Conference 7.286::home_work

    RE: .1
    
    You're right...
    
    Cash speaks louder than contracts!  Or maybe since they don't have
    all that "paperwork" (ie, contracts, checks, tax...oops) they can 
    charge less.

    
    Re: .1, .2
    
    	As a Board member of a large southern NH condo, and their
    Treasurer, let me emphatically say: No, no, no, no, no major work
    like snow-plow deals without a contract.  Contracts are what defines
    the job.  If you don't like the performance, what are you going
    to use to measure the performance against?  If someone says "sure,
    I'll be over to do it when it snows" and the curb gets broken, who
    pays for fixing it?  How are you going to prove that the curb wasn't
    broken before the snows started?  Going without a contract is asking
    for trouble.  Yes, cash speaks loudly to contractors, so get a contract
    that defines what they have to do for it!
    
    	Suggestions for what a snow-plowing contract should cover:
    
    1)  Minimum snow-fall needed to bring the contractor to the site.
    
    	If you feel that a 1/2 inch snow needs cleaning up, make sure
    	the contractor understands that.  A big difficulty in snow-plowing
    	arraignments is the contractor feeling that there isn't enough
    	snow to warrent plowing while the condo members are wondering
    	where the truck is.
    
    2)	Minimum response time.
    
    	If this contractor has other sites under contract, where do
    	you fall on the priority list?  If there is a major storm, you
    	could end up waiting for hours while other areas are being plowed.
    
    3)  Sand or Sand/Salt mix for bad areas.
    
    	You should walk through the entire area and define what particular
    	bad areas you have that need special treatment.  Our condo has
    	one bad stretch that needs pointed out in the contract for special
    	sand or sand/salt treatment.
    
    4)	Pre-winter walkthrough.
    
     	Once a contractor has been decided, walk through the entire
    	area (before being covered with snow) and make a list of any
    	damage that *could* look like was caused by a snow-plow.  Both
    	you and the contractor should sign this as the complete list
    	of known pre-winter damages.  (The contractor will probably
    	go out of his way to point everything out due to the next
    	point...)
    
    5)	Damage assessment
    
    	In the spring, make another walkthrough with the contractor
    	and compare damages.  Any snow-plow damage not on the "pre-winter
    	list" is the responsibility of the contractor to fix.
    
    6)	Damage repair
    
    	To guarantee point 5, the contract should specify that the last
    	X% of the contract price (no less than, say, 10-15% of the contract
    	value) will be paid after the damage has been fixed.
    
    							-craig
    

    
    	One more thing...
    
    	If you have the option, take a single pre-defined cost for
    the entire winter's plowing instead of a per-storm or by-the-inch
    plowing charge.  While you might end up paying more during an easy
    winter, a very bad winter could really hurt your budget.  (Any guesses
    on how this winter will be -- how many inches of snow did we get last
    night, on Nov. 10th???)  Unless the single all-winter cost is way
    out of line, your budgetary benefit of a known cost (whose distribution
    should be defined in the contract, at that) can really help your
    cash flow.  The main danger of a per-storm or per-inch contract
    is that you just don't know how much the plowing will cost you.
    In a small condo with few amenities, the snow-plowing can be a good
    percentage of the overall budget.  If there is a heavy winter and
    the cost is twice what you budgeted...

    I'm involved in a similar thing for a rather large development in
    Maine with private roads.   The fixed price quotes all seemed based
    on an average winter so that's what we went with.  But we couldn't
    get materials included in the quote.  $12/yd for sand/salt can really
    add up but the contractor wasn't willing to gamble on guessing how much of
    that stuff he'd use.

    Thanks for all information.  I will use it all when negotiating a
    contract.
    
    Andy
    

    
    	Yeah, I know the feeling.  Our contract also specifies that
    the sand/salt is by the yard.  In our case, though, the amount of
    area needing it is small enough that a worst-case situation doesn't
    change our bottom line payments dramatically.  (I don't consider
    a 10% overage on the snow-plowing budget to be dramatic.)
    
    							-c

We had great luck ever since we gave the snow-plow contract to our 
landscaper - he has incredible incentive not to mess up the grounds 
with his plow - also - don't set an earliest/latest date on the 
contract - we ghot burned one year by having to pay extra for the 
april snowfall

    I have a long driveway (240') with a good grade up to my private 
    house.  Sooooo I have it plowed.  I had good luck last winter 
    (a real bugger as I recall) but the guy is not going to do plowing
    this winter so I am going to have to find someone (help! I am in
    No. Andover, MA).  We always had a verbal contract: If he did not
    come, I did not pay him.  This probably will not work for a condo
    situation.  I got out of my d
    				 r
    				  i
    				   v
    				    e
    				     w
    Stan			      a
    				       y pretty easily today.
    

    Well, my new plower just came at 10:30 (according to the latest
    wife report).  I am not sure that is acceptable since I rarely leave
    for work that late.  Hmmmmmmmmmmm
    
    Stan

    Never having had a steep driveway before purchasing my house,
    I have a question about steep driveways and snow. Is it better
    to clear off all the snow from a minor snowfall or leave it
    down for traction so that ice does not form.
    
    
    					James

    James,
    
    Far better to sweep light snow to prevent ice.
    
    Marlene
    (owner of a driveway suitable for ski jumping)
    

    Thanks fr the responses. It's time to purchase a larger shovel
    for those light snows.
    
    					James

    Doesn't it depend on whether or not the driveway is paved?  We have a
    gravel driveway, and I can't imagine being able to get all the snow off
    of it.  If we were to shovel it, we'd be left with a thin ice layer,
    which seems much worse than packed snow and ice.  The two inches we
    just got seems perfect for forming a solid base, on which to run the
    snow blower when the real storms hit.  I just hope things don't warm up
    too much. 
    
       Gary

    Get a push-broom as well as a shovel, and get rid of ALL the snow, or
    you will soon have ice wherever car or foot traffic packs down the
    little bit of snow, and will be unable to get in/out, depending on
    which way your driveway is steep.  Be real rigorous about it!
    
    An easy way to spread sand (or salt, if you must; it's hard on your
    lawn and garden beds) is to put it in empty bleach or windshield-wash
    fluid bottles, the big plastic ones with the narrow necks and the
    handles.  Then you can easily spread the sand right where the car
    wheels will end up going.  This is easier to do if you have a second
    person to try to get the car to "stick" in the driveway while you pour
    sand under the wheels.  Sometimes it is also useful to keep a big rock
    next to the driveway - many times we've stuck the rock behind a wheel
    so the car can't slide out again in really slippery weather (probably
    nearly as many times as I've threatened to move out of this
    ~!@&#(*!&#()! climate!  YCHH!)  It goes without saying that if it is
    illegal to leave your car on the street in your town during a snow
    emergency, do *not* leave it on the street, no matter what you have to
    do to get it into the driveway, or at least onto the sidewalk (one of
    my neighbors routinely does that when he can't get into his driveway).
    Otherwise, the plow may hit it, or if it is really in the way the car
    will be towed to so plow can go through.
    
    Take it from one who knows - my driveway makes a 22 o angle with the
    horizontal; I can always get out, but frequently have trouble getting
    in, even on foot!  One of my neighbors bolted a small winch to the back
    wall of his garage.  When all else fails, if he can scale the driveway
    on foot, he gets the cable, hooks it to the car, and pulls the car off
    the street into the driveway!

You've got a smart neighbor!   8-)

Bob

      Take  it  e_a_z_y on the rock salt.  It will damage your driveway,
      car, shoes/boots, lawn/shrubery, water supply, etc. The first line
      of defense is to plow/sweep/shovel/blow th snow off the drive.  If
      you're left with ice user sand (or ashes,  as  suggested  earlier)
      which you can sweep up in the spring if necessary.
      
      If  you  must  use  salt,  don't user "salt", get melting crystals
      which work better at colder temperature and aren't as hard on  the
      driveway,  car,  etc.  And use the minimum amount that will do the
      job. 

    I too have a steep driveway.  If I know that a snow storm is comming
    instead of parking one car in the garage and one in the driveway,
    I park both cars in the driveway.  By doing it that way  I shovel
    less and the driveway stays (at least two car lengths) clean.
    
    
    					Bart Lasky

>    If I know that a snow storm is comming
>    instead of parking one car in the garage and one in the driveway,
>    I park both cars in the driveway.  By doing it that way  I shovel
>    less and the driveway stays (at least two car lengths) clean.
    
!?!?!?!?!?!?

Uhhhh....  What??  How does this lessen the amount of work?  You still have to
get the snow off the cars, which is generally more difficult in the first
place, since you don't want the damage the paint.  Since this is usually
accomplished by pushing the snow off the car (since you don't want to be using
the shovel on the car), you then have to shovel it off the driveway anyway,
where it would have been in the first place if you'd have kept the car in the
garage.  Why not skip step one and have a clean car to boot? 

Paul

    re: .7
    
    Where do I find a push-broom that will move the snow while leaving the
    gravel in place?  Or am I missing something obvious?   (I could have
    sworn the note on snowblowers said that you leave a layer of snow in
    place if you have a gravel driveway.)
    
       Gary 

    re: 11
    
    The type of driveway that I have has two stone walls on either of
    the driveway.  When shoveling the snow I have to lift the snow about
    3 feet to get it up over the wall.
    
    What I do instead is park both cars in the driveway and when the
    snow is over remove just enough snow from the windshield and drive
    in front of the house.  This way when I remove the snow from the
    car I just have to remove it from the street instead of picking
    it up.
    
    It makes for a cleaner driveway and happier BACK!
    
    					Bart Lasky

    I always leave both cars parked in the driveway, too - you could cram
    the smaller one into the garage if you had to, but the garage has a lot
    of other junk in it and is very small anyways (too small to work on the
    car if you need to be able to walk all the way round it, for example to
    do something like rotate the tires).  It really is easier to clear snow
    off cars than off our driveway.  Since we are on a steep hill, we get
    high winds.  The driveway tends to "fill in" with snow, since there is
    a short wall along one side of it and the lawn is also higher than the
    driveway for most of its length along the other side (not enough that
    we needed to put in a wall).  When a car is there, the top of the car
    is usually more or less clean, since the snow gets blown off it and
    into the side yard.  When the cars are out, the snow fills in the
    driveway instead.  I wouldn't want a gravel driveway on our steep hill;
    it'd be a mess in no time.  There used to be a gravel drainage path for
    the downspouts along the driveway and I got rid of that; the gravel
    used to end up all over the side yard by spring because it would get
    thrown when we shovel, and anyhow there was a lot of erosion (I routed
    the downpipe into the side yard and put in grass where the gravel was).
                         

    I've lived in two different houses that had steep driveways. One
    was paved the other was a dirt driveway. My experience was that
    the paved driveway was *much* worse in the Winter. The dirt drive
    was much worse in the Spring.
    
    The paved driveway was somewhat worn. We *had* to clear and scrape
    it after *every* storm. If we didn't ice would build up. Since the
    driveway was on the North side of the hill and was covered by trees
    it never saw the sun in Winter. If we let ice form it stayed until
    Spring. Getting a running start didn't help as the drive curved
    at the top so you had to slow down. The frustrating thing was that
    you would get stuck in the last ten feet of the 100 ft drive!
    
    The dirt drive was fairly straight but was about 125 ft. The drive
    was plowed when it snowed. We never did anything else. We never
    had problems getting up the drive. I drove a rear wheeled car too.
    The only problem with the dirt drive came in the Spring melt. It
    got so muddy that it was not possible to use it. Even if you could
    get your car up it you would leave such deep ruts that it wasn't
    worth it.
    
    Recommendations: If its paved, clear it after *every* storm. Scrape
    off *all* snow. This advice goes double for North facing drives.
    I agree with a previous reply about using ashes from a wood stove
    instead of salt. Use salt only as a last resort. Salt destroys
    concrete! It is also unhealthy for plants and other living things.
    
    		good luck,
    		Mark

    We have problems with water on the driveway when snow has been piled
    up on the sides (after a few storms and ploughings) and then it
    rains heavily!  There is nowhere for the water to run off.  Then
    as the temp drops, we get an ice-rink on the driveway!  Does any
    one have a solution to this kind of a problem?  Any suggestions
    would be most welcome
    
    Ramesh

    Buy skates or fix the drainage problem.
    

I now own a steep gravel drive.  I've heard that gravel is much better
than paving in the snow, since the gravel moves under the tires and
breaks up the ice.  So far, I've not needed to move any snow off it.
So far, the deepest we've gotten is an inch or two, but that would
have been enough to make glare ice on my old, flat asphalt drive.

Anyway, if/when we get a deep snowfall, I'm tempted to just shovel it 
down to 1 or 2 inches and leave it at that.  Can anyone with experience
with a steep gravel drive tell me if that has worked for you?  Or will
I regret it for the rest of the winter.

	Thanks,
	Larry

PS - I expect I'll have to regrade the gravel after the spring rains --
I noted that the old owner did that before trying to sell the house!

    One lazy winter day, after a 1" snowfall, I figured I didn't have
    to remove it as it would melt by the next evening.  WRONG!  A cold
    snap hit and I spewnt a week struggling to get up the driveway.
    Sweep the snow.
    
    Drainage:  My driveway angles towards the house and conforms to
    the street angle, i.e. the northwest corner (at the street) is 
    the high point and the southeast corner (near the house) is trhe
    lowest, so water flows from the north side down to the south side.   
    I got into the habit of clearing ~ 6" away from the edges so the 
    melting snow on the north side goes into the ground or runs down 
    the edge on the pavement.
    If the problem is the snow making a dam then make a path thru it
    before it solidifies & rains on it. Then when the ground thaws 
    install drainage pipes/ditches as required.
    
    Dirt drives:  A friend of mine dropped rocks up to football size
    in the ruts.  Eventually the rocks made a solid base for the car
    to ride on and improved the drainage enough for him to install
    a layer of gravel which held up very well in subsequent winters.
    
    							Don
    gled 

re .21:

Whether or not gravel drives are better in the snow, I've now learned
that they don't help in a freezing rain!  Got stuck halfway up this week.
Of course, that was quite a freezing rainstorm we had -- I could hardly 
even walk on the gravel in lug soles, it was so frozen. 

So I guess I'll take your advice and sweep ausidiously until spring.
Then, I'll solve the *real* problem by building a garage down near
the street level.

	Thanks,
	Larry

    	I recently purchased a house in Groton, MA, northwest of 495.  I've
    never had the "pleasure" of being responsible for snow removal on a
    driveway before.  I have an asphalt driveway that is about 175 feet
    long.  Fortunately, it is almost level.  How should I care for this
    beast?
    	I've had accumulations of 5" to 6" a few times this year and that
    generally takes me about 3 hours to shovel clean.  Hence, I'm
    considering having someone plow it or purchasing a snow blower.  What
    are the pros and cons of each.  Things that occur to me are as follows
    (they may or may not be true).

    Pros of having someone plow it:
    	I don't have to!

    Cons of having someone plow it:
    	I'm at the mercy of the schedule of the person plowing.
    	The plower may not be as careful as I am.
    	Will the blade damage my asphalt?
    	$25.00 every storm.

    Pros of a snow blower:
    	If I spend $700 - $800, I'll save money in a few years.
   	I can clear the driveway when I want.
    	I know I'll do a thorough job.

    Cons of a snow blower:
    	I still have to do the work.
    	Maintenance (how reliable are they)?
    	Initial cost.
    
    That's what I can think of off the top of my head.  How much faster is
    using a blower vs. shoveling?
    	Another question...  When should you use sand vs. salt and how much
    should you use?  Are there tricks to keeping the driveway in good
    shape?
    	One more question...  Should I move back to California instead?
    Thanks!
    				Peter

    
    For the past 4 years I've had my driveways (I have two) plowed and
    it has worked out great. The person I have doing it is very prompt,
    reasonably priced, and very careful. I like it because I don't have
    to wresle with a snow blower in a blizzard and I don't have to shovel!
    You can get your driveway plowed many times for $700-$800 dollars
    that a blower would cost. And yes, the driveway and adjacent lawn
    IS subject to damage with plowing esp. where the driveway meets
    the street, but I've found it to be VERY minor. So if you can find
    a good, dependable person to plow i think it is worth it. If not
    the snow blower would be my next option, but then I'd probably end
    up doing the neighbor's driveways too. The bottom line is ANTHING
    is better than shoveling! 
    
    Good luck
    

>>>    You can get your driveway plowed many times for $700-$800 dollars
>>>    that a blower would cost. 
   
      Yeah but, our family is still using the same snoblower we bought
    in 1974, it has become very cost effective. 
>>>    And yes, the driveway and adjacent lawn IS subject to damage   
>>>    with plowing esp. where the driveway meets the street, but I've 
>>>    found it to be VERY minor. 

        I like the fact that with the snowblower you can put the snow
    exactly where you want it rather than just plowing it.  It realy
    depends on your driveway long ones are a pain to snowblow.
    
>>>    So if you can find a good, dependable person to plow i think it 
>>>    is worth it. 

    Many times this is no easy trick!  They never seem to be around
    when *YOU* want the driveway cleared.
    
    
>>>    If not the snow blower would be my next option, but then I'd probably end
>>>    up doing the neighbor's driveways too    
        
    I am all too familiar with this! 
   
     
>>>    The bottom line is ANTHING is better than shoveling! 
    
      Agreed!
   
    
Don    
    
     
   

>    	One more question...  Should I move back to California instead?

Yes, unless it is to the Sierras.


I  prefer  the snow blower method.  I  am  not  dependant  upon  anyone  else's
schedule  for  plowing.    Some of my neighbors have  their  driveways  plowed.
Unfortunately,  the  city still comes around to plow the street  later  on  and
deposits snow embankments at the ends of their driveways.

I went with an 8HP, large wheels, chains that cost $900.  It is powerful enough
to go through 24" deep of wet snow at a slow, but steady pace - about the speed
we walk  through  the  supermarket  on shopping night.  Maintenence consists of
draining the gas  tank  each spring and changing the oil each fall.  Of course,
after I bought the snowblower, winters got mild - cheap insurance.  :-)

Dave

>    Pros of having someone plow it:
>    	I don't have to!

That's about it.

>    Cons of having someone plow it:

The blade won't damage your driveway appreciably.  Yes, you are at the 
mercy of the person plowing.  And very much yes, the plower won't be as careful 
as you.  And even if they were, they need somewhere to push the snow.  You need 
some areas near the house end of the driveway with no landscaping (shrubs, etc)
where he can push it.  And expect to do some reseeding of the lawn there in the 
spring, and also possibly at a few places along the sides where he accidentally 
scrapes the blade.

>    Pros of a snow blower:
>    	If I spend $700 - $800, I'll save money in a few years.

A *LOT* of years.  We probably average 5 storms a year that need plowing.  At 
$125 a year, that's about 6-7 years payback.  If you figure that you invest the
$800 now at 8% = $64 a year, then you're talking more like 15 years. 

>    Cons of a snow blower:
>    	Maintenance (how reliable are they)?

Generally quite reliable, if you buy a decent brand and *If you retire it 
properly at the end of each season*.  If you just let the gas sit in there with 
no additives all summer every year, it will get harder and harder to start as 
the years go by.

> How much faster is using a blower vs. shoveling?

Quite a bit, depending on how fast a shoveler you are. :^).  The thing with a 
snowblower is that it doesn't take appreciably longer as the snow amount 
increases.  It takes no longer to clear 8" than 3".  And when you get one of 
those 18" of heavy, wet snow storms that we get every few years, it will take
perhaps 50% longer than 6", instead of the 10 hours of shoveling it would take
you to do it by hand. 

> When should you use sand vs. salt and how much should you use?  

Since you said your driveway is reasonably level, if it gets a reasonable 
amount of sun, don't put anything on it.  You can drive and walk easily on the 
little trace of snow left by the snowblower, and in a day or two the sun will 
melt it.  The sand and salt are a pain, the salt kills the grass, and the sand 
tracks all into the house.  You really only need them if you have a sloped 
driveway.

> Are there tricks to keeping the driveway in good shape?

NEVER leave slush on the driveway.  Spend 2 hours out in the rain before you 
leave slush on the driveway.  If you get a cold snap immediately afterward, you 
will have an icy, rutted mess until the next thaw, which may be weeks.  I 
remember once in high school there was a 6" snow storm, followed by rain, 
followed by a deep freeze for 2 weeks.  One of our neighbors had to park their 
car in the road for the whole two weeks because their driveway was such a mess.

>    	One more question...  Should I move back to California instead?

And miss all this fun??

Paul

    Regarding the use of sand and salt.....First...DON't use salt.  If you
    have ice patches...put some sand on them.  Salt will not only cause
    "tracking" problems in the house...it will poison the soil and you will
    have large areas with no lawn, shrubs, etc.  The more salt, the more
    problems.  There might be some new chemical de-icers that reduce these
    problems but I use only sand.  I don't know if you have your own well,
    but if you do then the use of salt could pollute the drinking
    water...if the state causes the problem they drill a new well for
    you... If you cause the problem...you drill the well.
    
    Regarding the snowblower....after years of shoveling and getting
    someone to plow the driveway I purchased a snowblower....and keep
    asking myself why I didn't buy one sooner!!!  I find that using the
    machine is convenient, maintenance has been minimal, and the sun takes
    care of whatever is left behind.  Tip...when buying a snowblower shop
    dealers first.  Find one who will provide the service you want
    (delivery and pick-up of the machine, repairs, etc.) then shop
    price/model.
    Ric

  I don't know why nobody has mentioned another alternative which is
  actually not uncommon: own only 4WD vehicles, buy lots of liability
  insurance, and don't do anything.

    
    	How about buying a used pickup truck with a plow on it, do your
    driveway and then plow out other driveways at the $25/driveway?  In
    general, it might be better to give than to receive, but when it comes
    to bills, I'd rather have it the other way around.  ;-)
    
    								-craig

    Re .6    "I don't know why nobody has mentioned another alternative
    which is actually not uncommon: own only 4WD vehicles ..."
    
    I have a very steep, curvy driveway in addition to a 4WD car.  The car
    is useless in negotiating ice.  Moreover, you'll  still have to remove
    the snow so others can visit you and so that you can walk to your
    mailbox, etc.
    
    	Marlene

    If you have, or later develop, cracks or frost heaving on your
    driveway, then plowing can do a lot of damage.  Additionally, a
    truck with a plow won't be able to clear any walkways you may have. 
    
    I bought an 8 hp, 24" Toro a couple of years ago and I'm pleased
    with it.  I would suggest that for heavy snow areas you consider
    only 2-stage machines.  They throw farther and are less prone to
    clogging, although Toro makes a high end single stage that looks
    pretty good.  I also own an Ariens lawnmower, but I prefer the Toro
    warranty.  In my case, I have a rather steep driveway, so I was
    sold on the Toro's transmission (real gear case instead of the friction
    disk drive used on most others) and the power shift (which shifts
    the center of balance of the machine).
    
    If you decide to go with a snowblower, get the feel of them at the
    dealer.  The larger ones may clean faster, but there is a difference
    in handling.  I'm a large person, but I wouldn't want a machine
    larger than the one I have.
    
    Tony  

Quiet, dissenting vote for shovelling.

Yes, 175 feet is pretty long.  Yes, it *can* cause havoc with your back (but
so can heavy, unwieldy snowblowers, no?  I can only imagine, never having used
one).  But *sensible* shovelling is certainly "aerobic", and may help if you
think Thoreau's "simplicity" is worth striving for.

No debate please.  I won't win.

Marlene's point that you still have to remove snow if you have a slope is
correct. The original author's driveway is mostly level.

My brother-in-law has this situation (in Western NY, where they get mucho
snow), and doesn't remove snow unless it gets well over 18 inches. Visitors
park on the street at the end of the driveway (the street is wide and well
plowed) and walk (or crawl) to the house. Or he comes to meet them in one of
his vehicles, if they can't manage it. He doesn't get many uninvited visitors.

    Ditto on most everything.  Toro or Ariens are the two big names
    in snowblowers, I think.  Buy the dealer, not the brand; service
    is everything.  It won't (or shouldn't) need much service, but
    it will need some, eventually.  Buy from whatever dealer can give
    you the best service.  Buy a larger snowblower than you think
    you'd ever need; it will be more durable, and it will work faster.
    
    I'm not sure it's more cost-effective to buy a snowblower vs. hiring
    somebody to plow (it probably isn't), but the convenience and lack
    of property damage make owning a snowblower worth it to me.  It
    is still work to run the snowblower, but *NOTHING* like shoveling!
    
    Move back to California?  Where they have *EARTHQUAKES* and things!?  ;-)
    

Here in Colorado Springs, we don't get much snow. BUT when we do,
it's the fine snow that drifts. Colorado Springs city fathers
protected their butt by passing a law that says that you must
clear your sidewalks around your house or they will do it for you
and bill you what expense the city encure.

So, the alternative is let the city do it and pay the city's
rates.

In Ottawa, Canada, the city clears your sidewalk with a snow
blower that is a size of a golfcart.

Because of the amount of
snow, they bag the snow in snow bags and export the bags of snow
to Saudi Arabia for water. That is a way for the city to break
even for their snow removal costs. Some enterprising kids are
known to bag the snow themselves and earn pocket money.

What ever way you see fit, I just as sonn trade the security of
having to shovel snow over rebuilding my house after an earth
quake. Ask me, I used to live in Silly-cone valley.

Cal Hoe

      If  you not only need snow removal in winter but also grass mowing
      in summer, consider a multi-purpose garden tractor. There are many
      good  ones  to choose from.  I use a Gravely 2-wheel 12 horsepower
      tractor with (I think) a 30 inch, two stage blower.  Works fine to
      clear our 800 +/- feet of driveway.
      
      I  also have experience with a 24 inch blower on an older, 8 horse
      Gravely.  This always causes me to wonder when people talk about 8
      horse snow blowers. I doubt very much that 8 horses are enough for
      your 175'; I know they were inadequate for my drive.
      
      The smaller size/power blowers may be find for walkways and small/
      short driveways, but for serious snow removal I think 12 horses is
      a minimum.
      
      ...Now  I  lean  back and get dumped on by all the folks that love
      there small, light, maneuverable, etc. machines.

    	These replies have been a big help already!  I'm pretty convinced
    that a snow blower is for me now.  My next problem is what, when, and
    where to buy.

    	For 175 feet of driveway, should I forget about the 5 hp models and
    go for the 8 hp blowers?  That will probably bring the cost up from
    $700 to more like $1000.  I have between 3/4 and 1 acre of lawn to mow
    in the summer so would it be better to buy a lawn tractor and get a
    blower attachment as .14 suggested?  How much would that cost me?

    	By the way, I'm debating between a John Deere lawn tractor for
    about $2100 and a "professional" walk behind mower with a wider cut
    that places like the National Park Service use.  They run around
    $2700.  Any comments in light of the snow blower?

    	Next, should I rush out and buy one now or should I pay someone to
    plow this winter with the expectation that the snow blowers will go on
    sale in the spring and I'll get a great deal?

    	Finally, does anybody have a recommendation for a dealer in the
    Groton, Mass. area?

    	Thanks again!

    				Peter

    They have earthquakes here you know.  I lived in Nashua a few years ago
    when the one centered in Concord, NH, occurred.
    
    I live in Pepperell, MA now (next door to Groton) and have a 200'
    driveway off of a half mile dirt road.  I used to have it plowed ($20 -
    good price) until the guys doing it got less reliable and less careful.
    
    I ended up buying a plow for my truck and plowing it _when_ I wanted, 
    _where_ I wanted.  
    
    I would try the rent-a-plow-person route first - it may be very
    satisfactory, especially with a level driveway (mine is a hill),
    if the person is reliable.  If not, I would go for the snowblower in
    your situation.
    
    __Rich
    [I'm not sure I've added anything to this discussion, but everybody
     likes to grumble about the snow.]

    We've gotten good info and service from Shepherd's, on Rt. 119 in
    Townsend.  They carry both Ariens and Toro snowblowers.  We wound up
    buying a used Simplicity from elsewhere (used machines can be hard to
    find), but Shepherd's was more than willing to repair a leak in our
    carburettor, even though we didn't buy the machine there.  I consider
    that a good sign.  I know they'll deliver new machines, and I'm
    reasonably sure they'll pick up and deliver for repairs, at a nominal
    charge based on mileage.  Since Groton is nearby, the charge should be
    low.
    
    I don't know whether they're willing to haggle on price, as we didn't
    get that far.
    
       Gary

    A cheap alternative to "reasonable sized" driveways is a snow SCOOP!
    I got mine at True Value Hardware for $25.-  It's made of Vinyl which
    makes it cheap, but also SLIPPERY!  The snow slides out of it easily
    and you can push it around easily.  
    
    You don't have to do any lifting, but it's still good exercise.  And
    it's about 4 times faster than shoveling!  (one scoop = about 4 of the
    biggest shovel fulls you can lift!)
    
    Best of all, my 13 yr old son thinks it's FUN to use...  Actually asks
    me if I'll LET him shovel the driveway.... Weird kid...  
    
    Don 

A couple of comments that may be contrary to the majority...

First, I do not believe the DEALER from whom you buy is important.  I purchased
a Toro in Merrimack, NH for my father who lived in Saugus, Mass.  This was back
in mid '70s.  My choice  was  based  on  1)  Ariens, 2) 5hp, 3) Price (low & no
sales tax).  My father needed no-preventative  service  a  couple  of times and
took it to the nearest Ariens shop.  My mother still uses it, but in Billerica,
Mass.  She had the local Ariens shop come out, pick it up and tune it for her.

I purchased a Simplicity 8hp a few years ago (just before the greenhouse effect
put a stop to snow in Nashua) from a shop  in Manchester after comparing prices
in  and  around  Nashua  for  the same piece of equipment.   I  wondered  about
warranty  and/or  non-warranty  service;  all shops said they would service all
Simplicitys no matter where they were purchased.  I found the same attitude for
other brands at other shops - except Sears.

Second, I originally  had  the  good  idea of buying a "back end" piece of farm
equipment the could adapt  to  snow blowers, lawn mowers, garden digger_uppers,
paint  sprayers,  helicopters,  etc.   I  talked  to  John  Deere,  Ariens  and
Simplicity dealers (all of those manufacturers  offer  building  block settups)
and they ALL recommended against doing it.    First,  they  all believed that a
"building  block"  snow  blower  was not as good  (effieient,  reliable)  as  a
dedicated snow blower - same for lawn mover.   Second,  they  showed me that it
would actually be MORE expensive to get what I wanted  using the building block
method.

Finally, let  me  suggest  some  criteria  (in  order  of  importance) for your
selection.

* "Major  manufacturer"  -  Ariens,  Bolen,  Deere,  Honda,  Simplicity,  Toro.
  Consumer Reports had an  article  last  year  that talked about them and what
  their  strengths  and  weaknesses  were;    you  may  not  like  CR  and  its
  recommendations, but the data about the units tested is valid.

* 2  stage  (1  assembly  for the wheels, 1 for the auger),  although  I  think
  anything >= 5hp is 2 stage now.

* Width of blower front end.   The  wider  it is, the fewer passes you'll make.
  Height is not too important around here since we  seldom get more than 12" in
  any one storm and it has been a LONG time  since we got that.  "Drift buster"
  assemblies are a waste of $$$ and they are not reliable.

* 8 hp, more or less.  HP is important for 3 reasons;  ability to munch through
  the retainer wall a  street  plow  puts up, distance the auger will throw wet
  snow, ability to go uphill.

* Large diameter tires.   First, larger tires make it easier to get around with
  traction  in  deep, wet snow.  Second, as  the  axle  height  increases,  you
  effectively move the center of gravity forwards to the  front  end helping to
  keep it down when hitting plow banks.

* Chains.  Never had a problem without chains on  a  flat  driveway, absolutely
  necessary on a sloping driveway with an ice cover - both normal around here.

* "Differential Rear End".   Turning around one of those monstrous 8hp units in
  a small space can be a chore since they  use "live" axels and both wheels are
  chugging;  going into neutral is  not  much help since those units are HEAVY.
  I think that all the 8hp units permit you to dis-engage one wheel which helps
  since only 1 wheel is actually powered, but then the blower tends to "wander"
  on the straight-away.  The "Differential Rear End" permits  one wheel to stop
  driving while turning around, much the same as an automobile.  I looked at an
  Ariens with this feature, but declined since it added ~200 to  the cost and I
  was already at the top of my budget.  In retrospect, I  should  have paid the
  bucks.  

* Wind Screen.   Only  worth  it  when  the  wind blows snow back at your face.
  However, wet snow then sticks  to  the  front of the screen.  Also, sticks up
  ~7' so can be a pain if you store the blower under a deck or in a lawn shed. 
  
* Electric start.  Must be a high profit item since they all push them.  I have
  it  on  both Mother's Ariens and my Simplicity.  We have never needed to  use
  the starter.

Hope this help.

Then again, if you lived in Carmel, you would not care less......

Dave

    Why spend a grand? If you're in doubt about which way to go, look
    for a used snowblower. Those suckers seem to depreciate *rapidly*,
    and there's plently of folks out there who, for whatever reasons,
    don't need a snowblower (or tractor, or lawnmower, etc) anymore.
    For the amount of use the average homeowner will put into it, buying
    a new one makes little sense to me.
    
    John

    I use a Craftsman 2-stage, 5 horse (I think) 22 inch.  I don't think
    I'd buy another one, even though this one has never needed repairs and
    always starts easily.  The factory sealed transmission has leaked from
    about the time the warranty ran out and they told me just to run it 
    until it causes problems.  10 years so far and still no problems. 
    Also, the chute control has always been annoying.  I'm not complaining,
    I just think there are probably better machines out there.  This one
    cost me $550 ten years ago, and I have spent zero dollars on
    maintenance, if you don't count the few quarts of oil and small amount
    of grease I've used.  
    
    Some things to consider:
    
    1. where are you going to keep it?  You want it near to the driveway
       and you want to be able to get it out without moving a car.  Mine
       fits in a space between the two garage doors.  If it were much
       bigger it wouldn't fit there and I don't know what I'd do with it.
       So the next one I get will be about the same size, even though it
       is a little underpowered for the wet snows.  You also probably want
       somewhere to store it out of the way in the off-season.
    
    2. I use it to clear the walk to the door we use in the winter.  If it
       were any wider or heavier it would be hard for me to use for this
       purpose.  I also use it to dig out the mailbox on the street, as
       the town plow always makes the mailbox inaccessable to the
       mail carrier.
    
    3. Who's going to be using it.  Even though it makes life much easier,
       there are many times I've really had to muscle this thing around,
       particularly to get it to do the big slushy piles of snow the town
       plows leave at the end of the driveway.  A bigger plow would be
       more likely to handle the big piles but less easy to manhandle if it
       doesn't.
    
    4. How are you going to handle servicing.  I've always done my own
       servicing.  Dirty work, but not hard.  You should change the oil,
       and grease it every season.  If you don't do that kind of thing
       yourself then you have to arrange for transportation to the shop.  
       My snowblower will fit in my minivan, and is light enough so that
       two moderately muscular persons can lift it in.  There are places
       that will come out and pick up your blower, but that adds to the
       cost.
    
    					- Vick

    
    I'd second the comment about buying a used snowblower.  I bought
    one four years ago for $300 , an 8hp 'noname' with Tecumseh engine,
    and haven't had any problems. (though it needs a tuneup now...)
    
    Definitely go for 8hp.  I have a 130 ft. driveway plus parking
    area, and couldn't imagine doing it with any less hp.  Then again
    my driveway is uphill, and tends to ice over due to all the 
    pine trees lining the sides.  
    
    Personally I like the electric start---I have a hard enough time
    pullstarting the lawnmower!  And the chains are a must for the hilly
    driveway.
    
    just my 2 cents
    
    deb
    

    My dad has a small tractor with a *plow* that he uses for mowing
    in the summer and clearing snow in the winter.  Like any multipurpose
    tractor it has the advantage of not sitting idle during most of
    the year, and you don't have to find space for both a snowblower
    and a lawn-mower, and there's only 1 machine to maintain.   He
    likes it better than the snowblower he had previously.
    
    -tm
    

    Looking at what .0's driveway length and yard size, that has to be
    mowed all summer, makes me dam happy I've only got half the work
    to do (my place is about 1/2 the size of that).  I've got the 8hp.
    Ariens snowthrower that has all the goodies; has big wheels and 
    with differential, electric start, etc., and a Snapper lawn mower 
    that is 3.5hp, rear wheel gear drive, etc.  For what I do, I've
    got what I need.  But, for twice the job, then for mowing, I'd want
    something that I could drive.  However, sit-down mowers can't get in
    tight places as walk-behinds can.  It might be better then to go
    for a lawn tractor that a thrower attachment can be added.  But,
    as said earlier, may not be as good of a performer as a good
    snowthrower and lawn mower.  Everyone has different equipment needs.
    And for sure, there's NO way I would ever try to shovel a 170 foot
    driveway for each snow storm.  Oh, my aching back!
    
    

    I bought my Jacobsen about 10 years ago.  The dealer in Syracuse
    recommended the 6 HP for a large 30 inch( I think) unit.  His logic was 
    that the limiting factor was not horsepower, but the units ability to
    get rid of the volume of snow.  I was very skeptical, but he offered a
    good tradein if I was not satisfied.  Well, the unit can throw a lot of
    snow and even the wet junk that clogs a lot of units.  The horsepower
    is fine.  The point is to look over the units carefully and check out
    the size of the discharge chute because if that is too small, you can't
    move the volume of snow.  
    
    One of the dealers recommendations was that the unit be used.  That
    once started run it for awhile so that it really warms up and the parts
    get a good workout.  I have done neighbors drives for years and with
    minimal maintenance the units is still working.  So good care makes a
    difference.
    
    Ariens and Toro seem to be the most recommended units today.  Never
    hear much of Jacobsen and so don't know if they even are in the
    business.  A good dealer, good maintenance, and a quality machine will
    provide excellent service for many years. 

Here's a recommendation for honest and low pressure sales/service:

Al's Power Equipment, located along Rte 119 in Pepperell (about 1/4 mile
 west of the Groton town line).

The brands he carries include Toro, Ariens, and Gilson.

He sold me a Gilson snow thrower and a Toro rider mower, both of which I am
 very happy with.

  Joe M.

    I used to have a riding mower (a snapper) with the snow blower
    attachment.  From a personal amusement perspective, you can't beat it!
    But there were some practicalitity problems: 
    
    1. toward the end of the season (March) you are faced with a big
       decision -- when to take the snowblower off and put the mower deck
       back on.  This is not a trivial job, so timing is critical -- 
       especially here in Mass. where we can get some heafty snows in 
       late March.  So you can get into a situation where the grass is 
       starting to look a bit unsightly while you remain poised to do 
       battle with the snow.  On the other hand, some of those late
       snow storms tend to be VERY heavy, making shoveling unplesant. 
    
    2. when in snowblower mode, you are sitting down.  While this sounds 
       comfortable, you can wind up with a lap full of snow (particularly 
       on a windy day).  Try it sometime when the temp. is about 5 degrees, 
       the amusement factor wears off real fast -- I've found that the 
       walk-behind snowblowers (what I currently use) tend to keep you much 
       drier. 
    
    3. I never had manuverability problems with the Snapper, but I also
       have a level driveway.  A snowblower is a lot of weight (about
       300lb) on the front end of a fairly light vehicle like a riding 
       mower. You need chains and wheel weights to get any traction. 
     
    
    Also, for what it's worth, don't even condider one of those little snow
    plow attachments for a riding mower.  The rider is just not heavy enough
    to move snow.   If you want to plow, you need a couple thousand pounds
    worth of pickup truck behind the plow to push snow. 

    For additional discussion and seemingly endless supply of replies about
    snowblowers, you might want to look over 655, 1508, 2624, 2815.

    	After the first time you use a snow blower, do a careful inspection
    of the discharge chute - where does the snow stick and tend to block
    things up?  Buy a can of spray Silicon lube. Keep the can with the snow
    blower. Just before using the blower, spray the areas where the snow
    tends to stick.  Works on snow shovels too. - Chris

I just bought a Toro PowerCurve 1800, which is their best electric
snowthrower.  The PowerCurve is a new design which really does a good job
at moving the snow.  Though an electric snowthrower is completely inadequate
for a 175-foot driveway, it works very well at under 100 feet.  And the
price (I paid $259 for mine in NH, saw it at $239 in Mass. at Spag's) is
a lot lower than gas models of equivalent performance.  I highly recommend it
if it suits your needs.

				Steve

    I'll second Al's power equipment in Groton. Nice guy, and decent
    prices.
    
       I was picking up some spare parts 2 weeks ago and Al tells me that
    the snowblower market is BAD. A lot of Dealers are biting the dust and
    Toro is having some $ problems again. It is nice to know if there is a
    problem it will be taken care of. When I bought my 8hp toro 2 years
    ago, it wouldn't start for the first big storm of the year. Al gave me
    a couple of things to do, but they didn't work. I told Al to come get
    it. When I arrived home from work that night, it was back working very
    nicely. Things like this make me recommend Al. By the way, I haven't
    had a lick of problems since then with my Toro. My dad use to buy the
    dept store brands and they always broke. His neighbor is still using
    his 1968 toro. You get what you pay for.
    
       I have a 75 ft drive way, but it is 2 cars wide and made up of
    gravel. I like the 8 hp. It is kept in my garage so I don't need the
    electric start.
    
       On one of the hints given earlier, I have a nit to pick. Before you
    use up all the gas at the end of the season, Change the oil. Don't
    wait till fall as you are leaving all the acids in the sump. Best to
    leave the machine dry of gas with a batch of fresh oil in the sump.
    
       Also, I give my blower a light waxing in the fall to keep the wet
    snow from sticking to it and to keep it from rusting . Another is to
    keep a small amount of dry gas in the fuel as the environment they
    are used in promotes condensation.
    
    john
                                      

    I just read all the above reponses after clearing my driveway and walks
    this morning and here's my advice:
    
    1.  I prefer a snowblower to having my driveway plowed.  That way, you
    can make a command decision whether to shovel yourself or go power.
    I only have about 75 feet of double width driveway so most times I can
    and like to shovel by hand.  I like this option.  Having my driveway
    plowed takes all the fun out of it. 
    
    2.  When the snow is too deep or heavy, I turn to my family heirloom
    Craftsmen single-stage snow blower.  It's old (30 years), makes a groan 
    now and then, but never fails. 
    
    3.  Growing up, we also acquired a Toro electric start two stage which
    was very nice.  The advantage of electric start is in re-starting after
    an initial snow-blowing where the rope of a manual start will likely 
    freeze solid and not re-coil.  I know.  Imagine using your bare hand 
    on the coil housing for warmth to get the rope back into the housing!
    
    4.  Having used both types, I recommend a two stage, electric start,
    but my old Craftsmen is better than nothing.  I have chains and have
    never ever got stuck, even in the blizzard of 78.  
    
    5.  I recommend that you not do anything right now, and wait until
    the spring/summer.  Pick up a WANT AD and find someone moving and 
    pick one up second-hand.  The prices of new ones are outrageous, and,
    with a minimum of care (listed elsewhere in this topic) a snow blower
    will last forever.  Remember that a snowblower ends up with gallons of
    water dumped on it during each use and need to be heavily greased and
    cleaned to avoid rusting and corrision.
    
    On another issue, I have never found a reason to use salt on any
    driveway or sidewalk.  The damage to house and lawn far exceed the
    benefits.
    
    Frank  
    
     It still works just fine except for the
    obvious problems with snow clogging up the chute (single stage blowers
    will always do this).  

    We have a long steep driveway and a 2 acre lot, for which 
    we purchased a 14hp Sears tractor, with a mower and snow
    thrower.  The lawn mower works fine. The snow thrower isn't
    adequate for the job; I can't get the tractor back *up* the
    driveway after plowing down even if I lift the attachment
    clutch and try to drive up the cleared strip. (My 50 lbs
    heavier partner can but he has to hang is rump off the
    end of the tractor to do it - pretty funny looking.)
    
    Sears has told us that there is no hope; this tractor is not
    going to drive up a 10 degree slope that has a thin layer of
    snow on it. They have offered to take the whole thing, or
    the snow thrower only, back for a credit.  We have to decide
    whether to return the snow thrower only, or the entire unit.
    My question is: are there any tractors made that will be
    both good lawn mowers and able to snow throw our driveway?   
    Sears doesn't make such a device, and they claim that no one
    else does either.  We would like to know if a plowing service
    really is our only option.  
    
    Before buying the sears, we talked to John Deer. The salesguy
    told us that the John Deer tractors had better belts.  We
    decided we could buy a lot of belts for the $1000 price
    differential, so I don't think a John Deer is the answer.  
    (I mention this because several people have told us that 
    our problem was buying sears and not john deer, but none of 
    these people have steep driveways.) The tractor does a fine
    job on the flat turn around at the top of the driveway.
    
    I looked at the other snowthrower and lawn tractor notes; none
    that I can find address a steep driveway.  

    Do you have chains and weights for the tractor?? 
    
    When I was a kid we had a Bolens (?) tractor with a snow-thrower.  It
    also had tire chains and cement blocks that bolted through the wheel
    rims.  It seemed to make it up our driveway fine, but it was less 
    steep than 10 degrees.
    
    (But then again, it never ran very well in the winter so we didn't use
    it much....)
    
    Cheers,
    jeff
    

re.0
   Have you considered not using a tractor mounted/driven snow blower?
A co-worker has a Sear 16 horse tractor which he originally planned to 
use for mowing and snow blowing. He sent the $700+ single stage snowblower
attachment back to Sears after having both belt problems and getting stuck
problems. He put about another $300 with the $750 and bought an 8hp Ariens
two stage blower (walk behind) that does his driveway quicker and better
than the tractor ever did. It is also much more maneuverable than the 
tractor mounted blower for doing sidewalks or other narrow areas.
On top of that he doesn't have the conversion headaches from mower to blower
and back in the Spring and fall.

	Dave 

    I have the same problem.  I purchased a used Sears and snowblower which
    was in exceptional shape but our driveway does not let the snowblower 
    go up and down easily even with chains and my weight.
    
    I had thought about getting a plow blade for it but was not sure how
    that would work.  I understand that the blade goes for around $100
    and that would be money well spent if it worked.
    
    My driveway is also fairly steep so I can appreciate the problems 
    that you are having 

    I had the exact same problem as .0. I had a Sears 10 HP tractor
    with a Snow blade. The blade created front weight problems so I
    bougt wheel weights, drilled out the wheels and added 33 lbs per
    side. That's all it took. I'm also 6'2" 220 lbs. I friend of mine
    has a Wheelhorse with blower and he HAS to add 120lbs to get traction.
    
    I sold my tractor, bought a mower and a Toro 8HP Power Shift
    snowblower. . . . I'm much happier.
    
    Ken

RE:last couple, I've used various tractors w/snowblower attachments on my
albeit short, but very steep driveway. They can do the job if you have chains,
heavy wheel weights and heavy weight attached to the trailer hitch flange.
The best approach is to plow down and drive up the cleared path. The most
successful tractor with snowblower was an Arien (2 stage snowblower). 
I've always found that I can pile on more weight to solve traction problems.
(BTW, steel barbell weights work very well).

Ross 

    How about a 4WD ATV that all the motorcycle companies make.  I priced a
    Polaris once, and it was about $3.5K with a snow blade on it. They
    offer other attachments to on the thing as well.

    
    You can also add weight the way they do on real tractors- fill the
    tires with a calcium chloride solution.  Of course, the first time you
    cut grass in "mud season", you may never see the tractor again.
    
     I had a Sears tractor with a snowblower tears ago- I had a steep
    driveway and had the usual traction problems.
    
     I ended up making my own concrete wights of about 50# each and put
    chains on- that cured the problem. What I did end up with was still a
    lousy snowblower, since most of these tractor units are single stage.
    
     I now have a garden varity two stage snowblower- I found it much more
    manueverable than the tractor mounted one and a much better snow
    removal machine. The new ones with tractor tread have terrifc traction,
    but aren't quite as manueverable as ones with wheels (always get the
    chains).
    
     Based on having owned both - and on a steep hill- I'd go for a good
    quality (ariens etc) snowblower- I'd get the ones with wheels and
    chains- make sure you get pnuematic tires, not the cheap verions with 
    solid tires- If Sears gives you the option of returning it- take it-
    I'd spend the extra bucks for the Big Sears 8 HP snowblower with
    chains, or the tractor treads if you prefer.
    
     I found the tractor mounted snowblowers not very manueverable and poor
    for blowing snow- the advantage was a nice wide swath.
    
    
    D................
    
     
     
    

    I know this note doesn't exactly belong here, but rather than starting
    a new note...
    
    Does anyone have any recommendations for a good/reliable snow plower in
    the Groton, MA area (name, rates, etc.)??  Any info. would be greatly
    appreciated!
    
    Thanks!
    
    							-SKD-

Instead of replying here, try note 2034.

There should probably be a separate note for snow removal people, but I don't
have time to add it now.

Paul

I have a variant on the question in the base note.  I have two gravel
driveways (one steep, one flat) and I'm considering either paving one
or both with blacktop, pavers, or concrete.

My question is, what are the pros and cons of using a snowblower on these
different driveway surfaces, for steep and for flat driveways?  And if
gravel is ok, how do I keep un-shovelable ruts from forming in the gravel?
Do you have trouble with lots of gravel getting scraped up with the snow?


Background:  I moved to Massachusetts from California 14 years ago,
and I've been fairly happily doing as .10 suggests -- using a muscle
powered snow shovel as an excuse for getting exercise.

Unfortunately, this last winter was just too much.  Even with a snow
scoop, I just couldn't deal with multiple 2' and 3' snowstorms, especially
given the 4' high by 6' wide hard packed wall of snow at the end of my
driveway after a couple of those central Mass. storms.

A plow service is not an option for me.  My steep driveway is narrow
and has limited places to push off snow.  I've hired plow drivers with 
excellent reputations and still gotten a lot of damage to shrubs and turf 
(and lots of gravel scraped off).  The flat drive is better for plows, but 
I still have to hand shovel part of it, due to the configuration.  

So, I'm going to get a snow blower (no recommendations, please, there are
several long notes strings from which I can get advice about that).  What
I do want advice about is whether people with gravel driveways are happy
with using snow blowers on them, or whether I would find it simpler to
use a snow blower on a more solid driveway surface.  I'm still doing 
landscaping and stuff -- if I'm going to pave instead of spreading more 
gravel, now is the time to do it.

	Thanks,
	Larry

    re .35
    
    A paved driveway is definitely easier to snowblow than a gravel
    driveway.  If you have the money and are considering doing it I'd
    definitely have it paved.
    
    We have a gravel driveway, that is, thankfully, flat.  We use a
    snowblower on it and the results are ok.  One thing we had to do was
    raise up the snowblower by putting some skids on the bottom otherwise
    it would just bog down in the gravel, plus, the skids prevent the
    snowblower from tossing tons of gravel into the yard (although we do
    get a fair amount anyway).  We do have about an inch of snow left          
    afterwards but once you drive over it it gets packed right down.  
    
    Susan

    I threw many bushels of gravel through my snowblower, including
    a few 6" stones before I gave in a paved my driveway.
    My snowblower thanked me :-)
    
    -Peter
    

    	I have a crushed stone driveway (3/4" stones) which is flat at the
    base with a steep (30-40 degrees), narrow incline towards the street.
    Total length of the driveway is about 150 feet. I use an old, crappy
    snowblower on it (I wouldn't use a new one on it).
    	What happens is that the stones are pretty loose in early winter. I
    adjust the skids on my snowblower as high as they will go (about 3").
    Even so, I still end up scraping up and throwing quite a few stones due
    to ruts and uneveness in the surface. With repeated storms and
    sub-freezing temperatures, everything packs down into a nice, hard
    surface which provides good traction because of the rocks sticking
    through. I can then lower the skids and scrape all the way down to the
    surface, hardly throwing any rocks. As spring approaches, the problems
    return as the stones loosen up again.
    	When I have the snowblower "jacked up," I end up having to go over
    the whole driveway (or at least the inclined part) with a shovel to
    scrape it down. So it's very time-consuming. Also, the sound of rocks
    in your snowblower is not a pleasant one, and every once in a while,
    you get one lodged in the auger.
    	Every couple of years, I buy more crushed stone for the driveway
    and even it out with a rake...Again, a lot of work, and you can't
    really get it to stay perfect. You'll still end up with an uneven
    surface. If I could afford to get mine paved, I'd do it and buy a good
    snowblower while I was at it.

    I've got a flat gravel driveway.  I don't have any trouble using a
    snowblower on it, with the skids raised as per .38.  I don't think
    mine go up 3" though - more like 1.5".  My driveway doesn't have
    loose stones on it at all; it's more "dirt" than gravel, and once
    it freezes it's no problem at all.  If one had a driveway with 
    loose crushed rock, a couple inches deep, then one might have a lot 
    of trouble, I don't know.

How about a driveway composed of crushed stone dust (starpack) on top of
gravel?  I gather that gravel driveways are only a serious problem if
the gravel is loose.

There are parts of my drives that get very little sun, so earlier notes
about ice rinks forming on shaded asphalt drives cause me some concern.

	Thanks!
	Larry

    I had star pack on top of gravel, but the stones in the gravel
    floated to the surface in some areas.  

We have a mixture of 3/4" rough stones and stone dust.  In the places
where the stone dust is still at the surface, it holds fairly well.  In
the places where the stone dust has either settled or run off, we have
loose rocks.  We survived fairly well this winter, breaking our
first shear bolt in two years of snow blower operation.  It is, however
clearly time to touch up the driveway surface.

I believe you'll find that the stone dust or combination stone and
stone dust works well, but requires frequent (every 2-3 year) touch ups.

   Gary

Folks,

I'm living in Colorado --- up in the mountains where it snows alot.
I bought a snow-fence in an effort to prevent snow from blowing/collecting
on my driveway.

My question is:  Are there any rules of thumb as to how far from the driveway 
                 the snow-fence should be placed?
                  
Thanks for any experinced snow-fencer comments.

Bruce Mackenzie-Low

    My sister (who lives in MA) also is inquirying about the "how to's" on
    snow fences.  She lives atop a hill and continually gets snow drifts
    on her driveway/walkway from the strong winds.

    
    I have never used a snow fence, nor do I play one on TV. The following
    is based on years of observing (And shoveling) snow, and a meterology
    course.
    
    The theory behind snow fences is that you can place an obstacle in the
    path of a prevailing wind and cause snow to build up on the lee side
    (the side protected from the wind) of the obstacle. (This is because
    the obstacle breaks the wind, causing it to eddy and slow down, so it
    can no longer hold the snow it was blowing.)
    
    Therefore, a snow fence for a driveway is placed on the windward side
    of the driveway, and will work best when the prevailing wind is roughly
    perpendicular to the driveway.
    
    
                x-----x-----x-----x-----x  snow fence     
    
                         (drift)                         |
                                                         |
              ---------------------------------          | prevailing
                                                         |
                        driveway                         |    wind
                                                         |
              ---------------------------------          V
    
    
    A vertical cross section of the resulting (theoretical) snow coverage
    looks like this:
    
                           --------------->  prevailing wind
           A     B                    C                            D
             |*******  
             |******
    ******   |********                                           *******
    *********|**********                                    ************
    *********|**************   ---------------------   *****************
           fence                      driveway             `- snow
    
    
    A: Fence elevates wind speed on windward side, digging out a
       small amount of snow.
    
    B: Wind speed drops and eddies form immediately behind fence,
       depositing lots of snow.
    
    C: Air flow smooths out beyond turbulence caused by fence, and drops to
       ground, sweeping driveway clear.
    
    D: normal air flow and snow accumulation resume some distance
       thereafter.
    
    Needless to say, the distance between the snow fence and the driveway
    is somewhat critical. Placing the fence immediately next to the driveway
    is obviously not a good idea; placing it too far away is a waste of snow
    fence.
    
    Based on observations, I would start by positioning the fence about two
    to three times its height away from the driveway, then take lots of notes
    on accumulation to adjust next years placement.
    

   Well, I've put up my mother-in-law's snow fence a couple of times and
   shoveled next to it for years, so I guess I have a little experience
   with them...
   
   It typically goes in bewtween 4-8 feet from the areas we are
   protecting - in this case, a sidewalk and driveway.   To the best of
   my knowledge, she has never been terribly scientific about measuring
   just how far away it gets installed.  My biggest concerns when
   installing it myself have been leaving enough room for throwing snow
   from the sidewalk and for the plow that does her driveway to have room
   to push the snow off to the side a little.
   
   One thing to remember is that over time you will get air currents
   around/over the top of the fence, so you need to leave some room for
   that.  Think of it like you would see "drafting" around a large truck.
   This is particularly true as the level of the snow gets closer to the
   top of the fence.   The snow will create a secondary drift on the
   backside of the fence sort of like this:

   
                              __   
                     --------/  ||__
   top of snow -> ---/          ||  \        wind direction ====>>>>
                                ||   \
                                ||    --
                                ||      \
                                ||       ---
                       fence--> ||          -------     <-- more snow 
   

   You will find out what really happens with your configuration as the
   year progresses, so next year will be better, but you will still see a
   vast improvement, even if you get the placement a little off.  
   
   btw, don't expect perfection.  The snow fence will do its job, but, it
   *may* not completely eradicate the problem.  You should see a great
   reduction in the size (or at least location) of your snow drifts, but
   you may get *some* anyway.
   
   fwiw,
   
   - Tom

   Interesting... I was writing .3 when .2 was entered.  Looking at both
   notes, there are some minor differences, but a good number of
   similarities too.  From what I've seen, the snow on the windy side of
   the snow fence builds up pretty quick, even when you account for the
   air currents that are mentioned in .2.  But then, given what you are
   trying to do with a snow fence, and where you will probably install
   it, this is not a big deal.
   
   One thing that we both implied without really saying it... try to get
   a fence that will remain taller than your expected accumulation for
   most of the season.  Taking into account some melting and compressing
   of snow, this shouldn't be too tough, but the fence is ineffective
   once the snow on the windy side reaches the top of the fence.
   
   One year (maybe last year, I'm not sure), we had so much snow that I
   ended up creating a temporary snow fence with blocks of snow I was
   cutting out of the snow drift.  This at least gave some protection
   until the accumulation in the yard was below the top of the fence
   again.
   
   Regards,

   - Tom

re: .2 & .3

thanks much for your snow fence recommendations.  It appears as though
a little 'trail and error' will be in order --- but it never hurts to
understand the theory behind something.

My situation is a little unique in that the driveway that I'm trying to
protect is at the bottom of a treed, sloped hillside, ie:


  Wind direction -->
                               ^     ^
                              /| ^  /|\       /    y   /
                               |/|\  |       /    a   /
_______open windy area_________|*|   |      /    w   /
                                *|t    ^   /    e   /
                                   r  /|\ /    v   /
                                    e  | /    i   /
                                     e | |   r    |
                                      s|_|  D     |


my snow fence is currently placed by the 2 asterisks (*) in the picture
running parallel with the driveway about 25 feet away from it.

I guess time will soon tell --- since it's snowing up here as I type.

Thanks again, Bruce.

I thought it might be useful to have a repository of
snowblower rituals that folks find make using it easier...
especially in these snowy days (in new england at least).

I'll start this off with a few of my favorites:

Start from the northwest corner of the area to snow blow
and work my way to the southeast, thus taking advantage
of typical post-storm northwesterly winds, and avoiding
more accumulations on already-covered territory.

Make two passes: first pass is at low or moderate speed
trying to gobble as much snow as possible. This leaves things 
looking a bit sloppy, but I think is most efficient at getting as
much snow as will fit thru the shoot per unit-time.
The idea is that if the augers can't completely gobble a 20" swath,
and leave some behind, then they are operating at 100% efficiency.
Second pass is at fastest speed, and cleans up the slop
from pass one.

Anyone else walk their snow blowers down steps? I find it saves time...
and allows me to do a path that has steps at both path ends. As long
as there is enough snow (no problem this year), and you let the blower
with the augers pointing up/wheels down as much as possible you won't
hurt the blower.

Anyone else notice their snowblowers to be "right-augered" or
"left-augered"? That is, the blower seems to pick up more snow,
or jam less when feeding a 20" deck with 10" from the right (or left),
or when having the shoot go right or left? Mine seems to favor
snow on the right for less jams. I also suspect I can throw
snow furthur to the right too, but I've never measured it...

... A snowblow operator who knows his snowblower is a happier snowblow operator...
or Zen, and the art of Snowblowing ...

    sounds like you been spending too much time with your snowblower!? :-)

>Start from the northwest corner of the area to snow blow
>and work my way to the southeast, thus taking advantage
>of typical post-storm northwesterly winds, and avoiding
>more accumulations on already-covered territory.

Great!  That'll put all the snow up against my house

>Anyone else walk their snow blowers down steps? I find it saves time...
>and allows me to do a path that has steps at both path ends. As long
>as there is enough snow (no problem this year), and you let the blower
>with the augers pointing up/wheels down as much as possible you won't
>hurt the blower.

I go UP the steps.  It's a lot easier than trying to hold the snow blower 
back against gravity.

>Anyone else notice their snowblowers to be "right-augered" or
>"left-augered"? That is, the blower seems to pick up more snow,
>or jam less when feeding a 20" deck with 10" from the right (or left),
>or when having the shoot go right or left? Mine seems to favor
>snow on the right for less jams. I also suspect I can throw
>snow furthur to the right too, but I've never measured it...

Haven't noticed any "jamming" issues either way and I always take a full 
swath.  Anything less is wasted time.  If you can't take a full swath 
you've bought an under-powered snow blower or you're running it too slow.

As for throwing right or left, once the snow enters the chutes on the newer 
units, right or left is a moot point.  If you have an older type that 
throws the snow right out of the impeller plenum w/o any deflector, the 
snow will travel farther coming off the top side than off the bottom side 
simply because the top is higher and the snow will travel farther when it 
exits higher.

>>Start from the northwest corner of the area to snow blow
>>and work my way to the southeast, thus taking advantage
>>of typical post-storm northwesterly winds, and avoiding
>>more accumulations on already-covered territory.
> Great!  That'll put all the snow up against my house

	I've heard many people who believe that putting the snow against
	the house is a *good* thing.  It provides extra insulation (ie.
	it will help protect your house against cold winds, etc, just
	like snow does for plants, etc).

	Whether it's true of not I don't know....

My driveway (~250') turns into a more wooded area so I have to 'play the wind'
for each section I end up doing.  If its a very calm day (I haven't seen one of
them in a while) then I can just run up and down.

Depending on the wind direction, I either start with 'the long run' or start in
near the car port along the 'short run'.  I really hate getting snow blown back
into my face !

If the snow is real heavy (not yet this year) AND there isn't any wind, I'll
play to my Arien's strong side (throwing) which is to the right.

Since I do have 250' worth of driveway, I tend to take it a little slower and 
make only one pass instead of two.  I used to do the 'two pass' method when I
when I was growing up and clearing the 1/8th acre (including driveway/sidewalk)
in Quincy.

Usual time spent between driveway/walkways (for dogs/kits/utility paths) is
1->1:30 hours.

Brian J

    re .91
    
    	Dave,
    
    	You've been logging too many hours behind the snow blower and not
    	enough in the 210!
    
    	Of course I'm in the same situation, I've spent more time digging 
    	the plane out of the snow than I have flying it.
    
    	Ken

>> Great!  That'll put all the snow up against my house
>
>	I've heard many people who believe that putting the snow against
>	the house is a *good* thing.  It provides extra insulation (ie.
>	it will help protect your house against cold winds, etc, just
>	like snow does for plants, etc).


Well, let me put it another way...


Great!  That'll pile all the snow up against my storm door!

    	About the only thing I try to do is set up a track in which I can
    keep the blower moving in a forward direction as much as possible (i.e.
    minimize back and forth movements). I start in the middle of my driveway 
    blowing snow towards the outer edges and work outward from there.
    
    	I try to do the same sort of thing when I mow my lawn too. The
    thought being that the more time spent moving forward, the less time it
    takes to finish.
    
    	Ray