer ones have the choke and throttle
    control by lever at the engine.  This is not super-critical,
    but it is disappointing.
    
    I agree that the electric start is of marginal utility, but
    I'm trying to find something my rather puny wife can handle
    when I'm away from home.
    
    Re .37
    
    Thanks, this is really helpful.  I was considering maybe going
    to 5hp, but I'll stick with the 8 - 10 hp range.  You can't get
    this kind of information from the sales people.
    
    pbm
    

    Re .37
    
    Removing the deflector at the top of the chute may not be such a
    good idea for light fluffy snow. If there is any cross wind, you
    want to blow the snow at a fairly shallow angle, and perhaps throw
    it the rest of the way on a subsequent pass. If you throw it too
    high, the wind will catch it and blow it right back in your face.
    
    Dave, who-who-takes-a-religeous-approach. "The lord bringeth, the 
                                               Lord taketh away...eventually"

    I have an Ariens 5 hp snow blower and have been very happy with
    it.  It is now starting its fourth season of upstate NY winters.
    I have a two car driveway about 75 feet long, moderate incline.
    Last year we had a constant layer of two to three feet of snow on
    the ground.  Must have used the blower 3-4 times a week for 6weeks
    straight.  I feel the Ariens was very dependable.  I would have
    liked a little more power, thou, especially for the area where the
    snow plows doing the street pile up large drifts.  If I had to
    buy another one (hopefully not for many years) I would buy another
    Ariens but with a taller opening in -- three foot drifts are rough
    with the 5 hp machine.  Allso I would definitly get an 8 hp unit.
    
    By the way:  I did not get the electric start and I am glad I didn't.
    Always starts on the first pull.  Even if I barely tug on the cord.
    Electric start on this model would be a money poorly spent.  Maybe
    an 8 hp model would be harderr to start?
    
    I also did not get chains since I don't have a really step hill.
    Again I am glad I didn't.  Saved me money and is very easy to roll
    backward and manover in tight places without chains and drive
    disengaged.  My neighbor has the same model with chains and takes
    much longer to do his driveway since with the chains he has to put
    the thing in reverse to backup in tight places and deep snow.
    
    My recomendation is that Ariens is a good make.
    The 5 hp machine is good but would really recomend a slightly bigger
    model.  Don't get the electric start for the 5 hp machine and save
    you money if you go that rought.  And manoverablity is much better
    without chains if you can get away without them.
    
    Just another 2 cents from a non-expert.
    
    -JFK-
    

    re: .38
    
    Indeed, that is why I got the electric starter myself (although I
    personally never use it).  My girlfriend at the time (a puny
    woman), who would occasionally snow blow for me, nearly fell
    backwards when she tried to start the snowblower.  Even with her
    marginal pull, though, the snowblower still started.
    
    The Ariens 8hp model that I have always starts easily, and I'm not
    a terribly large fellow.  I am considerably stronger than most
    women, though.
    
    My suggestion for the electric starter: Have each person that will
    start the snowblower try it at the dealer.  If they can start it
    manually, don't bother with the electric starter.  If a teen-ager
    or a small woman has some balance problems, better safe than
    sorry.
    
    re: .40
    
    I do have chains, and I highly recommend them.  I don't see why
    having chains should affect the maneuverability of the unit.  All
    the chains do is make sure the unit is firmly footed to the ground.
    I can easy (and frequently do) pull the unit backwards without
    switching into reverse gear.  My attitude: If the snowblower
    unexpectedly slips on a slight slope, you're likely to lose your
    balance and fall (and this indeed happened to me before I had the
    chains).  Again, better safe than sorry ...

    re: .41
    
    Looking back at my reply .40 I stand corrected in the issue of
    improved safety using chains.  I agree that the chains could very
    easily avoid an acident from happening.  
    	(SAFETY is very important - so get them if you need them)
    
    I do, however, feel it is difficult to backup with the added 
    resistance of the chains, guess I am weak!  Seriously, you have
    made some good points but I feel in my situation that I don't 
    need the chains and like the cost savings and improved manoverability.
    
    -JFK- 

    From what I hear so far, the 8hp is a much better machine ( as far
    as power concern ), but the 5hp is also a GOOD machine with enough
    power for small jobs ( <50 ft drive-way & < 3f drift of snow ).
    Since I don't have a large drive-way, & 2 ft snow is very rare in
    my area, and don't have steep slope, I think the 5hp may/should
    be adaquate for my application.
    
    Now, can anyone tell me how much the 5hp, and the 8hp are selling
    for ? Where can I get a better deal in Mass, or in southern NH ?
    I'll either buy the 5hp or the 8hp depending on the difference in
    the price, and I want to buy it before the snow season.
    

    RE .43
    
    A new Ariens 8 hp w/electric start sells for $1099 at my local
    dealer's in Haverhill, Mass.  A 10 hp is $1299.  Apparently there
    is also a 7 hp model for people like me who are still waffling
    between 5 hp being adequate and 8 hp being a bit too much, as 
    well as more than I really want to spend.
    
    For comparison, a Toro 521 sells for $725 in the same area, 
    5 hp Ariens a litle higher.
    
    pbm
    

    re: .43
    
    For an Ariens snow blower, you might want to try Osgood's in Nashua,
    NH.  When I got mine a few years ago, there was an early-bird sale (for
    anything before October 1st or November 1st or maybe December 1st, I
    can't remember) that would get you $100.00 off of a new snowblower.
    Give them a call, check availability, and see if they still have their
    early-bird sale ...
    
    	-- Jeff

    Don't go strictly by price...
    In addition to who has the cheapest price, also factor into your
    considerations who has the best service department.  Given a
    choice between a rock-bottom price at one place and a better
    service department at another, I'd tend to buy at the place with
    the better service department, because it is ***GOING*** to need
    fixing, someday.

    RE: .47
    
    No snowblowers at Spag's!  Was there yesterday.  Maybe eventuall
    the hand held electric ones will show up but nothing with any real
    HP.
    
    Oslund Sales and Service
    Holden, MA
    
    			Ariens	8HP	1100  w/electric start
    			Ariens	7HP	 900  w/electric start
    			Ariens	5HP	 800  w/electric start
    			Toro	8HP	 900  electric start $50 more
    

    We bought a snowblower for my Dad about 5 years ago, it was a
    Simplicity.  A snowblower repair man in Hudson had recommended it
    to my brother because of the reliability and ease of repair.
    I don't remember how big it is, but one requirement was that it
    had to be able to handle the snow at the end of the driveway left
    by the plow, and does that without any problem.  
    
    My dad has not had any problem with the machine and loves it!  He
    goes crazy with it now, path for the oil man, path out to the shed
    in the woods, path all around the house, clears the patio, plus
    does the driveway which holds six cars easily!!!  This from a man
    that never wanted it in the first place and thought we were wasting
    our money!!
    
    Other than general maintenance, cleaning, oil etc. the machine has
    not required any service, what has been done has been done by my
    Dad.
    
    Hope this helps!
    

    Re a few notes back on service vs. price.  You can have it serviced
    anywhere you want, regardless of where you buy it.  Of course, warranty
    work must be done by an authorized dealer but even then you have
    a choice of authorized shops.  There's the theory that they will
    take better care of you if you buy it from them but I don't think
    that counts for much.  A good repair shop is a good repair shop.
    If it matters to them that you bought it there, then they may not
    be that good after all.  The reverse of this is that no matter how
    good a dealer may try to treat you, if their mechanics lack the
    expertise, you loose.
    
    I recommend that you buy the best unit you can get for the cheapest
    price and find a good repair shop for service.  If they are the
    same place, that's a plus.

    I've priced the toro snowblowers and the difference between the
    5 h.p. and the 8 h.p. is $200. 5 h.p. = $700. 8 h.p. = $900.   
    The salesman told me that the 5 h.p. would be adequate for my needs.
    My driveway is about 50 feet long with a slight incline. For the
    small difference in price I'm leaning toward the 8 h.p. which is
    a much more impressive machine. Would this be overkill?        
                                                                   
                                                         Thanks,   
                                                                 TP

    	Just as a side note to a previous reply.
    
    	Service should not be a factor when shopping for a BRAND name
    item. Any dealer who sells a particular brand MUST honor all warrenty
    work even if the blower was not purchased at that store. Dealers
    are paid for the warrenty labor work they do by the manufacturer and the
    parts supplied for free to them. I would hate to buy a car in
    California and live in Boston and have to ship it back for service.
    If someone told me to take my warrenty work to the place where I
    bought it then I would contact the company and I'm sure there francise
    aggrement would be mentioned !
    
    	-Steve-

    Just curious to see how people get these things home from the store.
    
    My impression was that these 8hp snowblowers are fairly large and
    heavy beasts.  Do you take it home in a box and put it together
    (like lawnmowers and tillers) or does the store assemble it and
    deliver it?  An assembled one would probably not fit in most peoples
    cars.  Doesn't an 8hp weigh about 300lbs?
    
    -al

    I have a 3.5 HP Toro.  I only got last January, but it hasn't had
    any problems clearing my driveway (and a spot on the lawn to park
    one of my other cars).  It is a single car driveway about 50 feet
    long.
    
    - Mark

    RE .53
    
    There is a big difference between 5 hp and 8 hp in some brands.
    For example, Ariens 5 hp weighs 160 lbs.; their 8 hp is 280 lbs.
    You should expect the dealer to set up (remove from packing crate,
    assemble, fill engine with oil, half tank of gas, check all
    functions and adjust if necessary) and deliver to your home at
    no additional cost.
    
    Toroes are currently selling for $725 for the Model 521 ( 5 hp,
    21 inch path) and 899 for their 8 hp.
    
    Ariens "standard" machine is available with 4, 5, or 7 hp and a
    24 inch path: $700, 800, 1000 (sometimes 900) respectively.  The
    "deluxe" Ariens is available with 8, 10, or 11.  $1100 for the 8.
    The basic difference is that the 8 has sturdier construction.
    I'm considering the 5 or 7, because I have NO intention of
    horsing 280 lbs of frozen metal around.
    
    pbm
    

    I don't need a snowblower, but I used to push my father's Ariens
    around. It's an 8 HP, and cuts through just about everything. I
    agree that chains are a must - if you hit some stubborn packed snow,
    the wheels will just slip without them, which means you work hard
    to keep it moving forward. The 8 HP isn't such a beast that it's
    not maneuverable - this one would fit through a normal door opening
    (just barely).       -Tom R.

    Both Toro & Ariens are having a special sale now.
    
    Toro 521 ( 5hp )  -  $ 725
    Ariens ST524 ( 5hp ) - $ 799.99 with free electric starter
    Ariens ST824 ( 8hp ) - $ 1099.99 with free electric starter
    
    Has anyone made some comparison between the Toro 521 and the Ariens
    ST524 ( both are 5hp machine ). Although Consumer Report a couple
    years ago did some test and gave high mark on the Toro 521, but
    it did not test the Ariens ST524. Therefore I can't make direct
    comparison between the two.
    
    I know that many notes in this notefile praised both machines. But
    has anyone used both machines that can make some comment on them
    ? Such as what are the good point on either model, and what are
    the bad things as well. Their sale price are so compatitive ( $725
    vs $800+free starter ) that I can't decide which one to buy.
    

    Re .57
    
    Just to complete the pricing picture, the 8 hp Toro 824 sells
    for $899 plus $100 for electric start = $999.  I can find little
    difference between the 5's, except that the Ariens has smaller
    wheels.  On the 8's, the Toro has a lockout that provides one-wheel
    drive for maneuverability with some loss of traction, while the
    Ariens provides a differential that maintains both wheels driven
    (according to my friendly salesperson).  Also on the 8's, Ariens
    has the conventional auger and wheel clutches on the handlebars,
    Toro has a deadman ignition cutout on the right handlebar.  There
    is also a new Toro model with a feature that moves the drive wheels
    to the rear in order to keep the nose of the machine down, a major
    problem with snowblowers.  That one seemed a bit too complex for
    me.  Ariens also offers a five year warranty on the basic guts,
    while Toro has two years.
    
    It's almost time to dust off the credit card...
    
    pbm
    

    A co-worker of mine is also interested in purchasing a snowblower
    of the 8hp magnitude.  Does anyone know if these dealers give
    volume discounts?  For example 8hp Ariens ($1099 each, 2 for $2000)?
    
    Anyone else out there interested in trying to get in on a bulk
    purchase, maybe 3 for $2700?
    
    -al

    I think you'll find that buying a snowblower is kinda like buying
    a car; the price is flexible.  At least it was at Sheppards Ariens
    in Townsend, MA.  By the way, their prices seemed better than any
    other local Ariens dealers incl. the ones in S. NH.
    
    Brian
    

    	If you find a place within 25-30 miles of Marlboro I'd be
    interested in an 8hp also. How about 4 for $3400?
    
    				...Dave           
    

    re: .59  2 persons in my group also looking for the 8hp, and I am
    looking for the 5hp. If you can get a good deal with multiple units,
    count us in.
    

    I had talked to the general manager of the True Value in Salem,
    NH. He said he could do something on the price for multiple units
    purchase, but wouldn't tell me the figure. He wants to know how
    many units first before he can make a discount. There is NO sale
    tax in NH, thats another $40 saving. Sung, I can give you the name
    of the manager if you want.
    

    Here's some info on the bulk purchase:
    
    Goodall's in Northboro, MA will give us a $50 per unit discount
    (for a 8hp Ariens ST824), cash or check only (you can't dust off
    the old credit card).
    
    Osgood's in Nashua, NH will not deliver any units to Mass because
    of sales tax problems.
    
    -al

    We finally ordered 6 units from Osgood's for a price of $999 for
    the Arien's ST824, $749 for the ST524.  Credit cards were accepted.
    
    -al

      I've got a fairly small driveway that I shoveled for years until
    a back injury put an end to that. Its still not really big enough
    to plow, as well as having no place to pile it anyway without the
    snowpile being in the way. So my thoughts ran to a snowblower.
    
      I've gotta admit that at the time. price was a major consideration.
    I had to stretch to get into the $600 range. For that price, you
    dont get a major machine, especially in the name brands! I don't
    much trust used equipment either. What to do?
    
      I stopped at Goodall's in Northboro one day. He had had a bulk
    lot of Flymos that had all been sold but one. The lot went out
    at $699, he sold me the last one for $600 even. Whats a Flymo,
    you might ask? Basicly a 5hp, two-stage, electric start with a
    Techumsha motor. 
    
      Having had a chance to use it last winter (didn't we all?), I
    found a few things. One is that chains are a necessity. Also, the
    Flymo has small wheels, never again! It starts and runs easily,
    and will throw far enough for me anyway. But its *heavy*, sometimes
    its almost easier to shovel.....but my main gripe is the height
    of the controls/handlebars. I never picked up on how much harder
    it is to hoss around that snowblower while having to stoop over
    just that little bit. (I'm 6'3", may not be a problem for others).
    
      So theres another thing to think about, can you stand comfortably
    vertical behind the machine? Believe me it makes a difference!
    
      Dana
    

    (Sounds like Flymo did as good a job on their snowblowers as they
    did on their lawnmowers.)

        FWIW, there was an Ariens ad in the Boston Globe today listing
        all the Ariens dealers, and pushing their "pre-season" sale
        prices.  They are offering "free electric start", a $100 rebate,
        and special financing for "qualified buyers" with payments
        as low as $20/month (if I remember correctly).
        
        I've got a 160' drive (gravel, pretty narrow), with a "L" at
        the end in front of the two-car garage, and I'm thinking quite
        seriously about getting an Ariens 824 and blowing it clear,
        as I suspect I'll wind up with a lot of the drive in the lawn
        at the side of the house if I have it plowed.  Plus, I can
        count on me to operate the blower if I'm home, but I can't
        be sure someone else will show up to plow it.  My wife thinks
        I'm crazy, of course...
        
        Tom

Re .-2 - I have a 10 year old Ariens 724. (Having looked at new
Ariens models recently, it's more like the current 8hp models, but
with a 7hp motor.) It has the solid axle, and I have no trouble
doing turns in the snow. I recommend going with the solid axle
(as I recall, the lock-out differential costs a good deal more),
because when you're plowing there's always snow or ice under the
wheels and you'll need the extra traction. (BTW, I don't have chains,
and don't particularly miss them.) The only time I'd recommend
getting a unit with the differential is if you're going to buy
summer use accessories, like the lawnmower head or the rotary
brush. (Do they still make these?) The solid axle on dry pavement
is definitely not fun.

    The differential is standard on the 824.  So if I get it and don't
    like it I can lock it.  On the other hand if the differential is
    worthless, I can save $200 by getting the Toro 824 model (less the
    electric start, else the difference is $100.) In last year's Deluxe 724
    series it was an option.  
    
    This year's 724 being based on the 524 doesn't offer the differential
    as an option.  As an aside I forgot to mention in my previous that the
    this year's standard series 724 has bigger wheels than the 524.
    
    john

    	Keep in mind, electric start usually means you have to plug
    it into an outlet, no battery !
    
    	-Steve-
    

    Yup, the 5 & 8hp Ariens that was just purchased by a bunch of us has to
    be plugged into a 110V outlet in order to use the starter.  The
    engine also does not have an alternator, so the light kit will
    cost an additional $90 to get both the light & alternator.
    
    The 10hp comes with the light kit by default.
    
    -al

    I just had the Ariens 824 model delivered last nite.  Of course
    I can't comment on its performance as I haven't used it yet, but
    it looks like a solid machine with easy to use features.  I bought
    it at Zwicker Power Equipment in Chelmsford (they are also in Bedford,
    MA), and they seem like a nice outfit to do business with.  Like
    all Ariens dealers they are offering a free electric starter with
    the unit.  I didn't want the electric starter, but I did want the
    light kit, and they switched one for the other at no charge.  If
    you want a similar arrangement, I'd recommend negotiating the electric
    starter for any other options you may want.
    
    Marc

    Does anyone have any advice/information on Toro's new "Power Shift"
    feature? They claim that it will prevent ride-up in drifts because
    it more than doubles the weight in the front of the machine. 
    
    Most of the advice in these notes point to a larger machine, and
    I'm torn between a Toro 521 (5Hp, 2 stage) and a 624 (6HP,2 stage
    plus this new "power shift"). My driveway is about 68 feet long,
    17 feet wide, with a bit of an incline up towards the garage. Most
    of the dealers I spoke to said both machines would get the job done.
    
    Also, has anyone seen a 521 for less than $699?
    Thanks for your help!
    mike
    

    I saw the 'power shift', I think it was on the tube - all it does
    is mechanically push the wheels back about a foot - I would tend
    to doubt that this helps a whole lot on hard packed snow, but I
    haven't used one... -Tom R.

    A friend of mine just bought one.  The dealer he got it from said
    that last winter he'd gotten the chance to try one out at the factory
    and that the difference in effectiveness was quite significant.
    (For what that's worth, which may not be much.)

    My friendly neighborhood dealer said the "power shift" feature was
    the result of a customer survey on snowblower usage which revealed
    the biggest complaint to be: the front end "riding up" in heavy
    drifts.  This feature shifts the center of gravity considerably
    rearward, under power.  In my opinion, it's another gimmick to
    get busted.  It's not on my shopping list.
              
    pbm
    

    You can check out the effect the "Power Shift" feature has on weight
    distribution quite easily.  I check one out.  With the wheels in the
    normal position the snow blower teeter-tootered very easily on it's
    axle, with the wheels in the rear position it took a tremendous effort
    to raise the front of the snow blower by pushing down on the handle
    bars.
    
    BTW - None of the people who raved about their Ariens 824 have a
    comment concerning the differential action? 
    
    john

    RE .75
    
    We have been researching Snow Blowers for a while and have decided
    on the Toro 521.  After calling several different dealerships the
    price seemed pretty consistent at $798. Calling Mass Buying power
    will get you 12% off of that.  Have you seen it for less?  We plan
    on buying ours in the next few weeks, so if you have seen it for
    less (than the $798 price) I'd really appreciate the name and location
    of the place.  
    
    thanks,
    
    Susan

    re .-1
    
    Susan:
    
    Most of the NH Toro dealers are asking $699 +$75 for electric start
    (some want $99 for electric start, but then they throw in 3 months
    free financing). The $699+75 is available at Hammar Hardware in
    Nashua. This is for the 521. The 624 power shift I mentioned is
    $949 on sale as well.
    
    Maybe we can get a group discount!
    
    mike

    Mike:
    
    Thanks for the info. Does the $699 include the $75 rebate that Toro
    is offering until Dec. 10 or is that before? The $75 rebate is off
    the top ,i.e., not a mail-in type rebate.  As for a group discount,
    I'm for saving money any where I can.
    
    Susan
    
    
    
    
    

    Susan:
    
    I decided to buy the 521. I asked them about a discount, and they
    are willing to do something. The first problem however is that they
    can't deliver to MASS. 
    
    I struck a deal at $699+$55 for the electric start. He said he would
    give you the same deal, and then he would give (free or discount?)
    us chains for the 521 as well. I live in Nashua, so I'll get free
    delivery.
    
    He didn't know about the $75 TORO rebate, but he said if it's a
    manufacturers rebate, and you could bring something in, he might
    be able to do something with that. Was this a MASS-only rebate?
    
    So, let me know if it's worth your while to buy it here, we'll
    both get a little something extra out of it!
    
    Any other takers, maybe we can drive a better bargain!!
    
    mike
    

    Mike:
    
    I'm not sure if the rebate is Mass only.  The dealer that I went
    to, and the others that I called, all said that Toro was sponsoring
    the offer and that the dealers were reimbursed directly from Toro.
    I will call to find out if it is available in NH and let you know.
    As for delivery, I'm not worried about it.  We have a truck and
    it would be worth our while to drive up.  Let me find out about
    the rebate, talk to my husband and father (he's buying one too)
    and I'll get back to you.
    
    Susan

    Greetings,
    
    I would be interested in a group pruchase of the Toro 521. I would
    also have to drive to N.H. to pick it up, no problem.
    
    my address is  usmrw7::khunt
    
    let me know if you can work something out. Thanks
    
    
    Kevin

    Picked mine out Saturday - Bolens 8Hp, Electric start and Chains
    $949. I also got a light and some extra shear pins tossed in because
    it took 'em a few minutes extra to get the machine I wanted ready
    for me that day. It's got a 3 year warrenty and the place I bought
    it services 'em. FYI Waynes Lawn and Garden - RT1 North Hampton
    NH. They will be on sale 'till he runs out or it snows which ever
    come first.
    
    /tb/
    
    

    >They will be on sale 'till he runs out or it snows which ever
    >come first.


    Guess that sale didn't last long  ;-)

    Rob
   

     I bought a 5HP Sears snowblower two weeks ago (wish I saw this
    file before then) and am still waiting for it to be recieved by
    their wharehouse. The price was $75 off and it seemed like a
    good deal, but now I have a feeling that I should cancel it, 
    since nothing good has been said about Sears in this file.
     
     Are there any satisfied users of Sears snowblowers out there ?
     
                                                             ,Jeff

    Ok, we bit the bullet (BEFORE the storm).  Ariens 8hp Model 824
    with electric start ("free") for $1099.  Add tire chains, $45.
    Add bag of shear pins, $5.  Let 'er come.
    
    Our original plan was to buy the 7hp, which has a much lighter frame.
    Found out the 8hp is actually easier to handle, although heavier,
    because it has a differential.  I am sure that there are other
    equivalent machines will will do the job as well or maybe better,
    for as much as, say, $200 less, but available service and parts was 
    a major consideration for us: this is the ONLY machine I ever want
    to have to buy.  My neighbor has 20-year-old 6hp Ariens (no ethnic
    suggestions here, but he IS a Scotsman) that runs like a champ with
    minimal maintenance.
    
    We have now bought a rider lawnmower and a snowblower from the
    same dealer (Dunn's Equipment, Haverhill Mass.) and will probably
    buy a portable generator in the future.  

    Before we go any further in deciding about purchasing
    a machine, we need to know where the machine can be
    stored.  We do not have a garage, outside opening to the
    cellar and the shed in on the other side of the house.
    
    Any suggestions...
    
    marie
    

    I used mine (Ariens, 8hp) this morning.   The electric start was the
    only way I got it started.   Well worth it (it was free, but
    tanstaafl). 

    By the way, the summer price for the Ariens 824 with free electric
    start was $999...   I plan on buying my lawn mower in January or
    February.

                I store my snowblower in the shed out back with all the
        other outside equipment. The shed is about 12 feet from the back
        door, and I shovel a path across the patio (concrete slab) to
        the shed (not really worrying about getting the snow off the
        patio) and open up a spot to start the blower outside the shed.
        I then blow a path down the side of the house to the driveway
        and proceed. That path is about 30 feet long across the lawn,
        and I have had no problems (just remember that you really don't
        have to clear it down to bare). I also do the patio while I'm at
        it. And a path out to the suet feeder hanging in one of the
        backyard trees (another 30 feet) for the birds.
                
                Unless you have a serious slope to traverse from back to
        front, I wouldn't worry about having to blow your way from back
        to front, it doesn't take that long. It also gives you one more
        way to get out of your house in an emergency (like a fire?).
                
                I got the idea in the Blizzard of '78 (I didn't have the
        shed then and the blower was in the garage) when I couldn't get
        out the garage door because the snow was over half way up it.
        Luckily, the blower fit beside the car, into the family room,
        and out the back door (which I had removed the glass from so
        that I could shovel enough away from it so I could open it!).
                
                /s/     Bob

    Someone a few back wanted to know about the differential on
    snowblowers.
    
    Well since I got to use my Ariens 8hp last Thursday
    I found the differential very useful.  The new big knobby snow
    tires have very good traction and I think it would have been very
    difficult to maneuver the machine in tight areas had it not been
    for the differential.
    
    I didn't have any problems with one of the tires breaking loose
    on slippery areas.
    
    -al

    I cast my vote for an ariens, we have had 5hp since 1967 and it
    still runs like a champ. In all these years I haven't spent over
    $40.00 for parts or service. If you keep-em lubed and the oil changed.
    They run+run.
    
    
    
    

    Storage concern: Mice!  I stored my snowblowers behind the shed
    last year (covered with plastic) and the mice found their way in
    behind the flywheel and chewed on the wiring.  When I had them repaired
    the technician told me it was a common occurance.  Now I store them
    closer to the house and occaisionally hold my cat to each unit and
    see if he shows any interest!  If anyone has additional suggestions
    on how to keep mice away I'd be interested.  I hear they also like
    snowmobile engines....
    
    Stan
    

    
    I don't know much about snowblowers, but when I went looking for
    lawnmowers I looked at the ariens, and found them very expensive.
    The Sears lawnmower I bought and the Ariens are both Tecumsah engines,
    and the Sears was about half the price if the Ariens.
    
    Mike

    Re .97 and mice:
    
    Some types of insulation on electric wiring is very attractive to
    mice and rats.  FYI, an inside story in DEC about the 11/23 Plus
    network installed at grain elevators in the Saskatchewan Wheat Pool
    sites in Canada is that the chief service problem is for rats
    eating the LA120 cabling.
    
    pbm
    

    Would putting mothballs in the shed keep the mice away?

    Re .100
    
    Maybe.  When they see what happened to the moths, they might
    get scared and take off.
    
    Actually, you'll probably have better luck with D-Con or traps.
    Be wary of D-Con if you have house pets or kids.  It doesn't care
    who it kills.
    
    pbm
    

    I have had similar problems with mice in my snowblower and shed. They
    built a huge nest of cloth, string, straw... in the transmision box. 
    
    It must look like a nice home to them, nice and secure, small access
    hole and nobody touches the thing all summer and fall. Cold weather
    rolls around and they move in. Now if I could only get them to operate
    it for me, I won't mind if they slept there. :-) 
    
    Charly

                   {mice/rats and snow machines}
    
    i've been warned of the same problem, but have not had the pleasure
    
    of any visitors. i have a shed in back (about 12x20) i keep packages
    
    of d-con around, and some new stuff on the market, (can't remember
    
    name of it) but it causes internal bleeding and finally[#$%@|}{.
    
    however i can't be certain how effective it is. 1st my neighbor
    
    has five cats, i'm sure the pickins are pretty good, 2nd. i have
    
    a dog, he's not your typical shepard. never know what your gonna
    
    find in his mouth.  anybody got a problem with hornets, bees,
    
    wasps, just call.  "have dog will travel"...
    
    
    jim.  
    
    

    re:.97>> mice definitely do not like "MOTH BALLS" or "MOTH XTALS".I
    use this treatment here in Colo. on my RV and other units that are
    stored outside from the house. So far (5 yrs) no problem w/mice
    anymore! Hope it works for you--- <DICK>

    
    RE: .103
    
    A word of warning - those rat poisons are dangerous to all 
    warm blooded animals (including humans).  We once caught our
    family dog eating some of that rat poison.  Fortunately, she
    had not eated too much when we caught her, and were able to 
    get her to spit up some.  Since you mention that you have a 
    dog, I would be careful about using these poisons.
    

    I was looking at Snowblowers this weekend.  OK, OK, I should have
    bought it in September, but I didn't.  Based on this note, I was
    looking for Ariens and Torro, about 7hp.
    
    I talked to the guy at P/D power equipment on Great Road in Littleton.
    He doesn't keep Ariens any more, only Snapper.  His reasoning is
    that their quality has gone down a lot in the last couple of years,
    and that they are now nothing but trouble for him to maintain. 
    Incidentally, has says the same about Lawn Boy lawn mowers, and
    has a bunch that he is trying to get rid of "the last Lawn Boys
    that he will ever sell".
    
    The Snapper 824 8hp looks nice and solid, but the price is going to be
    $1200 +, once I've added in the chains, lights and tax. Electric start
    is about $300 extra!  
    
    Can anyone confirm or deny his statements about Ariens and Toro?
    
    	Andrew
    
                                                                      

    My dealer sells both Ariens and Snapper.  He recommends Ariens for
    the homeowner - easy to operate, cheap to repair - and Snapper for
    the professional - fewer parts in the design, therefore more
    reliable.  However, when one of those "fewer" parts breaks, it's
    quite expensive to repair.
    
    For an example, flip the two forward and look at the underside of
    the crosspiece between the handles: Snapper has two cables, Ariens
    has multiple linkages pivoted on a welded stud.  Weighed against
    this must be the fact that Ariens are manufactured in Wisconsin,
    while Snapper is headquartered in Georgia and has its factory in
    Texas (yes, I know it snows in Texas).  I went with Ariens because 
    they've been making snowblowers since 1947.  They must have learned 
    something in that time.
    
    Also, your only choice is among blower chassis; all use the same
    engine: Tecumseh "Snow King" adapted for blower use (i.e.: they
    left off the air cleaner).
    
    pbm
    

    re 107.  to the best of my knowledge toro uses 3 engines, tecumseh,
    briggs and suzuki, (suzuki on their better 21" mowers)
    re 106, if i read you right, this fella wants $1500 for a 
    snapper 8hp w/cahins and elec start. at this price go buy a
    honda. you can get a honda 8hp, w/track drive for the same $$
    i was at jackson pwr. equip. about a month ago, and that was 
    his price. i own a toro 11hp. an 86 model. i was at the dealers
    a month ago, and noticed quite a change in their line.
    1st was the power shift feature, along with a significant change
    in their drive train, to note the use of some plastic parts.
    i'm not very pleased.  mine is of the old design. 
    if i were buying a blower, 1st honda, 2nd. bolens. you can 
    get an 8hp bolens, w/ light and canopy for $999. i'm not sure
    if the electric start is included, at jackson's.
    
    jim.

    re 108. who needs capital letters, paragraphs and grammar when
    you have a point to make :-)

    re .109:
    
    Hooray!!  I'm glad someone else finds this style of writing hard to
    read.

    awh, whats the matter fella's, a little over your head.
    
    Jim. mytorodoesnthveashiftkeyandspacbar
    
    

    	I drove by a Kawasaki dealer the other day and noticed a
    whole slew of snowblowers with the kawasaki name on them in the
    window. Has any one looked at these? They must be going after 
    Hondas market. What next Kawasaki lawn mowers?
    
    					...Dave
    

    
    
    	Sorry, but I made a mistake on reply 112 the type of snowblower
    was "NOT" Kawasaki but rather YAMAHA. They are big blue things.
    
    	sorry if anyone ran down to their Kawasaki dealer trying to
    buy one.
    
    					...Dave
    

    Two people in my neighborhood bought brand new Ariens this year.
    Neither one made it through the first snowfall.
    
    Maybe they do have a recent quality problem.

    The only problem with my Ariens has been the shear pins breaking
    because of gravel driveway.   Starting it without the electric starter
    would be impossible.   There are three new Ariens in the neighborhood,
    and so far noone has complained.

    I ordered 6 Ariens this past fall for some of you readers.  Mine's
    doing just fine and I love the electric start.
    
    Anybody else having problems?
    
    -al

    Our new (8hp) Ariens has worked just fine three times so far.  It
    has electric start, but it's so easy to start that I haven't bothered
    to use it.
    
    There is a big difference in wet vs dry snow.  The lastest (dry)
    storm meant that I could throw the stuff about 20 feet; the earlier,
    wet storms meant that I could only throw about 5 - 9 feet.
           
    Just curious: of those who had problems - what were they?
    
    pbm

    I have a question for those with the new 8hp Ariens:   When it is cold,
    can you start it manually?   Mine is stored in an outside shed, and I
    can't pull hard or fast enough to get it to even begin to start (yes, I
    choke and prime it.)  I just use the electric starter right away. Of
    course, after it's been running for a while, it starts OK, but when
    it's cold, it seems impossible.   Will this correct itself after
    the engine is broken in?

    RE: .119
    
    Is everything dis-engaged?  Cold starting is an art.  Choke and
    prime too much and it won't start either.  If you are storing it
    outside, I would suggest using starting fluid in the plug hole to
    start it the first time. Guess engines don't like to be cold either!

    Phil

    I store my 8hp Ariens in an unheated garage.  Note that Ariens
    specifies 5W-30 oil.  This routine works: choke full, throttle
    halfway between idle and wide open, ten shots of the priming bulb.
    Your mileage may differ.
    
    pbm
    

    I got my Ariens snowblower from my father.  He used and abused this
    machine for 15-20 years and it ran great.  I used it for a year
    and the auger doesn't turn as of last Monday.  I guess it got used
    to being abused!
    
    The engine runs fine, it goes forward and back, but when I engage
    the auger it doesn't turn.  Has anybody had this happen to them?
    If so, what was the problem?  Did it cost much to fix?  And was
    it something I could do?  Has anybody ever tried fixing one of these
    beasts and regretted it later?  Or should I just bring it to the
    dealer and pray for a reasonable bill...
    
    Phil

    re -.1
    
    Sounds like a broken shear pin, a bolt specifically design to break
    in case something (stick, rock, etc.) gets stuck in the auger. Don't
    know where it is located on your particular machine but a bag of
    5 costs about $5.
    
    Nick

    re .117	"ordered 6 Ariens this past fall for some of you readers."
    
    	I don't understand, was this a group purchase for discount deal
    that folks got together on ?   If so I missed it, might be interested
    if anyone runs another.

    	Reg
    

    re: .123
    
    Nope, not the shear pins.  The blower doesn't spin as well as both
    augers.  I used it a week before it died.  What drives the blower
    and auger, belts or gears?  Is there a clutch that could be gone?
    
    Phil

    Check for a broken belt. Many machines use a drive belt that can
    be engaged and dis-engaged to drive the blower and auger. If your
    machine is as old as you say it is, then there is a good chance
    that the belt has had it.
    
    Charly
    

    
    
    	I have a Snapper and the auger stopped turning the last snow
    storm. I broke out the book and took off the belt cover and found
    that the tension bar had come loose and would not put enough pressure
    on the belt to engage the auger.

    	-Steve-
    

    RE: .124
    
    Yes, I put a note here and in CONSUMERS to see if we could get a
    group of people together to purchase snowblowers and then go wheel
    and deal.  Ariens was running a pre-season special of $1099 w/electric
    start 8hp,24".  We managed to get Osgood's in Nashua to give us
    the units for $999 which is the rock bottom lowest price you'll
    ever find on Ariens.  I doubt you'll be able to get that same price
    especially in the middle of the season.
    
    -al

    
    re .128
    
    	Well, I'm probably able to get through this season OK and maybe
    a good many more, but if anyone else wants to do this again I could
    be interested at the right price.  Was 6 some critical volume figure ?

    I think the critical number was 4, but that depends on the
    wheeling and dealing.
    
    -al

    Last *summer* Ariens ran a special.   I got the 8hp 24" model for $999
    (with electric start) in August.   You just have to buy during the off
    season. 

Just to bring this note full circle I thought I would report back
on the status of my snowblowing attempts on my 500' dirt driveway.
Now that we have had just about all types of snowfall I can safely
say that a 33" 10hp snowblower will do the job.  Without raising it
on its skids I wasted 3 shear pins.  I raised it an inch and have
not had a problem.  I can clear a car path out in about 30-45 minutes.
I do not have to refuel.   I dont have to worry about the huge piles
of snow generated by plows.  I satisfy my personal need to "do it
myself".   In all I feel good about the decision to go with a 
snowblower (not necessarily the one I purchased though).
-Larry C.

    Suppose I should update mine as well.....I traded the Flymo 5hp
    I mentioned in an earlier reply. Got the Ariens 824 at Goodall's
    in Northboro.....he treated me OK, I feel. I got 1 1/2 seasons
    out of the Flymo, including last Jan. where it seemed to snow
    every other day. I had paid $600 even, he allowed me $500 towards
    the Ariens at $1099....not too awful bad. What can I say, the
    difference between the two machines is like the difference between
    a toy and the real thing! 
    
    The Ariens starts first pull every time (so far), eats drifts left
    by city plows like candy, and throws plenty far enough for me. (It
    makes a diffference, I can only throw in one direction due to a
    close neighbor on one side). One feature I have come to really like
    is the lockout differential. I leave it out most of the time, so
    it can freewheel on one side. This way, it turns on a dime. So much
    easier to use than a fixed rear axle type......at least for me where
    I don't have the luxury of making long straight passes.
    
    My brother-in-law bought a Bolens 8hp at Jackson's in Marlboro.
    I am also impressed with that machine...it looks perhaps more rugged
    than the Ariens....the front scoop is a real heavy construction
    and it shares the same motor as the Ariens or Toro. His was a super
    deal, came with electric start-chains-enclosure-light-heated grips
    all for $1099......he coulda got it for $999 if he started earlier.
    
    Now that I've done a few comparisons, I took a minute to look at
    the Sears machines the other night when I was in the store buying
    tools....its almost a joke in comparison! Their 8hp has puny wheels,
    a tiny discharge chute and a handlebar setup that looks suspiciously
    like my Flymo had....(the kind that works loose and never stays
    tight)....Couple that with the usual fears of future service/parts
    that comes with Sears equipment, its not worth owning in my book.
    Especially for the same price range as an Ariens or Toro.
    
    So I guess I can be considered a happy customer.
    
    Dana
    

	(Also posted in CONSUMER notes file)

Much as I hate the thought of winter, for those folks planning on buying a
snow blower next year here's some info on Ariens that may help.

During July and August, Ariens is offering the 8 HP, 24" cut model for
$999.  (At least through most of the dealers here in southern NH).  This
model is considered a DELUXE model. The only other 8 HP model they make is
commercial grade, and has a 26" cut for more $$$.

In doing some shopping on this model, I've found a great deal at Still's in
Manchester, NH as they are offering electric start at 1/2 price, $70.

Their total price for the blower with electric starter is $1069.
Setup/delivery is $20.  (Their setup/delivery includes a bag of shear pins
and can of oil).

Now, how do I know this is a good price?  An uncle of mine is an Ariens
dealer up in 'the great white north' of NH.  According to him, current cost
for this blower, through the end of August, is $941.  Cost of an electric
starter is $45.  So with total dealer cost being $986 for this unit, $1069
is a pretty good deal.  This is also supposed to be the best deal of the
season.  (Dealers cost of the blower goes to $991 on September 1st).

(I ordered mine from Still's yesterday - it was the 9th unit sold that
day).

  Mark

    When I bought mine a year ago, the $999 *included* electric start.

RE:< Note 1508.135 by ULTRA::PRIBORSKY "All things considered, I'd rather be rafting." >

	<When I bought mine a year ago, the $999 *included* electric start.

There was probably a price increase from last year's model to this year.

    
    I found a similar deal to Stills for Central Mass folks. Archie's in
    Shrewsbury (down the street from Spags) has the ST824 for $975, you
    pick up. The electric start is $75, so for $1050 + tax you get the
    whole shebang. I am still looking around at Bobcat and Bolens. ST824
    owners who bought last year, did you need chains? They went to better
    tires last year that supposedly don't need them.
    
    Thanks
    
    Chris
    

    My 4 year old ST824 doesn't have chains and it's worked great in all
    of the snowfalls we've had since I bought it.  I do have a fairly
    level driveway, though.  If you have a steep slope, the chains would
    keep you from having to wrestle with it.  It's a lot stronger (and
    heavier) than we are.
                                                    
    Bob

    
    Thanks. I bought the Bolens 824. I liked it a little better than
    the Ariens. I got it for the same price as the ST824, $1049 with
    electric start at Edgemere Power Equipment in Shrewsbury.
    
    CdH
    

    Arien quality has degraded over the past few years, there are better,
    less well known brands: Gilson, (aka Ford), Bolens, Bobcat, John
    Deer. 

    
    The Bobcat (now called Roto-Hoe, they were bought out by that
    rototiller company) was really my choice, in terms of construction.
    The fan impeller was made of 1/4" plate! However, it's design was
    behind the times. The auger and snout were small, the tires were
    smaller implement tires, and it didn't have an essential feature
    for me, the differential. Makes a big difference in my situation.
    I think if Roto-Hoe goes back to the drawing board and updates the
    design a little, but still retains it's high quality construction,
    they will have a superior product.
    
    CdH
    

    Re: .140
    
    How has Arien's quality declined recently?
    
    Is it in their selection of engines or their construction/design
    of their frame?  Their warranty is one of the strongest in the 
    industry (5 years).

    
    Ariens warranty is not really 5 years parts and labor, it's 2 years P&L
    and 3 years parts only (or is it the other way around?).
    
    I hope this doesn't turn into a p*ssing contest over who owns the best
    machine. We all have our allegiances.
    
    The commodity machine from the big 3 manufacturers I looked at (Ariens,
    Toro, and Bolens...my choices) is the 8 hp 24" cut. They sell more of
    that size machine in NE than any other sized machine. They all cost
    about the same price, $1K +/- a hundred or thereabouts. Most of them
    use the same 8hp Tecumseh engine. So what you are comparing are
    details. What is the chassis made of? What kind of bearings? Gearbox? 
    Where are the controls, and how easy is it to use them? How easy is it
    to access the maintenence areas? Does it use direct drive or a
    differential? Is it a lockout style or limited slip? Use these kind of
    things to help make your choice.
    
    Re: .140
    
    Can you justify this? Or was this salesman's rhetoric? One thing I
    noticed was that the Areins machine was made of lighter weight steel,
    using ribs for strength, than other machines. Some might see this as a 
    reduction in quality of construction. Others might view it as a benefit
    in reduced weight for ease of handling. It's all how you look at it. 
    Generalizations aren't really fair to everyone.
    
    CdH
    
    
    
    
    
    

    I repair snowblowers as a hobby, (usually sell for cost to family
    and friends). I've repaired approx. 30 over the past 3 years. I
    guess I've had a fair amount of experience as to what breaks on
    a snowblower and what features I like best! I like the older Ariens
    with their cast iron auger gear box and the simple friction disk
    drive system. The only weak point is the Tech. engine that tends
    to break it's rod after a period of time or abuse. (That's one of
    the reasons I like Gilson and Bobcat, they use a briggs.) 
    Arien now uses a lot of cast aluminum and plastic components. Also,
    the blower housing guage of metal has been reduced. Many snowblower
    vendors have sacrificed quality to reduce cost. These units won't
    last many years. The best bet for a homeowner that wants a machine
    to last: buy a commercial grade unit.
    
    Ross

    
    
    
      Does anyone out there ever use there blower on a dirt driveway?
    I'm sort of caught in a pickle, I have a simplicity 10 horse sno
    blower and my new house has a 300 ft dirt drive way. The machine
    is old but in perfect shape. Its rugged as anything and can dig
    through anything. I've never had any problems with it but my old
    house had a nice paved drive. Is it time to sell her and put a plow
    on my truck??
    
    Thanks for any info
    
    
    BAL

    Re: .145
    Depends on the dirt, somewhat.  I've used a snowblower on two dirt
    driveways with no problems at all.  After the first snow or
    two it all freezes solid and it's just like a paved surface
    anyway.  If you have a gravel/rock driveway with largish loose
    rocks and pebbles it might be another matter, but my driveways
    have been basically sand/dirt/clay/weeds, and I've had no problems.
    
    Your snowblower probably has a couple of metal skids on the front;
    lower them as  much as possible.  You'll leave about 1/2" to 1"
    or snow, but that's no problem either.  I think if you tried to
    skim right down to the dirt you might have trouble, but with the
    skids extended it shoul be fine.

    My dad has a rather long and wide dirt driveway that we've been
    snowblowing for years and have never had a problem.  The ground,
    by the time of the first snow, is usually so frozen and hard-packed,
    that it's virtually like it's paved.  The only problem is the first
    snow, when we're trying to do the edges.  We'll often get to close
    to the edge and tear up the lawn a little.

    
     I have a section of dirt driveway and like rep.146 said just lower
    the skid plates at either side of the auger housing and you shouldn't
    have any problems. I have mine about 3/8" down and they are easy
    to adjust. Just take a couple of pieces of wood about 1/4 to 3/8
    thick set the scraper blade on them and lower the skids to match
    the shims.
    
    
      -mike
       

    Has anyone had any experience with Bolen or Simplicity snowblowers?
    The bulk of this note has been favorable toward Toro and Ariens
    with very little said about other brands (except the negative
    remarks about Sears).

    I wouldn't recommend snowblowing a dirt driveway. The stones you
    pickup will eventually destroy the impeller (if 2 stage), dent the 
    blower housing, and wreck havoc with the auger.
    If you must snowblow a dirt driveway, drop the skids at leasta 1/2"
    and pull off the scrapper blade.

    re:149   Bolen makes a good snowblower, superior in quality to Arien.
    I haven't taken a good look at a new Simplicity unit, but Simplicity
    has been around for about 50 years and used to make good garden
    tractors.

There is one catch.  Things do indeed work fine if the driveway is frozen, but
last winter we had a real late snow (something like April I think) and the
ground below wasn't frozen.  My blower immediately sunk in and blew a fair
amount of gravel onto my lawn.

-mark

    
    
      Thanks for the replies so far on doing a dirt driveway. The replies
    are mixed and leaves me still undecided.
      I would like to point out, to whoever ask if simplicity is a
    good machine, that I think its great. Mine is a hand me down 1970
    model and is built like a tank. I can honestly say its the most
    rugged machine I've seen so far. I used to help my 80 yr old neighbor
    with his driveway. He insisted on using his brand new Ariens and
    that was a pretty nice machine. The big difference I noticed between
    the two was construction. Mine has solid steel handles and controls
    all the metal is twice as thick as the new ones and mine never failed
    to cut through wet heavy snow. I can't speak for the new simplicities
    but I know they cost a bundle.
    
    BAL

    
    Re: .149
    
    My best advice is to get out there and do some shopping. Everyone in
    the file is going to tell you their own machine works great. Any well
    built machine in good shape is going to move snow. You have to decide
    what features and details are important to you, and then go and look
    for yourself. Although all 2 stage snowblowers work on the same
    principal, all are built differently. After you see a few of them,
    you'll be able to decide which one meets your needs. Then make your
    best deal.
    
    CdH
    

    re:153  If you want to keep your blower for years to come, don't
    use it on a dirt driveway. I've seen too many examples of snowblowers
    used in this manner and they're usually quite worn out.
    Plowing a dirt driveway is hard on a truck also, but probably a
    preferable method.

    We're planning on having our driveway plowed, but we still want
    a snow blower for emergencies, walkways, etc.  I figure that a used
    model should be adequate for our needs.
    
    What should we look for in a used model?  Is it customary for a
    dealer to give a 1-year warranty, first snowfall warranty, or no
    warranty on a used blower?  Do snowblowers depreciate at the same
    rate as cars (lose 20% of the value when they go out the dealer's
    door), or faster or slower?  Would we be better off going to a dealer
    or to a private party who reconditions snowblowers?
    
    Thanks,
    
       Gary

    A good used snowblower will last many years. I think the older blowers
    were better constructed than what's available today. There's a few
    maintainence items that should be checked yearly: Only use the "proper"
    shear pins in the auger shaft. Many people replace these with mild
    steel bolts after hitting a rock. The next time they pick up an
    object in the blower, they usually break the piston rod instead
    of the bolt. (seen this happen many times)! Next, keep the oil clean.
    Keep the auger shaft well greased so it will slip and shear the
    shear pin. Drain the carburator fuel bowl every Spring. (I've rebuilt
    more carburators due to the build up a varnish from old contaminated
    fuel). Also adjust the side skids to give the scrapper blade a 1/8"
    clearance. It's less expensive to replace the skids than the scapper
    blade or worse yet have to weld new metal on the blower housing.
    (Again, something I've had to do a few times)! 
    By all means check out an older snowblower, they really see little
    use, (How many storms do we have in a season?), and have quite simple 
    mechanics.   
    A new blower probably depreciates 30-50% the first time it's started!
    Snowblowers actually see little use over the years unlike
    a tractor or mower that's used weekly.  
    
    Ross
    

    re: .155
    Although you may have seen snowblowers worn out by dirt driveways,
    from my experience I don't see it as a problem at all.  I've been
    using my blower on dirt driveways for 10 years.  I do NOT pick up
    any gravel to speak of.  I see no particular signs of wear
    that could be attributed to use on a dirt driveway.  As I mentioned
    previously, I haven't had really rocky/gravelly driveways and I
    can imagine one might have problems on a driveway with large loose
    rocky gravel, but plain dirt/sand, once it's frozen, is just like
    pavement.  I do keep the skids all the way down, as much clearance
    as possible rather than 1/8".

    RE:158   Sounds like your particular situation is different than
    most gravel driveways. The problems I've seen: grooves cut into
    the blower housing, impeller welds broken and metal torn, auger
    blades broken away from the frame, excessive wear in the axles and
    axle bearings (sometimes caused by running chains on hard surfaces),
    etc.
    There is also another consideration when blowing out a dirt driveway,
    safety! The impeller will throw a stone out a fairly high velocity!
    
    

re .153

I have a new  (last year) simplicity;  it IS a tank.  Having previously used an
Ariens, as was apprehensive (could  not see an Ariens for another $250 compared
to the Simpilcity sale price).  I prefer it to the Ariens.

As for stones, it manages to  send stones, pine cones, chunks of branches, golf
balls, squirrles (squirrel was upset) and clumps of frozen leaves flying across
the yard.  I am not sure what it takes to shear the pins, but it must be a lot.

Dave

    re .149
    
    I have a Bolens and this thing is a tank also. It'll throw small
    rocks or anything that gets in its way. It will also toss snow
    quite a distance which is good for throwing it over your fence into
    your neighbors yard. Last year when my neighbors were out there
    with their bag of shear pins, I was cleaning their driveways.
    
    Tim
    

    See .86
    
    The Bolens I bought last year did a fantastic job for me.
    I have a stone drive and NEVER broke a shear pin. I did break one
    in the road to my barn when I picked up a large stick. I also
    broke a shear pin on one of the drive wheels when I was digging
    out from some "slush".
    
    With light snow I can use 4th gear and be done in no time...I use
    2nd gear for most everything else...even the end of the drive.
    
    I never needed the electric start as I keep the machine in the garage.
    Full choke, 2-3 oushed on the primer, and 1 pull usually does the
    trick.
    
    Waynes has the 8hp now for about $950.
    
    /tb/
    
    

    

    I found this interesting note in the Canada notes about snowblowers.
    They seem to have found a way to take care of snow in a different
    way.
    
                    <<< TROU02::DUA0:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CANADA.NOTE;1 >>>
                  -< CANADA - The True North Strong and Free >-
================================================================================
Note 107.0                          SNOW BAGS                          5 replies
KAOM25::RUSHTON "Render the day oblivious"           26 lines   7-SEP-1988 16:40
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

With the recent nip of frost in the air in this part of the Ottawa Valley,
the thought of snow and what to do with it as it piles up in your driveway
made me realize that I have some work to do in order to get my snowblower
tuned-up.

The question I have for those of you out there who may have a similar machine
is:

	Where can I get a supply of snow bags?  I have a Mastercraft (Canadian
Tire) 8H.P., 2-stage blower with a Tecumseh 4-stroke engine.  Canadian Tire
says the bag manufacturer no longer supplies them with bags.  These are 20-litre
snow bags that are side-mounting NOT rear-mounting, and without the Velcro
strap that is used on the model 10-82065 snow bags.

	I need about 30 of these suckers (I have a long driveway).  Also,
have any of you heard of the disposable snow bags?  They sound great - at
least you could put the full bags out with the garbage on pick-up day
instead of driving the non-disposable full bags to some remote field and
emptying them.  The only drawback of using the disposable snow bags is that
they're only available in 5-litre sizes and with the expanse of driveway
I have, I'd be filling them up too quickly and probably need a whole
shit-wagon full of them just for one snow storm.

	Thanks in advance for any help.

Pat
================================================================================
Note 107.1                          SNOW BAGS                             1 of 5
WFOV11::KOEHLER "Back on U.S. soil"                  11 lines   8-SEP-1988 06:55
          -< I could just see our trashman picking up bagged snonow >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Wow, a snow blower with a bagger, what a great Idea. I have never
    heard of that offered down here in the States. (yes, we do get snow
    in Mass.,maybe not quite so much) 
    
    Are these bags vented like a lawn mower bag? I would also think
    they would be very heavy to move once they are full.
    
    You are kidding aren't you? I just blast the snow to each side of
    my 350' driveway.
    
    Jim
================================================================================
Note 107.2                          SNOW BAGS                             2 of 5
KAOM25::RICHARDSON "He who laughs best"              13 lines   8-SEP-1988 10:08
          -< I guess we'll have to get the shovel out for this one!! >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I don't think Pat is kidding.
    
    	I understand that the availability of SNOW BAGS has become quite
    a going concern here in Canada. It seems that more and more Canadians
    are deciding to mulch their snow because they find the bags to be
    a bit impracticle, if you get my drift......  So because of the
    drop in demand, the snow blower industry has decided to phase out
    the snow bags. Soon snow bagging will become a thing of the past.
    
    	Who ever heard of a vented snow bag?? Not too useful for those
    powdery snow falls.
    
    Glenn
================================================================================
Note 107.3                          SNOW BAGS                             3 of 5
KAOM25::TROTTIER                                     24 lines   8-SEP-1988 10:51
              -< Supply=Demand (Ask your dealer about SNOWBAGS) >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    
    
    I personally will miss the SNOWBAG feature on my Sear's 5 HP rear
    bagger model if bag become obsolete. I have save a considerable
    amount of money on my water bill in the summer by simply storing
    my bags of snow in the backyard till the summer. Then in the summer
    I use the bag full of water now, to water my lawn and garden.
    
    	I must point out to anyone wishing to do this,that you should
    not mix your driveway snow with the snowbank that is left by the
    snowplow at your entrance. I learned the hard way the first year
    I tried this and ended up with a pre-salted vegetables in the summer.
    I suppose there could be some possible markting value here, but
    the city would have to use a more refined salt. I any case, to be
    guaranteed a full supply of SNOWBAGS for the next 10 years, you
    can be sure that I will by up all store quatities in my area before
    I tell you were to get some. (SORRY but it's a DOG eat DOG world out
    here in SNOW COUNTRY.)
                                                       
    
    
    Dirty_Pierre_the_snowbagger_bandid
    
    
================================================================================
Note 107.4                          SNOW BAGS                             4 of 5
KAOM25::GAGNON "YEEEEeeeeeesssssss...."               9 lines   8-SEP-1988 10:58
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Re .0
    	I also have a Mastercraft 8HP Snow Blower.  I got the -BF model,
    	(for use in <0C weather).  
    
    	I've used both the disposable, (which by the way are also available
    	in the 20 litre size), and the reusable.  I've gone back to
    	the reusable.  The way I see it, the disposables are for sissies.
    
    	Peter
================================================================================
Note 107.5                          SNOW BAGS                             5 of 5
KAOA05::FRERE "Eric Frere @KAO DTN 621-2184"         32 lines   8-SEP-1988 11:23
                     -< Recycling is the only way to go. >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Where have you guys been this past year??  Haven't you heard about
    the recycling program that is offered for the city of Ottawa and
    Nepean (unfortunetely Kanata doesn't have it yet)?  The city will
    supply to you a large blue container (larger than the one you presently
    use for paper and glass recycling) that you can use for your snow.

    During the regular trash pickup, a special truck will pick up your snow
    and take it to a local ski resort.  The ski resorts, who are becoming
    more enviromental-oriented are buying this snow instead of investing
    into larger artificial snow-making equipment.  Mt. Pakenham and
    Calabogie Peaks are currently doing this.  Vorlage, on the Quebec side,
    is considering it but will have to resolve the issue of transporting
    snow across interprovincial borders for commercial use.  

    Canadian Tire has developed an attachment that will fit your
    Mastercraft snowblower that will pack the snow into a bail and `throw'
    it through the same opening as where you would put the snow bag.  The
    containers are designed to hold up to 3 bails each.  For your driveway
    (.0), I would suggest that you get a few containers.

    This is a much more reasonable alternative to your snow bags since
    it is cheaper in the long run (only need to but the attachment) and you
    will be able to sleep nights knowing that your snow is not being wasted
    away in a snow dump and is instead greatly improving the skiing
    conditions in the area.

    Eric

    P.S. The only disadvantage to this recycling system is that you will
    have to separate the `clean' snow from the yellow snow.  They don't
    recycle yellow snow.  Also, you will have to make sure you don't
    salt your drive or walkway.
================================================================================
Note 107.6                          SNOW BAGS                             6 of 6
KAOM25::RUSHTON "Render the day oblivious"           28 lines   8-SEP-1988 11:29
                                 -< HAY BAGS? >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for the replies fellas, but I still need a supplier.  One
suggestion was that I could use a HAY BAG which is a viable solution.
A word of explanation is probably required here about HAY BAGS:

	You have probably noted that increasingly farmers are using
round bales now instead of the older rectangular bales (which require
barns in which to store them).  The round bales are stored outside
at point-of-use, and should be protected from the elements and the
damp ground.  Thus, the introduction of the HAY BAG.  Each bag is
made of 5 mil white polyethylene, about 15 metres in length and
about 1 metre in diameter.  The farmer just rolls each round bale
into the bag (placed lengthwise on the ground) until it is full.

	To me this is an alternative to the standard SNOW BAG, but
it may be my only solution, and it has the following advantages:

	It can store more snow without moving and removing the bag, the
bag could be placed on the property for use in the spring and summer
for lawn watering and to fill my swimming pool, it's white, and because
of it's 5 mil thickness it could also be used as a condom for moderately
large leviathons (or normal sized Canadians).

	But seriously, people of middle earth, where are the suppliers?

Still holding the bag,

Pat

    .163:
    
    I think that I saw them at my favorite purveyor of building materials,
    across the aisle from the remote controls for whole-house turntables.
    
    Dick

    re: .164
    
      Not anymore.  They moved them next to the air shredders.

    -Jim

There's a snowblower note at 1508.  But since that note contains 130 replies, 
and since this question is on a specific aspect of snoblowers, I'm leaving it 
as a separate note.

Please keep discussion in this note on the subject of tracks vs. wheels.

Paul

    Regarding the tracks, is there a clutch for each track or does one
    clutch run both?  If only one runs both, then I'd definitely prefer
    the wheels, since working with the tracks would make it hard to
    turn.  Even if there is a clutch for each track, then more moving
    parts there may be to maintain.  Maybe I'm too conservative, but
    I'd rather the wheels.  One thing I did find about wheels is that
    the bigger, then the better.  But, the mechanisms for the wheels
    on a snowblower are important too.  I used to have a 7 hp. Sears
    that had pins to remove from the wheels if I wanted to free up a
    wheel from the drive shaft.  The trouble was what to do with the
    pin I'd remove so I would'nt loose it.  I did not want to put a 
    rusty or greasy pin in my pockets.  And if I left the pins in, then
    this machine was hard to turn because both wheels are locked onto
    the same axle or shaft.  I now have a 8 hp. Arien that have a system
    where each wheel can roll forward freely for ease of turning.  And
    if I want to free up a wheel from the drive, the is a button on
    the wheel that is spring loaded; just lift and turn.  Nice because
    there is no need to hang onto any parts; my hands are free to
    run the controls.                       
    
    One of the advantages of tracks that I can see would be less slippage
    over icy surfaces though.
    

    I have an Ariens with tires and chains.  I don't have any experience
    with tracks but I imagine that you would pay alot more for a tracked
    model. Tires with chains work great.  Small tires (5 hp models) really
    need chains.  I don't know about large tires.  I think a set of chains
    will run you about $20. 

    I tried my snow blower without chains and had to stop in the middle
    of the job and run down to pick up a set of chains.  

       re: track vs wheel
       
       The only concern I'd have is the amount of power, if any, the
       track drive system could/would soak up. Personally, I'd rather
       have the maximum power available to throw snow, not move the
       machine. Also, there seems to be more to freeze up or fail in
       any other way... the fewer the parts, the better, as I see it.


       re: klik pin

       My Sears machine has enough 'play' in the pinned wheel to allow
       it to be moved away from the axle hole and the pin replaced (it
       only needs a little more than 1/8" travel). No chance of losing
       the pin or having to stash the greasy thing in your pocket.

    Cal,
    
    Now's the time to dig out that old tank you used to hoard gas back
    in the mid-'70's!
    
    If'n it's too far back in the cellar, maybe just a few surplus gerry
    cans will substitute.
    
    Bill

    
    Don't know if this should go under this topic or a new one should
    be started but here goes. Does anyone have any experiences good
    bad or otherwise with snowthrowers. You know, the cheaper power
    shovel type things that TORO has. Are they any good? Have a 120'
    driveway and can't afford a new full size job. Just curious if
    they are worth buying or if I would be better off with a used 
    full size....
    
    
    
    	???
    	leo
    

re .169, Snowthrowers

Looking in 1111.85, I found topic 655, entitled "Snow Shovel vs Snow
Blower".  I don't know whether a snow shovel is the same thing as a
snowthrower, but perhaps you'd find useful information there. 

    I've used the bottom-of-the-line electric Toro power shovel.  It
    was perfect for what we had at the time -- a driveway that was barely
    big enough for the two compact cars we parked there, plus about
    five feet of walkway.  Anything bigger would not have fit between
    the cars and the lawn or between the cars and the neighbor's retaining
    wall.  Being light enough to pick up and carry was a necessity.
    
    The shovel could toss light powdery snow an amazing six to ten feet,
    which was adequate for us.  More importantly, it could toss the snow
    three or four feet into the air.  This was crucial for us, since the
    lawn rose steeply from the driveway.  We couldn't have gotten the snow
    onto the lawn by hand, which would have eventually clogged up our
    driveway if we didn't have the power shovel.  The power shovel could
    handle about 3-4 inches of snow.  Anything higher required a second
    pass, with the first pass most tiring, since the shovel had to be held
    up.  The power shovel didn't do much with slush; we forced that stuff
    into the street by hand, so it could melt elsewhere. 
    
    Now that I've sung the praises of the power shovel, let me give the
    other side.  We wouldn't dream of relying on it for the driveway at our
    new house.  Our driveway is two car, probably around 60-70 feet.  It's
    absurd to make two passes over that with a shovel that is maybe 15-20
    inches wide and must be supported.  Even a bigger version of the same
    design wouldn't be adequate; there's just too much area.  If the
    120' driveway mentioned in 169 is one car, then we're talking about
    similar areas.
    
    Instead, we're hunting around for a good used model at a good price,
    preferably an Ariens or a Toro between 5-10 years old.  If we can't
    find one, we'll cough up the money for a new two-stage model.  No way
    would we buy a one stage model.  (We'll keep the one we have, for
    emergencies.) 
    
       Gary
    
    PS, on Terminology.  One of the older notes suggests that the
    terminlogy is significant, with snow blowers being bigger and snow
    throwers being smaller.  I don't believe it.  Among other things,
    Ariens uses the trademarked name Snow-Thro (or some such spelling) for
    their big machines.  The only precise terminology is one-stage versus
    two-stage, and power shovel versus {snowthrower/snowblower} versus
    plow. 

< Note 1508.169 by VINO::LLAVIN >
                          -< How about Snowthrowers? >-
>>>You know, the cheaper power shovel type things that TORO has.

>>>Have a 120' driveway and can't afford a new full size job.
    	???
    	leo
    
First things first... How is your back? How much is a wrenched
back worth to you?

I have a bad back from a ski injury 18 years ago; so I speak from
a biased vantage.

The powered shovel is good for folks with town houses fronting
the street. Toro makes a single stage auger type snow thrower for
about $300. They come gas or electric.

Beware of the paddle type, they don't work as well as the auger
type; some augers have a rubber/plastic edge that helps pull it
along. Ariens make a ST2+2 that's a two stage auger type for
about $500.

cal

    Does anyone know when Techumseh started using electronic ingnition
    systems. I just got an older Ariens 8hp. The handbook for the engine
    has a rev. date of 1977 on it so it has to be at least that new.
    I'm just curious if I have to worry about the points and all the
    rest of that stuff.
    
    
    TPV
    

    re. .175
    
    I don't know what year they started making engines with electronic
    ignitions.  It would seem to me that the manual should show what
    it's got.  If not, then when removing the flywheel from the engine,
    will tell the story.  But, even if it has points and condensor,
    the parts are very easy to get, not expensive, and easy to replace.
    I did a tune up to a 7 hp. Techumseh engine, model year 1977, which
    was a Sears.  The tune-up kit came with points, condenser, and spark
    plug, and I purchased it from a Ariens dealer.  There were instructions
    on the back of the package detailing the point and spark plug gap 
    adjustments.  After doing the tune-up, I had no more trouble starting
    it.  But, unfortunately, last winter it threw the piston rod and
    I now own a new 8 hp. Ariens.  I don't know why that 77 engine did
    that, because I never over-reved it and always kept fresh oil in
    it.  Maybe it was just age.
    
    

    I am planning on buying a Toro 824 (8 hp, 24" cut).  Does anybody
    out there have experience with this machine?  Is the electric starter
    worth the $50? (I have a friend with an 11hp Toro who said he only
    used it once to se if it worked.  He keeps his blower in an unheated
    shed all year round). Does anybody know anything about Toro's "Sno'
    Risk 2 year double protection? how about their financing programs?
    The price of the machine is $900 (preseason price, good to 10/15),
    seems to be fixed in NH.
    
    For those interested in Ariens machines, they're offering a 0% down,
    0% interest financing program- 12 equal payments.  (I personally
    found the Ariens 8hp too pricey for me- ~$1270)  Thanks for your
    input.

< Note 1508.178 by KELVIN::RPACHECO "RON" >
                          -< Looking for free advice >-

>>> Is the electric starter
    worth the $50? (I have a friend with an 11hp Toro who said he only
    used it once to se if it worked.

Ron,

The electric starter are for the folks who keep the snow blower
in the unheated shed. The winterized B&S engine starts on the
first pull and is easy enough for my 108# spouse to start. $50
isn't too expensive, however, an option.

All it is is a 110V motor that spins the flywheel; this means you
have to plug it in to take advantage of it. Once it's started,
the pull starter will start it on the first pull since it's up to
temperature anyway. It takes quite a bit to stall the 8HP Briggs
& Stratton; they use a tracked Honda and a wheeled Toro here in
CXO 3 and the maintenance folks says that the engine will idle
when you release the clutch.

My other snow blower was a cheapie in that the mechanism wasn't
clutch operated so the when you let go of the "dead person" bar,
you killed the engine. 

cal hoe

    Re:.179
    
    I agree with .179; that $50 is not a bad price for the 110V A.C.
    starter.  You should note that the Toro 824 is NOT covered under
    the Toro Sno-Risk plan.  I think the way this plan works is that
    it compares the average snow fall in your area for the next TWO
    years and compares that to the average snow fall for the previous
    two years.  Toro will refund part or all of your purchase price
    depending on this comparison.  However, it appears you must wait
    at least two years before you can determine whether you are entitled
    to any refund. 

    I would *suspect* that a tracked system would offer some advantage
    if you have very uneven or steep terrain. Maybe the tracks would
    do less wear and tear on your driveway than chains on wheels.
    	I used to use an Ariens with chained wheels on a steep and uneven
    driveway when I lived in Harvard. I really don't have any complaints
    about traction. Since traction is dependent on friction, and friction
    is a factor of contact area times weight of the machine, it is not
    unreasonable to assume that two machines of equal weight will have
    the same traction regardless of wether tracked or wheeled. (This
    ignores the influence of treads/chains etc...)
    	I would recommend staying with the tried and true *wheels*.
    
    	BTW I just acquired a 15 year old Sno Bird, 5hp wheeled snow
    blower for $95. By all appearances it was babied all its life and
    serviced *every* year wether it needed it or not! Purrs like a kitten.
    I (almost) can't wait for the first snow storm to try it out! ;-)
    
    	Mark
    

    This is purely speculation, having never used a tracked snowblower,
    but...
    
    I'd vote for wheels.  .5 quotes the idealized "laboratory" version 
    of the law of friction, which basically states that friction is
    a function of (area X weight).  That turns out to be a *very*
    crude approximation of real world friction.  There are numerous 
    other factors that go into it.
    Based on experience with snow tires on vehicles, it seems that
    maximum traction is achieved on snow and ice with a small contact
    area; large, wide snow tires don't work as well as narrow, thin
    snow tires.  Therefore, I'd vote for wheels and chains, not a
    track.  (Your experiences may differ!)

    I tried the tracked version once.  For some reason (don't know why)
    it couldn't get out of its own way; I ended up doing an incredible
    amount of pushing and shoving to get anything to work.  I suspect
    that tracks need a MUCH heavier snowblower to do any good.
    
    P. S. - the tracked version I used is (except for the tracks) basically
    identical to the wheeled version I DO own.  I've had no problems
    with the wheeled version.
    
    Can you spell MARKETING or PROFIT?  The tracked version was offered
    to me for an extra $50.00.

    Like most folks, I own a wheeled snowblower, an 8-hp Ariens.  My
    experience in actual operation has been that I do a considerable
    amount of turning, tugging, pulling, and general horsing around.
    I would imagine this to be rather difficult with tracks.
    
    pbm
    

    I also wonder about maintenance. I can replace the wheels on my
    snowblower fairly easily. I'd hate to try to replace tracks. Remember
    *more moving parts*! If the track guides wear you may invent some
    new cuss words as you struggle to remount them in a blizzard.
    
    <warning slight rat hole ahead>
    	Remember the "Flymo"? A wheeless lawnmower, advertised as being
    light and maneuverable. It "flew" on a cushon of air created by
    the spinning of the blade. It was light and maneuverable too! Only
    problem was the cushon of air flattened the grass down so that it
    couldn't be cut. 
    	MORAL: Don't buy anything without wheels!
    
    	Mark
    

    Re. .6 and others
    	First....tracks give better traction....this is why they are
    used on winter snow vehicles including the snow-cats used for ski-slope
    grooming.  (Snow tires are narrow so that they will cut through
    the snow more and provide more contact area with the pavement, thus
    providing better traction---wide tires ride on top of the snow
    providing no contact with the pavement.)
    	One of the main issues with tracks is how they turn around and
    handle in tight places....wheels tend to be easier to deal with.
    Ric

>< Note 2624.10 by 29861::R_RAYMOND "Living above the treeline" >
>                           -< Tracks give traction >-
>
>    	First....tracks give better traction....this is why they are
>    used on winter snow vehicles including the snow-cats...
      
      I  think the primary reason for using tracks on snow-cats etc.  is
      for floatation, not traction.  This  is  not  an  issue  for  snow
      blowers which run on the ground/pavement that they just cleared.
      
      I woudl think that for virtually all situations the manuverability
      superiority of wheels would make them the choice.

      Tracks are used on vehicles that must ride on *top* of the snow.
    In that case the track is used to spread the vehicle weight so that
    it *can* ride on top of the snow and to provide many edges to grip
    a surface that has little substance. 
      Snowblowers *remove* the snow BEFORE the tires (or tracks) get
    there, leaving at most 1/4 to 1/2" of it behind. Under these
    conditions what you have is a slippery hard surface that needs a
    lot of pressure and/or something like chains to get a bite on what's
    underneath. Tracks just don't provide this kind of traction. Plus it's
    been noted in every test I've read about snowblowers with tracks, that
    they're best on long, straight driveways where turning is kept to a
    minimum - they're just harder to turn. Some of the track *always* must
    drag across the surface to make a turn.
      I've used snowblowers (with wheels) all my life, and I have yet
    to have any problem with them. I think the biggest feature of one
    with tracks is just marketing.
    
    				    	Kenny

    How good are self-propelled snowblowers at going up inclines?  We
    have an incline of about 3.5 feet vertical over about 6 feet
    horizontal.  This is on grass, going from the back basement door
    to the front of the house.
    
    The reason I ask is that we're still shopping for either a used or new
    one.  I'm willing to keep a used one in front of the house, but I'm
    less willing to keep a brand new one in full view.  I prefer to keep a
    new one locked up in the basement, but I'm concerned that we won't be
    able to get it to the front of the house.  The other alternative for us
    is to build a disposable storage shed in front of the house out of some
    cheap plywood. 
    
       Gary

    re. .181
    
    	My 8 hp. Arien can definitely climb it, but I'd be very concerned
    about losing traction over any ice and snow it will have to go over.
    If it slides, you could lose control and get hurt.  In addition,
    that kind of climbing will put added strain and wear on the friction
    drive system.  So, maintenance in replacing the rubber wheel will
    be more often.  I know of no paved driveways that are that steep
    either.  Anyhow, I would not want to try driving my snowthrower
    up or down such an incline.
    
    

    I suspect you'd need chains to have any hope on that kind of
    incline, if you have wheels.  No idea how tracks would do.
    I use my 7hp Toro to do what passes for my front walk (i.e. the
    strip of lawn between the front steps and the driveway), and
    that's got a pretty significant slope to it.  Even with chains,
    I sometimes have a hard time getting up that hill.  I wouldn't
    worry about straining the snowblower though ; the wheels will spin long
    before you break anything.

    OK.  We'll plan on storing it in front of the house.
    
    We looked at a used Simplicity last night.  It seemed to be the
    best of the bunch available from a guy who both repairs small engines
    for people and sells used snow blowers and lawn mowers.
    
    I was struck by three parts of the design.  The second stage, which
    actually blows the snow, is positioned perpendicular to the way
    most blowers have them positioned.  Most blowers have the second
    stage rotating perpendicular to the auger, while this model had
    the second stage rotating along an axis that is parallel to the
    auger's axis.  I wonder whether this makes a difference?
    
    Second, instead of having a gear drive in the center of auger,
    to convert the direction of the rotation, this model uses a chain
    drive, in a compartment on the side of the housing.  As a result,
    there are no visible shear bolts.  The guy claimed that the shear
    pins would be under the housing with the chain, but wasn't sure.
    I thought this a little strange, from someone who repairs this machines
    for a living.  It also seems like more work and less convenience,
    in the highly likely event that the shear bolt breaks.  Does anyone
    know for sure?
    
    Finally, I got the impression that the drive was engaged via a belt,
    not a clutch.  Is this normal, or was I misunderstanding the
    explanation?
    
    At $400 for an 8HP machine about 13 years old, it seems like a good
    deal.  The other options were a much older 6hp Ariens, as well as
    a Sears, a Wards, and an AMF.  We never even considered the last
    three.
    
       Gary

       Gary

	I shopped around for a self propelled snow blower the
last two years. Finally settled on a new unit with 5 HP engine.
What convinced me was that I wanted an engine whose engine
controls would not freeze up. I had a 4 HP single stage snow
thrower the last few years and the problem was the fine snow that
gets blown back, freezes up around the throttle control.

	The winterized Tecumseh or Briggs & Stratton engines has
a shroud over the carb that is heated by the muffler to keep the
card controls warm. The Tecumseh Snow King engine has a
compression release that allows the engine to start on the second
pull in most cases. I have the same features on my lawn mower
(compression release, that is) and it is 100% easier to start
than my LATE Lawn-Boy.

cal hoe

< Note 1508.185 by CLOSUS::HOE "Sammy's daddy; er, Samuel's father" >
             -< newer engines are easier to start when it's cold >-




>card controls warm. The Tecumseh Snow King engine has a
>compression release that allows the engine to start on the second
>pull in most cases. I have the same features on my lawn mower
>(compression release, that is) and it is 100% easier to start
>than my LATE Lawn-Boy.
>
>cal hoe

Compression release engines won't last as long! Tend to burn valves.

Compression release engines won't last as long! Tend to burn valves.
                                                        ^^^^^^^^^^^

Why? I tend to think that getting the job done might be worth the
trade off.

cal

>< Note 1508.187 by CLOSUS::HOE "Sammy's daddy; er, Samuel's father" >
>                 -< Why does compression release burn valves? >-
>
>Compression release engines won't last as long! Tend to burn valves.
>                                                        ^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>Why? I tend to think that getting the job done might be worth the
>trade off.
>
>cal

I was talking with a guy that makes his living doing small engine repair and
he told me the new compression release engines were great for business, burn
exhaust valves every few years. Evidently, (didn't have a chance to look at my
small engine books last night) the exhaust valve is kept partially open to
limit compression during starting. This subjects the valve seating area to
increased heat.

Ross

RE .188

I looked up the compression release in the Tecumseh and the B&G
engines. The B&G uses a cam to open up the exhaust valve while
the tecumseh uses a elongated lobe that delays the exhaust valve
from closing so that 50% of the starting effort is reduced. Both
repair manuals says that harder automotive valves are used since
the use of unleaded gas has allowed for the auto-compression
release engines from getting premature engine failures.

Different item; has any one dealt with a MTD Products snow
blowers? I saw one at Montegomery Wards and it comes with
electric starter for the same price as the Sears one (both
5HP/23" sweep).

cal

>from closing so that 50% of the starting effort is reduced. Both
>repair manuals says that harder automotive valves are used since
>the use of unleaded gas has allowed for the auto-compression
>release engines from getting premature engine failures.

Unfortunately, from what I've heard, you'll be looking towards doing a valve
job in a few years. I also believe that "all" small engines use a "hard" valve
so they can survive on unleaded.

Ross

>Different item; has any one dealt with a MTD Products snow
>blowers? I saw one at Montegomery Wards and it comes with
>electric starter for the same price as the Sears one (both
>5HP/23" sweep).
>
>cal

Cal, the problem with Sears and some other retail store brand snowblowers is
they try and cut corners to keep the price attractive. Even though
most use a Tech. Snow King engine, the engines are usually different from say
an Arien's. Quite often the carb. will be a sealed unit that will have to be
replaced when it gets gummed up, can't rebuild. Controls for the engine are
usually quite cheap also. Metal guage on the blower housing is light, auger
gears are smaller, impeller is lighter, chute controls are cheap and short 
lived, etc. These snowblowers are designed to give maybe 6 years service, then
get thrown away. If you're mechanical, why not by an older machine that can be
kept in service for many years? 

Ross

>    Both repair manuals says that harder automotive valves are used since
>    the use of unleaded gas has allowed for the auto-compression release
>    engines from getting premature engine failures. 
 
    Would using leaded gas in the engine help the situation? I've heard
    that valve seating of some engines is helped by using leaded gas
    during the break-in period.
    
    

>>    Would using leaded gas in the engine help the situation?
    
  Yes, but both my cars uses unleaded so I just pump the gas out
of my cars whenever I need gas, that way, I don't have to store
the gas. I have one of those Black & Decker Jack-Rabbit pumps to
pump the gas.

cal  

     It might if there was really enough lead in the gas to matter.
    10 Years ago there was about 10 grams of lead(compound) in each
    gallon of gas; now it's about .5 .(that's the max allowed)
    
    					Kenny

	re: leaded gasoline, .-1

       Add to that the fact that most engine makers are putting stellite
       valve seats and harded exhaust valves in makes the leaded fuel
       issue not an issue any longer. Of course if you don't have a
       newer (past few years) machine, then when it comes time to do a
       valve job, put the hardened ones in, your worries are over.

       Just as an aside, I've a 30+year old mower that's been using
       unleaded for the past number of years and it's still running
       strong as ever. My guess is that all this talk about valve
       longevity is just that...talk. From my point of view and
       experience with this ol' mower is that the valve life isn't
       even on my 'worry-list'. Of course, this is my $.02   ;-)

    .11 and .12 bring up another point, if the tracks "float' on the
    snow, wouldn't this mean that it would not clean or scrape as neatly
    as the wheeled machine.  I would think that you would constantly
    be liftling on the handles to keep the scraper close to the surface.
    
    As far as the "traction" issue is concerned, the only analogy that
    comes to mind is that tracks are like using boards to cross snow
    or mud, you set down one board, walk on it, pick up the one behind
    and set it down in front, etc. ect.  it isn't like a wheel where
    it actually pushes against the ground or snow.  But it still would
    have a tendancy to "float" I would guess.
    
    I'm keeping my 10yr old Toror with wheels.

I hope I don't get laughed outa' here but...

Anybody heard of, or have an opinion on, get this, a DYNAMARK (by Noma) 
snowblower?  It's at BJ's, it's got a Tecumseh 8hp on it and doesn't seem
too flimsy. The reason it caught my interest is that I've noticed $100 per
hp seems to be a good deal when it comes to snowblowers.  This 8hp is $689.
A good brand name would cost a lot more so I figured if it lasts 1/2 as
long but costs 1/2 as much I could buy 2. :^)

I've extracted the notes here so I can find out what's important and go
back to see how it stands up against these guidlines.  I'll reply back with 
a report.

Craig

    I can't speak for the snowblower, but the Dynamark lawn tractor
    is not too bad.  We have one at the apple orchard my mother has.
     It gets used mainly for the lawn around the house and for some
    of the newer parts of the orchard with the smaller trees.  So far,
    it seems to be holding up ok.  I suspect that like most things,
    it will perform as well as it is maintained.  If the oil is changed
    on a regular basis, and the machine is not abused, it should last
    a reasonable period of time.  We have had the tractor for 1.5 summers
    so far.
    
    Ed..
    

    Re: .196
    
      If it's at B.J.'s, make sure you know who is going to service
    it if/when you do have a problem.  If it's not going to be local
    for you, you will need to consider whether it is worth it at any
    cost. I can't speak for snowblowers myself, I'm still using low-tech
    shovels.
    
    -Jim

Well, it doesn't seem that there's too much to say for Dynamark.  But I'm 
still looking for a snowblower and I'll respond to my note.

On the merits of Dynamark: although reletively unknown it seems to be 
comparable to others in the basics.  I'm not claiming it's as rugged or 
long lived but it looks ok.  I'm gonna' hold out for a used ariens or bear 
cat or bolens or toro or ...

It didn't have electric start but any techcumseh engine can take one I 
assume.  Lockout differential sounds fancy but the Dynamark had cotter keys 
you can pull from the axle just like all the rest.  Auger and drive clutch 
is std on everything as far as I can tell.  Controls on the handlebars seem 
std on all but bear cat and their chute handle is handy enough.  The width 
on the Dynamark is 28" (I think) on the 8hp, and the impeller is sideways.  
The carb is covered so as to be warmed by the engine during operation (a 
techumseh std feature).  It does have a compression release.

All in all this seems like a fairly std blower with a techumseh engine.  
Does anything NOT have a tech engine?  Not as sturdy as a bear cat but the 
main features seem awfully std in function and quality.  Now if someone 
just sold parts???   This is the Major area where they come up short.

Now a couple of final questions.  Whats the big deal with bearcat, are 
they really better just because the impeller spins frontwards instead of 
sideways?  Is electric start nessesary, anyone without it who would never 
get another without it?  What happens to a b & s engne when it gets cold?

Craig

>It didn't have electric start but any techcumseh engine can take one I 
>assume. 

Don't assume this!   Most are not setup with a "toothed" flywheel.




> Lockout differential sounds fancy but the Dynamark had cotter keys 
>you can pull from the axle just like all the rest.  Auger and drive clutch 
>is std on everything as far as I can tell.  Controls on the handlebars seem 
>std on all but bear cat and their chute handle is handy enough.  The width 
>on the Dynamark is 28" (I think) on the 8hp, and the impeller is sideways.  
>The carb is covered so as to be warmed by the engine during operation (a 
>techumseh std feature).  It does have a compression release.

>All in all this seems like a fairly std blower with a techumseh engine.  
>Does anything NOT have a tech engine?  Not as sturdy as a bear cat but the 

Gilson and Ford (made by Gilson), have Briggs, decent machines!
I like Briggs over Techumseh, longer lived.


>main features seem awfully std in function and quality.  Now if someone 
>just sold parts???   This is the Major area where they come up short.
>
>Now a couple of final questions.  Whats the big deal with bearcat, are 
>they really better just because the impeller spins frontwards instead of 
>sideways?  Is electric start nessesary, anyone without it who would never 
>get another without it?  What happens to a b & s engne when it gets cold?

>Craig

There is a big difference in the "quality" of parts used in snowblowers.
I wouldn't recommend buying a Dynamark unless you plan on throwing it
away in 5 or 6 years.

    
    
    	I read in an earlier note that someone wanted info from Sears
    Snowblower owners.... I need the same insight. I am considering
    buying a 5HP Sears Craftsman Snowblower but am weary because of
    some of the comments in this file. Can anyone help me make up my
    mind????
    
    
    	help???
    
    	leo lavin
    

    I've had a Sears 5HP snowblower (don't remember Model #) since 1983
    (I wasliving just south of Poughkeepsie, NY), and other than an
    occasional shear bolt and regular oil changes every season, I've
    had no trouble with it at all. My old driveway was 80' long and
    changed elevation 14' from top to bottom! The wheel/chain combo
    would occasionally not be happy if there was a lot of ice, but I
    was always able to get the job done, plus it always started on the
    first or second pull. So you could say that I'm quite satisfied.
    
    Eric

    
    
    
    	Any one else have good or bad luck with a Sears Craftsman 5hp
    
    Snowblower????
    
    
    	need all the advice I can get
    
    	leo lavin
    

    
    I have the 7hp model and at the same time I bought mine a friend
    of mine bought the 5 hp he was very satisfied with it but complained
    it didn't have even horse when you got to the end of the drive where
    the plow left all the junk.  My 7hp is 4 years old and like a previous
    note outside of a couple of shear bolts and the usual lube and oil
    change no problem.  If your driveway is wide like mine you might
    want to go the extra $$ and get more horses to throw it farther.
    And by all means buy the electric starter when I bought mine sears
    had a package deal for only $40 extra they gave you the starter.
    
    My $0.02 worth.
    
    	Don
    

	I bought a 5HP machine last year (late November) Was mostly
       assembled, all I had to do was set the handle upright and connect
       the snow chute revolving mechanism. Easy to start Techumseh
       engine that never failed to start on the first pull even though
       it sat out in the elements all winter. I just covered the engine
       with a plastic washtub after letting it cool down.

       Has plenty of power to eat away at the pile left by the street
       plows and handles wet snow fairly well too...


       Chris

Has anyone heard of a Whites snow blower ? They seem to have all of the 
standard configurations of 5,8, and 10 HP. Tecumseh Snow King engines with 
24" to 28" chutes. 

The prices vary from $999 for the 824 (8 HP. 24" chute) electric start
smaller but wider wheels, to the $1160 1028 (10 HP. 28" chute) electric
start and 17" wheels.

I've looked at the John Deeres 826 and for the same price I can get the White's 
1028 model. I've also looked at the Toro's and the quality wasn't quite what
the John Deere is. I haven't compared the Ariens yet but I've got to do that 
this week and make a decision fairly soon with reports of 2' of snow in Minn.

	The thing is that I've never heard of Whites, only that they used 
to make trucks and possibly still do if it's the same company. Is Whites a 
company by itself, is it owned by some conglomerate or does it sell it's
products under another label ?

	Thanks for any info that you can give me on White's snow blowers.

    Does anyone have a manual for a SNOWBIRD S-225 snowthrower? It's
    a 5hp/ 2-stage. I recently came into possession of one and would like 
    as much information as possible because I've never owned/used a
    snowthrower before and need all the help I can get.
    
    Thanks in advance.
    
    Pat

    Yo! I have one. It isn't much, but send me your mail address, and
    I'll send you a copy.
    
    			Mark
    

    I'm in the market for a small-sized snowthrower.  I've checked-out
    the Toro CCR2000 which is a single-stage, 4.5 horse, 2-cycle,
    lightweight machine (75 lbs), selling price of $549.  The comparable
    Honda snow-thrower, model HS35, is single-stage, 3.5 horse, 4-cycle,
    92 lbs, and $525.
    
    I've pretty much narrowed-down my choices to these 2.  The others
    I've looked at were a discontinued Sears 5hp 2-stage, and the Ariens
    ST2+2, a 3.5hp 2-stage.  I almost bought the Sears, which was on
    sale last week for * $449 *, except that I learned that it's
    discontinued after only less than a year on the market.  None of
    the salespersons would comment on why it's discontinued after such
    a short life, therefore, I wouldn't touch it.  The Ariens I've seen
    once in a showroom plus I've read some `happy' replies about the
    ST2+2 in this note, so for $549, I would've seriously considered
    it.  What I hesitate about is it's physical size- I really don't
    need something that big.  As much as it pains me to pay the same
    money for a `compact' single-stage, I've decided (unless someone
    wants to talk me out of it!) to go with either the Toro or Honda.
    
    Now, does anyone have any experience with the Honda HS35?  I've
    heard nothing but praise for the Toro CCR2000.  The Toro has 1hp
    more than the Honda, but the Honda's a 4-cycle.  Any benefits of
    one engine over the other?  Also, can anyone recommend a Honda dealer
    in Southern NH/Northern MA east of 93?
    
    Thanks
    John

    
    
    I just purchased a True Value snow thrower from Paul's in Leominster.
    Its an 8hp and came with electric start, it was on sale for $839.00.
    I've been looking and this seemed like a good deal, plus I've done
    a considerable amount of business at Paul's and they are good people
    who back up what they sell. I was looking for a 5hp model but in
    talking to many people (sales-people and owners) the word seemed
    to be, "Get more HP, it will be much better in wet or packed/plowed
    snow". Tecumseh engine aside (they all seem to have that) it looks
    very much like the Sears. I suspect they may be manufactured by
    the same company. Anyway, it has a 2 year warranty on parts and
    labor and I was told if I had a problem they would come to my house
    and check it out and take it for repairs if necessary, which are
    made right at the store. Its the first time in recent memory I'm
    looking forward to a storm, its my first snowthrower so its like
    a new toy. I'm sure my enthusiasm will go after a couple storms.
    
    Mike
    

>    I just purchased a True Value snow thrower from Paul's in Leominster.

that note got my attention.  that's not a true value as in true value 
hardware is it?  if so i should be able to see one around here (westboro).
if not where and what is paul's in leominster?

i've been looking for a good 8hp for a while now.  i can't bring myself to 
lay out $1000+.  the used ones seem to be going for $700+ even if they're 
pretty old.  the dynamark at bj's has no parts or service that i can find 
in central mass.  and i'm getting nervous.  maybe that energenic noter from 
-.1 could handle my driveway too, until the novelty wears off.  :^)

       Yes, Pauls is a True Value (as in Pat Summerall ads) Store.
    It's on rte 12 in Leominster.
                                             Denny

    
    
    
    .214 Is correct. Paul's also carries many other major brands besides
    the True Value brand, its quite a large store. And as I said in
    my earlier note, from my experience I can recommend them highly.
    
    Mike
    

       Me too, It's the only hardware store I go to. Plenty of clerks
    to help you and answer your ?'s. Prices are good too.
                                                   Denny

Well, I went with the Dynamark from BJ's.  Here's what made up my mind.  

Price:  $657 + 5%.  Three freebies here, electric start, chains, and if you 
spend the 5% on a BJ special membership you don't have to spend the 5% on 
anything there for a year.  This, effectively, brings the price down to 
$550, although I wouldn't bother with electric start or the BJ's card.  The
best used deal I could find was a 2 year old Ariens for $900. 

Quality:  As mentioned previously it doesn't seem too flimsy.  Also, 
Consumers Reports mentioned it's the company who supplies Sears.  It rated 
#2 in CR for 5 hp machines.  Overall, it seems ok.  I treat my machines 
well so it should last a while.

Parts:  The closest parts dealer listed in the owners manual is in 
...Westboro!  I live here.  I fix most everything myself so it's really 
only parts I'm interested in.

All in all I'd reccomend it to anyone who fits a similar buyer profile, 
namely, that you're cheap! :^)

Craig

    I read through all these replies and didn't see anything on the
    Club Cadet Snowblower...I think they are made by International
    Harvester but I could be wrong.   Anyways does anyone own one or
    have any experience with one.  Are they as good as an Ariens or Toros

    OK, this is a snowblower question and it took me forever to find
    it but here goes....
    
    Last year I was doing some snow removal with my parents blower and
    until now I hadnt realize that I had broken it.
    
    (god I hope i do this right)
    
    We all know what the auger is right?  at least thats what I think
    its called.  well, there are two "braces" that are cast, located
    on each side of the "part where the snow goes in and gets munched
    up".  well, these to cast brackets are broken.  I sheared them each
    between the lower bolt that holds them on and the hole for the auger.
    Am I making any sense here???
    
    Anyhow, the manual has mysteriously disapeared and we have no way
    of knowing the part number.  Is there a place where we can find
    these "braces"?  I was a gift, and the givee doesnt remember where
    they got it so that route is dead.  HELP!  snow is coming.
    
    thanks alot, AL

        I purchased  a  10 horse Sears snow blower last xmas and wanted a
        head light on  it  but  there were none availiable.  I figured it
        would be an easy  task  to  purchase a "light Kit" adn install it
        later.  
        
        Sears does sell an identical  model  with  the light and starter.
        There is no light kit availiable  from Sears.  And the parts list
        for mine shows no light or generator parts.  
        
        Does anyone know if I am not understanding  something or should I
        be able to get a light and mount it on?
        
        Paul H.
        

< Note 1508.219 by SALEM::AMARTIN "OH OH, Ran outah piddies" >
    
    Anyhow, the manual has mysteriously disapeared and we have no way
    of knowing the part number.

#################################################################
AL

Try posting the make and model number of the snow blower. The
engine is usually a Tecumseh or a Briggs and Stratton and the're
a seperate manual.

cal hoe

BTW, most augers has a shear-pin that usually breaks when thse
auger jams on a rock or hard object. They're about $1 each but be
sure that they are the shear pins/bolt. A regular bolt will NOT
shear and maybe the cause of the casting breaking.

        I purchased  a  10 horse Sears snow blower last xmas and wanted a
        head light on  it  but  there were none availiable.  I figured it
        would be an easy  task  to  purchase a "light Kit" adn install it
        later.  
        
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
        Paul H.

	Sears sells a kit tha mounts on the pull rope cover. The
kit costs around $100. If not, you can get the same kit from a
Tecumseh parts dealer.

cal hoe
        

<
<	Sears sells a kit tha mounts on the pull rope cover. The
<kit costs around $100. If not, you can get the same kit from a
<Tecumseh parts dealer.
<
        

        Thank you!

        I think $100 will buy a lot of flash-lights! 

    re .219
    
    What make is it?  If you tell us the make, somebody with the same
    make can go home and find the phone number to call for parts.  You'll
    need to know the model when you call for parts.  Usually the model
    is the horsepower and auger width concatenated.  The year will also
    be needed.
    
    Alternately, you can look in the newspaper or phone book for a dealer
    that sells that make, and see if they have the part in stock.  The
    guy I bought mine from has a whole barn full of parts.
    
    You must have really whomped the auger to break both castings! 
    Did you run into a cement wall or something?
    
    
    Steve

    Actually Steve, it was a towel.  Don't really know what happened
    but when I was doing aup a whopper of a snow pile (you know, the
    ones that the trucks leave at your door?)  whammo!  the thing croaked.
    
    I removed the towel, not knowing that the castings were busted,
    and continued on my merry way.  
    Well, when we were getting it preped for this season of jollies,
    I noticed that the auger was sitting kinda funny.  Looking closer
    I noticed that the casting brackets were busted...ON BOTH SIDES!
    
    The only thing I can figure is that it was the towel the last time
    I used it.
    
    Any how, I will get the info and post it here and see what Ill get.
    
    Thanks alot, AL

    ok hers the info that you requested...
    
    Monkey wards type
    8hp briggs
    26' cut
    model# gil35233a
    serial# 9262c1
    and there was this number on it also, not sure what it is but someone
    here might make something outah it.  "791".
    
                   thanks alot, Al

    AL:
    
    	Mine's a Bolens, so I'm not going to be able to supply you with
    a phone number.  However, I'd say that Monkey Wards must have a
    'barn full' of parts for your blower, as long as it isn't too old.
    I'd suggest calling them and trying to find somebody who can look
    up your parts and order them for you.  If it wasn't Christmas time,
    I'd suggest going there and harrassing them in person, but they're
    bound to be a little busy around now.  
    
    	Sears has a network of service centers that deal with
    fixing/ordering parts for stuff that they sell.  Does MW do it the
    same way???????
    
    	Another possibility that just struck me is that you could take
    the broken parts off and bring them to a shop that can weld them
    back together.  This may be quicker than waiting for parts.  You
    can find welders listed in the phone book.
    
    	Good luck, let us know how it turns out.
    
    
    Steve

>< Note 1508.220 by HIHOSS::HOSSFELD >
>                           -< Help Brighten My Day! >-
>
>
>
>        I purchased  a  10 horse Sears snow blower last xmas and wanted a
>        head light on  it  but  there were none availiable.  I figured it
>        would be an easy  task  to  purchase a "light Kit" adn install it
>        later.  
>        
>        Sears does sell an identical  model  with  the light and starter.
>        There is no light kit availiable  from Sears.  And the parts list
>        for mine shows no light or generator parts.  
>        
>        Does anyone know if I am not understanding  something or should I
>        be able to get a light and mount it on?
>        
>        Paul H.
        

You probably don't have the intregal generator to power a light. You can check 
by pulling off the flywheel, that's where they bury them. If you do have a 
generator, Nothern Hydraulics seel a 12v tractor light and base for approx. $11.

Ross

>< Note 1508.225 by SALEM::AMARTIN "Trust me, I know what I am doing" >
>                    -< Ahhhh, now we're getting somewhere! >-
>
>    Actually Steve, it was a towel.  Don't really know what happened
>    but when I was doing aup a whopper of a snow pile (you know, the
>    ones that the trucks leave at your door?)  whammo!  the thing croaked.
>    
>    I removed the towel, not knowing that the castings were busted,
>    and continued on my merry way.  
<    Well, when we were getting it preped for this season of jollies,
>    I noticed that the auger was sitting kinda funny.  Looking closer
>    I noticed that the casting brackets were busted...ON BOTH SIDES!
>    
>    The only thing I can figure is that it was the towel the last time
>    I used it.
>    
>    Any how, I will get the info and post it here and see what Ill get.
>    
>    Thanks alot, AL

I'm not really sure on what you broke! Castings?, the only casting is the
housing for the auger gears. Are the augers broken (these are stamped steel,
not cast)? or is the auger end bearings gone? I know this machine well. If
you can provide a better description perhaps I can make a suggestion. 
BTW, if the broken part is steel, it's cheaper to weld it than replace it.

Ross

>< Note 1508.226 by SALEM::AMARTIN "Trust me, I know what I am doing" >
>                 -< Heres the info....now what??  PLEASE???? >-
>
>    ok hers the info that you requested...
>    
>    Monkey wards type
>    8hp briggs
>    26' cut
>    model# gil35233a
>    serial# 9262c1
>    and there was this number on it also, not sure what it is but someone
>    here might make something outah it.  "791".
>    
>                   thanks alot, Al



This machine is made by Gilson and sold as Gilson, Montgomery Ward and Ford.
You can purchace the same part from any of these dealers. However, if the
broken part is steel, it can probably be welded.

Ross

    well I am not sure what you call them.  Ijust assumed that they
    were casting.  lets try this..
    
    on each side of the blade thingy that eats up the snow...there is
    a hole with another piece of metal bracket with two bolts in it.
     it bolts onto the outside of the (lets call it) "mouth".  these
    things sure look like cast.  I could be wrong.
    
    Others:  my mother took it to see if it could be welded asnd yes
    it could....for a substantial amount.  I well bet that you could
    get new ones for the same amount or less.  besides, i would like
    to fix it properly.
    
    the machine is about 5 or more yrs old.  Am I making any sense
    to you now Ross?  thanks so far though.  
                                                 Al

    Ross,
    
        It sounds like he is describing the the bearing cups that support
    either end of the auger shaft.  Are the "castings" really bad or
    are the bearings just shot?
    
    
    Don

    YES!!! YES THATS ITDuh! :-)  wish id have said that.....
    
    the "bearing cups" are busted in half.   
    
    And I had my know it all (;-)) neighbor look and he said that they
    are hardened steel and not cast.  ah well..... help???

>< Note 1508.233 by SALEM::AMARTIN "Trust me, I know what I am doing" >
>                   -< Finally....I actually made sense..:-) >-
>
>    YES!!! YES THATS ITDuh! :-)  wish id have said that.....
>    
>    the "bearing cups" are busted in half.   
>    
>    And I had my know it all (;-)) neighbor look and he said that they
>    are hardened steel and not cast.  ah well..... help???



Montgomery Ward is very good in stocking parts for products they sell. I've
had no problems acquiring parts for machines as old as 1970. Give the
local store a call and they'll point you to the part warehouse. Those bearing
caps are probably about $6 a piece.

Ross

At one time (30 years ago?) there was a company or two that used to make
snow blowers to fit on the early CJ Jeep models.  If I recall correctly these
old units used to use the power take off.  

This came up when we were reading an older book on the advantages of the 
civilian version of the military General Purpose vehicle (the GP) around
the home.

Question: Does anyone today manufacture a snow blower that will fit on a
vehicle? It would seem that the intake would have to be a tad wider than the
vehicle (aside: todays Jeeps are substantially wider than the old CJ) and
probably would be better off with its own motor vs using power take off which is
seldom available on todays vehicles. 

Bruce

>< Note 1508.235 by SUBSYS::FILGATE "Bruce Filgate dtn 291-7077 ms NKS1-2/H6" >
>               -< Are vehicle mounted snow blowers available?? >-
>
>At one time (30 years ago?) there was a company or two that used to make
>snow blowers to fit on the early CJ Jeep models.  If I recall correctly these
>old units used to use the power take off.  
>
>This came up when we were reading an older book on the advantages of the 
>civilian version of the military General Purpose vehicle (the GP) around
>the home.
>
>Question: Does anyone today manufacture a snow blower that will fit on a
>vehicle? It would seem that the intake would have to be a tad wider than the
>vehicle (aside: todays Jeeps are substantially wider than the old CJ) and
>probably would be better off with its own motor vs using power take off which is
>seldom available on todays vehicles. 
>
>Bruce



They make snowblowers to fit the three point hitch on farm tractors. I believe
they go up to approx. 6 feet wide.

Ross

    
    
    
    it seems we all agree that the tracked snow blowers are more likely
    to be more difficult to manuver when doing your driveway..
    
    
    how can you possibly move it, if you have engine problems and have
    no power to push the machine??
    
    
    i'll take the wheeled snowblower thank you..
    
    mike
    

    Re: -.2 or -.3
    
    The bearing cups are probably fairly standard.  You might try taking
    one to a shop that services snowblowers (any make) and seeing if
    they stock them.

     While getting ready for the storm that was supposed to hit 
    New England yesterday, I was was greasing the auger shaft with
    chassis grease and then I checked the auger gearbox and found
    that there wasn't much lubricant in it. The qustion is, what
    type of lubricant should be used in the auger gearbox ??? 
    SAE 90 weight lub ???

<     While getting ready for the storm that was supposed to hit 
<    New England yesterday, I was was greasing the auger shaft with
<    chassis grease and then I checked the auger gearbox and found
<    that there wasn't much lubricant in it. The qustion is, what
<    type of lubricant should be used in the auger gearbox ??? 
<    SAE 90 weight lub ???


    YES!

    re: .235
    
    There is a no-name gas station on the corner of route 20 and
    Massasoit Street in Sudbury, MA.  They have exactly what you
    are talking about - a jeep with PTO to a full-size snow thrower
    mounted on the front.  They might be able to give you more
    information about it.
    
    
    Mark

    Thanks for all your help people.  We found a place right here in
    nashua that has them.  Pick them up today.
    In case anyone is wondering;
    
      Sta-Sharp saw services
      1Nobbs Av, Nashua NH
    
    This place has jes about everything you would ever need, and if
    they dont (sa in our case, they will get it.  Good poeple.
    
                        Thanks again, Al

I've looked through all 241 replies and haven't found anything
comparing electric with gasoline snowblowers.  What I'd like to
know are, given equivalent horsepower ratings, what are some
of the "gotcha's"?

Here are some I can think of.  There must be others.

electric:

The cord, obviously.  I have a straight driveway with an outlet
at just the right place.  I assume I can buy some kind of 
spring-loaded cord retractor that will take care of this issue.

In a major snowstorm power may go out for extended periods, especially
in Chelmsford.

You can reach your driveway but not the sidewalk.  Chelmsford
doesn't have sidewalks!

You can't be friendly and reach your neighbors' driveways.  My
neighbors have pickup trucks with snowplows, or 4wd's :-)

Do they tend to blow fuses?  Do they eat megabucks worth of electricity?
(I mean even without Seabrook online)

gas:

carburators and other gizmos that freeze and plug up and don't want to
work when it's cold out.  Starting in general.  More moving parts to
wear out?  A lot noisier?


P.S.   I've read the previous replys.  Please don't tell me it's a moot
question because snowblowers <7HP are toys.
I only have in the $300 price range to spend.  I have a small
enough driveway and I'm resigned to plowing it twice after a big storm, or
going out after each 1 foot of snowfall.
If anyone wants to give me the extra $400 I promise to take their advice as to
which 7HP gas powered snowblower to buy and I promise to agree with them 
that their recommendation is the best.

>I only have in the $300 price range to spend.  I have a small
>enough driveway and I'm resigned to plowing it twice after a big storm, or
>going out after each 1 foot of snowfall.

Since you appear to be a light user, you can probably get away with a 
light snowblower.

Also, didn't I just read a note in here from someone who is selling a 
snowblower for $100?  That leaves $200 for gas!   8^)

Bob

>I've looked through all 241 replies and haven't found anything
>comparing electric with gasoline snowblowers.  

Could you please start a new note on this subject so that the next person 
looking for information on electric snowblowers won't have to read up to the 
242nd reply before he finds this?  Thanks.

To everyone else: please don't respond to this here, wait until there's a new 
note.

Paul

> Could you please start a new note

I can't.  Whenever a new note is started about snowblowers the
moderator locks it and says to move it to the snowblower note,
i.e. this one.

Anyone can do a directory of 1508.* to a file, then
search the file for the word "electric".  I put it in the
title so anyone can find it that way.

By the way, someone mentioned to me offline that HP ratings of gas engines are
of output power but HP ratings for electric engines are input power!  Since 
efficiency of an e- motor is around 30%, a 3HP e- s.b. is not 3HP after
all but 1HP.  That settles it!  I get a gas one.

>> Could you please start a new note
>
>I can't.  Whenever a new note is started about snowblowers the
>moderator locks it and says to move it to the snowblower note,
>i.e. this one.

Whenever a new note is started that is on the exact same subject as an existing 
note, the moderator locks it and says to move it to the appropriate note.  But -
particularly when a topic is covered by a huge note like this one - the 
moderator has been known to ask that a specific aspect of discussion on that 
topic be started in a new note.  I can assure you with perfect certainty that 
the moderator won't lock your note and tell you to come back here, because...


I'm the moderator :^)

Paul

    Re: .246
    
    You have us soooo well trained ;^)

    re: electric snowblowers
    
elec. snowblowers = elec. lawn mowers = elec. chainsaws = almost useless

re .245:

>By the way, someone mentioned to me offline that HP ratings of gas engines are
>of output power but HP ratings for electric engines are input power!  Since 
>efficiency of an e- motor is around 30%, a 3HP e- s.b. is not 3HP after
>all but 1HP.  That settles it!  I get a gas one.

Umm.. The electrical efficiency of an electric motor is quite high.  At least
70% or so.  Gas motors are never more than 20-30% efficient, but since the
device is rated by its output power, you aren't fooled into getting an
underpowered one.  I'm not sure whether an electric motor is rated by input
power or output power, but that's very easy to figure out.  Divide the motor's
wattage by 746, if the rated HP is equal to the resulting number, the HP rating
is input power.  If the rated HP is about 70% of that number, it's the output
power.

-Mike

I have a MDT 5 HP snow blower. When it was in the -teens this
past week, I experienced a few times that the friction-disc drive
refused to shift. After I re-engage the drive, I could shift
again.

Has any experienced this? Was it the shifter mechanism frozen
over? Did I do something wrong?

cal hoe

    	Does anyone have an update on their snowblowers - what is the
    best brand cost/benefit wise?  Any update on Consumer Reports'
    recommendations?  We just bought a new house - 2 family - with 2
    good-sized driveways and definitely want to purchase a snowblower
    for the upcoming winter.  Neither my husband nor myself is 
    particularly mechanically-oriented so we want a new versus used
    model and, preferably, something that requires little main-
    tenance.  We are thinking about something in the 8hp range.
    	Any advice would be appreciated.  Thanks.
                                            
                                                Martha
    

    
    There's a lot of good stuff out there. I'm not about to say that
    brand x is better then brand y. There will probably be someone who
    will say that brand y is better then brand x. However from MY
    experience look at the following.
    	Toro : (Very good, but expensive).
    	Honda : (Very goo, but very expensive).
    	Sears/CRaftsmen : (Very good, and expensive, except when on
    			   sale).
    	Anything with a Tecumsa engine : This is the most important
   					 of the purchase.
    
    Mike_who_owns_a_2_family_with_2_90_feet_driveways.

    I, too, am going to be looking for a snowblower soon I fear. while
    I'd love to be able to afford a $1100 blower, but that's not too likely.
    I'll be looking at BJ's, sears, etc.. Does Spag's sell blowers?
    
    ...tom

    Re .251
    
    We've had our 8 hp Ariens for two winters now; not enough to gauge
    its longevity, but enough to say that it starts well, runs ok, and
    does a decent job of moving snow.  I really don't think that there's
    much practical difference between equivalent size machines; we
    bought ours because of the existence of a good nearby dealer for
    parts and service.  Price variation isn't that great either, if
    you consider that you're only going to buy one of these about every
    fifteen years, Lord willin' and 1978 don't come again.
    
    What do I know now that I didn't know before buying?  I wouldn't have
    spent any time debating over large-chassis vs small-chassis machines
    from the same maker: usually small-chassis machines run up to 7 hp,
    then large chassis machines start at 8 and go up to 11 or so.  Get
    the big sucker.  8 hp running full throttle will throw wet New England
    snow only about 15 - 20 feet.  Nevertheless, you probably won't want
    10 hp because those machines are 32 - 36 inches wide and a bear to
    maneuver for an average person, much less one of slighter stature.
    (There, that should appear to be appropriately non-sexist).
    
    Buy one of those small hand grease guns; annual maintenance is really
    quite minimal.  And don't forget to drain the gas tank during the
    summer months, or else fill it with gas plus marine fuel stabilizer.
    
    Watch for early-bird sales in September, good for a coupla hundred off.
    
    pbm
    

    Thanks for all the advice - we'll be watching for those preseason
    sales!
    Mike, do you use your snowblower to clear both driveways even after
    a really heavy storm?  How long does it take you - and how difficult
    is it?  We're wondering if we should contract with someone to plow
    the driveways or if it's feasible to clear them with the snowblower
    alone.  Does anyone know the going rate for snowplowing in the
    Fitchburg area?
    
    Martha 8*)	

    Some things to consider when buying:
    
    	. If it won't run, can I push/pull it easy?
    
    	My old Sears 7hp. was a dog to push.  My new Arien rolls easy.
     Nice when I ran out of gas, was already through cleaning the driveway,
    and all I wanted to do was roll it into my garage where I park it
    anyhow.
    
    	. Large wheels
    
          Small wheels really need chains.
    
    	. 8 hp better than 7 hp.
          
    	7s clog with wet slush much easier.
    
    	. electric start
    
    	Old bones can't take a stuborn engine anymore.
    
    	. gas line between tank and engine have a valve?
    
    	Handy when you have to separate the line from the carburator
        for maintenance.  Just don't forget to open this valve prior
        to trying to start the engine.
    
    	. 

I've got a 10hp Sears and have had to fiddle with it constantly. Slipped drive 
chains, broken mounting bolts, Had to rebuild the carb (leaking float mid-season)
... 6 years now and I won't buy another. 200+ ft driveway in about 20 minutes
with 8-12 inches of slushy snow. Wouldn't want to be without it but my neighbor's
7hp Toro has helped me out more than once.

Another consideration would be to buy it local where they'll service it if/when
it needs it (unless you LIKE working on them ;^)

A friend of mine once compared an 8-HP Sears Snowblower with an 8-HP Ariens
Snowblower (he owned the Sears, his brother owned the Ariens).  He said that
there was *NO* comparison.  While the engine power was identical, the ability
for each machine to deal with snow (and the ease of handling of each machine)
was radically different.  He ended up selling his Sears and getting an Ariens.

I've had an Ariens 8-HP snowblower since 1985 and I love it.  It's never needed
any repair work (I do maintence on it yearly, though - but then I do that w/my
lawnmower too), runs great, and starts great.  I got it with the electric start
option, but I wouldn't recommend that.  Why?  The engine always starts on the
first or second pull - thus, by the time I can plug the starter in, a pull will
always get the snowblower running - manual start is faster.

Based on Consumer Reports, Toro is also a very good brand.

IMO, you get what you pay for.  Get a good brand (and pay lotsa bucks), and
you'll have a great unit that will last you forever (or nearly so).  Get a
cheap unit, and you'll save money but will need to put up with aggravation
in the long run.

    To answer the reply from a few back...yes, SPAGs does sell snowplowers.
    At least they did last year.   In the early winter months they had a
    model called 'ATLAS' which I think was made in Canada.   Later in the
    winter they carried 'BRUTE' (also called 'DYNAMARK') wheel and track
    driven models.
    
    BJ's also carried the BRUTE units (which I think a built by NOMA
    OUTDOOR Products)....their price was cheaper than spags.  I
    purchase an 8hp, 24", Tecumsah engine complete with chains and
    electric start at BJs for $660....not a bad price considering that
    similat TORO and ARIENS models were around $1000.
    
    I also concur with another recent reply that 'not all units are the
    same' and that you 'get what you pay for'.   If you are willing to
    spend the time and travel, it's worthwhile to talk to a few
    knowlegable salespeople about ARIENS, TORO, etc.   For example, when
    I was talking to an Ariens dealer he had told me that one of the
    positive features about the Ariens units was the design of the
    impellar(sp?) and how it was 'better than all the others'.   So that
    was one more thing to look for (which I did find on the unit I
    eventually pruchased).
    
    /Russ
    

    re. electric start
    
    While it's true that my 8 hp Ariens almost always starts on the first
    pull, I got the electric start so it would be easier for my wife to
    use.  (I'm just a hellava guy.  8-) )
    
    Seriously, I've had the Ariens for 5 winters now and it's a terrific
    machine.  The 8 hp is often needed in New England as another note
    mentioned.  My dad (who takes good care of his stuff) has a 7 hp Ariens
    purchased in 1969, and it still works like new.
    
    Definitely an Ariens fan,
    
    Bob

    I've had an Ariens for two winters and I don't even care how good the
    others are.  I wouldn't be without it.  My co-owner is Building&Grounds
    Super for a suburban school district and he's bought dozens of Ariens
    and nothing else.

     My fathers Ariens is going onto 8 years of age this winter. His
    driveway is approximately 2/3 of a mile. The electric start on the
    unit has yet to be needed, even on really cold days. It's an 8 HP
    and does the job quite well.

    Folks,
    
    There are 262 replies to this note.  The more replies there are, the
    more discouraging it is for new readers to go back and read them all.  
    
    Many of the notes are of the form "yes, you need 8 hp", "Ariens and/or
    Toro are great", and "Sears isn't all that great".  If you have
    something new to add, then by all means add it, but I don't think we
    really need fifty notes on how reliable Ariens are.  
    
       Gary

    I bought a 8HP Ariens used 9 years ago. The only problems/ repairs
    have be user inflicted. Carb rebuilt $10 (former owner crashed
    something into it) 1st worm gear $40 ( I ate a large Tonka Dump truck.
    took an hour with a crow bar and a big hammer to get the pieces out
    of the final impellar). 2nd worm gear $40 (ate a broken car spring).
    ( In all cases I did my own work using the manuals provided)
    
    I Cleared a 100 ft drive for 2 years, 2  20'x40' parking lots with
    200ft of walks for 3 years (ate the truck and spring here courtesy
    of tenants). I now clear about 400 feet of paved driveway. 
                      
    In the fall I clear the junk off of it clean it and turn on the
    gas and three pulls later it's off and running. In the Spring I
    change the oil clean the unit and run the gas out of the
    carb and fuel lines.  
    
    Don
    (watch this year I'll have problems because I said how good it's
    been)
    
    Don

    OK, I've been doing a little shopping: I'm considering a 5HP
    self-propelled blower (please no "get the 8HP" responses, I've heard
    it already.. I know what I'm doing..)
    
    Anyway, The Toro "521" is $750 at Ted's in Marlboro. OK machine..
    He said I should also consider the "824 Power Shift", but at $1049
    my heart can't take it.. No-interest fininacing (till april) offer
    in effect until the end of september, unless they don't sell a lot
    in which case it will be extended.
    
    The Ariens ST524 is $800 at Goodall's, $750 (cash and carry) at
    Archie's (Shrewsbury). I think I like the human engineering of this
    machine better than the Toro 521; you can adjust the chute with
    the machine moving, whereas on the toro you run out of hands.
    
    Sears has a 521 for $650. I looked and looked and played and touched
    and somehow I can't see the Ariens/Toro being worth $100 more, with
    the possible exception of rapid parts availability.
    
    $650 is still a lot of money. I guess I'll hang in there a week
    or two and see if Spag's and BJ's get their machines out.. 
    
    The big question is: HOW ABOUT USED MACHINES?? I asked at all the
    places I went to yesterday, and the consensus  is that they are
    catch-as-catch-can, generally 10-15 years old, and essentially no
    guarantee. Any experiences??
    
    ...tom

    For used machines go talk with a dealer of the brand you like.  Many
    people are looking to trade-up from 5HP machines to 8HP machines and
    this could give you some opportunities.  You could also look in the
    Want-Ads....especially for relatively current models.  These things
    tend to be like bicycles in that most people buy new.
    	The machines tend to be straight forward....the worst thing is if
    someone ran the engine without oil and it needs replacing.  Other than
    that, a little paint should fix most of the problems.
    Ric

    We bought a used Simplicity last year, mostly because I couldn't see
    paying that much money for the sort of new one that we needed.  Given
    the winter that we had, we shouldn't have bought anything.  We payed
    about $400 for an 8HP, and bought it from an individual who refurbishes
    small engine equipment (mostly snowblowers and lawn mowers) as a side
    line.
    
    We've had three noticeable problems so far, one if which is unrelated
    to the fact that it's used.  We had the fuel line from the gas tank to
    the carburetor come off.  This was trivial to fix (just put it back
    on), but harder to diagnose and gave us a good scare.  We've broken a
    drive belt, probably because it's used, but possibly because the blades
    jammed.  Finally, we had a rock get thoroughly jammed in the second
    stage.  This has nothing to do with the age of the machine, but may be
    a design flaw.  It's still a nuisance in the winter.
    
    We also find that the discharge chute has a tendancy to float towards
    one direction.  Again, I think this is a design flaw, because the chute
    is controlled by a cable wrapped around a control arm, rather than by
    gears, but I could be wrong, and it could be a result of use.  Finally,
    the paint is flaking in places.  This is probably the fault of the
    previous owner/user, for doing a lousy touch-up job when trying to sell
    it.  The guy who sold it to us had plenty of other machines that have
    rusted into worse condition and weren't painted, so I can't see why
    he'd bother doing a touch-up job on this one at all.
    
    If I had to do it over again, I'd spend more time looking in the Want
    Advertiser.  I'd also go to more dealerships, tell them that I was
    looking for a used machine, and leave my name and address.  I'd look
    for a more popular make (probably Ariens or Toro), and I'd try to pay
    closer to $300 for an 8HP.
    
       Gary

    
    While your shopping, check out Bolens. I got mine at Edgemere Power
    Equipment in Shrewsbury. The Ariens are nice machines, but if you
    compare them to the Bolens you'll see the differences. After last
    season's lack of snow I'd think you'd be able to cut a real good deal
    on a new machine. I thought about used, but a snowblower is one of
    those machines you want to take care of, and I didn't want to gamble
    on someone elses idea of proper maintenence. Besides, unless you move
    south, you're gonna keep the thing for a long, long time, so it's
    expense is spread out over a lot of years. At least that's how I got
    the wife to buy-in 8^)
    
    CdH
    
    
    

    	Several noters seem to have gotten good deals at BJ's.  Not
    to sound stupid but where is BJ's?  Haven't heard of it.
    
    	Any opinions on Honda snowthrowers?  Saw a really nice, barely
    used one, 5.5hp I think (though the salesman claims on a Honda
    that's equivalent to a USA 8hp), for $1000.  Nice machine, price
    seems steep, although the same machine, brand new, retails for
    $1300 or so.  It really is as good as new and comes with a full
    years warranty.  Whadayathink?
    
    	Thanks for all the help.
    
    						Martha

re: buying used.

Check for hidden rust in enclosed areas of the snowblower.  This is good
indicator of how/where the snowblower was stored and maintained.

Make sure you get a model that can be serviced at your local fixit place.

The engines on these guys are truely at the mercy of their owners.  Dont
change the oil frequently and they wont last long.   I dont know how to
check for this but would recommend not buying a machine much older than
5 years if you can not determine how well it was maintained.

Good Luck.

    
    RE .269
    
    5.5hp is 5.5hp. Honda's are real nice, I just don't think their
    worth double the price of comperable blowers.
    
    Mike

re: .269
>    	Several noters seem to have gotten good deals at BJ's.  Not
>    to sound stupid but where is BJ's?  Haven't heard of it.

i was one who bought at bj's.  there's one in westboro on rt 9 next to 
somerville lumber.  i don't know what they have this year but last year 
they still had some long into winter.  maybe there are some "last year" 
types there for a bargin.

to all those buying this year: it doesn't matter what you buy as long as it 
costs a lot.  then it won't snow all year; i'm speaking from experience.
i paid my dues last year, now it's your turn.

craig

    Re .269
    
    BJ's is a warehouse outlet, owned by Zayres/TJ Maxx.  Last year,
    the BJ's in Salem NH was offering Jacobsen 8hp snowblowers for
    about $650, in the crate, you haul it home, uncrate and assemble.
    Bring a pickup truck and a few buddies.
    
    pbm
    

Buying a blower at BJ's is all well and good--- until you have to have the
thing serviced, or have a problem with it tht should be under warranty.

Then what do you do?

Steve

    Once while looking at lawnmowers, they had a sign up saying who
    the local dealer (who would cover warranty work) was.  I haven't
    seen the snowblowers in the W'boro store yet, so I can't say if
    they still do this.  
    
    I'm currently pursuing a used machine from another noter. We shall
    see...
    
    ...tom

    
    re .273
    
    Zayres sold corp sold it's stores to AMES (I think it was Ames).
    They kept the TJ Maxx and BJ's, the only money making stores it
    owned. Zayres is/was loosing money. I don't know what the new
    corporation is called since Zayres is no longer part of it.
    
    Mike

re .272

>to all those buying this year: it doesn't matter what you buy as long as it 
>costs a lot.  then it won't snow all year; i'm speaking from experience.
>i paid my dues last year, now it's your turn.

It wasn't your snowblower that did it; it was my Jeep Cherokee...

    Actually, I think it was the Toro weather guarantee, which I remember
    seeing at Hammer Hardware.  I believe they promised to refund a
    percentage of the cost of the snowblower, based on how much the
    actual snowfall was below the average snowfall for the area (as
    determined by the National Weather Service, and all that).  I believe
    it went up to 100% refund, for something like 6 or 10 inches below
    normal.
    
    The catch is that it was for a two year period.  So all the people who
    bought their Toro's last year have to hope for a second mild winter in
    a row.  (Maybe it's time to short some Toro stock.)
    
       Gary

    The lastest Consumer's Report rates snowblower if any of you are
    interested!
    
    Kathy - who still has the two new snow shovels she bought last year!

    There is also a BJ's in Salem, NH.  Not sure where, but you could call
    for directions.

     BJ is right off the main drag in Salem...  Here is dirsctions from
  the   south... 93 north to Exit 1 in New Hampshire The Rockingham
    Racetrack exit...
    
    At the end of the exit bear to the right onto route 28 south.
    
    At the first set of lights (Across from of the Rockingham Mall)
    Take a left and its 1/4 of a mile on your right!
    
                  REK 

    Re .281
    
    That last phase should read "on the LEFT"
    
    pbm
    

    FYI:
    
    Its BJ's Wholesale Club, you have to be a member to get in.  You
    have to work for a company that they accept (like Digital), fill
    out an application, and pay them $25 to become a member (plus $10
    if you want your spouse to be a member too).  
    
    Jim D.

    you only have to pay the $25 if you want the "inner circle" membership
    (which eliminates the 5% surcharge). 
    
    Neither I nor my SO have ever paid for a BJ's membership..
    
    ...tom

	I was there last week for the first time. They said I had to pay
$25.00. They said it was a new program which had started 2 weeks previous
to my visit. The guy also said that all the old memberships will expire in 
January and everyone will have to pay the $25.00 at that time.

P.S  I also showed them my Digital badge. I didn't get a membership!

	-BoB-

    I was at BJ's last week; I saw the signs up extolling the new fees
    for the inner-circle membership (used to be $30), but no sign telling
    me mine was about to expire...
    
    Maybe they are gonna drop this surcharge crap and just have one
    membership type.. (wouldn't bother me, with the amount I spend there
    I'd make out better without the surcharge.. just never bothered
    to fork over the bux..)
    
    Anyway, back to snowblowers...
    
    ...tom

>
>        I was there last week for the first time. They said I had to pay
>$25.00. They said it was a new program which had started 2 weeks previous
>to my visit. The guy also said that all the old memberships will expire in 
>January and everyone will have to pay the $25.00 at that time.
>
There is no way, on God's green earth, that I'm going to PAY somebody, to me 
"allow" me to go into their store and spend money.  What are they, nuts?  
Their prices aren't any better than sales prices that you find in regular dept.
store flyers, or Spag's.  

Pay $25/year to shop?  Nonsense.  I think DECies [and other customers] should
take their business elsewhere, and let them know why.

    
    This $25 charge may have something to do with the new reorganization
    since the sale of Zayres.
    
    Mike

    okay, so what do the last umteen replies have to do with
    snowblowers, seems more like a CONSUMERS issue to me.
    
    Anyway, I bought my snowblower 8hp Toro from DUPUIS Equipment
    in Leominster last year.  Only got to use it once though.  I
    went with the TORO because there is no Shear pin to worry about
    breaking.
    
    I think most Toro dealers are having specials right now...something
    like 200 dollars off and no payments until sometime in 1990...
    
    mark

        I bought a 7hp simplicity in 87 from a dealer that sells Toro. The
    dealer told me he recommends the Simplicity over the Toro because it's
    easier to service and seems to require less service. I seldom use the
    electric start as I find it usually starts on the first pull. I also
    started waxing the chute to cut down on the clogging with the really
    wet stuff.
    
        Bob

     I know this may be a bad word but I bought a 6 horse, 24 inch Bolens
    4 years ago... paid $650 cash right out of the box.. I've been very
    happy with it. I have a 100 foot drive way that goes from 12 feet
    to 20 feet. I chose not to use chains and I have never even bought
    some..
    
                            Rick

    Can't wait to finally get some use out of my 3hp (or is it 3.5hp?)
    single-stage Honda that I bought last year.  I looked kind of
    ridiculous using it on what little white stuff we got here in New
    England last winter, just had to do it......
    
    Anyway, it's been mentioned in this note that Honda's are very
    expensive.  This is true.  Even calling around for best price, it
    still cost me $495.  Why did I pay so much for such a small machine?
    Well, after seeing what was out there in the large single-stage
    arena, there was no question in my mind that the Honda was worth
    the $100-200 more.  The large single-stage Toro came in 2nd.  Best
    price I could get was about $150 less than my Honda, but comparing
    the overall design, quality of construction, and the way both machines 
    ran, I liked the Honda that much better.  Had the Toro's engine been 
    a 4-cycle like the Honda's and, had the Toro's quality appear a
    little closer to the Honda's, I probably would've bought it.  The 
    Honda ran much quieter and smoother, and without that 2-cycle stink.
    
    Also, I think I should mention that I also looked at 2-stage blowers
    in the $500-$700 range (not that many really).  Came real close
    to buying an Ariens ST2 5hp (I think it was on sale for around $625)
    but I realized that the additional size, weight, and cost over the
    Honda was not justified for the size of my driveway, which is just
    big enough for 4 cars (2x2).  And, considering maneuverability,
    the Honda gets around and inbetween my 2 cars as if I were shovelling!
    
    John
    
    P.S.  Forgot to mention B.J.'s single-stage 2-cycle entry for around
          $200.  My opinion- it's worth $200.

          A recent Consumer Report (either Sept. or Oct.) has a review
    of snowblowers.
                                             Denny

I bought a 2 stage Craftsman with a blown 6hp engine for $10. Picked up a 
10hp Tecuhmsa (sp) Snow King engine for $199.00 mailorder. 

Try and find a 10hp blower for $209.00

daryll

    
    
    
    
    	Anyone have any experience with the brand called CUB CADET??
    
    
    				Bob
    

    FYI, the Ariens dealer in Haverhill, MA (sorry, don't know the name
    offhand) is having a sale on it's snowblowers.  What caught my eye
    was the price, after factory rebate, of the 2 stage, 5hp model that
    I was considering last year when I was shopping- $499!  IMHO, this
    is an excellent deal for those not needing an 8hp monster, FWIW.
    
    Hope this helps.
    
    John

    Wow. That's low. Where is this place? 
    
    ...tom

    Not sure, but I think it's the ST2+2.  The dealer's in Haverhill,
    MA.  Don't know the name, but directory assistance (ha ha :-)) could
    probably help you, ask for Ariens dealer.......
    
    That's as far as I go, I mean inquiring about it myself.  I'm real
    happy with my Honda purchase last year, and I don't want to start
    second guessing myself because of another great deal a year later.....
    
    Good luck!
    
    John

    The Haverhill Ariens dealer is Dunn's Equipment.  Route 110, almost
    in Amesbury.
    
    pbm
    

    Well since the last note was in 87 and Toro has put out several
    other models of there "snow shovels" I thought someone could give
    there opinions on the newer ones. I looked at some over the weekend
    that went for $250 Model s-1200 or something like that. They were
    electric and had bigger wheels and had a handle to direct the snow
    right or left. All rubber in side. T.V. commercials have been playing
    them up showing one neighbor blowing the snow on his drive and the
    neighbor coming out and blowing it back. Are these worth the money?
    Has consumer report done a study lately?

    RE: Back a few... Shear Pins
    
    The Shear pin is put in on snowblower augers as a FEATURE!!!
    
    If I hit a large rock/tonka truck/wagon wheel/etc... while plowing,
    I'd rather replace a $1.00 bolt in five minuites than replace a
    $$$$ auger/gear drive in X hours. 
    
    BTW: I've replaced 2 Shear pins since my father bought my present ARIENS
    7 horse in 1973.                                        
    
    	Ed @ @
    	    U

    
    Hi there!
    My snowblower, an ancient no-name 8hp (tecumseh engine) needs
    a tune up.  Trouble is, I can't 'take' it anywhere, the place/person
    would have to pick-up/deliver, or repair at my house.  
    I know, I should've done this in the summer/fall, but.......
    
    Anyway, know any good small engine repair folks in the Billerica
    Burlington, Chelmsford area???
    
    thanx
    deb
    

    
    re: -.1\
    if that';s in response to my question about service...its not
    good they only service what they sell.  (or actually what they
    * sold * )
    they do my mower, as I bought it there, but nothing else.
    
    any other suggestions?
    
    thanx
    deb
    

    Hi Deb (how's things?),
    
        The place that I bought my Honda mower services other stuff (I
    think).  It is on route 38 in Wilmington just over the Tewksbury line.
    Unfortunately, I don't remember the name.
    
        If that location sounds acceptable, send me some mail and I'll dig
    up the actual name and number.
    
    __Rich

    Try Cason saw in Lowell.  I believe they pick-up.
    
    Chris D.

    
    Thanx for all the suggestions so far!  Hopefully after xmas I 
    can contact someone to do it.
    
    deb
    

>>>I bought a 2 stage Craftsman with a blown 6hp engine for $10. Picked up a 
10hp Tecuhmsa (sp) Snow King engine for $199.00 mailorder. 

daryll

Did you have to modify anything to get the 10 HP engine in?

Cal

< Note 1508.308 by CTD026::HOE "Sammy, Dad's home!" >
                            -< any modifications? >-


>Did you have to modify anything to get the 10 HP engine in?

A couple of minor things Cal. I had to drill new holes in the 
base of the blower to bolt the new motor in since the 10hp had a 
wider base. The only other thing I had to do was go down to a 
Sears parts depot and pick up a larger pulley since the one that 
was on the 6hp was too small.

Took about 4 hours.

Got the 10hp from a Northern catalog. Send me mail if you want my 
latest copy.

daryll

       Okay I'm stumped! I have one of those old Snow Birds (225, I
    think). The problem is that I need to change the riginner tube in
    the right tire (the one connected to the chain). Can someone give
    me directions? Do I need a puller of some kind to get the cap/bushing?
    off the wheel? In other words, how in %^#$^% does that wheel come
    off? Thanks in advance.
                                      Denny

Denny,
	I used to have one of myself. In order to remove the wheel:

	1. Remove the bolts from the chain guard front section

	2. Loosen the chain. This is done by twisting the front
	   auger bracket counterclockwise.

	3. Remove the protection bolt "forgot it's fancy name" from the 
	   wheel axle.

	4. Remove the chain guard and sprocket from the right axle. It is
	   all one piece. I think you have to slip the chain off the sprocket
	   to do this.

	5. The wheel is free.....



	To assemble reverse the order above.

                                      Bill

       thanx Bill, I'll give it a try this weekend.(Which guarantees snow
    between now and then!)
                                      Denny

    I thought my experience my help somebody else with the same
    problem.
    
    I recently bought a used Bolen 5 hp. snowblower, which the owner
    suggested needed a sparkplug replacement.  Well , even after liberal
    doses of "penetrating oil" , the spark plug came out reluctantly
    WITH THE ALUMINUM THREADS of the cylinder head top plate.
    
    I removed the top plate and took it down to Moscarello's (Rt 62,
    Maynard) and they corrected the problem with a heli-coil insert
    for only $7.50.  This was cheaper than me buying the heli-coil
    kit and doing the repair myself.

    My neighbor has a Toro Snowblower. I believe it is an 8hp. This weekend
    with the 8 inches of snow, his blower was not able to move any snow.
    The auger would spin but as soon as he hit the snow the auger would
    slow down and eventually stop. There would be no squealing that you
    might expect with a belt slipping. The engine ran fine. 
    
    We lengthened the drive lever using the adjustment at the bottom. It 
    seemed to help somewhat but not enough to keep the auger spinning. 
    We took the adjustment almost out to as far as it would go untill you 
    had to put a good deal of pressure on the lever to lock it in place.
    
    I hesitate to adjust this lever any further as it seems like there is
    no slack left to take up. I tend to think that something else has
    worked loose. Could the pulley be the problem? Could the pulley work
    itself loose? 
    
    This problem was evident the last snow storm, but my neighbor was
    hoping that that was the last snow of the year. Last week being school
    vacation he drove to Florida to visit grandparents. Naturally he
    arrived home last night at 7pm to 10 inches of snow on his driveway and
    a snow blower in need of repair. 
    
    My 7hp Ariens cleared his driveway without a problem.
    
    
    Steve Ridge

    He needs a new drive belt.  (I speak from recent experience with
    EXACTLY this problem....)
    
    The new belt will cost $11.75 or thereabouts.  To replace it, remove
    the plastic (at least mine is) cover just in front of the motor
    above the auger.  This will expose the belts.  You can slip the
    belt off, with a little fiddling, and replace it.  No big deal.

re       <<< Note 1508.312 by PWRVAX::RIEU "We're Taxachusetts...AGAIN!" >>>

>       thanx Bill, I'll give it a try this weekend.(Which guarantees snow
>    between now and then!)
>                                      Denny

        So, it was your fault...  :-)
        
        q
        
        

       I confess!!
                                        Denny ;^)

    
    While I was living at home, I used my father's tracked snowblower. It
    was a nice machine (honda 2-stage eight horsepower). His driveway was
    STEEEEEP! I've never used a wheeled snowblower but for this application
    I think I would have had much more trouble doing this driveway if I was
    using wheels. It was however a monster to manuver. It didn't like to
    turn and I found myself fighting with it to get it to turn most of the
    time. One of the best things about the tracks though was that I could
    control the depth of the cut without getting stuck, for example, when
    clearing the end of the driveway (you know, where the snowplow deposits
    that fifty ton mass of rock-solid ice chunk filled snow) I could cut
    the top off, then the middle and then get down to bare pavement. I can
    only assume that if I had tried that with wheels, I would have gotten
    stuck on the first pass. I was impressed with how I could make the
    thing go just about anywhere without getting stuck. 
    
    So the tracks have their pro's and cons. But for steep terrain I
    definitely recommend them. 
    
    Electric start though tends to be a waste of money (the salesman really
    socked it to my father, he had had a few drinks when he went to buy
    it). I used it a couple of times, but I got sick of plugging the thing
    into the wall when I wanted to start it. 
    
    Steve
    

    I am considering purchasing a Sears Craftsman 10/32 (10 hp. 32" bucket)
    I have a large (huge-ish) driveway, and a looong sidewalk to clear snow
    from. The machine is 2 years old, and is track drive, has a headlight,
    electric start, and a bar which, when engaged shifts approx 70
    additional lbs. to the front of the machine. Seems like a good snow
    blower. Ive read the discussion on track -vs- wheel in anothere note.
    My primary questions are is this a good snowblower (I know they make
    failry good tools). And can this be stored outside ? (I done have
    enough room in the shed for it. I t will be stored under an over hang,
    proteceted from rain/snowfall but not the elements in general).
    
    Any/all input appreciated.
     Thanx/Bob
    
    (By the way where is all the snow?!?!?!)

    re. 319
    
    I just fixed that same problem last weekend.
    
    remove the covering over the carb. and blow out a plastic
    injet piece that goes into the carb. I used one of those
    air pump than u can plug into the car cigarette lighter.
    
    It has an L shape so the residue of gas turns to gel 
    is my guess.
    
    Good luck - Lloyd

Before pulling the carb apart, you could try a couple of gentle taps on it with,
say the wooden handle of a hammar. That and a shot of starting fluid is all it
took to get mine going this year.

						Trace

    Most snowblowers have a fuel cutoff. Check on the hose between the
    gas tank and carb for the cutoff and make sure it is open. I'm sure
    you alread did this though, right?
    
    Ray

    For a tune-up replace the spark plug, empty the gas tank
    and the oil, and replace both with new fresh products.
    
    Check all nuts and bolts for tightness.
    
    That's about it (except for cleaning it in general)
    
    You'll need it tonight or tomorrow if u live in N.e.
    
    N.E. that is...Lloyd

    re: .325
    Any idea what weight oil to use?  I lost my owner's manual quite a while 
    ago, and have since wondered about what kind of oil to put in the
    auger gearbox.

    
    Probably gear oil, 80-90W.
    
    If the points are shot, it can be a hassle to replace them, as some
    engines hide them behind the flywheel, which must be pulled off the
    crankshaft.
    
    CdH
    

    Check the spark before you put the new plug in. Do this by putting
    the spark plug wire on the plug and laying the spark plug on the
    head (or any other metal surface) so that the threaded portion contacts
    metal. Bump the engine a couple of times to check for a good arc.
    
    re oil: I think straight 20 weight but if it's really cold in your
    area drop to 10 weight.

Be sure there are no gas leaks or spills around when you check the spark like
that.  Even a small spark can turn your snowblower into a flamethrower.

Dave

    
    Then engine oil in my Toro specifies 5-30w only. Anything else will
    void warrenty. 
    
    Mike
    

    re: .331
    I'm not asking about the engine oil - I'm asking about the lubrication
    for the gearbox on the auger.  

    If your snowblower was stored with gas in the carburator, chances are
    that the fuel jets are all gummed up.  This can be helped by:
    
    	1) liberal dose of carburator cleaner down the air intake
    
    	2) liberal amounts of carburator cleaner or dry gas in the gas tank
    
    	3) turn all the jets fully closed, keeping track of how many turns
    it took to close each one, then back them out the same amount
    
    Steve

    Use 80-90W gear oil for the gearbox.  
    Sometimes this is referred to as (labeled) liquid grease.  

I was plowing some real wet snow this weekend.  I had to clear the blower
a couple of times.  That only took a few seconds, even with stopping the engine
and turning the ignition off and then cranking it again after it was clear.  

Then I stopped plowing but left the engine running for about three or four
minutes while I explained to my son the scientific principles I had evolved
for successful plowing.  During this presentation, the slush inside the blower
froze solid and stopped it dead.  Various attempts at clearing the blower
failed and I had to take it inside to melt the blockage away and ended up
shoveling the rest of the day.  The best part was when I was chipping away
with the straight hoe and chipped my big toe.

Anyway:  BEWARE OF STOPPING THE BLOWER WHEN IT'S FULL OF WET SNOW AND THE
	 TEMPERATURE IS BELOW FREEZING.

Don't bang your toe, either.

    Does anybody know if there is an "800-" telephone number for
    Northern Hydraulics.
    
    My Bolens snowblower with a 5hp Tecumseh engine just threw a rod and
    I understand Northern Hydraulics sells replacement engines "cheap"
    
    Any other suggestions for an inexpensive Tecumseh source??
    
    Thanks
    
    Jonathan
            

    Hello, folks - Having finally decided that it is cheaper than a
    chiropractor for my bad back, I managed to buy a used snowblower at a
    decent price.  However, I don't have the owner's manual for it.  Does
    anyone out there own a Toro 421 snowblower?  I managed to get a manual
    for the current model Toro (the 521), but there were a few changes in
    the design, so I would be very grateful if someone who owns the 421
    could copy the manual for me.  Thanks!
    
    /Charlotte
    
    Posted in CONSUMERS and HOME_WORK.

    re.336 Northern's 800 number is 800-533-5545
    I just bought one of their 5hp Tecumseh snow blower engines.
    Total including UPS shipping to central Mass was somewhere around
    $160 (just under). I can check exact details and order numbers
    tonight at home if you want. 
    
    	Dave

    .336
    When you order the engine make sure you know exactly what you want and
    explain it to the order taker. I had some difficulties when I ordered
    mine. I have a Toro wheelhorse circa 1975 and wanted to replace the 
    7hp Tecumseh engine. Well I called and told them the machine I had
    and the shaft length and size. When I received the engine it wasn't
    the right one. It seems that since I didn't mention the PTO on it
    I didn't get it. When I called to find out the why I got the wrong 
    engine I was then told they didn't carry 7 and 8HP snow engines with
    the  PTO shaft. So I sent it back. Since I now had to order from a
    dealer I have found out that this particular Wheelhorse engine was
    a special order from Tecumseh and required a special shaft and also
    in this process the newer engines had the PTO shaft changed to a larger
    size. Its a good thing I decided against keeping this one I ordered first 
    because as I was putting it back together with the correct engine I realized
    that the PTO shaft was being used as the forward drive (originally thought
    that this was the reverse and really didn't check it out) and the main shaft
    was used for the auger drive and also for the reverse power. Its now 
    all together and have used it twice with no problems.
      
    
    -Jim-

    
    
    What's the easiest procedure for installing a new V-belt that drives
    the auger. The salesperson at the power equipment business mentioned
    that most snowblowers "crack open like a suitcase", which allow you
    you to slip the new belt on. Tried without success yesterday to "open
    the suitcase". The machine I have is an old 4hp, Gilson brand with a
    Briggs and Stratton engine. Any ideas?

    Does anyone have an 800 number for Ariens?  I just picked up a used
    snowblower without a manual and would like to get the documentation.
    The machine is about 10 years old or so, so I figured only the
    manufacturer would still have it on file...
    
    -randy

    It appears to have been a while since there have been any updates to
    this note.
    
    I am currently in the market for a snowblower.  I am comparing a John
    Deere TRS24 to a Ariens ST524.  The John Deere TRS24 is $879 and the
    Ariens ST524 is $850 (with a free light kit).  The Ariens ST524 is last
    year's model.
    
    I was wondering if anyone has any information on either of these two
    model snow blowers.  At the present time I am leaning towards the John
    Deere as I like the layout of the controls better.
    
    Thanks for any input anyone can provide.

    I have an Ariens ST524 that's about five years old.  It works well,
    although we haven't had much snow in the last few years.  I had one
    problem with it when the pull start mechanism broke but the fix was
    cheap.  Starts easy and runs well.  
    
    A five horse will have some trouble with real heavy snow, though, like
    when you have soupy stuff at the bottom of about a foot or more of wet
    snow.  
    
    In my opinion chains are a must and will pay for themselves.  The five
    horse units are still pretty light, which is good for maneuvering, but
    not so good for traction.  Chains solve that problem...and as I recall,
    I paid @$25.00 a set back then and they  haven't been off the blower
    yet.
    
    Jim
    
    I think John Deere is reputable, so I don't think you could go wrong
    with either unit.

    Well, I went out and purchased a John Deere snowblower.  It is due to
    be delivered on Friday just before a predicted snowstorm.  I will
    report how I make out

    Re: .344
    
    You just changed the weather pattern so that you won't get any snow
    for three years.
    
    				Steve

    re: .345
    Don't be too sure.  I bought the biggest, meanest Toro snowblower I
    could find in the fall of 1977...and remember what happened in
    February of 1978!  I still remember going out to the barn after the
    blizzard, opening the door, firing up the beast, driving it out the
    door...and seeing it totally disapper into a drift.

    
    I inherited an old Ariens machine that was in our house when we bought
    it.  Not sure of the model, but it has a 4-speed transmission, chains,
    easily tows me around and throws snow 30ft right on to my neighbours'
    drive.
    
    Trouble is it runs on leaded gas.  I'm not really happy about using
    that (if I can even find it anywhere in Nashua NH). What will happen
    if I use unleaded?  Will it die quick or last me through this winter?
    Can these engines be easily converted to run on unleaded?
    
    Regards,
    
    Colin

    re .344, .345
    
    When my son entered the Navy in Dec 1987 I purchased a 7hp Simplicity
    blower.  This thing is geared for moving snow, 26" wide, can throw snow
    to forever, eats snow-plow embankments, pushes parked cars around,
    leaps buildings in a single bound, etc.
    
    Of course, Nashua has not seen anything over 6" at one time since then;
    we used to count on at least 1 at 12" per year.  The biggest problem I
    have now is what to do with the stale gas each spring.
    
    Best bloody insurance I ever bought.
    
    Dave

Re: .347

You should be able to get by with a "Lead substitute" additive which you
can find at discount department and automotive stores.

			Steve

Is it a 2 stroke?  If so, it doesn't have valves; so it doesn't need lead in
gas.

All car engines made after 1971 were designed to not need lead, this may
be true for consumer-destined engines of other types as well.

-Mike

    
    I think it's 4-stroke, but you make a good point - I'll check.
    The previous owner left a gas can labelled "leaded gas - for
    snowblower" - that's what tipped me off.
    
    Thnx
    
    Colin
    

RE: .147

Look at the engine data plate then call the engine manufacturer.

 They can tell you if unleaded is ok. 

    I doubt very much that it is a two stroke motor. They have not been
    used in home use machines very long. Honda was one of the first...and
    they haven't been around long at all. Compaired to B&S and the rest 
    of the companies that make small engines. Most likely the former owner
    used leaded fuel in it since it was new. Also most likely bought a car
    the used unleaded gas only...he labeled the can so as not to use the 
    leaded gas in his car. I owned a 1962 Snowbird that used a 6hp Briggs
    for power. After the snowblower died, I used the motor on pump for years, 
    some pretty severe use I might add, and it never let me down...I also
    used unleaded fuel too!. A 15 gal. tank that let the motor run 8 hrs. a
    day... several times a week for many summers to keep my garden moist.
    In fact I still have the motor...and it runs just fine.
    
    Jim

    
    OK Thanks for the advice - I think I'll get some of the additive,
    and also call the manufacturer & order a copy of the service manual.
    The plug's always oiled up.
    
    After I nearly tore an arm off starting this thing all last winter
    with the pulley, I took off the engine cover to find that it has
    an electric starter hidden under the cover :-O  Now I know what that
    other button is for......
    
    Regards,
    
    Colin
     

    Electric start...!
    
    you must be in sales or an bean counter.
    
    
    :-)
    
    
    
    TMW

    
    Naw - before I discovered the pulley I used to push-start it.
    That qualifies me only for engineering.  Besides this was a freebie,
    left by the previous owner, who (curiously) was in computer sales.
    (cue "Twighlight Zone" music).
    
    C
      

    re.-1
    I love it.....!
    
    Just think, you might get a chance to try it out this weekend. But as
    our luck will have it, the storm will most likely dump on the cape, where
    they need it for their ski industry.
    
    
    TMW
    
    speaking of freebie's ...I was given a Sears 8hp.x26"...not bad, all it
    needed was a couple of shear pins. The past owner said the trans. was
    broken.... Go figure. (he's in "Dec transportation" i.e. Dec Fleet)
                                                                     

    RE.347
    
    Lead is added to reduce engin knock...perhaps high octane will meet the
    need.  The increased cost may be less than the maintenance or additive
    costs.

    I thought lead was added to lubricate the valves.  Or does it do both?
    
    Jim

Re: .359

It does both.  A snowblower won't need the octane boost, but if it was
designed to run on leaded gas, its valves will wear faster on unleaded
unless you use a "lead substitute" additive.

			Steve

	    I'm thinking of buying a Toro electric snowthrower, model 1800.
	This is not an electric shovel.  Does anyone out there have one (or
	used one) and do they work?  The ad states that they will throw wet
	snow up to 30 feet.  

Re: .361

Yep, I have one, have had it for three years now.  I love it.  Yes, it can
throw up to 30 feet, though that's very dependent on the type and depth
of snow.  10-15 feet is not unusual, wet snow is less.  I find it much easier
to work with then a large gas-powered monster, though I wouldn't recommend
an electric for someone with a very long driveway (mine is 20x60) or where
one frequently gets more than 10 inches of snow.

Home Depot has them for $228, which is less than I paid for mine.

The one gripe I have is that the swivel chute tends to swivel itself back
to the straight ahead position if the snow is heavy, but that's easy to
correct.

				Steve

    One of the weathermen said the other day that 8 inches of snow on a
    50-foot driveway was about 4 tons.
    

    re:.364
    
    Using your example, (now I may be showing my ignorance here) but
    wouldn't that be 10' x 50' x .66' (8" of snow) for 330 cubic ft not 42
    cubic ft?  That would make it 20,625 lbs or 10 tons of snow.
    
    I can't figure out how you came up with 42 cubic ft (but then again I
    never did like math).
    
    -Bob

You're confusing volume of snow with volume of water.  The old saw is that
10" of snow equals 1" of rain, but that obviously varies a great deal.
I chose to assume that 8" of snow equals 1" of rain, which is probably
closer to the truth for last weekend's wet snow in New England.

    Oh well, I overlooked that minor detail.  (I did say I don't do math!
    :-) )  Now your calculation makes sense. . . So I was off by a factor
    of 8, so take away my birthday (please! :-) ).

    -Bob

    Need help diagnosing a problem with a 5 hp. Bolens 2-stage snowblower.
    The main front auger on the intake chute has a left and right side
    auger on either side of the drive box. One of the augers was rotating
    freely which I found to be a snapped off shear pin. The auger spun
    freely on the shaft.....so I repplaced the shear pin. 
    
    Now when I engage the auger drive -AND- the wheels, the engine stalls
    out from the load. However when I take the shear pin back out and run 
    with only 50% of the auger, the problem goes away.
    
    Any ideas????
    
    Jonathan

    RE: .368
    
    Sounds like the main jet on the carburator needs to be adjusted for a
    richer mixture. Or, the fuel supply is being reduced for some reason;
    i.e. dirt in the line.
    
    Marc H.

    re: .368
    
    Could be that something in the auger differential is bound up.
    If you replace the shear pin, and it stalls the engine when
    it tries to engage that auger, something is either bound or
    frozen inside the differential.  
    
    andy
    

    
    I would go with the last reply.  Does the shaft have bushings
    or bearing???  The pin sheared for a reason...
    
    JD

    Thanks for the suggestions so far.....
    
    The auger shaft uses bearing I believe
    
    What has me stumped is that other side of the differential
    works fine. And I assume that the shaft on the "dead" side
    was turning inside the auger tube. There is no binding of the
    auger itself since withjout the shear pin I can spin the auger freely
    on the differential shaft.For some reason the load of locking the auger 
    onto the shaft with the shear pin is introducing too much of a load.
    
    With the shear pin in place....I -CAN- engage the auger......
    but not with the wheel drive engaged. The -COMBINED-  load of the
    auger and wheels try to push into -LIGHT- snow, the engine poops
    out.
    
    Keep the suggestions coming....and thanks!
    
    Jonathan

From your info so far, I am assuming that the engine is in perfect operating
order.  So...

You might want to drain the oil from the differential and inspect it.
If it is full of metal nurdles (the official technical term :-) then you
have a $eriou$ problem and should take it to a qualified mechanic if you 
are not one.

It sounds to me from the info provided, that a bearing is no longer 
providing a low friction interface.

Also try the old mechanic's stethoscope.  Take a long handled screwdriver
and, if you can safely put the bit against the differential housing and the 
handle to your ear, you may be able to hear significant grinding noises made 
by a crumbling bearing.  Obviously, this has to be done with power passing
through the differential.  Avoid any whirring blades.  ;-)

Another possibility is the pin sheared when you tried to snowblow a rock 
or stick of significant size.  Now, shear pins are supposed to go before
expensive parts.  But...you may have had a strong shear pin and something 
inside the differential housing (say the shaft or the bearing mounts) may 
be bent.  The resulting poor alignment may require too much power when you 
have everything engaged.

Those are my guesses,
Stan

    Epilog:
    
    Reply .369 hit the proverbial nail on the head.........I ran the 
    snowblower with the choke partially closed to induce a rich condition.
    The snowblower ran fine....no stalling, and that's with both augers
    spinning now.  Thanks for the tip Mark H.
    
    Now to fix the problem properly, which screw on the carb. is for
    main jet mixture?? There's an adjustment screw (upside down) on the
    bottom of the carb bowl. There's another on the side of the carb
    towards the front of the snowblower. Which one's which???
    
    Thx,
    Jonathan

    RE: .374
    
    A carb usually has two. The main jet and the idle. You want to first,
    adjust the main jet, since that on controls the engine during
    normal use. The main jet is usually the one underneath that you
    talked about.  The idle jet is usually near the air intake of
    the carb. Also, the screw for the main is generally bigger than
    the idle mixture.
    
    While the snowblower is running at normal speed, adjust the main
    for smooth operation. WHen you think its ready, try moving
    the throttle from low to high. If its set right, the engine will
    smoothly pick up speed.
    
    Check the idle for smooth operation. Both jets react some with each
    other.
    
    Smooth operation can be found by slowly turning the screw one way
    or the other. You should have about a 1/4 turn "dead band" where the 
    engine is running smooth.
    
    This procedure should take about 5 min. or less. Also, let the engine
    warm up before you set the mixtures.
    
    Marc H.

    re: .374
    I usually turn the screw on the bottom of the carburetor bowl
    one way until the engine starts to complain, then the other way
    until the engine starts to complain, then set the screw midway
    between those points.  Have the engine at about mid-throttle
    when you do this.

    	Hmmm...That's a little different from what I was told and what I
    did to adjust mine. I set the throttle up pretty high (where I normally
    run it to move snow) and turned the screw until the engine started
    running rough. Then I turned the screw back about a quarter turn and
    left it there.

    Whatever works...this ain't rocket science, as they say....
    

I have a 10 year old  Toro 5/24 Snowblower. In one of the recent storms the 
left tire came off the rim. Obviously it needs to be remounted or at worst 
replaced.

I removed the locking pin but the wheel did not come off. I tried a couple of 
liberal doses of WD40 to clean and free the axel but it still is stuck fast. I 
used a big wrecking bar to try to lever the wheel off but have not used a 
lump hammer yet as I dont want to damage the wheel.

Does any one have any suggestions on how to get the wheel off!! 

    
    
    ....you might have to try some heat.....

>                     <<< Note 1508.379 by VOLAPM::HAIGH >>



Let the air out of the tire, break the tire bead and use a large gear puller.

Ross

    Can't help you - we bought the same model (ten years old but with a
    rebuilt engine), and this year my husband decided it would be a lot
    nicer if it had tire chains on it so it could crawl up our steep
    drioveway from the plow ridge back into the garage on its own steam. 
    So he took the wheels off and isntalled chains on them - they came
    right off, no problem!
    
    /Charlotte

    Personally, I'm not terribly impressed by WD-40; you might try some
    other kind of penetrating oil.

    Liquid wrench spray or squirt can works good as does CRC-56..
    A friend swears by Break away but I have never used it...I too
    am not terribly impressed with WD-40 but it is better than nothing.
    
               Dean

My In-Law just give me a OLD Arien Snowblower. This unit was one of the first
model that Arien came out with in the 60's. I think the Serial # is in the 500. 

Anyway, the engine is shot on it and I am wonder is it worth replacing. If it
is, where can I have the engine replace or get an engine and do the work my
self.

Dave

    You might check the Northern Hydraulics catalog; their ad appears
    in things like Popular Mechanics, etc.  They sell replacement
    gasoline engines of various styles, one of which might fit your
    snowblower.

    Northern Hydraulics
    P.O. Box 1499
    Burnsville MN 55337
    1-800-533-5545
    
    You'll need the following info. to help ID the correct engine:
    
    Make (Briggs & Stratton or Tecumseh)
    Model and Serial Number
    Hoizontal or Vertical Shaft (probably horizontal if for snowblower)
    Output Shaft Diameter and Length
    Width of Keyway 

    I have an old Ariens 8HP snowblower that I don't use anymore - want the
    engine? Make me an offer.
    
    Bill Servey
    297-2705

Looking for updated information on new Snowblowers 1993-1994

5+Hp.   24+"   2-stage   Elect.Start    Chains   =$$Price & performance

Regards,
John Potucek
285-3415

    	John,
    
    	I too am in the market for a new snowblower. The following is the
    research that I have done.
    
    	8HP Honda 28"	    $1600	Nice machine, ect...
    -->	10HP JohnDeere 32"  $1500  	Bigger, better, made in USA
    	8Hp Ariens 28"	    $1600  	It's not a Honda, or deere.
    
    	I am going to go with the Deere. We have one here at DEC (WMO) and
    it is a nice machine. The engine isn't a Honda, but it is made here,
    and a little cheaper for more HP, and size.
    
    	Just MHO.

    I purchased a John Deere snowblower last winter.  I believe it has a
    5hp engine and a 24" cutting path.  I think I paid around $900
    including the electric start.
    
    We had a "good" winter last year and it got a lot of use.  It started
    every time (both with and without the electric start).  If I had to do
    it all over again I would purchase the same one.

    My Toro 724, going on 15 years old, is still doing fine.  Ariens
    also has a good reputation.  Don't worry too much about distinguishing
    among Deere, Toro, Ariens, or whatever.  Any of the top brands is
    probably going to be okay.  I suggest you look more at the *dealer*,
    rather than the particular brand.  Choose the dealer that can give
    you the best follow-up service; the thing will need repairs once in
    a while, no matter what kind it is.
    

I bought a Toro 5 Hp 22" last winter (mid-year - the most expensive time)
for $780.  I joke with my co-worker about how well it works - I didn't get a
snowfall with more than 1" accumulation after buying the snowblower, so I
didn't use it at all and my driveway stayed clear.  My co-worker is 1000'
elevation above me and had 2' drifts to clear.

Now if it will only keep the driveway clear that easily every year ;-).

    
    While Honda equipment is well made, I believe you are also paying for
    their name. I think Deere equipment is every bit as good and in many
    cases better.
    
    				Kenny
    

    I like to but USA products. Try the Deere
    
    Marc H.

Honda power equipment is made in Ohio.  Indeed, it is not made anywhere else
in the world.  Much John Deere equipment is imported.

				Steve

    Re: .396
    
    Hummmmm......is the honda components made in USA or the equipment
    assembled in ohio?
    
    Marc H.

    
      The engines at least, are imported from Japan. And even if they
    weren't, the high paying engineering jobs are in Japan, not USA. But
    lets not rathole this into a 'Made in USA/Not made in USA' thing.
    
    				Kenny

My understanding is that the engines are made at another plant in Ohio.
Do not assume that what holds for cars holds for snowblowers.

				Steve

re         <<< Note 1508.389 by SALEM::POTUCEK "Earth Day is Everyday" >>>
                  -< looking for updated Snowblower info.... >-

re my earlier reply 1508.348

I purchased the Simplicity after considerable research, it appeared to have the 
best value/$.  It's heritage is farm equipment; it is rugged and has been 
reliable.  You can find Simplicities at Agway dealers.

luck,

Dave

    
       I worked for a John Deere dealer on the side a while back.Most of
    the lawn tractors were coming thru with Kawasaki motors.What was
    suprising was putting together the smaller farm tractors like the
    650-750 size.They came in a crate straight from Kubota in Japan!Check
    the serial # plate,it usually said who built  it and where.
                                                      John
    

I bought a Simplicity about 5 years ago. Works fine, no problems.
Bought mine at Still's in Manchester, NH.

    I notice that Troy-Bilt is now selling a snowblower.  Their
    rototillers sure are good....
    

	Troy-bilt is now owned by Bolens, FWIW.

	Roy

>	Troy-bilt is now owned by Bolens, FWIW.

And they're the same machine, just different colors... (or so said the
dealer).

Dan (owner of a Troy-built tractor and snow blower)

    .386 reply - fyi.....
    
    >>>Honda power equipment is made in Ohio.
    
    Honda power equipment is made in North Carolina..... I just bought a
    new mower, and a few years back they made a new factory in NC.

re: .404

I believe it's the other way around.  Bolens is now owned by
Garden Way, Inc., the manufacturer of Troy-Built garden equipment.

The Bolens and Troy-Built snowblowers and lawn mowers are generally, model 
for model, the same except for color, and possibly the painting
materials and process.  The designs come from Bolens.

   Gary

    	What does a Troy-Built snowblower cost, about $5000? Sure they make
    good stuff, but I've never taken out the second mortgage to pay for
    their stuff.

    re: .408
    
    No, at the Bolton fair I saw a 10hp Troybilt snowblower for $1399.00.
    

    Where is a good place to buy a snowblower in the Nashua area? I tried
    Hammer Hardware but they were out of anything larger than the  power
    shovel type.
    
    My preference is for a John Deere, Toro or Ariens. I have seen a Bolens
    and it looked pretty nice but I don't know anything about them except
    what was mentioned in some previous notes.
    
    Thanks

Osgoods hardward in Downtown Nashua. They sell JD, Smplicity and Ariens. 

It's down the street from CVS.

Dave

I bought a White 850 (8hp 28"auger) at the beginning of November
and have had a blast with what little snow we have already gotten.

I checked out the following:

Ariens 828  $1250  on sale   options were expensive (no light, no electric)
Toro   828  $1375  ($125 back from factory)  light, electric start were extra
John Deere  828 $1199 with light, electric, 3 months no interest, 1yr parts
White  850  $1199  with light, electric, 5 months no interest, 2yr full warranty

All of the above had the same Tecumsah 8hp Snow Tiger engine.

Honda 826  $1499  light, electric, "hydrastatic shift" (one lever shift/throttle)

These were all in the Worcester, MA area.

    
    Does anyone know where the oil drain plug is on the Ariens Sno-Thro 
    10995? (7hp Tecumsah engine).  This came with the house, & I have
    no owners manual for it.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Colin
    
    

    UHGGG!! I'm tired of winter and tired of shoveling snow!!! It's time
    I bought a snowblower...if not for this winter, certainly for next.
    
    I have a 12hp Deere lawn tractor.
    
    I want to use the snowblower to do a fairly flat 50' double wide drive.
    That's the easy part. I also want to blow off a path around the house
    and garage. Still, fairly flat. And, I also want to clear a path up
    a sizable incline in my 400' backyard (about a 200' run and a 20' rise)
    then make a diagonal pathway toward the low point in the yard. This 
    is to control water runoff from a large supply of latent water.
    
    The question here is: To go with a large hand blower (say a 10hp
    something) or, get an attachment for the tractor (new or used)?
    What are the pro's and con's of tractor vs manual?

    re: tractor blower vs hand blower
    
    Tractor blowers are great if you've got a lot of long, straight
    runs.  Problem is, the tractor + blower is very long and hard to
    turn.  Given what you describe, a hand blower is the best bet,
    I believe.  I have an 8hp 24" Bolens with blizzard pak (housing
    with windshield, light, heated handlebars, electric start) that
    also has a differential that allows you to turn the unit very
    easily.  This seems to tackle just about any snow I that gets
    thrown at it, for paths, driveways, etc.  Another problem with
    tractor snowblowers is they're typically single-stage, which means
    the main auger also throws the snow, which puts a real strain on
    the belts and the engine of the tractor.  Most larger hand thrower
    units are 2 stage, which means the auger feeds to a smaller thrower
    fan/blade - seems to do a much better job.
    
    andy
    

    Wow Andy.
    
    I like that setup.  Heated handlebars also!  Wish I had that on mine.
    
    Wouldn;t it be nice if they could take it a step further and
    invent a remote controlled unit using virtual reality attached
    to your pc inside your warm house!!!
    
    Mark

    
    I had pretty much the same problem you do and I chose to get a 12hp
    snowblower. (I need a track around the house to get to the
    birdfreeders and our 16 year old dog needs it 'cause she's getting
    pretty fragile...and there's another track to the compost bin.)
    
    I agree with andy and would also point out that by the time
    you buy the snowblower attachments for the tractor, plus wheel weights,
    you aren't saving much if any money over the price of the standalone
    snowblower. Add to that the bother of switching to and from
    mowing/snowblowing mode, plus the fact that cold weather operation
    beats a 12hp tractor pretty badly, and the choice was clear to me.
    
    JP

	Having used a tractor-mounted snowblower in the past, I would go for
	the separate unit. We had problems with traction (the extra weight
	up front doesn't help the rear-wheel drive at all, even with wheel
	weights and chains), and as Andy said, a single-stage just doesn't
	get the job done. 

	Also, the lights on the tractor were obscured by the snow thrower
	attachment -- not a problem on separate units.

	An attachment might work better on a tractor larger than 12 hp, but
	then if I had something like an 18hp I'd think about a plow...

	Roy

    Can anybody suggest a good (inexpensive) source of tire chains for
    my old Bolens snowblower. I have set now but one keeps break and
    falling off. I checked with Mass Hardware in Acton and they quoted
    a staggering $60/pair.....only available in pairs.
    
    Thx,
    Jonathan

    I have a 12.5 sears tractor with the blower. Go with the seperate
    blower. The tractor blower is a pain to put on, a pain to turn, and
    when I tried to do a path through my yard i Just got stuck.
    Like a previous note stated for the same price you can get a seperate
    blower and save the wear and tear on the tractor.
    The only reason I got the attachment is it was free and it has sure
    beat shoveling. But i'm thinking of buying a seperate blower next year.
    Mike
    

    re:Chains
    Have you tried using an old pair of car tire chains?  I made a few
    sets up for my ATV's.  Also, I think JCW might have some....
    
    re: tractor mounts
    IMHO, if your going to use a tractor, get someting with a little
    power and wight.  The old 9N ford was replaced with a 38hp,4WD unit.
    
    JD

    I would go with the seperate unit. I have used both, and the 8hp.
    walk-behind works good for going around the house and cutting paths.
    
    Jim
    
    btw, I borrowed a small gas powered snow thrower(75lbs) and cleaned off 
    my roof last weekend...sure beats shoveling. (sure scared the stuffing
    out of my cats and dog) 

    
    I'VE UNFORTUNATLY HAD THE CHANCE TO USE BOTH *A LOT*, I PREFER
    THE TRACKS OVER THE WHEELS. MY DRIVEWAY WAS SO STEEP,IT WAS HARD
    TO WALK IN THE SNOW WITHOUT FALLING DOWN. BOTH GOT UP,BUT I HAD
    TO FIGHT WITH THE WHEELED BLOWER,WHILE THE "TRACKED" BLOWER
    ACTUALLY HELPED TO PULL ME UP. I ALSO FOUND THAT WITH THE WHEELS,
    THE BLOWER SEEMED TO BOUNCE UP AND DOWN A LOT.(PIVOTING ON THE WHEEL AXIS).
    
    NOTE THAT THE WHEELED WAS 5HP. THE TRACKED WAS 3HP.
    
    JUST MY OPINION.
    
    

    I have a real steep driveway, too.  Our rebuilt old snowblower got a
    whole lot easier to use when we got tire chains for it.
    
    /Charlotte

I'm in the market for a snowblower and am leaning toward the Troy-Built 8HP
(preseason $1168 w/electric start @ Hammar Hardware in Nashua). I also ran
across a Noma 8HP w/electric start for $717 @ Home Depot. Both come with 
the same Tecumseh Snow-King engine. The Troy appears to be built a little 
better and offers a limited slip differential and 7-year limited warranty
(exlcudes engine which is covered by Tecumseh) vs the 2-year warranty for
the Noma, but I wonder if its worth the extra $450? What is most likely
to break/wearout on a snowblower? If it's the engine, it would seem the
Noma would offer good value, but if its the other stuff (auger/driveshaft/etc)
then the Troy would be better. Will Noma parts/service availaility be a real
problem? Any Troy & Noma experiences out there?

Thanks,
- Dave

Does anyone have experience using a Toro (equipped with the differential kit)
on steep inclines?  I'm interested in knowing just how easily one wheel loses
power.

The majority of my driveway is relatively level except for a small steep
section.  I'm planning on buying the 1132 and a differential would certainly
help when maneuvering the machine in and out of the garage.  However, I can't
afford to lose power to one of the wheels while making my way up the driveway.

Tracy

When I was looking at snowblowers earlier this year, one dealer told me that
he used to carry Noma (since they were cheap) but gave it up when the return
rate edged towards 80%.  Of course, one has to take that for what it's worth.

I was looking for a 5HP model and it came down to the Troy-Bilt and the
Toro.  They're close in price and features, but I picked the Troy-Bilt because
I thought the materials and build quality was better and I liked the auger
design better (Toro has what they call a "drum auger" that is smaller.  They
say it's less prone to clogging than the "ribbon auger" that others use, but
it looked to me as if it would hurt the overall performance.)  Also, the
Troy-Bilt has a 7-year warranty vs. 2-year for Toro.

I've also been told that for larger snowblowers (8HP or so), Ariens has
an excellent reputation.

				Steve

>>I've also been told that for larger snowblowers (8HP or so), Ariens has
>>an excellent reputation.

Maybe starting at 7HP?  My father has one.  He has had it for as long as I can
remember which makes it 20+ years old.  The only problem with it, the B&S
engine does not like to start from time to time, but the clutch, and the 
front end are going as strong now as the first day he brought it home.

bjm

    FWIW, Consumer reports rates the Toro 824 as their top blower.  I
    checked the price last night at Coala in Worcester - 1375 w/elec start.
    
    Bob

Just keep in mind that CU doesn't test every model, that many models tested
may be considered of equivalent quality (but someone has to be first on the
list), and that their method of assigning rank may differ from yours.  I
am a long-time subscriber to Consumer Reports, but I understand the limitations
of blindly picking the top of the list.

					Steve

I saw a track model at Wall-Mart yesterday that was trick and was under $900 
electric start and all.

David

    
    re .424  Toro, Diff.
    
    Isn't there a differential lock?  My old Ariens has one, but I never
    have any slippage problems, even on a very steep drive.
     

                                         
    RE: What brand to buy...
    
    IMHO, being able to drive to (and walk in) a local Snowblower shop
    for the part I need is a ****VERY, VERY, VERY*** important feature in 
    a snowblower (being that Murphy's Law says they will only break when you
    need them MOST!!!) Sticking with a name brand machine such as Ariens, Toro,
    etc, is a wise move (Look in your phone book). I'd buy a used  popular
    "name brand" machine before I'd buy a Walmart or Caldor Special "Off
    brand". The engine parts are usually easy to get (Briggs, Tecumseh sp?) but
    the chasis parts might have to be mailordered. With 2+ feet of heavy
    snow on my driveway, I wouldn't want to wait days or weeks for parts.
    (Can you tell I used to own an off brand, which was impossible to get
     parts for!!! I gave it away...) ;^)
    
    If you really want new...Buy one NOW (or at least reserve one). I'm
    sure it will be a record (sold out) year for snowblowers at most
    places in New England...
    
                            
    FWIW,
    Charlie

    re: .432.  YES!  If (or rather, WHEN) your snowblower needs work...
    who is going to work on it?  The clerk at Wal-Mart?  
    

Re: .432

I agree - this is why I've put my deposit down at Hammar Hardware.

If you have a "Wal-Mart" snowblower, you can probably get it worked on by
some local repair shop, but parts are not likely to be kept in stock.

And yes, do get your reservation in now.  When the snow hits, you'll be
hard pressed to find them.  Also, you can get "pre-season" prices now.

					Steve

    
    
     I bought the 8hp NOMA at Home Depot. Their price is $717.00, but if
    you mention BJs price of $699.00 they'll match it and knock off an
    additional 10%. The unit looks good. 27" path, Tecumseh Snow King
    motor, push button start, 6 forward, 2 reverse, dual/single wheel
    drive, 16" snow Hawg Tires. Price seems cheap, but it's all I can
    afford right now. I like the Toro's, and Ariens, but just can't afford
    them. Three mechanics I talked to said if any snow blower
    is properly taken care of they should last 20 years plus. They all
    said stay away from the Sears brand even though it's a NOMA ( MURRAY )
    only sears can service it they can't.
    
    re .423 - Parts for the NOMA should not be a problem. NOMA was bought
             by Murray 6 months ago. I seen somewhere that Murray is the #1
             Lawn Mower Co. with MTD right behind them.
    
    re .432 - ditto on buying now. Every place that I've talked to 
              has long lists for new blowers, many waiting to be tuned up,
              and many people on their lists looking for used snow blowers.
              Everyone is expecting a bad winter.
    
    re. 433 - I did the yellow pages test mentioned earlier for the NOMA
              snow blowers. I called 5 dealers in my area. Three mainly do
              service, and they said they base their business on sales from
              HQ, Home Depot, and the WAL-Mart type stores. They're seeing
              more and more sales  coming in from these stores, and expect
              it to drastically continue.
    
    
    Anyone have questions on NOMA ( Murray ) call 1-800-247-7464
    
       
    

Check out ethe AReien, John Deere and Simplicity and Osgood in downtown, NH. NE
Outdoor Power equipment does the service on them and if you look out side, all
you will see is Ariens. My Father in law has one since the 60's and it just
died last year. The serial number on it was #181. I just got a Ariens 824 this
year and I can not wait for the snow.
      
Also, I have heard that you should go with the electric start on a snowblower.
As the engine gets old, it's pretty hard to get a blower started with a put
start.



Dave

Let it snow, Let it Snow, Let it Snow .....

    RE:.423

    	Despite everybody's advice not to buy Noma I'd have to tell you the
    opposite.  I bought a 10hp Noma with a 33 inch cut last year just before 
    the storms hit and couldn't be happier.  It took everything last winter 
    threw at it and asked for more.  I've about 170 feet of driveway with the 
    last 30 or so feet wide enough for 3 vehicles and it did it effortlessly.  
    Spend more money for that brand name if you like but IMHO all your 
    getting extra is the name.  Of course regular maintenance for any brand 
    machine is a must if you want it to last.

    Joe
      

	    Another plug for the `buy now' advice.  Saw an article a few 
	weeks back to the effect that the manufacturers orders surpass 
	their production.  After last winter, the stores are trying to
	stock up.

					Tim

>          <<< Note 1508.437 by STRATA::JOERILEY "Legalize Freedom" >>>
>                  -< If you got the bucks to throw away..... >-

It all depends if you want a piece of machinery that's a throw away after 8-10
years or a model that will last 20-25 with a chassis rugged enough to be 
re-powered when the original Techumseh breaks it's connecting rod. I've been
repairing snowblowers for a few years and there's a big difference in quality.
Some of those Home Depot, BJ machines are pretty flimsy!


Ross     

I would think any mechanical thing (snowblower, lawnmower, car...) works well
when it's new. But I would think that there is a leaser percentage of people
that has own a Murry, Norma, etc... types of snowblower for more then 10 years
then ones with an Ariens, Toro, etc... owner. 

Getting parts for a new snowblower is usually no problem. But try getting a
part after the unit is 5 years old. My neighbor has a 3 year old Murry lawn
mower and purchased a Murray mulching kit for it. The problem was the insert to
cover the bag chute did not fit so he is trying to find one now. The last thing
I want is my snowblower I need it most.

IMO, I would rather pay a few hundered $ more for a name brand now then buy a
new machine every 5-10 years. 

David

    I bought a Toro last year at Hammar Hardware.  Fairly happy with it,
    but it was a pain in the bum when there was wet snow.  Exit shoot 
    constantly froze up, and I had to stop unit and dislodge with a stick
    or something. (It seems that the real wet snow/ice jammed together to
    make an ice pack that completely jammed shoot).
    
    I would not recommend anything made by Murray.  Cheaply constructed,
    inferior grade parts.  I was a Manager for K_mart for 12+ years.  
    During this time I sold many items made by Murray. (Mainly lawn mowers
    and bicycles).  There is an old saying - "You get what you pay for"
    Although I do not agree 100% of the time, I do think that this saying 
    has much merit, especially with Murray products.  A few good years out
    of each, and then things start to fall apart.   You must weigh the
    usage against the difference in price.  I.E., Will the difference in
    price be worth the aggrevation that you will generally be faced with.
    
    FWIW, I heard on the radio this morning taht Benson's Hardware in Derry
    commented that they had sold some 45+ snowblowers already, and that
    they will not be able to get any more Toro's beyond their original 
    commitment.  Benson's said that they normally do not sell this many 
    snowblowers until late October or so.   Anyone who is looking to get 
    one better purchase or place an order now, if they want to get what
    model they desire.
    
    Just my opinion.
    
    Randy

    
    	I purchased a Toro 824 last night at Caola in Worcester.  He
    mentioned that Toro has already stopped making snowblowers and is
    ramping up lawnmower and tractors.  The middle guys have all the 
    machines they are going to get and then the dealers would have the
    last of them and this year, that may be October.  The prices start
    increasing beginning today, 01Sep.
    
    	Price: 		$1300
    	Electric Start:    50 (now $75)
        Snow cab: 	  140
    
    	I like the "power drive" feature and drum auger.  Unit is delivered
    ready to use, with gas and oil and training. (never got training on my
    Deere lawn tractor...:-) Of course, you could by two NOMAs for the
    above price but I didn't like the construction as much. It was a tough
    decision but I hope I errored on the side of future maintainability.
    Caola will also pick up and repair the unit free while under warranty
    and I don't pay for the blower until March95.

re: -.1 - I found that spraying the chute liberally with various kinds of
lubricant would prevent the wet snow stickies. I tried WD-40, CRC-60,
Pam, window lube... most anything worked. 

I used a 7hp Ariens to do apartment parking lots years ago. I was so
impressed that when we moved to NH I bought my own 8hp Ariens. Used it
for about ten years, replaced it with a Sears tractor-mounted
single-stage blower because the tractor deal seemed good. The Sears
blower was junk. 

I move snow with a bucket on my John Deere now. I paint the inside of the
bucket with drain oil applied with a 4" paint brush to avoid stickyness.
I bet you do the same thing to the inside of a blower chute and get the same
benefit.

Art

    
    Few quick notes here for people buying snow blowers. 
    
    If you don't like NOMA don't buy the following :
    
       SEARS
       AGWAY
       John Deere
       Estate
       Western Auto
       Brute
    
      They're all made by NOMA
    
    Re. 439 - Somewhere someone needs to define flimsy. I had a dealer
              take a TORO, and a NOMA grab the front of the snow blower
              opening and show how one was stiffer than the other. Then
              stating that shows how to detect the cheaper one. But when we          
              took a sheet metal guage and checked the thickness on the TORO,
              standard NOMA, and the Signature Series NOMA ( more on this
              later ) where all the same, and they had the same motors. I    
              would like to see Consumer Reports comment on this in the
              future, and have sent that to them.
    
    re. 440 - Murray Bought the Rights to NOMA. Hopefully they did not
              change the quality of the parts too.
    
      
    NOMA Signature Series - The dealers sell this model of Snowblower.
                  The basic visual differences are :
                         Steel Saw Tooth Spiral Auger
                         headlight
                         double reinforced skid shoes
                         more rubber on the controls
                         remote on the shute deflector
                         drift cutters
    
    BJs as of 9/1/94 was sold out of 8HP 27" NOMA's ( 200 hundred of them )
    they do have 3,5,10, and 12HP from what I'm told. They're not getting
    any more. Mine's in the truck, where's the snow :-)
    
    
      Something else to note here on discounts : as I mentioned in
     an earlier note if you mention BJ's is selling the same Snow blower
     for $699.00 They'll match the price, and give you 10%. Then they've
     been mailing out pre-approved credit card applications with a 10%
     discount coupon on your first purchase. If you get one of those in the
     mail they accept that too for a total of 20% off the $699.00 price.
    
      HQ is also selling NOMA, DYNAMARK, and YARDSMAN ( I think that's what 
      I saw )
    

    There's an ad in today's Nashua Telegraph for the 8HP NOMA you
    mention; the ad is good for $150 off at Nault's in Manchester.
    (It didn't say what the regular price is.)
    
    				Steve

    RE: You get what you pay for.

    	Some years back (10-11-12 I'm not sure) I purchased a used 5hp snow
    blower (it was 13 years old) I believe the name was snow bird I'm not 
    really sure but it was a name I'd never heard of, I bought it for two 
    reasons 1, it was cheap and 2, it looked like it had been taken care of.
    This blower is still running doing what it was made for at my sons
    house (I gave it to him after buying a 10hp Noma last year).  That's
    well over 2 decades of use and still going from an off the wall brand 
    that just had adequate maintenance.  So you folks that are hung up on 
    having a big brand name on the cowling of your equipment keep right on 
    buying it because it'll make you happy and it'll keep the price down 
    even lower on the no name stuff that I buy.  I want to thank you all for 
    that great buy on my new Noma snow blower last year I couldn't have done 
    it without you.  The bottom line in my opinion is most any machine will
    last, as long as you take care of it.

    Joe   

>          <<< Note 1508.446 by STRATA::JOERILEY "Legalize Freedom" >>>
>                         -< Whatever works for you... >-

 Sno-birds were good old machines, don't put them in the same category as the
junk sold by the discount houses. I judge flimsy as placing my foot on the
corner of the blower housing and without much effort flex the housing. (Try 
doing that on my 20 year old Bobcat snowblower)! 
Most components in these bargain blowers are very light weight and cheap. These 
machines will move snow, but after 8-10 good seasons they'll be worn and 
replacements parts will be hard to come by. Try finding a drive disk or a 
impeller shaft bearing for a 10 year old MTD.

Ross

    I think it's important to look closely at what you buy.
    Many manufacturers offer quite a range of quality.  Most
    want to have an entry-price product that competes with
    the discount store brands.  Often there is a big difference
    in quality between the bottom and the top of the line.

    I bought a Noma tractor at the beginning of this season.
    It has a Kohler 2-cylinder engine, with pressure lubrication,
    oil filter, four-wheel steering, alemite grease fittings
    everywhere, etc.  I am very pleased.  After having a BS
    engine fail after one season of use on a pump, I'm very
    sensitive to engine characteristics.

    Shortly after that, I saw another Noma with the same size
    cutting deck, and it was $600 less than I paid.  I kicked
    myself.  Then I looked at it more closely.  To me, it was
    comparable to a murry -- splash lubricated BS engine, no
    4-wheel steering, no grease fittings, ill-fitting sheet metal
    trim, etc.

    If I had seen the second tractor first, I would have just
    dismissed the Noma brand, out of hand.

    Similarly, I might dismiss toro, just from their 'power
    shovel'...

    There is a 'real' noma dealer in Townsend, I can't think of
    the name, but they do 'inserts' on my cable system.

    I was chatting with one of the 'garden' employees at
    HomeDepot (in Nashua) about 3 weeks ago, and he told
    me they had already sold 40 snowblowers.  He hadn't expected
    to sell many until October.

    Ok,,,here's my spin on it.
    
    The cheaper products (Murry $699) should last lets say an average of 7
    years....say Simpilcity $1400 lasts 20 with some replacement parts.
    You could use up the Murry,,,throw it away,,,buy another Murry with the
    latest bells and whistles and still be ahead of the game........
    ($699 + $799 = $1498) or have the much better quality machine that will
    look old and tired after 20 years but still run well.
    
    To my thinking (only because I repair everything I ever buy myself) I
    would rather work on something that has quality and parts are
    available. I own a 30 year old Ariens and just bought a Simplicity lawn
    tractor............
    
    
                                            -Steve

    
    All snow storms for the next 20 years have been reduced to a 1"
    per week accumulation, for the new england area. 
    
    

    My vote goes to the big names, or at least Ariens.  I bought a used 7
    HP machine 9 years ago, and used it for several years on a very long
    driveway attached to a huge parking lot.  I've sheared a few pins, both
    to the auger and the thrower (impeller?), replaced the 2nd stage shaft 
    bearing, and tune the engine up yearly.  Aside from that I've had no
    problems, and it runs like a champ (including the electric start).  
    
    The kicker is this...I thought the machine was about 8 years old when I
    got it, making it about 17 yrs old now.  But when I was getting tune up
    parts from the dealer, he checked the serial number and told me the
    machine was made in the mid '60s!  So it's about 30 years old, and they
    still sell all (most?) of the parts for it.
    
    
    /Jon

    As far as brand names, I have to mention Sears. I have a 2 hp (yes, 2),
    two-stroke engine, snowthrower. It is about 15 years old and still
    works fine. As mentioned in this string several times, if you take care
    of the machine and, I might add, don't abuse  the machine, it will take
    care of you.
    
    I still mix my gas and oil carefully, drain the tank each year, change
    the plug every 14 years, and push it thru the snow slowly. It never
    threw snow far, but it beats a shovel. And my driveway is also over
    100' long in suburban Boston.
    
    Last year, I thought I had broken a cam of some sort and brought it to
    a repair shop. They refused to service it, saying the machine had only
    been designed for a lifetime of 7-8 years and it wouldn't be worth
    their while nor my money to repair such an old machine. And, he did not
    have a new one to sell either. FWIW, some packed snow in the pull-rope
    system melted overnight and the machine ran fine the rest of the
    season.
    
    Treat the machine well is a common theme throughout these notes.

    re:446 >>snow bird I'm not really sure but it was a name I'd never heard of
    
    Ditto to Ross' statement of these being "good old machines". These are
    more like an Ariens or Toro than an "el cheapo" brand. Like I said,
    a quality used machine is the best buy going in my book.(But I know
    this route isn't for everyone.)
    
    I'm sure decent used machines are going fast this year too...The Want
    Advertiser comes out on Tuesdays and usually has a few, (if you don't mind
    driving to check out a few dogs with fleas before you buy a goodie!!!) :^)
    
    It has been my experience that many major parts on the "name brands"
    remain the same on the newer models as the older ones, making part stocking
    and availability pretty easy as the years pass. The "off brands" seem to
    change design (or manufacturers if they don't make their own) every few
    years making parts very difficult to get in many instances. Make sure
    you **save those manuals** with parts breakdowns and numbers. The used "off
    brand" I bought came with no book, and the sticker with with the model
    number has long since peeled off....When asking for parts I was SOL.
    
    
    /Charlie                       
                                                                        

    They don;t make them like they used too!  They never did...
    
    I have a 20+ year old Gilson Blower with an 8hp briggs engine, built
    like a tank.  Should last another 10-20 years I hope...
    
    Mark

    do you know you guys are sounding like your parents?  

	To paraphrase Mark Twain, "when I was young my father didn't know
	much. By the time I grew up, it was amazing how smart he'd become."

	Roy

    
    re: .455    Sound like my parents? Who me? Naaaaaaa........
    
     Now you be quiet and eat all your supper or no dessert for you!!!
    
    :^)
    
   /Charlie 

    RE: .449
    
    >The cheaper products (Murry $699) should last lets say an average of 7
    >years....say Simpilcity $1400 lasts 20 with some replacement parts.
    >You could use up the Murry,,,throw it away,,,buy another Murry with the
    >latest bells and whistles and still be ahead of the game........
    >($699 + $799 = $1498) or have the much better quality machine that will
    >look old and tired after 20 years but still run well.
    
    Steve,

    If each unit will last 7 years, you are only up to 14 year with 2 Murray 
    while the top brand is at 20 years. You would need another new Murray at 
    14 years to get to beyond 20 years. Therefore you will be spending
    $699+$799+$899=$2397 to get 21 years with Murry vs $1400 for over 20
    years with a name brand. 

    All I know is, I just fired up my 6/7 years old Ariens 524 that my In-law
    got for me the other day and it kicked right on. I though it was a 8hp
    but the auger is a 24" housing system just like the 824 unit. So I can't
    complaint since it's free. Now all I need is chains.
         
    Dave 

    I've just picked up a Ariens 7hp snow blower for a pretty reasonable
    price.
    
    When it is running there are sparks down by the front near the two
    clutches.  Taking that housing off I can see that the main clutch or what
    ever disables the drive shaft and a piece of metal pushes against the 
    largest pully.
    
    It does look as though it was designed to do that, but is there
    something that goes between that metal tab and the pulley?  Will I
    always have sparks when running the machine?
    
    Cal

    
    re: -.1
    
    Cal,
    
    I take it this is a used machine? I'm having a hard time picturing 
    exactly what you're describing but it almost sounds like a stretched
    out belt that is allowing the belt tensioner to overtravel and scrape
    against the pulley. Is the "piece of metal" connected to a spring 
    and does it move if you push against it (with the machine OFF of
    course!!! :^)
    
    /Charlie 

    re458: ....that's why I have an Ariens and a Simplicity. I just thought
    I would put in a good word for the other route.
    
    BTW, alot of engine failures occur on some of the cheaper units because
    they are used on steep hilly terrain and do not have an oil pump to
    keep the engine lubed. This is why I went with the Simplicity Mower.
    The Ariens is 25 years old from my dad. Never even sheared a pin on it.
    ....just tune up and belt replacement and lube was all it ever had.
    
                                         -Steve

    Charlie,
    
    Yes it is a used machine, but solid as a rock.  Everything works well
    except for the sparks.
    
    Let's see.. looking at the right side of the machine you have the hood
    over the auger followed by the drive shaft cover then the pulley cover,
    followed by the engine.
    
    Looking at the point where the pulley cover sits one can see sparks
    when the clutches are engaged.
    
    I took off the Pulley cover and noticed that there isn't a problem with
    the pulley, belt clutch, it's when the lever that engages the main
    shaft is engaged.  There is a metal tab that sits against the main
    pulley that wen disengaged pushes against the main pulley and keeps it
    from turning, locks it.
    
    Wehn it is engage the matal tab does move enough to allow that main
    pulley to turn, but it is riding against the main pulley causing
    sparks.
    
    Now does this mean there is suppose to be a covering on the tab, does
    it need to be greased, is the an adjustment to move it further from the
    pulley when it's engaged or is it alright?
    
    Cal

    I started shopping for a new blower last week. Looks like if you want
    one you need to complete your competitive shopping within the next 2-3
    weeks or your decision will become much easier (there won't be any
    selection).
    
    NOMA makes 76 different lines of blower to each re-sellers line of
    specs. NOMA makes John Deere, but there are noticable differences. The
    John Deere is more money, and it may be worth it. Some of the things I
    noticed was a cast iron auger transmission and better bearing plates on
    the JD, as well as a better (IMHO) method of directing the snow chute. 
    The transmission internals are supposedly different as well but you
    can't visually compare them. The NOMA Signature series looks like an
    impressive package for the money. Everyone is using Tecuseth SNo-King
    engines so there isn't much to compare there.
                             
    I don't like the Toro becuase of the barrel/drum auger, my own personal
    experience is in heavy wet snow it climbs over the snow rather the cut
    through it. The Ariens I thought was way over priced and one dealer
    mentioned if "someone" doesn't dump a lot of money into them they may
    go under. I liked the John Deere bt for the money I would buy a
    NOMA/SS. On the upper end, the Honda is a truely impressive unit with a
    price to match. 
    
    
    If I had to buy something today, it would be a Honda or a NOMA, and
    Honda is offering great financing. $50 down, use it all winter, make
    payments, or pay it off in March '95.
    
    You really can't make generalizations about a brand manufactured by
    NOMA. You need to go out an look at all of them and compare. My 27 year
    old Hahn-Eclipse Sno-Giant has been a great machine most of it's life
    but without the luxury of a garage it's time for something that needs
    less attention and maintenance.
    
    ~jeff

Anyone know of good (read willing to give a good deal) dealers in the
Nashua/Hudson area.  This is for a machine like an Ariens or Honda.  I'm going
to look at Hammer hardware but they are usually pretty expensive.

Thanks,

George

Well, Hammar is pretty good when you catch a sale.  You missed the "pre-season"
sale, I think.  I haven't found their prices to be higher than that of
other dealers.

You might want to consider Troy-Bilt as an additional brand.  I didn't even
look at Honda - they're astronomically priced.

The Milford County Store also carries Ariens.

					Steve

Osgood in downtown Nashua carriers Ariens, JD, and Simplicity. Grantz on Route
28 Soute of the Rockingham Mall in Salem, NH carries Ariens and Toro.

dave 

	I stopped in at Hammer last night.  Their prices seemed pretty good,
they have Toro, Troy-built and Honda will be in next week.  Honda prices are
pretty high.  Toro is running a promo where you fill out a credit application,
take the machine today and don't have to pay a dime until April 1st.  If you pay
it off in full then, no interest is charged.  I don't think you're going to find
many sales since the machines are in great demand - probably worse after last
nights Telegraph article.

	The troy-bilt 10 horse is about the same price as the Toro 8 horse and
offers a 7 year warranty as opposed to a 2 year.  I'm undecided between the
Troy-bilt and the Toro.  The Toro has some other features that I like that the 
Troy-bilt doesn't - larger scoop, wheel adjustment, greater throwing distance.
Electric start is a $70 option on either of them bit it doesn't seem worth the
price - you need to plug the starter into a power source (like your house) to
use the starter since they don't use a battery.  Great if you're near the house
but useless if you're at the end of the driveway.

I'm not that concerned with the warranty since I expect this machine. with
normal maintenance, to last at least 30 years.  Anyone have any preferences for
either machine?

    Naults Honda of Manchester (NH) has the best prices on Honda & NOMA. 
    Granz on rte 28 in Salem is having a sale now, they carry Toro & Ariens.
    
    ~jeff
    

The electric start is definitely worthwhile, especially when it's really
cold.

As I mentioned earlier, I opted for the Troy-Bilt 5HP versus the Toro 521
(I didn't look at larger models).  I think the larger Troy-Bilt has handwarmers
built into the grips (dunno if that's a gimmick or something worthwhile.)
I thought the Troy-Bilt looked a bit more rugged than the Toro.

					Steve

Anyone have a number for Grantz?  Directory Assistance didn't have anything.

George

>			I think the larger Troy-Bilt has handwarmers
>built into the grips (dunno if that's a gimmick or something worthwhile.)

I have a Troy-Built 8hp.  The handwarmers are very nice on cold days...  but
on warmer days they can actually get too warm...  Ie, can't turn it off.

I'd rate the electric start *much more* important than the handwarmers :-)  

The electric start came for free on mine with a sale...  But for kicks I've 
tried pull starting a few times... it's not so easy.

Dan

    Granz Inc. of Salem is (603)898-2871
    
    Seasonal Power Equipment, Route 111 in Hampstead carries Simplicity and
    Snapper blowers. (603)329-4233.
    
    And then there's a Cub Cadet dealer in Windham, Indian Rock Hardware on
    rte 111. (603)893-3977.
    
    ~jeff

    re: .467
    
    So what did the Telegraph's article say? Was it a prediction on this
    winter's snowfall?

The article said that it was likely that most stores would be sold out before
the first flake fell.  It's largely a reaction to last winter's clobbering.

					Steve

	Just to add to the short supply scare, I'll note that I am on the
	waiting list at about 5 places for used 8 hp snowblowers. I
	specified electric start, "name brand" (i.e., no craftsman, monkey
	wards, etc), but nothing else.

	I got my name on the lists about 4-5 weeks ago. Nobody has anything
	yet; Nashua Outdoor Power Equipment said that they've had just one
	John Deere 8HP in so far, and that went to the first person on their
	list. They'll be getting some Simplicity 10hp units on Friday, and
	those'll sell for about $650. But a 10 hp unit is too big for the
	door on my shed, so that's a no-go for me.

	So, not only are new ones going to sell out fairly early, but used
	ones will likely be scarce. 5hp used are easy to find, because many
	people end up trading up from 5 hp -> 8 hp. but 8 hp is what most
	people really need, so they stick with it.

	Roy

>    <<< Note 1508.475 by NOVA::SWONGER "DBS Software Quality Engineering" >>>
>                     -< Used ones going like hotcakes too >-
>
>	Just to add to the short supply scare, I'll note that I am on the
>	waiting list at about 5 places for used 8 hp snowblowers. I
>	specified electric start, "name brand" (i.e., no craftsman, monkey
>	wards, etc), but nothing else.


The early Montgomery Wards were built by Gilson and are one of the best old 
snowblowers going! They used Briggs engines and are very effective in moving
snow. FYI, any blower can be easily fitted with electric start.

Ross

 	This afternoon I bought a Troy-Bilt Snow thrower - hand warmers and all-
from Markwell Equipment in Merrimack.  The cost was $1399 for a 10 HP, 26" 
chute, free electric start, headlight and delivery.  The warranty is 7 years, 
3 years on the engine.  Not sure if the agreement is from Troy-bilt or the 
engine manufacturer but if you use their oil, at $29 for a 6 pack (pints I 
think), they will extend the engine warranty to 6 years.  Since a 6 pack 
should last 3 years it seems a pretty cheap price to extend the warranty.  
Also, if I decide to buy it there, I get $50 off a mower that I need to 
purchase in the spring.  The 8 HP Toro with no electric start or light and a 2 
year warranty on everything was $1399 at Hammer.  I think I got a great deal 
and am really happy with it.  It gets delivered Saturday.  

	Unfortunately the price on the 10 HP is going up tomorrow to, I 
believe, $1499, maybe more.  Markwell has 11 10's left and has some 8HP.  
I know the 10's come with the free electric and light and I think the 8's do 
also.  I really like the people there.  They are friendly and seem honest. 
Their phone number is 603-424-6096, fax is 424-4636.  They are at 717 DW 
Highway in Merrimack.  They also service what they sell and will pick up and 
deliver.

Usual disclaimer about having no interest in the place etc, etc, etc.

George

One more thing, you can take the machine and not have to pay anything until 
sometime in January.

George

The $50-off deal and no-payments-till-January is for any Troy-Bilt dealer - 
Hammar (not "Hammer"!) has it too.  Both are Troy-Bilt programs.

					Steve

I need help locating a part for my old Gilson 8hp snowblower.

I need to replace the all metal roller that exerts tension on the belt which
engages the auger.

The roller is 1" thick, 2" in diameter, has a 1 1/8" hole in which a brass
sleeve is inserted.  Within that is a metal bushing with a 3/4" inside
diameter.
    
Kind of looks like a heavy duty roller from a pair of skates.

This is a roller and not a pulley.  No luck at 4 shops yet.  They recommend
finding someone/some shop that carries old blowers for parts.  
    
I have been told that LawnBoy bought out Gilson, and Toro bought out Lawnboy.

The other shop said they cut the shaft, insert a new smaller shaft with a
pulley.  I'd rather not do this unless I have no other choice (smaller shaft,
smaller pulley, yuch).

The bearing has become loose and can be popped out, it makes this god awful
squeeling noise when the auger is operated.  Packing it with grease cures the
problem only for a little while.

My blower uses 2 of these rollers, one is always against a belt (not sure of
the other belts purpose), and the other "problem" one is for the auger belt.

I would like to aquire at least one, but preferably two of these rollers (plan
for the future).  If anyone should notice a shop with old parts blowers, please
ask them for me!  If anyone out there has parts, please contact me!

Thanks!  Mark

    
    
    	Any Snapper or Simplicity owners out there? I've been shopping
        around a bit, and both are running pre-season specials on
        some of their models.
    
        Also, would welcome folks comments on units with/without
        differential. 
        

    
    I own a Simplicity 8hp. It's about 6 years old and I love it. I bought
    it off a neighbor that was heading south a few years back. Looks and
    runs like new...It passed last years test with flying colors. I haven't 
    needed any parts (it came with spare belts and shear pins). It appears
    there is a dealer in Worcester. Do you know of any others?
    
    Good Luck,
    Charlie

    
    
    Re: 483
    
    Not sure of dealers outside the Worcester area. The two I came
    across in the Worcester area were;  P&C Power equipment
    on RT12 in West Boylston and Caola Equipment on Park Ave. in
    Worcester.
    
    P&C had quite an extensive inventory of equipment on the floor
    and parts per the salesmen. Caola advertised Simplicity but had
    no equipment on the floor if this means anything.
    
    Phil
    

    
    Thanks. Looks like P&C is the place. It would be nice to have a second
    source though...
    
    /Charlie

    			Another source for Simplicity...
    	
    		Seasonal Equipment in Hampstead....rte 111
    
                                                        

    
    re: 481  (parts for Gilson)
    
    Mark,
          Montgomery Wards sold Gilson's for years under the MW name.
     I believe they (Wards) probably have any part you need. They have
     a phone number you could call but without a Montgomery Ward model
     number I'm not sure how you'd make out. I'd call and ask where you
     could actually walk in for parts (probably New Hampshire) and take a
     look at a parts breakdown (or the actual part) yourself. Hope this
     helps.
    
    /Charlie
    
    P.S. I gave my old MW Gilson to my brother in N.H. Guess what part it
         needed!!! That same pulley/bearing you describe. I'll be talking
         to him soon (and I'll ask if/where he found a replacement.)
                                                 

    I think there's a Simplicity dealer on Route 111 in Harvard, Mass.
    Not positive though....

	Other Simplicity dealers:

	Nashua Outdoor Power Equipment (behind Osgood's True Value in
	downtown Nashua)

	P&L power Equipment, Amherst NH. (May not be in the yellow pages --
	this is a guy who runs a lawn mower/snowblower shop out of his
	garage and basement. Very nice to deal with, but can get very backed
	up with repairs. Check the white pages.)

	The Simplicity snowblowers that I saw did not have a differential
	available. Since I need the maneuverability, that counted them out
	for me.

	Roy

     
        Re: 489
    
        Roy,
    
        I've not owned a snowblower. Please expand a little on
        the differential. You're right, Simplicity does not
        offer it on any models either as standard equipment
        or an option. Ariens has it on their higher end models
        and Toro has it as an option on the higher end.
    
        What are the advantages? 
    
        Phil

    
    Does anyone have any experience with a brand called White?
    My father is looking around and just came across this brand.
    
    Thanks,
    Rich

    
    
    We also didn't answer this in 1508.208.
    
    White is MFD by MTD. 
    
    You can see MTD brands at : HQ and I've seen them at Montgomery Ward
    in Nashua, N.H.
    

	re: Differentials

	My understanding is that the differential allows the wheels to turn
	independently, making the snowblower much more maneuverable.
	Otherwise the wheels are locked together, which is great for
	straight lines, but not so great when you are storing the snowblower
	in a shed like I am (and not a garage -- not much maneuvering room).

	Even among models with differentials, there are differences. Some,
	like the John Deere, always send 50% of the power to each wheel. So,
	the wheels turn independently, but it's still possible for a wheel
	to slip and spin out. Others, like the Troy Bilt and Ariens, have
	"limited slip" differentials, tha send mroe power to the wheel that
	has more traction. This seems like the better of the two to me, but
	I went with the Deere because of price and other features.

	Like anything, once you start seriously looking at snowblowers
	you'll find that there are a bazillion features to think about, and
	nobody has all of them except the highest-cost model. 

	Roy

    
    
        Re: 493
    
        Thanks for the response, will add to the list of options
        to consider (along with the ""bazillion" others).
    
        Anyone familiar with a Troy-Bilt dealer in the Central Mass
        area? There has been some discussion in previous notes referencing
        a dealer in Souther NH. Looking for someone a little closer.
    
        Phil
         
    
        

I've had my 7hp Simplicity for 6 years - no problems.

I bought mine at Still's Power Equipment in Manchester, NH (Mammoth Rd).
They also sell Ariens and I think Snapper.

    There's a Troy-Bilt dealer in Harvard, Mass., on Route 111 north of
    the center of town.
    

>        Anyone familiar with a Troy-Bilt dealer in the Central Mass
>        area? There has been some discussion in previous notes referencing
>        a dealer in Souther NH. Looking for someone a little closer.

There's also one in Charlton, MA on rt20 (between Auburn and Sturbridge)...
called Charlton City Power (248-7464)

Dan

	FYI, another of the multitudinous options to note when looking at
	Troy-Bilt is the impeller. THat's the second stage in a "2-stage"
	blower -- the fan-like thing that blows the snow out the chute.
	Troy-bilt's have a 3-blade impeller, while other machines in that
	price range and up have 4-blade impellers. Does it matter? Probably
	depends on who you ask, but since it's not exactly obvious from the
	outside, I thought I'd mention it.

	Roy

    
    
    	Yep, that was one of the differences I noticed in my
        comparison. I know Simplicity offers it at least on
        the 7HP and up models.
    
        Deciding on what options is almost as much fun as
        trying to figure out the actual manufacturer (as other
        notes have indicated) of the unit you're looking at.
    
        White is MTD, John Deere is NOMA, who is Murray, or is
        it MTD ;) Yikes...

	RE: Harvard, MA Simplicity Snowblower Dealer

		Norman Stone
		Stone's Power Equipment
		Ayer Road / RT 110
		Harvard, MA  772-3766
		(RT 110, 0.5 miles north of RT 2)

	RE: Harvard, MA Simplicity Snowblower Repair

		Tony's Repair
		Next to Stone's Power Equipment
		772-6619

    
    Found replacement parts for my Gilson snowblower belt
    tensioners/rollers thru a Toro dealer.
    
    Price is $25.99 each and I need 2 of them.  
    
    Pricey yes.  But thats the way it goes.  I rec'd many offers of help
    thru here and I would like to thank all of you!
    
    Mark
               

    	
    	Anyone familiar with the Yardsman brand?  Who actually makes this
    unit?  What quality does it compare to, Ariens or BJ's?  I'm looking
    at a used 10 HP and was wondering who would service these since I
    hadn't seen anything in the Yellow pages.
    
    Thanks,
    	Tom
    

    I think SOmerville Lumber , Pelham NH, is selling the Yardsman now.
    Last I knew S/L didn't have a service or parts department for outdoor
    power equipment though. Chances are it's made by NOMA to Yardsman's 
    spec's.
    
    A phone call to some outdoor power equipment service/repair shops would
    give you an idea of how readily available parts will be. Engine parts
    would be pretty standard, though undercarriage hardware & transmission
    internals would be harder to source.
    
    ~jeff

	Yardman is made by MTD, or at least sold by them.

	Roy

Home Depot also has Yard Man - it is indeed made by MTD, which doesn't
say much for it.

I got a look there at the Noma 8HP model which others have mentioned - it
reinforced my choice of Troy-Bilt.  Everything looked flimsy on the Noma.

					Steve

The title fits but the subject doesn't, but what the heck.

I'm looking for a standard steel snow shovel.  Are they still available?
Everything seems to be plastic or aluminum.

    I dunno - mine has been around for a while.  A steel shovel is sturdier
    than aluminum, and they tended to have longer handles (which is why I
    have one!).  But they are HEAVY, and they get rust on them, which makes
    the snow stick.  Silicone spray helps. They steel shovel is strong
    enough to chop ice with.  
    
    Why did you have to remind me of the approach of, ugh, winter?...
    
    /Charlotte

I saw steel snow shovels and pushers at Sam's Club in Manchester last
night.

Art

I had just about narrowed my choices for an 8HP snowblower to $1299 for the Toro
or the same price for the Simplicity when I called A G Hardware in Lowell. 
They have their own brand for $999 - does anyone have any experience with this
model?

Tim

     They have their own model for $999.00. Ask them who makes the motor,
    and who makes their brand. There's only a handful of manufactures.
    
    

The AG Hardware model is made by MTD with a Tecumesh (sp?) engine.

MTD came out pretty low in the 5 year old consumer reports listing - but 
$300 is $300. I will take a look at this weekend - what should I be looking for?

Tim

    Looking thru NH I see they have a 6 hp "tiller" engine with
    a crankshaft size to meet my specs and 4 bolt faceplate.
    They also list the 5hp Sno-King for $30 more, and state 
    a 3 and 5/8 " (or something close) bolt mounting circle.  
    
    2 questions first the old engine is a 7hp and used the std 4 bolt
    rectangular mount on the bottom of the engine. Is what they list for the 
    sno-king engine different (it appears to be).  The tiller motor
    says 4 bolt faceplate.
    
    second question are the main differences between the tiller
    and sno-king engine just the cold air box instead of a filter.
    ie could I just take the parts from my original engine and use them
    on the tiller motor to "convert" it to winter use? I would just get 
    the eight horse but the shaft height and diameter  is different.
    
    I would appreciate any advice.
    
               Dean

          As far as steel shovels vs plastic, I have owned two Garant
     (made in Canada) plastic shovels, and these things should be the
     standard. The shovels have an unbelievable strength (I have lifted
     60 pound slabs of the white stuff with no problems whatsoever) and
     also their scraping abilities are nothing short of phenomenal. I
     can effortlessly scrape down to the bare asphalt by merely pushing
     the shovel with its only downward force being its own light weight! 
     They are guaranteed for 5 years, and I am on year 7 of my first one
     with at least 3 years left in it, as the self-sharpening scraping
     edge slowly is wearing down. I own a 12-14" wide (with side wings
     that keep large amounts of snow on the shovel when moving the
     shovel to a depositing area) that is good for lifting and throwing
     heavy stuff. That's my old shovel. The one I bought last year is a
     wide pusher, since my aluminum pusher wore down in a mere 4 years
     to an unusable shovel. I can't think of anything better that
     doesn't burn gas.

          Mike

>>    Looking thru NH I see they have a 6 hp "tiller" engine with
>>    a crankshaft size to meet my specs and 4 bolt faceplate.
>>    They also list the 5hp Sno-King for $30 more, and state 
>>    a 3 and 5/8 " (or something close) bolt mounting circle.  
    
 >>   2 questions first the old engine is a 7hp and used the std 4 bolt
 >>   rectangular mount on the bottom of the engine. Is what they list for the 
 >>   sno-king engine different (it appears to be).  The tiller motor
 >>   says 4 bolt faceplate.
   
    As near as I can figure (called NH and from further reading in the
    pump section)  4 bolt faceplate and 3 5/8" bolt mounting circle
    refers to what mounting a pump would need to couple to the engine.
    The girl that answered my call wasn't to knowledgeable about the 
    mounting but they refered to 4 bolt and 3 5/8" bolt circle in the 
    pump section so thats probably it.
    
     
    >>second question are the main differences between the tiller
    >>and sno-king engine just the cold air box instead of a filter.
    >>ie could I just take the parts from my original engine and use them
    >>on the tiller motor to "convert" it to winter use? I would just get 
    >>the eight horse but the shaft height and diameter  is different.
    
    
    It apears yes they are the same/similar...so I ordered the 6hp
    it should be here within a week.
    
        Dean

FWIW, I bought a steel shovel when I was visiting Syracuse over Thanksgiving
weekend.  For some strange reason, the stores there carry a wide variety of
shovels...

    Okay, I printed out -.2 about the plastic shovel.  I moved into my house
    at the end of last winter.  The previous owners left me a broken
    plastic shovel, which was nice of them, since they knew I'd been a
    renter who had a landlord for that kind of thing!  But you couldn't
    pick much of anything up with it!
    
    My aunt and uncle gave me their electric Toro snow "shovel."  For part
    of my housewarming, they gave me a 100' outdoor cord!  We got an 8"
    snowfall in March and I had to use it.  It wasn't too bad.  You learn
    the tricks mentioned in prior notes quickly.  It took a long time, but
    my back wasn't killing me.
    
    I've still got that, and will use it for moderate snow, probably, but I
    need a regular shovel.  I went to the hardware store (Hammar) and
    couldn't believe how many there were to choose from!  And I couldn't
    believe how heavy they were (even some plastic).  I hesitated to pick
    up some of the lighter weight shovels, because I didn't trust my
    judgment.  I thought I should check here first.
    
    I'm very small, live alone, and the "kids" in the neighborhood are late
    teens (no interest in shovelling) or under 6.  Also, I can't afford to
    pay someone regularly, and have a relatively short driveway.
    
    Any specific recommendations (besides .16) for a particular shovel?  I
    noticed that some have "angular" (bended) handles, some are very
    straight, some are extremely short (didn't make sense to me), and some
    are extremely heavy.  How do I make a determination?  If I'm going to
    spend $25 on a shovel, I want to be sure it's a good one.
    
    Also, during the last winter Olympics in Norway, they showed how the
    Norwegians "shovel" - with large "tongs."  (A note in either this
    conference or GARDENING mentioned something like this for leaves.) 
    They almost look like giant salad tongs, with two shovel-like ends that
    are used to scoop the snow.  It was reported that Norwegians do not
    suffer from shoveling-related back injuries or heart attacks.  So why
    can't we get some of those? ;-)
    
    Any advice would be appreciated.  I figure my time for procrastinating
    on this one is about to run out!
    
    
    Susan

    I am very fond of the "backsaver" shovels with the bent handle.
    Many people think it's a gimmick until they try it.
    
    I prefer metal shovels as they tend to slide under snow and ice
    better.
    
    				Steve

    My "back-saver" shovel is real hard for me to use - I think, like a lot
    of things, it was designed with much shorter people in mind.  It is
    real hard to get a grip on the crook in the handle for two-handed
    tossing of the snow out of the way.  I gave up on the thing.  What I do
    now is plod down to the downhill part of the driveway, and work my way
    up so I don't have to bend as far to get under the darn stuff.  I also
    bought a steel-bladed shovel with an extra-long handle - this one
    doesn't buckle when I use it to chop ice.  I much prefer metal shovels
    anyhow - spray them with silicone spray every once in a while so the
    snow will slide off instead of sticking.  Hope I don't need one TOO bad
    on New Year's Day - I guess we are supposed to be in for a big storm!
    
    /Charlotte

"Shorter people"?  Hmm, I'm 6'4".  There are variations in design, though.
I find that with the one I have (an Ames) that I can toss the snow
farther and it doesn't tend to slide off the shovel while I lift.

				Steve

I found an excellent, relatively light weight and strong shovel at 
Aubuchons last year.  It has a blue half curved plastic head and an long 
wooden handel.  It isn't anything like those flimsy plastic ones you 
normally see.  I beat it to death last year on snow and ice and I just 
pulled it out and it looks like new.  You can use it to push snow as well 
as pick and throw.  It wasn't cheap but well worth it.

    Thanks!  Every metal shovel I've lifted was heavy enough without snow
    on it, so I'll probably go with plastic.  Steve, is the brandname Ames,
    or did you mean you bought it at an Ames store?  I'll be downtown
    Nashua later today, so maybe I'll check out Aubuchon if I get out of
    here early enough.  (And I, too, hope I won't spend most of New Year's
    Day shoveling!)
    
    
    Susan

    The brand name is Ames - I got mine at Home Depot, but they're probably
    out of them by now.  I was at Hammar this afternoon and saw an Ames
    "Ergo[something]" shovel with the bend but with a plastic blade,
    a nylon scraping strip and a super-light handle.  Looked good until
    I picked it up and realized that all the snow would fall off when
    I tried to use it because of the tilt of the blade.  A shorter
    person might like it a lot.
    
    					Steve

You might also consider two devices: a shovel (already discussed), and a
pusher. I use a pusher when there's an inch or so of snow; start at the
house with the pusher on the ground, and walk in a straight line to the
end of the driveway. Walk back, move over 18 inches, and do it
again. My pusher has a long straight wooden handle, and a wide but
shallow aluminum blade with a steel scraper at the very bottom.

Over the years I've tried a lot of different shovels, and have settled on
wooden handled, aluminum-bladed shovels with steel scrapers. I spray them
with Pam, sometimes with spray oil of any kind (edible or WD40-type).
Teflon spray also helps.

What helps most, though, is having a John Deere in the other garage
stall.

Art

    Thanks for the advice.  I ended up picking up a Garant at Aubuchon. 
    They had the Ames with the bent handle, but it seemed heavy to me (I'm
    a little weakling!).  The Garant was also recommended by the salesman
    at Aubuchon, given my size and my request for a light weight shovel
    that would be durable.  And when it turned out to be on sale for <$10 I
    was extremely pleased.  If I don't like it, I can try another brand!
    ;-)
    
    Art, I don't even have a garage, so I guess a John Deere is out of the
    question for me! :-)
    
    
    Susan

    re .25, is the pusher tilted to allow overflow to go in one direction
    only (like snowplows), or is there some other compelling reason to buy
    one instead of pushing with your standard basic shovel?
    
    Not looking for new ways to spend $,
    Leslie :-)

    
    
    I posed a few questions here back in the fall regarding features
    of the varying models as well as dealers. I ended up with a 8hp
    Troy-Built which I purchased at Wilhems in Harvard, MA.
    
    Worked like a charm during last weekend's storm.
    A belated thanks for folks friendly advice.
    
    Phil
    
    

    
    	Used my new Toro 824 during this last storm for the first time.
    	I have to say it was a lot harder to manuver than I thought 
    	it would be.  Anyway, after about finishing my drive, the 
    	worm gear to the blower chute broke.  I could not direct the
    	snow without this control.
    
    	I phoned the dealer and was told that part fails quite often.
    	Not exactly what I wanted to hear.  I was told that I could
    	come pick up a new part.  I told them the warranty said they
    	fix it for 2 years.  They agreed and picked it up Monday.
    
    	Anyone else have trouble with a new, but I'll bet cheaper ($)
    	blower?  Seems a Nokio at 1/2 the price would have performed
    	just as well.

My new Troy-Bilt 5HP did just fine.  Started instantly, didn't complain 
(much) when I had let ice form in the impeller area and jam the impeller
(always clear out the snow after using - I know this now!).  

Maneuvering a unit without a differential is a bit tricky, but it can be
done.

				Steve

   I'll trade you my Toro 521!
   It started like a champ, but I was out around sunset on Saturday and in
   No. Andover, I got caught in the change to rain.   When the snow started
   getting really wet, it was clogging and stalling constantly.
   
   It finally refused to consistently engange the augers even after I
   cleared them, and started making nasty scraping noises.  So I gave up.
   And I had Granz tune it up before the season started.  Sigh.
   
   I'm not sure what to do next.  It was too dark, and I was too wet.
   
   	Dave.

    
    	Well just as it did last year when it was new my 10hp electric
    start Noma from Home Depot performed flawlessly.  To all you folks that
    paid about double what I did for a name brand of equivalent size I 
    say thank you for keeping the price of mine down.

    Joe_a_very_satisfied_Noma_owner

    Well, my 17-year-old Toro 724 did just fine, except I think the
    impeller drive belt is finally about to give up.

My new steel snow shovel performed like a champ.  The trick was to shovel
on Saturday night when it was above freezing.  Those who waited till Sunday
lived to regret it.

    My 9 year old Arens 824 (8-hp) is a joy to use on my double-width, 
    75 ft driveway.  It has electric start but I don't even bother getting 
    the cord out, it always starts on the first pull.  It laughs at 
    everything I've asked it to chew up and spit out.  I even snowblow a
    path around to the rear of my house for an emergency exit in deep snows
    like this past one.  Yeah, I know, I'm paranoid!
    
    I'll definitely buy another one when this wears out (if I'm still alive
    by then).  It looks like it will keep going for a long time.
    
    \Lou

    
     In September I thought I was a bit crazy to buy a snowblower. When I
    saw the Supply at many stores get wiped out. I'm glad I got one early.
    With no real snow for a while, I got a lot of ribbing from neighbors.
    But this last storm made it all right. ;-) The 8HP NOMA out of the
    garage had no problems with any of the snow. The advertised no clog
    shute was exactly that, even in the wet snow. I can reamember my
    dads snowblower always clogging, not this one. The only problem I 
    had was running out of gas. Between clearing the drive way, making 
    trails in the back yard, and clearing off the skating rink 40x50
    I'd go through a tank of gas in a few hours.
    
    Ed_another_satisfied_Noma_owner
    

    
    
    How is the availability for parts for the NOMA?  What brand engine is
    it powered by or is that also a NOMA?
    
    Thanks,
    
    /Andy

            
    re: 515
    
      >> I'll trade you my Toro 521! It started like a champ, but I was out
      >> around sunset on Saturday and in No. Andover, I got caught in the
      >> change to rain.  When the snow started  getting really wet, it was
      >> clogging and stalling constantly.
    
     Dave,
    
     First off, thanks for reminding me why I bought an 8hp machine!!! ;^)
    (Sorry, couldn't resist...) But seriously, this type of wet, heavy snow
    (I got started at 3:30 PM in Milford MA in the rain too!!!) is the 
    ultimate test for a snowblower. I don't have any experience with smaller
    than 7hp machines, but if you have used your machine in this type of heavy
    wet snow before without any problems, then indeed I would want it fixed
    too!!!
    
     Don't feel bad, my neighbor has a 7hp machine which was clogging quite
    often too. The chute on his machine is quite a bit smaller than mine.
    My machine sometimes bogs in this heavy stuff, and occasionally produces
    what can only be described as foot long "logs of snow" when I get into
    deep wet stuff. Soon after it clears itself and resumes throwing...
    
      Many factors like worn belts, impeller (worn, bent) or just plain rusty
    parts (and therefore sticky to snow/ice), engine being governed down (runs
    fine but doesn't produce rated h.p.) and machine design (ie. impeller too
    small, or intake too large for a given HP) can all contribute. If you were
    making full passes, I'd try smaller passes (1/2 the width of the machine)
    and see if that makes a difference. Fortunately, we don't often get this
    much rain after a heavy snow...
    
      I try to keep a coating of wax and or silicone spray (on the augers,
    chute, etc) to minimze sticking and clogging. I plan to disassemble and
    paint my machine when rust becomes a problem.
    
      I hope there is a bit of help for you hidden in my reply somewhere as I
    know (former snowblower) how frustrating it is to shovel when there is
    a snowblower parked in the garage!!! Grrrrrrrrr.
    
    Good Luck,
    Charlie
    
    P.S. I'd also welcome replies from owners of 5hp, especially TORO,
         (and smaller) machines to hear how they faired in locations with
          rainy, wet snow.
      
  

    
    re: 521  >>How is the availability for parts for the NOMA?  What brand
             >> engine is it powered by or is that also a NOMA?
    
    
     Andy,
     
       See .435 and after for Noma info.
    
    /Charlie
    

    
    Thank You.......
    
    /ab

Re: .522

My 5HP model (Troy-Bilt) had very little problem with the wet snow.  The
tightly-packed berm at the end of the driveway did require an "angled attack",
but only once did the chute clog and that was due to my own inexperience
(I had basically buried the intake in the berm).  Not once did it bog down
even in the densest snow.  (I was glad, though, that I had gone out
Saturday evening to clear most of the snow away, so I had less of it on
Sunday.  But the fresh berm on Sunday was still pretty bad.  I was also able
to trim down the berm in front of the mailbox, something I had always had
to do by shovel before.

The 5HP model is perfect for my situation; a bigger one would cause me
storage problems and I really don't need the extra power.  If I had a larger
driveway, it might be something to consider (mine is about 20'x60').

				Steve

    re .522, my 15-yr old, 2-hp Sears thrower performed as well as a 15
    year old, 2 hp thrower should. It started on the 18th pull, gave
    sufficient blue smoke to the neighbors, and set to work. Altho it only
    throws about 8 feet (if the wind is with you), it worked ok in the
    morning (5 inches) and slower in the afternoon (8 wet inches). It made
    slush logs quickly when wet, and required 4 inch passes. But, it worked
    again. Only used two tanks of gas, and I'm glad I still have enough
    2-stroke oil for another storm.
    

My 43 year old Gravely didn't have any problems at all.  I didn't get a 
chance to do anything until TUESDAY night.  Was away all weekend and had 
stuff to do on Monday night.

The berm at the end of the driveway was a food-deep solid block of ice/snow.  
It's gone, now.  A chunk of ice hit the neighbor's garage and set off the 
car alarm inside the locked garage.  That was a fun thing to watch.  :-)  
The garage is about 50 feet from where I was turning the tractor around in 
the street.

Since my driveway is 90 feet WIDE, I have to start in the middle and keep 
blowing it sideways.  By the time I get to one side it's a couple of feet 
deep.  The Gravely handles a full 24 inch swath at once.  I have to tip 
down on the handles, though, when it starts to burrow into the deep snow to 
get the roof of the "tunnel" to collapse into the auger.

I even picked up a disk brake pad in the impeller.  That was fun.  It 
stripped all the lining off the pad and forced the slip clutch into action. 
 Had to pry the impeller around with a broken Chrysler torsion bar to get 
the wedged shoe out and be on my way again.

My 8 year old 8hp (B&S), 26"w Simplicity has always started and performed as 
expected each time. The only maintenence has been to drain the gas and "fog" the 
cylinder each spring and to change the oil each fall (I use Mobil 1).  I did add 
a small in_line gas filter.  

This is the first year in our new house with a 450' driveway; turns and slopes 
included.  The only problem I had clearing the 18" deep snow was that the 
Simplicity (with chains) went so fast up the slopes in 5th gear that I had 
trouble keeping my footing.  On Sunday, I cleared out the frozen snowplow berm; 
1st gear and wait.

About the only thing better is to have someone else do it.

Dave

    My 8 year old 8 HP craftsman two stage started on the second pull and
    cleared all the snow and ice off my drive and sidewalks no problem. 
    Even though I waited till sunday to do it.  I have to admit because of
    the shape of my driveway, I have to throw the snow sometimes 25 feet to
    the edge so that I have a couple of feet by the time I get to the
    edges.  However, aside from slowing down how far it would throw, the
    snow blower was fine.  I did blow a belt on the very last 2 feet. 
    However, I have learned that one always has two spares of everything,
    because no matter what on the worst storm something will break.
    
    Brian
    
    PS  I also learned that you take your good belts into an automotive
    place and have them size them and buy your spares there, they are more
    than 1/2 price and work just as well as the snowthrower brands.

    	My 72 year old Snow-Boogar runs as good as the day I bought. It
    clears my mall sized parking lot in little over a half hour. It's small
    block Chevy powered V8 throws a foot of the wettest snow over 100'
    against a 70 MPH wind.
    
    	It runs 9 hours on a gallon of gas and only cost $129 when new. It
    starts on the coldest mornings by simply looking sideways at it, you
    don't even have to pull it. I used it to clear Rt. 495 after the
    blizzard of '78. 
    
    	It's the biggest, bestest, baddess snowblower ever made and much
    much better than anyone else's in here.
    
    	Ray
    
    	Many ;-) Just couldn't resist after reading some of these replies.

    
    Hey, my 40-ish year old snow plowing contractor cleared my 400'
    driveway in under 15 minutes. No broken belts, no clogged chutes
    and *I* barely worked up a sweat.
    
    							- Mac

re .530:

$129 was a lot of money in 1923.

    
    re .530
    
    near fell out of my chair!