Conference 7.286::home_work

    I recently bought a house with a little over an acre of land to
    mow.  Deciding that I was to need a lawnmower pretty soon, I went
    down to the local Sears store to size up lawnmowers.  I spoke with
    the salesman there who seemed to think that for the size plot that
    I had a riding tractor would be best since it would be easier 
    (which I can see would be true) and mowing a plot of land that 
    size would ruin the push mower since the engine would be overworked.
    
    Since I have zero experience with lawns and mowing and knowing
    that Sears salesmen work on a commission, I was wondering if
    anyone out there has experience with mowing about an acre of
    land and what they use to do it.  Also recommendations on types
    and brands of lawnmowers (push or riding) would be very welcome.
    
    Steven

  Gravely, John Deere, and Kubota are all good names.  You might also consider
  a self-propelled (non-riding) mower.  Unless you are bound and determined
  to get a new machine, you should contact lots of dealers and tell them that
  you're in the market for a used machine (once you've decided on the 
  type you need, of course).  This is the time of year that people trade 
  their machines for bigger ones and there are bargains to be found.

  JP

    	I will tell you my experience with a lawn that is just under
    an acre. When I first moved in, I had a push mower. I thought, wow
     I'm going to get a lot of exercise and fresh air. Well, I was right.
    It took me the better part of 6 hours to cut the grass. This includes
    stopping to gas up 4 times, lemonade breaks and emptying the grass
    catcher umteen hundred times. I did this 4 times and decided that
    there has to be a better way. I bought a lawn tractor. Best move
    I ever made. Now it takes just over 2 hours to cut it and about
    1/2 hour to run the lawn sweeper behind the tractor to pick up the
    clippings. I use the tractor to haul wood, move dirt, work the garden,
    and other small uses. I would advise that if you buy one. Get one
    with enough power to run a snow blower and pull a cart. If your
    yard is as big as mine which it sounds, a small lawn tractor can
    be a very valuable aid.
    					Good Luck
    

    When I was a teenager, I would cut two acres of my parents property
    in five hours flat. There where lots of hills, trees, etc. to make
    it worse. That is a lot of time if you have to cut it once a week.
    
    We had a Toro push-mower back then and it lasted about seven years.
    My parents then bought a small tractor, I am not sure but maybe
    it took off about 1.5 hrs off that time. But, you still had to get
    the push-mower out to do the parts that couldn't be done with the
    lawn tractor.
    
    The tractor was very useful around the yard, hauling things, as
    a snowblower etc., but they are not cheap. My Dad's Allis-Chambers
    is still running after 20+ years, so a good one can be a good investment.

    Except for mechanic's hand tools, I stay away from SEARS. Only
    because it always seems to me that they sell a downgraded version of
    someone else's brand. 
    

    Steve

    My father has 1 acre to mow.  In 1967 he bought a John Deere garden
    tractor (110).  It is still used every week in the summer for mowing
    and in the winter plowsthe driveway.  I have 1/2 an acre and have
    worn out 2 walk behinds so far.  Last year a bought a JD 210. I
    don't expect to buy another.
    

    Try a Ford. They make nice tractors of all sizes for all kinds of
    jobs. I own a 16 h.p. and use it year round for many jobs. If you
    need service or spare parts or whatever, you have a good selection
    of dealers to buy from. They also have a nice line of options you
    can purchase.
    				Mike

    I'd definitely suggest a tractor. (I'd further suggest a Gravely,
    but then you need to do some shopping.) My experiences have included
    mowing an acres for my dad as a kid, and for myself at two of my
    three homes. In each case, a walking mower was used initially but
    the tractor beat it hands down. The savings in time alone is worth
    it, but the additional utilitarianess of the tractor and the fact
    that it adds enjoyment to the job really makes it worthwhile.
    
    -Jack
    

    I have a Toro 8-32 (8hp, 32" cut) with which I mow nearly an acre
    in about 4 hrs. It would be faster with a 36" blade, though. I am
    very happy with it. It cost me almost $1000 1-1/2 years ago and
    the price included the grass catcher. If you prefer, you could buy
    a bagger or a mulcher. The Toro mowers were rated the best by Consumer 
    Report (they think they know everything) a few years ago. Their
    larger riding mowers have front engines which allows the use of
    other attachments such as a plow. Bottom line, it's given me very
    good service. The only thing I have done is clean it before storing
    it and giving it a tune up before the mowing season starts.

Just a few comments as I bought a lawn tractor last year.

There are 3 categories:

	o	riding mower
	o	lawn tractor
	o	garden tractor

Riding mowers are just that.  You can ride on them and that's all they do.
The mower is an integral part of the unit.  You could put a pull cart on it
if you want to.  Life time = unknown

Lawn tractors are machines that allow you to attach a mower deck, snow plow,
etc.  The one thing you can't attach is a roto-tiller since you need a power
take-off in the rear.  Life time = 10+ years (I've been told)

Garden tractors are very heavy duty and usually last well over 30 years!  They
support all the same devices a lawn tractor supports and has a power take-off 
for roto-tillers and anything else that attaches in the rear and may need power.

Price is key.

	I don't know about riding mowers.

	Lawn tractors seem to run around 2K-3K for a name brand

	Garden tractors are in the 3.5K and up range.  Big Bucks, but as previos
	note mentioned, this is a lifetime (more or less) investment.

I couldn't see the big bucks and opted for a lawn tractor.  So far I'm quite
happy.

btw - as for mowing, every device I've looked at have specs on Hours/Acre!  Most
	are rated in the 45 minute range.

-mark

    Our lawn is just under an acre, with a lot of hills and not many
    trees.  For the first 3 years, I mowed with a push rotary mower.
    It'd take over 5 hours, and I didn't even catch the clippings!
    Plus, when done, I'd be exhausted.  Last year, I went out in search
    of something to cut the lawn for me, while I just sat, steered,
    and smiled.  My prerequisites were the ability to mow, and the
    ability to pull a trailer and sweeper - snowblower was not an issue.
    
    Because of the hills, the category of riding mower (motor in the
    back) was out - not really stable going up a hill.  And I wasn't
    interested in the large garden tractors.  So my market was for
    a simple lawn tractor.  I hit the normal Sears and Wards sales.
    I then went to some tractor dealerships, and saw the name brands.
    
    What I found was that for something with 10-12 HP, a 36-38" deck
    would run anywhere from $1100 to $1500 - and if you were talking
    the name brands, prices start at $2000 and up quickly!  The quality
    of the name brands was obviously better than the Sears/Wards type,
    but was it worth doubling the price?  Being stubborn, I thought
    it wasn't, and concentrated on Sears and Wards.  Then, one day,
    I dropped into the local True Value hardware Store (Benson's in
    Merrimack, NH in my case).  There, they had what they called a
    "Lawn Chief", with an 11HP Briggs and Stratton industrial grade
    motor, a 36" deck, and a transmission with 12 forward and 6 reverse
    speeds - and the price was (and still is today) $999.  I was very
    skeptical in buying an off-brand, so balked for a while.  I then
    checked out the manufacturers of all of these brands, and found
    that they were all basically made by 2 builders - either Murray
    or AMF.  Wards and True Value were Murray, Sears were AMF.  I
    went to look at each tractor, and found the construction of the
    Wards and the True Value to be better than the Sears - and the
    fact that the local hardware store did warranty work and had
    free delivery, I went with the Lawn Chief.  
    
    I used it all last summer, and not a lick of trouble.  I put
    it in the shed last fall, and pulled it out a couple of weeks
    ago - turned the starter key and it fired right up!!!!!!!!
    It handles the hills nicely, and does a nice, clean cut.  It
    gets my recommendation - given you're looking for something
    functional and inexpensive.
    
    It's up to you - bigger bucks for a "volvo" type of tractor, smaller
    bucks for a "chevy" type of tractor - given the right TLC, both
    would last for a long time.
    
    Andy
    

    I must second the motion to stay away from Sears.  Myself and my
    neighborhood own Sears.  I never expected to see more of the repairman
    than my wife and kids, but he's like one of the family.  My 11 h.p.
    tractor is 4 years old.  It breaks down each winter about a week
    after I put on the snowblower.  This year the transmission died
    during the first snowstorm.  Six weeks and as many snowstorms later
    the parts arrived.  I called the service department regularly and
    noted that if Digital provided the same level of service to its
    customers, we'd be chapter 11, by now.
    
    The service department called last week asking me to renew my service
    contract.  I retold my story and they claimed that their service
    department house was cleaned and the regional director had been
    fired.  I suggested they rebate me for last year's contract.  They
    said no to me and I said no to them.
    
    While my tractor was laid up throughout the winter, a neighbor loaned
    me his WHEELHORSE tractor.  I was VERY IMPRESSED WITH WHEELHORSE.
    I have a 400 foot driveway and the tractor cleared the snow in no
    time.  That tractor consistently cleaned 3 driveways this winter
    and it's about 10 years old, I think.
    
    There is a WHEELHORSE dealer in Tyngsboro about a mile or two from
    the bridge.  One more tractor worth considering.
    
    Tom
    

    Once you get an idea what you want, you might try checking out the
    Hammar Hardware store in Nashua; they have a lawn/tractor repair
    center in a little garage on the far side of the parking lot where
    they service and sell used lawn mowers, garden tractors, and such.
    
    My recommendation would be Clinton -- when I was growing up, I could
    finish our acre and a half of lawn in about 3 hours with our old
    Clinton. My parents are still mowing the same lawn
    with the same lawn mower, but I don't know if Clinton's even in
    business any more. . . . I haven't seen one in years.
    
    --bonnie
    
    

    I bought a Gilsson 8 horse rider mower last year and I love it.
    I have just over 1 acre to mow and it takes me about 2 hours. I
    also got a grass catcher which is nice to have. Make sure that the
    engine is big enough to do the job you want. I found that 8 horses
    is about the minimum unless your lawn is completely flat. Also look
    for an industrial grade engine. Gilsson come standard with an
    industrail engine and with Toro you can buy it as an option. They
    aren't that much more and they last alot longer. Anothrt nice feature
    is electric start. Now my wife can't claim that she can't start
    the mower. I payed $1300 with the grass catcher last May.
    
    I also vote for staying away from Sears. I have a friend that had
    lots of problems with a Sears push mower.
    
    Mark

    RE: .12
    
    	I try to stay away from Hammar.  They usually ask top dollar
    	for the stuff they sell.  Be it hardware supplies or mowers
    	and tractors.
    
    	Call around, I'm sure you can find a better deal than Hammar.
    
    - Mark

    re: Hammar
    
    Yes, it is a little bit expensive.  They also will take 10% off
    (don't know about big-ticket items like tractors though -- I've
    never bought more than a $100 item there) if you use cash.
    There are no signs indicating this -- I heard it from a friend,
    tried it, and it worked.
    
    			George

    I have a question that is somewhat related, so I'll ask it here.
    
    I recently heard of a push lawnmower that is convertible to a
    snowblower.  I believe it's made by Ariens.  I guess the basic frame
    and engine work for both tasks, but you can remove the lawnmower
    section (whatever that is comprised of) and replace it with a
    snowblower part.  Sounds like a neat idea, not having two
    machines taking up space in the garage.  But I wonder if the machine
    handles either function very well or is it a compromise.  Anybody
    own one of these or have any experiences to share?    
    
    

    We had a house on 1.24 acres (mostly wooded).  Dan came home one
    night, started mowing with our push mower.  Neighbor came home
    about 1/2 hour later and started mowing.  Neighbor finished his
    entire lawn and went inside.  Dan had completed about 1/8 of our
    yard.
    
    Dan decided he wanted a rider mower.

    I just bought a Wheelhorse, and love it.  
    
    I hate mowing the lawn and it would take me about 4 days to move
    my 3/4 acre lawn.  If I could get a friend to do it it would take
    him 5-6 hours.
    
    I also had the problem of finding someone to plow me out in the
    winter.
    
    After saving my pennies for a few years, I now have a tractor that
    will not only let me mow my lawn in less time (and maybe enjoy the
    time that I'm doing it), but have a snow blower for the winter.
    My dad gave me a trailer to pull behind the tractor and I have been
    out in the yard for the last two nice weekends cleaning up old leaves
    and trimmings from my pruned trees.
    
    The Wheelhorse is fairly expensive, but I expect it to last as least
    my lifetime with care.
    
    I purchased it from Northeast Tractor on Route 140 in Sterling,
    just past the 190 exit on the Sterling side of the West Boylston
    line.  Gerry Kristoff is the owner.

    I think there's a note about tractors and mowers in the CONSUMER
    conference, too.
    
    If you've got a flat lawn, a riding mower would probably be okay.
    If you've got rough uneven ground and hills, a tractor is probably
    a better bet.
    
    I've got an International Harvester Cub Cadet 1250.  IH is a great believer
    in cast iron and steel.  I don't know how you'd ever break it. 
    Other good ones are John Deere, Ariens, Graveley.  (These are the
    "lawn/garden tractor" class.)  Also others, I'm sure.
    
    I've looked at Wheelhorse, and I wasn't all that impressed.  I'm dubious
    about their belt drive, and a neighbor bought one only to have the
    front wheel fall off the first time out. But some people have praised 
    them here, so take your choice.  
    I'm also not impressed by Sears, but nobody else seems to be either
    so there is no argument there.
    
    John Deere, IH, Ariens, Graveley, are all $$$, but they will last
    (almost) forever.  Spread the cost out over 20 or 30 years and it's
    not so bad.
    
    I would get a hydrostatic drive; more money, but a great convenience
    over gears.  

    re: prices and places: 
    
    Will those of you who objected to prices at Hammar in Nashua please
    tell me where in Nashua  I can get better prices and reasonable
    help/advice? When we bought our mower and other household equipment
    (when we moved into our house a couple of years ago), they had both the
    best prices we could find easily as newcomers in town and the most
    helpful personnel.  If there's someplace better, I'd like to know
    about it. 
    
    --bonnie
     
    

    I appreciate hearing everyones experience with lawn mowers/garden
    tractors.  I looked into some of the tractors recommended in the
    replies and they definitely are big bucks.  Even a rebuilt one
    is expensive.  Seeing as I just purchased the house I live in and
    am fairly low on funds I may just get a used push mower for this
    year and save my pennies until next year and get a good tractor.
    
    Anyone in the Worcester area with a lawn mover they want to
    get rid of???
    
    Steve
    

This may be stating the obvious but if you're going with the push type at 
least get the self-propelled.  I used to mow a large area with one that wasn't
and you'd be amazed how heavy they can get when the catcher bag starts to fill
up.  Especially when you're into your third hour.

George			

    While looking at tractors look at Honda.  After a pretty thorough
    search last year we bought their 13HP tractor, then the model HT3813.
    
    We haven't regretted the purchase one bit!  It too was expensive
    ($2800 with bagger, which I only use to pick up leaves -- I didn't
    realize when I bought the tractor that the mower in a tractor fans
    the grass out much more so than a walk behind.  The moral here is
    that unless you are going to use the bagger as a virtual lawn sweeper,
    you don't need it, unless of course you let the grass get to be
    a foot long before cutting!)
    
    Honda is an excellent design.  Their 13 horse is a 2-cylinder water
    cooled engine with a "semi-automatic" transmission.  No clutch,
    and no hydraulics either.  You only put your foot on the brake when
    shifting into gear from neutral, then all other shifting is the
    same as with a hydrostatic drive.
    
    All the controls are very well laid out, and the service points
    are *very* logically located.  I also used this tractor last year
    (with a Sears hauling cart to haul and distribute 20+ yds of bark
    mulch on a steep hill, and it performed flawlessly -- for real work
    I believe that the water-cooled engine is very valuable.
    
    I compared this tractor to all others I knew of in the price/performace
    category, and recomend it unconditionlly!
    
    The dealers I know of in this area are:
    
    	New England Honda, and John Deere in Windham N.H.
	Moscarello Power Equipment in Acton (right on the Maynard line),
        Hammer hardware in Nashua.

    Re .23  I think you forgot to mention how quiet the Honda is.  I
    had a demo and could not believe it.  I just needed the JD for the
    heavier gearbox for plowing, etc.  For mowing and towing I would
    have bought the Honda. 
    

    Mowing Your Way to Fitness: Copied from -> Dodge adventurer - Spring 1987

    They say if you wait long enough, things DO go full circle. For
    years, man has strived to let automation make life easier. But since
    the fitness rage emerged, more and more people are finding that
    a little work can be healthier in the long run.
      From this trend has sprung a new offbeat invention: a lawn mower
    that allows you to cut the lawn and burn up calories.
      The cycle mower has three gears which adjust for varying degrees
    of pedal resistance and hill incline.  Determined exercise addicts
    can cut up to 5,600 square feet of grass in an hour!
      The cost is a mere $399.50, a small price to pay for trimming away
    excess weight and grass at the same time.  And that's not to mention
    the peace and quiet your neighbors will appreciate when they're
    not awakened by the growling noise of a power mower.
      For further information, call the Hammacher Schlemmer Company
    at 1-800-233-4800.
    
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    They will send you some literature if you call. I am waiting for
    mine to arrive.

    
    
    Re: .3 That Chalmers as in ALLIS/CHALMERS
    
    RE: all    Yet another vote for Honda mowers.

re .25
>      The cost is a mere $399.50, a small price to pay for trimming away
>    excess weight and grass at the same time.  And that's not to mention
>    the peace and quiet your neighbors will appreciate when they're
>    not awakened by the growling noise of a power mower.
>      For further information, call the Hammacher Schlemmer Company
>    at 1-800-233-4800.

And for about $60, you can get a plain old push mower like my grandad used to 
push.  It probably burns the same number of calories.  The disadvantage is 
that you have to either mow your lawn at night or let your neighbors think you 
can't afford Hammacher Schlemmer...

						     
							- JP

    You should follow the angle of the original sharpening job.
    The angle if too steep will dull very fast and if too shallow
    will tend to wack the tops off leaving brown tips.
    
    -j
    

    No, the angle isn't trivial, it's important.  But what the recommended
    angle is I have no idea.  I do as in .1; go by the angle of the
    original sharpening job.

    
    Yes follow the original angle unless you regrind the surface and
    start over. I have a sharpening instruction for a buck knife which
    states 30 degrees. The angle really depends on the tool and purpose.
    A small angle will be very sharp but will dull quickly. A large
    angle takes more force for cutting action but the edge will last
    longer.

    You need to be sure to remove the same amount of material on each
    side of the blade. Otherwise the blade will be out of balance
    and could cause damage(bent shaft) to the mower.
    If it is so far gone that you can't follow the old angle
    you are better off to buy a new blade $10-15 or have a 
    lawn mower service center do it for you. They have the equipment
    to rebalance the blade. 
    
    
    -j
    

    Why not measure it ?  If you have a protractor and your blade still
    has the manufacturer's angle ground in, it would be a simple matter
    to measure it.
    
    I've read and heard that you shouldn't let your mower blade get
    dull, because it shreds the grass instead of cutting it cleanly and
    that can open your grass up to disease.  They say you can look closely
    at the freshly cut blades of grass and tell quickly if your blade
    is sharp enough.  

    JPM

    
    	Thanks for all the response... mabey I should have pointed
    	out that the blades are for a 48" lawn tractor mower, and
    	have been sharpened about 45 times since they were new in 
    	1969... yes I could try to replace them, but they are still
    	in good condition, and are well balanced. The angle on them
    	now looks to me to be about 45 degrees, and I suspect it may
    	be too steep. Has anyone seen any jigs for bench grinders
    	which keep a constant angle while you move the blade back and
    	forth?
    
    /Kevin

I recently bought a house on 5 acres covered with weeds 3-5 feet tall. 
After purchasing a gas powered weed eater with a saw blade attachment, I
set out to knock things down to size.  I realized there was a lot of grass
underneath.  I thought GREAT!  The place is going to really look better.  I
soon realized how fast grass/weeds can grow back!  Well, I've been maintaining
things with my 4HP push mower up to now.  Problem is, it takes about a week to
mow (everyday after work and a good weekend).  During the growing season things
need mowed after about, yea you got it, a week!  Even if I could physically keep
this up (which I can't) there has got to be more to life than mowing.

So now I'm looking into alternatives.  Since I want to turn things into
a pasture for my horses (after the fencing is up), a tractor with a mowing
attachment would be the best choice.  Problem is new ones are very expensive
and they would have problems getting into tight places I have.  So here's my 
plan...  Buy a new ride-on lawn mower and look for a used tractor to fix 
up.  The ride-on would work great for most of the mowing and the tractor 
could be used for other chores around the place.

Before spending money on the ride-on I'm trying to resolve a few questions:

  o What brand is best?  Sears is the cheapest, but I have doubts about
    the quality.  John Deere's has a good reputation but cost more.  Any 
    suggestions?

  o What horse power should I get?  The property does have some grades to
    part of it, but nothing real steep.

  o John Deere ride-on's only have 1 cylinder.  This seemed strange to me
    at first - any comments?

  o I've heard about a manure spreader that you can pull behind a rid-on
    mower - anyone have experience with one?

  o Is a ride-on mower even good enough to mow about 3 acres?  Most of the
    ads claim about 1 hour per acre - Is this realistic?

Thanks,

Jeff

    Look at Simplicity, Arien's...  lot of descent units out there!
    BTW, why don't you buy a used one with a blown motor (dirt cheap)
    and purchase a new engine through Northern Hydraulics or Small Engine
    City. $300-$700 depending on the size. Personally, I like a small
    tractor with a Briggs 8Hp engine. This has ample power to pull any
    hill, power a 36"mower and actually power a single stage snowblower
    attachment. The beauty of this is, when the engine wears out after
    10 years or so, the replacement engine is under $300.00 (currently)!
    If you find that hard to believe, come by and check out my yard
    and tractor, (very steep yard and driveway). 
    

    Look at the drive system.  The cheapest ones are Belt Clutch with
    belt drives or use some sort of disk.  The more expensive ones have
    Mechanical clutch or hydrostatic (automatic) gear drives.
                                                            
    I owned a Yard-Man, which is made by MTD which you'll find a lot
    of the tractors are such as Sears, and Gilson.  My Yard-Man was
    the belt clutch with a spinning disk drive.  In order for me to
    get the thing to move while starting on a hill I had to use my hand
    to pull back the clutch pedal because the belts would slip.

    RE:2   Your machine wasn't adjusted properly or the belt was stretched.
    I find that belt drive works well and is the most simple arrangement.
    I would stall the engine on mine before the belt slips.
    
    Ross

    I looked at Toro, Honda, Deere, and Snapper and bought an 8-hp
    26" electric start Snapper two months ago.  
    
    Price:  Honda $2295, Deere $2195, Toro $1500, Snapper $1400.
    Performance:  Consumer Reports is good fpr some things, if you
    take their recommendations with a grain of salt.  They rated
    Toro best; I didn'y like the Toro's construction, quality of
    workmanship, or overall clumsiness (your mileage may differ).
    For three acres of grass, you will want the largest mower
    deck you can get that will accommodate the irregularities in
    your lawn. 
    
    I have only a one-acre lawn, a slight slope, relatively flat.
    Having offered my experiences and rationale, I suggest your
    choice of equipment is inappropriate.  If I were in your
    position, I would look for a large lawn tractor - 11 or 16 hp -
    that can swing a big 42-inch mower deck and handle a variety
    of attachments.  Otherwise, you're going to become a slave   
    to property maintenance.
    
    pbm
    

    I'd go for the lawn tractor, and skip the riding mower.  The riding
    mowers weren't really built for what you want to do, and you'll
    destroy it if you cut a majority of your grass with it.
    
    My father (13 Acres) has a "Wheel Horse" tractor with a 10Hp 
    (I think Briggs) engine on it.  He's also had Bolens (Techemse)
    and Alis-Chalmers (Briggs)  All in all, the Briggs engines are the
    most reliable, but the Techemse isn't all that bad.  He bought the
    A-C and the Bolens used and got decent deals on them.  The A-C was
    $300.00 (this was 6 years ago) and lasted for damned near 4 years
    before we had to short block the engine (at a cost of about $100)
    
    The bolens he bought for $800 and it included a 52" cut deck (yes,
    52")  It couldn't turn near as fast as the A-C, but it cut grass
    like crazy.
    
    Last year, he traded both the A-C and the Bolens in for a Wheel
    Horse.  It's a nice machine, works very well and he's had no problems
    with it.
    
    One extra note.  If you're planning on cutting hills or doing any
    winter plowing, get a set of HEAVY wheel weights and a set of good
    chains.  As it turns out, when mowing hills, unless the ground is
    commpletely dry, you'll slide without chains.  (they don' tdo any
    damage)
    
    
    Good luck
    
    -bill

    Ditto on .5, skip the riding mower, go for the lawn tractor.  With
    the size lawn you are talking about and the things you're talking
    about doing, I don't believe you'd be satisfied with a riding mower
    and would be back looking for something else in a year or two, or
    "getting by" and always wishing you had something bigger.  Do it
    right, the first time.  I'd go with 14-16hp, hydrostatic drive.
    Hydrostatic drive is GREAT.  Also $$$, but worth it.  Really good
    tractors are $$$, but worth it.  If you buy one and take any kind
    of care of it at all, it will outlast you, probably.  Spread $4000
    (or whatever they cost these days) over 30 years and it doesn't look 
    so bad.  I'd suggest John Deere, Ariens, or International Harverster.
    John Deere or Ariens would be my first choices; the small IH tractors 
    are good (I've got one) but service isn't as easy to find.  If you
    have a good IH dealer near you though, take a look at them.
    
    Personally, I'm not particularly impressed by Wheel Horse, but others
    think they are pretty good so take your choice.

    Rereading your original note:
    
    A single-cylinder engine is no problem.  It will work fine.
    
    You would probably be happy with a 12 hp tractor; that's what I've
    got, and for mowing lawns it's plenty, up or down hill, weeds, brush,
    small trees....  You might want more if you plan to blow snow or
    do rototilling or other heavy-duty stuff like that, but for mowing
    lawns 12 hp is plenty.  My 12 hp tractor will climb any hill it can get
    traction on, and not slow down.
    
    An acre an hour sounds quite do-able; I've got a 38" mower deck
    and a VERY irregular 2 acres to mow, and I can do that in just about
    two hours if I skip the fancy trimming.  If you had lots of open
    areas and straight runs, you could probably do 3 acres in 2 hours 
    on a good tractor.
    
    My recommendation for hydrostatic drive and a "real" tractor (John
    Deere, Ariens, IH) remains in effect.
    

When I first said I was thinking of a ride-on mower I was thinking in the 
12-16HP range with about a 38" deck.  I thought this was simply the bigger 
class of ride-on; but reading the replies and looking back at the literature 
there seems to be 3 classes of things:

1) Ride-on mower.  Less than 10HP and minimal attachments you can pull.
2) Lawn tractor. 12 -> 18HP lots of things you can pull but most attachments
   require there own motor (i.e. No rear PTO).
3) Real tractor. 18HP and up.  Has a rear PTO for powering attachments and
   has the ability to have a hydraulic scoop in the front.  Seems that a
   lot of the "small" ones offer 4-wheel drive now (any ideas if this is
   needed or is it just a "fad").

Does this all seem correct?  When I first talked about a ride-on I guess
I should of been calling it a lawn tractor.

Is there anything else that is different between a ride-on mower and a lawn 
tractor?

Jeff
        

    I'd pretty much agree with your categories.  In addition to
    significantly less power and few/no attachments, ride-on 
    mowers typically have fairly primitive transmission/drive 
    arrangements compared to the tractors.  The tractors have
    a real driveshaft, transmission, and differential; typical
    ride-on mowers I've seen usually have a rear-mounted engine 
    with some sort of friction drive.
    

    I added "tractors" to the title of this note to widen the scope
    of the subject and attract a broader audience.

    Jeff

    Re .8
    
    AgrEed; as I suggested earlier, you are definitely in the market
    for a large lawn tractor; a small farm trActor would be overkill,
    a riding mower would be too small to do even the mowing adequately.
    
    Consider the value you place on your spare time, and don't go for
    the minimum.
    
    I can also second the rdcommendation for an 11 - 16 hp tractor with
    hydrostatic drive; after all, this is 1987.  If you intend to blow
    snow, 16 hp is the minimum you should attempt this with.  Shine
    up rhe ol' MasterCard and ovit your teet`.
    
    pbm
    

    I just bought a Kubota 16 HP Diesel 4WD.  Looking forward to those
    little grassies sticking their heads up now!  They must have found
    out cause they stopped growing...
    I decided on this tractor vs other mowing methods because of the
    greater flexibility for implements and variety of jobs around the
    place that I can now handle without calling in outside help.
    For those attachments you use infrequently you can rent when needed.
    My property is about 5 acres fields and 5 acres woods.
    Tom
    

    I disagree with the categories listed. I have an older 8hp Simplicity
    (garden tractor), that according to the manuals had "many" attachments
    available. (I have the snowblower and rotary mower). It also has
    a PTO of sorts. (pulley). My father has a 14hp Ford, hydro. drive
    that has a drive shaft PTO. I think my Simplicity throws snow better
    than his big tractor. He also has a 2 stage blower. My little tractor
    also mows just as well. (Although, his deck is a foot wider).
    Don't get hung up on the size of the tractor, just buy a quality
    unit. 

    
    You may also consider those 4wheel drive bikes. One of the Honda
    modles has a attachment for a pull type mower with a 4 foot cut.
    
    You can also put a plow or blower on these for the winter.
    
    And then just remove all the attachments no matter what time of
    year and have fun. Not to many people I know take their lawn tractors
    out for a spin around the yard.

    re.13
    
    Center mount mower.  There is a center PTO and a rear.
    Center mower cuts more evenly because the wheels flatten grass 
    before the rear mount gets to cut it, and then springs up after
    you pass by---actually hours after you pass by.
    Also your turn radius is better with center mount.  Think of trying
    to turn sharply pulling a trailer.
    For the fanatic, Kubota makes a front mount mower and tractor that
    cuts real close to trees, buildings, etc...and turns(pivots) on
    a dime.  Price is about 12K.
    T
    

    This spring after I got rid of my Yard-man I ended up buying a
    Cub-Cadet 18 hp Kohler engine with the Hydrostatic all gear drive,
    no belts, for $3500.  Probably more tractor I'll ever need.  One
    thing CC offered that I liked was the option of Turf tires or
    Agriculture tires.  

    If your going to have horses - get someting you can put a bucket
    on! It save a lot of work when cleaning out and leveling the manure
    pile!
    
    /tb/
    

    Everyone has agreed forget the Riding mower.  From what your saying
    I think that you would want a minimum of 12 hp.  I would recommend
    hyrostatic drive and some kind of hydro lift. This is convinent if
    your going to be using a snow blower. PTO is also very handy if you
    plan on using a tiller. Think about the cuttings if you want some
    sort of bagging device then you can only use one blade which limits
    you to a thirty inch deck. With 2 or more blades you will probably
    want to use a sweeper.  Get a good one, the cheap lightweight ones
    will bounce around. The brands that I would look at are the big name
    brands John Deere, Cub Cadet, Ariens, Bolens, Kubota, and Case which 
    is now Ingersoll. These will last longer I would stay away from the Sears
    and True Value types if you plan on keeping the tractor for more
    than 5 years.
    
    Go to the various dealers in your area.  Compare prices and test
    drive the model you think you want to buy. Also check out if there
    are tractors available from trade in's.  I just bought a used Case
    12hp with the hydrostatic drive and the hydra lift.  The model I
    bought cost me about half the price of a new model.  I got a 30
    day warrenty so when the mower deck had to be rebuilt within the
    first 30 days...
    
    Good luck and have fun
    
    Robin
    hydra lift.  It has a 42 inch deck.   

    	You didn't say where abouts you were located, but, for all of
    you in New England interested in farm type equipment check out the
    BIG E in West Springfield, Mass. Went to the fair yesturday and
    they have plenty of equipment on exhibit.
    	Fair runs through this weekend.
    
    					...Dave

RE:-1

I live in Western Washington so it would be a ways for me to go!
    
Reading these replies and thinking about all the things I'd like to do
around the place I think I've just about decided on what I'll get.
I think I'll skip the ride-on mower/lawn tractor and go for a very compact 
diesel tractor with PTO and front scoop.  I'll add on a tow mower for doing 
99% of the mowing and just use my current power mower for touching up 
around places even a small tractor can't reach.

I've got it down to 3 brands:

  John Deere - Obviously good quality but also the most expensive.

  Massey Ferguson (sp?) - MF-10 tractor.  14HP 3cyl. diesel.  Seems like
               very good quality and just a little cheaper than JD.

  Kubota - Not fully checked into these yet.  Everyone has good things to
               say about them and I think they are cheaper than MF.  There
               is also a dealer close by I'll check on this weekend.

One thing I can't decide on is if the 4x4 versions (they all offer it) are
worth the extra bucks.  We don't get a lot of snow here so I won't need
to do snow removal.  We do get a lot of rain and things could get slippery.
                                                                      
This class of tractor is about 3 times the cost of the lawn tractor but
20 years from now that will be long forgotten...(hopefully!)

    RE:-21
    
    On my Cub Cadet 18hp I had a front bucket.  I wouldn't recommend
    getting a small tractor with a bucket without 4WD.  My CC was only
    2WD with Agricultur tires.  On flat surfaces it wasn't to bad, but
    I could't back up a hill even with the bucket empty, the wieght
    distribution is all on the front wheels.

    not entirely relevant, but didn't want to waste a note!
    
    I'm looking for info on self-propelled mowers.  Couldn't find anything
    in the keywords.  Anyone seen anything?
    
    tnx,
    
    Chris

    re: .23
    
    See BEING::CONSUMER, note 99 for lawnmower information.
    
    Marc

    Couldn't find anything here on lawnmowers, so here goes....
    
    Currently considering a push-type, rear bagger mower and would like
    a good size bag.  Not sure if I will need a self-propelled model.
    I have about a half acre to cut...takes about one to one and a quarter
    hours to cut today with traditional push mower and I enjoy the excercise.
                                          
    Any recommendations on brand and type?

    I have a Snapper 3.5hp side discharge, self-propelled, 21 inch cut
    that is great.  I just bought it this Spring and I think I paid
    about 390.00 on sale.  I have had good luck with Snapper products
    and own a snowblower as well.  The lawnmover has worked well and
    even picks up the leaves which are coming down daily.  I would buy
    another one if the case arise.  I bought my in Stow, MA.

    
    I currently have a new Craftsman (engine by Tecumsah). It replaced
    my old Crsftsman (15 years old same engine). It works great. I got
    it on sale for $225. It has a 21" cut and 3.5hp engine. I have about
    an acre to cut which takes me about 1 1/2 hours. I looked at the
    Honda's and Toro's. Both of these are very durable, but also very
    expensive. The comperable Honda went for nearly $400 and the comperable
    Toro went for $350 (on sale). I found that the Tecumsah engines
    are very durable.
    
    Mike
    

        I have a 21" Craftsman (about 8 years old) side bagger.  I bought
    it to cut a 5000 sqft lot when I had rental property.  I now have
    about 25000 sqft under cultivation and it takes me about 2 hours
    to mow.  My biggest complaint is the side bagger.  When it gets
    full, and I'm really cooking across the range, I don't like to waste
    time to empty it.  The result is one side gets much heavier leading
    to; 1) steering problems (not too significant) 2) one side cutting
    deeper than the other (looks like sh*t), 3) poor maneuverability on 
    steep hills.  I am seriously considering getting a larger rear bagger 
    soon (still push variety).  My major concern with a rear bagger
    is that I have long legs and I will spend two hours kicking the stupid
    bag.  Can any of you tall rear bagger owners tell me if that is
    a serious problem.
    
    As far as my craftsman goes, it still goes.  I clean the filter and 
    change the oil each spring.  It sat for a few years after I got 
    married and before I could afford a proper castle for the princess.  
    It still starts on the first pull so I have no room for complaints 
    there.
    
    Stan

    I have a Craftsman rear bagger and am 6'3" and don't recall any
    bag-kicking problem (sounds like a straight-man's line, huh?  I
    won't touch it ...).
    
    I haven't had a single problem with it except that I need a new
    bag (mine is about 8 years old) and Sears has changed the way they
    hook the bags to the mowers.  I'd go with Craftsman again and I'd
    be sure to purchase at least one extra 'bag' at time of purchase.
    
    Pete

    Just to further confuse your selection, I bought a Toro
    rear bagger/mulcher this spring and am very happy. It's
    a 21" wide cut and is the u_push_it variety. I think I
    paid around $320. (it was on sale) and bought it from
    Ted's in Marlboro. I may have paid a bit more to get a
    Toro, but I was also thinking about any potential service
    it may need and Ted's has an excellent reputation for 
    service. I would avoid a side bagger for the same comments
    previously mentioned. I would highly recommend that you
    stay away from department stores as the service and parts
    just won't be the same as with someone who specializes in
    mowers. Good luck.
    

    BEING::CONSUMER note 99.* has an extensive discussion of lawnmowers.
    I suggest that this discussion be continued there.
    
    Marc, happy_Honda_lawnmower_owner

     Spend the money and buy a Snapper, I've had mine for 2 yrs and
     haven't regretted spending the money for it and I'm known for
     being "thrifty". the Snappers has 6 speeds and it really sucks
     up the leaves and pine needles, the 3.5hp will cost about $399,
     but its money well spent. depending where you live, there's a 
     dealer in Nashua where I bought mine, I thinks its called
     Whites, or try P/F equipment on Rt119 in Littleton, its right next
     the the movie theater.
    
    
    Royce

    Consumer Report said that the Snapper 3.5 hp mower experienced
    bad vibration while its being used. Has any of you Snapper owner
    felt the vibration ? I'm thinking of buying the Snapper next spring.

    
    
    	My Sanppers engine blew up after 3 years. I now own a real nice
    Honda !
    
    	-Steve-
    

                I'm the happy owner of a rear bagger TORO for 10 years
        now. I just had it overhauled this spring (I should take better
        care of it) for about $125 and the only other expense (other
        than the normal maintainence was the replacement of the front
        drive axle about 5 years ago (I hit too many rocks and fence
        posts, it bent!). I would buy another TORO if the engine
        (they're using a new one) proves reliable. The local TORO dealer
        says they are, and he doesn't tend to carry stuff that he has to
        fix too often!
                
                Also, I'm 6'4 and don't have any trouble kicking the bag
        with it in the rear. They make the handle longer for a rear
        bagger.
                
                /s/     Bob

    I have had a Honda for two years and it works great. It has a 21"
    cut, rear bag, and 4 hp motor. The rear bag is big and a plus over
    the smaller side discharge versions. It even works great picking
    up leaves because of its high suction. Wouldn't buy anything else.
             Ed
     

    havn't bought a lawnmower lately... and probably won't fora while...
    but my dad bought a Jacobson 21 inch mower side bagger 18 years
    ago, and the thing still runs like a champ... never done anything
    but change the oil, clean the filter, and change the spark plug
    occasionally....  the damn things runs great, and believe me its
    got some serious hours on it... i used it to earn money mowing about
    4-5 neighbors lawns before i was old enough to work... for about
    3-4 years...
    
    it's still running now, and probably will for a while longer...
    
    FRA

    Any info on Lawnboy Mowers?

    When I finally decided to bite the bullet and get a quality mower
    I went looking at lawn boys.  After all , the pros used them, people
    had lawn boys that were 30+ years old and going strong.
    
    Well I went through the yellow pages and went to a place in Milford
    NH, Brooks lawn and garden.  I was pi..ed.  Drove all that way and
    they no longer carried lawn boys!  It was an old ad.  As long as
    I'm here I'll look around.  They now carried Toro and the salesmen
    said "Look at this and you'll see why we switched."   I had looked
    at a lawn boy at another place the day before fortunately and just
    the way the bag dumps sold me.  It was so easy.  With the lawn boy
    you have to undo this gizmo, unzip the bag, dump it out, ...
    The Toro is so much easier.
    
    As for lasting power, who knows.  One can only hope.  At $425 I
    don't want to buy too many of these.  Anyway, I'd suggest looking
    at the Toro.  I doubt that you'll buy lawn boy after.
    
    My $425.02 worth.

Any suggestions for adding weight to our lawn tractor/snow thrower?
The thrower works quite well, except for the steep part of a long
(~450 ft) driveway.  The tractor already has wheel weights and
chains.  Currently, I run down and hop on the back, so I don't 
know the min we can get away with, only that we need no more than
130lbs.

Any ideas?

Two bags of sand, slung one either side. Then if you still get bogged down
you can always throw down some of your ballast for traction  :-)

Better still, strap your mother-in-law onto the machine !!

    Some tractors have a mechanism in the rear for lifting an attachment.
    In our case, the attachment point was a hollow tube. So what we did 
    was get a piece of pipe that was 12" in diameter, and weld a bottom 
    onto it. Then onto the bottom, we welded a piece of pipe that would 
    fit into the hollow tube on the tractor. In the 12" pipe we put lead. 
    This acted as a counter balance to the snow blower and added more 
    weight to the rear.
    
    This may not give you all the weight you need, but maybe give you an 
    idea in your particular situation.
    
    The wheel weights are home made too. They are twice as heavy as
    what was normally sold with the tractor. We made them out of scrap
    lead.
    
    One thing you could do is go to a scrap yard and pick up a piece
    of steel. What you need is a piece that is 4-6" thick an maybe
    12" wide and whatever height you need. Either bolt or weld brackets
    to it and bolt it to the rear of the machine.
    

    Steve    
    

>    Currently, I run down and hop on the back, so I don't 
>    know the min we can get away with, only that we need no more than
>    130lbs.

    By the way, it isn't clear whether or not you weigh 130#, but if 
    you do and the tractor makes it up the hill, then you will probably
    need substantially less. This is assuming you will never have to get
    off the seat again with whatever weight you need strapped behind the 
    rear wheels.

    With you on the seat and a weight behind the rear wheels you may
    need only 50# or so.

    fill the tires with water/anti freeze.  This isn't too hard to do
    and it puts the weight just where you need it.
    
    
    I used to do this with my fathers tractor and it worked quite well.
    
    
    -bill

    Thanks so much for the input....will let you know how it turns out.
    

    You could also fill the wheels with calcium which is the method
    of choice on large tractors. You should be able to get done at
    a john deere dealer or simular dealer. The calcium dosent rust out
    the wheels like water does but is not as easy to remove later.
    
    -j
    

    Water/antifreeze ought to be okay - there are rust inhibitors in
    the antifreeze.

    What I did with my small tractor was to attach an 8" bolt, (using
    two nuts and washers), to the trailer hitch flange. (Most of the
    bolt was up through the hole exposed). Then I added steel weight
    lifting plates, heavy 25lb plates. You probably can get three on.
    Worked well, removes easily when additional traction is not needed.
    
    

    I am in the market for a riding mower/lawn tractor.  I have narrowed
    it down to (in order of preference):  John Deere, Honda, and Snapper.
    I'm looking really for something to mow with and the other things
    (snow blowing, tilling, etc.) are not important.  A riding mower
    seems to be the way to go - something with a 38 inch cut from John
    Deere looks real good now.  John Deere is now selling that rider
    with a 12.5 Kawasaki engine instead of a Briggs.
    
    Does anyone have any negative experience with John Deere service?
    The purchase price for all 3 is about the same for the same size
    machine.

    {Also posted in Consumer}

    From everything I've heard, John Deere is top quality all the way.
    As far as service is concerned, that's probably strictly a function
    of the local dealer.  I'm not sure where you are, but I've heard
    that the dealer on Powder Mill Road in Maynard is quite good.

    I've found that using a good file to sharpen lawnmower blades
    is easier and faster than trying to use a grinder.
    

    I've found that using a disk sander is easier than either a file
    or a grinder.  A triangular file does come in handy as the fulcrum
    when staticly balancing the blade.

    I've found that shelling out a few bucks for a new blade is the
    best use of my time.  It's not like lawn mower blades are Pierre
    d'Escoffier chef's knives.
    
    (This is of course for standard 21" or so rotary blades which are
    just stamped metal and pretty cheap.  The base note refers to 48"
    blades for an obviously fancier and more expensive setup).

    Jim, you mean throw away the blades when they get dull? I'd go broke
    if I were to do that. I cut almost an acre, and I keep the Blades
    sharp (like, every two weeks of cutting and I cut twice a week)
    The sharper the blades the less fraying of the grass blades. I put
    alot into having a nice lawn, and with sharp blades the lawn looks
    nicer. 
    I remove the blades (2~19" long) and hold them in my vice and sharpen
    them with a disc sander using a 120 grit sanding disc. This way
    I get a nice even/sharp edge. By keeping them sharp I cut down on
    the amount of metal I remove for a real dull rounded edge blade.
    
    Jim
                                      

    
    	Remember new blades are not that expensive.  I picked up a new
    one for $11.  It is important that the blade has the upturned edge on
    the end to create the suction for grass bagging.  With the new blade
    and the washed up mower bag, my mower is bagging like brand new.
    	I usually only sharpen the blade twice a year with a flat file 
    unless I'm particularly lucky in my weekly rock hunt :^)
    					=Ralph=

    Re: .12
    
    It depends...a set of three blades for the 38" mower on my tractor
    was something over $30, and that was a while ago.  Besides, the
    hard part (I think) is taking the old blade off and putting it on
    again.  The sharpening part is relatively trivial.

    
    Has anyone tried the new rubber [?] blades?
    
    Charlie

    Can anyone help me make servicing of my riding lawnmower a bit more
    convenient?  The problem has to do with the difficulty (impossibility?)
    of draining old oil and replacing it with new without spilling it
    all over the lawnmower.
    
    The oil outlet on my used Jackobsen (spelling?) with a 5 HP B&S
    engine is right over the horizontal back part of the mower, several
    inches in.  It's impossible to remove the drain plug without the
    old oil draining all over the mower, as there's no space to insert
    some kind of pan between the drain and the mower.  Lifting the mower
    up on its back supports still doesn't help much.  So what I thought
    I'd do is extend the drain by inserting in some threaded pipe of
    some sort and putting the plug at the end of the extension.
    Has anyone ever done this? Does anyone know what diameter pipe or
    tubing to use? How about the threads?
    
    The oil input is much better, but it's still difficult to pour in
    old without spilling it all over, so I'd like to extend the inlet
    up quite a bit.  Same questions as for the drain extension.
    
    For the oil input I can, of course, just take the cap off and carry
    it to the local hardware store.  But if I do that with the drain
    plug then the mower will be dripping dirty oil for several hours...
    
    Thanks,
    Rich

>						So what I thought
>    I'd do is extend the drain by inserting in some threaded pipe of
>    some sort and putting the plug at the end of the extension.
>    Has anyone ever done this? Does anyone know what diameter pipe or
>    tubing to use? How about the threads?
>    
	The drain  threads  are  either  1/8"  or  1/4" NPT pipe, readily
	available at your local hardware store.  They should have lengths
	that will suit your  application.    Use a pipe cap with a little
	'tape dope' (teflon tape) to  stop it up.  If it's very long, I'd
	look to fasten it to that deck to prevent damage should something
	give the pipe a hard rap.
	
	For the filler, check you local B&S  dealer/repair  depot.   They
	may already have a part that will 'bolt-on.'
	
	Chris

                Wish I could remember what size my B&S engines took
        (done on both my snow blower and my generator) but it definitely
        is a standard size for the B&S engine. I would suggest brass for
        the pipe. It isn't that much more (remember - you only need a
        small amount) and I think it will stand up to an accidental
        knock better (possibly bend instead of breaking?). You can also
        get 90 degree and 45 degree elbows to make it as convoluted as
        you need (you just can't go uphill with it). As for the teflon
        tape (or anything else), it is overkill as there is virtually no
        pressure there and oil is viscous enough that it won't seep out
        (at least mine never has). A good hardware store that also sells
        mowers or blowers could probably tell you right off, or just buy
        both sizes and take back what you don't use.
                
                /s/     Bob

    I think it will be 1/4" NPT.  Brass or steel - personally I'd buy
    the cheapest.  

    I recently bought a Toro and had some problem changing the oil the
    first time without spilling it.  A more careful reading of the
    instructions (and following them!) made it much easier.
    
    The drain plug is also near the deck but empties to the side, not
    the rear.  That may be no difference.  Toro suggests that you raise
    the side one foot higher than the other side and prop it up.  Then,
    remove the drain plug and slip on a clear plastic tube that is a
    rather tight fit over the drain.  When it's on well, ease the mower
    off down to level, draining the oil into a container.
    
    It works.
    
    As for adding oil, don't the newer design oilcans (with necks) make
    it easier for you?  If not, I don't understand the design of your
    mower.  Try a funnel.
    

< Note 2501.0 by HALLEY::FRIDAY >

	I just did oil changes on all my 4 cycle gas equipment this past
	weekend.  My Snapper is the same way but I noticed that my Bobcat
	snow blower had about a six inch extension to go just beyond the
	fairing.  I intend to fix this on my Snapper.  However for oil fills 
	the fill is usually low down on the engine, I find that an automatic
	transmission funnel works great (it has a real long narrow snout).

	Here's my question, how do change the oil on a push mower when the
	drain is underneath without getting oil everywhere, I'm considering
	building a service ramp that will work with all my yard equimpment
	anybody else done something like this?

							Randy

    
    CdH
    

    I save the plastic buckets from joint compound.  They are light,
    easily stacked to make the proper height, and sturdy.  They also
    serve as excellent receptacles for used engine oil.
    

    
    I just don't change it!  
    
    ;^)
    

    Like .9, I have yet change the oil in my lawn mower (2 years).
    I got the thing free.  I have no idea how old it is and I
    certainly don't have an owner's manual.  However, I believe
    the time has come to change the oil.  Having never owned a
    house or a lawn mower before this one, I have a simple question:
    
    What grade/weight/brand etc oil is recommended?  Can I just
    use the Castrol 20W50 I use in my car and truck?  Thanks.
    
    Sid

    
    The manual I have.. Tecumshen (sp) .. specified  10w 30 or 40.
    
    In 8 years I only had to add oil this year. I think I didn't check
    it for a few years.  ;^)  The mower runs great..
    
    Cal.
    

    
    There's no need to use a multigrade oil.
    

    In Snowblowers your should use 10W oil---30W in lawnmowers.
    
    Agree there is no need for multi-weight.
    
    /tb/
    

    I don't want to be accused of overworking this issue, but the manual
    for my Ariens (Tecumseh engine) says to use 5W-30.
    
    pbm
    

    Amazing.  My uninformed guess then is that it probably doesn't
    make a whole lot of difference which oil I use.  The 20W50 seems
    inappropriate but I've got a couple quarts of 10W40 lying around.
    
    I think what I was trying to ask was: will I be doing the engine
    (if I remember correctly it's a Briggs & Stratton) any harm
    by using an oil other than that which is optimal (suggested
    by the owner's manual which I don't have)?
    
    If I've interpreted the preceding replies correctly, the answer
    to my question is "no" and I can go ahead and use the 10W40
    this weekend.
    
    You all may now resume your argument.  :-)
    
    Sid

    
    I bought a Sears Lawnmower (Tecumseh engine) last year (my previous
    15 year old sears lawnmower finially died). In the manual it says
    to use either straight 30 or 10W30. Any other oil used will void
    the warrenty.
    
    Mike

    
    If you want the mower or any engine to last a little longer use
    the multi grade..
    
    The most damage done to any engine is when it's first started up
    after sitting idle for a while. Even in very warm weather oil cools
    off and a single grade takes that much longer to get flowing to
    protect the moving parts. Granted there is some left to lube the
    parts, but it's that first crank that does it.
    
    On the older motors the single grade was fine due to tolerances
    and such, but not now . 
    
    Course you should change to oil too. I haven't changed the oil,
    but use what the book says.
    
    Cal.
    

    
    FWIW ...
    
    Multigrade oil breaks down after a while, so it tends to act like
    the lower weight after a while.  So a 10W30 would eventually act
    more and more like a straight 10 weight oil.  I myself would use
    straight 30 weight for this reason.
    
    -tm
    

The repair book for both my snow blower Tecumseh and my lawn
mower (Briggs & Stratton) says to
tip the unit on side (mower) or auger housing (snow blower) and
dump the oil through the fill tube. Question is, won't the oil
get into the cylinder and create a problem?

cal hoe who_just_realize_how_expensive_small_engine_repairs_are_so_expensive

    I need a throttle cable for my lawnmower. The one that is being removed
    is about 58" long. The only two sizes I have seen are 47" and 71".
    Do yu'all know if they come in other sizes or is the assumption
    that use one of those two cables and cut it if necessary?
    
    				herb

    Who makes the Lawnmower ? and have you contacted them or a distributor
    of their parts for the throttle cable ? 

    good questions, good suggestions. Answer to all questions is no.
    Will do
    
    				herb

    I tried to find a replacement for mine and a dealer would sell me
    one for $10. I bought a generic replacement at Spag's for $1.95
    or so and lashed it to my lawnmower with nylon wire ties. Has
    worked fine for this season.
    
    BTW, the replacement was too short, so I have to stretch to get
    to the throttle now, but I usually only make a couple of adjustments
    per hour.
    
    ERIC

    
    
      I checked out the new STX mowers from JD this weekend and was
    quite surprised. They really are cheap. Not in the money department
    though. These machines aren't much better than any department store
    brand. There painted JD green if you'll pay an extra grand for color.
    They'll show you a video comparison of the JD to a Sears rider. The
    tape points out three things. The decks thickness, turning radius
    and seat ajustment. All three weren't that big a deal. They have a
    little nob to ajust the seat, sears needs a 9/16 wrench. There deck
    is a hair thicker than sears and they turn in 22inches while sears
    takes up a whole 31inches. I guess I have to look around some more.
    one other note. The STX machines have koehler engines. You have to
    spend big $ for a cow motor.
    
    
    BAL

    re. Bal........the engines are made by KOHLER....the "e" goes to
    my name...:-)
    
    I agree the STX is a cheap machine riding on the JD name. Myself
    I bought a Agway made by MTD a few years ago. I have the bagger
    and I would put it up against and STX anytime. I paid under 1k
    for the hold thing.
     
    The Mad Weldor....Jim

< Note 1534.29 by ISWSW::LATTAKE "Life is uncertain, eat dessert first" >
                   -< Would like more info on MTD & others >-

Look into Wheel Horse. Not much advertised, but been around for a lot of years.
I've got a 1973 14HP that will still start before you can count to 3.
I don't know what today's options are for attachments, but I have a
42" snow blower, 48" mid-mount mower, 60" blade, harrow all still working
fine.

Bob

    
    
      Wheelhorse wants your first and last born for their machines, I
    can't see paying that type of money for a lawn tractor. I'm still
    looking though.
    
    
    Brian

    A friend of mine is quite happy with his Ariens Y-something, mows
    and blows, does other stuff.
    
    pbm
    

    Looked in 1288,2777, seems like this question would best be placed
    here w/ out starting a new note.
    
    I too have a Sears Craftsman lawnmower ( the $450.00 variety) it is a 
    walk behind w/ a plastic clipping catcher on the back. My question/sit-
    uation is that when I mow stray clipping accumulate on the metal screen
    which is located around the top where the pull cord is. I believe this
    is some type of air in-take. The questions are , does this impead the 
    performance, cause excessive engine heat/wear (assuming the air intake
    is for cooling), and is it normal?? The clippings accumulate to such a
    degree that after 3-5 mins. or so I need to stop to clean off the area.
    
    Anybody have a similar situation ? Is it normal ? If not any ideas on 
    a fix , or a work around ??
    
    ADV-thanx-ANCE-BOB
    

My 14 hp Sears tractor (and the mower and snowthrower attachments) is
getting tired. Fourteen years and already tired. They don't make'em like
they used to ;^). We originally had an Ariens 8hp snoblower; it did a
great job of snow removal but was limited to just that one job. And, it
cleared a narrower swath than the Sears, so it just plain took longer.

I think we're ready to move up. I went looking at Ford (1220) and Kubota
(5550?) tractors, and it appears as though I'm in the 14 to 16 hp diesel
range. I know I want four-wheel drive and turf tires, and I think I want
a front-end loader.  Also, probably a mower deck, although I  don't know
whether I want a rear- or mid-mount. The rear-mount looks easier to
remove & remount. The price range we're in is $10k-$12k max.

I don't do any commercial work, just my yard and paved driveway, pull a
trailer around with firewood on it, and (future) some *light* land
clearing work.

I have a couple of questions. First, are there any recommendations out
there for (a) tractor dealers in Southern NH, (b) tractors
themselves, and (c) can I live with a front-end loader in lieu of a
snowthrower?

Art

    I thinks there is a Ford tractor dealer on RT13 in Milford NH,
    near where the Milford Bypass crosses over RT13.
    
    
    
    
    Royce

  Hi Art,

  I've never heard anything bad said about Kubota products but they are
  awfully pricey.  There's a Kubota dealer on rt 106 just north of Hooksett 
  (not sure if that's southern enough for you) across from NH Explosives.

  Can I borrow your new tractor?
 
  JP

    Does anyone have any comments on the large "push"-type commercials
    mowers instead and ride-on type?  These are the kinds that you see
    lawn cutting services using.
    
    -al

    What about john-deere.... There is a John-Deere dealer in Southern N.H.
    somewhere around the DW-highway (use to be anyway).
    
    Just curious.!
    
    Bob G.
    

    I only have a John Deere riding mower, but I like it.  The dealer just
    came out and did a (free) recall on the gas tank.  They're American,
    althought the engine is Kawasaki.
    
    Peter

Well, I've been doing some more legwork.

Chappel Tractor is the Ford *and* Kubota dealer on Rt 13 in Milford. I 
crawled around both brands, and got prices on both.

Amherst Hardware 101A in Amherst has dropped John Deere, and only sells
the hardware chain lawn mowers now. 

The next closest JD dealers are in Peterborough, Manchester, and
Kingston. I went to the Manchester dealer (Standard Fence) last night. We
priced out a 1:1 compatible unit with identical accessories (1:1 with
Ford and Kubota). Holy Cow! JD is priced over 28% higher! But then, Kent
Chappel was giving me his "best" price; the JD dealer offered me 10% off
his list.

But in my travels I've listened to something that has me confused. My
brother-in-law has a few bucket loaders of various sizes for his
business. Like, he has them from 1-1/2 yard buckets to 10 yard buckets.
He is absolutely convinced that the little ones like I've been pricing
are just too small, period. With the lightness of the tractor, they can't
make a mark in a pile of loam if it's been sitting for any length of
time. Sandy soil, okay, and freshly dumped loam - with some skidding of
tires as you take a bite. He says if they leave a pile of loam -like for
two months or so- it takes their biggest bucket, with teeth on the
leading edge, to break the pile loose to where they can work it. He
claims the garden tractor-variety bucket loaders just bounce off a
hard-packed dirt bank.

Does anyone out there have any hands-on experience with these small
front-end loaders? I have no intention of doing large-scale commercial
gravel bank work, just yard & garden kind of chores, and slowly
(gradually- I have a couple of years) push in a dirt road across my lake
lot. Is a small bucket loader a bad investment?

Art

    There is a John Deere dealership in Lunenburg, Mass.
    Its 25 minutes from Nashua, 15 minutes from Littleton, Mass.
    Padula Brothers.. If any one wants ant additional information,
    please send mail to this account.
    
                Rick

    The largest John Deere dealer in New England for homeowner-size stuff
    is J. R. Rosencrantz in East Kingston, NH on Route 107.  They're
    advertising a big "Deere Season" blowout currently.  If you've 
    got the model numbers of the stuff you're comparing, a 'phone call
    might be worth the investment.
    
    (Warning - personal opinion) I never went to buy power equipment
    anywhere where somebody didn't try to sell me something twice as
    big as I needed.
    
    pbm
    

    re: .39
    
    Based on *very* limited experience, I expect brother-in-law
    is right about digging into a pile with a small bucket loader.
    I'm not sure that is necessarily a reason not to get one though.
    You may have to loosen up the pile with a pick first, or even
    put the bucket on the ground beside the pile and shovel dirt
    into it, but that's still miles ahead of a wheelbarrow.  It will
    also be handy for carrying rocks, gravel, or anything else around.
    I'd love to have one to build a stone wall with, for example.
    

    Well, the Jacobsen bit the dust.  What's the current feeling about
    brands of 1) self-propelled 2) rear-bagging mowers?  Has Craftsman
    mowers maintained their quality?  I know Toro and Honda are great
    mowers, but SO expensive.  Any cheaper one's you can rave about.
    
    					- Vick

    Snapper is supposed to have a very good reputation but it is not cheap. 
    I have had good luck with Lawn Boy, but again not cheap and it is a
    two-cycle engine.

    Snapper. Cheaper than Honda (what isn't?), and well-recommended.
    I have a 2 year old one that's just great. (not self-propelled, tho)
    
    John

    The Hondas are indeed expensive (though not noticeably more so than
    Toro), but if you do buy a Honda, as I did, you won't regret it.
    The blade clutch is a must-have feature in my view.
    
    					Steve

       You might want to check Consumer Report, they seem to do an annual
    issue. 
                                        Denny

    
    Do like I did and buy a used Snapper. They hold up well over time. I
    had to replace the two rear wheels because the tires split ($20) but
    otherwise it works great (self propelled). This was a six year old
    machine and cost me $200.
    
    CdH
    

    re: .20
    
>   The Hondas are indeed expensive (though not noticeably more so than
>   Toro), but if you do buy a Honda, as I did, you won't regret it.
>   The blade clutch is a must-have feature in my view.
    
    I have to second the blade clutch.  Several years ago I went shopping
    for a mower and was much more impressed with Honda's engineering than
    Toro's.  I would have preferred to buy a US made machine, but in the
    end, the Honda won hands down.
    
    It was expensive, but it's the last lawn mover I plan to buy for a LONG
    time.
    
    -Bob

    How long can you leave the engine running with the blade clutch engaged
    (i.e., the blade not spinning)?  Someone told me you were only supposed
    to leave it for 20 seconds or so, is that true?  I'm leaning for the
    Toro that has the switchable option of mulching or bagging.  I can get
    one for $500 which won't kill me, though it hurts.
    				- Vick

Re: .24

On the Honda, you can leave it running as long as you want.   I've left
mine going for 5-10 minutes.  There's nothing in the manual about a limit.

I compared the Toro and Honda models with equivalent features (blade clutch,
self-propelled).  The Honda was about $50 more.  The Toro's catcher bag was
a bit easier to remove and replace, but overall the Honda operated much
more smoothly and was noticeably quieter.  I liked the Honda's controls
MUCH better.

Note that many of the high-end "US brand" mowers, like many Toros, use
Japanese-built engines.

			Steve

I've had the Honda for about 4 years and often leave the engine idling ( clutch
disengaged ) during use.  I have had no problems with the clutch or any other 
part of the mower.  I've been continually impressed with this machine, both
the operation and how well it has held up.  I usually try to buy U.S. first,
but in this case I'm not sorry about the purchase.

al

    I have a Toro mower with a blade clutch.  The manual for it doesn't say
    anything about not leaving the mower running with the blade disengaged.
    I don't usually leave it going for more than a few seconds it takes to
    remove an obstruction or shoo away the neighbor's kids, anyhow.
    
    Now that mowers are required to have dead-man switches, I wouldn't buy
    one that didn't have a clutch: on my steep hill, you can only start the
    mower on a flat area anyhow, and if starting the mower also means
    starting the blade, which is how my neighbor's machine works (I
    borrowed it a few times when my last mower was not running - finally
    bought the current one last May), I have to not only roll the mower to
    a flat area, but to one with no grass, meaning all the way down the
    hill and onto the sidewalk - no thanks!  I just hope that the new
    machine lasts at least ten years, as the last one did.  They are
    awfully expensive for a machine to perform a chore that I really HATE
    doing anyhow!
    
/Charlotte

    I've just had an absolutely HORRIBLE experience with my 7 year old
    4hp Sears Eager-1.
    
    I took it out of the cellar where it had spent the winter with NO
    prep whatsoever, filled it with fresh fuel, primed it a couple times
    and pulled the rope. The damn thing started up like it had never been
    shut off, and my last excuse for not mowing the lawn evaporated.
    
    grrrrr.....
    
    Edd

    Re .28
    
    I just hate when that happens!!!!
    
    
    Bruce

    re: Blade clutches
    What does this really buy you? The ability to reach under the mower
    without shutting the whole thing down? I'd rather disable the dead
    man switch, than pay a couple extra hundred for a novelty like
    a blade clutch...
    
    John

    I've seen the Snappers with the blade clutch and wish my Snapper
    had it too.  Because mine doesn't have it, when removing the bagger,
    I have to shut the motor off.  With the clutch, I could just
    stop the blade to empty the bag.
    
    With the Snapper, you definetely don't want the blade spinning when
    removing the bag.
    
    The biggest thing I never did like is a lawn mower that is front wheel 
    driven.  Many Sears models are/were this way.  I find those tend
    to dig up the lawn more and are a pain when working in tight spots.
    Fortunately, my Snapper is rear wheel driven and has a differential.
    It also can be pushed or pulled as easily as the non-wheel driven
    models.
    

Re: .30

If your mower has a blade clutch, then when you let go of the dead-man
control, the blade stops within 3 seconds but the engine keeps running.
Without that feature, the engine is killed and that means you have to
start it again.  The blade clutch makes life MUCH easier when using the
mower, as you can empty the catcher with the engine still running, or
just let it sit for a moment.

I would NEVER reach under the deck of a mower with the engine running,
blade clutch or no!

				Steve

    re: .30
    
    Another nice thing the blade clutch is if you have to move the mower
    over dirt or loose gravel (the left side of my lawn that HAS to get
    paved this year :-) ) one can do it without raising a dust storm.  As
    said before,  it's nice to be able to empty the grass catcher or move
    something without having to restart the mower everytime.
    
    -Bob

    I don't get it.  What's so hard about restarting a lawn mower,
    especially when it's one of these guarenteed_to_start_on_the_
    2nd_pull models?
    
    Personally, I like the sound of quiet for the few minutes it takes me
    to empty the catcher and down a beer!  :-)
    
    John

    It is usually not possible to start up my mower in grass on the steep
    slope I have, and it was *always* impossible to start my neighbor's mower
    (where starting it started the blade moving, too) there, so I have to
    roll the thing down to sidewalk at the bottom of the hill to start it
    (actually starting it is easy enough most of the time) and then push it
    back up to where it left off to continue - definitely a pain since it
    makes a nasty job that much nastier.   I like to get done as fast as
    humanly possible and then get inside and shower off the pollen before
    my sinuses let me know that I've been working with grass too long.
    
    Yeah, I do wonder if the clutch will eventually fail.  But if it does,
    I'll get it fixed.  After all, the mower won't last forever anyhow - I
    was real lucky the last one I owned lasted ten years.  I'm not exactly
    real good about maintaining the things since I basically hate them
    anyhow...
    
    I preferred the front wheel drive to the rear-wheel drive my current
    machine has.  In order to pivot this machine at the end of a row, you
    have to use the clutch (if you let it out halfway it disengages the
    drive wheels - took me a while to get good at doing this).  With the
    front wheel drive mower, you lean into the handle and raise the drive
    wheels off the ground and then pivot in place to start the next pass.
    With the new mower, it is easier to make circuits around the yard, so I
    often do that instead of going back and forth (except in the really
    steep areas), but the lawn doesn't look as good when you do that.
    
    Don't disable the dead-man switch - the toes you save could be your
    own!  By the same token, don't remove the bag or chute unless your
    mower closes up to mulch the clippings - any small rocks or other junk
    you run over can go flying out at high speed otherwise.
    
    
    /Charlotte (who cut her grass last night event hough it was still wet)

    re:.34
       Way ta go Hawk! You obviously know what you're doing!
                                     Denny

re: << Note 1642.35 by CADSYS::RICHARDSON >>>

>    It is usually not possible to start up my mower in grass on the steep
>    slope I have, and it was *always* impossible to start my neighbor's mower
      
      Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems to me that if your mower
      is stopping there is a reason for it.   Probably  either  that  it
      needs a tune up or that you need a more powerful mower.
      
      Clutch or no clutch, I think that my idea of safety is to turn OFF
      the mower when removing  the  bag  or  when  doing  ANYTHING  that
      involves leaving the operator's position.  Which is a good part of
      the reason that I don't bag the clippings.

    Okay, it looks like it's coming down to a race between the Toro
    26622 and the Honda HR215.  They have about the same features and
    the Honda is only $20 more expensive.  Any feelings about the
    difference between belt drive (Toro) and direct drive (Honda).
    
    Thanks for all the comments so far.
    						- Vick
    
    P.S.  I've always missed my old front wheel drive Toro.  I agree with
    Charlotte.

I think the HR215 is the model I have.  I compared it directly against the
Toro with comparable features and decided I liked the Honda's "user
engineering" better.  It was also quieter and appeared to be better
constructed.  I've used it for two years now and have absolutely no
complaints.

				Steve

    It's a done deal, I got the Honda.  I didn't really want to send my
    kids to college anyway. 
    						- Vick

    Re: .40
    
    You still can - just send them out around the neighborhood with
    your mower having them mow other people's yards! :-)  (Of course,
    you'll have a hard time getting your OWN lawn mowed then!)
    
    			Steve

If you're considering the advanced Toro (Self Propel, Blade Clutch,
Rear Bagger ...) then checkout the comparable John Deere's. I looked
at them both last year, they had similar features and sold for about
the same money. In the end I chose the John Deere for two reasons and
have been very pleased with it.

1. The JD's rear bagger is easier to mount/dismount and easier to empty. 

2. The JD's blade and drive controls on the handle are more straight 
   forward and easier to use than the Toro's. Toro combined the two
   functions into one control handle that I found awkward to use. 

Charly

The Toro dealer told me that the Toro had a Honda engine in it.
He also said that the Honda mowers are mostly American made with
Japanese engine.

any truth to this?

cal hoe

    Toro uses Suzuki engines on their upper end models.  Honda uses Honda 
    engines.  The Hondas are supposedly manufactured in a plant in
    Marysville, Ohio.
    						- Vick

Just checked with Hammer Hardware in Nashua, they don't carry Honda HR214 
anymore, which is about $100 less than current HR215. Does anyone know the 
difference between these two models? Any information about which stores might 
have Honda HR214?

Any input is appreciated!!

Anne

The HR214 is the model I have, which I bought two years ago.  I'm not surprised
that it is no longer readily available.  But what are they asking for the
HR215 now?  I think I paid around $610 for my HR214 at Hammar in Nashua -
I noticed them advertising the equivalent Toro at $619.

				Steve

	Are you people *really* paying $600+ for lawnmowers ?  Are they
	gold plated or something ?  

	Chuck

    
    I am interested in any comments that anyone has on mulching lawn
    mowers.
    
    Bob Brister
    
    

    YEAH! WELL! There's a BIG difference between a 600.00 dollar Honda
    mower and a 200.oo dollar Sears mower!
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    ABOUT 400.00 DOLLARS
    

    RE: .47 and .48, it really depends on what features you're looking for.
    A bare bones mover WILL be dirt cheap, but if you want features such
    as:
    
    1)Self propelled, with multiple speeds, and driven by a transmission
    
    2)Blade clutch rather than just a dead man control
    
    3)an effective bagger
    
    Then you'll pay the bucks. Also, though you may have had good experiences 
    with the longevity of a cheaper mower, if you use your mover very
    heavily, then problems may crop up. I've yet to meet anyone who spent 
    big bucks on a top mower who felt that the money wasn't well spent.
    
    Eric

There's one thing I don't like about my Honda.  It claims it has drive
speeds, indicated on the lever by a turtle and a hare (cute).  But in this
race, there would be a tie as the slow speed is not noticeably slower than
the fast.

This usually doesn't bother me as I run it in the fast speed most of the time,
but it does occasionally annoy.

				Steve

re:-1

Well, that's not the case with my HONDA. I have the same model as yours. Mine 
is about four to five years old. There is a noticable difference between the 
slow and fast speeds. The problem is...the slow is TOO slow! It's really only 
good for using around bushes or small places; too slow for doing any stretch 
of lawn. Maybe this can be adjusted?

My one major complaint about the HONDA I've got is that it is too heavy!! 
Apparently, I've got one with a steel deck. When the bag gets near full, and 
I'm pushing and pulling around bushes, it really gets to be a chore. I've 
decided this year to only bag the clippings if I let the lawn get too high. 
Otherwise, I got a side discharge chute that clips on in place of the bag.

And now, (the anti-big-buck-mower noters will enjoy this one): last year it
cost me $111 to repair my HONDA. That's right!! The spark generating thing
under the hood went bad!! At this rate, I could have bought a cheapo lawn 
mower EACH YEAR since I bought the HONDA, and would have even saved money!!
From someone who has gone the big buck route: I'm really beginning to wonder 
if it's worth it???

Bob

My Honda is about 5 years old as well and there is a significant difference 
between the rabbit and turtle speeds.  Maybe something has changed over 
the years.

I have the steel deck version and ( on a pre-season sale in Atlanta) I paid a 
little over $400 for it.  The Atlanta mowing season is fairly long and I
put the mower through it's paces.  I had to do a little minor repair work
this season, and including that, my total non-gas expenses have been less
than $100.  I'm very happy with the features and costs of this machine.

al

    Used my Honda for the first time yesterday.  The grass was 6 or 7
    inches long (no exaggeration) and very wet.  The Honda went through
    it like it wasn't there.  My old Jacobsen would have clogged and
    stalled.  I would not have been able to use the power assist because
    the mower would not have been able to keep up with itself.  That was
    the top of the line Consumer's Reports "best buy" Jacobsen.  As for
    the speeds on the Honda, I think the slowest speed is slightly too
    fast.  But I'm not complaining.  The Jacobsen only had one speed, which
    was never the one I wanted.  I love the blade clutch.  I agree that
    the machine is heavy, nearly 100 pounds.  But I'm a macho guy.
    
    By the way, I looked at the Sears top end and was not impressed. 
    Everything looked cheaply made.  Pay particular attention to the height
    adjusters on the wheels.  The ones on the Sears mower just didn't look
    like they'd last.  The one's on the Honda look very heavy duty, and
    they are extremely easy to use.  I always look at the height adjusters
    because the one's on the Jacobsen froze up on me early on and I never
    adjusted the height after that.
    					- Vick

I haven't had anything go wrong with my Honda in two years.  I suppose the
slow speed is slower than the fast speed, but it's still too fast (something
Consumer Reports noticed.)  I still love it, though, and it has never given
me any cause to regret its purchase.

				Steve

    
    I generally find that once the particular mower has been mulched, it
    tends to not run as well as before.
    
    
    

    The Toro mower has three speeds (plus neutral).  I never use the
    slowest speed.  The medium speed is a bit slower than my normal walking
    speed, so, if I am in a big hurry, I shift the mower into its fastest
    speed, which is a slow jog, and mow at that speed.  It is a bit hard to
    control the mower going across a slope at the high speed, though - the
    aluminum/plastic mower weighs a good deal less than the heavy steel one
    I used to have and will scoot around if it is going faster than I am
    and the grass is wet.  I don't shift into slower speed around bushes
    and trees since I can clutch the drive wheels.
    
    I've been mowing for a month now (central Mass.) - you folks in
    Northern NH have it easy for this chore!  And one thing you learn real
    quick if you have a steep yard is that it is a whole lot easier to mow
    often than to try to mow real tall grass.

reply: << Note 1642.49 by NSSG::FEINSMITH "I'm the NRA" >>>

>                                        I've yet to meet anyone who spent 
>    big bucks on a top mower who felt that the money wasn't well spent.
      
      I  know that its not "amateur statisticians night", but if it were
      I'd be compelled to point out  that  if  you  sample  only  people
      who've  spend  big  bucks on a "deluxe" mower the the opinions you
      get on the value received from spending big bucks  on  a  "deluxe"
      mower  are  likely to be seriously biased in favor of spending big
      bucks on a "deluxe" mower.

    Bought a Sears bottom of the line 3.5 Hp 22" wide lawnmower for
    99 dollars 4 years ago and this year it needed a new plug, Now this
    mower isn't to pretty to look at but it cuts my lawn just as well
    as the most expensive top of the line mowers.. I quess if you have
    an acre or two to cut you need a big buck mower but I just can't
    help thinking for an average yard (10,000 sq ft) like mine it's
    not to cost effective, I'd rather spend my money on better things..
    
    							
    
    						John
    

Prevent noise and exaust polution and use human power... 

A good push mower works great!!

    
>>    Bought a Sears bottom of the line 3.5 Hp 22" wide lawnmower for
>>    99 dollars 4 years ago and this year it needed a new plug, Now this
>>    mower isn't to pretty to look at but it cuts my lawn just as well
>>    as the most expensive top of the line mowers.. I quess if you have
>>    an acre or two to cut you need a big buck mower but I just can't
>>    help thinking for an average yard (10,000 sq ft) like mine it's
>>    not to cost effective, I'd rather spend my money on better things..
    
    I have an acre of grass to mow and my middle of the line Sears mower 
    has served us well. My previous middle of the line Sears mower lasted
    15 years. This one is 2 years old and runs great. I just change the oil
    at the beginning of each season, and the sparkplug every other season.
    I would have kept my previous lawnmower if the parts to fix it wern't 
    so expensive. I needed a new magneto and carb. The cost for these parts
    was only $10 less then a new mower.

    
>>  Prevent noise and exaust polution and use human power... 

>>  A good push mower works great!!

    Yeh, right. Try that on my lawn. I have a power mower, but it isn't 
    power drive and it takes me 2 hours to mow my lawn (at a very good
    pace). It'll take me 4 days with a push mower. And I'd have to do it
    3 times a week.

    Mike

                      Mow the lawn From Your Hammock

    The Lawn Ranger is a computerized robot that will cut the grass by
    itself. Just use a joystick to guide the ranger around your lawn's
    perimeter, and then let it go on automatic. As you loll in a
    hammock, an infrared sensor system steers the mower toward uncut
    grass. The Lawn Ranger, created by two inventors at Technical
    Solutions Inc. in Damascus MD, shuts itself off when there's no more 
    grass to cut or it encounters and obstacle such as a tree. An
    optional sonar sensor can even maneuver the cutter around trees and
    shrubs. An electronic kit costs $690, not including batteries,
    motors, and frame. A fully assembled version might be ready next
    summer at a not yet determined price.
    {Business Week May 14, 1990}

re .60:

Is this HOME_WORK or RISKS DIGEST?

    Sounds great - bet it won't work on steep slopes, won't manage to not
    mangle my lilies or my strawbeery and rhubarb beds, won't work when
    there are soggy areas in the backyard, and in general won't work
    without me walking along behind it - but if YOU buy one when they come
    out, I'd love to have you come over and try it out on my yard!
    
    /Charlotte (feeling very skeptical!)

    
    I'd like to see how it works on lots like my wifes parents where there
    isn't any fence or structure between any of the houses. They'd turn the
    thing on and it wouldn't come back for days as it mowed about 30 lawns
    8*) 8*) 8*)
    
    Mike

    Well, if it brought me an opened beer every 20 minutes while I lie on
    my hammock, I'd consider buying one no problem!  Now, if it somehow
    could help me out every 3rd beer.......  :-)

    My wife has a "robotic lawn mower"..........
    
    
    Me!
    
    Jim

    re:  Anyone want to rent me a son?
    
    Since my oldest kid is of the female persuasion, I consider myself an
    "Equal Opportunity Parent" and will hold no reservation to adding lawn
    mowing to her list of chores when she gets a little older!   :-)
    
    John

    You can bet that when they put the final price tag on the "Lawn Ranger",
    $600+ for a Honda will sound real cheap!
    
    Jim

    John, i have two daughters....one in college and one that turned
    16 recently..........unfortunatly at that time, she became a lady
    and has too many "other" things to do.
                                                   
    I think I'll get out my remote control unit (model planes) and try
    to hook it up along with my PC....and teach my rider to do the lawn
    when I'm not in the mood.
    
    The Mad Weldor....Jim

Getting back to the topic of cheap vs. expensive lawn mowers...

I own a Honda lawn mower, and recently had the "opportunity" to use my
father's brand-new top-of-the-line Sears lawn mower.  Being accustomed
to my Honda, the Sears mower seemed like a piece of junk.

    re .-1
    If someone mowed half your lawn with the Honda, and the other half
    with the Sears, could you tell the difference?

    >If someone mowed half your lawn with the Honda, and the other half
    >with the Sears, could you tell the difference?
    
    No, but the guy who mowed it could tell you the difference.  And I'm
    the guy who mows my lawn.
    					- Vick

	Politics


	Religion


	Lawn mowers?!?

 8^)  8^)  8^)			--Mike

    
>    No, but the guy who mowed it could tell you the difference.  And I'm
>    the guy who mows my lawn.
    
    What *is* the difference, and how did it affect your ability to mow
    the lawn with it?
    
    John

  Thank you :-). That made my day

    All this discussion about which Lawn mower is better is making my
    head spin... I think I will pave the whole yard and rent it as
    parking space.
    
    :^)

    
    
    
    
    
    A CAN OF GREEN PAINT ON CONCRETE.

    RE: .76  "Pave the lawn"
    
    In the 60's there was an owner of a Baltimore row-house (they had
    tiny front lawns) who covered his lawn with green concrete - in the
    center was a 6"-high pedestal - on which he had permanently enshrined 
    his push lawn-mower.
    
    
    I once lived in a town that had not yet discovered the concept of
    zoning regulations.  This was an urban area (near Washington, DC)
    with tiny lot sizes (< 1/4 acre).  Somehow somebody found the space 
    between two of these tiny lots to build a third house - the house 
    had to be angled to fit on the lot. Anyway, the owner evidently didn't 
    see any point to growing grass on whatever square-footage was 
    unoccupied by the house - he used astro-turf (or more likely, a cheap
    supstitute).  The effect was breath-taking ....

    
    Believe me, I've thought about it!
    
    But I'd rather just buy a goat! - wonder what my neighbors would say
    about that!
    
    Boy, I just hate MOWING!!!!!!!!!  But I don't think you could pay
    anyone to do my place more than once, between the boggy areas and the
    steep slope - you definitely couldn't pay ME to it if I didn't have to.

    Why don't all you people who hate mowing grass plant other ground covers
    (pachysandra, vinca, etc.)?  That's what I'm planning to do.

The problem with ground cover "lawns" is that ground cover plants usually
don't hold up well to foot traffic, are slippery when wet and stain your
clothes when you slip and fall.  Not a big issue if you're a recluse and
live alone, but a bigish problem if you have kids and/or like to use the
yard for recreational purposes.

And then there are the neighbors...I once planted a clover lawn (stays green
all summer and only grows 4 inches high.)  You can lose a lot of good will
over a move like that.  
					>>>==>PStJTT

    re: .81
    
    I must be missing something, somewhere.
    Why would anybody object to a clover lawn???

    re .-1
    Probably due to either the clover spreading to said neighbor's grass
    only lawn, or just plain doing something different than the rest of
    suburbia.
    
    John

>    Probably due to either the clover spreading to said neighbor's grass
>    only lawn, or just plain doing something different than the rest of
>    suburbia.

     If they can't take a joke, screw 'em.

    RE: Clover lawn & neighbors
    
    Probably the reason, although they wouldn't admit to it, would be that
    they think a clover lawn is a sign of an unkept house hence devaluing
    their property.  It's kind of like the guy who has grass but never
    mows it.  Most people expect a nice lush green grass lawn.
    
    -al

I was out in Colorado last week, and many people spend lots of time,
aggravation and precious water trying to keep up lush lawns in a region that
really can't support them.  I was told that there is starting to be a 
movement towards "zeroscaping", where instead of grass and other greenery,
people try to create a more authentic regional appearance with rocks and
desert plants.  Done well, it looks much better than out-of-place grass.

				Steve

            <<< Note 1642.84 by MFGMEM::S_JOHNSON "This Side Up" >>>
>     If they can't take a joke, screw 'em.
    
    You know, when you live in a tight neighborhood with several dozen homes
    on 10,000sf lots, you kinda like your neighbors to take care of their
    lawns because property values can descend quite quickly when 50% of the
    houses on your street look bad. So, the laissez faire attitude toward
    lawn care isn't always appropriate.
    
    Mike

re   <<< Note 1642.87 by CUPMK::PHILBROOK "Customer Publications Consulting" >>>

   I still find it hard to comprehend how a clover lawn would reduce property
  values.

	Re: .88

>  I still find it hard to comprehend how a clover lawn would reduce property
> values.

	Because property values are all based on perceptions.  And one of those
perceptions is what kind of neighbors you're going to have after you move in.
When I was looking to buy my first property, I found a very nice 3-apartment
building off the beaten path at a nice price.  I would have bought it except
that the neighbor's entire yard (oh, probably around 50,000 sf or so) was one
big junkyard.  You name it, it was in there.  Would I want to look at that
every day?  No.  Would I have a hard time selling it later on if my neighbor
hadn't moved/cleaned out first?  Probably.  (And it was probably one of the
reasons why it was on the market at the price it was when I was looking...)

	A clover yard isn't quite as dramatically visible, but it runs against
the common perception in this area of the country (NE) that a "nice" neighbor
has a perfect lawn with no weeds or brown spots.  Its silly, but true.  Besides
the problem of it spreading into the lawns comprised of grass, it just looks
"wrong" enough to degrade from the overall appearance of the neighborhood.

								-craig

	P.S. to my .89

	And, of course, if you have the clover lawn and you try to sell the
property, you're limiting your potential buyers to be either someone else who
wants/likes a clover lawn or else someone willing to undergo the major headache
of trying to kill off the clover and start the grass lawn from scratch.  Anytime
you're restricting the potential market for your house, its value is less due
to the lessened competition.

								-craig

    On the subject of lawn mowers, I've seen dethatcher attachments in
    K_mart that fit onto the front of the lawn mower.  I can't use these
    because the front wheels have to be directly across from each other.
    My LawnBoy's front wheels are off-set from each other.  Does anyone
    make one of these attachments to fit my Lawn-Boy or any other mower
    with the front wheels off-set from each other?
    
    Chris D.

    I have a dethatcher blade purchased from a hardware store for about
    $10. You replace your mowing blade with the dethatcher blade and "mow" 
    as usual.
    
    Mike

    Does the detatcher blade also mow the grass at the same time?  I've
    never bothered to dethatch; it's tough to grow thick grass in solid
    clay anyhow, but if I were to do it, it would be nice if the extra
    blade could also mow.
    
    /Charlotte

    A dethatching blade doesn't have any cutting edges. It might beat long
    grass into submission, but I wouldn't count on a clean cut. Besides,
    dethatching generates enough mess on its own, without new grass
    clippings, so it's not something you'd want to do when the grass is at
    cutting length.

Yow -- I guess I should have filled in more information on the clover lawn.
My neighbors had no objections to the look -- it actually looks kind of nice,
especially when the blossoms are out.  The problem was that they loved their
nice putting green-like lawns and clover spreads like wildfire.  They'd get
huge clover infestations, which for them was very upsetting.  Nobody ever
asked me or pressured me to take it out -- I liked my neighbors and they liked
me and neither of us wanted to make the other unhappy.  I took it out because
it didn't bother me to mow grass as much as it bothered them to chase clover.

Now I live in a different place with neighbors who are also utterly fanatic
about thier lawns.  In past years I've always let the wildflowers bloom and
fade before I cut the lawn.  The neighbors humor me.  I humor them by keeping
the front clipped.  We're all happy.  This year I have a kid, so I'm keeping
the lawn cut so he can play on the grass... 

I travel to Phoenix on business a lot.  Out there they're getting into
natural landscaping rather than trying to out-Eastern the Easterners with
lawns.  It really looks good, though lawn is still a status-symbol.  Some
people are getting into raked gravel.  That can be a lot of fun too, but it
doesn't look good to play on.
					>>>==>PStJTT

    The proper way to de-thatch a lawn is to run whatever mechanism in a
    direction parallel to the direction you are travelling.  Power rakes,
    used for de-thatching, have a set of rotating tines that strike the
    ground in a direction parallel to your travel.  Some lawn attachments
    have what appear to be spring loaded rake fingers in front of or in
    back of the mower.
    
    Running a de-thatching blade in a circular fashion can really do a
    number on your lawn.  Most lawn care people would never ever use those
    cheap de-thatcher blades.
    
    -al

I also noticed that the manual for my Honda mower explicitly recommended 
against using any kind of de-thatching blade.  How much of that is normal
manufacturer caution, I'm not sure.  But I can imagine that a rotating
"de-thatching" blade would not be good for a lawn.

		Steve

>>    Running a de-thatching blade in a circular fashion can really do a
>>    number on your lawn.  Most lawn care people would never ever use those
>>    cheap de-thatcher blades.
    
      I was going to ask about that.  I could just picture this high-speed
    blade spinning and ripping up all the grass I have in the yard.
    
    Chris D.

The last time that I used a de-thatching blade (when I still lived in
Worcester, PRM), it very effectively ripped the grass out of the ground,
roots and all.

Here in Colorado, they recommend "core aeration" over thatching.  Core
aeration removes finger-sized plugs from your sod.  This gives the remaining
grass room to expand and breathe (the whole point of de-thatching), and also
allows your newly-applied fertilizer to get at the roots (important when
you're growing grass in sand).

    
    I've seen two people rip up lawns with dethatching blades.
    
    The first was trying to clean up last year's uncut, matted-down mess
    when the ground was hardly thawed and still soggy.
    
    The other person had the mower set so low that the tines were digging
    into the dirt; he had to tip the mower back to get the engine started.
    (That one was great! He succeeded in ripping a 20"wide, 1" deep trench
    down the middle of his front lawn.)
    
    My personal experience, and that of some of my neighbors, indicates
    that when used according to directions, a rotary dethatcher blade is
    an inexpensive and thoroughly adequate tool.
    
    -------
    
    And if God had meant for lawns to be aerated, he would have created
    ants and worms :-)
    

re de-thatching blades:

I used one this  spring  on a section beside the driveway that was matted
down quite heavily due parking cars on the area all winter.  In the past,
this part of the lawn had taken much longer to get growing in the spring.
The instructions with the blade were quite clear as to how  to set up the
height of  the mower;  the springs (actual de-thatching devices) attached
to the "blade"  should  just  come  in  contact with pavement.  They also
noted that, although the  lawn  would  look  pretty  bad  after using the
de-thatcher, it would come back better.

I did one half of this area with the de-thatcher blade and the other half
using a "dirt" rake and working  it  vigorously.  Quite a bit of "thatch"
was ripped loose using the blade and  they were correct, it looked pretty
bad.  The only problem area was where  I  thought  I  was  not doing good
enough so I lowered the mower height.  THEN  the  grass  and  roots  were
pulled up - teach me to be greedy!  I re-seeded that area.  

Now, a  month later, the grass looks ok.  However (remembering that I was
originally trying to  drain  the swamp) the matting is still there in the
area that I used  the  blade  on.   The area I de-thatched using the dirt
rake looks better and the  mat  is  less  obvious.  I don't think I would
recommend anyone spend the $5.00 for  the  blade  unless  they  were just
curious as I was.

Dave

	Re: .last several

	Just to be safe, this coming Fall I'll probably be renting a real
de-thatcher, but this discussion has gotten me curious about one thing.  Why
would the circular blade be so obviously bad?  It seems to me that the radial
velocity of the blade is so high compared to the forward velocity of the lawn
mower, that the motion of the lawn mower is practically negligable.  The only
real difference I see (and perhaps this is where the damage can occur) is that
the lawn-mower would de-thatch the grass from many directions (ie. all the
individual velocity vectors of the tines while the circular cutting region
passes over the blade) while the de-thatching machine would only go in one
direction.

								-craig

    I am looking for inputs good and bad on the Briggs and Straton 14 horse
    twin cylinder engine.   I am trying to decide whether to buy an
    Ingersol 12 horse single cylinder (Briggs) or a 14 horse twin cylinder.
    I will be moving appoximately 1/2 acre so the 12 horse is big enough
    but it boils down to reliablity for me.  Also,, anyone out there care
    to comment on Ingersol??? (used to be Case).  It look like a sturdy m
    machine,,, its a left over 89 model and I can buy either of them at 
    dealer cost.  Niether is hydrostatic but that not an issue for me
    because I will be able to mow 90% of my lawn without having to stop,
    so the convenience of hydrostatic isn't worth double the price of the
    tractor. 
    
    Inputs appreciated
    
    Bruce May
    

    Generally speaking, a 2 cyl engine of approximatley the same power
    as a 1 cyl engine will run at a lower rpm, which means less wear
    and tear, less heat, etc.  On the other hand you double the number
    of moving parts, so when an engine rebuild is needed, it'll probably
    be a bit more.
    
    Find out what the operating range (in RPM) the two engines have.
    The lower the better.
    
    Dave

    > Generally speaking, a 2 cyl engine of approximatley the same power
    > as a 1 cyl engine will run at a lower rpm, which means less wear
    > and tear, less heat, etc.  On the other hand you double the number
    > of moving parts, so when an engine rebuild is needed, it'll probably
    > be a bit more.
    
    > Find out what the operating range (in RPM) the two engines have.
    > The lower the better.
    
      Hmmmm, it's been years since I dabbled in motors (anti-pollution
      gear renders a modern motor incomprehensible to me) but something
      in the above doesn't parse...
    
      Since horsepower is measured as "X hp at N rpm", any valid rating
      of equally powerful engines would have to be done at the same RPM.
    
      I submit that the primary advantages of multi-cylinders are, in
      no particular order...
    
             1. Smoother operation, due to the offset of the power stroke
                between the cylinders. 
    
             2. A smoother power curve as RPMs increase...
    
             3. Lighter cylinder walls due to the smaller combustion
                chambers...
    
      Or maybe none of the above!
    
    Edd

>      Since horsepower is measured as "X hp at N rpm", any valid rating
>      of equally powerful engines would have to be done at the same RPM.

Not true.  Horsepower is measured by (torque)X(rpm).  It is *Specified* as X hp 
at N rpm to give an indicatation of where the engine develops it's maximum 
horsepower.  

So it would make sense - since you'd probably be able to develop more torque
out of two cylinders - that of two engines of the same horsepower, the twin
cylinder would operate at a lower RPM. 

Paul

    Re .43
    
    Bruce,
    
    Isn't 12 hp a bit of overkill for a 1/2 acre lawn?  Oh, I forgot: you
    used to commute in a 'vette. :-)
    
    Regards,
    Paul
    

    I have a Case-Ingersoll 11 hp tractor.  It is rugged, except for a pin
    in the attachment lift mechanism.  I have a snow-thrower and it is VERY
    heavy and it tends to break the pin every two years.  I'm sure it would
    rarely break unless you have the snow-thrower.  Then again, mine's four
    years old - perhaps they've beefed it up since then.  The pin costs a
    few pennies, but the labor (one hour) isn't so cheap.

    Anyone know what stores carry 2 cycle oil in 8 oz. containers?  I can
    only find 6 oz.  My Lawnboy uses a 32/1 mixture which is 8 oz. per 2
    gallons.  I had a "6 pack" of 8 oz. that I was given when I bought the 
    lawnmower (private sale) but ran out with the last fill-up.
    
    Thanks,
    Chris D.

     Where are you located ???
    
     Country Power Equipment on Main Street in Westminster,Ma. carries the
    six packs of 8oz Lawnboy oil. I would think any authorized Lawnboy
    dealer would also.
    
    Mick

    Sorry, I'm located in the Lowell, Ma. area.  
    
    Chris D.

    Try:
    
    Zwicker Power Equipment
    173 Billerica Rd
    Chelmsford
    256-1811
    
    Bob

    Yeah, but where the hell is Billerica Rd. in Chelmsford?  I know where
    129 and 110 are.  I also know where North Chelmsford center is.  Is
    it easy to find/near one of these areas??
    
    Chris D.

    I believe Billerica Rd. is also known as Rte. 4

Yes, but Zwicker Power is defintely on Rt. 129.
Turn left onto 129 from the exit ramp from Rte. 3 South.
Zwicker is almost to Chelmsford center on the left hand side.
Or, you could always call them and ask directions ... and if they
have the oil you want in stock.

    256-1811

-Amy

    Thanks Amy.  I just called and they do have it in the 8 oz size and
    they are on rt 129.
    
    Chris D.

    Another vote for the Honda mower.  I bought a 215 last winter after
    putting up with a hack mower for two years.  Besides making the
    job of mowing physically much easier, it has great suction for bagging
    clippings.  IMHO, it's better to remove and compost the clippings.
    The lawn also looks nicer when cut by the Honda as compared with
    my previous.
    
    I have about 25,000 ft^2 of lawn to cut, which I classify as medium.
    If I had a smaller lawn, say 10,000ft^2 or less, then I would consider
    a lesser, and less expensive, mower.
    
    I think the major difference between a 214 and a 215 is the addition
    of another speed, on top, making it a three speed.  Top is fine
    for fast mowing, low is good for crawling around obstacles.
    
    I'd be interested to try out the Honda, with the hydrsostatic
    transmission.  Any experience out there?
    
    regards,
    John K.
    

I settled on a John Deere 755 (20hp 3-cyl diesel). The one I found had a
bucket and a 60" three-blade mower deck. It has mid-mount and rear PTOs,
hydrostatic 2-range drive, and 4wd. I expect this is the last tractor
I'll ever buy. They gave me 2 John Deere hats -- how could I refuse?

JD has done a lot of work on making the attachments easy-on-easy-off. I
can remove the bucket in about 60 seconds flat. The mower is similarly
easy to remove, but you have to remove the bucket first, then the mower,
then put the bucket back on. (I learned this through experience.)

Now I'd like to find a source of three-point hitch implements. My logic
tells me that there must be a whole market out there that I just haven't
had occasion to stumble across. There must be catalogs etc that show and
list tillers, plows, stump pullers, wood chippers, generators, pumps,
splitters...  whatever, that run off a standard PTO. Not being a fahma,
I'm just not plugged into that network.  So, where are these things
advertised?

Also, what publications have articles that compare and evaluate this type
of equipment? Is there a "Sod Busters Monthly" or something like that,
that would have how-to articles - like, plans for a 3-pt hitch weight
box?

I'm learning how to chew grass and spit.

    I just picked up a 5 year old Sears Craftsman 10-36 lawntractor.  the
    10-36 stands for 10hp and 36in cutting path.  It has two blades.  Is
    this a good machine?  It says on a label that there is a snow thrower
    attachment available for it.  Does anyone know what that goes for ($)
    and are used ones hard to find?  
    I'll be dropping the tractor off either today or tomorrow to get some
    work done to it, but I couldn't beat the price I got it for, so the
    repairs are worth it.
    
    Chris D.

    Well, either nobody knows if the machine I picked up is a good one or
    not, or nobody wants to be the bearer of bad news.  :^)   The guy
    that's going to check it out and give me an estimate came and picked it
    up yesterday.  He asked if I got it from an enemy.  He said that the
    Sears lawn tractors are the "bottom of the line".  Oh well, the price
    was right anyway (free).  Let's see what it will cost to get the thing
    in good working order.  If it cast me a couple of hundred, I'm still
    ahaed.  The good thing is the guy that's checking it out is extremely
    honest and will try and save me money wherever he can.
    
    Chris D.

>    He said that the
>    Sears lawn tractors are the "bottom of the line".  Oh well, the price
>    was right anyway (free).  Let's see what it will cost to get the thing
    
>    Chris D.

    I would wonder about this guy.  My "K-Mart" lawn mower blade "broke"
    free  from  the  driving  force,  and  my local 'pricey-alternative"
    dealer  told  me that the shear pins always seemd to  let  go  under
    stress (like hitting rocks);  and that his 'brand' were far superior
    in performance. 
    
    I asked him if his had  a  'shear'  pin, he said that users weren';t
    supposed to hit rocks, and if they  did they'd be lucky if the crank
    shaft didn't get bent or worse.
    
    If it 'looks like' something here doesn't add up, i think its  this:
    The 'pricey-alternative' mower users  need  to  be  careful, because
    only my cheap mower has  a  shear-pin  (50  cent part) to protect it
    against careless users.
    
    Even though this guy chose to demean my mower every time I brough it
    in for a new pin, he is still one of the best around, so we'll leave
    his name out of it !
    
    -BobE
    ]
    
    

>
>    I would wonder about this guy.  My "K-Mart" lawn mower blade "broke"
>    free  from  the  driving  force,  and  my local 'pricey-alternative"
>    dealer  told  me that the shear pins always seemd to  let  go  under
>    stress (like hitting rocks);  and that his 'brand' were far superior
>    in performance. 
    
   Wait until the cheap hubs that those shear pins go through wear out.
The holes tend to elongate/crack and then you wish you had a quality non-shear 
pin hub. And can you figure out why the cheapies need a shear pin? It's due
to the fact that they use aluminum or cheap stamped steel arbor housings and
need to protect them from shattering.
If a person is lucky, a cheap tractor can give maybe 10 years service, where
a quality unit is can last 30 years.

Ross  (who has worked on all types)

    I think he was talking bottom of the line when compared to Toro, John
    Deer, Bowlens(sp), etc.
    
    This guy is excellent.  I bring everything to him.
    
    Chris D.

    Well lets compare two, our neighbors have a 1986 Sears and we have a
    1965 Cub Cadet. In the last two years we have helped them repair the
    transmittion, mower idlers, and an axle snapped. He has spent about
    $500 for parts. We have sharpened the blades on the Cub Cadet. His is
    a 10 horse with one acre to mow. Ours is a 7 horse with three acres to
    mow. Ya gits what ya pay for!
    Sandy
    

re-.1
Given the same drivers and conditions that story might acount to something.
It is possible the owners are a tad careless with their tools. I have a brother
that can break troy equipment and they don't come better than that.

-j

     I have aquired a 5 HP Ariens riding lawn mower.... I'm looking for someone
    who can give it a tune-up cheap! After starting the engine up it will
    now stay running with constantly move the choke on/off. Plus it is
    leaking oil.. So, after checking the Fitchburg Yellow pages The only
    Ariens dealer has gone out of business (Bellwood).  I don't really care
    if the person is a dealer or someone who does it on the side. I just
    want to get the lawnmower running right!  Please send mail or post it
    in her... Thanks
    
    Rick

    	RE: .57
    
    		There is an Ariens dealer in downtown Gardner that services
    what he sells and I am sure that he would be willing to fix your
    machine, however, I don't know what it would cost.  The address
    and phone number are as follows:
    
    		Gardner Power Equipment Inc.
    		509 Main Street
    		Gardner, Mass.   01440
    
    		(508) 632-7123
    
    	I went in there looking for a snow thrower, and I spent over
    1/2 hour talking to him about the different vendors of machines,
    and he was very helpful, courteous, AND not pushy.  One thing that
    is selling me on buying an Ariens is that he services them in his
    shop.  Hope that this helps.
    
    
    
    		Paul

    
    
    I had the opertunity to compare side by side a honda power mower
    to the toro. Since the area I have to cut is about 3/4 acer, my
    requirements included a fast running mower. 
    The Honda was an older model, about 3 yrs. and was under powered,
    slow,  had a small bag which had to be emptied often, and was heavy.
    The toro was fast, had a large bag, a wider cut, more powerful 5hp
    motor, and was lighter. Construction seems more solid, and less 
    comlplicated. 
    I bought the toro. Its basically their top power mower without the
    thatching option. I got it at Teds in Marlboro on rt 85. He knocked
    $75 off list, and threw in the optional chute at no cost. 
    The comprable honda was more than $150.00 more.  

    A 3 year old Honda costs more than a brand new Toro?

    
    It's really not a fair comparison. Honda makes a bigger mower to compare
    to the Toro. However the Honda is very expensive. I think they make an
    excellent mower, but not any better or that much better then Toro. Size
    for size and option for option the Honda is about 50% more then the Toro.
    
    Mike

Re: .114

That's not what I found.  In the models I compared with similar size,
power and features, the difference was less than 10% in price.

			Steve

    I agree with Steve.  I found the difference in price between comparable
    Honda's and Toro's to be too negligible to even be considered in my
    decision to go with Honda.  The superior ergonomics of the Honda was
    what finally made the decision for me.  
    						- Vick 

    
    	I need help/recommendations on gasoline for both my lawnmover
    and snowblower. In the last six months it has become harder and harder
    to find LEADED gasoline. Now with the trouble in the middle east it's
    impossible. I was told at several gas stations that even without
    the middle east all major gas stations would be phasing out LEADED
    gasoline.
    	My Honda owners manual recommended Leaded fuel. What I would like
    to know is what negative effects might occur if I use UNLEADED gas??
    Will I get valve damage without the lead??
    	If anyone has heard anything one way or the other please let me
    know. The Honda was an $expensive$ investment that I hate to have
    damaged unnecessarily.
    	Thanks in advance for any help!!
    
    >> Ed <<
    

    RE: leaded vs unleaded
    
    The way I understand it, most engines designed in the past 15 years
    or so have hardened valve seats, allowing the use of unleaded with
    no ill effects.  I've used it in my Jacobson lawn mower, my Lawn
    Chief tractor, and my Bolens snowblower with no ill effects over
    the past 8 years overall.  Besides, the amount of lead in "leaded"
    fuel in recent history is very small, and probably doesn't have
    much of an effect, if any, on the wear factor on an engine.  if
    you REALLY want lead added, buy some of the bottled additive stuff
    you can get at Bradless, etc, and add some to the gas can each time
    you fill it up.
    
    In my opinion, I'd use unleaded with no concerns whatsoever.
    
    andy
    

My Honda's manual says to use unleaded...

I agree with Andy, and so do several advice columnists I have read.  You
should have no problems using unleaded gas in your mower.

			Steve

If it's a 2 cycle engine, you don't even *have* valves or valve seats to
worry about.

-Mike

I believe all the Hondas are 4-cycle engines.  If you don't mix the oil
with the gas, it's a 4-cycle.

				Steve

    More important is the octane rating.  With a mower, it might be harder
    to hear pre-detonation, which can destroy a motor.  Some of the regular
    unleaded is below the indicated 87 octane.  I believe the middle grade
    89 octane is a better match for the old leaded regular.  The high test,
    91? or 93? octane may burn too slowly, causing burnt valves.  
    
    Carl
    

    sure glad my Bolens 23 hp. is propane powered...
    
    :-)
    
    The Mad Weldor....Jim
    
    actually, even if you burn a valve seat/valve, they are much easier to
    repair than say, a automobile engine.......Cheaper too.

    Speaking of lawn tractors, has anyone had to buy a wheel (and tire) for
    one lately?  I'm looking for 13x5.00-6 wheels and tires and I got one
    from Sears for $100(!), but I should think it would be a lot less....
    
    Anyone?
    
    Willie

    Anyone seen this ad lately on TV?  It's pretty funny.  The guy is
    basically a fanatic for V6 engines (it's an ad for the Dakota V6
    truck).  Anyway, he puts V6's into his lawn tractor and can now do
    his entire yard in minutes.  There's a picture of him tooling around
    the yard at amazing speeds.  He also has a V6 powered weedwacker, the
    engine being mounted on a back pack.  He fires it up and can weed
    wack entire picket fences away.  Then of course he has a V6 powered
    garage door opener which can open and close your garage door in about
    1/2 second flat.
    
    -al

    re.125
    This guy sounds like his mind is as warped as mine....:-)
    I'd like to see this ad.........
    
    
    The Mad Weldor....Jim

    
    
    How about the V8 powered mower-trimmer-brush cutter-logger in Richard 
    Pryor's movie "Moving"?

    re: V6 commercial
    
    Just as a point of clarification, the commercial is for the Vortec
    V6 in the Chevy S-10 pickup - but it is very humerous - especially
    when he puts the V6 on the back of his canoe  :-)
    
    andy
    

    The comedian in the comercial is Tim Allen, who has been doing
    extremely well lately.  He does a great routine on MEN and bases much
    of it around 'our' fascination with machines and tools.  "A man's not a
    man until he can find his way blindfolded to the Sears Craftsman tool
    department."    
    
    _Stan

    sure glad my Kubota 13 hp. is deisel powered...
    
    ;-)
    
    Carl

    There's been a lot of discussion around Honda mawn mowers in this
    note section.  Has anyone had good/bad experience with John Deere
    mowers (push or self-propelled)?  I need to get my hands on a used
    mower and really would like a Honda or John Deere.  Any suggestions
    on locating a GOOD used machine?
    
    

    re .-1
    The Want Advertiser (Want Ad, for short) is a good source.

    re.-1
    I'm a faithful buyer of the Want Advertiser.  At this time of the
    year the "lawn/garden" section is filled with snowblowers for sale.
    Maybe in a few weeks or so we'll see more lawn mowers listed.
    
    

    re .-1
    Check the "moving" or whatever section. With so many folks fleeing
    New England, they often sell everything under the roof. I picked up
    a few pieces of outdoor equipment that way.
    
    John

    
    A lot of people who have lawnmowers for sale (like me) are waiting
    until the spring to get top dollar for them. You have to search out
    the people who have to sell now, or are still trying to sell since the
    fall.
    
    I bought my snowblower the first week of August. I bought my tractor 
    5 weeks ago, right before Christmas. You just have to keep looking,
    real hard. Try all the hometown free newspapers like the Yankee
    Shopper, etc. Check out your local newspapers, even the one you may not
    normally buy. Look for moving sales as John Fox suggests. And don't be
    afraid of the power equipment dealers. However, if you want a Deere,
    don't go to a Deere dealer, go to a Toro dealer or Snapper dealer, etc.
    They may not know what the Deere is worth. You have to check with all
    of them. I bought my used Deere from a Yanmar dealer and stole it.
    
    Good luck
    
    CdH
    

    I just came across an ad for a "TROY-BILT" mulching mower.  Has
    anyone had any experience with these mowers or manufacturer?
    I'm still a little hesitant about buying a "mulching" mower as
    oppose to the good old "bagger" model.
    
    Thanks.

    
    As for the manufacturer you can't a tiller as good as theirs. However
    they are very expensive. My father-in-law was looking at that same
    mower. I'm not convinced that they work that well, especially with when
    mowing when the grass is wet. I suppose that if you only mow the lawn
    when the grass is dry and not too high, I suppose it will work fine,
    BUUUUUTTTTTT, I don't know about you but I can't gurantee that with my
    lawn. It may be good as another mower to use when the conditions are
    right.
    
    Mike

    
    Bolens == Troy-Bilt
    
    CdH
    

    I used a Jacobsen Mulching mower for about 9 years and still keep it
    for doing leaves.  It works as advertised, in that it will recut the
    clippings into 1/2 inch sections which breakdown in the lawn without
    thatch buildup.  There seem to be two main types.  The cheaters/cheap
    owns simply close off the chute and force the clippings to be recut. 
    The Jacobsen that I have and the Bolens use a smaller second blade to
    recut the clippings.  The two blade design allows a round housing with
    the first cut pulling the clippings up and toward the center, after
    which the second blade recuts on the way down.  
    
    What I liked was that I did not have to rake my lawn ever!!!!  No
    thatch buildup!!!!  Recycled the fertilizers and other treatments
    rather than sending them to the dump.  
    
    What I did not like was that it worked best on shorter cut settings
    (the drafting worked better).  It tended to clog up when the grass was
    wet or even if the grass had absorbed a lot of water.  Also, the mower
    does not like to be pushed too fast.
    

    Does someone have a phone number for MTD. I know they make alot of 
    different brands (OEM) but most resellers are not knowledgeable about
    what options are available for them. I would like to call the
    manufacturer directly. Also, for people who have been discussing SEARS
    lawn and garden tractors in previous notes, their lower end models are
    made by Murray and the others are made by Roper. Is Murray MTD?
    
    -Andre

Andre, I have some literature for my Dayton tractor & snowblower which has an 
address only. If they're still in Cleveland, an operator could help with the #.

		MTD
		P.O. Box 36900
		5965 Grafton Rd.
		Cleveland, Ohio
				44136

Terry

        I finally got things to the point where they seeded my one acre
        lot last week. I figure that gives me a few weeks to get a mower
        to cut all of that new grass. Illinois law now prohibits lawn
        refuse from being taken to a land fill, so I either need to
        compost all the clippings, leave them lie on the lawn, or get a
        mulching mower.
        
        Neighbors have recommended something in the range of a 12 HP
        riding mower. I'd like something that I can put a snow thrower on
        in the winter, so I only need to maintain one machine. I expect to
        live here for many years, so I'm looking for a quality machine,
        not a cheapie.
        
        Should I mulch? It seems easier than hauling the clippings to the
        back of the yard, but I've heard that mulchers tend to clog. I've
        looked at several machines, but none of them have mulching
        attachments. 
        
        Should I just cut and leave the clippings on the lawn? Will this
        eventually build up and cause problems?
        
        Can anyone recommend reliable brands of mulching tractors? Dealer
        names won't help much, as I'm in the NW Chicago 'burbs, as opposed
        to the Boston area. Thanks much.
        
        Bob

Re: .61

If you have the space, you might consider composting the clippings. 
Then the grass, leaves, what-have-you will be broken down to a
soil-like material that can be distributed back onto the lawn or put in
a garden.  I'm just trying it for the first time this year, so I can't
say if it's a great solution or not, but it seems to have a lot of potential.

>>>==>PStJTT

    My approach to a lawn is benign neglect.  So was my father's.  
    It always seemed to work pretty well.  Cut the grass and don't 
    worry about it.  DON'T apply weedkillers, pesticides, etc., and
    the natural bacteria will take care of the clippings for you,
    just as they lie.  If you start trying for a putting green lawn,
    then you start causing yourself all kinds of problems.
    
    My $.02.
    
    Re: what kind of mower to get, I'd suggest an IH Case, John Deere,
    or Ariens tractor.  All of them are very good and will handle a
    snowblower.

    A mulching mower is fine as long as you have the time available to
    mow your lawn regularly as often as every four days in peak summer.
    Otherwise, the grass will become too long to mulch properly (ever
    go on vacation?) and will leave clumps on your lawn.  
    
    If you have a lawn large enough to require a 12 hp rider (3 - 4 acres?)
    you're going to have more grass clippings for compost than you know
    what to do with.  You might want to save some for mulch/compost, but
    the rest will respond nicely to the benign neglect program suggested.
    Mother Nature generally knows what she's doing, but it might be 
    necessary to tackle pest infestation from time to time.
    
    Originally, I also planned to buy a single "platform" that could be
    used for cutting grass and blowing snow.  The economics are such that
    you can buy a riding mower and a snowblower for considerably less $
    than the price of a good quality lawn/garden tractor, and you don't
    have to scr... er, fiddle with mounting/dismounting the apparatus
    every spring and fall.
    
    Happy house husbandry.
    
    PBM
    
    

The current issue of Consumer Reports reviews mulching mowers (push-type).
While the specifics of particular brands may not apply, the concepts and 
criteria for a good mulching mower probably do.  The found that the 
mulching-only mowers did a better job than the multipurpose ones, and that
having a circular housing at the business end helped (the hype about airflow
and rechopping and blowing the chopped grass back down into the lawn is 
apparently more than hype).

re: .64

If you have to mow every four days in the peak of summer, in New England,
you're either overwatering or overfertilizing or both.  Perhaps during
spring, but typical northern grasses tend to grow less in hot weather 
than in warm weather.  

   Gary

Also, the CU report showed some mulching mowers that still did a pretty
good job even if you are cutting 2" off the grass instead of the 1"
that everyone seems to recommend.  Personally, I use a compost heap,
but that's because the area of our gardens is a large fraction of the
area of our grass (and getting larger).  We actually put more leaves into 
the heap over the course of a year than we put in grass.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

I own both a garden tractor and a snowblower, and I'm glad I have both as
seperate tools than a combo.

If you have a straight driveway, with nothing of value bordering it, then a
single stage snowblower on the front of your tractor may work out fine. I have
a driveway which requires lots of turns and a long throw to clean it up. To use
a two stage blower on the tractor (BIG BUCKS!!!!) would require an awful lot
of shifting. It is easier to maneuver around a walk behind snowblower, 
especially one with a differential.

CdH

    
    
    	Hello happy mowers,
    		
    		I live in France and have a fairly big area of grass
    	to cut in the country. Until now I have been using a push type
    	power mower but it takes far too long. About a month ago I was
    	able to buy a ride on mower at the local auction room that was
    	very cheap. The motor is a Briggs and in good shape but the
    	differential is worn out.
    
    		My problen is that this is an American built machine
    	and none of the mechanics I have seen have anything like it.
    	I checked with the U.S. embassy who keep a list of all U.S.
    	companies doing business here and their local distributers but
    	it was unknown.
    
    		There is a plate on the machine inscribed
    
    
    			To obtain service or replacement
    			parts contact
    				The E.T.Rugg Co
    				Newark Ohio
    
    		Is there anybody out there in Notesland in Ohio who
   	can check the yellow pages to see if these people are still
    	in business ( nobody has mentioned the brand in this notes
    	string )? If they do exist could you let me have their full
    	address by MAIL or in here? Thanks for your time
    
    			Merci,
    				Geof.
    

    re: .68
    E.T. Rugg Co. may just be the name of the dealer who sold it
    originally, not the actual manufacturer.  Are you sure that's
    the name of the manufacturer?  I've never heard of them (which
    is no particular guarantee of anything, I realize).
    
    Is there any other writing on the machine anyplace?  

    
    
    	The only other label was a big stick-on thing at the front
    marked " SUBURBANITE " which I imagine is the model name. On the
    E.T.Rugg label it was also marked " Model 5037 " so it seems like
    they made it.
    	I'll have another good look all over the machine when I go down
    to the country this weekend. Thanks for the rapid reply.
    				Geof.
    

Geof, I called information in Ohio and the operator told me that they were no
longer in Newark. I guess this means that they are out of business, have moved 
to a different part of the country, or just changed their name; your quess is 
as good as mine.

Sorry,
	Terry

    Does it look as though the differential is made up of standard parts,
    or does it look as though it's entirely a custom proposition?  I
    would guess that at least some of the parts are standard (assuming
    one lives in the USA!) and are obtainable "anyplace."  Can you 
    give us a better idea of exactly what is wrong, what is worn out,
    etc.?  

    
    	Well I'll try and describe it as best I can. There is a chain
    drive from the motor to a large ( about 5 inch ) gear wheel: no
    problems with this bit. Inside this wheel are two cone shaped cogs
    which engage the cone shaped cogs on the two halves of the rear
    axle: this is where the problem is as the teeth are worn and barely
    make contact. In reverse they just manage to grip but in forward
    they slip over each other.
    	Friends have told me that a mechanic might be able to either
    build up the teeth a bit or grind them down to a good shape then
    grind out a little on the axle cogs to make a new, tight fit between
    them and the centre chain driven wheel. It could work but a new
    part would have been the ideal solution.
    				
                                Geof.
    ps: I just spent ten minutes trying to draw the thing but couldn't
        understand the finished result myself. Ah the limitations of
        electronic conversations.
    
                              
          

    You call them "cone shaped cogs."  Are they bevel gears?
    That's the classic cheap way to make a differential.  If
    they are bevel gears, they are probably standard and
    replacable.  Note that they will be to some inch standard,
    not a metric standard, so you might have trouble tracking
    them down in France.  If you need to replace all four of
    them, you could just get some roughly equivalent
    metric ones and use them.  The only thing that might need
    to be done is modify the bore diameters.  Any competent
    machinist could probably do that for you.
    
    What's your mailstop?  I can send you copies of relevant pages
    about bevel gears out of the Boston Gear catalog, if you want.
    Give me the outside diameter and number of teeth, so I can get
    some idea what size they are.

I was at Building 19-1/6 in Manchester, NH, yesterday, and they were selling
ride-on lawn mowers for $79.95, your choice of red or gray.  This mower had
a unique feature - you can exercise while mowing your lawn.  The mower was
lightweight, and easy to maneuver, with variable speed and chain drive.  What's
even better, is that it is quiet and safe for the environment!  The engine is -
you - pedalling a bicycle that's been transformed into a riding mower!  Turning
the pedals causes the rotary blade to spin and a reduction drive powers the
rear tricycle-style wheels.  The cut grass is ejected to the rear.  The
mower deck was rather small, though, about 18 inches or so.

				Steve

    
    I'm looking to rent one of those Cycle-Bar mowers.
    
    There a section of my property that has some grass/weeds
    about 4-feet
    tall that needs to be mowed....There aren't any small trees or
    or anything to mow down..
    
    I have rented those blade mower things but I'm not impressed
    with how well they cut..the weeds get caught in the belts..then
    belts burn up..and the blades get bogged down..
    
    So is anyone know where I can rent a cycle-bar mowers in the 
    Leominster, chelmsford, lowell area etc..I would appreciate it.
    
    Thanks                                         
    
    Ken
    

    
    re .75
    
    Thats some pretty hefty gearing. It would probably work on a level
    lawn, but I don't think you would be able to make it up any type of
    grade.
    
    Mike

Re: .76

The bit I played with it showed that there was significant reduction in
the gearing to the drive.  However, I'd agree that it wouldn't be suitable
for hills.  In fact, I'm hard pressed to imagine under what conditions it 
would work well.  I thought the thing was a joke, along the lines of another
product they had called "The Perfect Gentleman" which purported to
automate the raising and lowering of a toilet seat.  But it did seem like
an interesting idea.

			Steve

    re: .76
    
    Shoot; just go down the hill!

When I went to school,  had to walk through 2 feet of
snow - uphill - both ways - so I'm sure somebody's
backyard is downhill - both ways. I mean, everything
evens out in the end, doesn't it?

It IS possible to mow a lawn going downhill at all times.  Of course your lawn
has to be a hill and you have to start at the top (walk the mower up for you
knee-jerk guys that want to say - but that's uphill, then mount and ride) and 
mow in a down and outward spiral until the whole lawn is done.  ;-)

Stan

Yes, but you don't get any exercise that way (other than walking the mower
up the hill...)

I wonder if Consumer Reports has looked at this thing.  At least it has
a proper safety feature - if you fall off, it stops.

			Steve

    It takes a heck of a long time to mow a lawn with this.  But heck
    you wanted exercise didn't you?
    
    ed

    If you put a decent weighted fly wheel it'd work pretty good I'd
    imagine (once you got it going).  I'd love to see one in action with
    the sweet dripping off the poor bastard behind the wheel.
    
    I'll take 2.
    
    Steve............................

Just out of curiosity, does anyone actually use the high-priced,
specially made for lawnmowers oil?  I think Sears charges $2.99/qt for
theirs, while ADAP had
some Sunoco brand at $1.74/qt.  Neither had the SD/.../SG rating suggested
by B&S for my brand new toy.  I stuck with a bottle of Castrol 30W.

The lawnmower oils seem like a good way for the oil companies to take money
from unsuspecting consumers.

   Gary

Last weekend I picked up Kendall 30W oil at Spag's for $1.24 for my 
Toro lawnmower. The Toro manual says 30W should be used, but multigrade
can be used if 30W "is not available". The Kendall 30W has the SD/../SG
rating.
I am going to change the lawnmower oil for the first time (mower is new),
so I haven't any experiences to share.

/Date

    re.0
    Do you mean a sickel bar? The type that look like  hedge shears on
    steroids?
    
    -j

    
    
    RE:.1  YES...I thought I spelled it wrong!...Do you know where I can
    rent one?.
    
    Thanks
    
    Ken
    

Actually, it's "sickle", according to my dictionary.

Have you tried a local Taylor Rental or similar place?  I don't know
that they have them, but I certainly wouldn't be surprised if they did.

   Gary

    
    
    
    RE:.4  I have called one local place..I live in Ayer and they don't
    have one...I was jsut trying to see if anyone knew of a place to save
    me time of calling around..
    
    Thanks
    
    Ken
    

    
    
    Found one...Tony's Repair in Harvard Mass.  $30 for a 1/2 day.
    
    

    re.3
    You're right the proof reader has been ordered shot.
    
    -j

>    You're right the proof reader has been ordered shot.

Comrade Gort:

Haven't you heard?  It's time to get rid of your hammer and sickle bar.

	The last year or so I've been having trouble with starting my
	lawn mower if I've stopped it in the middle of a job (like getting
	called to the phone).  The mower is a 6 year old $99 brand 'X' 21"
	(or so) rotary with a Briggs & Stratton 4-cycle engine. Although
	it's 6 years old it hasn't seen that much service because I live
	on a small city lot, 1/6 acre which includes the area occupied by the
	house, driveway, patio, etc., plus there's been a 4-5 year drought
	here in California such that I let the back yard die each summer
	(since to keep it alive puts me over my water allotment and hence
	triples the water bill and invites the threat of getting a flow
	restrictor slapped on the water service).  Or, to put it another
	way, I doubt that I've run more than 10-12 gallons of gasoline total
	through the thing in the past 6 years.  Each year I touch up the
	blade with a file and change the oil and clean the air filter . . .
	it holds about a pint of oil and between changes I don't add more
	than 2 or 3 ounces, if that, to keep the oil level up.  I run 92
	octane super unleaded through it (rationale being use the best since
	a gallon or two is enough for a whole year, besides, the manual says
	any gas suitable for a car is OK).  Anyways, the thing always starts
	fine at the beginning of a job (when it hasn't been used for a few
	days/couple of weeks) or even after a long rest (like a couple of
	hours or so) . . . I usually give the starter rope a couple of long
	slow pulls to 'prime' it and it often starts on one of these gentle
	priming pulls.  The problem is that halfway through a job, if I stop
	it, then it's often really hard to start again.  The thing I've dis-
	covered is that if I pop out the spark plug and wisk it over a wire
	brush a few times then it'll start again real easy.  The plug looks
	carbon-fouled, i.e. black; I wouldn't say it's oil-fouled because I
	use so little oil and the plug isn't wet or greasy.  So, I guess what
	I'm asking is do I need a new plug, despite the 'low mileage', or are
	these symptoms more indicative of a more sinister engine problem in
	development or what?  I don't quite understand it since I would expect
	that a cold start would be the tough one, not a start when it's all
	warmed up, plus the grand total wear and tear on it amounts to what
	some of you folks probably do in a couple of weeks.  It's getting to
	be a drag to mow since I know that maybe 3 out of 4 times I'll have to
	clean the plug in the middle of the job if the mower is stopped, which
	is ridiculous since it only takes maybe 15 minutes max to do the whole
	yard.  Again, it always starts right up after a good 'rest', and it
	worked just fine without any qualification whatsoever for a good 4-5
	years.  And, to forstall any wisecracks about having a power mower for
	such a small lot, well, I shopped around and didn't find any hand
	mowers for less than $79 that weren't junk so I went with the $99 gas
	jobber which, except for this problem has been 100% satisfactorily.
								Thanks, Bill.
    

    
    Your symptons sound like a vapor lock. When you turn the engine off,
    it's still hot, and I'll bet the muffler is right next to the carb. You
    might be able to put some kind of shield between the carb and muffler,
    or get a different kind of muffler.
    
    Mike

	re .140 

	    I can't remember if it was the chain saw or the lawn mower but
	the directions to one of them said not to use high octane gasolines.
	I don't understand how this could adversely effect the engine, but
	it would be an easy change on your part.  

					Tim

    re:- May be on to something. Hi octane resists burning.
       
         Replace the plug is the first thing. There cheap enough.
         If it still persistant on not starting when hot, check;
         Is the plug wet when removed? Rich condition.
         Is the plug bone dry? Lean condition or vapor lock.
    
         Is it a manual choke? Check to see if by pushing the throttle
         cable full, that the choke is closed. If so, it's manual
         and if it's a lean condition, it should start with choke closed.
         If is a manual choke, but by pushing the throttle cable forward
         full, the choke is not fully closed, adjust your cable for fully
         closed choke at full throttle. Now try it.     
    
         If it still won't start with the choke closed, try priming it with 
         a bit of gas or WD40. If it starts your lean and a carb adjustment is
         needed. If it still won't start, and plug is wet, your rich or a
         weak spark from worn points, or bad condensor. Replace them, again
         cheap, but you will need a wheel puller to get the flywheel off.
    
         Dave'
    
    

    My lawnmower (Sears) manual specifically states NOT to use hi-octane
    gas.  87 octane detonates quicker than 92/93 "super", and using the
    super is probably why the hard [warm] starts.  I 2nd the recommendation
    to switch to "regular"...
    
    John
    

    Aslo check to see that the vent on the gas cap is not clogged.
    
    As you use the gas in the tank, you would be creating a vacuum inside
    the tank if the vent is not working correctly. Next time it wont start
    simply take the gas cap off to relieve the pressure, put it back on and
    try to start.  ASk me how long it took me to find this out! It's a long
    story. 

    re: Hard hot starts...
    
    I second the reply by GIAMEM::RIDGE (.145) The venting system can
    create a vaccuum and make it very hard to suck the fuel properly.  Also
    with the high octane stuff, it's hard on the smaller engines.
    
    The only problem is that regular gas is no longer available in CA. 
    It's all unleaded now, and what a pain that is when you have a
    car/lawnmower that need lead.  
    
    Regular unleaded should work fine in your mower.  Pour the 'super'
    stuff in your car's tank and fill up the mower with regular unleaded
    and see if that doesn't help.
    
    Patrick			Long_Live_`66_Mustangs!!!
    

Since this seems to be the lawn-mower maintenance note, here's
my question.
I have a Sears Eager-1 lawnmower that's about 10 years old.
It's extremely reliable and very low maintenance.  It's self-propelled
and to engage the front wheels you push a lever that pulls a cable
that's connected to an arm that leads into a gearbox.  I'm guessing
that inside the gearbox some teeth come together and engage the
front axle.  This works just fine.  When you let off of the gas for 
a moment it's supposed to disengage the wheels.  It doesn't.  The
handle flies forward like it's supposed to, but the wheels keep
turning.  I figure there's two likely answers.  One is, the spring
that pulls the arm back on the outside of the gearbox is tired and
just isn't pulling back far enough any more.  It does look rusty but
not that bad.  The other is that something inside the gearbox is out
of whack.
Anybody else run into this?
Thanks,
John

    Your clutch may need adjustment. Turn the lawnmower on its side
    and under the gear box you will see the head of a long screw. I believe
    there is a spring around the body of this screw. Try backing off
    on the screw and see if the clutch will now disengage when you let
    go of the handle.
    
    Before making the adjustment, take note of the position of the head
    and then keep track of how many turns you give it, just in case
    you have to go back to the original setting.
    
    Ray

Speaking of "turn it on its side" reminded me of a problem that I have been
ignoring but need to take care of.

Last summer I turned my mower (8hp Bolens Villa) on its side to fix a belt that
had come off. I then mowed some lawn for about 5 minutes and the engine died. I
restarted OK and mowed for 5 minutes when the engine died again. This time it
wouldn't restart. The started didn't seem to have enough strength to turn the
engine.

What happened was that while the mower was on its side the oil (or most of it)
drained out. It ran down into the grass, so I didn't see it (and I wasn't
looking for it). The engine now sounds like the cylinder is full of marbles
when I apply all my strength to turn it over a bit.

My question is: how can I tie up with someone who has taken or is about to take
a small engine repair class and needs an engine to 'make right', or where can I
find such a class to take myself?

Pete

P.S.  Take care when you turn a mower on its side.

    re: .149
    
    The oil shouldn't drain out of the engine when the mower is turned
    on its side (or even upside-down) unless:
    
    		- the oil cap is missing;
    		- the oil drain plug is missing;
    		- there is a hole in the crankcase;
    		- there is a hole in the lower cylinder wall;
    		- the oil got past the piston (broken ring(s), hole/crack
    		  in piston) and ran through an open valve and into the
                  exhaust or carb
    
    
    	Anyway, that really doesn't solve your problem... :-(

    One of the engines that I have will not start. Fuel doesn't seem to
    be getting to the engine...so that I am assuming that the carb.
    is gummed up. What type of cleaning techniques do you use?
    
    Marc H.

    I just stripped mine down and cleaned it with fresh gasoline...
    
    Edd

    Before you go stripping apart your carb, check the fuel lines.
    Sometimes they get clogged up.  The next step is to drop the "bowl"
    off the bottom of the carb.  There's a small nut in the center that
    holds it up.  This will reveal the float and there's usually alot
    of gunk in the "bowl".
    
    -al

         <<< Note 1642.152 by MANTHN::EDD "It's not *Manhattan*..." >>>

    I just stripped mine down and cleaned it with fresh gasoline...
    
>>>>>Just a gentle reminder here.....Using gasoline as a 
cleaner/solvent/degunker is *_VERY_* dangerous! We have very painful and 
clear documentation in this file from a few years ago of one buy who died 
from a flash fire while using gasoline to clean up a dirt bike or similar 
vehicle.

There are many cleaners on the market that will do a good job, with less 
danger, than gasoline.....

    Vic

    I totally agree with -.1, and should have put the safety reminder in
    when I posted my reply. 
    
    There certainly are plenty of safer cleaners out there.
    
    Edd

    Just use some carb cleaner instead. What type of mower is it?
    
    Eric

    The mowers/grinders use Briggs & Stratton down and updraft Carbs.
    
    What is a good cleaner that isn't highly flammable?
    
    Marc H.

    You only need about half a cup of gas in a baking tin to clean it. 
    What's the big gas scare?  I have a dirt bike and when the carb needs
    to be cleaned it gets taken off and cleaned in a small baking tin with
    a little gas.  Just be carefull.  Like don't clean it in the blaring
    sun when it's too hot out.
    
    Steve

    re last
    
    ...or don't clean it on a very still cloudy day when the fumes will
    slowly spread out around you as you work, also don't strike *any*
    sparks as you work.
    
    Gasoline is highly flamable. If you ever manage to ignite the fumes you
    will be amazed at how far spread in only 60 seconds from even
    a half cup of gasoline. If you *insist* on cleaning with gasoline do it
    outside with a reasonable wind to disperse the fumes away from you and
    beware *any* potential source of ignition.

Diesel fuel is a good cleaner and not nearly as flammable as gasoline.

Dave

    Diesel/kerosene works well on oil...what about varnish from old gas?
    
    Marc H.

    
    You can buy carb cleaner from most GOOD autoparts stores. It comes in
    gallon cans. You soak the carb in it. It'll clean the carb up in just a
    couple of hours. Be carefull though. It's a mild acid, and will burn.
    
    Mike

    re: .158
    What's the big gas scare?  Let me tell you....
    
    This story appears elsewhere in this file someplace, but I can't
    find it.  It will bear repeating though.
    
    The son of a good friend of mine and two of his buddies were working
    on their dirt bikes in my friend's garage.  It's a two-car garage.
    The garage has a double-wide door, which was open.  There is a door
    in the back of the garage to get out into the back yard.  At the
    time of the accident, the big double-wide door in front was open.
    The door to the back yard was open.  Plenty of ventilation, right?
    
    Two of the boys were cleaning the air filters of their dirt bikes
    in a small pan of gasoline at the front of the garage, right in the
    big doorway.  A third boy was sitting in the doorway going out to
    the back yard, some 24' or so away from the front of the garage.
    He was playing with a cigarette lighter, idly flicking it.
    
    The cigarette lighter ignited the gasoline fumes from the pan of
    gasoline 24' away.  The flame flashed across the garage floor and
    ignited the pan of gasoline.  It startled the boys, and the pan
    of gasoline got tipped.  The clothes of one of the boys, saturated
    with the fumes of gasoline (the FUMES of gasoline, not necessarily
    liquid gasoline) caught on fire.  The boy was burned horribly.
    After several agonizing weeks in the hospital, he died.
    
    THAT is the big gas scare. It is treacherous, dangerous, and altogether
    a bad thing to use for cleaning anything.

A cupful of gas will move a one-ton car a couple of blocks.  How far do you
suppose it would move you?.  

    I think I remember hearing that one cup of gas equals 15 sticks of 
    dynamite in explosive power.

    O.k. ....you win.  No more gas cleaner for this "wanting to live a long
    unburned life" DIY'r.....
    
    While we're on the subject of mowers and safety...  What's the best way
    to store my mower inside my basement?  I don't have and can't afford an
    outside shed yet.  The tank is usually mostly empty when I'm done
    cutting for the day and it sits about 7 feet away from the furnace in
    my basement.  Probably _not_ a good idea?  I have the best/safest gas can 
    in the business of gas cans.  Should I drain the small amount of gas
    that might be left after mowing into this tank or is a tiny amount of
    gas in the mower o.k.???
    
    Steve

    	I'm not sure about this at all but hey...that never made a
    difference before ;-)
    
    	I don't think the small amout of gas left in the tank is a hazard. 
    Or at least it is much less of a hazard.  The gas is in a sealed
    container and there are no free fumes to worry about.  You could always
    get a tarp and leave the mower outside under cover.
    
    George

    Re: .165
    
    Gas is eight times more powerful than dynamite by weight.
    
    Marc H.

    Re: .166
    
    For inside storage, you need to completly drain the tank and carb
    bowel. Pain in the #ss for once a week.
    
    

    
    	I have a Craftsman 20" rear bagger Eager-1 push mower.  This
    spring it's not running too good.  So, I changed the plug, air filter,
    oil and took out all the old gas(including the little bit in the
    cylindrical cup under the throttle--part of the carberator??).
    
    Anyhow, the symptom persists....  What it is is a surging of the
    engine...ie/ not a constant brrrrrrrrr.... more like Bbbrrr  Bbbrrrr
    Bbbrrr...kinda hard to explain in a note.  Also, it takes a long time
    to start... it sounds like its started,.. then dies.
    
    Actually, after changing the plug, air filter, and -->>cleaning the gas
    pan(whatever it's called)<<-- it wouldn't barely start at all.   I
    thought that maybe, just maybe, the "gas cup" was screwed on TOO tight
    and needs some room for the "float?" inside.  Anyhow, when I loosened
    it a little,.. at least the lawnmower started but still the Bbbrrr
    Bbbrrr Bbbrrrr surging.
    
    Guess the question is:  Could it just be the float inside that gas
    cyclinder or is there a gas mixture adjustment on this lawnmower?  I
    don't have the user manual since we got it second hand.
    
    thanks for your help!
    
    regards,
    	-John

    
    re .165
    
    That's a awfull lot of explosive power. One stick of dynamite will blow
    up your house. I doubt that a cup of gas will.
    
    Mike

    RE:.170
    
    The engine is surging due to a lean condition. The high speed mixure
    adjustment should be a needle valve at the bottom or the float bowl, or
    cup you refered to. Turn it out approx 1/8-1/4 turn counter clock wise
    and it should calm down, aspecially in gear with the mower deck
    engaged.
    
    If there is no adjustment there, which there may not be, depending on 
    model and year, you could increase the idle mixure screw approx the
    same as the high idle screw...don't adjust both!  Don't know where the
    idle mixure screw is, but should be counter-sunk in the carb body.
    
    Dave'

    Ditto the needle valve diagnosis. It's VERY easy to dislodge the valve
    on the Eager 1 carb when you remove the float bowl.
    
    Remove the 2 intake manifold bolts. This will allow you to *gently*
    flip the carb over and remove the bowl. The needle valve is attached to
    the floats by a very thin wire. Make sure no grass or other foreign 
    objects hinder the action of the floats or the valve.
    
    Edd

    re .171
    
    A cup of liquid gas will not explode. The *vapors* from an entire cup
    of gas could blow up your house if the proper concentration and air mix
    was achieved.

    re.158
    A half cup of gas mixed with air has the explosive potential of a stick
    of dynamite big cause for concern in my opinion. 
    
    NEVER NEVER USE GASOLINE AS A SOLVENT!
    
    I have a degree in fire science and have personaly witnessed
    demonstrations of just how dangerous even a tiny amount of gasoline
    can be. If two drops properly mixed with air can send a 5 gallon bucket
    100 feet in the air a half cup would obviously do much more.
    When I was on the department we did this demo several times at schools
    and for gas station workers each demo gave new respect to those that
    were present. Please donot ask me how to try this experiment we used
    special equipment and controlled conditions.
    
    -jerry
    
    
    

    Gas in a gas tank is for the most part quite safe as the gas fumes are
    concentrated beyond the point of ignition.
    
    -j(catching up)
    
    

    re: .176
    By chance do you happen to know the maximum/minimum air/gas ratios that
    are explosive?
    

    Hooboy, an atomizer full of gas, a zippo lighter, and we can make
    fuel-air explosives to rival those used in Desert Storm. That'll keep
    those damn garden critters at bay...
    
    :-)
    
    q

re .177:

About 1.8%-7.2% gasoline vapor by volume.

-Mike

    re: .179
    Well, it doesn't have anywhere near as wide an explosive range as
    acetylene then, but small comfort if you're in the 1.8-7.2% range....

    re. last few
    Yup .179 has it right it is not that wide a range nothing like
    acetylene as Steve points out. If I recall correctly acetylene
    is explosive from just a few percent to near saturation levels.
    
    
    -j

re .181:

When I looked up the gasoline figure I noticed that the range for acetylene
was something like 2.5%-100%.  In other words, acetylene decomposes
exothermicly all by itself - no oxygen needed.  This is one reason why
acetylene torches get so hot, you don't just get the energy from burning,
you also get energy from decomposing the (rather unstable) acetylene
molecule.

This is also why acetylene tanks are low pressure unlike oxygen tanks at
around 2000 psi.  The more you compress acetylene, the touchier it gets.

-Mike

    re.182
    FWIW- I don't think they actually compress acetylene but rather disolve
    it into acetone. Also the inside of an acetylene bottle is lined with a
    porous "stone" like substance to futher its stability.
    The discovery of acetylene was by pure accident as a result of an
    experiment that went sour the experiment byproduct (calcium carbide)
    was dumped outside the factory an assumed  total loss. The discovery came
    after a rain storm when a men taking a break decided to have a smoke
    (can you say BOOM?) while walking thru the days "failed experiment"
    the rest is history. Fun stuff!
    
    -j
    

You mean that "carbide" cannons and lanterns really run on acetylene?  No wonder
the cannons are so loud.

In college I once figured out the chemical-reaction equation for water + calcium
carbide to determine the amount of water that I'd need in a 5-gal can to produce
the optimum amount of gas for the oxygen available.  I was going to set it off
remotely with a spark plug.  I'm glad now that I never got around to it.  I was
only seeking a lot of noise, but ...

    re.184
    >>a lot of noise.
    
    I think you would have gotten what you wanted. 8^)
    
    -j

I'd like to see if anyone has any specific comments on the following
lawn tractors.  I've read all the notes in here and still can't decide
what I want to do.  (I've also read Consumer's Report, but their last 
report on lawn tractors was 1989).

First off I was shocked at some of the prices!  But after getting over the 
shock, I don't think I want a $899 cheapo if it's not going to last.

Right now I'm tossed between a Troy Built (same thing as Bolens, just different
color :-) and a Sears Craftsman.

I have about 1 acre of lawn with a little bit of a hill in front (but
nothing to be concerned about).  I'd also like to use the tractor to remove
snow from the 150' driveway (with either a snow blower or blade - whichever
works better).  The driveway also has somewhat of a hill - I'm guessing
maybe a 25 degree incline at its worst...  so I might have to add extra 
weight to give it some traction uphill...

The Troy Built is 12hp hydromatic with 36" cutting deck.  With bagger total
cost of about $2300.  That includes assembly and delivery by a local dealer.

The Sears is Craftsman 12.5hp Gold hydromatic with 38" deck.  With bagger cost 
is $1700.  $30 for delivery.  Need to assemble myself.

I also considered John Deere - could get a 12hp, 5 speed with bagger for about
$2400.

The Troy Built seems better built.  But how do the engines compare?  Is the
extra $500 worth it for a TroyBuilt/Bolens?  Anyone have any experience or
thoughts on these?

Thanks,
Dan

    Dan,
    	Have you looked at Cub Cadet (International Harvester)? My dad has
    had one for 25 YEARS and it's still going strong. The only thing he's
    had to do (excluding normal maintainence...) is buy a new battery every 
    4 years or so.
    
    Roger

>    	Have you looked at Cub Cadet (International Harvester)? My dad has
>    had one for 25 YEARS and it's still going strong. The only thing he's
>    had to do (excluding normal maintainence...) is buy a new battery every 
>    4 years or so.

Not yet.  Where do they fit in the price/performance scale; or as compared
to others?

Thx,
Dan

I think we may have strayed SLIGHTLY off the original topic of lawn
mowers into the topic of lawn MOVERS.

Ed..

    The Cub Cadet was slightly less than equivalent John Deere when I
    bought mine around 15 years ago.  The newer models have been 
    somewhat "value engineered" I think, but should still be good durable
    tractors.  I haven't had any problems with mine.  My uncle had one for
    20+ years.
    
    I think the main thing to do is "buy the dealer."  Get the brand
    sold by a good, reliable local dealer who will be around to maintain
    it 10 or 15 or 20 years from now.  John Deere, Ariens, IH, are all
    good.  They'll all work and last a long time.  Note that this
    specifically rules out Sears.  Nobody wants to fix a Sears anything.  
    Troy-Bilt has good factory support and would probably be okay.
    
    BTW, I'd make hydrostatic drive a requirement; it is GREAT.  Also
    figure that you are going to amortize the cost over 20+ years so
    an extra $1000 now doesn't amount to much over 20+ years.  Especially
    if it means you will have the same tractor 20 years from now and
    won't have bought another new one after 10.

What are the respective engines?  Troy-Built is more likely than Sears
to move to a better, higher-quality engine in their more expensive
products, but that's
just a generalization which may not be true in this case.

Check out the gauge of the sheet metal.  I'm one of those people who tries to
bend corresponding points of sheet metal on various floor samples, to see
the differences.  Chances are that the construction quality of the mower
will be a bigger deciding factor than the differences between the engines.

   Gary

    I have to admit I was hesitant is buying a SEARs  riding mower. Well
    that was 7 years ago and now I love it. My neighboor bought a Ariens
    that kept breaking, Sold it and bought a John Deer, and has problems as
    well. The only problem I had was I broke a belt once, replaced the
    battery once and the blades twice.
    
    I have just over 3 acres and cut it once a week. This takes 3-4 hours.
    Lots of hills and holes in the ground where I have dug up rocks but
    forgot to fill in the hole. As you can see it get's a real work out. I
    do change the oil after each cutting season. 
    
    For the money and cost savings I would definatly get another SEARs, In
    fact I am thinking about trading in my 14 and getting a 18 for next
    year. 
    
    Ken
    
    p.s. spelling don't count

Lower end Sears models are manufactured by Murray. The more 
expensive models are made by American Yard Products. AYP also 
manufacturers Monkey Ward tractors.

I'm on my 3rd year with my Murray (bought on the advice of a 
friend that sells Sears) and it's been trouble-free so far.

>                                            My neighboor bought a Ariens
>    that kept breaking, Sold it and bought a John Deer, and has problems as
>    well. 

Maybe the problem isn't the tractors....

>>>==>PStJTT

>      <<< Note 1534.90 by SALEM::DODA "On the jelly donut and Pez Diet" >>>
>
>Lower end Sears models are manufactured by Murray. The more 
>expensive models are made by American Yard Products. AYP also 
>manufacturers Monkey Ward tractors.
>
>I'm on my 3rd year with my Murray (bought on the advice of a 
>friend that sells Sears) and it's been trouble-free so far.


Daryll, What you have is an eight year tractor. Nothing wrong with that, you
will just have to buy a new one every eight years or so. If you bought a
more expensive tractor (I.E. Ariens, John Deere, Simplicity, etc), you would
have a 28 year or so tractor. It probably balances out. The more expensive
tractors cost about 3 times the cheaper units.
What makes the quality difference?  Much beefier transaxles,  much stronger
mower arbors, arbor housings, much  beefier frames and front axles (Murray's
don't even have a separate frame), better steering linkage components, and
so on. It's like comparing a Craftsman skill saw to a Porter Cable. The  Porter
Cable will cost much more, but will out work and out last the Craftsman.

    
    re .92
    
    While going to college, I worked one summer at the local VA hospital.
    We had 2 tractors...1 John Deer, and 1 Gravely. The John Deer was a
    pice of sh*t. I wouldn't last 2 weeks before it broke. The Deer was
    only 1 year old. The Gravely we had was about 10 years old, and it
    never gave us a problem. I can't tell you how many times I had to tow
    the Deer back to the Garage with the Gravely.
    
    Mike

    Just to extend the rathole (?).... We've had a Deere for 5 years, have
    mowed ( ~ acre), drug logs, hauled sand, cement in the trailer enough
    to flatten out the tires, etc.  I would guess the Deere you saw was
    either trashed or the odd lemon. We work ours hard, but take care of it
    quite well and it has returned the favor.
    
    I'd buy another..... maybe in 15 years....;-)!
    
    Lynn
    

    continuing the thought of .94:
    
    Also remember that there are John Deere TRACTORS and there are
    John Deere ride-on MOWERS.  They are not the same animal at all.
    Even among the tractors, some are no doubt better than others.
    
    I can't say anything about John Deere tractors, never having owned
    one, but as I've already said I have a Cub Cadet with hydrostatic
    drive that for 15 years or so has been totally indestructible.  A
    friend of mine has what is pretty much the same model Cub Cadet 
    except with gear drive, and he has had a continual problem of breaking
    motor mounts.  ("Continual" = once every three or four years).
    They got the hydrostatic model right, and the gearbox model wrong.
    Or maybe one is a later design than the other.

>          <<< Note 1534.93 by KOALA::DIAMOND "No brag, Just fact." >>>

    
  No doubt about it Mike, the Gravely is the *Cadilac* of garden tractors.
Cost is also very high. I like the rear engine layout on the Gravely, great
traction. A very rugged tractor. AS far as the Deere goes, as mentioned
previously, there are different lines (homeowner, commercial).

Ross

    
    For the home use the Deere is probably OK. But we were using these
    tractors 4 - 5 hours a day 5 days a week. And to top it off, the
    Gravely was used during each winter for snow removal. The Deere
    couldn't handle the snow in this area of the country.
    
    Mike

I just bought a used Simplicity 8 hp lawn tractor.  It's
a circa 1975 model.  It runs well and cuts well but I've got
a problem with the cutting height.  There's a threaded
upside-down "L" shaped adjustor attached to the mowing
deck.  When you turn this adjustor, the deck moves up or
down within the confines of a slot that's about 4-5 inches
long.  Problem is, I'm at the heighest possible cutting 
height and it's still too low.  I made the mistake of trying
it when it was about an inch from the highest height and
proceded to shave off all but about a half inch of grass.
If you brought it down just a little more, you wouldn't be
mowing anymore, you'd be rototilling!
I just can't believe that this is the highest I can get the
mowing deck.  If it is, then I've got a used lawn tractor
for sale because I really don't want to cut the grass that
short.
Any ideas about this?
John

    No idea what all this looks like...but is there any possibility
    somebody took off the "L" thingie at some point and put it back 
    the wrong way up?  Or is it somehow else put together incorrectly?

RE:98 Is the front of the mower deck attached in the correct mounting holes?

              <<< Note 1534.92 by SOLVIT::THOMS "Ross 285-3151" >>>
             -< Buy quality, it usually pays off in the long run. >-

>Daryll, What you have is an eight year tractor. Nothing wrong with that, you
>will just have to buy a new one every eight years or so. If you bought a
>more expensive tractor (I.E. Ariens, John Deere, Simplicity, etc), you would
>have a 28 year or so tractor. It probably balances out. The more expensive
>tractors cost about 3 times the cheaper units.
>What makes the quality difference?  Much beefier transaxles,  much stronger
>mower arbors, arbor housings, much  beefier frames and front axles (Murray's
>don't even have a separate frame), better steering linkage components, and
>so on. It's like comparing a Craftsman skill saw to a Porter Cable. The  Porter
>Cable will cost much more, but will out work and out last the Craftsman.

Ross, I knew that when I bought it. Eight years huh? I'm trying 
for more like 10 or so, at which time, I won't be cutting the lawn 
anymore....Josh will.

Besides, if I have to buy another in 8 years, I won't complain. 
I'll still come out ahead based on what Deere wants for the same 
size.

daryll

 I'm surprised no-one has mentioned Ford yet? :-) After wearing out 2 Wheel 
Horses and having the engine fry in a Sears, (which nobody was willing to 
repair) I decided to do a bit of research then decided on the Ford line. No 
belts, no pulleys, no worries.. :-) Everything is hydraulic.

 I have a Ford 1120 16hp Diesel 4X4 hydrostatic drive with a bucket that takes 
a 48" deck mower, can take a blade, tiller, backhoe, has both a mid and rear 
PTO and will handle any other farm/garden implement you can imagine, has 
loaded tires and plain and simple is a real work horse. 

 I plow a 150' plus driveway, haul full length trees out of the woods for 
cutting with the 3 point hitch, do landscaping, etc.

 It was less expensive than the equivelent John Deer, Kubota, Yanmar, 
International Harvester and other comparable models.

 It is a step above the garden variety "lawn and garden" tractors but well  
worth the money. Amortizing it out over 20 years which is the expected life 
of the engine with proper mainentance, it figures out to $55.00 per year. 

 I figure its the last tractor I'll ever need to buy.

    
    re: .102
    
    Let's see:   $55.00 x 20 years = $1100.00
    
    Not bad for a tractor that sounds like a modified tank! 
    Are you sure this monster tractor didn't do the above calculation too!
    
    Drew
    

RE: <<< Note 1534.103 by SAHQ::MULLINS "METS in 92'" >>>
    
    
    |    Let's see:   $55.00 x 20 years = $1100.00
    
 Whoops.... I guess it did do the calculations.. And it was off by one zero 
based on an 11K figure which was the sticker price without the bucket and 
before all the discounts and rebates. This would make it a 550.00 per year
figure. :-)

 The actual cost should be $400.00 per year which is based on what I 
actually paid for it. :-) I did get it for what I considered quite a good 
price though. It was a year end left over and I got an additional rebate from 
Ford plus a dealer discount then another discount for making a large cash 
downpayment (insurance check from a fire) so I ended up paying a little less 
than 8K for it and only had to finance a tad over 2K. It booked for nearly 13K 
with the bucket.
 
 All in all for what I consider a lifetime investment plus its excellent 
utility I still think it was a real good buy. I don't feel I got gyped.

    
    Corky,
    
    So what came with the tractor at that price? The bucket? The mower
    deck? 
    
    JP
    

RE: <<< Note 1534.105 by MYCRFT::PARODI "John H. Parodi" >>>


|    So what came with the tractor at that price? The bucket? The mower
    deck? 

 John,
    
 I got the bucket, mower, had the tires loaded and got a draw bar for the 3 
point hitch, some snatch hooks, chain etc. He threw in a whole bunch of other 
goodies too. Delivery was free also.

 The mower was much more than what I needed so I sold it back to the dealer
the following year. Didn't get taken advantage of on that either. Only lost 
about 50.00 on it. I'd have to look up the original invoice to see how much 
the mower actually was as I can't exactly remember.

    I have an MTD tractor with an 11HP B&S engine.  After 4 years of
    running flawlessly it has developed a problem which I can't seem
    to correct.  The engine will run smoothly but almost die about
    every 20 seconds or so.  This problem is worst at no-load idle and
    is hardly noticeable under load (with mower running).  You can see
    the throttle move as it goes through these cycles.  So far I've
    done the following: clean air filter, replace plug, rebuild carb
    with B&S kit, drain/replace gas, adjust spring tension on throttle
    linkage, adjust valves over and over, all to no avail.  Any ideas?
    Thanks,
    Bob Larmouth
    223-2307
    Kelvin::Larmouth

    Just a guess. Could it be the idle adjustment? Sounds like it is 
    starving for gas. 
    
    Also, check the vent on the gas cap. Make sure it is not clogged.
    A clogged vent will cuase a vacuum in the tank as the gas is drained
    resulting in less flow. 
    
    Steve

    Also check the fuel lines for partial clogs.  Sometimes pieces of grass
    or leaves get into the gas tank and slow down the flow of fuel.  The
    mower runs on what's in the carbuerator and then sputters out.  If
    you then let it sit for a few minutes, then the gas eventually
    fills up the carb again.  Check the bottom of the gas tank where
    the fuel line connects.  All it takes is a small piece of a leaf to
    sit over the outlet to slow things down.
    
    -al

    Steve, thanks for the ideas.  I've tried adjusting the idle mixture
    and as I said in .107 I've replaced the needle valves.  There does
    seem to be something strange about the idle, though - like when I
    close up the needle all the way it doesn't stall.  I'll check the gas
    cap vent.
    
    Bob

    Yeah, something is wrong with the mixture.  I get this once in a
    while on my rototiller.  I've found that a dose of carburetor
    cleaner in the gas can work wonders, too.
    

There are 2 adjustment screws on most of these engines. One for startup/low 
speed idle and the other for high speed/normal running. The owners manual 
should have instructions for making these adjustments.

 Also might be worthwhile to see if there's an in-line gas filter that might 
be clogged.

    Re .112, I had checked and cleaned the gas filter previously but forgot
    to mention that.  Anyway, I played it with it some more this weekend
    and I think it may have been the idle adjustment after all -seems that
    it had to be opened up a lot more than where I had been previously
    tweaking it.  I had been paying too much attention to the high speed
    adjustment valve.  I think the adjustment procedure described in the 
    manual for the two valves was oversimplified (or I was taking it too
    literally regarding # of turns, etc.).  Once the rain stops I'll give
    it a good test to see if the idle adjustment really fixed it.  Thanks
    for the replies - they helped me refocus on the idle mixture and its
    possible contribution.

    After reading all these replies (more/less), there is still a couple 
    of questions.
    
    A few years back, I happened to live near a man who had a garden /
    lawn tractor that seemed to do everything,  including entertain his
    grandchildern. I was wondering if someone might have a clue what a 
    comparable brand would be today ?
    
    What stands out most was the rear end tiller, attached to some sort
    of a PTO. When roto-tillng, he could control the depth of the tilling
    with one hand, and steer with the other. In addition to the tilt
    trailer and mower attachement; he also had a blower attachment for
    the winter; however, for particularly deep and wet snow he'd get
    someone with a plow to come in.
    
    Also his yard was flat, and the yard tractor was red and cream
    colored. I thought it was a Sears (Craftsman) (this was over 7 years
    ago, too, that I saw this in operation).
    
    For myself, I have a 'hilly' property (my neighbors 12 hp would get 
    bogged down on the hills with his 97 pound son driving it) .. but it's
    only hilly in a few spots.
    
    In addition to mowing and picking up the grass clippings for
    muclhing; I want it to rototill, and possibly plow. Right now my
    winbter plowing contractor cost me less than $100 a year peak, with
    $50 more like the average over the last 7 years.
    
    Is there a  Leaf Vacuum available for some of these ? The front
    bucket for landscaping / moving stuff around sounds good.
    
    HOw does the 'used cost' of these 'lawn tractors' compare to new
    prices, and do part remain available over time ?
    
    I did manager to pick up an old 5 hp Simplicity front roto-tiller,
    which is great .. but I need attachments and stuff to last me and
    my family into the years where arthritis and bursitis would interfere
    with most hand-held yard equipment.

    Bob
        
    
    
    
    

    I expect most of the lawn tractor manufacturers offer something
    similar for rototilling; John Deere, Ariens, and International Harvester 
    certainly do.  Red/cream sounds like it might have been a Simplicity.
    
    I find that my 12hp IH has plenty of pep for mowing my rather hilly
    yard.  My uncle used his 12hp IH with a rear-mounted rototiller and
    front-mounted snowblower for years, apparently successfully.  
    More power certainly wouldn't hurt though.  12hp would probably be
    rather small for a front bucket attachment (if nothing else, the
    extra weight of a larger tractor would make it more stable with a
    full bucket hanging off the front)
    

    Oh yeah - leaf vacuums.  I got one that bolts on the back of my
    tractor, with a separate motor to drive the blower.  It's made
    by E-Z-Rake or some such name; I expect they make models to fit
    most common lawn tractors.  The tractor dealers have catalogs of 
    atachments that fit their tractors, including these vacuums.  They 
    come in various sizes.  I got the smallest.  It blows into a large 
    plastic trash barrel that sits on a shelf that also hangs on the 
    back of the tractor.  Other models blow into a separate cart.  
    I got the smallest/cheapest because I figured  I could always make 
    a cart and adapt the one I got to blow into it if I ever wanted to.  
    So far I've never bothered.  The barrel fills up very fast and I 
    have to make lots of stops to empty it, but even so it is light 
    years ahead of hand raking.  For once a year I'll live with it.
    

>>                              he also had a blower attachment for
>>    the winter; however, for particularly deep and wet snow he'd get
>>    someone with a plow to come in.
    
    This is weird. When ever the show was too high for the plow, we'd get
    out the gravely with the showblower attachment. It could go slow, and
    virtually punch it's way through anything. I used that thing to punch
    it's way through a 8' snow drift. The Plow couldn't handle it. The only
    piece of equipment better then the Gravely for snow removal was the
    Case miniloader.
    
>>    Also his yard was flat, and the yard tractor was red and cream
>>    colored. I thought it was a Sears (Craftsman) (this was over 7 years
>>    ago, too, that I saw this in operation).
    
    It could be Gravely. They were Red and Cream.
    
    Mike
    

    
    Re: leaf raking
    
    The clippings/bagging mower attachment on my tractor does a dandy job
    of raking leaves -- it chops them fine enough for use as mulch or
    compost. 
    
    And Spouse really likes to use grass clippings as garden mulch to keep
    the weeds down. She likes it so much that she hardly ever yells about
    the price of the tractor anymore...
    
    JP

    Well, my lawnmower's instruction book says to wait until the engine
    cools before restarting it - but I don't know ANYONE who does that if
    they can help it since it prolongs their least-favorite household chore
    that much longer.  Mine burns the same (regular unleaded) gasoline that
    my car uses, and it starts just fine when it is hot so long as I don't
    engage the choke.
    
    /Charlotte

    The Owners Manual for my sears mower, says specifically to NOT use high
    Octane fuel.
    
    q
    

All high octane does is resist detonation due to high compression.  Difficulty
starting when warm is due to a high vapor pressure which is unrelated to
octane.

			Steve

    My generic brand mower is supposed to use leaded fuel. I use unleaded.
    It is supposed to have oil and gas drained at end of each season. I
    don't. I dunno about hot/cold starts. Mine works when I pull the rope,
    hot or cold (one-half pull when hot, 3 or 4 when cold). It's 10 or so
    years old. 3.5 hp Briggs and Stratton engine. Burns less than a quart 
    of oil per year for 15 or so mowings. Still using original spark plug.
    
    Some machines are finicky. Maybe I'm lucky. Others' mileage obviously
    varies.

    re .191
    
    If you're putting in near a quart of oil every year, then you are
    changing it yearly. They only hold about 1/2 quart.
    
    Mike

    
    		Now I've done it.  When I replaced the spark plug in 
    	the Ariens this spring, either I misthreaded it (nah, not me) or
    	it had a faulty thread.  Whatever, after removing it last night
    	when I attempted to re-install it, it just kept spinning.
    
    		I knew right away what had happened, sure enough, 
    	the threads in the block  (spark plug opening) are done.  Nice
    	little slivers of steel.
    
    		Anyone have any experience with this sort of thing?  
    	Can the hole be tapped and a threaded insert installed?  I've 
    	heard stories of this happening, but never paid any attention to
    	remedy.  Maybe look around for a used block instead...
    
    		-Ian

    
    
     re stripped spark plug hole: Same thing happened to my Ford Escort
    engine. The plug actually blew out while I was driving. The garage was
    able to insert some type of "sleeve" into the stripped hole and a new
    plug was put in.
    
     Bob
    

    This can easily be fixed with a "HELI_COIL" coil insert. These
    are threaded inserts that are specially made for this application.
    I had the same problem with my snow blower. I removed the head plate
    with the stripped plug hole and gave it to Moscarello's Power
    Equip in Maynard. They did the helicoil for $7.50 (cheaper than I
    could buy the tool for) and another couple bucks for a new head
    gasket. Hasd worked fine ever since.

    
    	Whew, thats a relief.  As soon as I knew it was stripped, all I
    could imagine was a smiling mechanic shaking his head and rubbing his
    wallet.  You can probably tell I have limited small engine experience, 
    is it tough removing the head?  Does it even have to be removed?  I
    guess its quite possible some of the stripped thread slivers may have
    gone into the cylinder, that would be nice, scored cylinder walls.
    
    	Maybe I'll let the shop do it anyway knowing now that such a
    device exists to fix the problem.  
    
    	Thanks for the input,
    
    		-Ian

    Removing the head isn't that hard.  There's probably 10 or so bolts
    that hold it on.  Unfortunately they are usually covered up by some
    other engine component like the fuel tank, the starter rope, etc. so
    you have to get all those pieces out of the way.  Do NOT start the
    engine before you get those metal slivers out of there or you'll be
    asking for trouble.
    
    The hard part would probably be putting the head back on.  You need
    a new head gasket and you need to torque those bolts back on.  You
    also need to change the oil fairly soon after opening the head since
    other contaminants may have gotten into the cylinder while it was
    open and are now picked up in the oil.
    
    -al

    I had a similar problem in a toyota. I had a 9/16 tap run down the
    hole. The tap was able to re-form the damaged threads. Cheap fix.
    
    I don't know if you have a old type spark plug, or the newer type.
    I would try tapping the hole first though.
    
    Marc H.

    
    		I just called a shop and got a price of $15 (CDN) to fix
    the head.  They said they do it with the head removed, although he 
    has done it without removing it...didn't recommend it though.  
    The way things are going I'm just going to drop the whole machine off
    and let him take the head apart.  He said I'll be looking at ~ 1 hour
    shop charge (probably less than 50 bucks) if he does the whole thing.
    
    		I'm starting to accept the phenomenom that occurs when I
    attempt to repair engines myself.  Anyone else notice that when
    you go to fix something 3 other things end up breaking as a result?
    My luck I'd snap a head bolt...
    
    		As for the spark plug Marc, it was a new Champion J8C this
    year.  I'm sort of suspect of its threads so will install a new one
    after the work.
    
    		Thanks
    
    			-Ian

    > My luck I'd snap a head bolt...
    
    Nah, too easy. Murphy's third corallary states you will simply round
    the edges off. This will be the only bolt surrounded 360 degrees by
    cooling fins...
    
    Edd

    
    	Ya, those lovely cooling fins, lost lotsa knuckle skin over the
    years with those puppies...
    
    	Its been more than once I've been tempted to put some machine out
    of my misery with the ol' Winchester...
    
    		-Ian

	    A spark plug on my wife's Baretta popped out while she was 
	driving it.  The plug had been in there for about a year.  My 
	father happens to have a Helicoil spark plug repair kit (Not
	Cheap!)  I fixed that hole in less than 15 minutes.  It took 
	that long because I was extra careful.
	    I was not about to remove the head on this car.  I found
	out you smother the tapping tool in heavy grease.  The grease 
	traps the shavings before they can drop into the cylinder...
	and kill your compression (or worse).  For added security,
	you could turn the engine over a few times to try to blow out
	any little bits that may have dropped into the engine.
	    THE rule of tapping!!!  1/4 turn CW, 1/2 turn CCW.  The
	Helicoil is made of high grade stainless steel and looks like
	a spring (it is, more or less).  It becomes compressed when
	inserted into the hole and is much stronger than the aluminum
	hole it is repairing.  Do not accept cheapo imitations!

					Tim

 This was a very common problem with the old VW Beetles with their aluminum
block. I took mine in and the mechanic enlarged the hole with a reamer packed
with wheel bearing grease. Then rethreaded the hole to accomodate a threaded
insert that was certer drilled and taped to accomodate the plug. This was
all done blindly by the mechanic since you can't see the plug holes on the
beetle without removing the engine. 
  If this could be done on the beetle without seeing the hole or removing the
engine, it can certainly be done without removing the head on any small engine.

    Phil

    
    re .203
    
    Sparkplug's go in the heads, not the block.
    
    Mike

    Although this isn't quite a lawnmower, it's the same
    technology...

    I have a 3hp Brigg&Stratton engine that won't develop any
    power.  It starts great, and runs great with no load.  As
    soon as load is applied, it just dies.  It just has no power.
    The governor seems to be working correctly -- it has the
    throttle pulled wide open, as the engine slows.  I've taken
    the gas tank and carburetor off twice looking for junk.
    I blew air through the jets, as well as carb cleaner.  It
    seems clear.

    It's a vacu-jet carburetor -- it has only a low speed mixture
    adjustment.  There is no float, intake vacuum pulls gas up
    from the tank and through what would normally be the main
    jet.  I've also replaced the spark plug, with no difference.

    This is on an irrigation pump.  It worked fine last year.
    I drained the gas in the fall, and put oil in the cylinder.
    This problem appeared this spring when I first tried to use
    the engine.  I have the B&S service manual, but it doesn't
    have a moron chapter -- you know step 1) is there gas in 
    the tank...

    Any advice appreciated.

    Thanks.

    	- Lee

    
    
     Its not getting enough gas. Any filter? Is the valve open all
    the way. Is the gas line pinched?
    
    BAL

    Is it surging with no load on it?
    Is it a mual or auto choke?
    I also believe it's to do with gas flow.
    Also check the head for tightness or blown head gasket.
    
    Dave'
    

	Lee,

	Sounds like a blown seal in the main bearing.  To replace the
	seal is a big job.  You have to basically take the whole engine
	apart.  I have a mini-snowmobile (Kitty Kat) with an 8-HP engine
	that developed the same symptoms.  I was confused at first because
	there was compression at the top of the head.  However, with a blown
	seal there was no vacuum being formed to pull gas into the intake port
	to fire.  The parts aren't much (maybe $40 in all) but it's a lot of
	work to fix it.

	Chuck

    re: .208
    Are you talking about a 2-cycle engine on the snowmobile?  I assume
    the B&S is a 4-cycle.
    

    Thanks for the advice so far.  It is a four-stroke engine.
    The carburetor is mounted on top of the tank.  There is no
    fuel line or filter.  A small brass tube is screwed into the
    bottom of the carburetor, and sticks down to the bottom of
    the tank.  It has a screen over the opening.

    When you look at this thing, you think this is so simple, it
    HAS to work.

    I noticed that another engine I have has the same carburetor.
    I'm going to try switching them, to see what happens.  (As if
    I don't know -- neither will work, ever again.)

    	- Lee

>    re: .208
>    Are you talking about a 2-cycle engine on the snowmobile?  I assume
>    the B&S is a 4-cycle.
 
	Oops.  Yes, I'm talking about a 2-stroke.  Sorry 'bout that.   

RE: .210

 Rings might have rusted to the piston over the winter. Check the compression
before you go to all the work of swapping carbs.

 Marvel Mystery oil squirted into the spark plug hole and left to sit for a 
couple days might free up the rings if thats what it is and they're not rusted 
into the grooves too tightly.

 Regular motor oil used for long term storage doesn't inhibit rust.

    
    Let me tell ya bout a story bout a mower named Honda....
    
    Re: .52 "The one's (height adjusters) on the Honda look very heavy duty." 
    
      NOT....
    
     I've go through 2 height adjusters in 5 years and will need more.
    
    re: .54 "I haven't had anything go wrong with my Honda in two years."
    
      Oh ya, just wait.
    
      So far for 5 years of ownership I've done the following.
    
      o  2 height adjusters (made of cheap spring steel, snap easily)
       
      o  1 blade clutch cable ( replaced after it kept seizing)
    
      o  1 blade holddown bolt (overtorqued at factory)
    
      o  have to sharpen the blade once a month. (won't hold an edge)
    
      o  Oil drain plug designed by moron.
    
      o  wheels squeek (need oil), parts expensive
    
      o  cost too much to begin with.
    
    
      This is not a NO maintanence mower. For what is cost, it should be
      better.  But when I bought it, there wasn't (and probably still isn't)
      anything close. So what can you do? 
    
      BTW: its a 214SX HR
    
      maybe after I get the turbo installed.....
    
      DC
    

    
    I bought a new mower 3 years ago. I looked at the Honda's since we own
    a Honda Accord, and it's given us 5 years of trouble free service. But
    the amount they wanted was absurb. I ended up buying a Sears with a
    rear bagger. I bought this to replace my other Sears mower which broke
    after 15 years of service. I would have kept this one if the parts to
    fix wasn't the cost of a new mower. And all during that time, I never
    did any maintenance except replace sparkplug, and drain the oil yearly.
    And twice a year I'd sharpen the blade. In order for the Honda to be
    as cost effictive as the Sears, it would have to last about 40 years of
    0 - little maintenance.
    
    Mike

Re: .213

I have the exact same model as you, and have had no problems in four years.
(I'll agree the oil drain plug location was designed by morons, but there
seem to be few which weren't).

As for blades, I think it's normal to have to sharpen them several times
a season, from what I've read.

			Steve

    
    
    .....Sharpen blades???? Huaaaaa!          
    
    
    
                                            
                                        

I must admit, I was rather amazed at how much a mower's performance improves
when the blades are sharp, especially when using "mulching mode", as I often
do.  It's easy to sharpen them yourself, or you can have a local shop do it
cheap (my dealer charges $4.50).

				Steve

    
    
      Sharp blades keep your lawn green. Worn blades don't cut they
    tear the grass leaving nice dead brown tops.
    
    BAL

    Well, I looked over the market and recently ended up with the 
    new Honda Harmony mulching mower/convertible.  (bought at Hammar in
    Nashua)
    
    It's a dream to run.  I hope (don't see why not) that maintance will 
    be minimal.  And the theory is that the plastic deck will outlast
    metal ones (steel rusts, aluminum corrodes... Lawn Boy makes a (oops
    forgot..?mangesium deck!).
    
    If I had it to do over, I'd seriously consider the Murray 5HP
    self-propelled.   It's a rear bagger that can be a converted.
    It has most of the features I was looking for considerably cheaper.
    
    	my 2 cents
    	Dave.

    > If I had to do it over...
    
    
    I just have to ask; If the Murray seems to be the better deal, why did
    you buy the Honda? 
    
    Edd

    
    	i have a 21" lawn boy mower. i'm looking for a blade that can
    also detaches the lawn. does anyone know where i can get one? i live
    in n.h.
    
    	thanks in advance, vic

You can get the cheap dethatching blades anywhere.  I got mine at Bradlees. 
They look like a short mower blade with 2 wire spring tines to stir up the 
grass.  Depending on the size of your lawn they are good for a couple 
dethatchings then the springs break.  Supposedly, you can just buy a new 
set of springs.  HAH!  All they ever have is new blades for about $6.

Sorry, pet peeve there.  Just like the Jap beetle traps where you can 
replace the bait.

	New traps (trap, bait, 3 bags)	on sale at Caldor	- $3.99
	Bait							- $4.99
	3 bags							- $2.49

Go figure.  I buy new traps every year on sale and through the old ones out!

Stan

<<< Note 1642.220 by MANTHN::EDD "Turn 4 (Bang) Turn 4 (Bang)" >>>
<
<    > If I had to do it over...
<    
<    I just have to ask; If the Murray seems to be the better deal, why did
<    you buy the Honda? 

	Okay, okay, you caught me second guessing myself after the fact. 
(doesn't anyone else do this?) I bought the Honda because I was tired of
procrastinating the mower decision, my grass was still growing, and I
hadn't remembered seeing anything else that met my criteria.  Which were:

	Self propelled (rear drive), 
	mulch/bag convertible (with a reasonable deck for mulching action),
	[ie: mulching is probably the default, and it better be designed
	for it instead of an afterthought.] 
	reasonable quality

	Most of the cheapies (MTD,Murray,Rally) didn't have all the
features I wanted.  The Snapper's were as expensive as Hondas, and
obviously lesser quality.  I never seriously looked at Toro's or John
Deere's (I did do some window shopping) but judging by the Consumer's
Reports article they appeared to be competive but not quite as good. 

	I like Honda's engineering. (I drive one, my second)  So I just
broke down and paid the money.   The next day (after attacking my lawn with
my new "toy") I saw a Murray in Bradlees and did a double take.  Since then
I've seen their full line catalog, and checked the features.   You may not
find them on display (certainly harder this late in the summer) everywhere
but they are worth a look.   My Honda is still a better machine, but if you
want functions and low price is more important, look in to the high-end
Murrays. 

	FWIW: Dave.
    

    re: .221 (dethatching blade)
    
    I don't know if this would help but I've seen this thing that bolts to
    the front of any lawn-mower that is basically a row of 4 or 5" long
    tines just like a rake.  Don't know how good it would work but the
    concept seems like it would.
    
    Steve

    re.219
    The deck has always outlasted the engine on every mower I have ever
    known about fact is I've never heard of one wearing out.
    
    -j
    

    re.223
    Cheapies...
    
    
    My MTD is still running strong as ever after 10 years price is not
    always an indicator that a product is better in the case of Honda
    a good percentage of the price is the name you bought.
    
    I recently purchased 3 mowers for my lawn care business and spent
    days looking at the different makes and models. I ended up buying
    3 troybuilt mulching mowers based on quality, past experience with
    their service, price(hundreds less than a honda), serviceablilty
    and american heritage. FWIW-they also send a full illustrated parts
    breakdown,parts list and assembly manual(even though shipped fully
    assembled minus handle and wheels) something none of the others did.
    
    -j 
    

    > Never heard of (deck failing before engine)....
    
    Lemme break your record. The motor on my Sears Eager 1 still runs, but
    the deck has more sheet metal straps than original metal. Every year
    I have to add more "bodywork" to the beast to keep parts (like wheels)
    from falling off....
    
    Edd

    re-.1
    It occured to me that one possible reason I haven't ever seen one rust
    out is that I have lived in a desert climate the last umpty dozen years
    where metals don't stay wet long enough to start rusting.
    
    -j
    

    
    re. 222
    
    	H Q warehouse sells the springs for the detacher blade. i picked
    up a blade and an extra set of springs this past weekend.
    
    	vic

    Is it possible to convert a regular mower to a mulching mower?  how
    about one of the lawn tractors?  I'm getting real tired of having to
    cart off all the clippings.

Many regular mowers can be converted to mulching, usually by means of replacing
the blade with a "low lift" blade and adding a plug to the discharge outlet.
I have one I bought for my Honda HR214SX and it works well.  See your dealer
for details.

			Steve

    I don't have a mulching mower and I hardly ever rake my lawn.  I mow
    once a week or so with the mower set on it's highest setting and just
    leave the clippings on the lawn.

    re -.1
    
         Yea I used to do that until the grass eventually died from
    the clippings on the lawn and now I pay the boy next door to
    water my dirt...keeps the dust down doncha know :-).
    
          Dean

    I would like to hear of anyone's _experience_ with these "dethaching"
    attachments to rotary mowers.  I've heard conflicting rumors to the
    effect that they don't work well enough, or just rip up your lawn.
    
    I have a thach problem myself, and the rake is extremely slow going.
    I've sprayed on some "ThachMaster" micro-nutrients, but that will take
    a while.
    
    	Dave.

>         Yea I used to do that until the grass eventually died from
>    the clippings on the lawn and now I pay the boy next door to
>    water my dirt...keeps the dust down doncha know :-).
    
>          Dean
    
    If your lawn died it wasn't because of grass clippings.. grass
    clippings are an excellent source of nitrogen (i.e. fertilizer), and 
    mulch the lawn aiding in moisture retention.  Nothing wrong with
    leaving non-mulched clippings as long as you keep up with the growth..
    and cut less than 1/3 of the total height.   
    
    /Jeff

Using a side-discharge mower and leaving the clippings works only if you
mow frequently enough to keep the clipping lengths short and don't mind
clippings blown into other parts of the yard.  A mulching mower rechops the
clippings into finer particles so that they decompose faster and blows them
down into the grass so they don't form a mat at the top.

			Steve

	    Spag's is one place I know you can find mulching kits, and
	those are for side discharge mowers.  Rear baggers only need
	a mulching blade because the chute closes when you remove the
	bag (at least mine does).  
	    Side discharge mowers leave all those strips of grass clip-
	pings on the lawn.  I hate raking and I think those strips are
	ugly.  They also tend to choke out the grass under them.
	    I used a dethatcher attachment.  Leave the mower running 
	in one place for more than a millisecond and you get a nice
	circle dug into the dirt.  It made the thatch much easier to
	rake up but you still have to rake it.  And those bare spots
	that it created grew in quickly, so you don't have to worry
	too much about those "darn-its".
	    The best way to deal with thatch is prevention.  Thatch
	is mostly grass roots... not clippings.  If you fertilize, do
	it with 10-10-10.  It will help with root growth (down instead
	of up), which will give you a thicker lawn.  Lawn fertilizers
	are high in nitrogen (like 23-3-2) to make your lawn green.
	You get plenty of nitrogen in the clippings.

					Tim

    I 'converted' my Sears 22 inch, self propelled, rear bagger with the
    Sears mulching kit - $15 on sale months ago.
    
    Kit consisted of a new blade and a clip for the rear discharge door -
    to keep it locked.
    
    Tried it this past weekend and found:
    
    1.	it really does chop up stuff pretty good- caught a couple of leaves
    	and the pieces were no bigger than a quarter when chopped
    
    2.	did leave some clumps, especially when turning around or hitting
    	a bump
    
    	-Barry-
    

    Re: .235
    
    If think you are wrong. Grass clippings NEED Nitrogen to break
    down. They take the nitrogen from the surrounding soil. The mulch
    that is produced IS an excellent source of Nitrogen.
    
    Marc H.

    RE: .239
    
    >> Grass clippings NEED Nitrogen to break
    >> down. They take the nitrogen from the surrounding soil.
    
    This is incorrect.  Grass clippings themselves are high in nitrogen.
    Decaying grass does not take in nitrogen from the surrounding soil.
    
    As far as those dethaching, it is best to do it in a linear fashion,
    not a circular one.  A professional dethaching machine runs all the
    blades in the direction of travel.  Similarly dethaching attachments
    for lawn tractors consist of a springlike tines that runs
    parallel to the direction of travel.  A lawn tractor with a bagger
    is nice since you don't have to rake up the thatch after using one
    of these.  Any professional lawn care person will tell you never
    to use one of those circular dethacher baldes for your lawn mower.
    
    -al

    re.239
    Marc,
    Wood chips and leaves use nitrogen during the decay process but grass
    clippings release it or so I have (mis?)read.
    
    -j
    
    P.S. The tesla coil is still burning bright on the tube you gave
    me a few years back many thanks again!
    
    

    Hummmmmmm......I remember Jim Crocket in the old "victory garden"
    saying that Grass Clippings needed Nitrogen to break down....could
    be wrong though!
    
    
    Marc H.
    
    P.S. Glad to here that the 811 is still working.
    
    

    If any of you folks have a 22" mower bed that has 
    outlasted your motor, send me mail.  My bed is
    gonzo and I need another one.  It is a Sears model
    w/3.5 reserve power (rotary) motor.  
    
    Oh yeah, I work at the Mill and live in Andover.
    
    Thanks,
    Gary

    
    Gee, I don't know, it sounds like you want another 22" mower bed.
    
    Cq

    I do, but after I wrote the note, I
    realized it should have been in the 
    wanted string.  The header was my
    attempt at humor.  I think I'll keep
    my day job.
    
    Gary

    I used one of those dethatching blades on my mower with great success. 
    I started on a high setting, went over the entire lawn, then lowered it
    so that it just barely scratched the ground and went over it again. 
    It used to take days to painfully rake up what this thing did in an
    hour.  And, it didn't destroy my lawn like the "professional" machine I
    once rented...
    
    Has anyone "converted" their standard Sears mower with a mulching
    blade?  I'd like to do this to mine, but I hesitate fearing that it
    won't work well enough because of the lower deck of the standard mower
    vs. the higher deck of a mulcher...
    
    John
    

    Well tonight will mark the 4th time I've mowed with a standard mower,
    no bagger, and the regular blade that came with it.  I had taken the
    advice in here somewhere to try to just use the mower at the highest
    wheel position and just mow with the regular blade.  I had
    previously been bagging thus far.
    
    Things to note are the following:  I was suprised how well just the
    regular blade cut up the clippings enough to not be noticeable.  I
    suppose with the back and forth crossing to cut the lawn that the
    clippings get cut a few times anyways.
    
    The thing I'm already concerned about is that now with all those
    clippings on the ground re-fertalizing the lawn I'll have to mow more.
    With just the bagger (and having only fertalized the lawn once this
    spring), I would need to only cut the lawn once a week.  Now as I said
    above, this will be the 4th mowing without the bagger and the grass has
    got to be 2 inches higher at mowing time, than when I started.  I don't
    know maybe with all the rain we've had.... but seems like the
    clippings-to-fertalizer idea is what is doing it...
     
    I'll now have to mow on a 6 or 5 day interval instead of once a week.
    Granted the lawn looks great and is nice and green.  I just wonder if 
    maybe I should do something like 2 weeks in a row without the bagger and 
    1 week with?  Anybody else have this ~problem~?
    
    Steve

	    I bag once in a while to get clippings for the compost pile.
	I don't think the lawn grows any slower but those clippings sure 
	do get the compost cooking.  I mow the lawn once a week... whether 
	it needs it or not.  ;^)  It may not look premo by the end of the 
	week, but I don't worry too much about that.   I just want it to 
	be green and healthy.

					Tim

    
    I'm looking for a place which will sharpen oldfashioned reel mowers.
    for a reasonable price.  I now own two of these (we saved one from a
    yard sale) and I  love the way the lawn looks when done. 
    However, getting them professionally sharpened at $30 a crack does NOT
    thrill me.  
    
    C

    RE: .251
    
    I use to sharpen mine by first, removing the gear cover and reversing
    the gear arrangement, so that the blades turned backward. Then, I put
    grinding compond on the cutting bar and pushed the mower to turn the
    blades. I would keep adjusting the bar, and adding more compond
    until the bar/blades were all nice and sharp.
    
    Worked fine until I went to power/rotary.
    
    Remember to convert the blades back when done.
    
    Marc H.

    Maybe would one of those hand ice skate sharpeners work on a 
    rotary mower. I don't know but if you can find one they are cheap 
    and it would be easy to use.
    
            Dean 

    re: mowing the lawn with bag removed sort of mulches....
    
    I tried this a few times with my Murry 21 inch rear bagger.  The
    results were clumps of grass.  For about $7 (or was it $7.99), I
    got a "mulching blade" at Home Depot.  True Value (side discharge ONLY) 
    and Sears sells kits for $15 (on sale) and $20.  Sears $20 kit includes
    a latch to hold the read door shut and a blade of what looked like
    better steel.   
    
    I did some experimenting.  The first time I used it, I reved the
    engine up to mulch real good.  I've since learned that a slower speed
    works much better.  I still got some clumps of cut grass due to the
    shape of the mower deck but I'd walk around and kick them apart 
    afterwards.  
    
    I tried the mower with the bagger on to see if the blade would still 
    pickup and toss the clippings into the bag.  It worked great but I 
    noticed that all the pieces were chopped up very fine - much better
    than when I have the rear door closed.  Great for the compose pile and 
    for mulching!
    
    So last night I tried a 1/2 inch piece of wood to hold the rear door
    open.  A little grass shot out the sides of the door (nothing towards 
    me) and I got alot fewer and smaller clumps.   I'm on the right track now.
    The side discharge mowers come with a plate full of holes to cover the 
    chute.  I'm going to make a side chute for my mower and see if I can't 
    get rid of the clumping.  If the pieces are small enought, it would
    make no difference if they "drop" or are "tossed" onto the lawn.  For $7 
    I've got a mulching mower AND entertainment! 
    
    BTW - I've used this maybe 6 times and see NO build up of clippings.
    Does this mean it will take 20 yrs to see any difference in my lawn?
    (yes!)
    
    PS:I checked - they don't make a side chute to fit my mower or I'd buy a 
    nice plastic one and use it with the mulching blade.

	Has anyone looked into a riding mower recently around the Mass and N.H.
area ? I am going to buy something before the end of this weekend. I have been
looking at the John Deer model 38 with read bagger and the Sears line with the
Kholer engine. The price I got in Leominster for the Deer was about $2500.

	Any places in N.H. that sell John Deer ? Anyone have a comments on my
picks ??

	Thanks,
	-Steve-

>looking at the John Deer model 38 with read bagger and the Sears line with the
>Kholer engine. The price I got in Leominster for the Deer was about $2500.

I recall looking at the Deer model 38.  I remember seeing it on sale (in 
central Mass) for $1999 (not including bagger - that's usually somewhere 
around $300).  It's a nice mower, but I have node idea how it compares to 
the Sears/Kholer.  But aren't the Sears at the other end of the price 
spectrum?  Have you looked at Ariens, Bolens, or Cub Cadet?  They're all
supposed to be pretty decent.

I ended up getting a Troy-Built/Bolens with bagger from a local dealer (he
assembled and delivered).  But I find myself not using the bagger much anymore 
(compost pile getting too large and it takes a lot longer for an acre of grass)
and just cutting a little more frequently...

Just some thoughts,
Dan

RE: <<< Note 1642.255 by RANGER::BOOTH "Stephen Booth" >>>


|	Any places in N.H. that sell John Deer ? Anyone have a comments on my
|  picks ??


 R.J. Rosencrantz, Rt. 107 East Kingston, (or is it just over the line in 
Kennsington?)

 Deer makes good stuff for the bucks. I don't care for Sears stuff on account 
of later in life service and parts become a hassle.

 I've always been pleased with Rosencrantz and they have fair prices also.
	
	

    I have the STX38.  I bought it from Standard Fence in Manchester, NH.
    $2195 with 3 months interest free financing last year.  
    
    It's a reasonably good machine, though I've had to replace a belt
    already (1 year) and it gets stuck in ruts or mud pretty easily.
    (I have 2 acres of wet potholes.)   
    
    Next time, I'll probably test drive a Troybilt first.
    
    

	Thanks for your thoughts. I finished looking at all the mowers last
night and ended up buying a Honda 4013. Just looking at it sold me. Everything
is very heavy duty and all the controls operate real smooth ! The turning radius
was 20 inches and that was very impressive. I never knew they could turn that
sharp. I looked at the John Deer LX172 and I thought the Honda was far better.
John Deer wanted $3200 for theres and the Honda was $3600 but he gave it to me
for $3200 (All with rear bagger). The John Deer had a Kawasaki engine in it ????

	The Honda just reeked of quality !!!

	-Steve-

    $3200........phew. I bought a brand new 61 Chevy conv. 409 for that
    much money.
    
    TMW.
    
    btw correct spelling of the brand of small engines is Kohler 

	Re. -1

Funny, I was thinking the same thing. I bought my first new car in 1974 and
it cost me $2955.

	-Steve-

    I have a 23hp. Bolens tractor/lawn mower with a bucket loader that is
    worth ~8k...that's almost half of what I bought my house for in 70.
    I guess we all think of the old days and have forgotten about
    inflation. Have you seen the price on grass seed lately......
    
    
    Jim

    I went to Sears this weekend and found that they have mulching
    conversion kits for their sit-down mowers but nothing for the lawn
    tractors.  However, the salesman said he thought the manufacturers
    might come out with kits for the tractors in a year or so.  So, don't
    hold your breath waiting for one.

    
    I am in the market for a lawn/garden tractor.  I've read through
    all the replies here, but most of them are years old!  I still have
    a few questions.
    
    1 - Sears has an 18hp lawn tractor w/43" deck for $1400.  It has a
    lighter frame than their garden tractors. This seemed
    like a great buy to me.  I have a 2.5 acre lot, with ~.75 acre grass
    with some moderate hills.  I also want to pull a trailer, and push a 
    snow blower.  Does anyone have any recommendations/experience with the
    quality of Sears LAWN vs GARDEN tractors longevity.  The engine is a
    B&S.
    
    2 - How much are the new 200 series John Deere's?  Anyone priced them
    recently?
    
    3 - Where can I find dealers for the Cub Cadet, Wheelhorse, Ford, Troy
    Built brand tractors in the greater maynard area?  I live in
    boxborough, and work in nashua.
    
    4 - Can someone explain hydrostatic drive to me.  Is this similar to
    an automatic transmission vs a standard?
    
    thanks
    
    Scott
     

    The Cub Cadet dealer I use is Village Farm Supply in Berlin, Mass.  
    I think it's South Street (I know where it is, but I'm not sure
    of the name of the road!)
    
    There's a Troy-Bilt dealer in Harvard, Mass., someplace.
    
    Hydrostatic drive is not like an authomatic transmission, at all.
    Hydrostatic drive is basically a hydraulic motor.  The tractor
    engine runs a pump, which pumps hydraulic fluid through the hydraulic
    motor.  Speed is continuously variable, and is achieved by varying
    the innards of the hydraulic motor via a lever.  Personal opinion:
    IT'S WORTH THE MONEY.

 Ford tractors:

 Ken Smith Tractor
 Rt 125 Brentwood, NH
 
 (Tax free New Hampshire) :-)

 He's got everything from small lawn/garden size up through large farm 
tractors. He's generally got a fair stock of used machines as well as new 
ones.

 Keep in mind that no matter whatever you get, in large measure you get what 
you pay for. This isn't necessarily to say a low dollar tractor isn't any 
good, or an expensive one is good, it's mainly to say it's a major investment 
that you want to last a number of years so it pays to shop around, check 
reputations, etc. and get the best one you can afford for the type of work 
you want to do. And don't settle on one that's too small. Its worse to have 
one thats too small than not having one at all! both size-wise and 
horsepower-wise.

 I second the hydrostatic drive. Excellent control and no shifting gears all
the time. 

 

I had a Sears 14 hp garden tractor for about 13 years. It was
bullet-proof. So was the mower deck (also Sears). The tractor was
all-belt drive, two-speed axle and three-speed transmission. No problems
there, except for occasional bet slippage.

I replaced the belt on the mower deck once in 13-odd years. 

The snow blower was a whole 'nother story, and was the entire reason why
I did not buy from Sears when I replaced the rig. In fact it was the
reason why I replaced the rig!  Seasons with lots of snow saw up to four
belt replacements for the snow blower. And, it was common to have to make
multiple pulley/spring/lever adjustments during the course of removing
snow from one storm. Not much fun when you're trying to clear your
driveway to get to work and you're making adjustments that require three
different tools and you're at the end of a 100' driveway and it's still
snowing and 20 degrees. It got so bad that I bought a brand-new second
blower for parts. This was their 42" blower.

You didn't mention Simplicity in your list... you should check them out.
They're US-made, and I saw several that guys had owned for many years and
they were still purring along.

You should know that John Deere is mostly made in Japan. Not that that's
all bad. I bought a John Deere, so I can say that. But you shouldn't
assume that a seemingly American name equates to a US-made product. I
<heart> my John Deere, but I shudder to think what any serious
replacement parts will cost. For example, one of the sealed-beam "work
lights" died. I could only buy it at John Deere! It's made by Sylvania
for JD only, and only JD dealers have them (sure to spawn a bunch of "oh
yeah, I can get anything" comments - well, I have friends in high places,
and those %#$@# sealed beams are only available from JD, and
`replacement' bulbs will not fit in the fender). They charge $22 if they
like you, $26 if they don't know you. ...just an example... I've been
told by hydraulics gurus that JD uses non-standard fittings and lines,
and can only be obtained from JD.

Still, all in all, I like my JD.  

Another vote for hydrostatic drive, by the way.

Art

    
    "Bullet proof tractor".....  Back some years ago I use to cut
    the grass at the local cemetery.  They had a Pennsylvania
    Panza.  I think it was a 10hp unit.  It was a simple, heavy
    duty unit and you couldnt kill it.....I tired but couldnt!
    
    JD makes a good machine, but I think there is a little extra
    cost for the name....  
    
    JD

    
    "PANZER"  is the correct word.  They used the same read end and axle
    as the 49 Plymouth.
    
    Nice little tank, too bad they went out of business.  We used one for
    pulling felled trees off a lot we cleared.
    
    
    Gary

    I purchased a Sears 12hp with 40" deck in the early eighties.  I am so
    happy with this purchase I will never do business with Sears again. 
    
    When the mower is running it does an adequate job of lawn mowing.  
    However the grass gets very long waiting for Sears to ship me the parts 
    needed to keep it running.  It is all belt driven and the most common 
    failure is a $75 timing belt between the blades.  Experience has taught 
    me to keep one of these in spare at all times.  The second most frequent 
    failure is the hubs the blades mount on.  These are supposed to work like 
    a shearpin to prevent damage to the deck drivetrain.  Believe me they
    shear at the slightest provocation and the damage to the stamped metal
    deck is caused by the free swinging blades.  I must keep these in stock
    in the event my blades have a colision with grass.
    
    I could continue to rambel about the snow blower but you get the
    message.
    
    Bye the way the tractor was manufactured by Murray for Sears.  I find I
    can get better parts support from Murray dealers.
    
    IMHO;
    
    You get what you pay for,
    
    Hydrostatic is great,
    
    Be careful that the transmission you buy meets your requirements,
    
    Some mowers are better described as field mowers than lawn mowers,
    Lawn mowers leave a nice velvety grass surface...field mowers don't
    
    To be effective at blowing snow the tractor needs adequate mass,
    
    Look for simple designs with plenty of grease fittings,
    
    Look for a design that allows you to remove/reinstall the deck conviently,
    
    Look for a design that allows you to remove/reinstall the blower
    conviently,
    
    Have service plans you are comfortable with,
    
    Give some thought to two separate machines,
    
    If you decide on a tractor with cutting deck and blower attachments and
    don't purchase them at the same time get an ironbound agreement on how
    long the wanted attachments will be available.
     
     

I did have sad learning experiences with drive belts for my Sears
tractor-mower-snowblower. I learned very quickly that Sears' $60 belt
could be bought for $5 to $12 at auto parts stores or commercial drive
suppliers (such as Atlantic-Tracy in Nashua, NH). All you need to know is
the width and length. Sometimes there are different "vee" angles, and
sometimes some belts are heavier duty. *None* are more expensive.

Live and learn. My tractor was made by Roper for Sears.

    I have been pricing Husqvarna tractors, and they are
    significantly cheaper than the other name brands.  I asked
    one dealer why, and he said that Husky had bought out Roper,
    and their tractors are "cheaper".  HAs anyone else heard this?
    
    Does anyone out there have a Husky lawn tractor, and how has it
    been quality wise?
    
    thanks
    
    Scott
    

    
    I'm going to buy three new blades soon for my 44" mowing deck.  I want
    to know if anyone has found a blade set that can hold an edge better
    than factory originals.  
    
    Gary

    re: .44
    
    There are "hard faced" blades that stand up somewhat better.  They
    have a thin layer of something or other - presumably hard - built 
    up on the back side of each cutting edge.  The extreme cutting edge
    of the blade is therefore hard, but it's supported by the rest of
    the (relatively soft) blade so brittleness isn't a problem.  The
    blades tend to be quite a bit more expensive, but they don't need
    sharpening as often so one might in fact get enough more use out of
    them to offset the price premium...not to mention the reduction in 
    the aggravation of sharpening.  I assume your mower dealer will have
    them.  I got some for my International Harvester mower a few years
    ago and have been generally happy with them.
    
    They are still sharpenable with a file, by the way.
    

    
    I was mentioning to my neigbor what a hassle it was cleaning the grass
    out of my mower after use. My lawn is mostly new growth and is very
    wet causing the grass to stick and clump up the underneath. I had to 
    scrape the underside vigourously to get it off. He suggested spraying
    the whole underside including blade with wd-40 prior to mowing, keeps
    it from sticking as badly. He was right, next time I mowed I sprayed
    it and although the grass still stuck, albeit not as bad, I was able to 
    wipe it off without much resistance. 
    
    Hope this helps!

It also helps not to mow the grass when it's wet - not only does this keep
your mower deck from clogging, but it's better for the grass.  This time
of year you should be mowing no closer than 2-1/2 inches, at least once per
week.

					Steve

     15+ years ago my father bought an "early" mulching mower. Its mulching
     ability was severely hampered by grass coating the underside of the 
     mower deck. The thing had a simple fitting for a garden hose on the 
     top of the deck that sprayed water straight down onto the blade. 
    
     In order to clean it, you attached the hose turned on the water and
     started the engine and let it rin for 5 minutes. The thing was as clean
     as can be afterwards. Makes me wonder why you don't find this sort of
     thing on many mowers.
    
     Perhaps you could retrofit one?

    
    
    re: It also helps not to mow the grass when it's wet
    
    I don't mow it while wet, because it's new growth it's just very moist
    blades of grass on the inside.

Re: .267

You're probably mowing it too close, then.  Even with new growth, the tips
should dry out enough with a day or two of nice weather to not give you
clogging problems.  

				Steve

    
    re: .268 You're probably mowing it too close
    
    That could be, you know, trying to stave off the next mowing as long as 
    possible. I'll try the next height adjustment up.
    
    Thanks

    
    	With all the talk of the amazing mulching lawn mowers earlier, does
    	anyone know how well the "mulching blades" for sale at hardware
    	stores work?  Might be a cheap way to effectively get a mulching
    	mower until my current beat-up mower dies out...
    
	-Erik

Re: .270

I use a mulching kit for my Honda mower, though it is a Honda kit.  The
mower itself wasn't designed as a mulcher.  The blade looks essentially the
same as the normal blade, but has less tilt for "lower lift".  Then there is
a plastic plug which blocks the discharge opening.  It works well enough for
my purposes.

The most important points are to keep the blade sharp, run at full throttle
and to not clip more than a half-inch of grass at a time.

				Steve

I bought a "universal" mulching blade for my mower (Rally 5hp rear discharge
self-propelled) from Gardeners Supply mail order. After trying it for awhile, I
put the old blade back on. Unless I was removing less than 1", the cut grass
tended to clump together. I also had an extra incentive to stop mulching: my
lawn got a fungus problem and I was nurturing it by returning the clippings ...

Brian

	    I have an after factory mulching blade on my rear discharge 
	mower.  I think it works just fine.  If the grass is too long
	(which is the norm), I wedge a rock in the discharge door to let
	some of the air/clippings escape.  That really seems to help a
	lot.  It's probably not as safe this way, so you might consider
	wearing safety glasses if you go this route.  
	    Even when I use the bag on my mower, I leave the mulching
	blade on it.  
	Re -.1   As for the fungus, do you water your lawn an night?
	Fungi and diseases are always around.  Leaving a lawn damp every
	night could help promote growth that would otherwise be minimal
	and unnoticable.

					Tim

	re -.2

	Uou never want to cut more than an inch of gras when mulching -
	preferably more like 1/2". In the spring that probably means cutting
	every 3-5 days. If you can't keep that schedule, you're better off
	either going over your lawn twice to mulch, or just bagging and
	composting.

	re -.1

	It sounds like what you are doing is EXTREMELY dangerous! I would
	*NEVER* have the discharge door open without the chute attached,
	especialyl on a rear discharge unit. Is the benefit of mulching
	really worth the risk of injury?

	Roy

I can't use the mulching blade with bagging as the blade provides so little
"lift" that almost no grass goes into the bag.  If I use the side-discharge
chute, the clippings go maybe about six inches!  However, I only use the
bag in the early spring and in mid-late fall, so it's not a big deal to change
blades (a 3 minute operation).  This "low lift" is perhaps peculiar to
the Honda blade.

					Steve

    
    I have the honda with a mulching "kit" too. It works pretty well except
    the clippings all seem to collect on the left rear wheel where they
    leave long strips of agglomerated clippings every so often. They don't
    really clump anywhere else.
    
    Steve B.
    

I have a 5hp Toro Mulching mower.  I can usually cut up to about 2" off
the grass without it getting bogged down.  Sometimes,  in areas where the
grass is really thick,  it stalls, but usually it works great.  Without
having to stop an empty the bag all the time,  I've cut at least 50% off
my weekly mowing time.

Garry

Re: .278

You're not doing your grass any favors by cutting so much off at a time.

			Steve

>	    Sounds like you feel pretty strongly about this.

	Yes, I feel quite strongly about safety, whenever I use dangerous
	tools or machines. I feel even more strongly about not recommending
	unsafe operation to other people, because I think it's
	irresponsible.

	Roy

    
    I have a rear discharge 44" mower deck on my 414 wheelhorse.  There is no
    chute just a 2' wide opening in the back.  BTW, it's never clogged.
    
    Gary

    RE:.280

>>	    Sounds like you feel pretty strongly about this.

    >	Yes, I feel quite strongly about safety, whenever I use dangerous
    >	tools or machines. I feel even more strongly about not recommending
    >	unsafe operation to other people, because I think it's
    >	irresponsible.

    	Well then I guess you won't be following any of his advise. 
    Seriously though don't you think your coming down a little hard 
    here?  What Tim suggested wasn't that radical and he took extra 
    safety precautions (glasses).  Ease up a bit and don't let life 
    pass you by. 

    Joe 

>	because I think it's irresponsible.

	Roy,

	    If I didn't know better, I'd say you insulted me.  Why'd you
	have to go and do a thing like that for?  
	    Your opinion as to the lack of safety of my methods has been
	`noted' and I think your point was easily understood.  To all you
	children out there reading this string of notes, do NOT try this 
	at home!  To the adults, you'll just have to be responsible for 
	your own decisions.

					Tim

If only all the adults would ACCEPT responsibility for their own decisions.
Then we wouldn't get idiots suing the manufacturer when they tried to use
their lawn mower as a hedge clipper because the instructions didn't say not
to....

Regarding "propping open the discharge door" - I'd think that attaching a
normal side-discharge chute would be an adequate (and safer) substitute than
wedging a rock in the door.  I find when I do this, and use the mulching
blade, the clippings only fly out a foot or so.

			Steve

	I'm not trying to come down hard or insult anybody. The fact is that
	this notesfile is often turned to by neophytes as a source of
	"expert" advice. As such I think there is a responsibility implied
	for those who want to suggest methods and techniques for handling
	problems. What you do is your business; what you suggest to others
	is a bit more. I won't bother saying any more on the subject.

	Roy

    I'm looking for comments from anyone who has had experience with Lawn
    Boy mowers.  I recently bought a new home with a very nice (and fairly
    large) lawn, and after mowing the lawn once with my old half Sears half
    Caldor abomination, I realized that it just would not do.  I began to
    look at "High End" lawnmowers.  I have seen some of the machines
    mentioned in earier replies, but was put off by the price.  I know you
    get what you pay for, but some of the prices just seem excessive.  
    
    While at Home Depot a few days ago, I was looking at a Lawn Boy "gold
    series" mower.  This thing sure is ugly, but it seems like a good
    machine.  The deck is cast aluminum, it can be used as a mulcher, or as
    a side or rear bagger, and it is powered by a Briggs and Stratton 5hp
    commercial engine.  It seems to have all the right stuff, and best of
    all the price tag was $338.00.  This is considerably less expensive
    than Toro, Honda, Snapper, etc.  I have more than once seen
    professional landscapers using Lawn Boys, so I figured they must be
    decent machines.  Any comments?
    
    Dave

    Please don't mow your lawn like the idiot down the street; shorts,
    barefoot, and a beer!  I cringe when I drive by...

	One thing you'll want to be aware of about the Lawn Boy is that it's
	a 2-cycle engine. That means you mix the oil and gas yourself, and
	then fill the tank with the mixture. Most mowers are 4-cycle
	engines, which tend to be quieter, more convenient, but a bit less
	powerful for their weight.

	After much research I bought a higher-end Lawn Boy (an "M series" -
	you won't find it at Home Depot, only at Lawn Boy dealers), and am
	very happy with it for my half-acre of grass. Then again, I've only
	used it 3 times now, so it had darn welll better perform well so
	far.

	Roy

    
    Ya, my mower deck was rusted so bad I had to take the
    the old 3.5hp B/S and put it on a nice cast Alu deck.  I spent
    $1.59 for a new plug and $1.89 for a can of paint.  I wasnt going
    to spend the $1.89 but I wanted to tell the neighbor that
    I just spent $400 for "my lawnmower!"....but if he could stay off
    the phone because it was causing problems with my remote control....:)
    
    JD

    RE: .288
    
    The Lawn Boy that I looked at was a 4 stroke, not a 2.  They also
    had a 2 stroke version of it at a higher price.  The engine is a Briggs
    and Straton commercial 5 horsepower 4 stroke.  Since my yard is flat
    as a pancake, and I don't like dealing with premixing fuel, I'm not
    interested in the 2 stroke.  Can you tell me what the difference is
    between the M series and the Gold series?  
    
    Dave

	I must be confused a bit - Lawn Boy has a couple of different
	"lines".

	The "M" series are all two-stroke machines, with a "normal" wheel
	set (not the offset wheels that you see on their Gold and Silver
	series), and get into higher-end features like a blade brake clutch.
	They also have cast magnesium decks, longer warranties, and a higher
	price tag.

	I didn't know that Lawn Boy made 4-stroke engines - in fact, their
	marketing literature that I have touts the fact that they only make
	2-cycle enginers, and make them in the USA. I do know (after talking
	to the dealer) that Toro bought Lawn Boy a year or so ago, so what
	you are probably seeing is a Toro engine in a Lawn Boy mower, which
	(from Toro's reputation) isn't a bad thing.

	I guess that the bottom line is that Lawn Boy has some mowers that
	they sell at home centers (and even Bradlees, BTW), and another that
	they sell through their dealers. For what it's worth, Consumer
	Reports says that lawn mower prices tend to drop after July 4, at
	least in the mass market places. You won't see a drop at dealers in
	all likelihood, since demand for the high-end machines is
	outstripping supply and they're having trouble getting them in
	stock.

	Roy

    Yes, the 4 stroke engine supprised me too, I also thought they only did
    2 strokes.  I also was unaware that Toro bought Lawn Boy.  However, the
    engine on the Gold series machine I looked at was a Briggs and Straton.
    I believe that Toro is using a Kawasaki designed overhead valve engine
    on their machines, so the two mowers do not use the same engines. 
    Perhaps the B&S engine was a cost cutting measure on the Gold series,
    those engines have been around forever and have to be cheaper.  
    
    Dave
    

    
      I'm sure the models with the B & S engines are a way to sell to those
    that want a good machine, but not a professional quality level machine
    or the price.
    
      The two cycle Lawn Boy will run forever, which is why the pros use
    them. A typical four cycle lawnmower will last 15-20 years in home use.
    Its often not even the motor that goes. So while the 2 cycle Law Boy
    will probably outlast the 4 cycle in *running hours*, it may be a moot
    point if you can use a 'normal' 4 cycle for 15 or more years and buy it
    for a lot less.
    
    					Kenny

    
    	I just bought a Lawn Boy "Gold Series" this past spring.  It
    	has the 2 cycle engine, mulching blade and is self-propelled.
    	I've used it every week since the beginning of May and have
    	absolutely no complaints.  It seems quieter than a 4 cycle to 
    	me and does a nice job of cutting and mulching.  The only time 
    	I can even see the clippings is if the grass is unusually high.
    
    	My $.02 worth - a good mower as far as I'm concerned.
    
    	Ed               

                                                        
I brought a 5 HP Toro Recycler last fall (Pust Type) with a bag for 369.00 at
Grantz  in Salem, NH. This is only about $30 diffenece from the Lawn Boy so I
don't know why everybody thinks brand name mowers are really expensive (except
Honda).

I went with Toro instead or a Lawn Bay for several reasons:

1. My parents brought a 3.5 HP Toro back in 1976 and it is still in great
   shape (hardward, paint, engine).
2. Recommendation from this notesfile and Honda was way out of my price range.
3. The Recycler is design to be a mulcher mower instead of a lawn mower with a
   mulching blade. I am sure the Lawn boy works but I am a engineer and I 
   like my TOYS to be design for a specific purpose. 
4. The dealer offered a 2 year Gurantee to start warrantee and 10 free times
   of blade sharpenning. 
  
So before you jump into a Home Improvement store and purchase one. I would
suggest checking out several lawnmower dealers in the yellow pages and paid
them a visit. Since they are privately own. Some might even deal to get rid of
a older model.

Dave

    I bought a replacement deck for my lawnmower.  The lawnmower was
    self-propelled and has a shaft with a pulley wheel coming out of the
    engine.  The new deck is not for a self-propelled mower and the pulley
    hits the deck so I want to pull it off.  I'm not sure exactly how to
    get the pulley off but I think it is held on by this small piece of
    metal which goes through the shaft.  This piece looks like a small
    metal tube with a slot on one side.  Does this sound familiar to anyone
    based on the pitiful description above?  How do I get the pulley off?
    
    							John

    	A gear puller is the way to go. You can get them at auto parts stores 
    and some department stores for around $10-$15.
    
    	Ray

<    hits the deck so I want to pull it off.  I'm not sure exactly how to
<    get the pulley off but I think it is held on by this small piece of
<    metal which goes through the shaft.  This piece looks like a small
<    metal tube with a slot on one side.  Does this sound familiar to anyone
<    based on the pitiful description above?  How do I get the pulley off?
    
Based on your "pitiful" :-);-) description, I'm sure you've identified the
pin that holds the pulley on.  Now go get a pin punch about the same size and
pound the pin out... (instead of a pin-punch some folks use a nail, an allen
wrench, a bolt, anything that's smaller than the hole in the shaft but larger
that the hole in the pin)...

Good luck..

Al

    	After re-reading your (and the previous) note, it sounds like the
    previous note is correct. I initially thought that you were talking
    about a shaft with a keyway (which is when you'd want a gear/pully
    puller).
    	
    	Ray

    What you're describing sounds like a "spring pin" or a "roll pin."
    It can be driven out with an appropriate-sized punch (just slightly 
    smaller than the hole the pin is in).  Try to support the shaft
    on the other side while you're banging on it so you aren't beating
    on the bearings.
    
    For the fanatics, it is possible to buy special punches for driving
    out such pins, with the end of the punch contoured to fit the end of 
    the pin, but for a lawnmower it's not worth the trouble.  Use a
    regular pin punch.  Or a nail filed off flat.

    just make sure that what looks like a pin isn't an allen head set
    screw.
    
    a roll pin will show on both sides of the shaft; a set screw will only
    show on one side.
    
    ...tom

    Okay, that's how you get one of these pins out.  Is there some 
    trick to getting one in without destroying it?  (I've destroyed
    one and partly another trying to do this, trying tapping with
    a hammer and tapping with a nail.)  Is there some special tool
    for this or other technique?
    
    Nancy

Re: .302

    When trying to remove roll pins, you need to have a pin punch.  This
    kind of punch has a round "business" end (that rests on the roll pin)
    with a diameter slightly less than that of the roll pin.  This allows
    it to push out the roll pin without expanding it in the hole (as a nail
    would try to do).

    I have a few different pin punches that I've obtained (many years ago)
    at Sears.  I believe some of the better auto parts stores may also carry
    them.

    BTW, I have sometimes had good luck using an appropriately sized nailset.
    However, you must be careful because the nailset's sides are tapered.

- Mark

    re:302
    
    	I've never had a problem (the few times I've done it) getting one
    back in. I just tapped it in with a hammer. The end of the pin is
    usually beveled so that it compresses as you tap it in. Maybe I just
    got lucky ? 
    
    	One thing that you could try in pressing it in with a C-clamp if
    you have one.
    
    	Ray

    
    I didn't see this mentioned anywhere (usual disclaimer) ...
    
    I have an elderly Sears Eager-1 lawnmower (circa 1980 I think)
    that takes regular gas.
    
    My question is simple: can I use unleaded gas instead of regular?
    
    Paul C
    

    
        My question is simple: can I use unleaded gas instead of regular?
    
    
    
    	Yes, however you can by lead additives, or whatever it is, to put in 
    	the unleaded for use in older motors.

    >	Yes, however you can by lead additives, or whatever it is, to put in 
    >	the unleaded for use in older motors.

    	Is this a recommendation or must I use lead additives in order for
    	the engine to run ok?
    
    	Thanks for reply.
    
    	Paulc
    
    

    
    
    Given the age of the mower, I would just use the unleaded gas, I only
    suggested the additive if you were really concerned about it. My older
    motorcycles that were manufactured before unleaded gas ran ok on the
    unleaded, that's not to say there weren't adverse affects internally,
    but they never manifested themselves.

    For a typical 25 hours per year.....use the cheapest gas you can
    find.
    
    Marc H.

    Any lawnmower that I have ever heard of will run just fine on the
    lowest octane fuel you can buy. Any lawnmower made after about 1975
    doesn't need lead in the gas. In fact, even *leaded* gas in 1980 only
    had about 1/10th of the amount of lead that gas had in 1970. Marc is
    right, use the lowest octane gas you can buy, just don't use OLD gas.
    
    				Kenny

    
    
    ...??   Geeeeee, You mean you have to put gas in them
    there contraptions????  Ha!  and i've been just pushing
    mine all these years!
    
    JD

    Thanks for the information about using the gas.  I finally got to try
    it out last night (as the thunder was rolling in).  Due to other
    problems, I think I'm going to ditch the mower and get myself a
    bran' spankin' new one.
    
    Paul C
    

    RE: .312
    
    If is just engine trouble.....fix it up.
    
    My moto:
    
    Use it up
    fix it up
    wear it out
    throw it out
    
    Marc H.

  Well, It's time for me to buy a lawn mower. I want a reliable mower that 
  should last at least five years with little maintenance. I also have to buy
  a 2 cycle because I have few hills. I'm considering three brands - Toro,
  Honda and Snapper. 

  Toro's lawn mower cost    - $640 
  Snapper's lawn mower cost - $550
  Honda's lawn mower cost   - $619  - Honda doesn't make 2 cycle lawn mower.
                                      Is it O.K. to use Honda's lawn mower on
                                      hills ? 

   Any comments, suggestions, experiences with these brands of mowers are 
   appreciated.  

   Vinit

  Well, It's time for me to buy a lawn mower. I want a reliable mower that 
  should last at least five years with little maintenance. I also have to buy
  a 2 cycle because I have few hills. I'm considering three brands - Toro,
  Honda and Snapper. 

  Toro's lawn mower cost    - $640 
  Snapper's lawn mower cost - $550
  Honda's lawn mower cost   - $619  - Honda doesn't make 2 cycle lawn mower.
                                      Is it O.K. to use Honda's lawn mower on
                                      hills ? 

   Any comments, suggestions, experiences with these brands of mowers are 
   appreciated.  

   Vinit

    Why do you need a 2-cycle mower for hills???  Everyplace I've ever
    lived has had hills, and I've never used a 2-cycle mower.

Did you consider LawnBoy? I bought one at the beginning of the mowing
season and really like it. Being a 2 stroke it emits a certain amount of
smoke (not that much) which kept the biting bugs away while mowing.

    I've had my Lawnboy for 15 years.  The two Sears mowers I have prior to
    the lawnboy only last two years each.
    
    I will never have anything but a Lawnboy.  My electric start still
    works with the original battery.

	I also have a lawn boy that I'm very happy with. 

	But as .1 says, are you sure you need a 2-cycle? The primary
	advantage of 2-cycle engines in lawn mowers is that they get more
	power out of a lgihter engine (so I'm told). Unless your hills are
	cliffs, any 4-cycle will do.

	Roy

    My 2 cents;
    
    I have had very good luck with my Snapper 4hp rear bag (techomsa
    sp? engine)
    
    In the fall I put the snapperizer on ( $79 and worth every penny).
    
    This shreads the leaves.
    
    I like; 
    the large capacity bag.
    six speeds forward
    the snapperizer
    oil/gas fill location
    the way it cuts (clean)
    the hi vac is a big plus.
    
    
    
    There are many notes in gardening on lawn mowers.
    
    
    good luck 
    
    Don
    
    

    
    Just to let you know, Caldors in Westboro Mass has two Lawnboy mowers
    (both floor models) for $250.00 each..  Regular price $349.00.  Thats a
    good price. And like said in a previous note, Lawnboys a excellent
    mowers and will give you many years of use. My inlaws lawnboy is 20
    years old and still going strong, and can still buy the replacement
    bagger for the mower. I'll vote for the Lawnboy
    
    Dave

    
    BTW, toro owns lawnboy now.

    The stores like Builders Square and Home Depot only carry the cheaper
    Lawn Boy models.  I would go to a Lawn Boy dealer and get a better
    model.

  I bought a secondhand LawnBoy at the end of the mowing season 
  last year, 1 speeds forward and I really like it. Being a 2 stroke 
  it emits a certain amount of smoke what a sweat smell I love. 
  I am really delighted with the 1 gallon tank you can cut for almost 
  6 hours without a refill. No more oil changes. 1 pull on the cord
  and it starts a child could do it. I have never stalled it yet. 
  You can fit a key switch off this makes the mower safe so children 
  cannot start unsupervised. Or your neighbor cannot borrow without 
  permission. (he would probably use unmixed petrol). When you 
  start the LawnBoy it really blows up the large capacity bag. 
  The better the blow less clogging up with grass. 
  I would really recommend a LawnBoy.
 

    Unless you plan on mowing a golf course, your 5 year life expectancy
    requirement sets my "you're gonna spend too much" flag.
    
    I've got a mowable acre of grass, with a fair slope out back and I
    never give the 4/2 stroke issue a second thought.
    
    Were it me, I'd buy the cheapest lawnmower I could find (Just bought
    one for $129 at HQ) and simply replace it. For >$500, I'd want a mower
    that knew when the grass was too long and went out and cut it itself.
    
    My Sears Eager 1 lasted 8 years until it finally died of body rot.
    $150 or so then. Taking it in out of the rain/snow probably would have
    extended it's life considerably.
    
    Edd

    
      I couldn't agree with Ed more. I've never seen a Briggs and Stratton
    engined lawnmower that didn't last at least 10 years mowing 1/2 acre or
    less grass. Change the oil and sharpen the blade once a year and keep
    it out of the rain and snow is all it takes. Maybe every 5 years change
    the sparkplug. This goes for the motor only.
    
      Of course, if you get self propelled, then you are at
    the mercy of the quality of the company that designed and built the
    self propelling gear. (And THAT quality varies enormously!)
    
    				Kenny

	We bought the $99 special last year at Somerville... a Briggs and
	Stratton engine.  We couldn't afford some of the more expensive
	models that cost $250 and we fully expected the lawn mower to
	need replacing this year.  Well, it is almost through its second
	season and all we have done is change the oil, change the blade
	(got damaged by pebbles in lawn) and change the sparkplug.  When
	the sparkplug went, we almost bought a new mower but my husband
	managed to figure out the problem (took him 2 weeks though and he
	had the thing completely apart!).

	I'd go for the less expensive model myself in the future.  Heck,
	if you plan to spend $500, just come up with another $500 and you
	can buy a rider mower!

	Karen

    To add more, my 11-yr old B&S based machine has original plug and
    I only add oil, never changed it. Never sharpened the blade. For 5
    years, I mowed a 22k foot lot, for last 6 yrs, lot shrank to about 3k
    feet. It is a self-propelled unit, but I rarely use the self-propeller.
    Purchased at Service Merchandise for about $199.
    
    My take on the decision is to go inexpensively, because cheap is the
    wrong word here.

    
    Oh come on guys..the way you talk, you'd think LawnBoys were made
    of gold! 
    
    Anyway I owned a LawnBoy for about 5 years. It has its drawbacks.
    Its a dirty machine. Mine "back then" blew the engine exhaust into
    the side bag, and at the time had no way to stop the blade. So when
    you went to empty the bag, you got a face full of smoke, grass, dirt,
    etc.. They may have a blade brake now which would help. Mixing fuel &
    oil is a pain, unless you already have tools that need it, like chain
    saw or weed wracker. Over all quality is average. The wheels & tires
    were junk, the selfpropel machanism was simple but the splines that
    push the wheeles wear out in a few years. The pull started on mine
    broke.......I could go on but this is too long as it is.
    
    My .02
    
    If you have < 1/2 acre and no hills and are in good health, anything
    will do.
    
    If you have 1/2 acre or more, or any hills, or don't especially like 
    mowing,  buy a self propelled good quality mower. The ones you mentioned
    Honda, Snapper, Toro are good.
    
    PS. I have a Honda SX214 myself, and its not indestructible either 
        nomatter what you might here..
    
    DC
    

    
    I got a Toro at Teds in marlboro a few years back. Its not inexpensive,
    but in my opinion you get what you pay for. I have a big yard to cut,
    so I wanted something that would (self powered) move along at almost
    a running pace. Which is why I picked the Toro 3 speed, kawasaki 5hp
    self propeled rear bagger. At the time is was the best unit toro made. 
    For a small yard I'm sure an inexpensive mower would be fine. For
    anything with hills and a half acre or more, spend the money and get
    the best you can afford. At the time I was buying I sampled Toro,
    Ariens, Honda (way over priced), and John Deer
    
    Steve
    
    

    
    
    
    I've got a snapper I bought 11 years ago. Has a briggs&stratton engine
    that takes a licken and keeps on ticken. This sucker still has the
    original spark plug and still runs like its is new. The oil has been
    changed maybe 4 times in that 11 years. The original blade finally wore
    out this year and I replaced it. I had it sharpened at the beginning of
    every season up until it wore out. Just got to thin and had to be
    replaced. Now adays the newer blades have three holes drilled in
    them that become "opened" when the blade material becomes to thin.
    The body of this mower still looks new when I clean the dust and grass
    from it.  I clean the filter often especially when I power rake.
    
    Well worth the money.

    I am looking at purchasing a riding mower.  Yesterday I looked at 
    a Husgavarna (sp).  This mower has a 14hp B&S, 46" cut and four
    wheel steering.  I tested it out and it turns on a dime which is a 
    big plus.  This is a demo unit and they are asking $1500.   Has
    anybody got any opinions on this brand and or model??  Anyone have
    one???
    
    Thanks, Colin
    

    re: .11
    Well, they make great chainsaws and motocross cycles....
    

And sewing machines...

    
    
    	When I looked at Husky tractors, I found out that
    they were built by MTD.  You can probably get the same
    mower cheaper if it doesn't have the Husquavarna name
    on it.
    
    I love my husky chainsaw.
    
    Scott
    

I bought a 3.0HP Briggs & Stratton Brand X model from Ann & Hope 
18 years ago. Cost was $69. I changed the oil after every season.

This weekend, I had to retire the mower for safety reasons.
If you need a plain push mower, I'd go with the cheapest
model with a BS engine.

Gim

I've been thinking about putting one the new Snapper "Ninja" blades on
my Snapper rider. At $79.95, I'd like to know if they work as well as
the ads claim they do...

For those not familiar with it, the Ninja is a sort of X-shaped blade which
supposedly chops the clippings into _very_ fine pieces. (I don't bag my
clippings, I just let 'em rot...)


Steve

    	For $80, I think I'd just let it rot. I am one of those individuals
    that was plagued with fast growing green grass year round at my other
    house. I cut it short, I leave the clippings, I never weed, water, lime, 
    fertilize, or rake and still I get that damn fast growing green grass 8-|
    
    	Makes me want to plant cement, it grows slower ;-)

    Has anyone ever had there hydrostatic drive system fail and
    if so how much $$$ to fix it, I'm currently in market for a 
    new mower.

    Thanks
    Rich

    Rich,
    	I've owned a 16hp Homelite by Simplicity Hydorstatic since 1976.
    	Only service it's ever needed is changing the fluid.  This may
    	not tell you repair/replacement costs are but answers at least
    	part of your reliablity question.
    
    Frank

    I've owned an International Cub Cadet with hydrostatic drive for about 
    17 years.  Never a problem.  My uncle owned one for over 20 years, with
    no problem, and he used his a LOT.  The tractor engine wore out before
    the hydrostatic drive did.

    hmmm, I just had an offline message indicating my weight might
    have something to do with the life span of the mower. I wonder
    what they were trying to tell me? They must have seen me before.

    Rich

    
    re: my weight might have something to do with life span....
    
    was that a  message from a friend?

    
    He used to be.....

    What are the recommendations for a good push mower, with EXCELLENT
    bagging capabilities ?

    Today I have a 15+ yea old Toro with an aluminum deck, BS engine and 
    a side bag that I would  like to replace.
    
/mc

Check out the most recent Consumer Reports review of mowers - my recollection
was that it said most all of them were fine with bagging.  Some were more
convenient than others.  

				Steve

15+ years with a Toro Lawnmower and it is still running. 


I would stick with the Toro. I purchased a Toro Recycler mulcher with a
optional rear bag last year. It's worth the extra $100 for not having to bag
all the time. cost was $319 without the bag. Bag was $60.

Dave

   

    
    I suggest you go with a rear bagger, side baggers always get in the
    way at some point (e.g along shrubs, flowers...).

    re. 10
    
    >The wheels and tires are junk
    
    My lawnboy is 12 years old and is till on the original wheels/tires

I've been using my Lawn Boy for 25 years. Still has the original everything.
Wouldn't trade it for anything. 

    i just bought a simplicty mulching lawnmower, I love it.
    They had lawnboys also and I compared them side by side and
    bought the simplicity,(both were the same price). The simplicty
    looked and felt better built and has a double blade. I used it
    last week and it does a job chewing up those leaves, no raking
    for me this year, and my lawn will well feed.
    
    Tony