Conference 7.286::home_work

    It doesn't sound to me like a retaining wall will be adequate.
    I had some experience with a similar situation before, and was advised
    by numerous "experts", including several contractors and a civil
    engineer, that the "right" thing to do would be to dig out the dirt
    from under the foundation one section at a time (how big a "section"
    is depends on how much weight is on the wall and how strong you
    think the existing wall is), then pour a proper footing, set forms,
    and pour a complete foundation wall underneath the existing wall.
    (Pouring this wall would probably have to be done in layers, since
    you can only get in from the front).
    

    One thing that might make it a little easier is to look at the sill
    that the foundation is supporting. If it is strong and in one piece
    (if the house is as old as you think it is probably a large beam),
    and if the span is not too great, you might be able to get some
    jacks under it and remove the whole existing wall, then pour footing
    and a complete new wall.
    
    This is obviously time consuming and labor intensive, but it is
    the only way (I know of) to get the proper support. If it has to
    be done this way, I frankly wouldn't recommend doing it.

    - Ram

    
    This is not going to be easy to explain, but here goes:
    
    	I have a retaining wall (concrete) along one side of my driveway.
    At the end of the wall are the stairs to the front door. The stairs
    are curved going up so that one side is the proper width and the
    other side is about 2" wide (I swear it's true). At the top of the
    stairs is a landing, three more stairs (these are "normal") and
    then a landing at the front door. Underneath both landings and the
    three stairs is a "room" that houses the holding tank for the well.
    We go into this room through a door in the basement. What I would
    like to have done is this:
    
    	Remove the retaining wall and the curved stairs. Replace stairs
    with ones that come straight done to a landing take a 90 degree
    turn to continue down the rest of the stairs to the driveway.
    Where the retaining wall was I would tier (sp??) into some number
    of levels until it was level with the front lawn.
    
    Now my question: Who would I have remove the wall and stairs?? We
    could do the landscaping ourselves (the tiered lawn). Who would
    I have put in new stairs as described or could we do that ourselves??
    The labor that wee won't do, how much will it cost me?? I figure
    this is not going to be inexpensive, but I may live with the way
    things are if it's going to cost me an arm and a leg.
    
    Thanks for any help/suggestions/advice??
    
    Patty

    
    Doesn't anyone have any ideas for me??? I don't even have an idea
    as to where to start looking to have someone remove the wall.
    
    Patty

    You need to talk to a mansonary contractor. You don't say how many
    steps up you are speaking of or how high the retaining wall.
    My guess as to cost (based on an estimate I had for a small job)
    would be 2 arms, a leg and your first born son. When you get a mason
    to give you an estimate let us know.
    
    Alan

    
    Wellllll, you'll have to get a contractor with a backhoe and dump
    truck to remove the wall and any dirt.  Contractors get about $50/hr
    for backhoe work.  Then get a mason or cement contractor to build
    what you want.  As for cost, depends on what your definition of
    inexpensive is.  Get some local contractors there to give you
    estimates.  Good luck!  With the project, and with getting contractors
    to give you estimates...
    
    Phil

    
    The retaining wall is about 5 feet high and maybe 12-15 feet long.
    I don't know how many staris there are, maybe 10 or 12. At least
    I have some place to start looking.
    
    Thanks
    Patty
    
    

    If it's a girl, you gotta keep trying 'til you get it right!  ;^)
    
    It sounds like a big job. How big are you planning on making your
    terraces? Are you planning a retaining wall for each level?
    One potential problem is the footing for the existing retaining
    wall. A 5' high wall that has been around for a while will have
    a good sized footing underneath it. Does your driveway meet the
    wall, if so you could come face to face with the domino theory
    of demolition.
    
    Alan

Are you going to rebuild the wall out of concrete or use something like railroad
ties?  If the later, you won't need a mason and can keep your firstborn child.
Railroad ties projects can be DYI if you've got a strong back and something to
cut them with (like a chainsaw!).  The good ones cost about $10-$15 apiece and
average aroung $150lbs (I've never been actually able to get on a scale).

-mark

    
    I don't think we will have a problem with the driveway as our driveway
    is dirt. When we terrace I had planned on using railroad ties as
    the retaining wall on each level. This we woulld be doing ourselves
    with the help of my brother-in-law as he did this down the whole
    side yard at his own house. So all I would need done is to have
    the wall and stairs removed and possibly new stairs put in unless
    my brother-in-law says we can also do this ourselves.
    
    Thanks for all the help and input. As soon as I get some estimates
    I'll post them here and see what you guys have to say then.
    
    Patty

    I didn't see an existing keyword for this, so here goes...
    
    Our new old house had a back door opening off the mudroom towards
    the side of the house.  We've removed the mudroom and put a lav
    there, and are putting a new deck and back door elsewhere.  The
    old door is now a window and some new wall. 
    
    The old back door opened onto a 3'x7' deck, with about 2 steps up
    from the walkway which led to the front of the house.  The backyard
    itself, however, is at basement level (on a hill), so the back of
    the deck was 6' above ground.  There's a 4' high (sagging) retainer
    wall next to the deck, over the back yard.  Underneath the deck
    was empty space:  The ground was held back _by wood lattice_!  Needless
    to say, the deck was pretty well rotted after 56 years anyway.
    
    I'm having a mason come and quote the cost of putting in a 7' retainer
    wall (3-4' high) to replace the old lattice, and a concrete stairway
    leading down where the old one led up, so the side walkway will
    lead down to the backyard.  Since masons are probably no cheaper
    than plumbers, I may wish to do a DIY solution at least temporarily
    to keep the dirt from collapsing where the side deck used to be.
    Any suggestions?  Do I need to stack railroad ties, or can I use
    pressure-treated wood (fencing?)?  Pointers are appreciated...
           fred

    You can make this out of stacked PT landscaping timbers.  These are
    3 1/2 x 5 1/2.  They have 2 flat sides so they can be easily stacked
    (like Lincoln Logs).  You have to do some digging so that some
    of the timbers go into the side of the hill to hold everything in
    place.  The timbers are held together with 50D nails.
    These landscaping timbers are the cheapest solution ($4.50 for an
    8' piece).  You can also consider PT 6x6's or RR ties.
    You've probably seen this kind of wall a lot.  The price
    for the concrete retaining wall will be the same as a foundation
    wall ($32/linear foot to set the forms, plus concrete.)  Building
    it yourself out of wood is much cheaper.

    You might check the "landscaping" note...in the 2000-2050 range...
    
    I had a landscaper do the retaining wall at my house...about 40'
    of 6x6 PT timber ranging from 1-3+ feet in height.  Of course, I
    was also having other things done at the time, but surely they
    could do it and maybe cheaper than a mason.
    
    Deb
    

    re: .2
    
    I just checked thru those notes, and didn't see anything about wooden
    retaining walls.  Can you help point to the specific note?  Thanks.

    We tried the "professional" landscaper roue last year.  I figure
    that if you take the time you would spend lookng for a competent
    landscaper who will work for a reasonable prince and come when he
    says he will, you will save time doing it yourself.
    
    We built a wall about 3 feet high out of 6" x 6" PT landscape timbers
    ($10 - $10 for an 8' long timber).  Like any such structure, it
    will be stronger if it isn't straigh.  If you want it to LOOK stright,
    make it "E" shaped, with the prongs of the "E" buried in the bank.
    Leave or drill some holes for drainage.
    
    We used 12" spikes for nailing the timbers together, and 60d nails (I
    think) for toe-nailing the joints.  However, the way to make it really
    solid is to get some re-bar (that's steel bar used for reinforcing
    concrete) and use it like giant nails 3 or three feet long.  You have
    to drill 1/2" or 5/8" holes first, of course, then pound it in with a
    big sledgehammer. This will sure stop the wall from bowing.  And the
    shape should stop it from falling over. 
    
    The bottom couple of timbers should be burried beneath the ground
    to act like a footing, and stop the wall from sliding.  If it can't
    bow, slide or fall, I figure that it should stay put.
    
    This will be much cheaper than masonry, and will probably look better
    too.
    
    	Andrew
    

    The landscaping note is 2015....and the recommendation I made was
    reply 3.
    JUst in case you want to get some estimates for having someone else
    do the work....
    

    
    Re: .4
    
    	I'm getting ready to build my own retaining walls out of the
    6" x 6" x 8' PT timbers.  (Boy are those critters heavy!  I had
    to haul 30 of 'em from the driveway to the patio...  Anyone know
    how heavy they are?  .40CCA if it makes a difference.)  I am planning
    on using the re-bars as big nails as you suggested, but I've had
    a slight implementation problem -- how do you drill the holes through
    5 or 6 timbers and have them all line up nicely?  With each timber
    being 6 inches (oops, 5.5 inches ;-) thick, trying to drill a vertical
    hole to match up with a hole on the timber below would be difficult
    due to exact hole placement, drilling slightly off of pure vertical,
    etc.  What's the secret?  (Other than getting a 3 foot long drill
    bit? ;-)
    
    							-craig

    	
    	An aside question. 
    
    	I've asked this before some place else in this file but never
    got an answer, so I'll give it a try again.
    
    	Does any one know where I can get REAL railroad ties? And don't
    say pull them out from some old tracks. I need about 5 or 6 to
    build up an exsiting wall. I did get a source from a old neighbor
    but min order was 100 at $8-$9 each. Any one need a few? 
    
    	Thanks all....
    
    ...Dave
    

It's been a couple of years but when I lived in Peperell (MA, south of 
Nashua, NH) there was a lot next to a gas station in the center of town 
(just one main street, can't miss it) with a bunch of real RR ties 
stacked up in large piles. If you don't mind the drive out there go talk 
to the owner of the service station, they may belong to him, if they 
don't, he probably knows who.

It's possible they're still there.
Chuck

    RE:.7 - Where to get real railroad ties........
    
    There is a place in Waltham MA on rt. 117 that sells real ties.
    I don't remember the full name, real helpful I know, but it is
    Plywood something or other. The store is located on rt117 just 
    west of Rt.128, when travelling west on 117 it is on your left.
    (Across from Standard Electric, if that helps, just further west
    on 117)
    
    They will deliver within a 20 miles for free, there is a charge for
    a greater distance but that depends on how much you buy, the price 
    of the ties varries depending on quantity, I think the starting price 
    was $12.00/tie.  If I remember I'll try to ask my husband if he knows
    the full name of the place.
    
    Kathy
                                                           

    There is a place in Nashua.
    
    Dont know the name of the place but take exit 6 (Nashua Mall) exit
    off the highway, head toward town and the place is a block on the
    left. They also sell used bricks.
    
    

re Note 2239.8 by CENSRD::SCANLAND:

> It's been a couple of years but when I lived in Pepperell (MA, south of 
> Nashua, NH) there was a lot next to a gas station in the center of town 

> It's possible they're still there.

They're still there -- one Route 113 in East Pepperell.

Bob

>        	I've asked this before some place else in this file but never
>    got an answer, so I'll give it a try again.

    I've seen this question before and have answered it.
    
    You can get them at RR square in East Pepperell.  There are stacks
    of them with prices and a phone number.
    

    	Sorry .12
    
    	Your right, I did get an answer before I forgot about it because
    Pepperell is a little far for me to drive. But maybe if the price
    is right and my new truck comes in soon I'll take the trip. 
    
    	For all you others I'm in Hudson MA. 
    
    
    	Thanks all........
    
    ...Dave
    

    Back to the original question on drilling deep holes.  You can get
    extensions for spade bits.  One extension plus the bit can give
    you about 24" of drilling depth.  You might be able to add another
    extension for even more depth, although I've never done it myself.
    It will be slow since wood chip ejection can only be done by pulling
    the bit out of the hole.  A drill with a lot of power will help
    too.
    
    Bob

re .14:

If you are going that deep, you might want to use an auger type bit
instead of a spade type.  I'd think that the spade bit would get less and
less effective at pulling up the chips the deeper you went, while the
auger would block the chips behind it.  (Of course, you might also wind
up wedging the auger irretreivably unless you are real careful about
pulling it clear frequently to discharge the wood chips.)

/Dave

    For that depth I'd go with an auger bit.  They are available in
    quite long lengths - electricians use them.  You might also get
    by with drilling through one beam and partly into the next to
    mark it, then removing the top beam and finish drilling the one
    below it and partly into the next one, etc.  The resulting holes
    might not be exactly straight, but as long as all the holes lined
    up I don't think you'd have much of a problem pounding in a piece
    of rebar.  You'd want a "loose" fit - say 1/2" rebar in a 9/16"
    hole or something.  By the time you drove it through 3' worth of
    holes it would probably end up being pretty tight.

    The extensions I've seen (at Spag's) are something like 12" (or
    maybe 15"?) in length, and require a 5/8" hole or bigger to admit
    the socket that holds the actual drill bit.  I think that they also
    have auger bits in various sizes, about 12" in length.  Didn't see
    anything longer, but you could ask a clerk.
    
    Then too, I guess that there are other places that carry drill bits.
    
    Dick

    I have a drill extension.  It holds the drill (or auger) in place
    using a set screw.  I've found that it's not strong enough for
    an application like this.  The set screw strips right off when I
    use a big auger and my big drill.  It's works fine for hard to 
    reach locations, and things like that.
    
    I'd recommend what Steve Wellcome said.  Drill thru one layer at
    a time into the next piece down.  Then remove the top one and drill thru
    the next one, etc.

    
    	In the past, I have taken the long auger bits, cut off the end
    that goes into the auger hand drill, and then use it in the electric
    drill.  Most of the shanks are no bigger than 3/8 so they fit in
    most standard drills.

    re-.1
    I have done the same thing before and that works very well. It is
    important to file the threads off of the screw lead point otherwise
    the bit tends to go too fast wedgeing chips around the bit. I almost
    lost a 3' bit in a retaining wall because it was stuck. BTW-a 3'
    bit will run around $60 a very expensive piece of re-bar.
    
    -j
    

    
    I'm finishing up a P.T. wall project and found an easier (and cheaper)
    way. The bottom two rows are drilled with a jobbers length bit (3/8
    x about 12" or so). Then I drive a four foot section of 3/8 rebar
    down flush (except for that ##4%6 ledge). After putting on the top
    row I drill down again with the same bit, keeping perfectly straight.
    I then drive a 3' section of rebar slowly into the hole until it
    bottoms. Then comes the sledge hammer and the rebar is DRIVEN flush.
    
    I didn't catch on to this right away and a lot of money, time and
    bits were lost in finding a good way to do it. The rebar drives
    quite well and though I've been afraid of it skewing to one side
    - never happened. 
    
    Also, it's worthwhile to use a 1/4 " pilot in putting in those 60D
    nails.

    
    Forgot to mention, the wall varies in rows of P.T.s but the highest
    is about 8 rows. Along with the rebar I used multile 'deadman' holds
    for security. 

    
    I've looked through all the replies in this note, and while I found
    them very useful, I need further clarification.
    
    I need to build a retaining wall approx 6 feet high.  I would like
    to use railroad ties, but if I do, should I still use deadmen in
    addition to re-bar?  It's a rather steep slope, and I'm looking
    for as much support as possible.
    
    Also, how expensive is re-bar?  Is it sold in standard lengths?
    
    Finally, is it true that these railroad ties can weigh upwards of
    100 lbs for an 8 foot section?
    

>    Also, how expensive is re-bar?  Is it sold in standard lengths?

Re-bar's cheap.  A couple of bucks for a 20' standard section (they'll usually 
cut it into a couple of pieces for you at the lumberyard so you can transport 
it).

Paul

If you think 100 lbs is heavy, don't use railroad ties.  I've never seen a tie
that weighed less than 150 lbs and probably average closer to 175, though I've
never actually put one on a scale. It's very likely they even weigh MORE than
that! Oak is not light.

One doesn't pick up railroad ties and carry them around.  One picks up
one end, moves it, then the other end, etc. 

If you want to go 6' high, I sure wouldn't trust rebar alone and would go with
the deadmen.

-mark

    Back to my original topic...
    
    I've been rethinking it, trying to reduce the amount of wall needed.
    Instead of building a 7' retainer wall to the steps (at the high
    part of the yard), maybe I can fill in the hole and put the steps
    at the back (low part).  Then I only need the 3' wide steps which
    will function as a retainer wall.  Perhaps an illustration:
    
                          |
                          | house
                    ------|
            side    |     |
            yard    |     |
                    | hole|
                    |     |
        |           |     |
     fence          |     |
        |           |     |
        |           |     |          |
        | --------- |_____|__________|
        old wall (ca. 5')
        |
        |      back yard
    

    Now there used to be a deck over the hole.  The old wall (about
    5' wide and 3' high) is unsound anyway.  Rather than keep the
    hole with steps at the front (top of illustration), I can fill the
    hold and put steps in the back, with the new wall.
    
    Questions:  1) What's the best fill?  Gravel with loam surface, or
    loam?  A Westford yard quoted $138 delivered for either, recommending
    gravel. 
    2)  Should the steps be built first, and if so, what's the best
    way?  Stacked cinderblocks 3' high?  The steps will be the retainer
    wall too.
    
    Thanks again,
         fred

    
    Sorry but I can't get a 'feel' for your illustration. For me the
    only thing worse than drawing 'text' graphics is reading them. However,
    on your question of ties vs P.T. - I was faced with a lot of walls
    for my yard, and looked at rocks, ties and P.T.  Easiest but most
    expensive was P.T.  My favorite was ties, but they lost out along
    with rocks, as too heavy for me working alone.
    
    The rebar in P.T. or ties is like glueing cabinets together - but
    in both cases you still use nails. (Different reasons and purposes)
    
    Deadman construction is my suggestion for any more than 3 rows of
    P.T. or 4 rows of ties.  In South Gardner near the R.R. tracks there's
    an excellent example of a tie wall that will last for hundreds of
    years.  Every other row consist of ties laid out as deadmen.  Must
    have cost a fortune and used a lot of labor and equipment, but it'll
    only be done once.  
    
    My P.T. wall uses a deadman every three rows, no more than 8-10
    feet apart. 

    After searching through all the notes on retaining walls, etc, I
    guess this is the best place for my question.
    Be prepared, greenhorn in your midst! We just bought the 3-family
    home we have been living in for 5 years, so I am familiar with the
    situation and am now empowered to do something about it ($$$).
    The front yard is sloped to the sidewalk, and the slope is washing
    away.  I have tried, over the past few years, to use plants to hold
    it back, but no go.  So, we would like to put a wall along
    perpendicular to the edge of the sidewalk, then fill in the slope
    to make it level.  Because of the urban setting, landscaping timbers
    will not work (my neighbor has kids climbing all over his timbers
    and attempting to push them out of place constantly).  So, pour
    a concrete wall?  The area we would need a wall built is triangular
    shaped, from 3 1/2 feet high to about 4 inches high, with a stairway
    in the middle.
    
    |A
    |
    |3 1/2 feet           |stairs|
    |                     |      |             4 "   B|
    |_____________________|      |____________________|
    <-----------------------approx. 30 feet ---------->
    Since I'm no artist, try and visualize this.  Draw a diagonal line
    from point A to point B, and you will get the idea.  Our street
    is a hill, by the way.                           
    Is a concrete wall a totally bizarre idea? If so, please suggest
    something else. At this rate, I lose about 2 inches of the banking
    for every downpour of rain, and the lot is small enough!
    
    As I said, we are new at the homeowning bit, so any part of this
    that we can do ourselves will be a plus (like putting up the forms,
    etc)
    
    Sarah
    
                
    
    
    

    
    Re:  .28
    
    A stone wall with mortar holding the stones together can be 
    very attractive.  Unfortunately, it's not cheap.
    

    Brick walls are permanent and look nice particularly if the house
    is brick.  Same problem as stone wall - $$$.

    I also vote for the landscaping timbers.  They are very nice looking,
    and are not as $$$ as the other options mentioned.  
    
    Good luck, and congratulations on your homeownership!!!
    

If your neighbors landscape timber wall is falling over it probably wasn't
properly installed using deadmen (somehow I can't see calling them deadpeople).
I'm sure more details on them exist earlier in this note.

-mark

    There was a mini-home show at the Pheasant Lane Mall in Nashua this
    past weekend.  One of the exhibitors was a landscaping supplier
    from Amherst, NH.  They had a couple of different types of DIY stones
    for retaining walls.  One used interlocking stones, for a fairly
    solid wall, why the other used fiberglass rods to connect relatively
    flat stones, which permits both a solid and a sparse wall.  I found
    them all attractive, though I have no idea of how much they cost
    or how well they'll stand up.
    
       Gary

I found out at the Worcester Home Show that the local precast concrete
companies have the same thing mentioned in .34.  It is a system of
cast concrete "stones" that you just pile up to make a retaining wall.
You lay them dry -- they interlock so that frost heaves won't dislodge
them.  You can space them out or lay them tight to each other.  And you
can make a 5' high retaining wall out of them -- the max for dry laid
squared stone is only 3'.  I forget the price (it's in my notes at home),
but I think it was just a few dollars per square foot of wall.  No dead
men are needed -- you just lay them on gravel and backfill with gravel.

They come in two styles -- basic cheap concrete (ideal for a back retaining
wall that you don't see from the house), and something with a rough front 
surface with some sort of exposed crystal stuff in it -- reminiscent of a 
split piece of granite.  I wouldn't mistake this stuff for real stone, but 
it looked pretty good.

	Larry

    Thanks for the replies.  I'll check the local pre-cast places for
    ideas and prices.  It does sound much more attractive than concrete.
    Unfortunately, I was on vacation during the Worcester Home Show...I
    would have loved to have seen those "stones". 
    
    Sarah
    

Here's some addresses for precast stone places:

	CHASE PRECAST CORP.
	70 E Brookfield Rd
	North Brookfield MA 01535
	508-867-8312 or 800-242-7314 in MA

	Henry Camosse & Son, Inc.
	61 Southwest Cutoff
	Worcester MA 01604
	508-755-6193

CHASE had the nicer looking interlocking wall stones, at $11 per
square foot of wall face.  At Camosse I think they were a bit 
cheaper, but I'm not sure.  However, Camosse also had some amazing 
fake stones for facades that I *would* swear were real stones.
They even show them used on retaining walls.  10 basic types,
40 types counting color differences.  They're impressive!

	Enjoy,
	Larry

    We decided to go with Chase for the interlocking block wall. The
    order is in, delivery is about 2 weeks, which means completion
    in three weeks.  I'll let you know how it looks, and if anyone is
    interested in taking a look at it when completed, send me mail and
    I"ll give you the address (Worcester, MA)
    By the way, the blocks come in two colors - grey granite and brown
    (more of a brick color).  The brown is .40 more per brick (we went
    with the grey :)  All totaled, this is definitely the least expensive
    method other than landscaping ties.  Wish us new DIY'ers lots of
    luck!!!
    
    Sarah
    

    In the last 38 notes there were several references to 'deadman'
    in retaining walls, can someone explain to me what they are and
    how they work?
    
    Building my first retaining wall - Paul

    A dead man is a kind of T-shaped structure that attaches to the back
    of the retaining wall so that the base of the T is at the wall and
    the 'arms' a parralel. It's then buried and keeps the wall from
    bowing under the pressure of the dirt behind it...
    
                 Aerial view
    
                 || <-retaining wall             
      Lower      ||        |
      ground     |---------|  <- dead man (buried)
                 ||        |
                 ||
    
    Edd

    re: .-1
    
    Thanks, now I understand, can you give me any idea how many feet the
    deadman should be from the retaining wall.  Also if I have several
    deadmans should they connect? ie:
    
    >             || <-retaining wall             
    >  Lower      ||                      |
    >  ground     |-----------------------|  <- dead man (buried)
    >             ||                      |
    >             ||                      |
    >             ||                      |
    >             |----how many feet?-----|
    >             ||                      |
    >             ||                      |
    >             ||                      |
    >             ||
    
    Thanks in advance - Paul

    Can't help with those questions. Maybe one of the other noters?
    
    Edd

    I saw picture taken by a company which sell railroad ties.  They also
    build the walls or have people build the walls for them.  The dead men
    were half a railroad tie or 4 ft from the wall.  They had a deadman
    every 2nd or 3rd course and they were alternated so that they were not
    all in the same place.  The picture below is looking at the finished
    wall and the * represents the end of the T.
    
    _____________________________________________
    _____*____________*______________*___________
    _____________________________________________
    __________*_______________*_______________*__
    _____________________________________________
    _____*____________*______________*___________
    
    This meant that the wall was started 4 feet away from the existing
    embankment and then back filled.  These people also had heavy equipment
    and expected the wall to last "forever" in a commerical enviroment.

	Re: .41

	I made my retaining wall's deadmen around 4 feet long.  No particular
reason except that it felt right.  As to connecting them, I wouldn't bother.
If you backfill well (ie. pack the dirt in), the deadmen shouldn't move at all.
Connecting them would make for a much harder project and probably wouldn't add
much of anything to the strength.  (ie. if you've backfilled/packed well, not
having them connected will still yield a strong wall.  If you don't backfill
and pack well, connecting them will only be connecting multiple weak areas --
no great benefit.)

	Have fun!  ;-)

								-craig

    Hi,
    
    I'm building a retaining wall and am planning on using PT timbers.  I
    saw in another note that a chainsaw was needed to cut RR ties.  What
    should I use to cut PT timbers?  I dont know what size timbers I'm
    going to use yet.  I dont have a chainsaw, so that may limit the size
    timber I use (the wall is only going to be 2 1/2 feet high).
    
    Thanks...Rhonda

    
    I've cut PT 4x4 posts with a circular saw. The cuts were exposed, so I
    made a simple three-sided collar out of scrap 1x to act as a guide.
                         With this, if you go up one side and down the
         -----------     other with the saw at it's deepest setting, you
         |XXXXXXXXX|     get a pretty clean cut. (If you make this a
         |XXXXXXXXX|     four-sided collar, you can also use it for
         |XXXXXXXXX|     decorative routing.)
         |XXXXXXXXX|
         |XXXXXXXXX|     For anything bigger than 4x4, I'd definitely
                         buy/borrow/rent a chain saw.

re: .45

If you're uncomfortable using a chainsaw, rent/borrow a friend's sawzall. It
will cut the timbers, although slower than either a chainsaw or
circular saw.  IMHO, it's safer than either of the others.


Chris

>>If you're uncomfortable using a chainsaw, rent/borrow a friend's sawzall. It

A little harder to keep a square edge though.

bjm

    Thanks...using a chainsaw would be fine, but since I have a sawzall
    I'll use it.  I didnt know if the sawzall would be damaged by the
    larger timbers, ie bigger than 4x4.
    
    Thanks...Rhonda

Hi,

	You can also rent large skill saw's. 14" and 16" are available.
They will also make a much better cut than a sawzall or chainsaw would.
They tend to be a little more difficult to use than a standard skillsaw  because
of the added weight but if you're comfortable with the small saws you'll do 
fine with the larger ones too with some practice. 

	P

    
    
    Does anyone know a good source for retaining wall blocks.
    I'm referring to the blocks which look sort of like stone,
    and are held together with fiberglass pegs.  I've seen a
    lot of them on T.V. home shows and advertised by landscaping
    companies at home shows, but cannot find a good selection of
    them anywhere for D.I.Y.
    
    The only place I've seen them is Sommerville Lumber in Bedford
    N.H. where they had only one variety which seemed very pricy.
    (approx. $5.00 per 8"x12" block)
    
    I'm looking for something in the southern N.H. area.
    
    Thanks,
    Dan

    I saw these at Builder's Square in Nashua.

                       <<< Note 4922.0 by SEIC::DFIELD >>>


	They are also available from Moores Lumber (various locations in 
	north central Massachusetts and Southern New Hampshire.  They cost 
	$4.39/block @150 blocks/square.  The cost includes retaining 2 
	retaining pins per block.

	The better news is the manufacture is located in Westford and is 
	willing to sell direct on reasonable size orders and deliver on 
	large orders.  I will bring in the information tomorrow.


	Brian

    
    
    I found the place.
    
    In Westford off of Power Road is a manufacturer of these 
    blocks.  Their called "Ideal" or "Pavers by Ideal".
    
    They sell two different types of blocks.  One is a self-stacking
    square garden wall type block.  The other is the type I'm looking
    for, which is a round stone-like face and a hollow core back which
    looks sort of like a stone wall when complete.  The second block
    is called "Stonewall" and comes in a light brown or granite color
    for $3.85 per block (8" high x 12" long).  The cap stones for the 
    "Stonewall" block are $2.95 (4" high x 12" long).
    
    This is much less than the prices I've seen at Sommerville or 
    Builder's Square.  There are only two drawbacks to this place:
    
    	1) They charge anywhere from $105 to $185 for trucking the 
    	   material.  If your buying a lot, as I plan to, then the 
    	   cost is well worth it.  Also, they will allow you to pick 
    	   up the material yourself, but at 40 lbs per block, that's
    	   a lot of trips for a typical pick-up truck.
    
    	2) No returns.
    
    T=I've decided to go with them for my project...  I'll let everyone
    know how it works out.  
    
    My wife actually visited the place during lunch and said it was
    amazing.  For anyone interested in bricks or pavers she says they have
    an amazing collection and will do custom work.  They manufacture right
    at this facility.
    
    Soon-to-be-aching-back-Dan

	Looking for RR ties, need about 50.  When I didn't need any
	I use to see them all over the place (next to garages, stack
	up in yards ...). I know that they can brought at place like
	HQ but was hoping to find them for a like less $$.


	Anywhere in the Northern Mass / Southern NH areas.

			Thanks in advance
			     Jim

I've seen these too, but only at the Moore's Hardware store in Littleton.  Nice
to know they're made nearby, and where I can get them cheaper.

I'm considering removing about 135 feet of retaining wall built from landscaping
timbers (and rotting), and replacing it with stone.  Incidentally, the brochure
I saw at Moore's indicated that these stones should only be used for walls up
to two feet in height.  The vast majority of mine is less than 18 inches high.

tim

    
    
    I know where there's a couple bundles with a "for sale" sign on them.
    Right next door to the Citco Gas station in Peperrell Mass.  
    
    Gary 
    

    
    
    The "Ideal" brochures talk about going all the way to 6 feet.
    The blocks have nylon pegs holding them together.  Also, higher
    walls use what is called a geogrid.  The geogrid is a netting that
    is hooked over the nylon pegs and then buried into the earth being
    retained.  
    
    They do say that walls over 4 feet typically require a building permit
    and before building any wall, check with your local building inspector.
    
    Your two foot wall would not require the geogrid.
    
    DJF
       

	Could you give dirctions or a phone number for these
	RR ties in Peperrell. 

			Thanks again for your help
				Jim

    About height of wall.  A contractor friend told me that in most towns
    (check with the town hall) any wall over the height of 4' needs to have
    a fence on top of it.  He suggested instead of one 6' wall, putting up
    a 4', moving back a foot or two, and then putting up another wall. 
    That way I'd have a 'terrace' thing but wouldn't need a fence.
    
    Karen
    

    
         The best place to buy RRT's is from Boston and Maine in Lowell.
     They have large piles of good used RRT's for only $2 each. They let
     you pick the ones you want.
    
                                           Randy    

	I need to build a retaining wall on my property.
I want to level off the back yard so that it is more usable.

I have never built a retaining wall before and am looking for 
any tips from those of you that have.  I've read a few books on
the subject, but they didn't get very detailed.  If you know of
a good reference book on this subject, let me know.

The wall will be composed of 3 sections shaped roughly like this
(except the angles shown here are much more severe for lack of better
 graphics, the wall is just slightly less than straight)
	 _____		
	/     \
       /       \

Each section is roughly 70' long, with the total length being 200'.
It starts at ground level on the left end, peaks at slightly less than
6' at the second joint, and ends at a height of around 3.5'.  Some wide
stairs will be built into the right wall, and also the middle wall.

I plan to use PT landscape timbers, 6"x6"x8'.

1) I need to know how often (horizontally and vertically) I need the deadmen.
   How long do the deadmen need to be?  the full 8'?  Are they attached to the
   ground at all, or does the weight of the fill keep them in place?

I plan to use ~12" crushed stone against the entire height of the wall for drainage 
with a perforated pipe at the base of the wall to carry the accumulated drainage away.

2) How often do I need to run drains out through the face of the wall?

3) Should I run the first few courses along the entire 200' length and then
   backfill some, then do the next set of courses and backfill again, etc.?
   
4) Are the "rough" timbers any more susceptible to rot than the smooth, planed timbers?
   Home Depot has the rough for $9.97, and the smooth for ~$15, both are .40 CCA.

5) I've read that I should use reinforcing rod to tie the timbers together: drill a pilot hole
   and pound a piece through it.  Is that stuff sold in small lengths?  how much $$?

6) Is 6' too high for landscape timbers to safely hold?  A landscaper told me that was the limit.

7) How many timbers will I need?  I calculated the area of the wall and the area of a timber face
    and came up with an overestimate of 200 timbers, does this sound about right?

8) What should I do to the ground to prepare it for the first level of timbers?  Do
   I need to make a base of sand or crushed stone, or can I just level off the existing
   ground and lay the first timber on that?  Should I run rods through the first course into
   the ground?


Many questions, all help is appreciated!!

Scott Apgar


    

From base note:
    
1) I need to know how often (horizontally and vertically) I need the deadmen.
   How long do the deadmen need to be?  the full 8'?  Are they attached to the
   ground at all, or does the weight of the fill keep them in place?

I plan to use ~12" crushed stone against the entire height of the wall for 
drainage with a perforated pipe at the base of the wall to carry the 
accumulated drainage away.

2) How often do I need to run drains out through the face of the wall?

3) Should I run the first few courses along the entire 200' length and then
   backfill some, then do the next set of courses and backfill again, etc.?
   
4) Are the "rough" timbers any more susceptible to rot than the smooth, planed 
   timbers? Home Depot has the rough for $9.97, and the smooth for ~$15, both 
   are .40 CCA.

5) I've read that I should use reinforcing rod to tie the timbers together: 
   drill a pilot hole and pound a piece through it. Is that stuff sold in 
   small lengths?  how much $$?

6) Is 6' too high for landscape timbers to safely hold?  A landscaper told me 
   that was the limit.

7) How many timbers will I need?  I calculated the area of the wall and the 
   area of a timber face and came up with an overestimate of 200 timbers, does 
   this sound about right?

8) What should I do to the ground to prepare it for the first level of timbers?
   Do I need to make a base of sand or crushed stone, or can I just level off 
   the existing ground and lay the first timber on that?  Should I run rods 
   through the first course into the ground?
    

    An issue of The Family Handyman from early this year had a good
    feature on building retaining walls from 6x6 (actually 5x6) P.T.
    timbers.  They did go into such things as to deadman spacing,
    drainage, maximum height, etc.  Sorry, don't remember the month,
    but it was probably in the first quarter of the year.

    The issue is May 1993 and I think the title is Timber Retaining Wall

    What is a deadman?
    
    Marc H.

    You can actually build wooden retaining walls MUCH higher than 6', but the
    construction techniques are somewhat different, and involve moving
    rather a lot of earth.
    
    A "deadman" is a timber layed perpendicular to the wall such that
    one end if it is in the wall and the other is buried in the earth
    behind the wall.
    
    -----|-----|-----|-----    wall
         |     |     |	       deadmen
    
    kind of like this

    Re: .5
    Thanks...
    
    Marc H.

    
    ... and, depending on the source for retaining wall plans they
        often recommend building your deadmen with an extra cross 
    	piece as in this top view:
    
    		_____ _____ _____
		     |     |
    		     |     |
                    -|-   -|-
    
    	The deadmen are buried into the hillside that is being "retained"
    	and the extra cross pieces make it more difficult for them to 
    	be pulled free.
    
    								- Mac

    
    
    	Does anyone out there have a copy of The Family Handyman, 
    from May 1993, that I can borrow to copy the article?
    
    I checked a couple of bookstores and they didn't have it on the shelf
    anymore.  I got a number for reprints, but would rather just get a copy
    locally if possible.
    
    thanks
    
    Scott
    

Re: .8

I'll copy the article for you.

	Steve

    Could you copy that article for me too?
    I plan to contract out the building
    of a wall but would like to know
    as much as possible about the 
    technique before its done.
    
    -Brian

    
    We have a home that has a family room with a garage underneath.  As a
    result, there is a retaining wall made of large rocks on the side of
    the driveway.  So as you go down into the driveway, you will be driving
    by a wall of rocks on your left.
    
    About two days ago, our area had a massive rainfall and caused the sand
    under the lawn to seep through the rocks (i.e., retaining wall).  This
    sand left about two inches of itself on the grass below the retaining
    wall and another two inches of itself in the middle of the driveway. 
    Also, certain sections of our lawn adjacent to the rocks caved in due to
    the sand having rushed out from underneath it.
    
    My question is in regard to rocks used as a retaining wall.  Should the
    rocks have cement in between the cracks to prevent dirt/sand from
    escaping?
    
    The ideal retaining wall is a cement wall (as opposed to rocks). The
    problem is that the cement wall does not look very natural at all.  How 
    can you put up a rock retaining wall to get a natural look and still have
    little or no sand seeping in between the rocks?  Perhaps build a cement
    wall and put rocks in front of it to hide the cement?
    
    Thanks in advance,
    
    Dennis
    

    
    There exista a heavy duty fabric that holds back sand but allows
    drainage. It's used to prevent drains (holed pipes and/or crushed
    stone) from choking with sand; I saw it used recently on Home Time to
    help stabilize a sand bed for a brick patio; I believe it's also used
    under a bed of gravel for temporary construction roads. Perhaps a layer
    of that behind a (natural) rock wall would keep the sand from seeping
    through.
    

    
    Stuff the crevices with bulb fibre and plant with ivy, sedum and other
    drought-resistant rock plants.  The roots bind the soil and prevent
    it washing out.  Sedum takes off like wildfire and really softens
    the appearance of a fieldstone wall. 

What .1 is referring to is known as "landscape fabric".  It's usually sold
as a weed block.  You can find it at most any garden supply store.  This
is often recommended behind retaining walls for exactly the purpose you
require.

					Steve

    
    Some smaller stone added behind the large rock during
    construction would have helped also...
    
    

    
    This morning, my wife saw the so-called landscapers "repairing" the
    areas where the lawn has caved in because the sand seeped through the
    cracks between the rocks leaving nothing for the grass to sit on.  They
    repaired this by filling the holes with more sand!  This means that
    during the next massive rainstorm, I will get the same result.
    
    I have placed a call with them this morning indicating that they are
    not doing their job correctly and will tell them of the suggestions I
    have seen in this note stream.
    
    Dennis
    

    
    Dennis,

    We have the exact same setup with our house and had the exact same 
    situation with our retaining wall.  I think you need to figure out where 
    all that water is coming from.  A normal amount of rainfall on top of 
    the ground shouldn't cause all the dirt/sand from behind the wall to come 
    through. If the wall is well contructed, there shouldn't be any really
    big gaps between the rocks either.  In our case, since the yard was 
    sloped in such a way that water would naturally drain towards the wall, 
    putting up a gutter on the back of the house and putting is some drainage 
    along the back of the house and behind the wall solved the problem.

    All the downspouts of the gutters were tied into a drainage pipe
    that runs along the back of the house, past the wall and off to
    a part of the land where it won't cause any damage.  This pipe is
    buried in crushed gravel.  Haven't had a problem with it since.

    BTW, Matthew Lang was the landscaper who did all this work and some
    landscaping too.  I would highly recommend him.  He does excellent
    work (if you're in the Nashua area that is)

    ......helen

    
    I looked at my landscaping and noticed that along the front of the lawn
    (i.e., the part that is adjacent to the road) there is dirt.  This is
    because the builders and planning to put a curb up at the end of the
    summer.  Thus, they did not put sod/grass down because they need room
    to put up the curb.  It turns out the sand that ended up in my driveway
    came from the water rushing down this dirtway and down into my
    driveway.  The sand did not come from between the rocks.
    
    Once the sod/grass is in, the erosion will not occur as bad anymore. 
    In fact, there is some small amounts of grass/weeds growing on that
    dirt that I'm watering occasionally so that it can hold the dirt in.
    
    Also, the builders recently added some blacktop on our driveway that
    smoothed it out and put a slight slope on the beginning of the driveway
    -- this will tend to guide the water into the drainage area down the
    street a few feet.
    
    The holes between the rocks are getting some flowery looking plants
    growing between them.  I'm not sure where these came from but they seem
    to be plugging up the holes.
    
    Dennis
    

    I have retaining wall next to my driveway and I have noticed some
    strange fungus growing on it. I have a bright orange/red disgusting
    looking thing growing on the side of the wall and some more
    subdued color fungus growing on top of it. The wall only gets late
    afternoon sun. The house is 6-7 years old. How do I get rid of the
    fungus? I hate to think what it is doing to the wood.
    
    Thanks, Ania
    

    Get a spray bottle rinse it out good, and fill it with
    Clorox bleach.  Go outside and spray the wall down.  
    You will be surprised at what it will do.  We have to
    regularly spray the foundation at our house, since it
    is in a damp area.  Clorox works well for this.
    
    Mary-Michael

    	I had a problem with wet rot on my house trim due to lack of sun in
    some areas. The long term fix meant cutting down a few trees that were
    too close to the house. Not sure if that is an option in your case, but
    it may be something to consider.
    
    	Ray

    Thanks a lot for the advice. I am getting the bleach today. Re: .3:
    there re no trees in the way, the wall just faces north/west.
    
    Ania
    

    Hi,
    
    Anyone know where I can get a subscription the the Family Handyman?  I
    can't seem to find it in NJ.
    
    thanks
    -jon
    

    To subscribe to The Family Handyman, call 1-800-285-4961.  A one
    year subscription (10 issues) is $17.97 in the US.
    
    				Steve

    Thanks,
    
    My subscription starts in June.
    
    -jon