Conference 7.286::home_work

    	Anybody out there with experience on Whirlpool gas dryers??
    the problem appears to be that the the "pilotless" igniter is not
    doing its job, in other words ,no heat!!  has anybody out there
    ahd any experience w/this type failure, is it a possible D.Y.I.
    job?????
    

    call the Whirlpool toll free cool-line number.  It is in the booklet
    or can be found from 1-800-555-1212, 800 information.  I called
    about a 'fridge hookup and they were helpful.
    						=Ralph=

    We just went thru the same installation, except that when we called 
    Boston Gas for a information they told us we'd need a meter bar.  
    Hence, we passed that information on to the plumber.
    
    The whole procedure was done in various stages involving Boston
    Gas, the plumber, and the town instector.
    
    You're plumber should have known, or your gas company should have
    made the installation procedures clearer.
    
    Really, how is the average citizen supposed to know about natural
    gas installations?
    
    Don't be so hard on yourself,
    LZP
    
    

If it's anything like a Kenmore then it sounds like the ceramic heating
element is burnt out and needs replacing.  The same thing happened to me
a few months ago and it was pretty easy to replace. I did mine in about 
15 minutes

George

    What is a meter bar?

I believe that the Meter Bar is the main support that the Gas meter will
physically be attached to so the gas line does not have to support the weight
of the meter. 
                                Phil

     The system consists of 4 main elements:
    
    		1. Ignitor; You should see it glow if it is trying to
    light the gas. But there are other things that can stop the entire
    cycle of ignition.
    		2. Temperature sensor; This shuts off the burner
    periodically whenever a predetermined temp is reached inside the
    drum. If this is faulty it could keep everything off.
    		3.  Ignitor sensor; this can take a few forms, but basically
    it makes sure that the ignitor is up to temp before allowing the
    gas to turn on. If this is bad, it could be holding everything off.
    		4. Gas valve; this could be stuck in the closed position.
    
    If you're lucky, you should find a wiring diagram near the gas valve.
    It will enable you to find everything.
    
      Most of your problems will come from 1-3. Hope this helps.
    
    					Kenny
                                                                

    	Thanx, everybody it turned to be the igniter, but the symptoms
    fooled me for awhile.  The igniter was intermittent just ready to
    go and while I was watching it arching, a piece fell off and somehow
    shorted the terminals blowing the panel fuse.  To make a long story
    short, I pulled the old one out, two sheet metal screws, shut off
    gas supply and unplug unit.  replacement igniter 21.50 at a local 
    appliance part store.  In the bargain I found 43 dimes,12 nickles,1
    quarter some pennies and a Cross fountain pen lying in the bottom
    of the unit!!! Score one for the D.Y.I.rs.
    

    The meter bar not only supports the meter, but has the inlet and outlet
    pipes that the meter connects to.  No meter bar - no place to hook
    on the meter.
    
    I do think that the plumber should have known about it.  If not,
    what is he doing working on a gas line in the first place?  Spring
    a leak in the water pipe - a little mess - spring a leak in a gas
    pipe - a BIG mess. If he didn't know about the meter bar, what else
    might he not have known enough to do? (Or he is just playing dumb
    so he can get more $$s out of you?)
    
    -Bob
             

    
    	On further investigation the plumber told me that the Gas Co.
    should install the meter bar, and that they should have told me
    that it needs to be installed.  I've run into quite a problem
    navigating my way through the three unions at the gas company. 
    No one knows what the other one is doing.  The forman from the meter
    bar installer union is suppose to call me to set up an appointment
    for the bar installation.  Then I have to call the forman of the
    meter installer to arrange to get the meter hooked up.  The people
    in the main office can not or will not coordinate the whole thing.
    	The last time a gas person came to my house I sank to a new
    low.  I offered him $30 if he just hooked the damn thing up NOW.
    He refused and said something about losing he union card.  Well
    at least he was honest, either that or I didn't offer him enough
    :'} .
    
    						=Ralph= 

    
    Re .2
    
    "If it's anything like a Kenmore then it sounds like the ceramic heating"
         
    
    From what I understand, Kenmore is Whirlpool.
    
    								Mark
    

    
    	Well, the action is over.  I had quite an exciting day with
    the Gas Co.  The fitters came in to install the meter bar yesterday.
    I decided to watch what they were doing.  Everything was going fine
    until they made the final connection.  Then the fitter said...Uh
    oh, can I use your phone?  You guessed it, a gas leak.  It seems
    that my old 1" gas feed couldn't take it after all.  The leak crew
    arrived (8 of them!) and proceeded to try to trace my line to the
    street.  It seems that my line was installed in 1915 and the gas
    company HAD NO RECORD OF IT!  It turned out that I had a live rusting
    gas line cutting across my front lawn that no one knew about.  So
    much for 'Dig Safe'.
    	Now the good news.  The gas company ran a new 1.25" service
    complete with a check valve on the main line.  They also moved my
    meter to the outside of the house.  When I inquired about having
    this done three months ago I was quoted $800.  The best part is
    that they didn't charge me for all the work yesterday.  They were
    not required to upgrade the the line to 1.25" or move the meter
    but did so because "I looked like a nice kid".  Just shows what
    a little luck and a few well placed beers can do.  
    
    						=Ralph=
    
    				no longer stuck on fluff dry

    
    Good for you!!!
    
    						.dave.

    another good for you.... it's nice to see that someone can get one
    up on city hall for a change!!!

    
    	I have a Westinghouse gas dryer.
    
    	Lately it hasn't been drying the clothes.  The "firing"
    	element fails to kick on.  I took a voltmeter to the 
    	wiring that goes to the element and measured voltage at
    	the points and there's 117volts there so it seems that
    	at least the relay that supplies this condition is working.
    	So it looks like that there must be a sensor that sniffs
    	for the gas to be there before the element kicks on.  Though
    	I'm not sure if that really is how the procedure works!
    
    	There is a housing which has the gas feed going into it.
    	The same housing (controller?) has a couple of relays
    	mounted to it and these must do the "turning-on" for the 
    	Gas and "firing element".  In the classic tradition of a 
    	hack, I started banging on the controller housing with a 
    	screwdriver to see if the relays would kick on.  Maybe the
    	lint (which there was plenty of by the way) had gotten in
    	the way of the contacts or there was dirt that came in the gas
    	line and was causing the valve to stick.
    
    	After a few taps the "firing element" came on, glowed a 
    	sunrise orange and the gas caught and started doing the 
    	wonderful things that a dryer is supposed to do.  So thinking
    	that I had indeed deduced the problem to sticky valves and/or
    	relays, closed the dryer up, told the wife that I had repaired
    	the beast, patted myself on the back for a job well-done,
    	and opened up a "cold-one".
    
    	Well...need I say that of course the next morning the dryer
    	did not dry the wet cloths?
    
    	I tapped on the controller again and again the element caught
    	and did all the right things.  But I don't think that the fix
    	for this problem is to tie a string to a hammer at the right
    	angle so that the "wife" can pull back on the hammer, let it
    	go, and get the controller to work!  I'd be out a hammer!
    
    	SoI'd replace the whole controller unit but I'm not sure if
    	that is the problem. And, I'm sure that baby costs a few
    	bucks to replace not to mention that most parts stores will
    	not take the unit back!
    
    	Can anyone describe how a gas dryer works and any suggestions
    	as to what the problem may be?  I should also mention that there
    	is some type of sensor that is mounted to the side of the duct
    	that holds the flame for supplying heat to the drum. There is
    	a window cut-out of the duct that this sensor is mounted to.
    	I have no idea what it does.  Only two wires to it.
    
    	Appreciate any comments and don't tell me to buy another 
    	hammer please!
    
    	-TB

    Might not hurt to clean the area thoroughly.  You might notice
    something suspicious (if not the problem itself) while at work.
    
    Dick
    

    I had to clean it!  I was shocked to see how much lint was near
    the gas nozzle.  Could have created a small fire.  Anyway, I'll
    have to figure out how to take the outer skin of the dryer off
    so I can get at it from all angles and have a better view of the
    wiring.
    
    -TB

    This might not apply to your problem, but someone else might
    run into it.
    
    We have a Maytag electric dryer, and over a period of time noticed
    two things: (1) it took longer and longer to dry clothes, and
    (2) very liitle lint was being captured by the lint filter. We
    also sometimes smelled a burning odor and I opened the thing
    up a few times a cleaned out accumulated lint around the element.
    
    The dryer isn't installed by an outside wall, so the vent travels
    through a storage space under the stairs to the vent under the
    front porch. I finally disassembled the entire length of vent
    pipes and cleaned them out. Pulled out about 5 pounds of wet
    (disgusting) lint, which had blocked the pipe down to 10% in
    places. Reminded me of the arteries of someone that eats nothing
    but lard. There were also quite a few acorns in there (squirrels
    visiting?). The backpressure was preventing the clothes from
    drying, and was pushing the lint back into the machine and around
    the element.
    
    Works great now, but I expect to replay this job every year or
    so from now on. 

    	Before you pull the skins off, take a real close look at the
    unit.  Mine is a Whirlpool but I found that two sheetmetal screws
    held the whole assy in.  The igniter was bad/intermittent, cost me
    20 bucks at AAA Appliance Parts in Framingham.  Incidently, there's
    an outit in Needham Mass that caters to DYI appliance repair people
    I cant remember the name but you'll find it in Yellow pages.  Their
    motto is "If you got the smarts, we got the parts", tell them your
    problem ,type of machine and they'll tell you how to do it and what
    tools are needed, and they'll also sell you the part you need whole-
    sale!!!

    Does anyone know anything about venting clothes dryers inside?
    I was under the impression that the exhaust can be directed through
    some kind of filter that removes any remaining lint particles from
    the air. This has the advantages that the heat and humidity are
    kept inside, and you don't have to install a vent pipe to the outside.
    Other than the fact that you might not want the extra heat and humidity
    in the summer, are there any disadvantages to this approach? Also,
    does anybody know of any kits available for doing this?
    
    - Ram

When you say "humidity" you should smile.  You're talking about all the 
water that is left in a load of clothes.  You're talking indoor 
rainstorm.  

I had a gadget that was supposed to let you vent to the inside once.  It
was basically a bucket with cover that was shaped like a cone that
pointed into the bucket.  The idea was the damp air would come out the
vent hose, be directed into the bucket where the moisture would condense
out, trapping the lint with it, and the air would go on its merry way. 
My experience was that everything in the basement became sopping wet,
and the clothes in the dryer never really got dry, since the air being
sucked in was the same (wet) air that was moments ago dumped out.  

Even if I ran it with the doors and windows open, it would still leave a 
film of water on everything, and the dryer would take several times
longer to dry a load of laundry.  I finally punched a window out and
installed a normal vent through the frame.  I didn't want to cut the
wall, since I was renting.  I replaced the window when I moved. 

					>>>==>PStJTT

    I installed a "vent switch" that allows you to redirect the air
    flow inside the house.  It also has a very fine screen for filtering
    out MOST of the lint that gets by the lint filter in the dryer.
    
    This is on an electric dryer, I'm not sure if you'd want to have
    a gas dryer venting inside.
    
    BTW...This works very well in the winter with the wood stove going.
    Our tiny humidifier just can't keep up with the stove.

    I have one on my dryer here in Colorado and it works very well.
    The air is very dry here year around and it helps alot for the winter
    dryness in the house. I have mine vented into the basement from
    upstairs. It helps keep it warmer in the winter and dosent really
    set up inside rainstorms. I would think out east there you may want
    a little less of the humidity. You may want to switch it to vent
    inside after the clothes have dried some.
    
    -j
    

    
    They are *not* a good idea under most conditions, and are purely
    unsafe with gas dryers. In a gas dryer, you also expel some unburned
    material (from the gas) through a dryer vent, and this material
    is flammable and contains trace amounts of nitrous oxide and carbon
    monoxide -- very similar to one using a gas oven to heat.
    
    The other reason they're not really a good idea is because most
    people's  dryers are in un unheated section of their homes, and
    here the moist humid air will rapidly condense and cause the same
    sorts of problems with mildew, and dampness as unvented attics are
    famous for.  For instance if your dryer is in an unfinished basememt,
    the moisture is will wind up on the cement walls the floor nails
    and joists, and if your floor is insulated with fiberglass insulation
    (installed correctly with the bats facing down) the insulation will
    also be wet.
    
    

    I've been using mine for 3 winters now and havent noticed any of
    the problems listed in the last reply. I do have an electric dryer
    and that ends the worry about fumes. The climate here in colorado
    is much dryer(thankfuly) than back east.
    
    -j
    

    We live in moist Massachusetts, have an electric dryer, and have had a
    exhaust air switch for 5 years.  (Our model is a plastic box that
    either directs the dryer exhaust through a screen back into the room,
    or outside.)  The dryer's in the basement.  With the possible exception
    of 2 winters, it has been used it every winter. 
    
    We have not had any of the problems listed in .4 or previous replies. 
    
    jdr

    Thanks for the help. I decided to go ahead and vent it to the outside
    for now, and look into the possibility of inserting a "switching"
    device later on. Since the basement is somewhat dampish anyway,
    it doesn't sound like it would be a good idea to vent inside in
    the summertime. We might get by in the winter, but we don't really
    need the extra heat in the basement that much anyway.
    
    The bottom line is, I looked at some of these devices in the store,
    and they recommend cleaning the lint trap (on the vent, not the
    one on the dryer) every time the dryer is used, which sounds like
    too much extra work for the lazy.

    - Ram

    I have an electric dryer that seems to be getting
    cooler...
    It will generate heat, but the clothes never seem
    to get more than warm... none of the toasty hot
    clothes I'm used to.   The result of this is, of course,
    that it takes longer and longer to dry a load.  
    
    I have checked the vent outlet and it is clear...
    
    From the wiring diagram on the back, there seems to 
    only be one heating element...
    
    Do these heating elements fail incrementally, or do they
    (as I always thought) give up all at once?
    
    Any other ideas as to what may be happening, before I spread
    the sucker all over my laundry room???
    
    Thanks, 
    Kevin
    

    Look into the dryer with no clothes in it.  You should be able to
    see a fairly bright glow from the heating element (where the air
    comes out)  If you can't the element is probably bad. 
    
    
    The heating elements in most dryers are either on (completely) or
    off.   There is no middle-of-the-road in them.  (heat is controlled
    by how long the element is left on)  You might also want to check
    the voltage at the heating element terminals when it is running.
    
    
    One other possibility is that one leg of the circuit has a blown
    fuse (and not the one that runs the motor)  This will cause a  'low
    heat' condition.
    
    
    By the way, if you have to replace the element, they're only about
    $20.00 (I just replaced one about a month ago)
    
    
    -bill
    

    I second the fuse check idea.  (Simple things first, you know.)
    
    -joet

Just another thought, but the electric and gas dryers have two 
thermostats. One for the general heat (the 'toasty-hot') and the 
overheat conditions. Generally, they last pretty much forever, but 
there's an outside chance that the 'toasty-hot' one's finally fritzed 
itself out, thinking it's warmer than what's needed.

Also, if your dryer has a 'dryness' sensor that starts the cool-down 
cycle long before its necessary, it may be contributing to your 
problems.

Let us know what you find...

Chris

    I have checked the breakers... manually reset them just to 
    be sure.  So I guess that I will take the back off this weekend
    to look at the thermostats...
    
    Thanks for the help, and I will let you know what I find.
    
    Kevin

    	Long back, I had similar problem.  The lint had accumulated
    in the back, area where the hot air comes from, and was stopping
    the air flow.  This ultimately melted the heating elements.
    
    	To ensure that this is the problem, put a lamp inside the dryer,
    and see if there is lint packed behind the area where the holes
    are.  I used an old hanger to pull the lint out.
    
    	Good luck - Yogesh

    re .3
    
    Even if your dryer is only vented a short way to the outside, you
    should take down the vent pipe periodically to remove lint.  You
    would be surprised how much accumulates in those ridges.  In addition
    to improving your dryer's efficiency, you will save energy/money.
    
    Peg-whose-husband-is-in-the-appliance-parts-business 
   

    I'm considering purchasing an apartment size electric clothes dryer.
    I don't have any place to vent it outside as I live on the bottom
    floor in a garden-style condo.  Exactly what type of venting system
    do I need to purchase so that I don't have lint all over the place?
    
    Thanx,
    Paula
    

    RE: .8
    
    We vent the dryer inside during the winter to recover the heat and
    moisture. A nylon stocking works quite well to trap the lint. I
    think you will find indoor venting unacceptable during the summer
    because it will raise the humidity to unbearable levels. You might
    consider venting through a window if there is no other alternative.
    
    - Rich

    Most manufacturers make a kit for installations where the dryer
    will not be vented outside.  To find out about it, though, you
    will have to read through the installation instructions.
    
    A simple option is to get about 20 feet of dryer exhaust hose
    and put it in the window when you run the dryer.  Not classy,
    but it will give you time to decide what to do on a more
    permanent basis.
    
    Consider that, if you use a fabric softener in your dryer,
    you won't want to vent inside.  The apartment fills with
    softener fumes; you wont soften to death, but it irritates
    the eyes, mouth, throat, and skin.
    
    pbm
    

    I don't recall where I read it, so this may be hard to pin down:
    
    Somebody did some sort of study (I don't feel very precise today)
    that suggested to them that indoor venting could cause lung problems.
    The dryer's internal filter tends to trap larger lint particles,
    but spew smaller ones;  these small, hard-to-trap particles can
    evade a trap on the end of the hose as well.
    
    They seemed to think that long-term effects would be similar to
    asbestosis or "brown lung".  Not a good thing.
    
    Dick
    

 I've got 2 electric dryers in my cellar ('cause it's an apartment bldg).  
I'd like to vent both of these to the outside through a common pipe.  Seems 
to me, a couple of "one way" air valves are needed to keep air from 
backing up into the "other" dryer.  The only problem is,  I CAN"T FIND 
THESE THINGS !   Anyone have any idea where I could buy  one way air 
valves for dryer vents?  I've looked all over with no luck.

p.s.  I didn't try Spag's.




thanks,
...bill

    Here is the design -
    
    		   set screw
    		       |
    		       V
    
    	---------------|-------------------  <-- pipe wall
		       V|
    			| <-- metal disk
    			|
    	flow -->	X <-- pivot
			|
    			|
    			W <-- weight
    	-----------------------------------  <-- pipe wall

    
    Stan

RE: .1 

Yup, this is exactly what I want.  Can I buy one of these or do I 
have to be creative and make one?  Can't seem to find one anywhere.


thanks,
...bill

    You know, I lived in an apartment building once (something I'm
    not likely to do again) and it seems to me they just vented all
    the dryers in to one stack.  Why not go to a laundromat and see
    what they do?  (of course, if someone else does it, that doesn't 
    make it right...)

    
    	My wife and I recently purchased a washer/dryer for our new
    home.  It was delivered yesterday.  (Which wasn't bad considering
    Sears' past track record of getting things to me on schedule.  It
    was originally scheduled to be delivered on Saturday and so was
    only postponed once and for only two days.  Reasonable.  Back to
    the subject, however... :-)  The dryer is a gas dryer and there
    are no gas lines serving that particular corner of the basement.
    What steps have to be done to add a new gas outlet?
    
    	The distance isn't bad and should only need a few corners (oh,
    perhaps only 4 or 5).  I understand that the pipes/fittings are
    connected via some kind of goop instead of using a blowtorch
    (whoosh, there goes the house!) to weld the pipes.  Is this correct?
    Any hints that you can give me on how to do this easily/correctly?
    Thanks!
    
    							-craig

    You don't mention the location, but since I just had it done in
    my home (Massachusetts), I'll pass along what I remember...
    
    After asking at the town hall, I was told that a permit was needed.
    This permit had to be signed out by a licensed gas fitter (plumber).
    Iron pipe had to be used, and no flexible connections were allowed;
    everything had to be solid.  As far as I could tell, regular pipe
    dope was used on the threads.  A shutoff cock had to be installed
    within a certain distance of the appliance, and it had to control
    the feed to that one unit.  That way, should there ever be a problem
    with the dryer or its gas supply connection, the gas shutoff would
    be obvious.  Of course, if the dryer is on fire, guess where I'm not
    going to reach to turn off the gas?!  I'll go for the main value
    on the outside of the house, thank you.
    
    I would have thought that a length of fexible pipe would be better
    than the solid connection, so the dryer could be moved a little
    bit without stressing the pipes.  However, the plumber said Mass.
    was worried about the eventual breaking of such connections.  In
    time, with enough flexing, I suppose such a connection could break.
    
    Jim

    in reading 1738,  your best bet is to call a licensed plumber.
    
    don't mess with gas.
    
    jim

    
    Re: .1  State
    
    	I live in New Hampshire.  I suppose that means I can run an old
    garden hose from the water heater to the dryer? ;-)  I agree with
    using the solid as opposed to the flexible pipe!  Thanks for the
    hints so far -- any others out there actually do this themselves?
    
    							-c

Figure hooking up a gas dryer will run on the average $150 - $300, depending
on the plumber.  We had a plumber hook up a gas stove in our house and it
took them about 1/2 hour and cost $175.  They used iron pipe and teflon
tape to seal all the joints and used a manometer to test for leaks also.  The
gas wasn't on at the time, as the stove wasn't inspected and the City of
Worcester(Mass.) won't allow the gas to be turned on in a house if there is no
stove.  Even if you are putting in an electric stove, same rule, the gas
inspector has to come and inspect the lines/fittings, then you call the gas
company to come turn on the gas....

    
    	Thanks for the general price info.  That's about the range I
    was expecting...
    
    	Does anyone know what the rules are for New Hampshire?
    
    							-craig

	I called Nashua City Hall in reference to a FHA furnace that
    I needed to install in my basement.  I was told by the inspector that 
    you're allowed to do you own installations if you get a permit and it 
    is inspected by the city. Also, flexible conduit is allowed.  I don't
    know about driers, stoves etc. but I imagine the concern about flexing 
    is a lot less when using it on a furnace.  I mean....I'm not in the 
    habit of moving my furnace so I can clean behind it.  :-)
    
    	Anyway, the only reason I did it myself is because the line
    was already there from the old furnace.  All I needed to do was
    put in the flexible conduit.  I probably wouldn't tackle anything
    bigger because I've not really done any amount of plumbing at all
    - water or gas.  If this is your first plumbing project I'd follow
    the other suggestions about getting a plumber.
    
    George

    Craig, when I lived back in Pittsburgh PA (remember that place :-)
    the house I was renting required all of the gas piping to be replaced.
    Seeing what was needed, I have no doubts that I could do it, but
    it felt better having a bonded plumber do it.
    
    The requirements were to run black iron pipe to all appliances needing
    gas, and in some cases (e.g., a dryer) it was legal to run a flexible
    line as long as it was of an approved type.  There appear to be
    several types available and the "approved" ones were a vinyl lined
    brass/bronze.  All of the joints were sealed with teflon tape rather
    than pipe dope.  I was given the reasons that the teflon tape was
    less messy and in most cases sealed the joint a little easier. 
    (I guess because there wasn't a chance of not using enough dope
    to try and minimize the mess.)
    
    The final step was to have the gas company come out and inspect
    the whole thing.  This consisted of pressurizing the system, using
    a tire pump, and monitoring for any drop in pressure over a several
    minute (I think it was 30 minutes) period.  The guages used allowed
    detection of even a very small drop.
    
    All in all, I think you are probably much better off having someone
    with experience do the work.  Most other DIY projects don't have
    nearly the potential for disaster.
    
    - Mark

    I have run several gas lines in my time.  One was a run across a
    40' basement and up to the 2nd floor to my apartment.  I used black 
    iron pipe, pipe dope and a flexible pipe from the last end (with
    shut off) to the dryer.  I was messy so I made sure there was enough 
    dope in the connection (I don't like gas leaks!).  When I had the 
    bugger all screwed together, I made a mixture of dish soup (Ivory?)
    and water and squirted it on *each* and *every* joint and looked
    for bubbles.  I even found a leak and corrected it!
    
    If you are serious about doing this, get a pipe threader so you can
    cut your pipe to the right lengths.  I had the supply place cut
    and thread all the pipe.  I got it pretty much right the first time
    but it would have been easier to do it all in my basement.
    
    It is fun doing this for the first time.  You always wonder if you
    are going to get it right!  (But dear, it was only a small leak!)
    :-) :-}

    Stan

    My understanding is that flexible pipe is allowed in MA but certain
    towns ban it.

    I agree with .9. I have run gas lines for dryers twice, and a stove
    once.  Use black iron pipe. As far as the pipe dope vs. Teflon tape
    goes, I use the pipe dope (called, of all things, "Rectorseal")
    because most connections I have seen have been done with dope.
    I used the equivalent of soapy water (some clear stuff called "Snoop"
    or some such) after turning on the gas. When you buy your pipe and
    fittings, don't forget to buy one of those disconnect couplings,
    or you will have to rotate the dryer to get the last connection
    made. 8^).
    
    Pay attention to what you are doing, and test for leaks. And let
    the pipe dope dry (say for a day) before you turn on the gas.
    It's a piece of cake, and paying someone to do it for 
    you doesn't guarantee that you won't wake
    up in the middle of the night smelling gas.
    
    gjd.
    297-5386
    

    I agree with .9 and .11, last week my gas hot water heater sprung
    a leak after 8 years and I thought about getting a plumber.  I had
    been trying to get a plumber in there to do another small job, but
    couldn't even get them to return my calls!!!
    
    So I got the replacement water heater and did it myself. 
    It was either that, or go without hot water for who knows how long.
     The water
    connections were a piece of cake.  The gas connections were were
    too, once I figured out how a "union" works.  This is the piping
    component which prevents you from having to rotate the appliance
    for the last connection.  You also need a shutoff for each appliance,
    and a "trap" just before the pipe enters the appliance, to prevent
    debris from getting inside.  Soapy water checked for leaks.  The
    installation manual called out the use of pipe joint compound, which
    comes in a tube, instead of pipe dope, which i think comes in stick
    form.  Is there any difference between the two?
    
    I once had a plumber install a gas dryer and got charged 100 bucks,
    which i thought was steep, but it sounds like a bargain from the
    previous responses!!
    
    I wouldn't reccommend doing this yourself unless you're pretty
    confident of what you're doing.  I had the confidence. (I also
    enjoy the challenge of figuring these things out, kind of like,
    on_the_job_training!)
    
    The problem in MASS is, you need the permit signed by a licenced
    plumber for a new hookup, as opposed to mine being a replacement.
      not sure how to get around this.
    
    Stan, what scheme did you brew up???
    
    Steve
                                                                       
    
                         

    
    
    One way to get around the flexible/no flexible tubing problem is
    to use copper tubing from the end of the black pipe turned into
    a coil (sort of like a spring). To make a good length that allows
    the stove or dryer to be moved far enough to get behind the coils
    should be about 2 feet in diameter and ther should be at least three
    coils. The plumbers who installed my gas stove (bottled gas) in both
    Mass. and Conn. used this method. Even with bottled gas you need
    a main shut off and one at EACH appliance. 

    re .13
    
    You sure about using copper with gas?
    
    A home inspector once told me that was a definite code violation...
    
    Steve
    
          

    
     My apartment had copper lines for the propane bottles that ran
    to the boiler and hot-water heater.
    
     We now have town gas so the lines were disconnected.
    
    				wayne

    re .14
    
    	Might depend on local code.  In Nashua you can use flex, or
    copper.  But neither is allowed to go thru walls or ceilings.
    The copper must have flared fittings.  No crush fittings and no
    sweated joints. (Not too tough to figure what would happen in a 
    fire to sweated gas joints).
         
       - Bob

    
    re .14
    
    Yes, copper tubing, but remember I said both systems were bottled
    gas. The copper pipes started at the bottle and went all over,
    even thru the walls. ----ALL----- fittings were flared and each
    appliance, in my case water heater and cook stove, had its own shut
    off plus the main valve at the bottle.  

    As stated in other notes check local code at the very least or to
    be perfectly(?) safe have a licecned plummber do the job.
    

                                                              
    Re: .all
    
    	Thanks for all of the input.  On Thursday, I had a plumber come
    out and install the gas piping while I was at work.  (No, I don't
    usually have contractors in while I'm away, but I know the guy!)
    
    	Ah, what a joy to have a washer/dryer right down in the basement.
    First house, you see...
    
    							-craig

    RE: .18
    
    	On your next house, Craig, you'll probably be saying:
    
    	"...ah a washer & dryer on the right floor..."
    
    There is a lot to be said for having the washer & dryer on the same
    floor where all the laundry is generated.  (I haven't got this
    combination yet, but the next house will.)
    
    - Mark

    I want to capture the waste heat from my gas dryer. I used to do
    it with an electric dryer by placing a nylon stocking over the end
    of the hose. It was in the basement so I didn't care about the
    moisture. My present gas dryer is on the first floor so the moisture
    would be a major problem.
    
    I've heard warnings that the exhaust is bad etc...
    
    Any safe ideas?? It's a ton of heat going to waste!!!
    
    Harry
    

    Run the exhaust into the basement and use a nylon stocking. {:-)

    re .-1
    
    You sure about that advice??  Isn't there an excellent chance of
    putting a lot of CO into the basement never mind some unburned gas
    or combustion byproducts.
    
    I wouldn't do it without being absolutely positive that the air
    being exhausted is completely isolated from the combustion chamber.
    Even when the drier malfunctions.  Screw the heat loss.  It ain't
    worth it!
    

Re .0:
    
>    I've heard warnings that the exhaust is bad etc...
    
    It was probably in this notes conference, since this very subject
    has been discussed in at least a couple notes.  Doing a DIR/KEY=LAUNDRY
    showed note 1039 with a subject of "Venting clothes dryer inside?".
    It's a starting point.  You might also want to check out some of the
    notes listed under the VENTILATION keyword.
    
    Jim

    I wouldn't think there would be a danger from fumes as chimneys
    aren't used on gas stoves, however I wouldn't suggest the nylon
    either as you have all that lint collected in one spot waiting for
    a spark. Burns nicely too. You might try running your vent hose
    into a 5 gallon pail 1/2 full of water, the moisture and lint will
    be collected by the water and the heat escapes. Just be sure to
    keep water in the pail. Send me mail if you need instructions.
    

    
    	I've tried the "bubble it through a pail of water" idea, not
    very satisfactory.  I'd be much more interested if someone marketed
    an air to air heat exchanger that was designed for all the lint
    and humidity involved in this specific application.
    
    	Reg
    

    Do you seriously want to Mickey-Mouse around with a gas dryer? Carbon
    monoxide poisons without giving you the slightest hint that it's
    there. Like a previous reply said, screw the heat, you won't need
    it six feet under...
    

In our last place we could not possibly vent the dryer anywhere.  

We bought one of those gizmos which is actually the same as a 
pail of water.  

Someone said 'bubble it through' a few back.  You don't put the hose 
INTO the water.  You just tie it so it is pointed towards the water.  The
force of the air makes it bounce off of the water.  The principle is 
that the moisture and lint are trapped by the water when they hit it.

It was an electric dryer and we had no problems doing that.

I am not going to get into the gas issue, just wanted to clarify the 
bucket principle.

    RE: .7
    
    So how well did it work?  Did you have to keep adding water?
    It seems very strange that very hot air bouncing off of a surface
    of water would reduce the amount of moisture in the air.  It would
    seem that you would instead evaporate even more moisture into the
    surrounding room.
    
    -al

Yes, the water did keep evaporating, but I'm really not sure if it 
was faster or slower than it would have without the dryer heat blowing 
on it.

There are only two of us and the only things we dry are sheets and 
towels and tablecloths.   

There was no noticeable lint flying around the basement and lint did
collect in the receptacle.  When the dryer was on, it was humid in the
basement.  But again, since we installed the thing with the dryer, I
don't know if it was more or less than it would have been without the gizmo. 


I think it helped.  I didn't mind being in the basement when the dryer 
was on.  Especially if you are making one out of a bucket, so no real 
expense, I think it is worth a shot.

    In the winter time you WANT to put moisture into the air in the
    basement.  Not so in the summer.
    

    
    
    Here's an Idea I'm getting ready to try.
    
    A while back my thermostat went out on my electric dryer.  The result
    was no heat on any setting.  Also the timer would time out in five
    minutes where before it would last 30 minutes on that setting.
    Checking the schematic wiring I found that the heaters come on when
    the temperature is low and the timer turns on/heater off when it's
     up to temp.  The result is that the timer wont move while the cloths
    are cold and damp.
    
    My recapture scheme:  Connect a solenoid to the timer so that when
    the timer is running the solenoid is on.  This solenoid operates
    a valve that diverts the vent into the room.   Result:  the vent
    doesn't open until *almost all* the mosture is gone and the temp
    of the venting air is hot.
    
    

>    In the winter time you WANT to put moisture into the air in the
>    basement.  Not so in the summer.

I did this for a short time last winter as I didn't have  a dryer vent
out of the basement.  Since I have electric heat, (no heat in the basement)
the moisture froze to the sides of the concrete walls, what a mess.  Also,
the last thing most basements need is more moisture.  If you do end up venting
in the house, let the first 10 minutes of the drying cycle go outside, that
is probably the heaviest (sp) moisture content.

Brad.

    re: .1,.2 
    
    Actually, I didn't mean .1 to be advice.  That is what the smiley
    faces were meant to indicate.  I must be rich because I wouldn't
    bother trying to capture the heat in the dryer exhaust.  I think
    it is not worth the mess.  If there was an air-to-air heat exchanger
    at a cheap price, then I might consider it.
    
    Stan

          DO NOT VENT A GAS DRYER INTO THE HOUSE ANYWHERE. YOU
    
          MAYBE VERY SORRY, OR /////  DEAD  //////.
    
    On a lighter note, don't do anything to restrict the flow of
    exhaaust. While you think you may be capturing some heat loss
    its going to cost you more to run the dryer. One thing i would
    recommend (if you don't already have it) is the use of a metal
    exhaust pipe. They are available in aluminum for venting dryers.
    The reason i mention this is that they are easier to keep
    clean because they do not have the valleys found in the plastic
    cheapies.
    
    Also, someone mentioned that basements do not require humidity,
    not true, the best way to make a decision, is to put a hygrometer
    down there for a few days, 40% relative is acceptable. 
    (the hygrometers found on the cheap barometer,temp etc. deco's
    is more that adequate to determine humidity levels)
    
    jim

    re: .14
    
    You know, I've looked at an awful lot of (awful) houses in my day.
    It seems half of them had dehumidifiers and half had humidifiers
    in the basement (if they had any device at all).  I guess this is
    good advice.

    re .15, yup, The last house i had, 6 room ranch type, was in the
    60+ for humidity without adding any to it. The one i have today,
    a multi-floor with a field stone foundation averages about
    15-18% have to run a humidifier. Using one of those cheap
    $10. jobs, when i'm down in the work shop. Also i have a
    gas space heater down there, i'll bet it sucks up some of
    the natural humidity. The ranch had a concrete foundation,
    it was either tighter, or it drew more moisture out of
    the ground and wicked it into the basement.  ????
    
    jim

    A $10 humidifier?  What is that, a pizza plate filled with water
    put on top of the heater?
    
    :-)
    
    	Andrew
    

    re .12 and the last few
    
    Both ??  Yup.  Since I have a woodstove in the cellar, I need all
    the humidification that I can get in the winter.  In the spring
    and summer I need the dehumidifier.  Can't win.  I'm thinking of
    sealing the cement and insulate/side the walls.  Then I'll probably
    have a dehumidifier for sale.
    (Or swap for a good humidifer)

    I seam to recall reading in a previous note that moisture in the
    air makes you feel cold.  If so then, is venting a dryer in the
    house a good idea?
    
    On a related note would a dehumidifier help save money in moist
    houses or would their cost of operation be higher than any saving?

>    I seam to recall reading in a previous note that moisture in the
>    air makes you feel cold.  

Not more cold, just more.  Water is a much better conductor than air, so cold 
moist air conducts the heat away from your body better than cold dry air.  
Likewise, warm moist air conducts the heat TO your body better than warm dry 
air.  The fact that sweat won't evaporate in warm moist air makes the situation 
worse warm air, but doesn't really effect the cold air case.

The main reason for humidifying is not temperature, it's the dryness itself.  A 
lot of people get dried-up nasal passages and other problems from very dry air.

Paul

    Like everything else it's a matter of moderation.  If you are wet,
    you'll probably feel cold.
    
    What's the first thing the doctor wnats you to do when you tell
    him you have a head code??  2 Aspirin, plenty of fluids and
    HUMIDIFICATION.  Stick your head in the shower with the water steaming
    or if you belong to a health club - sit in the steam bath and breathe
    deeply.  Common ailments from a winter dry house are sore throats,
    constant nose bleeds, etc.
    
    You cna't have it perfectly dry just like you can't seal up a house.
    It should breathe a little.  If it breaths too much then you pay
    heat bill.
    
    Everything in moderation.

    The latest issue of "1,001 Home Ideas" (or whatever its called -
    we get tons of magazines all at once) has an article on this.
    I don't recall if they addressed the electric vs gas issue but I
    was surprised to see that they were very favorable on the idea.
    They suggested some sort of mechanism whereby you could vent the
    dryer inside in the winter to take advantage of the heat and moisture
    and outside in the summer.  
    
    I'll try to remember to bring in the magazine and post the highlights
    here later this week.
    
    Evelyn

     There is just such a device out on the market.

     Can't recall the manufacturer, but I'll post it
     tomorrow.

     daryll
     

    
    	I bought one of these just about a week ago from NHD hardware
    in Nashua (Rt 101A, perhaps 4 miles west of Rt. 3).  It is made
    up of pretty durable looking plastic, has the inside/outside venting
    valve and an easily removable lint filter for $5.99.  It was a piece
    of cake to install -- only took me around 5 minutes max.  I did
    a load of laundry to check it out and, sure enough, it really pumps
    the heat into the basement.
    
    	The next day, though, I got back to work from my Christmas vacation
    to find this note talking about the gas dryer issues.  Well, as
    luck would have it, I have a gas dryer.  The box is going to my
    neighbor this evening...  (At least I know it works well from that
    one load and am not sticking Bill with a lousy item!)
    
    	Well, I guess I can feel good that my savings of drying the clothes
    by gas over electricity (especially in New Hampshire with our
    dearly-beloved PSNH) far outweighs the benefits I would have gotten
    from the heater box on an electric dryer.  (The house is also heated
    by gas...)
    
    							-c
    

    Humidification serves 2 purposes. As for colds etc. thats absolutely
    correct. As for the amount of humidity, 35-45 % relative is the
    recommended level. You need to decide what the level should
    be based on your personal taste and what temp you keep the house
    at. Its somewhat analogous to a hot summer day, at 85 F and low
    humidity you don't mind the warmth as much, but at 85 F with
    unacceptable humidity its uncomfortable. Dry warm air will
    not give you the feeling of warmth, humid air is a better 
    conductor of heat and in turn comfort. Caution here to 
    attain the correct balnace between the temp and humidity.
    
    jim.

    
    Re: .24
    
    	A correction to that price quote that I gave in .24.  Instead
    of $5.99, it was only $4.99.  I checked the price on the box when
    I was taking it off of the dryer vent hose last night...
    
    							-c

    I have periodically considered venting the (electric) clothes dryer
    (after a lint trap) to the cold air return plenum on my FHA system,
    with a bypass for outdoor venting in warm weather. That would put
    the heat and moisture into the living area instead of the basement.
    Anybody ever thought about or tried it? Pros/cons?

    Your house will smell like the inside of a detergent box.
    
    Charly

    disregarding the smell, if you pipe it into the cokd air return
    you could lose the effect of the moisture. the heat in the plenum
    would remove most of it. my experience with fha humidifiers
    is in the heat duct.
    
    jim

    
    	By venting it into the cold air return, you might end up
    dramatically slowing down your clothes drying.  The dryer's blower
    isn't designed for high pressure activity and trying to blow into a
    large collection of piping might prove to be too much for it to
    keep a lot of air moving.  (When I got our dryer recently, the
    installation book took pains to overstate the need for keeping the
    exhaust hose as short and direct as possible to the vent.)
    
    	I'd suggest taking the easy way and just warming the basement.
    If your house is like mine (no insulation to speak of between the
    first floor and the basement), heating the basement *will* help
    the upstairs, though not as directly or quickly.
    
    							-c

    Is there also the possibility of condensation on the ductwork causing
    rust?
    

    venting the dryer into the cold air return of a fha system may have
    more problems.  The lint that gets past your dryer filter will collect
    in the ducts and furnace filter.  Youll have to change it more often.
    Also my service man told me that mostiure is the last thing you
    want in your furnace.  Seems that it adds to the allready rusting
    heat exchanger.
    
    

    re.32 Rusting on the exchanger is very dangerous(CO poisoning) should
    it rust thru the main reason why the humidifiers are after the
    exchanger in the system.   
    
    -j
    

    Geez, all this discussion about trying to salvage a few pennies
    worth of heat from dryer exhaust!  Do all of you really do that
    much laundry?!  Coonsidering all of the potential pitfalls (humidity,
    lint, smell, etc.) any benefit hardly seems worth it.  I'll spend
    my time and money trying to save energy in other more productive
    areas.
    
    Phil

    Another problem  is that you have to be careful where you vent the
    dryer.  In my parents' house the dryer was under the (wood) stairs
    to the first floor. All the moisture warped the stairs in a hurry.

--David

    I have an electric dryer (apprx. 10 yrs old) that refuses to
    generate any heat.  What are the likely causes and approximate
    repair costs?  I'm trying to decide whether to invest in this
    one or purchase a new one.
    
    [If this has already been discussed, please direct me to the
    appropriate note]
    
    Thanks
    Chris

    
    
    	Not much can go wrong with an electric dryer. If no heat is
    being produced 9 times out of 10 it's because the heating element
    is burnt out.  Check the yellow pages for Dryer Supplies & Parts.
    

    One thing to check for before you get into replacing the elements...
    
    I have a electric dryer that would run but not heat.  It turned
    out that the fuse contacts were not connecting correctly and only
    enough juice was getting through to run the 110 motor.  The fuse
    was reinstalled and all was well.  BTW this was fixed by a repair
    man with a volt meter.  Be careful if you try it yourself.
    
    Mark
    

    it could also be the thermostat.  Whether it be the thermostat or
    the element I would be the cost is under 75 $.  Unless something
    like the motor goes, it doesn't make sense to replace it.  

To find previous notes, look in the keyword directory, note 1111.  Reply 
1111.47 is for keyword laundry, and turned up note 1194 (I think), about 
electric dryers that don't heat.

Paul

    
    Thanks Paul for directing me to Note 1194.  Thanks also for the
    suggestions so far, I will check them out
    
    Chris

    I too had a failed heating element in an old electric dryer.  The
    problem actually turned out to simply be the connections to the
    element and I fixed them myself for about free. (Required recrimping
    and whatnot).  I kept this baby going for about 2 more years that
    way.  I eventually replaced the dryer because of other failures.
    A $50 or $75 repair bill is not a problem at all if it prolongs
    the inevitable $200-$300 replacement for a few years.  Do Not Stick
    your fingers in when this thing is plugged in !! 240V hurts alot!

    
    Thanks for the replies and suggestions.  As it turns out, I needed
    a new service for the dryer. (Severe oxidation in the old one, causing
    fuses that protected the heater element in the dryer to get hot
    and intermittently blow).  So for $77.00 I have a new breakerless
    panel for the dryer and peace-of-mind.
    
    Chris

    Ok. this seemed to be the note to use from 1111.3, so here goes
    
    My problem isn't that the dryer doesn't make heat.  It just doesn't
    dry the whole load.  Now, 45 minutes should be enough to dry a pretty
    big load (at least it was in my Electric dryer that I had before)
    but the Gas version doesn't seem to cut it.
    
    The dryer does get warm, the flame looks pretty clean, the blower
    is blowing, but the damned thing doesn't dry completely.
    
    There is also a setting which is supposed to figure out how dry
    things are "Ie:   More_Dry  <---------> Less_Dry" but that seems
    to be even worse.
    
    
    any suggestions?
    
    
    -bill

    	Is this a new GAS dryer in place of the old ELECTRIC one. Or
    is this a new house with new dryer. One of the major things that
    effect how fast clothes dry is the exhaust vent. Air flow is very
    important the longer the run the more CFM is reduced. If you have
    any elbows or turns in the exhaust pipe this reduces air flow also.
    The installation guide for my dryer had a whole big chart on max
    distance of pipe and how much each elbow reduced CFM.  I know when
    I moved my dryer from my old house to the new house I added about
    20 extra feet of house and an additional right angle and my drying
    time increased by about 10 min.
    
    ...Dave
    

    It's just a replacement.  (In fact, I still have the Electric version,
    I just rent it with the downstairs apartment cause someone told
    me that Gas was a better/more efficient way to dry clothes)
    
    The exhaust vent is one of those flexible hoses.  maybe I should
    run the real stuff.  It's only about 10 feet all told though.
    
    
    -bill

    
    From my experiences using gas and electric dryers, I think gas takes
    more time for drying than electric. We recently installed a gas
    line so bought gas dryer and sold the electric.  45 min. for a 
    full load is not enough time for the gas. I would figure closer
    to 60 min. It doesn't seem to dry as hot as electric and the clothes
    aren't shrinking any more.  The gas dryer I had several yrs ago also
    took more time to dry clothes than electric.
                                                                        

I've had the opposite experience, Kathy.   There may be some electric 
dryers that are hotter than some gas dryers, but a good gas dryer will 
always win.  Check out some of the dryers at a laundromat sometime, 
the gas ones can really be set for <fry>.


/jeff  who-was-overjoyed-to-move-out-of-his-apt-that-had-electric-dryer-and
bought-a-GE-gas-dryer-which-is-wonderful

    
    
    	Help!! I'm trying to hook up a gas dryer.....I put all the pipes
    	together using Teflon tape and alas the gas isn't making it
   	to the pilot (at least it appears not to be judging from the
    	book of matches I've gone through)...I can smell the gas when
    	I turn it on, but it's coming from the piping behind the dryer
    	somewhere. My Questions are:
    
    
    		1. Is the way to determine at which joint the gas is
    		    leaking? A safe way that is.....
    
    		2. Is there something other than teflon tape that I
   		    should/could use on the pipes (A compound of some
    		     type?)?
    
    		3. Is there something special one needs to do to seal
    		    the union to insure it's not leaking there?
    
    
    
    		Any help will be greatly appreciated...
    
    
    				Thanks
    				Bob
    

    A safe way to check for leaks is to get some soapy water and cover
    the joints with suds.  That way you can see leaks by watching for
    bubbles.  In the past I've used plumber's joint compound.  I forget
    exactly wht it's called - probably plumber's joint compound - but
    it should be available in most hardware stores.
    
    	Also, I probably wouldn't go around lighting too many matches
    until I found the problem, and shut the gas off BEFORE the section
    of pipe that you think has the leak.
    
    George

    Personally, I wouldn't try to hook up gas myself.  The consequences
    of a leak with water is a big mess.  The consequences of a leak
    with gas can be a blown-up house.  Since you're needing to ask
    questions about how to do it, I'd give second thoughts about whether
    you should be trying to do it at all.
    But...if you're determined to do it, I'm pretty sure Teflon tape
    is *NOT* what you want to use for gas.  You want "pipe dope", a
    goopy liquid that comes in a brush-top can.  One brand is (I think)
    RectorSeal.  Check the label to be sure it's approved for use on
    gas lines.
    You also want black iron pipe, approved for gas lines.  It's NOT
    the same as regular iron water pipe, although I suspect a lot of
    water pipe gets used.  The big difference is is the fittings, actually.
    Malleable iron vs. cast.  Again, I suspect a lot of water pipe fittings
    get used for gas lines, but strictly speaking there is a difference,
    or should be.
    A union should be able to be made tight without special treatment.
    The only trick is to be sure the mating surfaces are absolutely
    smooth, without burrs.  And if there is a burr, you probably can't
    just file it off, because then you'll have a slight unevenness that
    can leak.

    	Just a reminder. The fittings on a gas stove that you purchase
    in a store such as Lechmere etc. usually do NOT match the gas fitting
    that is used for city supplied gas, but WILL fit MOST propane or
    bottled gas fittings.
    	If your stove is new, and your using city gas, the receptor
    for the pilot has to be drilled out. 
    
    	Spend the $25 to have a gasman hook it up. If you screw this
    up, not only is there the danger of fire and explosion, but you
    can expose yourself and you family to methane/propane gas. Over
    a period of time this is an asphyxiant. 
    
    Ken

	Do not hook up gas piping on your own, and without a permit.  First,
	in Massachusetts it is illegal.  Also, in Massachusetts it is 
	difficult to hide.  Every seven years the gas meter has to be 
	replaced, and the gas company must shut-off, inspect and relight all
	gas appliances and pipes.  If they find any unsafe and unapproved 
	piping they can refuse to turn your gas back on and notify the 
	building inspector.  The building inspector can fine you and
	ask you to vacate.  Thats actually the easy part, either directly
	or indirectly, your mortgage company and insurance company will 
	find out and then the fun begins.  The law is easy compared to the 
	rath of your insurance company:-).

	BTW, they like to descend on your house at 7 a.m. on Saturday 
	morning.  This happened to our neighbor this weekend.  Two 
	FG&E trucks, a cop, building inspector, and fire truck.  They 
	were nice enough to wake me up when they went to my house by accident.

	Brian

    
    
    	Thanks for the advice.....So I can get COMGAS to hook it up
    for me? 
    
    
    				Bob
    

re.< Note 2378.5 by CSCMA::FINIZIO >
                                -< The GAs MAn >-

    
    
>    	Thanks for the advice.....So I can get COMGAS to hook it up
>    for me? 

             I know that Fitchburg Gas ane Electric won't do plumbing work.
             They tell you to get your own plumber to do the work.  
             I doubt ComGas is any different.

             It will cost you alot more than 25 bucks to have a plumber come
             in a hook up your dryer.  I had one hooked up in West Boylston
             about 3 years ago, cost $104.  Plumbers are crooks, they know
             they have you over a barrel, so they overcharge.

             Also, good luck getting a plumber to come over for such a small
             job.  Most of them will laugh at you.

             Gas plumbing is easy IF YOU KNOW WHAT YOU"RE DOING.  If you're
             adding an appliance (as opposed to replacing one) you're better off
             getting the permit.  But only licensed plumbers can take out
             permits from the city/town.

             If you're replacing an appliance, there's supposed to be a permit
             in place, so you can get away with doing it yourself, again,
             if you know what you're doing.


             
    

    You are pushing the pilot light button, right?  The soapy water
    trick is good for checking for leaks. If you want the job to look
    more like it was done "official" use the pipe dope. I get mine at
    Spags, cheap.
    
    P.S.   In my opinion, the chances of the town swooping down on you
    at 7 AM on a Saturday are lower than your chances of getting run
    over by a car in the street.
    
    
    

    
    	Gas piping use two types of fittings, flare and pipe.  The
    flexible pipe from the dryer attaches to the pipe from the gas
    supply via a flare to pipe thread adapter.  This adapter is also
    required to attach the flexible pipe to the dryer.  Many times
    people remove this fitting not realizing what it does, and try
    to hook up the flexible pipe directly to the gas supply pipe.
    The result is a "mega" leak, because the flexible pipe uses 
    machine threads and the gas supply pipe has pipe threads, and
    the two are incompatible.  Make sure you have your fittings
    straight before you do your soap test for leaks.  You should
    have the following components:
    
    	dryer -> pipe to flare adapter -> flexible gas pipe -> flare
    to pipe adapter -> gas supply pipe
    
    
    _____
        |__
           \
            |   <---  Pipe to flare adapter
         __/
    ____|
                                           
    
    

    
    
    	I told the guys at Summerville Lumber what I was doing and
    	they gave me the black pipe to the job with.....There is
    	an existing pipe in place where the previous owners had their
    	dryer...the pipe has a shutoff on it.....there are 3 elbows
    	and one reducer in the layout.....therefore I have 10 connections
    	....so there is a chance one of them is leaking......there is
    	no button on the pilot.....it's a swivel type setup as follows
    
    			       //
    			      //
    			====( O )===

    
    					Thanks
    		  

    Flexible gas piping is illegal in Massachusetts, or so I'm told.  Over
    time, it's apparently more likely to develop leaks.
    
    Jim

re. < Note 2378.10 by LITLTN::CAHILL "Jim Cahill" >
>      -< I was told by the crook (I mean plumber) that installed mine... >-
>
>    Flexible gas piping is illegal in Massachusetts, or so I'm told.  Over
>    time, it's apparently more likely to develop leaks.
>    
>    Jim
>

          I was told by a plumber (I mean crook) recently that the flex gas
          piping was legalized in Mass about a year ago or so... :)
       
          Steve

    
    
    	Well the house blew up yesterday.....only kidding...I used the
    soapy water technique and found that the leak was in the union...
    didn't line them up 100%......anyway everything seems to be fine
    now......I can't see the diff between what a plumber would have
    done and what I did....I had the right type of pipe and connected
    them properly using plumbers dope...checked for leaks and walla...
    I can see the benefit in hiring an electrician for jobs though,
    Thanks for the input...
    
    
    					Bob
    

    I hooked up my Sears gas dryer myself.  I bought a flexible hose
    and the appropriate adaptors at the hardware store.  The instructions
    recommended teflon tape, which is what I used.  It was easy, worked
    fine, no leaks, and my house hasn't blown up (yet!).  I do intend to
    have the gas company come look at it sometime, just to be sure.
    
    				Steve
    
    P.S.  I am in New Hampshire

    RE: .12
    
    Did you get his license lifted?  A life-threatening mishap like
    that seems like as good excuse as possible.
    
    The real moral of the story: when it comes to gas piping, the important
    thing isn't whether or not the person is licensed.  The important
    thing is whether or not the person knows what they're doing.
    
       Gary

I also need some gas pipe installed and would like to hire a
competent contractor to avoid accidents. I understand
that the normal procedure is to go through the yellow pages,
call up a few, ask them for references, years of experience etc..
My question:
Is there a less "random" way to screen out the good ones from the bad ones?
I could think of several ways but don't know how
well they would work:
1) Call the builder of our house to ask for
   recommendations of the contractors, preferrably the ones that did
   the work.
2) Find the "AAA" type association of the contractors. However,
   I don't think such an organization exists.
3) Ask the in-house maintenance/installation manager whether
   he knows of any of his crew who is competent and does moonlighting.

Any info or leads are welcomed. Thanks.
-Bill

.17> Is there a less "random" way to screen out the good ones from the bad ones?

4. Use the list of plumber references in note 2020.

    > now......I can't see the diff between what a plumber would have
    > done and what I did....I had the right type of pipe and connected
    > them properly using plumbers dope...checked for leaks and walla...
    >> I can see the benefit in hiring an electrician for jobs though,
    >> Thanks for the input...
    
    	Really strange.  I would think that most people would rather
    try (and feel safer) running a  piece of Romex than do some natural
    gas plumming. :-)
    
    bjm
    

    
    
    	re: .19
    
    
    		Not if you knew someone who was electricuted to death....
    	It's not a pretty sight.
    
    
    	

    If I make a mistake with electricity, it's my neck.
    If I make a mistake with gas, it's my neck, my wife's neck, and
    my children's, and anybody else's that happens to be close by.
    I wouldn't take the chance.

    re: "No heat"
    OK , its old,but later better than never.
    
    A couple of causes for apparent no heat is:
    1) Clogged filter .. clean it before every load
    2) Long hose runs ... sometime acumalates lint, collects water vapor,
    	and needs to be cleaned out occacsionally.
    3) (this little bugger is more devious) Lint collects in the 
    	exhaust vent inside the dryer, and forms a blockade. The filter
    	is clean, the pipe is clean, but it can collect here, also.
    (Yes, you do have to disconnet the hose from here. If 'exhaust blockage
    is the problem, then the INSIDE of the dryer may have a 'steamy
    appearance' when the door is opened, and the exhaust vent will be
    cool.
    
    Bob

    re.3
    There are some pretty big differences between a gas appliance designed
    for propane -vs- natural gas the threads on a propane tank and
    appliance are usually left threaded(always on the tank). The other
    difference is the orfice(sp?) is not the same due to the higher
    BTW output of propane the propane orfice has a smaller hole than
    a natural gas one. By changing the orfice and couplings either can
    be converted to run on the other.
    
    -j
    

  	  <Similar Problem not quite solved>

    	I ahve a 15+ yr old GE GAS Dryer. The problem was no heat. After
    some checking found that the gas valve was shutting down after about
    ten second of flame, staying off for 10 seconds, and then cycling
    on/off at about the same rate. The dryer never would get hot at
    this rate. After musch messing around, I figured out that one of
    the high temperature sensors was tripping. It looked like the flame
    was hitting the sensor. Like the last note says, I found much lint
    and crude in the vent host and inside the dryer vent passages. This
    seemed to fix it! I then realized that the dryer worked ok if I
    left off the door (really a grille that opens) over the gas valve.
    to me this meant I had an air flow problem. I called the GE 800
    hot line. Theytold me to check the fan and vent again. They told
    me to replace the sensor that was trpping. Sensor replaced same
    problem. I have left off the door in the frobnt and woks okay. Don't
    know if this helps anyone else or if anyone has had a similar
    experience.

    
    	As a purely hypothetical question, of course,
    
    	"Is small gage, say 1/8 inch, soft copper pipe legal for propane
    stoves and water heaters in, let's say seasonal cottages in Vermont ?"
    
    	and if not now,  "Was it ever legal, let's say 30 years ago ?"

    ...and would it be OK now under some kind of "Grandfather clause" ?

    
    	R	{just curious}
    

    My Kenmore Gas Dryer which is about 10 yrs old decided to quit a
    few days ago. The problem was no heat.  When turned on the first
    time, the ignitor glowed and the burner kicked on and there were
    flame. The flame stayed on for about 2 1/2 minutes and then went off 
    for some reason. At this point, the ignitor would cycled on and
    off ( glowed ) every minute, but the burner failed to kick-in.
    Previous notes suggested this either a " temperature sensor " or
    " ignitor sensor " problem.  From the parts list that came with
    the user manual ( don't have the service manual ), there should
    be a " sensor, radiant " and 4 thermostats. Is the " radiant sensor
    " the same as the " ignitor sensor " ?   I think this is more a
    thermostat problem than the ignitor sensor problem, am I right ?
    How can I test the thermostat to check which one of the 4 is bad
    ?

        I have  an  8 year old kenmore eletric dryer.  As time goes on it
        seems to be  taking  longer  to  dry  a  load of clothes.  I have
        cleaned out all the  lint  areas  (hose  and  exhaust duct in the
        dryer).  

        When I checked out the electrical path I found the following:

            With the dryer empty:  the  tub  comes  up to proper temp and
        stays fairly consistent.

            With the  dryer  loaded:   the thermastat that should control
        the temp never gets up to  temp.    The  safety thermastat on the
        heater element tube is turning on and  off but at its rated temp.
        I was told by a sears repair that the  safty  therm  should never
        switch off.  

        At this point I am stumped!  Any help out there?

        Not so dry 
        Paul H.

    I posted a note in #478 Monday and have yet seen any reply. I can
    think of three reasons for that :
    
    1. matter is too simple, not worth to reply
    2. matter is too difficult, no one knows the answer, so no reply
    3. the note# is too way back, no one would look back that far
    
    Knowing the noters attitude, reasons 1 & 2 don't stand. Is is possible
    that none of you looked back at note #478.
    
    I'm now post the note here, and change the subject a little bit
    to " Gas dryer troubleshooting ".
    
    The 10 years old Kenmore gas dryer developed some problem two weeks
    ago - no heat.  The burner failed to turn on MOST of the time. Even
    if it kicked-in, it would shut off by itself after about 2 1/2 minutes,
    and then would not kick-in again.
    
    My first thought was one of the thermostat was bad/marginal ( circuit
    open too soon, before it reached the desire temperature ). So I ohm-ed 
    them out last night before I started the machine, and it appears o.k.
    ( 0 ohm, not open ). Then I turned the machine on, the drum rotated,
    the ignitor, after some delay, glowed for approximately 15 seconds,
    then I heard a small " click ", and the ignitor went off, but still
    NO flame. I left the machine on for a while and observed that the
    ignitor would glow for approximately 15 seconds every minutes but
    the burner never kicked-in. Ohm the thermostats again, still o.k.
    ( 0 ohm ).  So the " bad/marginal " thermostats assumption was not
    correct. Before I try troubleshooting again tonight, I need some
    answer to the following questions :
    
    1.  Is it normal that the ignitor cycles on-and-off ? or should
        it stay on ( glow ) untill the burner kicked-in ? and what
        component(s) could shut off the ignitor ?
    
    2.  How does the " radiant sensor " work ? I know it sense the
        temperature on the ignitor, and if its hot enough, it turns
        on the burner and the ignitor would ignite the gas.  My question
        is : if the temperature is NOT hot enough after a certain period
        of time, would the sensor cause the ignitor to switch off ?
        If it does, what is the normal/typical " cycle time" ?  I suspect
        that may be the ignitor " cycle " off too soon ( before it reach
        the desire temp. ) and hence the burned would never turned-on.
        Or the " radiant sensor " is marginal ( intermittantly failed to 
        detact the ignitor's temperature ). Therefore it could sometimes
        successfully turn-on the burner, but failed MOST of the time.
        How can the " sensor " be tested to see if its operational ?
    
    3.  What other components could inhibit the burner ( other than
        the burner itself ) to kick-in ?
    
    4.  In your opinion, what was wrong witht the machine ? sensor ?
        burner ? thermostats ? others ?

>    I posted a note in #478 Monday and have yet seen any reply. I can
>    think of three reasons for that :
>    
>    1. matter is too simple, not worth to reply
>    2. matter is too difficult, no one knows the answer, so no reply
>    3. the note# is too way back, no one would look back that far
>    
>    Knowing the noters attitude, reasons 1 & 2 don't stand. Is is possible
>    that none of you looked back at note #478.

This has been said about a zillion times, and I don't know any way to 
get it out more clearly to NOTES novices, but whenever you add a reply to 
a conference NO MATTER HOW OLD THE BASE NOTE IS, people opening the 
conference to read will see your note.  So if people didn't answer it's 
not because they didn't see the note.

				>>>==>PStJTT (certified NOTES crank.)

    	RE: .0
    
    	I *did* see your note when it was posted Monday, but since I
    	don't have any gas appliances, or very much experience with
    	them except for installation, I didn't reply.  But I *did*
    	see the note, so it wasn't a problem of 'going back too far'.
    


	> ...before it reached the desire temperature

    	I'm not sure if you might be looking for the wrong symptom
    	here.  If the burner goes on sometimes but shuts off early,
    	seems to me the defective part would be the thermostat tel-
    	ling the burner it is overheating, not the opposite.  But,
    	this is just a guess.

I find this hard to believe.  Many apologies for the small amount of raving I'm 
about to do, particularly to those who will bear the brunt of it, but I am 
simply amazed.

Yesterday, in response to a note on a subject which had been much covered, I 
entered a note in the Home_work discussion note, note 853, asking about why 
people start new notes when it's clear from their entry that they have read 
the old ones.  It was pointed out by me and by others in that note that any 
note entered anywhere in the file is seen by every normal reader - everyone 
uses next unseen to read notes.  Adding a new reply to an old note is EVERY BIT 
as effective as writing a new note.  It is in fact a good idea to start a new 
note if you are asking a distinct and unique question, because it will get a 
separate entry in 1111.  But if it is simply an extension of existing 
discussions, there is NO REASON to start a new note.

THE VERY NEXT DAY not one but TWO people enter new notes on old subjects, both 
mentioning that they've read the old notes.  And this note in particular 
specifically mentions that no one will look at the older notes.

I recognize that the authors of these notes must not have read the notes in 
853 - I don't believe they could have and then entered their notes, but I am 
continually amazed at how cooincidences like this occur - what are the odds 
that these notes would be entered the very day after the discussion showing that
they shouldn't be?  Yet it seems like that happens all the time.

Again, sorry MSSE::CHENG that you get to bear the brunt of something that's 
been building for a while.  You were just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Paul

P.S. This note has been write-locked.

< Note 478.14 by HIHOSS::HOSSFELD "I'm so confused" >
                                -< almost dry >-



>       I have  an  8 year old kenmore eletric dryer.  As time goes on it
>       seems to be  taking  longer  to  dry  a  load of clothes.  I have
>       cleaned out all the  lint  areas  (hose  and  exhaust duct in the
>       dryer).  
>
>       When I checked out the electrical path I found the following:
>
>           With the dryer empty:  the  tub  comes  up to proper temp and
>       stays fairly consistent.
>
>           With the  dryer  loaded:   the thermastat that should control
>       the temp never gets up to  temp.    The  safety thermastat on the
>       heater element tube is turning on and  off but at its rated temp.
>       I was told by a sears repair that the  safty  therm  should never
>       switch off.  
>
>       At this point I am stumped!  Any help out there?


    Again I  ask  for  any  help out there?  My wife is pushing for a new
    dryer - save me from the sears credit monster


        Paul H.

    Since the safety therm should never be switching and it is, obviously
    it's broke.  Since you're not getting any expertise here, call the
    Sears repair service in to fix the old one or determine if it's
    cost effective to fix.  You may be better off with the new.  But
    it sounds as though it ought to be fixable.
    
    My first guess, knowing absolutely nothing about your particular
    dryer, is a burned out element.  Since it gets up to heat no load
    but cannot maintain heat while loaded it sounds like a partial burnout.
    
    Maybe there's 2 elements ??  One high energy quick heat and one
    smaller maintainer element ??  The higher wattage coil is partially
    open so that somehow current and/or heat is getting to the safety
    thermostat.  {How often is it switching on and off?}  But no or
    not enough heat is getting to the drier.
    
    What breaks in a dryer:
    
    belts
    timing mechanism
    heater coils
    thermostats
    
    Not much else.

    When I said 'It's broke'.  I meant 'the dryer is broke'; not the
    safety thermostat.
    
    This is based on my level of knowledge.  Not knowing your model
    #,  very little experience fixing appliances and insufficient data
    on your particular problem.
    
    Sorry if that was confusing.

>   Since the safety therm should never be switching and it is, obviously
>   it's broke.  
    
>   Maybe there's 2 elements ??  One high energy quick heat and one
>   smaller maintainer element ??  The higher wattage coil is partially
>   open so that somehow current and/or heat is getting to the safety
>   thermostat.  {How often is it switching on and off?}  But no or
>   not enough heat is getting to the drier.

        There is one eliment and it was replaced a year ago.  The problem
        was there (to  a lesser degree) then and has gotten worse as time
        passed.  


>   My first guess, knowing absolutely nothing about your particular
>   dryer, is a burned out element.  Since it gets up to heat no load
>   but cannot maintain heat while loaded it sounds like a partial burnout.

        The temp sensor is in  the  exhaust duct for normal operation and
        the safty is on the heater coil duct  for protection.  The blower
        fan also is in the exhaust duct.  This sucks the air from the tub
        and the inlet to the tub is the eliment duct.   When unloaded the
        exhaust  gets  to  temp.   But loaded it doesn't and the  eliment
        "overheats" causing the safty to switch.  

        I get the feeling that the air flow isn't proper.  The only thing
        I  can  think  of  for that is the tub leaks to much but  when  I
        compaired the "play in my dryer tub with a new one I don't notice
        much differance.  They both had a lot!  If this is a problem, any
        ideas on how to check it.  Because the gaskets are around $40 and
        I only want to do that if I am sure its the problem!


        
        

    I have a Sears electric dryer that is spitting black goo on my
    clothes!  HELP!
    
    I tried to find the spot in the drum by wiping it down with a towel,
    with no luck.  Later I found another spot on my hand, possibly from
    that experience.
    
    This doesn't happen often - we do lots of laundry and today was
    the second time in a few months.
                    
    Any ideas?

    I had grease spots showing up on my clothes for a long time before
    finding out it was the washer and not the dryer.  We thought it
    was the dryer because we never noticed spots on the clothes when
    they came out of the washer.  We only noticed them after running
    through the dryer.  Evidently, when my washer had overflowed because
    of a bad level switch, it loosened up some of the grease on the
    agitator shaft and "pushed" it up to where it sat right under the
    cap of the agitator.  Every once in awhile pieces would fall out
    into a load of wash.  Check and see if there is a bunch of grease
    under there before starting to rip the dryer apart.
    
         Chris D.

    
    Black goo?
    
    Could it be be melted black rubber?  I was amazed that some of the 
    rubber trim on the side of my car, melted into a hot disgusting black 
    goo this summer.  It looked a little like thick tar. I couldn't 
    believe it!
    
    -tm
    

    We have been experiencing something similar, so any suggetions will
    be appreciated. On and off we will find a black/brown streak on
    light clothes. The steak typically is  approx. one inch long and
    1/16 of an inch wide. Most of my dress shirt collar tips have been
    stain like this. This will not wash off, even using wisk, etc. Have
    totally clean the washer and dryer but still get these staind on-off.
    

    
    We used to get marks on items left sitting wet in the dryer. Turned
    out the paint/enalmel inside of the drum was chipped in palces and
    the steel drum underneath was rusting, leaving rust stains. I repainted
    the inside with Krylon Crystal Clear paint, and have not had a problem
    since.
    
    Good Luck,
    
    gjd
    

    Thanks for the quick replies.  I'll check for rubber.
    
    It is definitely the dryer and not the washer.
    
    This isn't rust, it is 3D goo.
    
    Any other ideas or suggestions?
    
    owner_of_the_amityville_dryer

	What does the goo smell like?  Oil?  Rubber?

	Is it possible that lube grease is getting into the hot-air
	flow?  I should think there wouldn't be enough air flow to
	blow goo blobs into the dryer, though.

	Is there greasy stuff around the drum rim at the door?

	Did someone in your house decide to dry a plastic toy
	or a wax candle?

	Regards, Robert.

I used to get spots on my shirts all the time - then, after reading 
consumer reports, I discovered it was because I was using IVORY SNOW 
detergent - which tends to respot clothes.  changing to Tide solved 
the problem

    Try to have a look at the drum belt,payy particulat attention to
    the idler pulley,see if it is wearing the belt causing the rubber
    to come off and get sucked into the drum.Some dryers suck in the
    cool air thru the motor providing cooling for the motor if the motor
    has greasy lint on it,it may be getting sucked thru.Hope this helps
    Regards
    Les.

    What's the best way to cut through the side of the house in order
    to install an outside dryer vent?
    
       Gary

    
    	Best and easiest would be a nice 4" hole saw, if you just
    happen to have one in your inventory.  Aside from that, I found
    a regular ole' saber saw did quite nicely.

    
    Another far-from-normal household inventory item is a "Saws-all"
    which I used to  bore the hold for my dryer. It's a real large saber
    saw, which may work a bit better because of the thickness of the
    material to be cut. (I'm no expert - above from LIMITED experience!)
    Brian

    I don't really recommend this, because it is a lot of work, but
    "it worked for me".
    
    Mark a circle outline in the outside wall where you want the vent
    hole.  Drill a series of holes (1/2" or so diameter) just inside
    this line.  Using available implement (such as hacksaw blade) cut
    between the holes.
    
    Yes, this is a somewhat silly method, but it was the only method
    I had at the time to cut the 2x10 band joist, 1" foam insulation,
    and 5/8" siding -- small sabre saws don't quite cut it (please pardon
    the pun!).
    
    Regards,
    Russ

    	I'd suggest that you use the hole saw.  It is the easiest method
    and will yield the best results.  I rented one from Taylor Rent
    All for penuts, hooked it up to my drill and was finished in about
    10 minutes.
    
    					=Ralph=

    
    If you are lucky enough to have your drier under/near a window cut
    a sheet of plywood to fit the widow opening - cut the hole for the
    drier vent in the plywood - seal/paint the plywood - remove the
    window - install the holy board - seal with glazing compound - back
    the board with foam insulation - install the drier vent.

    Actually .15 raises another question in my mind.
    
    Currently the dryer venting tube goes from the dryer in the mudroom
    into the basement, where it spews all sorts of humidity into the
    basement.  The most obvious place to put the outside vent is at
    the corner of the house, just above the foundation.  There seems
    to be plenty of room between the subflooring above and what I think
    is called the sole plate -- the wood resting flat on the foundation.
    
    Not knowning too much about construction, my question is this. Is there
    a joist at that position (.15 used the term "band joist"), or is it
    just the insulation (easily removed), plywood sheathing, and clapboard?
    If there is a joist, will cutting into it so close to the end cause a
    structural problem?  If necessary, we could run the vent to a point
    in the basement where the foundation is lower and it's obvious we
    just have sheathing and siding, but that seems like a lot of work.
    Or we could just move it in to the next gap between the floor joists,
    so that the vent wouldn't be so close to the end of the band joist.
    
    Finally, do I just seal it with ordinary exterior caulk?
    
    Thanks,
    
       Gary
    
    PS Re: .17  No offense, but quite frankly I find that vents in windows
    are ugly.  I like windows to be windows.  At least the plastic external
    vent that the previous owner left us goes with the house.  If it
    didn't, I'd go buy a metal one and spray paint it a suitable color.
    Isn't it silly the way a mostly practical person like myself can
    sometimes let appearances complicate matters?

<    Not knowning too much about construction, my question is this. Is there
<    a joist at that position (.15 used the term "band joist"),
 
	That sounds like a band joist.  The band joists form the perimeter of 
	joist frame.  There are two types of band joists.  Rim joists run 
	parallel to the joists and typically run along the low load bearing
	(gable) end of a house.  Header joists are usually perpendicular to the 
	joists at the outside ends.  Most of the load of the house is carried by
	by the header joists and beams. 

	You will be working on a header joist.  I would recommend that there is 
	atleast one joist between the hole and the end of the house.  You should
	be able to put a 4" hole into a 2x10 or larger joist without problems.
	For 2x8 you should glue and nail a 2x8x on the inside of the joist where
	the hole will go.  Nail from both the inside and outside and nail
	through the joists into the ends.  
 
<    Finally, do I just seal it with ordinary exterior caulk?

	Yes, an exterior grade silicon works.  Caulk around the hole on the 
	inside and out, and around the flashing.  The flashing above the 
	opening should be under the siding if possible.
    
   	Brian

    The band joist is essentially non-structural.  All of the loads
    fron the floor and house are transferred directly from the floor
    joists to the sill plate (the floor joists rest directly on the
    sill plate).  The band joist holds the ends of the floor joists
    in place and generally keeps things square.  -.1 is right about
    the difference between rim joist and header joists -- rim joists
    do carry a load.  Most of the work I've done has been along the
    sides of the house, so I tend to forget about the rim joist.
    
    There is no structural problem in cutting a 4"-5" hole through a
    band joist.  However, the advice in -.something to stay at least
    one joist away from the end of the house is reasonable.
    
    Re: renting a hole saw (-.several).  The hole saws I've used are
    "cookie cutter" type -- essentially a saw blade arranged in a circle,
    and used to cut a plug through the wood.  They take quite a bit
    of power to drive (a 3/8" consumer drill is pretty weak for this size
    hole -- I say consumer drill because I have rented industrial 3/8"
    drills that can twist your arm off!) and the ones I have used are
    too shallow to cut through a 2x10 -- you end up drilling from both
    sides and hoping they meet in the middle.  Are deeper hole saws
    available?

    There's a note towards the end of this file and another a few
    back talking about venting through a window. The note a few
    back said this was not an option because plywood in a window
    looks bad. I agree. You don't have to use plywood though; you
    can easily use plexiglass. It lets light through and doesn't
    look bad at all.
    
    All you need is a scroll saw and an electric drill. Measure
    the size of the window pane you're removing and get 1/8 or
    3/16 plexiglass cut to that size at the hardware store. Measure
    the diameter of the vent. Sandwich the plexiglass between a
    couple of pieces of 1/4 (or whatever) plywood, lock it together
    with a couple of clamps, draw the outline of the vent on the
    plywood, and cut the hole with the scroll saw. The two that
    I've made were cut toward the bottom of the 'window' for
    aethestic reasons.
    
    Once you've cut the vent hole, insert the vent and mark on the
    plywood where the mounting screws go. Remove the vent and drill
    holes in the plywood/plexiglass very slightly smaller than the
    mounting screws. You can increase the diameter of the mounting
    holes in the vent and use small bolts. Either will work. YOu
    then remove the window if you haven't already and remove the
    pane you're replacing.
    
    Remove the plywood, but keep the backing material on the plexiglass
    and do a dry-run assembly to make sure everything fits. Assuming
    it does, and it should, you can then remove the backing material
    and put the piece of plexiglass in the window frame just like
    it was glass. Then you mount the vent. Then you connect the hose.
    I've used plastic and metal hose and highly recommend the metal.
    I think it exhausts better, looks better, and is more sturdy.
    
    (When I've done this, I've used more window points than I would
    use with glass for added strength and was pretty liberal with
    caulking compound I use instead of window putty.)
    
    It works pretty well, looks ok, and is not expensive.
    
    Charlie

Craig,

.24>	The next day, though, I got back to work from my Christmas vacation
.24>    to find this note talking about the gas dryer issues.  Well, as
.24>    luck would have it, I have a gas dryer.  The box is going to my
.24>    neighbor this evening...  (At least I know it works well from that
.24>    one load and am not sticking Bill with a lousy item!)
    
	Did your neighbor have a gas dryer as well ? :-)  Could be a neat
	solution to bad neighbors ! :-)
	
	Has your neighbor been using this thing ?  Could you possibly check
	with him and see how he's been doing ?  It _still_ may be a good
	winter solution with an electric dryer.
	
	Thanks.
	Scott.

    Re: .21
    
    What I did was to simply take my window frame to a glass company,
    and ask them to install a Lexan pane with a 4-inch hole cut in it.
    I returned later that afternoon, paid them less than $10, and got
    my window back, with a perfectly mounted Lexan pane that had
    a nice 4-inch hole in it.
    
    Why not pay the pros to do it right - it's cheaper than you think.
    
    As for looks - one pane is Lexan, the other is glass.  If I didn't
    tell you, you'd never know the difference.
    
    				Steve

Another question:  In classified_ads (i think) someone advertised an apartment
sized washer dryer combo, whose dryer runs off 110, and doesn't need venting.

So..............where does the moisture go?????????

Steve

    I dont think they can draw enough current to dry the clothes using
    heat, it just kinda beats the clothes silly until the water gives
    up and evaporates :^)  :^)
    
    ..at least thats been my experience
    
    ~jef

    .37:
    
    Well, either the water molecules are being dispersed throughout
    your laundry room, or you'll need one hell of a heat sink to deal
    with the energy released by the mass-to-energy conversion.
    
    Dick

    
    Re: .36
    
    	Scott,
    
    	Sorry for the late reply, but I just got back from a wonderful
    wonderful (and much needed :-) two week vacation...
    
    	Yes, my neighbor does have an electric dryer.  (And I also like
    those people a lot... :-)  A couple of weeks after I gave the vent
    to Bill, I asked him how it was working out.  He was very pleased
    with it and was happy that I suggested that he install it.
    
    							-craig

Thanks Craig.  I'm thinking of insulating a garage and then using one of
those gizmos to vent an electric dryer into it and see if I can heat the
garage a little.  Family of five generates alot of laundry....

Thanks.
Scott.

    	Scott,
        
    	For the price of the little gizmos, I'd say go for it.  Even
    with a family of 5, though, I wouldn't count on it providing all
    the heat you'll need for the garage.  (Understatement, probably...)
    I had bought mine on the basis of "why throw the heat away, might
    as well use it for something", not "lets heat the basement".  As
    long as your expectations are in the right place, you won't be
    disappointed.
    
    	Incidently, is the washer/dryer in the garage?  If not, how
    extensive will your piping have to be to route the hot air to the
    garage?  If its not a real easy (and cheap) job, you might find
    the cost and hassles of setting it up to be more than the amount
    of heat is worth.
    
    							-craig
    

The garage is right off the utility room where the dryer is.  Shouldn't
be much of a hassle at all....And yes, I don't expect much so I won't
be disappointed, and yep, my thoughts are the same, why waste a perfectly
good BTU ?

Thanks for all the input.
Scott.

    I'm sure this was raised earlier in replies to this topic, but I
    think it's important to reiterate: yes, you'll pump heat into your
    garage but the savings might not be worth the dust and moisture
    problems you'll introduce.  I don't care what kind of filter you
    attempt to use (which won't reduce moisture anyway), you'll find
    fine lint everywhere.

    Plus a garage that may feel like a swamp!
    
    Eric
    

Being born and raised in Mass, I can sympathize with those of you who
dislike the humidity -- I hated it.  But now I'm in Colorado and find
the exact opposite is true out here.  It's so damn dry a little humidity
would be welcome.

Scott.

    My beloved husband left a ballpoint pen in his jacket.
    It came through the washer OK, but you should see what it did
    to my dryer drum!
    Of course, all of the clothes that were in the dryer got spotted.
    I took them all to the dry cleaners and they came back good enough.
    
    Unfortunately, I can't get the darn blue stains out of the drum.
    I have tried Fantastic, Simple Green, and even full strength Clorox.
    It is a pretty new Whirlpool Dryer with every possible electronic
    option.  None of the blue stain is appearing on clothes that have
    been dried since the "accident", but it is very ugly.
    
    Any ideas?
    
    Terry

    Rubbing alcohol, maybe.

    Try lysol spray....
    
    Edd

    Have you tried calling Whirlpool's 800 number?
    
    pbm
    

    This may sound odd, but someone once told me that milk will remove
    ink stains from clothing; not sure if it will work on the dryer...
    
    
    shp
    

    These ideas are great.  I'll try them all this weekend.
    
    Wish me luck......
    
    Terry

    	Time to break out the solvents.  I'd start by cleaning it with
    paint thinner, if that doesn't work try acetone.  Remember solvents
    are flammable and acetone is inflammable.  If the dryer is electric,
    unplug it.  If the dryer is gas SHUT THE GAS OFF BEFORE USING
    SOLVENTS!! 
    					=Ralph=

>    	Time to break out the solvents.  I'd start by cleaning it with
>    paint thinner, if that doesn't work try acetone.  Remember solvents
>    are flammable and acetone is inflammable.  If the dryer is electric,
>    unplug it.  If the dryer is gas SHUT THE GAS OFF BEFORE USING
>    SOLVENTS!! 

Choose your solvents carefully!  What is the drum made of?  If it's
porcelain or enamel, you might be okay.  If it's plastic or has plastic
parts, acetone and other strong solvents will eat it.

Ball point pen ink is typically oil based, so start with mineral spirits
or other paint thinners.
But, it may just be too late.  The stain may have baked onto the finish.
If it's stable (not bleeding onto more clothes) it may be best to leave it.

    > Remember solvents are flammable and acetone is inflammable.

    Remember - Flammable and inflammable *BOTH* mean "will burn"...
    
    I think the above quote from .6 could easily be misinterpreted,
    possibly with unfortunate results for someone using acetone...
    
    Edd
    

    When I worked in a supermarket *long* ago we used to use a certain
    type of air-freshener to remove the price marking ink. I think it
    was Red Cap or something like that. It only came in a pump bottle,
    not aerosol. It disolved marking ink instantly. Maybe it would
    work on your dryer.
    
    		Mark
    

    I did the same dumb thing about a year ago.  "Off" and denatured
    alcohol took most but not all of the ink off.  What was left I assumed
    was absorbed into the enamel so wasn't coming off however much I tried
    and wouldn't come off onto clothing either.  So far, so good.  We
    may have dried some expendable clothes first, just in case. 
    
    Gary

    My mom always used hairspray to take ink out of clothing and I have
    used it with good results on other surfaces.
    
    -j

    I took your advice and called the Whirlpool 800 number and told
    them my sad story.
    They said this kind of thing happens all the time, and the only
    safe way to get rid of the blue stain is to bleach it out.
    They recommend saturating an old towel with bleach (Clorox) and
    just letting it sit on a section of the dryer drum.  They estimate
    that it will take 5-6 hours per section to bleach out the stain.
    They advise leaving the door open and running the dryer empty 
    after each section is finished to let the smell dissipate.
    
    Wish me luck......
    Terry

	Almost every 800 advice line will give you the best advice that
is safe for EVERYONE to do.  This means that the advice they give you 
can be performed by a child of 2.  
	My meaning is that there may be an easier way to do your task but it 
may require some common sense.  The advice most of these places give does not 
assume any common sense on the individual's part so they make it as safe and 
easy as possible so they will not get sued for milions for giving unsafe 
advice.

bjm

    	Re -.2: There are hole saws available in most hardware stores
        that are much deeper than the item you've described. I suspect
    	Somerville Lumber would have a 4" hole saw since they're a
    	plumbing supply house as well. I buy my smaller ones from them
    	for my locksmithing.
    
    		Charlie
     

My wife and I (especially my wife) are considering purchasing and install a
commercial size (and quality) (front-loading) washer and (gas) dryer. One of
those double or triple loaders. 

She is attracted to them for the obvious reasons - the ability to do twice or
thrice as much work per trip to the cellar, economies of a front-loading washer,
and the ability to get massive amounts of stuff dry NOW, etc...

I am attracted by the comparative quality of commercial machines. They (at least
the big, stainless steel ones) seem to be MUCH better built than normal, 
domestic machines and appear to be a better value (over the long term) for the
dollar than normal, domestic machines.

We have the space for them and are will to put out the bucks. Opinions, please?
How much DO they cost? Where can they be purchased (try going to Sears and 
asking for one 8'{) sometime...)? Can they be had used? From whome? 
More importantly - are they worth the money?

Thanks,

Brian

Look in the yellow pages under Laundry Equipment.  The big SS ones I'm familiar
with are Wascomats, made in Sweden.  The Wascomat distributor listed in the
Boston YP's is Garment Machinery Co. in Cambridge (868-6930).

    
    
    	If you want,call Hal. He is a friend of mine and does sale,service
    	and installation for the BIG stuff.
    
    		H.JANUS AND SON EQUIPMENT CO.
    		19 LAWRENCE ROAD
    		PLYMOUTH,MA 02360
    
    		Tel: 617.747.5734
    
    	He will install anywhere in New England.
    
    					Gerry
    
    	PS.  tell him you work with me ( Gerry Haviland ). I don't know
    	     if that will help ... but try anyway... 8^)....
    						gjh
    

    I OWN A LAUNDROMAT OUT HERE IN WMASS.  I HAVE 4 35 LB IPSO (MADE
    IN BELGIUM) THAT COST ME ABOUT 4K EACH 3 YEARS AGO.  REPAIRS HAVE
    BEEN LESS THE $25 SINCE I BOUGHT THEM AND EACH ONE DOES AN AVERAGE
    4 LOADS ADAY EVERY DAY.  WHAT AN EXCELLENT PIECE OF MACHINERY. 
    COUPLE THINGS ABOUT FRONT LOADERS THAT ARE GOOD TO KNOW.  FIRST
    THEY ARE WHATS CALLED A "FRICTION WASH"  IT IS THE FRICTION OF THE
    CLOTHES AGAINST EACH OTHER THAT CLEAN THEM.  (VS AN AGITATOR IN
    A TOP LOADER)   SO THE MESSAGE IS PACK THE CLOTHES IN AS TIGHT AS
    YOU CAN!!!  WHICH IS JUST THE OPPOSITE MESSAGE FOR TOP LOADERS.
     SECOND THE SPIN CYCLE REALLY GETS THE MOISTURE OUT, AND THEREFORE
    ARE MUCH CHEAPER TO DRY. THIS IS ESPECIALLY GOOD FOR JEANS AND HEAVY
    CLOTHES THAT JUST SUCK UP THE WATER.  TOP LOAD A PAIR OF JEANS AND
    IT WILL TAKE FOR EVER TO DRY THEM.   SO BOTTOM LINE FRONT LOADERS
    ARE WAY AHEAD OF TOPS, BUT ALSO CARRY THE COST.   YOUR BEST BET
    IS TO HIT A COUPLE LAUNDROMATS TO SEE IF THEY ARE GOING TO UPGRADE
    EQUIPMENT.  THIS IS ESPECIALLY TRUE UNDER NEW OWNERSHIP.  (THEY
    NEED THE DEPRECIATION OF THE NEW EQPT.)  ALSO FAILED BUSINEESS
    LIQUIDATORS,(EXAMPLE WE HAD A 1.5 YR OLD LAUNDROMAT GO UNDER HERE
    IN WFO LAST MONTH, AND THEY AUCTIONED OF HIS EQPT AT 25% OF WHAT
    HE PAID).  IF YOU SEND ME YOUR MAIL CODE I CAN HARD COPY YOU A TRADE
    MAGAZINE, AMERICAN COIN-OP, THAT IS JUST LOADED WITH ADDS FOR USED
    OR RECONDITIONED EQPT.  AT PRETTY GOOD PRICES BY THE WAY, THEY HAVE
    TO BE AS THEY ARE COMPETING WITH THE DISTRIBUTORS FOR THE NEW STUFF,
    AND A REPUTATION IS CRITICAL FOR REPEAT BUSINESS.    OH BROTHER,
    I JUST REALIZED I DID THIS IN CAPS,  SORRY,  BUT I'LL SIGN OFF FOR
    NOW ANYWAY.    LET ME KNOW HOW YOU MAKE OUT.
    
    WALT DAMON    WFOOFF::DAMON   242-2560

    me again, i remembered one other thing.  i am not an expert,so you
    may want to have an electrical expert verify this, but i remember
    during my fit up that my front loaders needed some kind of spaecial
    poweer requirement (3 phase?--what ever that is) so you may want
    to under stand the electric requirements.   also the size of your
    drain.  let me tell you when one of these babies decides its time
    to drain, look out it's like big time.  so also double check the
    required drain diameter, to carry the volume.
    
    walt damon

    
    
    If I remember correctly, my brother in-law owns a few laundromats
    in Souther N.H..  I am pretty sure he has Maytag or Whirlpool equipment
    and he buys them directly from the manufacturers.  You might want
    to look into this.  I do know that they are about $ 2-4K/pc.  Big
    bucks, but as you said you are willing to pay and this big babies
    do have their advantages.
    
    don
    

    Although it's been awhile since this note was active, I need to add to
    the discussion:
    
    My old Whirlpool electric dryer is getting flakey.
    
    It stopped heating up one day recently (blower still worked), so I opened 
    it up and checked the heating element and the three thermostats with my 
    meter and all showed continuity.  I cleaned out some lint and turned it 
    on and it worked for a few days, but then yesterday it stopped heating 
    again. I checked everything again and put it back together and it seems 
    to work again--but for how long?
    
    Anyone have any ideas why the thing is heating intermittantly?  
    
    I'm wondering if maybe one of the thermostats is flaking out?  What's
    the best way to test them?  And why would the dryer have 3 of them: 
    one located on the element sleeve (meltdown detector?), and two near the 
    blower housing (operating temp. sensors?)?  BTW, the dryer has two heat
    settings:  high and medium, and air only.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Brian

>    It stopped heating up one day recently (blower still worked),...

Check the breaker.  The blower runs between one leg and neutral, the heater
between the two legs.  So, if the right leg is down, the blower will run, but
it won't heat.

    >Check the breaker.  The blower runs between one leg and neutral, the
    >heater between the two legs.  So, if the right leg is down, the blower will
    >run, but it won't heat.
    
    Thanks for the suggestion. But if this is the problem, how do you explain 
    the fact that the heater seems to work intermittently?  Isn't a breaker 
    either tripped or not?  (I didn't reset it.)
    
    \Brian
    	

    
    *And why  would  the  dryer  have 3 of them:  one located on the element
    *sleeve (meltdown detector?), 
    *and two near the blower  housing (operating temp.  sensors?)?  BTW, the
    *dryer has two heat settings:  high and medium, and air only.

    You answered  all your questions.  One is indeed the overheat detector.
    One of the other 2 is the high heat thermostat, the other is the medium
    heat thermostat.  When you switch temperatures you are really switching
    between thermostats.    
    
    If the dryer is flaky  on  only  one  of  the  heat  settings, then the
    problem is probably the thermostat associated  with  that heat setting.
    Testing them is tough if they are intermittent, since Murphy's law says
    they will always work while you are testing  them.   If you could leave
    the voltmeter across them (one at a time) while the dryer runs and keep
    an eye on it you might catch it misbehaving.   If you can get the dryer
    to stay flaky for a while you can short across each  thermostat and see
    if the heater comes on.  For example, if the dryer is  on high heat but
    is  cold, and shorting across the high heat thermostat makes the heater
    come on, then the high heat thermostat is bad.
    

    Hoping this helps,
    gjd
        
    

    I had a similar problem a while back. After checking out the elements
    and arbitrarily replacing the thermostat, I still had intermittent
    heat. what I found was that the timer was worn _not bad_. The timer
    would keep time perfectly and start and stop the dryer just like it was
    supposed to except for the fact that I maybe would and maybe wouldn't
    heat up. The timer is tied into the temperature setting by way of a
    switch that rides on a cam attached to the timer shaft. The cam was
    worn down at the low end of the timer cycle. The part that gets used
    the most. If we set the timer for the longest period possible on the
    normal setting it opt hot and then about half way through it would cool
    down. blowers ran and time marched on but with no heat. The other
    cycles worked fine because they simply were not used as much. Rather
    than buy a new timer just for the worn cam I bent the contacts on the
    switch to compensate for the wear.  

    Isn't DIY fun? 8*) 

    
     I should not be the breaker. If one leg trips,It should take the
    entire breaker because they should be tied together at the lever. 
     The lever is the little switch leg that you move with your hand,I
    could not think of the real name.
    
    		Wayne

    Although its rare, I have seen one leg of a breaker have a problem
    without tripping at all! The connection on that leg only has a high re-
    sistance, causing an excessive voltage drop. A voltage check on both
    legs of the breaker while the problem is occurring would show this.
    A basic indication of this problem would be the breaker heating up.
    
    Eric

    After nine months, I finally got around to completing this project.  I
    wound up going through the siding where the foundation is notched for
    the basement window, rather than going through the band joist (which is
    supported by studs in this area).  I used an adjustable hole saw (2" to
    4", set at 4") on my 3/8 hp home-owner quality drill, with no problem,
    though I may have ruined the saw by cutting through the waferboard
    sheathing.  I forgot to allow enough room for the upper flange of the
    vent, so I still need to either trim the vent flange or chisel a notch
    in the clapboard.
    
    This location is a little bit lower down, though it's still a good two
    feet above ground level.  In addition to thorough caulking around the
    vent, and the lightweight flap in the vent, are there any other
    precautions I should take to prevent insects or other pests from
    entering?  I'm thinking of putting some screening or steel wool in as a
    barrier, even though I know it will rust out eventually.
    
       Gary

    RE: -.1
    
    	I suggest you do not add screening to the vent unless you are
    very sure of your drier's ability to catch *all* of the lint before
    it reaches the vent. Otherwise it'll collect at the screen, and
    clog up the vent long before it rusts out.

	What is the concensus about running dryer duct inside a wall cavity?

	I don't want the hose exposed.  I would like to go directly into the
	wall at the base of the dryer, elbow the duct up inside the wall and
	elbow out about 5ft from the floor outside.

	If I use the aluminum/stainless ducting or maybe even double wall duct
	will the setup take the heat?


					-=Dennis

    Turns out the problem must be in the timer or the high heat thermostat.
    
    When I set it on medium heat, the dryer works fine.  Fortunately,
    "medium" heat is plenty hot, so I'll just ignore the high setting (and
    problems).
    
    Thanks,
    
    Brian

	Can some one give me information on the subject of (bottled)
	gas dryers verses electric dryers?

	I currently have an electric dryer and have contemplated going
	to the bottled gas type dryer.  What type of help can I expect
	to get from the company that supplies the gas?  Do they supply
	the tanks for your use while you are getting your gas from 
	them?  How much work can I expect from them in the process of 
	installation?  Do you need a plumber for the gas line installation 
	from the tanks?   What type of method do they use in ensuring 
	that your tank gets "topped" off on a regular bases?

	Are the cost benefits enough to go this route?(Aside from the 
	initial installation)

	My electric dryer is getting "tired" so a change is in store
	soon.  That is why I am considering a switch over now.  I am
	aware that gas dryers tend to be a bit more expensive that electric.
	How are they in regards to maintenance and safety?

	Any "insider" information would be appreciated.

					Ken

	

I was amazed to discover that with nearly 3500 notes here, we don't have one on 
comparing electric to gas dryers.  So go at it, folks, with comparisons.

There are, however, a number of notes that have information you would find
useful about installing propane.  Check 1111.9 (appliances-laundry) and 1111.51
(heating-gas), particularly the latter.

Paul

I was given a gas dryer when I moved into my house which had no gas.  I simply
got a different nozzle, called different propane dealers, and chose one to come
to the house and install.  Installation included reaming the nozzle ('Wards sent
the wrong one), placing the tank outside, running the copper through the wall
and hooking up the dryer.  Total cost ~= .75hours@$35/hour.

Cost to run: With 4 in the house, 2 children under 5, gas costs $6 every 2 months.

    Gas dryers are cheaper to run but I can't imagine the difference
    is going to amount to all that much unless you dry clothes for a
    living.
    
    My wife claims that when we had a gas dryer it was much faster than
    the electric.  Again, I can't imagine you'd care with average use.

    As far as I'm concerned, the most important aspect of a dryer is
    whether or not it has one of those gizmos that shut off the dryer
    when the moisture level goes below a certain point.  No more under
    or over dried clothes with that (expensive) option. 

    I used to  have  a  gas dryer (which I made by Frankensteining old full
    size gas dryer parts  with an apartment sized electric) and it did work
    a lot faster than the  full size electric I have now.  I suggest you do
    care how long it takes cloths  to  dry,  because  if your wash cycle is
    shorter than your dry cycle the dryer  becomes  the  bottleneck.  Doing
    laundry  is enough of a drag without having  the  whole  process  take
    longer.  And not all wives are willing to do all the laundry!
    
    If I had gas where I live now I'd get (or make) a gas dryer in a minute
    (still have all those old gas parts....  :^) )

    gjd
    

    
    
    
    FWIW- Nozzel=Orfice(<-technical term)
    The propane orfice is smaller to compensate for the higher BTU 
    content in propane/LP gas -vs- natural gas.
    
    -j

    most gas dryers cost about $40 more than the comparable electric.
    
    
    JaKe
    

    The new issue of CONSUMER REPORTS (for October, I believe) mentions
    on its cover a review of dryers.
    
    Dick

    RE .1
    My washer IS the culprit but I don't know why.
    Some of the clothes we wash we line dry and the spots are on them
    too!  I noticed the agitator was cracked, so I replaed it but we
    still have the problem.  Where is the "level switch" that you mention?
    And when you mention OVERFLOWED did the washer actually overflow
    onto the floor or are you talking about a specific level the water
    rises to in the drum?
    

        I know this is not in line with previous discussions how ever
        it is an electric dryer problem.  Actually it could be a
        problem associated with either an electric or a gas dryer.

        For some time now I have had, intermittently, a loud squeal
        coming from my dryer as it operates.  I had this problem once
        before, years ago, with a gas dryer.  (That was my first
        experience at dryer repair.)  Any way the problem turned out
        to be an "idler" wheel that keeps steady tension on the drum
        belt.  It was a simple task to replace and the noise was gone.

        Any way my current problem has been intermittent squealing and
        like a good DIY person I reasoned that its only intermittent,
        I'll fix it one of these days.  In the mean time the heating
        element bit the dust.  I picked up an idler wheel at the parts
        store along with the heating element and installed them both
        during the repair.  I was elated that I once again have drying
        capabilities BUT the squealing is back, almost immediately!

        Does anyone have any ideas what other factors may cause the
        squealing noise.  I thought that maybe the drum may be
        slightly misaligned.  (The dryer seems to make some what of a
        loud tumbling noise though not REAL bad.)  I think I have
        herd newer dryers run quieter.  Is their some sort of bearings
        associated with the drum?  Could it be drum belt slippage?
        I inspected the belt but it appears to be ok.  One other thing
        that I suppose it could be is a motor bearing...?

        Thanks for any responses.

        Ken

	Hi Ken.....


	We had our 21 year old Maytag die just that way... (replaced the 
	washer/dryer - it was time, washer was still functional, but wife 
	wanted new!)

	You may want to check tension on the belt (or replace the belt, may
	 have stretch)... after fighting the same problem for over a year,
	the belt was okay, but the bearings in the main drum were freezing
	up.

	Good Luck!
	Tom

    re: sqeal.  It may be the back bearing on the dryer drum, if your
    dryer is built the same as mine.  Pull out the dryer and look on 
    the back for a bearing (or an an access plate to a bearing) where
    the center of the drum is.  My dryer has (well, had) a bushing in
    the back of the dryer, and a steel pin in the center of the back
    of the dryer drum rode in that bushing.  The bushing eventually
    wore out, the steel pin began to rub on the housing the bushing
    used to be in, and it squealed.  You ought to be able to buy a
    new bushing, if that's the problem. 

    Extending .5's comment on propane orfice vs natural gas (and staying on
    the gas vs electric theme):
    	Is the conversion from natural gas to propane as simple as getting
    a new orfice for the dryer?
    
    	I currently have natural gas but the house I will be moving into
    has propane available (not plumbed for the dryer) and I was thinking
    about selling the gas and getting a new electric dryer OR plumbing in
    the propane after we move in.  Since my wife likes things to happen
    yesterday (and she takes care of the laundry) I may try to convert my
    Westinghouse to propane.
    
    Comments?
    
    Brian

    Our house didn't have a propane connection for the dryer when we moved
    in, but the furnace was propane and only about 15 feet from where the
    dryer was to be placed.
    
    The conversion kit for my Matag dryer cost about $15 dollars and was
    installed by the gas company when they came to run the propane lines
    over to the dryer (Cost $100).  The kit itself was two orifices and a
    couple of stickers stating the dryer was converted to propane. Took
    about 5 minutes for the gas guy to install...
    
    With Electric in Sterling at 15 cents/KWh and propane around $1.25/gal
    I figure I'll recover the installation costs in 1-2 years.
    
    Chris.

    	I have a Kenmore gas dryer that's less than a year old (barely).
    When in use yesterday, you could smell gas pretty strongly both around
    the dryer and coming out the vent outside. The clothes in the dryer had
    the same odor. The strange thing is that the dryer heated up as usual
    and dried the clothes. There was also nothing blocking the vent. Air
    flow out the vent was as strong as usual.
    	Reading the manual, the dryer has a switch to turn itself off in
    the event the burner doesn't light. Since it was hot and dried the
    clothes, the burner must be lit. However, could it be that some of the
    gas is passing through unburned? I don't know much about how it works,
    and that's the only thing I can think of. There was nothing about this
    particular problem in the trouble-shooting guidelines.

Two related questions:

	Are you sure it was a gas smell and not another odor?

	Have you been doing anything near the laundry area lately which would
	  release solvents into the air?

We periodically had a problem where our laundry would come out smelling
horrible.  It seemed to be at very random times, and we couldn't come up with
any connection as to when or why it would happen.  It wouldn't be there for
months, then several loads in a row would smell, and then it would vanish 
again.

Finally, someone told us that the gas dryer will burn any solvents in the air,
causing smells like that.  We were then able to correlate the smelly laundry
loads with times that we had been polyurethaning various items in the basement.
Now we make sure that the laundry is caught up before doing anything in the
basement that will release solvents, and we haven't had a problem in a long 
time.

You should call the gas company.  They'll tell you whether the leak is
from the pipes or from the machine.  This is a potentially dangerous
situation, particularly with all those hot peppers around (oops, wrong
notesfile).

Trouble shooting gas problems is potentially dangerous.  If the smell of gas in
your house is stronger  than  a VERY SLIGHT whiff near the dryer, get out of the
house, leave the door open, call the fire department, call the gas company.

If the smell is faint or not there when you get home, I suggest that you open a
nearby window, shut off the gas to the dryer and call the gas company.  

It is possible that the  smell comes from something other than gas;  it is also
possible that the problem is not  there when the dryer is not in use.  However,
IF you have a gas leak, you  are  risking  a gas explosion.  Gas explosions are
messy; you should not take a chance.

Dave

    
    
    If you are sure it is gas, Call the gas company immediately- they have
    a portable combustible gas detector they canuse to pinpoint the leak.
    
      I suspect it may be another problem- over odorizing the gas. Natural
    gas has no odor and small amounts of mercaptan compounds are added to
    givr gas it's "stink"- these compunds also occur naturally (skunks).
    
     When I used to work for the gas company, it wasn't all taht unsusual 
    to over-odorize the gas- the smell will remain after the gas has burned.
    --Ever notice that if you are on propane (LPG) tanks that the gas
    stove starts to stink as the tank gets low?
      
     My advice is to call the gas company- ypu could be messing with a very
    dangerous leak.
     

    To answer the questions in .1, the odor was that of lighter fluid. At
    least, that's what it smelled like to my wife and I. We have a
    "strange" gas setup at our house. I live on a circle which has numerous
    tanks caged together with underground pipes bringing gas to all the
    houses in the circle. So I'm on a meter and it appears like normal
    natural gas. However, since it's in tanks, they refer to it as butane
    and all my appliances are setup for natural gas. I don't really know
    what butane smells like...but when the pilot went out in my gas stove
    once, it didn't have this lighter fluid smell to it.
    
    To answer the other question, I have not been doing anything in this
    area that might have released solvents into the air with the possible
    exception of spraying (with Raid) for ants.
    
    To answer other questions I've been asked, it only smells when I run
    the dryer. If I'm not running the dryer, I don't smell it. So I doubt
    it's a gas leak. I also don't smell it coming from any other gas
    appliances.
    
    Now that I've gotten some feedback, I'd suspect that perhaps the dryer
    was burning Raid or that there's some sort of problem/leak in the
    burner itself which only occurs when the dryer is running. Who should I
    call? Sears (it still should be under warranty)? Gas company (they've
    never been out to the house since I've lived there)? Plumber (he
    installed the dryer)?
    
    Maybe I should just bring down a box of matches and look for the leak
    myself! Just kidding, of course...

    I'd call the plumber who installed it.  He should at least be able to
    tell you whether the problem is the installation or something in the
    dryer itself.  IF it's the dryer itself, then obviously, call Sears.

    Try running the drier without heat turned on (Air only) and see if
    you can still smell it .... if so it isn't a gas problem at all.
    I'd wonder if it might not be one of those great sealed bering
    lubricants ... some of those have weird smell.

This apparently isn't the problem... but my gas stove smells like gas
about once a year.  The company that owns the tanks told me that that 
happens for a few days when one of the propane tanks is nearly empty
and it is about to switch over to the other one.  Beats me why that
should be so (and I'm not sure whether to believe them), but it is
true that one of the tanks is now pretty well empty.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

    My inlaws have propane and when it gets low they have gas smell
    problems.  We have natural gas and once in a blue moon we get a gas
    smell.

    re .8, .9  Someone a few back explained this - that the gas has no
    natural odor, so they ADD odorants so that you'll know right before you
    blow yourself up.  Apparantly the odorants have some settling quality,
    so near the end of the propane tank, it smells stronger.  On the
    Natural gas, I believe he said that at times they over-odorize the gas. 
    Ooops!

    It sounds like you may have a leak downstream from you dryer gas valve.
    If thats what it is you will only smell gas when the valve is open. I
    had this problem with a hot water heater I installed. You might want to
    call your plumber or the gas company to check it out. If you want to
    check it yourself mix a small amount of liquid soap with water in a spray
    bottle and spray it around the pipe joints, when spraying the pipe
    downstream of the dryer gas valve the burner must be on. If there is a 
    leak bubbles will form at the leak.  

    Here is a related question:

    I have a gas Maytag dryer.  I love it and have been using the Natural
    Gas that is piped in from the gas company.  I am relocating next month
    and plan to lease a house until ours is built (will probably take us a
    year or so).  Our house will have a propane tank, but the lease house
    only has electric.  So, I would like to use my dryer in the lease house
    and just, somehow, connect a small propane tank to it.  Here are my
    questions:

    1.  What do I need to do (if anything) to convert my dryer to propane
    	and use a small indoors tank?

    2.  Currently (I think) there is a pilot light in the dryer.  Will this
    	use up the propane in the tank?  If so, can I put some kind of
    	gizmo on the flame-part to make it start like my stove, ie.
    	"click click click flame"?  (sorry for the lack of technical 
	terminology)

    3.  Should I worry about a propane dryer and an oil-heat furnace
	in the same utility room?

    Thanks for any advise, clarification, etc.


	Karen
    

Propane isn't supposed to be stored indoors.  Unlike methane, propane is 
heavier than air.  If there's a leak, it will collect inside until something
sets it off, at which point, you don't want to be around.  

Unless the lessor is willing to let you put in an outside tank, and pipe it
in, you're better off sticking with an electric dryer.

   Gary

    
    You will need to get the dryer re-configured for the LP gas. I'm
    about to do this. I've heard it costs $25-50 to have this done.
    Just tell the LP people and they will come out and do it.
    
    If you get it done before me, let us all know...

    
    While not a problem I had an old GE Dryer that died not too long
    ago.  After many, many fixes I decided to let this one go and send
    it to the dump.
    
    I did save the motor with hopes I can make a bench grinder out of
    it.
    
    My question is how would I hook up a switch?   This is the set up
    from what I can remember.
    
    Layout on side of motor:
    
    
    #4 Yellow/Black wire      #5 Blue Wire    #2 Black
    
    #6 Brown          #1 Black
    
    
    Instructions on panel:
    
    1- Terminal Black Ground
    
    2- High limit
    
    3- Door Switch
    
    5  Start Heat Switch
    
    6- timer
    
    Can I hook something up?
    
    Cal.
    

    Since I have just put in a dryer (basement) I thought I would resurect 
    this note.  Does anyone know the maximum distance a dryer vent can
    run ??  My dryer is about 4 foot from the side wall in the front of
    the house.  I do not want to vent it to the front, but rather through
    the casement window (as mentioned earlier).  But the total distance
    is about 15 - 17 feet.....  Will this be problem ???
    
    	Thanks,
    
    	Steve

    Gee, funny you should mention that; I spent several days trying to
    get a definite answer from appliance manufacturers on the maximum
    length of a dryer vent.  No one could give me an answer.
    
    SO, I decided to run about 17 feet of METAL ductwork from the
    laundry area to an exterior wall.  Why metal, you ask?  Well,
    I figured the flexible plastic stuff would sag and build up
    lint; plus, those sags would be a great place to collect any
    condensation from the exhaust.
    
    I oriented all ductwork so the corrugated end faced AWAY from
    the dryer (in the direction of the air flow), and taped all
    joints with duct tape; all length-wise seams are on the upper
    third of the ductwork.  I have a slight (few degree) slope
    from the dryer to the exhaust hood to drain any built-up condensation.
    I used a short length of flexible plastic ductwork to connect
    the dryer outlet to the exhaust run.
    
    The set-up works fine; plenty of air volume coming out the
    exhaust hood.
    
    BTW, I stayed in a condo for a few months which had a dryer
    vent leading to the outside; total length of run was in the
    neighborhood of 20 feet.

    Mine goes straight up fo 8', then straight back for 11'.  I have no
    problems, so I don't think you will.
    
    Chris D.

Should be no problem if you use metal ducting.  Probably no problem if you
use flexible metal ducting.  Don't use plastic/wire ducting.

			Steve

    -1
    
    What would be a problem if I use plastic brand?

Anybody got a 4" hole saw they would lend out?  I'm installing a dryer and need
to bore some holes for the exhaust.  Thanks

Steve

This is in the Marlboro, MA area

    The plastic-coated wire ducts have the highest resistance to air
    movement, and also tend to trap lint the fastest.  I would avoid using
    them no matter how short the run.  The flexible metal ducting works
    well, doesn't restrict the air flow much more than straight metal, and
    can be expanded to just the necessary length.  But for a run of over
    eight feet, I'd want to use metal duct.
    
    			Steve

    Re .32:
    
    A 4-inch hole saw will be a REAL tight fit for metal ductwork
    or the exhaust hood.  A 4-1/4-inch works much better.

A 4" hole saw works fine for the dryer vent kits that are sold.  I have
installed many of them.  A little tight, maybe, but you want it that way.

bjm

    Mine goes up 10 feet and over about 20 feet for a total of 30 feet. 
    Been fine for 3 years.  I used smooth plastic pipe.  Just make sure
    it's supported so it doesn't sag.  Most plastics don't melt till you
    get to  the 400 degree F range, so heat isn't a problem.  This is on an
    electric dryer.  I have no idea if it applies to a gas dryer.  
    
    Carl
    

    Related to venting a clothes dryer...I do *not* recommend the
    vent outlets (the part that goes through the wall) being sold 
    by Spag's.  These have no hood over the opening, just a series
    of pivoted louvres (sort of like a louvred window shutter) that
    in theory close tightly to keep out the weather.  Well...they don't.
    After that heavy rain of a few days ago, the dryer wouldn't work.
    When I investigated, I discovered that the dryer hose was full of
    water!  Some of the water had even gotten into the bottom of the
    dryer itself.
    I have since made an aluminum hood to go over the outside of the
    dryer vent, and I assume that will solve the problem.
    
    Has anyone used one of the Spag's dryer vent outlets successfully?
    Do I just have a peculiar situation, somehow?

    I have previously used the louvered dryer vents and had
    good success.  They close fairly tight and don't let a lot
    of cold air in during the winter.  However, mine was in a fairly
    protected spot, and it wasn't exposed to rain, even in storms
    like over the past 2 weeks.  So I can't offer any help
    there.  The hood should work.
    
    When we had our addition put on, I had 2 problems:
    
    1. Now had to run my dryer exhaust about 20 feet away
    2. When it exited the house, it had to go straight down,
       with little-to-no outward venting (deck location)
    
    So, I solved it as follows:
    
    1. For the long run, I pieced together 4" metal pipe (like stove
       pipe but for dryers I presume).  I screwed it together and also
       put silicone on each joint.  The horizontal run is about 15' and
       I get no sag at all.  Seems to do the job well.
    
    2. For the exhausting, I wound up buying the exhaust vent that's
       sold by brookstone.  If you haven't seen it, I'll try to 
       describe it.  The vented air comes out of the house, then goes
       straight up.  Sitting right on top of this is a "hood" that will
       then force the air down, all around the pipe that's going up
       (imagine a garden hose pointed straight up, and an inverted bowl
       causing the water to come back straight down).  the final piece
       of this mechanism is a floating cap.  It rests right on top of
       the upward exhaust pipe, and inside of the "bowl".  When the dryer
       vents, it causes the cap to rise (kind of like those beach balls
       sitting on top of fans as display items in stores).  When the
       dryer shuts off, the cap floats down and rests back on the exhaust
       pipe.  
    
    So far, this mechanism has worked well (2 years).  My only problem,
    which is assocated with the long run, is that once the floating cap
    "froze" to the exhaust pipe.  When I turned the dryer on, the cap
    wouldn't rise, and thus the warm exhaust never really made it to the
    vent to thaw the cap.  Result - I burned out the ignitor in the
    dryer.  The fix was very simple.  I drilled 2 small holes in the
    cap itself, to allow air to flow thru the cap even if it was frozen
    in place.  That way, the warm air would make it to the vent and thaw
    anything that was frozen, and open right up.  This fix has worked
    find for the past 1.5 years, and still doesn't let any cold air
    in during the winter even with the drilled pinholes.  Why did the
    floating cap freeze to the vent?  It seals so well that the moisture
    from the previous drying time was still along the edge of the cap,
    and then froze when the cap settled down.  Guess it's the drawback
    to this type of setup - but my modification has made it successful
    once again.
    
    andy
    

	The argument I've seen against plastic dryer vent pipe is
	that, while the plastic pipe may hold up to the dryer heat,
	it won't hold up as well as aluminum duct should a lint
	build-up in the duct ignite.

My Sears gas dryer's installation instructions specifically warned NOT to use
plastic vent duct.

			Steve

    If venting to the outside is not possible, there are units available
    that will vent the air to a bucket-type vent with water in the bottom
    to catch the lint.  The air flows over the water and dumps the lint
    into the water.  You have to empty it every couple of loads, but this
    works fine when you don't/can't vent it outside.
    
    Patrick    

    As long as you don't mind a lot of humid hot air being pumped into your
    house.  We have the water in a bucket set-up because I have not yet run
    the duct work to the exterior.  Let me tell you, in the summer the
    house gets REAL hot and humid.  Unbearable in my opinion.  In the
    winter it still puts too much humidity in the air.  Better than pumpin
    gthe lint into the house but still not a good solution.

    In my house we have a box that is in line with the dryer hose that
    we can select to have it vented in the house or outside.  So in
    the summer we vent it outside and during the winter we vent it inside.
                                                                           
    The bois made out of plastic and has a mechanical switch to select
    the position.  It also has a fine screen on it to filter the dust.
    
    I don't know where you can get one as mine came with the house.
    But I like it.
    
    As far as the dust goes...  I don't care, because it's in the basement.

    I guess this is as good a place as any to stick this note.  My in-laws
    dryer went south.  It is of an advanced age.  They moved it into the
    house 28 years ago with them.  It is a Hamilton gas dryer.  Inspection
    of the moving parts indicates the electric motor that turns the drum
    burned out.  It hums but doesn't turn.  When the 1" layer of lint was
    removed there were indications of what looked like burning.  They are
    in a financial bind due to a long illness and just can't afford a new
    dryer.  Can I get a similar electric motor and repair this thing?  What
    is such a motor likely to cost?  Am I crazy to try this?
    
    My first inclination is to find an inexpensive used gas dryer for them. 
    If anyone knows of one please mail me.  Transportation is another
    problem.  I have only have cars with limited trunk space.
    
    Stan
        

    Many motors use a capacitance start. The capacitor kind of gives
    the motor a good kick when you turn it on to get it started. Check
    to see if there is a large capacitor mounted on the motor or near
    it with wires going to the motor. If so, chances are good that the
    only thing needing replacement is the capacitor as they dry out
    with age and slowly stop functioning properly.
    
    Ray

There should be several places you can take the motor and have them
tell you how much, or even if, a replacement would be.  In the Quincy
area there are at least three I can think of off the top of my head. 
Look in the yellow pages under Electric motors.

Brian

    Once you've replaced the motor, you should also look into
    replacing the felt gaskets (assuming it has some). The fact that
    the motor was covered with lint suggests that the gaskets are worn
    and not all of the lint is being sucked through the filter.

    At least, that's the experience I had when my dryer started
    shutting down when the motor's overhead sensor kicked in. (Which
    is something to look for in a new motor...)

    In regard to repair rather than purchase of electric motors, "a user"
    of my table saw (herein to remain nameless) managed to "burn out" the
    motor, and I started looking for a replacement. In general, 1-horse
    electric motors were being offered in the $145-165 range - a teensy
    pricey for my liking, so I went to Yellow Pages in search of Electric
    Motor - Repair entries and came up with one in my area.
    
    I lugged the motor in (a 1949 Craftsman motor) and asked the guy for an
    estimate. A week later I called to see how the estimate was coming and
    he asked me how much I wanted to spend on it! No, I said, the idea is
    you tell me what it might cost, and then I decide. (Sounded like a
    rip-off headed my way). His response was ..
    
    		Maybe $20 to $30 bucks!
    
    As you can imagine, I now have a functioning motor again. He told me
    when I picked it up that IF they stiull made motors like that one it
    would probably cost in the range of $400 to get it replaced.
    
    So try the Yellow Pages FIRST for a repairman.
    

    I have a problem with my MAYTAG electric dryer. Lint keeps escaping
    through the filter and goes out the vent pipe. The filter used to trap
    the lint but no longer does. I've replace the filter screen with no
    effect. I've also replaced the screen and holder from another older 
    Maytag dryer that worked in the older one but not in the newer one.  
    
	Does anyone know where the lint is escaping from. I've taken the
    back of the dryer off and can only see on way for lint to get to the
    vent pipe. (via the filter). Any ideas what the problem is ? Thx.

Yup, you need to replace the felt gasket on the front of the drum. (This sounds
exactly like the problem I had a while ago.)

As the drum turns, the gasket is supposed to maintain contact with the front 
of the dryer. As it ages and shrivels from the heat (it's right near the
heating coil), it no longer maintains contact with the front of the dryer,
and the airflow gets screwed up. I don't remember exactly what path it took,
but lint ended up coating the motor, the inside of the dryer, and found its
way back into the vent. You could also get a char odor as some lint passes by
the heating coil.

You need a new felt gasket and special adhesive (available from Maytag
parts places) to install it with. The gasket is wide enough that when it's
installed right, it bends backwards when the cover of the dryer is loaded back
around the drum.

This took me a while to figure out. (15 year old Maytag electric dryer.)

Of course, if it's something else, and you waste $6-10 bucks on parts, you 
didn't hear the suggestion here...

    My electric dryer does not dry the clothes as good as it should.  It
    was working fine until about a month ago.  One day, when taking clothes
    out, I could hear a noise.  After some checking, I found that if I put
    my hands against the sides of the drum, I can move it front and back. 
    When I move it front, I can see a space all around the back of the
    drum.  Is this normal?  Is this causing my problem?  Is this a DIY or a
    repairman's job?  BTW, it's a Whirlpool.
    
    Chris D.

    
    re .6:
    
    I've just been there, so let me take a stab at diagnosing...
    
    One of your drum support rollers has bitten the dust. The fix is
    relatively easy.
    
    On my Kenmore, they are two rubber wheels, about 4" diameter, mounted
    on the back wall of the dryer, one at about 3:00 and one at 7:00 when
    looking from the front of the dryer. The low one bears most of the
    drum weight and seems to go first; the other is basically counteracting
    the pull of the drive belt. The front of the drum is supported by a felt
    gasket and nylon ring that mate the drum to the front wall.
    
    When a support roller is no longer supporting, the drum is resting
    directly on the rear wall and chewing up the fabric rear drum gasket.
    Having consumed the rear gasket, it will start on socks, shirt collars,
    bra straps etc. You should replace the drum support rollers immediately.
    
    Again on my Kenmore, I did the following:
    
    	o  Remove top cover. AFTER removing the screws from the lint trap,
           pull up on the front of the dryer top, and it will unsnap and
           pivot to the back. I just put a support behind it and left it
           swung up, rather than removing (insure, though, that it won't
           come crashing down and damege fingers).
    
    	o  Remove the dryer front. Remove the two screws from the top
           inside of the front panel, then pull the panel up to release the
           bottom clips. Have someone support the drum.
    
    	o  The drum motor and belt tension wheel are below the drum, setup
           is similar to a 10-speed bike derailleur. Push on the tension
           wheel and disengage the belt. The drum should now come forward
    	   and out freely, and the support wheels will be visible. Inspect
           the rear drum gasket and drive belt for possible replacement.
    	   Vacuum out all the lint, sock pieces and spare change that have
    	   fallen through the gap at the rear of the drum during the past
           month.
    
    	o  A support wheel comes as a kit with snap washers to keep it in
           place on it's axle. Replace wahsers and wheels.
    
    	o  If you replace the rear gasket (hey, as long as you're in	
    	   there...)
    
                o  Stand drum on end, rear up
    
    		o  Scrape off what's left of old gasket and adhesive
    
    	        o  Replacement gasket comes as a kit with hi-temp adhesive
    
    		o  Put new gasket in place, hold with about a dozen 
                   spring-type clothes pins (masking tape pieces work
                   in a pinch [hah]). BE SURE TO ORIENT GASKET PROPERLY -- 
                   THERE IS A FRONT AND A BACK -- READ DIRECTIONS. My
                   replacement had red stitching on the rear side. It will
    		   be a tight fit.
    
    		o  In turn, remove each clothes pin. Squirt a little
                   adhesive under the gasket, replace clothes pin.
    
    		o  Adhesive sets up pretty fast - remove clothes pins when
                   dry.
    
    	o  Replace the drum atop the support wheels and have someone
           support the front, while you slowly turn it and check the seating
           of the rear gasket, which should flare out slightly against the
           rear wall. If you installed a new gasket, it probably folded
           inside in places; let the front of the drum drop a bit to give
    	   you some working room, and gently pry out the gasket with
    	   something thin and dull, like an old putty knife.
    
        o  Drape drum belt over drum, thread onto drive and tension wheels.
    
    	o  Replace front -- snap in bottom snaps, mate drum front with felt
           bearing, re-attach top screws. At this point, there should be
           little if any front-rear play in the drum, and it should turn
           with little resistance; go through a turn or two to verify belt
           placement and rear gasket seating.
    
    	o  Replace cover; don't forget the lint trap screws.
    
    BTW, I think the correct names for replacement parts are:
    
    	drum rear gasket
    
    	drum drive belt
    
        drum support rollers
    

    Here's a problem I haven't found discussed in the random
    dryer notes.  Last night, there was an odd smell coming from
    the laundry room, and it can best be described as a smell
    coming from a wood stove.  I took the clothes out of the
    dryer, and they had the same smell.  It seemed to linger after
    the dryer stopped, and didn't get worse once I put the dryer back
    on again.
    
    I took the lid off of the dryer, and noticed that the smell was
    stronger, and I noticed some "singed" lint inside the unit.  I
    then removed the front of the dryer, and removed the drum.  What
    I saw was startling.  The inside of the dryer had a thin layer
    of lint in various places, and it was ALL singed black.  It was
    especially black in the vicinity of the burner, but it didn't
    appear as though the burner had "blown" or anything.  I removed
    as much of the lint as I could, and examined everything (wires,
    burner, pulley's, etc) and everything looked fine.  The only thing
    I could find out of place was a 6"x6" piece of
    fireproof-looking-cardboard that was sitting below the burner, kind of
    lying there "out of place".  It, like other areas, had singed lint
    on it.
    
    My suspicion is that this piece of "board" caused a part of the flame
    to stray away from the burner chamber and ignite a piece of the
    lint.  Since lint can be flamable, it caused a "flash" fire inside
    of the dryer, lasting only a split second, enough to give a rotton
    smell to the dryer and blacken the lint.  After removing the lint,
    almost nothing is charred, except a small piece of the felt around
    the drum.
    
    I've got a service person coming this weekend to check it out, and make
    sure it was simply a "quirk" problem instead of somthing more
    important.  I'm especially interested in that piece of "board" I
    found lying there.
    
    Anyone else have any experience with this type of phenomenon?  It
    was a first for me....
    
    thanks,
    andy
    

    
    I just recently added a reply in another note, about replacing some
    dryer parts. I got started on the job because of a lint fire.
    
    I my case, bad drum rollers had allowed the drum to come away from the
    rear wall, letting lots of lint, sock pieces etc gather under the drum.
    As I reconstructed the scene, there is a large hole in the bottom of
    the rear wall, adjacent to the air inlet of the heater stove. So much
    lint built up that it eventually found its way through that hole, got
    sucked up into the electric element and started the fire, which
    quickly spread to the rest of the lint. The fire was rapidly out,
    because a plastic pen in the debris was hardly melted. No other damage
    was sustained, and having replaced the worn rollers that started the
    problem, the dryer is now working fine. I will, however, remove the
    front panel and vacuum out the dryer once a year from now on.
    

    
    	Yup,  I saw the same thing as I was replacing parts in mine
    	and was also shocked.  Now every few months I run my shop vac
    	hose inside and around the burner unit to suck up any lint
    	that may have gathered.  I never even knew it was there until
    	I started working on it.
    
    	-TB

    Just to follow up,  I had the service guy come out this weekend
    to check everything out (I don't mess to much with Gas things
    in situations like this...), and it all checked out OK.  We cleaned
    the thing out really well, and scraped some of the "charring" off
    of the drum gasket.  Put it back together, fired it up - and we're
    back in business.  Only had 1 charred wire in a single spot, which
    was easily corrected.  
    
    In summary - the only way we knew there had been a fire was the
    "smoke smell" from the clothes coming out of the dryer.  The "fire"
    lasted less than a second and never was any danger to the outside
    of the dryer.  The service tech said these are more common than
    you'd think, and that ours wasn't too bad at all.  The worst he'd
    seen was one where down feathers were involved - apparently smelled
    like h*ll!!!  
    
    His suggestion - as was iterated in a reply back - was to vacuum out
    the lint inside of the dryer regularly to avoid any of these flash
    fire problems.  They usually don't fry ther dryer, but they do 
    create a risky situation.....
    
    andy
    

    
    Just wanted to say thanks for the last few replies as I too
    experienced a dryer fire, right after doing a load
    of laundry and ending up with a bunch of blue clothes.
    No, they weren't all blue when I started...
    
    Anyhow, thanks for the info.
    
    							Hank

      I've  searched  as  best  as  I  can  and I found nothing about my
      particular problem.  If its already discussed, please point me  to
      the right place.
      
      We have a GE electric dryer that is about 11 years old.  About two
      moths ago it developed the following problem.  The dryer has three
      cycles  on  the timer -- two automatic cycles (regular and gentle)
      which sense moisture, and one cycle that runs strictly as a  timer
      with no moisture sensing.  The timed cycle works fine.  Neither of
      the automatic cycles work. Both of them will tumble, but the dryer
      doesn't heat and the timer doesn't move.  The exception to this is
      that if you set the timer near the end of either  automatic  cycle
      it does move and shuts off in 5-10 minutes, but still does not get
      hot.
      
      This  sounds  to me like I need a new timer, but its also possible
      that the moisture sensor could be bad.  Is anyone familiar  enough
      with this type of controls to know where I should start?
      
          Thanks in advance.

My Kenmore electric dryer has this moisture sensor also.  The documentation
states that the timer only advances if the moisture sensor is happy (thus,
wetter loads run longer, as desired).  If the moisture sensor is broken, the
timer won't advance.

Before you replace the timer, check out the moisture sensor.  Look in your
schematic to see how it connects to the timer, and check out the wiring.
Since the timer works in "no sensor" mode, I doubt it's the timer.

>My Kenmore electric dryer has this moisture sensor also.  The documentation
>states that the timer only advances if the moisture sensor is happy (thus,
>wetter loads run longer, as desired).  If the moisture sensor is broken, the
>timer won't advance.
>
>Before you replace the timer, check out the moisture sensor.  Look in your
>schematic to see how it connects to the timer, and check out the wiring.
>Since the timer works in "no sensor" mode, I doubt it's the timer.

      Yes,  this  was  my  "first  cut"  at diagnosis.  What causes me a
      problem is that there is no heat.  Does the heat shut of when  the
      moisture sensor says "no moisture", or when the timer runs down to
      a certain point?

    IN a similar vein to Charlie's notes, we're having drying problems
    with our dryer on "auto dry" as well.  In our case, things are
    getting hot and drying out - however, not all of the way.  Some
    of the thicker items are still damp, and if you run it on timed
    cycle for about 10 minutes, everything's ok.  In taking the dryer
    apart last week (the remnants of a lint fire - see other note),
    I noticed the 2 sensors that were located just past the lint filter
    at the bottom of the dryer.  Both are lint-free, and the connections
    are clean and solid.  (note - this was an on-going problem prior to
    the lint fire, so it's nothing caused by it).
    
    So - do these sensors behave such that they'll lose some sensing
    action, but not all of it (like Charlie's case)?  I can easily get
    the part numbers and get 2 new sensors, but if they're a work/no work
    set up, then they probably aren't the problem, since it's the level
    of dryness that's at issue.
    
    thanks,
    andy
    

    
    This may be insultingly obvious, but...
    
    Is the lint trap clean? Is the vent to the outside clear of
    obstructions?

    re: .25
    
    Me - be insulted?  Never!  :-)
    
    Yep, they're clean - first thing I checked.  When I took the front
    cover off of the dryer, I checked all of the "internal" passages
    as well as the flexible pipe - all clear.  Once you've had a lint
    fire, you're VERY aware of lint EVERYWHERE!!
    
    thanks for the tip, though.
    
    andy
    

    One problem I had with a Kenmore dry was that the cams the timer
    contacts ride on were worn. These cams are a fiber material similar to
    what the brown printed circuit board bread board phenolic, and it wears
    fairly quickly. I took the timer apart _____VERY CAREFULLY__ bent the 
    cam follower to the right position and put it back together. works fine. 
    The last 10 min.or so of the dry cycle, even in normal mode is a cool down.
    What happened was that the dryer thought it was always in that cool down 
    period. While you have the timer apart use an emery board and very
    gently clean all contacts on the cam and cam follower.

    I have just developed a problem with my Kenmore dryer...it is a very
    basic model..just a timer with time settings..after it has been working
    for about 30 min. or so and I open it to check the clothes I can't get
    it to start again...until it has sat for 30-45 min....then it strats
    right up and runs fine...also now when I start it up when I push the
    timer knob in to start it I am hearing a loud sound almost like a buzz
    but more intense..kinda like bbbbbrrrraaaakkkkk..and the motor is
    taking longer to start...I'm wondering if the two problems are
    related...and do the motors have starting caps...are they
    replacable..how to check...is the motor going bad? how to tell ? the
    dryer is @10yrs old...I've replaced the heating element & the
    thermostats on previous occasions...

I have an Kenmore electric dyrer that is having problems with the automatic
(non-timed) cycle.  The two timed cycles work fine but the third cycle won't
stop!  Basically, it ran continuously for over a day until I asked my wife in
the morning if she was doing a load of wash and she said "who me?  I thought
you were doing one."  (I then realized it was the load I put in the dryer two
days ago!)

Anyway, I took the timer/dial unit apart, cleaned the contacts and verified
that it is working properly.  After examining the circuit diagram on the back
of the machine, and doing me best to understand it (I do software :-)), I've 
concluded that one of the thermostats must be malfunctioning.  There are two
such devices: one on the heating element, and one on the exhaust duct.  Sears
told me they cost ~$12/each so I'd like to figure out which is broken, rather
than order both.  

Both thermostats are wired such that when either one or both is/are "closed"
power will be supplied to the timer.  Since the time doesn't appear to run, I
assume neither are ever closing.  With the dryer off, both are "open".  

How can I determine which is malfunctioning?  (I.e., What condition should
cause one or the other to close?)  If I run the dryer with no clothes, should
the exhaust one "close" pretty quickly?  Can I take one off light a match under
it to test it (checking to see if the switch closes)?

From reading previous replies and looking at the wiring diagram, this is my
understanding of how it works...   As the clothes dry, more heat is passed
through to the exhaust, which eventually will trip (close) the exhaust
thermostat, thus starting the timer so the cyle will end (in a fixed amount of
time).  Does the heating element thermostat work in the same way  (If it gets
too hot, it will trip (close) such that the cyle ends in a fixed amount of
time)?  What would cause the heating element thermostat to get too hot?

Any tips would be appreciated.
                                                               _Mike

I donot think that you have a problem with the thermostats. On
thermostat detects over heat condition while the other is design
to measure the heaty rise as the cloths loose moisture; starting
the timer circuit to cycle the cool down part of the auto-dry
cycle.

I believe that you may have a heat element open. I beliebve that
there are two elements and one may have failed so that the dryer
may not reach full heat.

Other things to check is the wires; they will fracture where the
crimper is too tight around the plastic coat of the wire.

cal

    Re. 24
    
    <IN a similar vein to Charlie's notes, we're having drying problems
    < with our dryer on "auto dry" as well.
     
    I seem to remember my parents having a similar problem several years
    ago with the moisture sensor, and the cause was attributed to a
    film building up on the sensor coming from one of those kinds of
    dryer sheets--the kind that reduces static cling.  Now, my memory is 
    kind of vague here, but I believe they did something to clean this
    film, stopped using the dryer sheets, and haven't had problems since.
           
    Sorry this is vague,
    Greg B.             
    that 

    Just to follow up on my earlier note (auto dry not drying all of
    the way), I replaced the 2 main t-stats and things seem to be
    drying much better now.  I believe the main "control" t-stat
    was not letting the clothes dry enough, thus causing the timer
    to shut off too early.  When I got the replacement t-stat, 
    I noticed it had a different "design" than the older one - so
    don't know if it's really different or not - but, for now, things
    work much better.
    
    andy
    

>I believe that you may have a heat element open. I beliebve that
>there are two elements and one may have failed so that the dryer
>may not reach full heat.


I looked at it again last night.  It looks like there was only one large
heating element.  But either way *all* the coils turned red hot as soon as I
turned the dryer on, so I'm not sure that's the problem.  I also ran a large
load through the timed cycle for ~30 mintes and things got mostly dry (I didn't
think 30 min. was enough to fully dry it anyway.)  So it seems to have adequate
heat.  Also, while observing the elements, they were cycling on and off, which
would indicate that it was reaching the proper heat (just like an oven would
do), right?

>Other things to check is the wires; they will fracture where the
>crimper is too tight around the plastic coat of the wire.

Since the coils get red hot, I assume there's no problem there.  Also, if I
jumper over the thermostat leads the timer works just fine.  That's why I
suspected them.  

Cal, are you still convinced it's not the thermostats?


With the dryer empty and on the automatic cycle, should the timer come on after
say as little as 10 minutes?

Also, back to my original question in .28...  From what I'm hearing, the
thermostat on the heating element should only close in extreme situations
(maybe dryer too full and inlet blocked so heating element duct overheats)? 
Thus, the exhaust thermostat is the only one that should at some point close
during a normal automatic cycle (as the clothes dry out)?


                                                                 _Mike

Mike,

You did all that I would have done. I had a pair of Sears washer
dryer years back (avacado coloured so that tells you how old they
were). It had the old coiled elements. and that was the same
problem that I had. Every case is different.

Sorry I wasn't much help.

cal

Well, I tried one more thing.  I took the exhaust thermostat off and hooked it
up to my multi-meter and then held it in front of my hair dryer.  After about
30-45 seconds, the switch closed (power to the timer).  I removed it from the
heat and in a few seconds it cooled down and the circuit closed.  

So should I assume that the exhaust thermostat is functioning?  Or could it be
not triggering until it's too hot (hotter than the dryer ever gets)?  Or is the
problem related to not enough heat being generated?  If I take the duct off the
back of th dryer and feel the heat generated (when empty), should it be pretty
hot (too hot to hold my hand there), or only warm?

Anyone have any more suggestions on how I can more exactly determine which
piece is malfunctioning?

                                                                   _Mike

We had a similar intermittent problem that took us the longest time to figure
out.  We finally correlated it to times that we were finishing furniture or 
other wood things in the basement, and solvents from the finishes were in the
air.  We have a gas dryer, so it may be different because we were actually 
burning the solvents.  But it's worth a thought.

Paul

Moisture in dryer vent problem:

I have  a dryer in a finsihed basement with about 10 feet of flexible
plastic dryer duct up to where it exits the house (just above the sill).
The problem is that large amounts of water condenses and collects at the 
low point...if I lift up on the saggy point of the hose, perhaps a
quart will dump onto the floor.

Any idea how to address this? I have to move the dryer even further away
now....am considering using solid aluminum or plastic 4" duct...
will the metal tend to agravate this problem? Have other people seen this
phenomenon? Will the use of a solid duct preclude having a "low point" 
where such moisture can collect?

    re: .38
    Are you sure the problem is condensation, or is rain/moisture entering
    the opening on the side of the house?  I had that happen to me in a
    big way when I installed a new dryer vent.  I used the louvred type
    (from Spag's), not the more common type with a flap and a shield over
    the flap, and wind-driven rain just ran in the hose.  Since then I've
    put an aluminum shield over the outlet, and that's taken care of the
    problem.

    I am getting ready to replace the gas dryer in my home. I would
    like some thoughts about the differences between a gas and
    electric dryer. I would like to know which is cheaper to operate.
    Our dryer is running almost all the time , it seems so I would
    like to know if it would be cheaper for me to switch to electric
    this time around. I live in MA and serviced by Colonial Gas,
    if that makes any difference. Any thoughts would be greatly
    appreciated.
    
    
    Dennis
    

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Bruce [Moderator]

    Mr. Moderator, the note you are referring to only talks about propane
    gas versus electric dryers. Maybe I should've been a little more
    specific about which type of gas I have. I am talking about comparing
    natural gas to electric. 
    
    Dennis
    

To my knowledge, there is no such thing as a propane gas dryer.  There are only
gas dryers, which may be fitted with propane or natural gas nozzles.  I can't
think of any real reason why the comparison between electric and propane would
be significantly different from the comparison between electric and natural gas.
And even if there were a slight difference, you could bring it up in that note.

Paul
[Another moderator] :-)

    We live in Merrimack.  Our home does not have a dryer vent.  What is 
    is going to take to have one installed in the cellar, and can anyone
    recommend someone?
    
    Thanks....Sara

    Any local appliance dealer can do the job.  It is also not that
    hard a do-it-yourself job.  Assuming your dryer will be in the
    cellar, you have two DIY choices.  1) If you have those typical cellar
    windows (small square panes in a metal frame) you can remove one
    of the panes and replace it with a special baffle with a 4 inch
    hole in it.  A special exhaust hood with a 4 inch metal pipe is
    inserted through the baffle, and connected to the outlet on the
    dryer with flexible plastic ductwork.  2) If you can't route the
    exhaust through a window, you'll have to drill a 4-1/8 inch hole
    through the side of the house (through the band joist) and route
    the exhaust hood through that hole.  This might be a bit harder,
    but if you have an electric drill you can purchase a 4-1/8 inch
    hole saw.
    
    Sommerville Lumber, Builder's Square, and many hardware stores
    sell dryer exhaust kits with the exhaust hood and the flexible
    plastic ductwork.  The kit runs about $10-15.
    
    It will cost about $50 to have someone from an appliance store
    install the vent.

    For recommendations of contractors, see note 2000. For more information
    on venting a dryer see note 1039, 1638, 1836, 1111.9, 1111.104.
    
    Standard writelock message follows form feed.

This note has been temporarily write-locked pending approval of the author.

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already answered, or you may find a note where your question is an appropriate
continuation of the discussion.  These were found using the keyword directory
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the directory yourself.  Nearly all the people likely to respond use NEXT
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examining these notes, you wish to continue the discussion here, send mail.

Bruce [Moderator]

    As an alternative to a long dryer vent run, you can buy a plastic
    bucket that a short length of dryer vent hose connects to.  You fill
    the bucket with water which collects the lint.  It works effectively. 
    We've used it for years.  Just empty the bucket weekly.
    

I HAD THE SAME PROBLEM.  WHEN YOU TAKE THE DRYER APART YOU WILL NOTE ALOT
OF LINT ON THE INSIDE ON THE MOTOR, BRACES ETC.

THE FELT GASKET COSTS ABOUT $10.00 AND HIGH TEMP ADHESIVE.  THE GASKET I
GOT WAS ABOUT 4" TOO SHORT SO I HAD TO GET ANOTHER AND PATCH A PIECE IN.
THE DEALER I GOT THE GASKET FROM DIDN'T SEEM TO KNOW MUCH ABOUT IT - PART 
NUMBER SIZE ETC.

HOWEVER, MY WIFE SAYS SHE HAS NOTICED A DIFFERENCE IN THAT LINT IS NOW
COLLECTING  ON THE FILTER AND DRYING TIME IS REDUCED.   LOOKING FORWARD
TO SEEING MY NEXT ELECTRIC BILL.

BOB




                      <<< Note 4032.0 by HPSRAD::SALTZ >>>
                 -< Lint escaping to vent from Clothes Dryer >-

    I have a problem with my MAYTAG electric dryer. Lint keeps escaping
    through the filter and goes out the vent pipe. The filter used to trap
    the lint but no longer does. I've replace the filter screen with no
    effect. I've also replaced the screen and holder from another older 
    Maytag dryer that worked in the older one but not in the newer one.  
    
	Does anyone know where the lint is escaping from. I've taken the
    back of the dryer off and can only see on way for lint to get to the
    vent pipe. (via the filter). Any ideas what the problem is ? Thx.

    
    
    	Not wanting to start a new note and after reviewing all the other
    notes relating to my problem, I've decided to park my problem here.
    
    	I know it's been almost a year since the base note, but I have
    a similar problem with my Kennmore gas dryer as in .0.
    
    	There is a slight catch.  When my dryer is running (heat on), I get
    a burning smell in the tumbler.  This smell is not gas, at least it 
    doesn't smell like gas (this is natural gas and not bottled).  It is
    more of a burning smell, like something is burning.  Anyway, it makes 
    the cloths smell like burnt-something.
    
    	The only clue I have is that maybe I have a lint buildup and it is
    getting burnt up.  I removed the vent tube (flexible) and it has lint
    in it which I plan to remove.  I haven't had a chance to remove the
    back panel to see if lint is really packed in anywhere, but I'll try
    that tonight.
    
    	Does anyone have a clue as to what could possibly be causing this
    burning-type smell.  I've checked the joints and there are no leaks,
    but I haven't checked the dryer running without heat (maybe something
    in the drum motor is burning) which could be causing the problem.
    
    	Any suggestions before I call the Gas Co./Repair person?
    
    
    								bill..g.
    

	Totally off the subject. Thermostats...what do they look like?
I am guessing they are the pieces mounted on the back of the drum with 
wires connected at each end.


	Am I correct in assuming this. 

	One has a green/black combo ...another a red/yellow combo...


	leo

	I recently had one of the wires burn off the element thermostat
on my dryer. I reconnected it but not well and the wire came loose. I 
reconnected it and it seemed to to work (with an empty dryer) but as soon 
as my wife tried it with a full load...It ran for 3 min's and timed out 
as if it was done drying.


	Anyone have a guess as to what causes this???


	leo

    These are generally 3 phase, but a friend with a garage who bought one
    to wash his own rags bought a thingy with a 1/4 hp motor that made the
    single phase look like 3 phase, and it worked very well.  
    
    Let me tell you, these washers are downright violent!
    
    Carl
    

    ...just a word of thanks to all those who have responded to this note.
    
    My dryer gave up making heat this morning. Tumbled OK, but succeeded in
    only making my clothes dizzy, not dry. I opened it up, tested
    everything I could think of with a DVM and finally started thinking
    about the cost of a new dryer.
    
    Logged in from home, read this note. Reply .2 sent me back down stairs
    to see if I really had 220V. Nyet!
    
    One 79 cent fuse and 1/2 an hour later all was well.
    
    Edd

    Yes, but why did the fuse blow? It's worth making sure the inside
    of the dryer is free of lint, especially around the motor and
    around the heating coil, and that the vent is clear of lint as
    well. Assuming you didn't do this when initially researching the
    problem. 

Well, it taught you the hard way that if an electrical appliance has problems
the *first* thing to do is to check the power supply! 

If there aren't any other symptoms of problems I wouldn't worry about the 
blown fuse (assuming it is an old fuse). However, if you blow another fuse, 
the dryer might have a problem.

/Date

    No lint was found.
    
    The fuse might have blown while I was washing/drying/running AC and
    running a 1K watt (draw, not output!) amplifier. 
    
    ...and it was old. In fact, I never knew it was there! (30 amp
    cylinder-type in pull out module)
    
    All seems OK now...
    
    Edd

    I'm having a problem with our gas dryer.  When turned on the ceramic
    ignitor glows for about 10 sec. and then kicks off without the gas
    being ignited.  I've verified that gas is at least getting to the inlet of 
    thevalve.  The first time this happened I started playing with it
    by taking out the gas valve, blowing some dust off it, jiggling some
    wires, removing and replacing some screws, in short doing nothing.  When 
    I put the valve back on it worked fine.  This "repair" lasted for about a 
    week and now it's not working again.  About a month ago I replaced the 
    thermostat control to fix another problem.  
    
    	Anyone have any ideas on what the problem might be?  I was going to
    replace the gas valve but that's $80 and I don't want to do it unless
    I'm fairly certain it will work.
    
    Thanks,
    
    George

        Sounds like a problem my father had with his a few years ago. The
        gas valve is operated by a thermocouple for safety. The
        thermocouple was dead.

I'd like to move my electric dryer about six feet further from the electrical
service.  The best way to do this is to replace the (? Ga.) length of wire 
with a six-foot-longer one.

Is it acceptable to put a longer cord on instead?  I realize that since the
length of the cord will be pretty much doubled, its Gauge should be corres-
pondingly increased.  If this is taken into account, is there a problem with
doing it this way?

Erik
    

    
    This seems to be taken into account on the replacement cord.  The
    one that I bought was a bit beefier than the original.  Can't remember
    the brand, but it was not a standard Hotpoint part.  If it's a
    Hotpoint there's a chart on the inside, telling you the
    guage/limitations for cords.
    
    Regards,
    
    Colin
    
    

I am having a problem with my electric dryer that I am hoping some of you can
    help me with and it has uncovered a potential problem with my electricity.

I live in a condo that's the second and third floors of a restored Victorian
House.  The building was completely renovated during 1985 and I moved in during 
1986.  The building was completely rewired at the time and has full 100 amp ser-
vice with a 30 amp breaker on the dryer circuit.  The way it's set up is that my
downstairs neighbor and I have completely separate electricity.  I have a break-
er for the whole house in the basement, then my panel is in one of my second
floor bedrooms.  It has a breaker for the whole house in the panel as well as
the individual breakers for the rest of the circuits.

I have owned the dryer for 5 years and I use it, on average, for one load per
week.  The vent is clear and I have never had any problems with the dryer since
I've owned it.

About 2 months ago, I noticed a random problem that began happening only when
I ran my dryer.  For some unknown reason, it began to trip the electricity. 
Instead of tripping the breaker for the dryer or the breaker for the whole house
at the panel, it began tripping the breaker in the basement.

My first step was to replace the breaker for the dryer.  That didn't help.

I had an electrician out.  He checked the electricity from my panel to the dryer
and determined there was no trouble with the electricity between those two
points.  In other words, ample electricity was flowing to my panel and then from
there to the dryer.  That still didn't solve the problem.

Then, I had a dryer repairman out.  He found a worn pulley which he replaced and
checked the dryer over - said the rest of the dryer was fine.  The dryer went
through the rest of the cycle with no further problem.  It obviously wasn't fine
since it happened again Sunday afternoon.

The only commonality I see to the problems now is that it seems (though I have
not really proven it yet) to happen, when it happens, at certain points in the
timer cycle.  What I plan to do is begin drying at various points on the timer
cycle to see if I perhaps have a bad timer.  I have two other questions:

1.  Is there anything else I can troubleshoot with the dryer to see what might
be wrong with the dryer?  It's very frustrating to try to get repair people out
because the electrician blames the dryer, the appliance repairman blames the
electricity and I can't make the problem happen on demand.

2.  Is there something wrong with my electrical system that would cause the 
whole house breaker in the basement to trip, instead of either the dryer breaker
(keep in mind that this particular breaker has been replaced once) or the house
breaker at the panel?

I am not an electrician, don't have any tools for monitoring electrical flow
and have no expertise at fixing appliances.

Thanks,

John Hendry
    

    You say that you are in a two family dwelling, and the entire dwelling
    has only a 100 amp circuit ????? If so, I suspect your answer is right
    there.  With the load of your neighbours and youur own load, you
    could easily exceed the 100 amp main breaker rating.  I am surprised
    that such a configuration was actually allowed.  Both you and your
    downstairs neighbour should have totally separate 100 amp circuits
    fed by either two single 100 amp feeds, or a combined 200 amp feed.
    
    Stuart

    I wasn't completely clear.  We are both on separate 100 amp circuits.
    
    Besides, if this was the problem, it would have shown up 5 years ago,
    not now, I would think.
    
    John

    Ah !  Phew !  Had me worried for a while ...  It could have only just
    shown up if there was a change in lifestyle  of your neighbours.
    
    How about checking your own load ?  Turn everything off of sigificance
    and check your meter ... it should only just crawl around.  If it is
    whizzing round then you've got a high standing load from something
    else.
    
    Does your house breaker have GFI protection ?  Unlikely but possible.
    In which case a dryer grounding fault would definitely trip it.
    Unless the dryer breaker at 30 amps is faulty, I find it hard to
    believe that the 100 amp house breaker would go first if it is a
    problem with the dryer.
    
    If it is a dryer problem , then I would look for shorted heating coils
    typically from sagging and touching other parts of the coils.  Any
    other place and you'd likely start smelling burning!
    
    Stuart

Is the breaker in the basement the same rating as the one in the panel (both
100A)?

It might be possible the breaker in the basement is weak and trips too soon.
But check everything else out first before you have this checked/replaced.

-Mike

    I don't know if the main breaker in the basement is bad.  It is 100 amp
    and it doesn't seem to have a GFI switch nearby.
    
    I have checked my load.  The meter is crawling around and not speeding.
    
    No burning smell either, and I think the dryer repairman would have
    noticed it when he checked it out last week.
    
    John

      First let me be sure I understand this.

      Your  dryer  is  connected  to  a 30A breaker; this breaker is NOT
      tripping.

      There  is  a  100A  breaker  that  is a "main" breaker for all the
      circuits in the same box as the 30A breaker; this 100A breaker  is
      NOT tripping.

      There is another 100A breaker in the basement that IS tripping. 
      
      Is  the box with the dryer circuit (and the other circuits in that
      box) the ONLY thing that is connected to  this  breaker?   Nothing
      else, like a water heater or furnace or some basement lights, etc.

      If  "YES"  then it sounds very much to me like the 100A breaker in
      the basement needs to be replaced.

      If "NO" then there are two possibilities to consider: 
          
          (1)  When  you  run  the dryer the load from your upstairs box
          plus the other circuits really creates a load greater than 100
          Amps.  In this case, you need a heavier service.  
          
          (2)  It  might  still be that the 100A breaker in the basement
          needs to be replaced.

      It  might be that the cheapest thing to do is just to replace that
      100A breaker.  WARNING:  WHEN YOU DO THIS  THE  WHOLE,  UNSWITCHED
      POWER OF THE 100 AMP SERVICE IS EXPOSED.  If this doesn't make you
      uncomfortable, it should.  This is something to take seriously. If
      it  does  make  you  uncomfortable, definitely hire a professional
      electrician.  In other words, if you don't know what  your  doing,
      hire a professional.

    You have your understanding of the configuration correct, Charlie.
    
    As far as I can tell, there is nothing else running off the 30 amp
    breaker to the dryer other than the dryer itself.  When I shut off the
    dryer breaker, nothing else shuts off.  
    
    I will plan to have the 100 amp breaker in the basement replaced.  That
    is something I won't mess with myself, I will definitely get an
    electrician to do that.  The only reasons I even attempted to replace
    the breaker for the dryer were 1.  My neighbor is an electrical
    engineer and has the right tools to do the job (not to mention the
    expertise) and 2.  I could shut off the power at both ends to make sure
    no one could get hurt.
    
    Regarding the heavier load for the house, I would buy that if I'd been
    having the problems over the years I've lived there, but I haven't.  In
    fact, since the problem started happening I've tried to have as little
    as possible running while the dryer has been running and it still
    happens.  I have it isolated but I still don't know what the hell is
    causing the circuit to trip.
    
    Thanks,
    
    John

Basic troublshooting technique when it worked yesterday, and fails today, is to 
find out what changed.

What else runs from the box in the basement, other than the upstairs panel?

Has any of this load increased?

Bob

If the 100 amp basement breaker is the culprit, and both 100 amp breakers
are of the same model, you should be able to swap the two and see the problem
at the other panel.  It might be worth a try depending on the cost of a new
100 amp breaker (and the cost of the electrician's time).

    Nothing to my knowedge has changed on the load unless my neighbor is
    illegally tapping my electricity (and I don't think he'd do that, since
    he knows I'll come down to reset the panel whenever necessary and I
    have interrupted him at at least one, ahem, "inconvenient" time).
    
    John

    IF YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING ND ARE FAMILIAR WITH WORKING AROUND
    LIVE PANELS, then you could use a clamp on ammeter to measure the
    actual draw at the lines going into the 100 amp breaker. Since you have
    100 amp service, I will assume that the heat and stove are gas (cor-
    rect me if I'm wrong). In that case, the dryer is the heaviest draw in
    the condo. If the draw figures look ok (and this could also help
    identifying if there is a "tap" for power), then I'd probably go with
    the tripping 100 amp breaker or perhaps corrosion on its input wires or
    on the output connections on the bus bar causing it to heat up.
    
    Eric

    Oil heat, electric stove and oven.
    
    I'm having my brother (who's an electrician) out as soon as I can get
    him and I'm going to have him do the troubleshooting.  I'm not going to
    mess with it anymore.
    
    John

    
    I'm having a problem with my Kennore dryer (13 years old) that exactly
    matches the description in .28 -- won't restart after checking a load;
    after waiting a while, starts reluctantly ig I hold down the start
    button, motor sounds like it's straining under load to come up to
    speed.
    
    There's no rely here for .28. Anybody seen and fixed this problem? Is
    my motor going?
    
    BTW, is there some kind of speed switch in the motor that won't let the
    dryer operatre on its own until the motor is up to speed?

    
    It's probably the bearings on the drum and/or felt pads worn away. The
    motor is running cool enough when it's running. But when it stops the
    motor heats up and if the felt pads are worn away get hot and sticky
    making the inertia (when hot) even worse.
    

    I'd like to reopen this note.  I am in the process of buying a
    stackable washer/dryer.  My current house is all electric, would it make
    sense to buy a gas dryer and hook it to propane.  What I'm thinking is
    what if my next house is gas and I'm stuck with and expensive electric
    dryer. Would my $ return make it worth buying gas and running off of a
    small propane tank?  Any ideas on the cost?  

    If I lived in a totally electric house, I'd buy an electric dryer and
    not worry about where I might live next. The electric dryer can always
    be sold (admittedly at a loss), so thoughts of getting "stuck" seem 
    negligible...
    
    Edd

    And regardless of if your next house had gas or not, you would still be
    able to use your electric dryer, though you might have to run a 30 amp
    line to it.
    
    Eric

    
    It would also cost significant doallars to get a tank and line etc.
    Probably about the cost of another dryer.
    

    According to note .2 is was quite cheap unless I'm reading it wrong.

Whether it would be worth your while depends on the amount you use the
dryer (family size), the electric and propane rates in your area.

Electricity in general is rather expensive to use for heating purposes.
If you do get propane, you may want to consider getting a propane water heater
and stove if/when the current ones die.  You need a chimney for the water
heater.

If you have gas on your street, some towns don't allow propane.

-Mike

    
    Well .2 describes labor and did not talk about parts. Perhaps the
    company owns the tank. But you would think they would charge you rent
    on the tank. Something is missing in .2.
    

    
    My orginal reply was going to be something like .15 but I kept it
    short. Basically if you have enough equipment to run off the propane
    then the installation and running cost might be worth it. By the sounds
    of .2 maybe just a dryer would be worth it?
    

My propane company just charges for the propane, no tank rental charges
are added.  It's possible that they have different rates depending whether
they own the tank.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

    RE.15

    	You no longer need a chimney for a water heater they vent just like 
    a gas dryer.  They did mine when I switched over to propane and it
    works fine not to mention it's a hell of a lot cheaper than a chimney.

    RE:.18

    	My propane company doesn't charge rental on the tank either, they
    just charge for the propane used.

    Joe

    I made some calls and talked to propane dealers below is a breakdown:
    
    	$35.00 refundable deposit on the tank
    	$50.99 to fill 100lb tank
    	$68.45 for installation with up to 25 feet of copper tubing
    	$15.00 approximately for the gas dry conversion kit
    	and then periodic stops to top off the tank
    
    However I discovered that my particular house has a gas main already in
    place.  Seems a neighbor a few or many years past had a main run in
    front of their house (sounds expensive to me).  So I am going to hook 
    into to it at no cost to me.  I will then connect my dryer from there. 
    Thanks for the info, Rob.

Your dryer plug is for two-phase 240V.  There's 120V potential between
each of the "hot" phases and neutral, and 240V between the two hot phases.
There's usually no separate ground.  I don't know how it works in the UK.

			Steve

If you read all the way to the end, you'll see that the base noter already
has a step-down transformer.

Thanks, you're right. Sorry about that.

However I know that dedicating a transformer to a single appliance
isn't always one's preferred option. Re-wiring would be better, if possible.

Regarding the safety aspects of US 240V appliance hookup, yes, I
believe you're right. If the neutral line should open, the appliance
chassis would be at some voltage between 120 and 240. This couldn't
happen with European wiring. But hey, it's a small price to pay to live
in the greatest country in the world.

(that was sarcasm, folks)

	Another thing you might want to check before connecting this to the 
	power is to see if the dryer will run on a 50 Hz supply. The US standard
	is 60 Hz and if it is made to use only this power then if you try and 
	run the motor at 50 Hz then most of them tend to over heat and self 
	distruct.. The heater part of the dryer won't have a problem as its
 	just a big resistor that uses electrical energy to convert to heat.

	You will probably need to  a. replace motor or b. replace dryer.

	Geoff 

    Dryers and Stoves always bewildered me. All other appliances take
    special care to keep ground and neutral separate. Yet dryers and Stoves
    cheat. They really should be 4 wire Line line Neutral and Ground. If
    only they used 220v motors then they could use just have Line Line ground.
    But they don't many people have gone through the experience of having the
    dryer tumble with no heat because they lost one line. For some strange
    reason if you have a dryer in a mobile home you do need to wire it with
    a 4 wire (line line Neutral and Ground) and a jumper is removed from
    fram to neutral.
    
    Most dryers are designed to run on 120v also (some areas and houses
    still don't have two phase). Usually the back panel tells you how but I
    THINK all you do is connect your hot 120v lead to both Lines. The dryer
    will work but take forever (2-3 hrs instead of 45mins) to dry.
    

    You also want to check whether the 240V circuit you want to connect
    your dryer to can supply enough current for your power-hungry American
    beast. Not sure how it is in the U.K., but on the European continent
    most branch circuits are 10A or 16A. In Europe appliances that need a
    lot of power usually run from three-phase 380V (e.g. stoves). Most
    European dryers are designed to run from 16A branch circuits. They
    don't run as hot as American dryers.
    
    BTW, European washers and dryers are FAR better than their American 
    counterparts! That is because in European machines agitation is better
    and cycles are longer, so the laundry gets properly cleaned in the washer 
    and doesn't get burned in the dryer. So do yourself a favor, and buy 
    European machines! You will be pleasantly surprised how much cleaner 
    your clothes get, and how much longer they last!
    
    And when it's time to move back to the U.S., by all means ship them!
    Most European washers and dryers run from U.S. 240V without problems;
    just their cycles are a bit shorter because of the 60Hz here in the
    U.S. I did this a year ago when I relocated to the U.S. from Europe, 
    and my (top German brand) washer and dryer both are very happy h
    
    /Date

    Just for the record:
    
    American 240V is 240V SINGLE phase (not 2-phase), with a center-tap
    neutral to give 120V to either "hot" lead.  
    
    

    I don't know much about technicalities, but as a Brit in the U.S., I
    know that I cannot use any of my U.K. applicances here, nor the other
    way around - probably easier to purchase new drier (U.K. does have some
    pretty good ones, some I believe are even American made!)

    OK ... let's straighten out some ideas here ...
    
    IF the dryer has a heater wired for 240 V then NEITHER end should be
    connected to the frame.
    
    If the dryer motor is wired for 120V it is connected from Hot(1) to
    Neutral (which MAY be strapped to frame as ground but really shouldn't
    be)
    
    ------------------------------------------------------------------
    In N. America, the domestic power is described variously, but it is
    just about always in the form  (60Hz)
    
    	   <----240V--->
           <120V> <120V>
          |      |      |
          |      |      |
         L1      N      L2
    
    Where L1 and L2 are Hot, Live or Line
          N is neutral and should be grounded at the service panel or
               local distribution transformer
    
    Every standard plug should be wired with L1 or L2 and N and Ground
    and rated for 15 Amps (1.6 Kw approx)
    
    Dryers and Stoves are wired usually with L1, L2 and N and modern
    installations with Ground. Older installations are direct wired,
    modern ones use a 4 prong special plug.
    
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------
    In England, domestic power is distributed as 240V 50Hz
    
          <240V>
         |      |
         |      |
         N      L
    
    Neutral is strapped again to ground at either the Service Panel (Fuse
    Box) or the local transformer.
    
    Every standard plug is wired with Live, Neutral and Ground.
    
    Every standard plug is fused and have maximum ratings of 13 A (3KW)
    
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    Now, the dryer will exceed plug ratings in the UK so, it must be wired
    into a Stove/Dryer switch panel which will be rated at 30A.  The switch
    panel is wired back to the fuse panel with what used to be called
    7/036 wire (prior to metrication ... I cannot remember the new standard
    size).  The dryer will be wired into the terminals in the switch box.
    
    Motors and transformers designed for 50Hz operation have slightly more
    metal in them than 60Hz motors, so in practical terms this means that
    you shouldn't stuff the dryer absolutely full of clothes ... generally
    about 20% less would be a good rule of thumb and the motor should have
    no problems with that.  Any more load and it will not maintain speed
    due to losses.
    
    Now as to wiring the dryer, what must be done is that any connections
    between frame and any of the wiring must be removed.  (Note that there
    may be a green wire between various frame members and between the motor
    chassis and frame.  Leave these.)
    
    The end common between the Motor and the Heater Element should be
    connected to Neutral.  Also connected to neutral will be the 0V tap 
    of the 240/120V Autotransformer.
    
    The 120V connection to the motor should be connected to the 120V tap
    of the autotransformer
    
    The other end of the 240V connection to the Heater should be connected
    to the Live Supply, along with the 240V tap of the Autotransformer.
    
    Note that the Autotransformer MUST be rated to carry the motor load ...
    you CANNOT use one of the small transformers used for vacation travel
    appliances ... these simply are NOT rated high enough.
    
    Note that the timings on the timer will be about 20% longer than before
    so you will need to adjust drying times appropriately.
    
    Before you try this though, try to make contact with a appliance
    service repairman or electrician who UNDERSTANDS what you are trying 
    to do.  The majority will not.  They can check the dryer wiring and
    do it for you so you won't electrocute yourself!
    
    
    Stuart

The US National Electrical Code specifically allows clothes dryers and stoves
to have the neutral grounded to the frame and no separate ground wire for
240V.

			Steve

    Re .11:
    
    WITH some specific requirements, of course!  (Gauge of wire,
    main panels and NOT subpanels, etc.)

    
    Restructed to residential homes, also.
    
    Commerial and Mobilbe homes are different.
    

    Dryer problem described in .50 is fixed.  My brother (who's a licensed
    electrician) came out yesterday.  I described the problem and he went
    right to my main breaker in the basement.  He shut off the power,
    opened the box, looked at it for a couple of minutes, went outside,
    pulled the meter out of its socket, came back inside, disconnected the
    main breaker, stripped and cleaned the wires and put everything all
    back together.  He said that with aluminum wires (which these are) they
    can loosen up over time and that's what happened to mine.  It took him
    all of about 20 minutes to do his thing and he didn't charge me
    anything for doing it.  I suppose I'll buy an extra present or two for
    his new baby when it arrives.
    
    Now if I have a further problem, I know it's in the dryer, because I'm
    confident there's no more problem with the electricity itself.  I just
    have to convince the appliance repair people of that.
    
    John

    
    Apart from motor wiring, the heating element will probably run at very
    low efficiency and take hours to dry clothes.  Unless you have a very
    beefy transformer.
    
    Check local Electricity Board codes as well!  Equipment connected to
    the mains must (by law) be rated & plated according to BSI standards.
    Another thing you should consider is that if this causes a fire, you
    *might* negate your fire insurance policy.
    
    I can understand you wanting the decent capacity of a US dryer
    rather than the dolls-house models sold in Europe! But most of
    us relocatees have been through this exercise, and it isn't
    worth it in the end.
    
    Regards,
    
    Colin
    
    
    
    

    Re: 48
    
    Well, I haven't yet replaced my dryer's cord with a longer (and
    heavier) one.  I've decided instead to do it right and replace 
    the cable to the 220V outlet with a longer run.
    
    The run is now about 20 feet long but I don't know what gauge 
    it is.  Assuming 30 Amperes at 240 Volts, what gauge do I need
    to run, say, 30 feet?
    
    Thanks \ Erik

10 guage will do it for a 30A breaker.

    Pardon ?
    
    The heating elements in most dryers are 240 V and the supply is 240 V
    ... what is the problem ?  Only the motor and timer runs off 120 V.
    
    The timer will run about 17% slower, so setting the dial for 60 minutes
    will make the drier run for about 70 minutes.  The drum will rotate
    about 17% slower ... no big deal.
    
    What is connected to the mains by law must meet BSI ... yes, what is
    connected *directly* to the mains.  What goes on the other side of an
    *fused* outlet connector box, or *fused* wire-in connector to a ring main,
    or *fused* plug is a different matter.  To be *SOLD* in the UK, such 
    appliances must meet BSI, but if you make for yourself, buy from abroad, 
    or bring from abroad, the onus is on you to ensure that such things are
    electrically safe.  If the dryer causes a fire or accident, you may
    have to show that it was electrically safe but that's all ... you have
    not broken any laws.
    
    Britain is *amazingly* free when it comes to this kind of thing.  You
    can do your own gas plumbing, plumbing, electrical and so on.  If, for
    example, you do your own electrical work without an inspection, then
    the only problem is really insurance coverage in the event of an
    electrical malfunction.
    
    Stuart

Many motors designed for 60Hz will overheat on 50Hz current.  I don't
recommend trying this.

			Steve

I agree about 60Hz motors on 50Hz.

You ought to be able to purchase a 240v 50Hz motor that will fit
mechanically.  You'll have to get a pulley, and probably a different belt.
You can compensate for the change in rotation speed via the pulley size.
You'll probably have to kludge in some sort of motor mount.  In other words,
be clever.

Then the only thing you have to worry about is a tiny transformer for the
controls, assuming that you have a mechanical timer and not an electronic
(digital) one.

    re .16 & .17
    
    If the motors are running at full rated load, for the motor's specified
    duty cycle, then, yes I agree you'll overheat the motor.
    
    But, generally, a dryer motor will be over rated for short duty cycles,
    and for continuous run, as long as the motor load is at least about 25% 
    below maximum (and I 've talked about this earlier), then there
    shouldn't be a problem.  Dryer motors do tend to have a generous rating
    because the chance for overloading is high ... stufing the drum FULL of
    extra wet clothes.  So using good dryer practices, like extracting as
    much water out in the spin as possible, and keeping the drum load down
    a bit from what they would in N. America, I cannot see any problem.
    
    Most commercial motors these days while plated for 60Hz are actually
    designed for 50/60 Hz and thus will run with a wider overload margin
    when run at 60Hz.
    
    Re .18
    
    One thing you might want to consider, is to get one of the small
    "Spinners" available in England and Europe ... often called a spin
    drier.  Your washer is not going to spin as fast, and therefore will
    likely not get quite as much water out.  These little spin driers
    are quite cheap ... and regularly available secondhand through ads
    in the papers ... and do a good job and will give your drier far less
    work to do ... saving on electricity and on wear and tear on the
    drier ... which isn't a bad thing, since if it breaks, getting it
    repaired will be the ultimate challenge!
    
    Stuart

    
    Some one gave me a "working dryer" some time ago and told me it
    got hot so out it went.  I just go around to checking it out.  Its
    a GE Mdl V-12 electric dryer.   Seems the bushing (looks something like
    bakelite) gave and the spindle have been working it way thru the
    bushing housing.   Other then needing a good de-linting, it looks ok.
    Anybody have any parts or can tell me where is a good place to look?
    
    Thanks
    JD

    This is the spindle that supports the back end of the dryer drum?
    Ours had the same problem.  I had no trouble locating a replacement
    bushing at an applicance store.  The trouble was, it came as part
    of a "kit" that included a whole bunch of stuff I didn't need so I
    made my own (I've got a metal lathe).  In retrospect, if it's just 
    an oilite or bronze bushing, you can get those at Bearing Specialty in 
    Worcester for (probably) less than a dollar.

    
    Its $28 for he kit.  The problem is the bushing is gone.  The bushing
    plate has a slot worn in it from the spindle.  and the spindle also
    is worn.  So To save any future problems, its best if I replace every
    thing.  I was hoping someone had a good one out back somewhere.....
    
    Thanks
    JD

    I think you could probably get by with just putting in a new
    bushing, dispite the wear...I guess it depends on how cheap you
    happen to be feeling!

    The bushing itself is quite cheap (about $5 at our local U-Fix-It in
    Dallas). Except for the fact that you have to remove the drum to in-
    stall it, its not too bad a job. Actually it comes apart fairly easily.
    On our 8 year old GE dryer, the steps were:
    
    1)Remove the bottom cover on the back, so you can release the belt from
      the idler.
    2)Remove 4 screws from the front edge of the top cover. This will allow
      the top to be pivoted upward.
    3)Remove 4 bolts from the front cover (2 on each side). The upper 2 are 
      easy to see, but the bottom two are at the bottom of the front
      cover.
    4)On the back, remove the small square cover that hides the back of the
      drum spindle. Remove the C (or is it E) clip from the shaft. There
      will probably be a number of washers on the shaft also. Keep track of 
      them.
    5)The drum can now be slid out the front. The bushing, if any of it is
      left, would still be in the retainer plate in the dryer. A number of
      self tapping bolts hold the plate into the dryer. Remove them and the
      plate drops off (or rather drops behind part of the frame, so hold
      onto it when the last bolt comes out).
    6)Press the new bushing into the retainer plate. Make sure you read the
      instructions, because the one I got was an ECO and did nut reuse all
      the washers.
    7)Reassemble in reverse order.
    
    Eric
    

    
    RE:steve
    
    I dont know how it kept turning.  Its so warn that there is an inch
    slot cut in the back of the bushing housing.  The drum was riding on
    the bottom of the pan for the heating coils.  Thus leaving about
    a 3/16 thickness on the 1/2" shaft the drum is attached to.  I just
    dont want it to snap with a full load!
    
    Re:
    I took it apart the other night.  Real simple.  Thanks
    
    JD
    

    re: .73
    
    Oh...yours was ***REALLY*** worn!  Ours didn't get anywhere near that 
    bad.  Yes, I'd say you need the whole kit!

I'm afraid I may have to provide company for the lonely Maytag repairman.
The gas dryer will ignite for about a minute or two and then the flame goes out.
There is no re-heating of the glow plug that starts the flame after that.  If I
immediately shut the unit off and turn it on again, the glow plug doesn't heat
and of course, no flame. If I wait 10 or 15 minutes, and then turn it on again,
the plug glows, flame ignites and we get another 2 minute burn.  Of course, the
whole time the dryer is turned on, the drum is merrily spinning away. 

So, I've got a few options if I understand the previous replies.  It could be
the thermowhatever or the other thingie.  That's nice, but I don't know what
those things look like or how to tell if they're broken.  Can anybody enlighten
me?  

Wasting $30 and stalling the purchase a new washingmachine two years ago for
at least a month was a lot of fun and reasonably satisfying, but my wife will
not fall for that trick a second time.  In all fairness, I think I'll need to
act like I understand the instructions for troubleshooting this time.

Has anyone got a phone number for Maytag.  Are they as cheerful as the Westing-
house people, or is their loneliness exacerbated by not having a phone??

Thanks
Bob

    re: thermothingie...
    
    Thermocouple. It looks like a probe that should be sitting right IN
    the flame. If it gets too cool (like because the flame went out) it
    kills the gas supply.
    
    Edd

To be more explicit, a thermocouple is a metal cylinder about 1/4" in diameter.
There's a bare wire attached to it axially.  As .-1 says, it's positioned in
the flame.

    
    
    I had the same problem a week ago with my furnace, and due to the
    advice in this note bought a thermocouple and sent the wife down to fix
    it. Installed easy, and fixed the problem!
    
    A thermocouple is a long copper pipe with a tube at the end. They are
    all standard, you need only know the length ,eg 18" of the tube. Then
    you can buy a generic replacement for $4.
    
    Simon

Thanks for the responses.  I'm going to take the afternoon off and tackle this
project today.  With one in diapers and another coming any day now, I'd like
this working again.

Is there anyway to determine its bad or is it the only likely candidate and
I should just replace it?  Does the fact that I do get flame mean the 
thermocouple is the only thing that could be wrong?  

Q2:  is the only way to replace it by working through the little 6" square 
trap door in front of the dryer or do the outer panels come off?

    First locate the thermocouple and start the dryer. Make sure the tip is
    *solidly* sitting in the flame. Even a good thermocouple won't work
    if it doesn't heat up enough. You *may* simply have a slightly clogged
    jet, resulting in a flame too small to heat the TC peoperly.
    
    ...in any case, they aren't expensive.
    
    Edd

    BTW - Since you have a pilotless ignition system I'd suspect there may
    be some type of temporary "override" algorhythm that allows the dryer
    to start and operate at least long enough for the thermocouple to
    heat up...
    
    All my gas appliances have pilot lights so I'm not sure on this one.
    If I'm on the right track, it would explain why your dryer works in
    the beginning, but then fails...
    
    Edd

Thanks for fast replies.

re: .22   While the flame lasts there is plenty of it.  The is an inch long tube
that glows very red and ignites the flame.  I get solid flame and then it shuts
off.  I'll look today and see where the thermocouple is and what it looks like.
I was wondering if I can do anything with a meter to see if its functional or
not or jumper around it to see if everything works without it and then I'll
know for sure and make only one trip to the parts man.

    The thermocouple, as described previously, will be a longish, thin tube
    with one end in the flame and the other at the gas regulator.
    
    I've got one sitting in my cellar. I can test it if you like and post
    the results...
    
    Edd

    If it is a pilotless ignition system there may be an optical
    sensor (photocell or such) which senses the presence/absence
    of a flame after the ignitor is energized.  When the gas valve
    is opened, if the sensor does not detect a flame within a VERY
    short time (seconds), the gas valve will be closed.  If the
    sensor (or associated wiring/electronics) is defective you'd
    see this type of failure.

Well, thank you all for your input.  I had fun and learned a few things.  I
called a number of parts dealers and service desks and pieced together a
number of things to look at.  I finally reached a repairman last night who 
listened to what I had learned and when he heard my description of
the problem told me what he thought the problem was.  When I priced what parts
cost I decided I was better off hiring this man than experimenting with new
parts.  

My dryer has an electric ignition.  There is a radiant sensor to determine
if the igniter is glowing and a hi-limit thermostat to detect flame.  There
is also a low temp cycle thermostat on the exhaust which tells the dryer
the clothes are dry and shuts it down.  Since each of these things costs 
between $25 and $30 it just wasn't cost effective to experiment when the
house call cost $30.  

So Ron, the Nashua based Appliance Doctor came out this morning and took 
oh, maybe 3 seconds to solve the problem.  It was in fact the coils which
operate the gas valve which is what he told me he thought it was last night.
That's because we were getting an initial ignition but wouldn't sustain it
even when I jumpered out the hi limit thermostat.

The interesting piece of info he told me was that even had I bought the coils
myself and installed them, I wouldn't have known that I'd solved the problem
because I was doing all my testing with the front panel off.  With the panel
off, the flame doesn't get enough draft to clear the hi-limit Thermostat and
the gas would shut off. 

The bad news is that the coils cost $40.

                                                           
    
       I just went to the local plumbing supply house to purchase the
    pieces I need to hook up my gas stove ( from back of stove to the flexible
    line coming out of the floor).  I was given the appropriate brass
    fittings, and a section of 1/2" flexible copper tubing. My question is:
    Is this type of tubing appropriate for using with Natural Gas? I have
    been getting conflicting viewpoints, so I thought I would throw the
    question in here. The stove hookup is in Nashua, but I purchased the
    supplies in Mass.
    
                             Any info would be appreciated.
                                      

    I can't answer your question but I *have* seen flex-pipe used on a
    natural gas installation in Nashua.
    
    ...there are two types of flexible tubing I'm aware of. One type looks
    like regular copper tubing, very smooth, but it bends easily. Another
    type looks not unlike a vacuum cleaner hose, lots of concentric rings
    along the length. The second type was what I saw used.
    
    I've no idea what Nashua code is...
    
    Edd

Propane usually uses the flexible copper tubing, but I've never seen such
used for natural gas.  I suspect it's against code but don't know why if it
is.  Natural gas uses a thicker flexible steel thing (as .-1 describes) for
short didtances else it uses black iron pipe.

-Mike

    
    
       This is the "smooth" copper tubing, and will require the ends to be
    "flared".
    
    

    
     I have the flexible "ringed" pipe coming up from the floor. It was
    installed when the house was built. This hose is too short ( by about
    6") to be connected to the back of the stove ( plus the ends are not
    compatible), so thats why I needed a  short (1') pipe to make the
    connection (and the transition from the 3/4" fitting on the pipe to the
    5/8" fitting on the stove . It seems like it will work, but I am worried
    about it potentially cracking/crimping when the stove is pushed in
    or pulled out. 

    I have some of the smooth copper tubing running to my water heater,
    natural gas, in Hudson, NH. A local plumver has seen it and when I
    said that I was surprised to see it used, he stated that in NH regular
    copper tubing was legal. (I'm not sure about all towns, but he did
    say NH)

I believe it's legal in Nashua, but my plumber said it wasn't a good idea.
You can use the corrugated steel or mesh-enclosed pipes which have integral
connectors, or black iron pipe for fixed runs.  I would not be comfortable
about having a flared copper fitting for gas.

			Steve

    
       The flared ends concern me too. The problem with the black Iron is
    that it doesn't seem to come in a size to fit the fitting on back of
    the stove ( 5/8" ). The fitting is brass, and has a tapered end to
    accept tapered tubing.
     
       I think I will take a trip to Maki's and see what they reccommend.
    
       BTW, does anyone know the approximate cost of having a
    "professional" hook it up? If it isn't rediculous, ( which it probably
    is) , it might be worth it.

    Why not just buy a new longer flexible extension? Code here in Colorado
    does not allow flared fittings on movable appliances like a stove
    flared is ok on fixed appliances like a waterheater.
    
    Myself I'd buy a longer extension and feel safer when I switch
    on the light.
    
    -j

>>       BTW, does anyone know the approximate cost of having a
>>    "professional" hook it up? If it isn't rediculous, ( which it probably
>>    is) , it might be worth it.

I'd guess about $50.

I got a quote for having a 'T' put in a gas line with a new iron straight
line to go outdoors with it ending in a quick dis-connect.  It was about
$100.  I wanted to see how much it would cost to hook my outdoor gas grill
to our house propane tank instead of always refilling the small tanks for
the outside.  The plumber suggested I go to a restaurant supplier ( one
in Manchester, NH ) and get a quick dis-connect flexible tubing and hook
that to the new outdoor shutoff.

Garry

    I just had a gas dryer installed in Nashua. The plumber ran black pipe
    to the back of the dryer and the ringed, flexible piece to connect to
    the dryer.  
    
    In your case, either extend the black pipe (easy and cheap, just make
    sure you use the appropriate "goop" at the fittings) and use your
    existing flexible connection or purchase a new one.
    
    Dave

    
     This sounds like a great idea. I will check out this possibility when
    I get home tonight ( never thought of extending the black pipe! )
    
    

I strongly suggest having a plumber do it (I use Wells Plumbing in Nashua).
It's NOT expensive and is well worth the peace of mind.  

			Steve

    
         I called up Wells, and they quoted $36/hr plus parts. He said it
    typically comes out to less than $50 where the flex tube is already
    installed.
    
                          For that price, I'll probably have it done 
                              
    
                                      

    I've been thinking about the economics of a Nat. Gas grill also.
    I see the Wells Plumbling quote of $36/hour for labor.... so...
    
    About how much would it cost for a run of black pipe of about 20-30ft?
    I need enough to get from the furnace to exit just above the sill and
    come out on the back deck.  I would probably need another regulator
    too? (at least a shutoff valve)
    
    (the quick connect fitting and hose comes with the grill in question)
    
    I have this feeling that propane is still cheaper.
    
    	Dave.

    Yea, but you should never run out of gas! ;-)
    
    			Russ

    I'm pretty sure you also need a different burner element in your grill
    if you switch from propane to natural gas.

Yes, you need to get a different regulator and orifice for natural gas with
a propane grill.

However, I had Wells run a gas line about 40-50 feet with taps for a
cooktop and a clothes drier, and it ran around $125, which I thought was
quite reasonable for the amount of work.

I do an awful lot around the house myself, but when it comes to running
gas lines, I call the pros.  (I do feel capable of hooking up a flexible
connector to an existing tap.)

BTW, you'll need a shutoff for any tap you have installed (a plumber will
do it, but you might not if you did it yourself.)   

			Steve

    I guess I didn't make this obvious enough,  the grill in question is 
    being sold explicitly for natural gas hookup.  That's why it comes with
    the hose and fitting (both ends).  ... so I assume that the burners
    et.al are of already of the correct size.
    
    The issue is the cost tradeoff of fixed plumbing installation +
    operating costs versus the cost of propane tanks & the hassle of 
    obtaining them.
     
    Also knowing the cost of installation helps me understand the if the
    price of the grill is good enough.  The propane grill market has
    more competiion and is easier to comparison shop.
    
    	Dave.

    
    
        Now that I have the plumber scheduled to come out and hook up my
    Gas stove, I thought of another question regarding gas stoves. Do they
    require venting outside ( like a gas water heater, boiler, or dryer?)
        I have only had electric stoves up to this point, and the range
    hood currently installed does not vent the air to the outside of the
    house.
        The gas stove was free, but if I need the external ventilation, I
    will have to cancel the plumber, and seriously thinking about reverting
    back to electric ( or building the proper vent )

    re:-1  Not that I know of.  I had gas up until 3 years ago and never had
    a range hood.
    
    Chris D.

    I've always had gas ranges and as far as I know the only time they need
    to be vented is if it also has a heater.
    
    Marie

    
       Thanks, thats what I kind of thought, but I just wanted to make sure
    before the plumber showed up!

    No venting *needed*, but, I added an external vent over my stove.
    The external venting made a BIG BIG difference when the weather gets
    warm, our I'm experimenting with cooking!
    
    Marc H.

A gas oven doesn't need external venting.  Some gas cooktops do.

			Steve

    
      Well, to end this saga, Wells plumbing came in today, and got the
    gas stove hooked up. The original estimate was about $50, but when he
    arrived, he found that the flexible (plastic covered) pipe installed
    when the house was new ( 8 years ago )was out of code, and running through
    the floor ( which was also against code). He ended up having to do some
    cutting of the wall and floor, then he extended the black iron pipe from
    the basement through the kitchen floor (not an easy task due to the
    double floor joist he had to work around). Then he hooked up a metal
    flexible hose to the black iron pipe, added some fittings to the back
    of the stove, and hooked it all up.
    
         Total damage was:
    
                     1 1/2 hours labor   $54
                     Parts               $50 ( $35 for the 3' flex hose)
    
                                 Total  $104
    
    
         The $104 was a little tough to take, but I was pleased with the
    service, and at least I know its been done right.
     
         Unfortunately, I now have two more problems to contend with.
    First, because of the way he had to run the pipe, I can only push the
    stove back to within 4" off the wall, and second, when we tried the
    oven, it doesn't work! The pilot is lit, but when you turn the knob,
    the flame aound the pilot just gets a little bigger, but the burner
    itself doesn't light.
        I can probably take care of the 4" clearance problem with some
    creative carpentry, but does anyone have any suggestions regarding
    the oven? The stove pilots/burners seem to work fine.
    
                                                             Dan
    
    

    
       I don't have a manual, but I will try leaving it on for a minute or
    so next time to asee what happens.
       I talked to a friend at lunch who is a plumber, and he said it was
    probably the sensor that detects the increase in heat from the pilot
    (as the flame gets bigger ) and then opens the valve for the gas to enter.
    He didn't mention anything about a time delay, but I'll check it out anyway.
    
                                                           Dan

    That "sensor" is the thermocouple.
    
    But try turning the stove on for a minute or so. The TC could be bad,
    or it could be just positioned in the pilot flame incorrectly. I tested
    mine by holding a candle under the TC, with the TC right in the candle 
    flame...
    
    Edd

    
    
       Tried leaving the oven on for a minute, and VOILA, it lit!. It seems
    to take about 60-70 seconds to kick in.
       However, when it is heating up, it kicks in and out several times
    until it reaches the pre-set tempurature. I put a thermostat in the
    oven, and watched. It cycled maybe 6-10 times, and heated up to 350
    degrees in about 12-14 minutes. While it was heating up, there is a
    slight gas smell ( probably from it cycling on and off ), but once it
    reaches tempurature, the smell goes away, and it seems to stay on. I
    am also finding the oven is very good at heating up the kitchen! It is
    noticibly warmer in the kitchen than when we had aa electric oven.
    
        Question: Is the cycling normal during warm up, or is this sign of
                  a problem?
                                                              

    Sounds like my gas oven.
    
    Marc H.

    Yeah, mine too.
    
    I suspect what happens is there's a bit of thermal mass that takes
    awhile to heat. When the burner is on, the inside temp rises quickly,
    the thermostat cuts the flame, the thermal mass drops the temp, the
    thermostat restarts the flame, goto loop...
    
    When the thermal mass finally approaches operating temp, things slow
    down...
    
    Edd

    
    My gas oven is 17 years old, has always taken 45-60 seconds to light
    and cycles on and off 6 or so times after lit for the next minuite or
    so.
                                    Bill 

    
    Thanks for the replies. Sounds like a just have a "normal" gas oven,
    and will have to get used to the differences from an electric oven.
    

    re.49
    Whoa $35.00 for the flex pipe?!?!? I dropped $6.95 on a 6 footer a	
    little over a month ago sounds like he gave himself a tip.
    
    -j
    

    
       You are right, $35 sounds a little expensive, although this appears to
    be of high quality, and I can't imagine it would be less than $15-$20 if
    I bought it myself.
       Just for kicks, I will check the price at the local plumbing supply
    store.
    
                                                        Dan
       

    Can someone clarify whether or not the laws in Mass have changed for
    flexible gas lines?  We have been notified our gas meter requires
    replacement and the inspection/relighting thing needs to be done.  We
    have two appliances that have been installed with flexible gas lines
    and I do not wish to be fined/evicted whatever as stated in .4.  BTW I
    bought all of the fixtures in a Mass hardware store to do the dryer
    installation.  Our gas oven was intalled that way when we moved in. 
    Thanks for any replies.
    
    Brian

A relative just recently had a gas dryer installed by a plumbing contractor in 
her house in Billerica.  The contractor used flexible pipe.

Dave

re .61:

The fact that an item is sold in a Massachusetts hardware store doesn't mean
that it's legal to use it in Massachusetts.

    Yeah, I'm aware that hardware stores sell all sorts of stuff that we
    are not supposed to be playing with without a license.  There was
    mention in a previous reply that the laws may have changed and I was
    wondering if in fact that was true.  If the laws have changed, I will
    rest easier.  If they haven't, then another course of action will have
    to be taken.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Brian

I have a problem with an old GE electric dryer. It has
always intermittently blown one fuse, however, it now blows 
that same fuse after 20-30 minutes into the drying cycle.

I have checked the heater element with a continuity tester
and there doesn't seem to be any leakage between the heater
element and the heater element housing and there is continuity
for the heater element itself.

Now, when I test for continuity between the heater element
and the heater element housing, with all wires attached, I
find a resistence of 4000 ohm between the heater element and
the heater element housing. I haven't found any worn wires and
am wondering if any leakage is acceptable.

The fuse that blows is always the same one. There is a separate
fuse box, with two 30amp fuses, for the dryer. Based on note
1956.7 or(.10,.15) I think I need to replace the box as the
fuse holder for that 30amp fuse is a little loose and a little
brown from all of the blown fuses. It is also quite hot and one
of those previous notes indicates that it could be that hot because
it is just bad. Is there anything else, on the dryer, side that
could be causing this.

    I forgot to mention in .75 that I use to be able to
    prevent a blown fuse by periodically tightening it. 
    Every 10 dryer loads or so, I would tighten it and
    most of the time it would be little loose. (30amp
    glass fuse).

    I can't give you any troubleshooting help, but you can call the General
    Electric Answer Center, 800-626-2000 and ask to talk to a Product
    Specialist.  They will help you, no charge.
    
    I recently visited this center as part of a benchmarking project
    and I was duly impressed.  They will help with problems for
    G.E. appliances going back to the 1940's.

    I did replace the fuse box for the dryer and all now works fine.
    Seems that the fuse holder sleve in the fuse box would not hold
    the fuse tighly and the insulator pad was burned. Could probably
    have just replaced the fuse holder sleve.
    
    Unknown why the above ended up damaged. My guess is that over
    the years the blown fuses weaken this part. I did find, in
    the dryer, where the heater element was slightly bent and
    very close to one of the metal brackets holding it in. I suspect
    that as everything heated up, the heater element touched the
    side and caused a short. 
    
    I did find a resistor tied into the dryer's electrical distribution
    bus that,when disconnected, removed the continuity between the
    heater element and the heater element casing. Looks like it is
    supposed to be there.
    
    Oh, it also turned out that the fuse was getting very hot
    in the first minute of operation. It was not blown, but cooked
    and discolored. It seems that the part of the fuse that is 
    supposed to blow, the thin metal strip, would not and that 
    after a while the fuse cooked itself enough to case a failure.
    
    Thanks for the number, I will probably need it to find a
    replacement heater element when the time comes.

    We just moved back to the in-laws which is electric dryer and stove.
    
    My mother-in-law almost went thru the roof when she got her last months
    bill from Edison, almost double from the month before.
    
    Would a relatively large electric dryer (30 amp service) add an easy $40 
    to the bill if used 3 times aweek? Doesn't seem right!
    I compared the dryer, stove and a 70 watt bulb on the electric meter to
    see the difference, and the dryer almost spins the meter into orbit.
    Could something be fauly here such as the electric meter or dryer?
    
    I also noticed at Summerville Lumber, non of the electric dryers have
    any energy useage comments (yellow stickers) like refridges and washers
    do. I wonder why$$$

>    Would a relatively large electric dryer (30 amp service) add an easy $40 
>    to the bill if used 3 times aweek? Doesn't seem right!

Most electric dryers are on 30 amp circuits.  Theres should be an indication 
on the dryer as to its actual maximum consumption.

Back of envelope figuring:

    Say dryer draws 25 amps for 2 hours each wash day (maybe less,
    especially if heater coil cycles on and off). 25a x 2h x 120v = 6 kwh/day.

    (3 days/week) x (4 wk/month) = 12 days/month. 12 x 6 = 72 kwh/month.

    72 x $.08 (say) = $5.76/month.

An electric hot water heater takes a much higher toll on the month bill..

Rich

    How many watts does the dryer use?  Electric dryers are expensive to
    operate anyhow - like an electric stove.
    
    /Charlotte

    re: .22
    Isn't it 25A (or whatever) at 240 volts, not 120 volts?
    I also suspect your $.08 figure may be a tad low.

A standard electric dryer will draw at least 20A at 240V which works out to
4.8KW/HR.  12-15 cents/KWH is more common, let's take 12 as the low side, so
you're talking about 60 cents/hour to run the dryer.  I can't quite imagine
this adding $40/month to a bill, though.

			Steve

    Thanx for the figures re:- .
    
    I thought we had gas hot water, but let me check. Maybe not!
    I wonder now just where the electric juice straw is then...
    - maybe the A/C that was on for a few days last month (thats 2 of them, 1
      @120VAC window model and the 2nd @240 built-in) 
    - the electric stove?
    
    Anyways, the cloths line went up in an effort. Maybe it's also time for
    flourescent lights.
    
    Thanx again, Dave'
    
    
    

	    If they have an electric stove and electric dryer, I think 
	it's likely they have an electric water heater (no gas).  Add 
	two people to a house, that's an additional ~60 showers a
	month.  More use of the stove, microwave, lights, TV, stereo,
	refrigerator, etc. It can add up quickly. A water saver shower
	head and the clothesline could give you some quick recovery on
	the electric bill. 

					Tim

    For what it's worth,  last November or so we replaced an electric dryer
    that we had for about 20 years, since I had a chance to pick up a
    virtually new gas dryer for $00.00.  I spent about $150 to have gas
    pipes run over to the dryer (labor is expensive, pipes and fittings are
    more so). We use natural gas for heating, cooking, hot water and now
    drying.
    
    Our gas bill went up by about $10.00 per month, our electric bill
    dropped. Even though PSNH put in a ~5% increase in January, our
    electric bill has seen a net drop of $20. I guess gas is cheaper than
    electric, and in our situation (only cost was the installation) it was
    worth it.  When we move out to the boonies next year, I will keep the
    dryer and convert it to propane.
    
    However, I'm not sure I would dump a reasonably new electric, buy a new
    gassie, and pay for the installation.  Under those circumstances, it
    would take a while to realize any gain.
    
    Dave

    Water heater is gas, so is the FHW. I calculated the dryer useage and 
    proved this was not the cause, but was added to the various added
    conditions below.
    - more electric stove useage
    - more washing machine useage
    - drip coffe machine now in use
    - added cloth iron
    - added hair dryer
    - found 75 watt bulbs thru out the house
    - one 120vac window A/C used 3 days in September
    - one 240vac built-in A/C used 3 days in September
    - added one 125 gallon fish tank
    - additional bathroon light useage
    - FHW heat now in use at night
    - larger dishwasher loads using heat dry mode
    - one more water bed on high
    - one more VCR/TV on two hours a night
    
    So I believe it all adds up to the $40 differenc...mystery solved.
    Now to solve the high useage problem.
       
    Thanx, Dave'

    - more electric stove useage
    - more washing machine useage
    - drip coffe machine now in use
    - added cloth iron
x    - added hair dryer
    - found 75 watt bulbs thru out the house
    - one 120vac window A/C used 3 days in September
    - one 240vac built-in A/C used 3 days in September
    - added one 125 gallon fish tank
    - additional bathroon light useage
    - FHW heat now in use at night
x    - larger dishwasher loads using heat dry mode
xx    - one more water bed on high
    - one more VCR/TV on two hours a night
    
    So I believe it all adds up to the $40 differenc...mystery solved.

>>>>I might suggest the couple of items X'ed  above are the biggest 
culprits here. they get used without much though of the electric they burn 
up. The water bed by itself must add a good $$ to the bill, I know my 
son's does when he came home from college and turned it up. The hair dryer 
is also a big user, they don't rate 'em 1500 watts for nothing...

    Cutting back? Let the dishes dry naturally in the washer, wash last 
thing at nite and unload the next morning. Turn down the waterbed and use a 
comforter on top to retain heat all night and all day. Let your hair dry 
partially over breakfast before you style and curl it. (well, maybe you 
just dry it, no curls 8^)

    Now that you're aware of the extra cost, I suspect the bill will drop 
as folks turn out lights, etc on their own.

    	Vic

    It's amazing what extra a few light bulbs left on through a house can
    do for an electric bill.  We have noticed a sizeable increase in our
    electric bills whenever we have sold a house ... you know how the real
    estate agents insist on the idea of ... if there's a light ... turn it
    on!  What are buyers ? Blind ?
    
    Stuart

    I plan to run my exhaust outside eventually, but in the meantime I've
    just been letting it exit into the cellar.  My daughter believes this
    might cause a fire if the lint ignites.  Until we get the window fixed,
    my daughter opens it and puts the hose outside.  I'm concerned about
    critters getting in.  Is a fire likely/possible?  It's a gas dryer and
    the oil burner is about 15-20 feet away.
    
    Karen
    

    re: .44
    
    Why does your daughter think the lint is any less likely to ignite
    if the hose is outside?  I can't see that it makes any difference
    one way or the other.  The only consideration I know of worth thinking
    about is that by exhausting the dryer inside, you are adding a LOT
    of moisture to the air in the cellar, which may not be particularly
    desirable.  

re .44

You are also putting a considerable amount of very fine lint into the air.  If
any of you have respiratory problems, you may notice discomfort.  We vented a
dryer inside for a while when we were in an apartment; we had respiratory 
problems that ended when we stopped venting indoors.  Granted, an apartment is
smaller than a house, but the lint is still there.

FWIW,

Dave

    I would suggest you vent it outside as soon as possible. As I remember
    the vent on a gas dryer also vents gas combustion exhaust and in the event
    of a failure or no ignition it could also vent unburned gas into your
    basement!  
                                    
    Don   

    Doesn't a gas dryer have a thermocouple to shut down the gas supply 
    in case of a failure??
    
    Edd

    And can't you buy a T so that you can pump warm dryer air back into the
    house during the winter months?  I believe there is a filter on the
    line going into the house.

    When we had the gas company come out and turn on the gas when we moved
    into our house last September (we have a gas stove, FHA, water heater
    and clothes dryer) he specifically said not to vent a gas dryer into 
    the house as it contains toxic vapors. FWIW.

I think any toxic exhaust would be the result of incomplete combustion, not
the result of no combustion at all (e.g. carbon monoxide).

    Thanks all.
    
    I plan to vent outside when I get a free moment (hopefully. sometime
    before the turn of the century).  In the meantime I have a concern with
    leaving a cellar window open.  She has a concern with any lint being
    exhausted into the cellar igniting.
    

    
    
    Considor the effect of the moisture.... My neighbor had a majority of
    the paint forced off of his clapboard due to a dryer exhausted internaly.
    Think of the weight of a wet load of laundry, and a dry load. The
    difference, 10 or so lbs per wash, is now in the house ( x several
    loads per week = lots of moisture, mildew, echhhhhtcetra......)
    
    8^{

    My electric dryer has exhausted into the cellar for years. The air
    doesn't fill up with lint (at least at anything even remotely close
    to an ignitable level).
    
    To tell the truth, after doing this for 8 years, I don't think there's
    even an appreciable amount of lint "downwind" of the exhaust...
    
    Edd

   You can buy vent diverters at the hardware stores. The one I got for my
   previous apartment/house electrict dryer was a square box with a flap on
   a handle.   You cut the vent line and inserted this into it. With the
   flap open, the air went though. If you closed the flap, air was blocked
   from continuing outside and vented into the basement through a lint
   screen.
   
   Believe me! that screen needed to be cleaned every month.
   
   In fact, once the entire vent line had enough condensation and lint in it
   that it blocked the flow of air.  I had to disconnect it, take it
   outside and drain it out.  I removed about a gallon of water and lint.
   
   I think it's a great way to save energy in the winter, but the lint
   is a real cleanliness issue.   A common cheap filter is to use a panty
   hose on the end of the line.
   
   	Dave.

    I tried "free heat" for the garage for 2 years. After seeing what it
    (moisture) did to my tools and things, I routed it outside. I
    personally would never (ever) consider inside routing of a dryer again.

re: .previous

only works as supplemental heat to a heated space.  If you dump it to an
unheated space then yes, condensation will ruin window sills and any metal
objects. 

I had the dryer hose switch mechanism in my last house.  The basement/laundry
room was heated by woodstove/electric.  I would only run the dryer inside when
the heat was on.  The excess moisture from the dryer nicely balanced the dryness
of the woodstove/electric heat.

I haven't done it yet in my new basement with Oil FHW.  I'm monitoring the
humidity, though.  It would be silly to send the dryer moisture outside on
one floor but run a humidifier on another.

Elaine

Heat deflector gizmo for clothes dryer.

I have a peculiar phenomena happening with my electric dryer after installing
the heat deflector.

I purchased this plastic heat deflecting gizmo that gets connected into
the dryer vent hose.  You cut the hose somewhere above the dryer (my dryer
is in the basement, and the vent hose goes up the wall and out the sill),
I cut the hose about half way up the wall (above the dryer) and inserted
this deflector.  You merely reconnect the hoses on the top and bottom of
the deflector.  The deflector has a flap than when closed allows the heat
exhausted air to travel straight up the hose, and when open deflects the
heat out into the room (in my case the basement), there is a removable
screen about 4" square, that the heat travels thru, this screen collects
any lint...

Anyway, the gizmo worked nicely, it deflected the hot moist air into
the basement.

The problem I have is that the clothes in the dryer were NOT drying once I
inserted this thing.  We would have to run the dryer thru almost a full second
cycle to get the clothes dry.

Even when we closed the gizmo vent the clothes were not drying completely.

I removed the gizmo, inserted a coffee can at the split vent hose and duct
taped and strapped the hose back together.  Now the dryer works fine, dries
in one cycle again.

I can't figure out what could have caused the problem.  Any ideas?
    
    Thanks, Mark

The gizmo is restricting the exhaust air flow too much.  They're a bad idea,
anyway.

		Steve

    It seemed like a good idea.  Here I have this 5000 watt dryer
    generating moist heat exhaust, might as well use the by-product to
    heat and humidify the basement...  But, not at the expense of having
    ro run a load twice.
    
    Why do you find it a bad idea?  Thanks, Mark

    See note 1039.  Tell you all you wanted to know.
    
    George
    

    Thanks, I read 1039.*
    
    Interesting.  Guess I'll leave it venting outside.
    
    Moderators, you may want to move all of this onto 1039.
    Suppose that is where this conversation really belongs.
    
    Mark                                           

    Actually, if it was from hell it would probably dry the clothes a lot
    better.
    
    Ok gang, this about my third reply in this note about fixing a problem
    with my gas drier.  It's about 20 years old and really time for a new one 
    but I hate to throw in the towel (no pun intended).  The heating element 
    ignites the gas but the flame only stays on for a few seconds, goes off 
    and about two minutes later will come on again.  The drier continues to 
    cycle liket his.  The clothes get warm but it takes a LONG time to dry a
    load. In the last several years I've relaced the ceramic heating
    element, the thermocouple, both drum rollers, and for this problem have
    replaced the two thermostats.  Replacing the thermostats didn't help.
    Anyone have any other ideas on what it could be?  The thermocouple was
    replaced 1 to 2 years ago.  Could it have gone bad again already?
    
    GEorge

    
    What's the gas pressure after the regulator?  If it's dying out
    slowly then later will fire off again, only to slowly die,
    the regulator may be sticking.  When was the last time you
    drained the drip leg?
    
    Been quite a few years since I toyed with gas appliances but
    (correct me if wrong) I think you should have 3" if you're on
    natural gas and about 7" water column if on L.P.
    
    Fred

Three possibilities, one quick, all cheap and easy.  First, a few years ago I
had the gas company come out to look at the furnace.  I explained that the
pilot would stay on for a while but then would just go out.  I did not mention
that I had taken the thermocouple and gas switch (not the whole gas valve) off
and tested them (with a low flame) to make sure the thermocouple was, indeed,
causing the switch to operate.  The service man suggested we try a quick fix
before replacing the gas valve (which I already was sure was ok).  He simply
pushed more of the thermocouple into the flame area - further in than the
instructions on the package called for.  Now, I am into about the 3rd year
with this one whereas I was replacing the about every year (and setting them
by the instructions). 

Second, if that is of no help, have you recently shut off the gas to the house?
And then turned it back on (of course)?  There is a safety valve in the line 
from the street to the house that will operate if there is a sudden rush of 
gas towards the house; such as a broken pipe.  That valve can also operate if 
you have had the gas off and then turn the valve back on quickly .  The rush 
of gas "charging" the empty pipes is enough to operate the valve.  Although 
the ball inside the valve CAN drop back when the pressure is stabilized, it 
often does not and a very low trickle of gas comes through.  This can be 
maddengly difficult to notice - from 1st hand experience -  since the pressure 
is enough to "charge" your poipes over a few hours.  That will enable 
appliances such as gas drier and water heater to operate - but only for a 
while. Then the pilot goes off, the gas lines charge up, the thermostat calls 
for the appliance to operate and the cycle repeats itself.  But it LOOKS like 
everything is working, but not well.  I am told that this happens A LOT when 
homeowners do their own gas work.

The gas company can correct the problem in one of 2 ways.  They can connect a 
portable tank of propane at abut 20 lbs to the line and apply back pressure.  
If that does not work, and it almost always does, they can come out with a 
compressor and put about 60lbs in there.  If THAT does not work, they dig up 
your yard to replace the valve.  

Finally, it COULD be something in the regulator in the meter.

In any case, you wont get charged for repairs to anything up to the house side 
of the meter.  So, if it is the valve or the meter, THEY fix it.  Although I 
would play dumb if you think you might have done yourself in by turning on 
your gas too quickly - especially if they have to come out and dig up the 
yard.

Luck,

Dave

    George - There is a flame sensor just to the side of where the flame
    would be. I did not hear (see?) you mention that you checked it. Its
    JOB is to shut off the gas after a few seconds if it does not see a
    flame. It is a photocell.
    
    				Kenny
    

    regulator - the flame doesn't die out slowly it is definitely shut off
    but I'll check the length of the drip leg.
    
    gas pressure - no, haven't shut the gas off except at the drier.  The
    shutoff is about 5 feet away from the inlet to the machine.  
    
    thermocouple - the thermocouples has a mounting plate attached to it. 
    The amount it can sit in the hot air stream (it doesn't sit in the
    flame) is predetermined.  
    
    flame sensor - that works fine.  I tested it when I started up the
    machine after replacing one of the thermostats and forgot to turn the
    gas back on.  dahhhh
    
    George

    
      You proved the flame sensor shut off the gas when you had no flame.
    But did you also prove that the flame sensor was happy when there *was*
    a flame?
    
    				Kenny

    
    >>But did you also prove that the flame sensor was happy when there
    >>*was* a flame?
    
    Good point.  how can I test this?
    
    George

    
      It occurs to me that you should have a wiring diagram near the gas
    valve? The resistance of the cad cell should change a lot when there is
    a flame as opposed to when there isn't. I forget the numbers exactly,
    but its like at least a 10 fold change (10 times more or 1/10 as much -
    I forget which) The wires will still end up going into the gas valve.
    
      I have to say, it sounds like the cad cell.
    
    					Kenny

   I am having a different sort of problem with my electric dryer, and
   would like to see if anybody else has seen something like this...
   
   I recently picked up a used dryer.  I don't know how old it is, but
   its probably *at least* 8-10 yrs old.  I was told that the heating
   element was replaced last year some time, and that it was working fine
   up to the day I picked it up.
   
   The problem is that I got a shock from pressing the "Start" button
   last night, and my wife got one a few days ago.  I replaced the cord
   last night - I was guessing that perhaps I crimped or otherwise
   damaged the old cord while moving the dryer.  After I got it all back
   together I checked it out, and the first time I pressed "Start", I got
   shocked.  I tried it at least a dozen times after that, and I have not
   received any more shocks.  Further, the dryer seems to be working just
   fine (timed dry cycle heats fine, and shuts off as expected).
   
   I should probably mention that both times when a shock was received,
   we were standing barefoot on a cement floor.  But I don't know if that
   matters since last night I was standing barefoot in the same spot the
   multiple times I did *not* get shocked as well.

   The dryer is resting directly on the cement also.  The cellar is not
   *completely* dry, but its only bad enough to call it moist, not wet.
   Its dry enough down there to keep books, fabric, papers and
   woodworking projects without any worry of water or moisture damage.
   
   I am guessing that there is some sort of intermittent short in the
   controls, but I wanted to see if there were any other areas I should
   check out, or if anybody else had seen anything like this.
   
   Thanks,
   
   - Tom

     Well Tom, if nothing else, you should make sure the ground wire from
    the dryer to the plug, and from the outlet to the breaker box is in
    good shape. With all those cloths rubbing against each other, dryers
    can build up a lot of static, not top mention the necessity of
    electrical safety.
    
    				Kenny
    

    Re: .79
    
    Sounds like a defective ground/shorted wire. I would not use the dryer
    until you have found the problem. Check out the wiring diagram with
    a VOM meter before you are another statistic.
    
    Marc H.

    I'd guess an open in the neutral. Stoves are dryers are the only
    things allowed to use the same wire for the grounding and neutral wire.
    A true 240V load doesn't connect to the neutral, and so only needs 3
    wires (Hot1, Hot2, and grounding). Stoves and dryers (generally) have
    120V loads in them, and are thus normally would need 4 wires (Hot1,
    Hot2, Neutral or 'grounded', and ground or 'grounding'). But, in most
    places code allows you to use 3 wires. The problem with this is that
    the case of the appliance can become live if there is an open neutral.
    
    Seeing as the motor is often a 120V load in a dryer, and it draws
    significant current when starting, the data seems to fit the model..
    
    ...tom

    Also, if the "don't become another statistic hint" wasn't clear enough,
    you don't want to test this by standing barefoot on the floor and trying
    it again!

    Get an AC voltmeter and connect one probe to a valid ground, and the other
    to something metal on the dryer.  If the meter twitches when you start the
    dryer, you're not done yet.

   re: becoming a statistic... 
   
   no, the implications did not go by me...  one thing I have learned
   over the years is caution with electricity...
   
   I have a question then about all this... as I mentioned, my wife got
   zapped once, and so did I, and I spent a bit of time checking it out
   that night, so I was pressing "start" fairly regularly for several
   minutes as well as running it through a regular dry cycle with a load
   of clothes.
   
   Given that there is clearly something wrong, have I done any damage to
   the unit using it as is?  Is there anything else I need to check out
   when I finally get a meter in there?  Have I started to fry any
   circuits or otherwise further the damage to the controls?  Or was it
   just my well-being that was at risk that night... :-)
   
   Thanks,
   
   - Tom

    if it *is* a faulty neutral, check the wiring diagram to see if there
    are any 120V loads on the other side of the line. Any such loads could
    be subject to excessive voltage.
    
    If the motor *is* a 120V load, I don't think it would start if the
    neutral were completely floating; it would just have to have excessive
    resistance..
    
    ...tom

    I have a Kenmore Heavy Duty electric dryer that I have had for approx.
    12 problem-free years.  This evening, it appears I am now having one
    :-(
    
    The symptoms:  No heat, and the timer does not appear to be advancing.
    
    Ideas?
    
    -Andy

	    I lost heat (but the timer still worked).  Turned out that
	one of the two fuses had blown.  

					Tim

    That happened to me twice over the years it turned out to be the
    heating element both times.  Like -1 my timer still worked though.

    Joe

    I now have new problems.  Let's see, here's what has transpired and
    where we stand now:
    
    . I have by-pass'd the two operating thermostats, the heater element
      thermostat and, what appears to be, a thermal-fuse or resistor of
      some sort.  Still no heat.  (I did this because each, with exception
      of the heater element thermostat, appeared charred on the outside)
    . I have visually checked the heater element and it appears to be good
      (see more below)
    . I purchased a timer (at the advice of a neighbor and some folks at
      Sears) as it is not advancing and can control the level of heat for
      the unit, but I am hesitant to use it yet (it's a $70 part and, if I
      open the box, I eat the cost whether it's bad or not.  FWIW, I
      purchased the timer from Whirlpool since Sears wanted 7-10 business
      days to factory order it).
    
    Talking with the fellow at Whirlpool, we discussed the possiblities
    (in no particular order):
    
    . Heater Element (this was before I'd visually inspected it)
    . Circuit breaker (dummy me forgot their are two -- 120v & 240v.  
      I thought, if the thing runs, it can't be the breaker).
    . Thermostat (before I bypass'd them)
    . Some kind of motor switch (forgot what he called this)
    . Timer (I think this came out in our conversation)
    
    Well, I did the above and everything seems to have checked out (except
    the motor thing and the timer).  I inadvertently got my neighbor
    involved when I borrowed a tool from him and he used a volt-meter to
    check for power going to the heater element (it seems to be getting it)
    but his hand slipped, sparks flew and now we have new problems:
    
    . The drum won't turn unless started by hand
    . The buzz alarm (as if the drying cycle has finished) sounds
      continuously when the timer is positioned at the end of any cycle. 
    
    I've come the conclusion that:
    
    . The element may be bad even though, visually, it looks good.
    . We may have done something to the motor or perhaps the aforementioned
      motor switch(?)
    
    Ideas?
    
    -Andy

    . The element may be bad even though, visually, it looks good.

	    If you friend has a meter, does the meter measure ohms?  A
	heater element will have a rather small resistance, probably
	around 100 ohms.  

					Tim

    What is the proper way to vent a gas dryer??   I went to Somerville
    Lumber and they sold me a Aluminium flex pipe.  When I tried to install
    it it just unraveled when I streched it.  So I returned it and grabbed
    a vinal hose.  It attached easy but felt hot when running the dryer. 
    the dryer is in a closet with no room to work so you have to slide it
    out and then slide it back in, thats why I need something with flex.
    I suppose I could try solid duct but it does not appear easy..
    

The best way is to use sheet-metal ducting.  The second best is the
flexible aluminum ducting.  If you pull on one end of the strip it will
indeed unravel, but otherwise it will pull out just fine.  The vinyl and
wire duct should not be used for gas dryers.

				Steve

    re: gas dryer venting
    
    We've had gas dryers in our house for 12 years, and always had
    them vented with the vinyl dryer ducting.  I tried the flexible
    aluminum ducting, and to put it briefly - it s*cks.  The solid
    sheet-metal ducting works, but is a real pain if you need to move
    the dryer to clean around it, etc.  I've found that even though
    the gas dryer gets a bit warmer than its electric counterpart, it
    never gets too hot and never splits or bubbles from the heat.  As
    a matter of fact, when we replaced our dryer last year it had
    the original vinyl ductwork attached, and aside from some lint
    build up inside, it was solid as a rock.
    
    With any gas dryer,  you need to insure a relatively air-tight vent
    path so the CO fumes dont go into the house. The vinyl venting
    actually makes a better ductwork than the hard sheet-metal ducting
    since it's more air-tight.  Our setup has about 10 feet of flexible
    vinyl ductwork that attaches to a 15' run of sheet metal ductwork
    going inside the framing to the outside location.  The sheet metal
    ductwork is there because it was built in and would never move.  But
    the 10' section inside the basement is vinyl and its flexibility is
    an advantage to us.
    
    Just some thoughts.
    
    andy
    

                                               
Speaking of venting gas dryers: My current setup, inherited from the previous
owner has a length of flexible hose running along the floor to some round, rigid
duct that vents to the outside. I'm wondering if it wouldn't be safer to have
the flexible duct meet the rigid higher up the wall to keep the accumulation
of lint, etc. to a minimum or is this not a real concern?
                                               
Using state-of-the-art VT multimedia graphics 8-), I've sketched out the
current and proposed setups.                   
                                               
Any helpful comments appreciated.              
                                                              
                     | |                           | |          
  CURRENT:           | | rigid      PROPOSED:      | |  rigid   
     _______         | |                _______    |_|          
     |_____|         | |                |-----|   /_/           
     | ___ |         | |                | ___ |  /_/            
     |(   )|         | |                |(   )| /_/  flex       
     | --- |_________| |                | --- |- /              
     |_____|_|_|_|_|_|_|                |_____|_/               
              flex                                              

    Is CO a big concern on gas??  I thought it burnt fairly clean??
    

Solid metal tubing is always better than the accordian type.  Because there
are no ridges, there is less air resistance.  This means the humid air can
get out easier, the blower motor doesn't get strained, and clothes will dry
faster, especially when long runs of pipe are involved.  Also, less lint
will settle down along the pipe interior of solid pipe than accordian.
Metal (both solid and accordian) is more fire resistant than plastic.

Gas burns fairly cleanly, provided the burners are adjusted properly.  Also,
any type of flame consumes oxygen.  If you vent the gas dryer indoors, it's
a closed system where the oxygen gets used up and possibly replaced by
nasty-type gasses.  If vented outdoors, fresh air gets drawn in through
other parts of the house.

Rat hole: Few houses are truly completely air-tight - there is always air
infiltration around doors, windows, electric plugs in walls, etc.  The ones
that are need air exchangers for similar reasons - out with the "bad" air,
in with the "good".  If you have a completely airtight house with no means
of fresh air exchange, you get "sick building syndrome" where the air
quality inside goes down and down as do the occupants.

-Mike

    
    
    	This looks like the most appropriate place for this note, Mods
    	feel free to move it if not.
    
    	What type of an adapter is required to go from natural gas to lp
    	gas or vice versa?
    
    	Thanks!
    
    	/andy

    
    Just to "put an addition" on the rathole, I noticed that a few places
    are now selling CO detectors for around $40.  Anyone got one of these?
    Are they prone to false alarms?
    
    Colin
    

    	I'm no expert, but the only thing that I've ever heard of that 
    needs to be changed is the nozzle (jet).
    
    	Ray

When I bought a used stove, my favorite appliance expert told me there
is a pressure regulator which is used for the one and essentially bypassed
for the other and I don't remember which but I post it in here somewhere under
stove repair.

-Bob

when I converted my nat. gas dryer to propane, I got a "kit" for the dryer. 
Its a white-westinghouse (about 6 years old).  The kit included a replacment
nozzel and a new "cone" (in the shape of an ice cream cone).  The dealer said
that the one for nat. gas would not work with the propane (no reason given).

Brian J.

    
    	Thanks folks.  Brian, did you install the kit yourself?
    
    
    	/andy

>>    	Thanks folks.  Brian, did you install the kit yourself?

Yes.  A screwdriver and an adjustable wrench was all it took.

    Can I vent my gas dryer thru' the gas water heater vent?

>                     <<< Note 5125.8 by AMCMKO::HAZARIKA >>>
>                  -< vent gas dryer thru' water heater vent? >-
>
>    Can I vent my gas dryer thru' the gas water heater vent?
Only if you like risk of fire.  A Dryer's vent is LOADED with lint.

Dave

I don't think you EVER want to combine vents.

			Steve

    I would question what would happen when both are on at the same time.
    By definition,  there is air (exhaust) flow through the dryer
    vent and thus some level of pressure. Think about the possibility of
     the hw exhaust not being able to
    overcome that pressure, and being forced backwards. 
    
    Unless you install a one way check valve, which I do not believe exists
    for non-fluids. 

	I'm 99% certain that venting a furnace thorugh the dryer vent would
	be against code. Vents for furnaces, gas water heaters, etc., have
	minimum clearances that they have to meet for windows as well as for
	other vents. Otherwise the exhaust gases can come back into the
	house through the vent for the other appliance. If you have a
	problem (such as a furnace that starts giving off carbon monoxide),
	this could kill you.

	Roy

   Well, thought I'd follow up on this, and ask more questions...
   
   That dryer that I asked about a few months ago has been replaced.  I
   found that not only was the start button occasionally "live", but I
   was able to get a shock off the cycle select button, and from the trim
   on the casing of the dryer itself.  Given all this, I'd guess it
   wasn't an intermittent or startup problem, but probably a solid short
   somewhere in the system.  
   
   I continued to use the unit with extreme caution for a couple of
   months.  Yes, this was a bit stupid, I know, but we all make our own
   choices.  The final deciding factor was last week.  A load did not
   completely dry - I restarted it only to find that when it finished, it
   was still not dry, and was still cold.  Clearly it was not heating up.
   I found later that it managed to blow one of the fuses as well.  I
   installed a new unit (and a new fuse) over the weekend and all is
   well.
   
   Now my questions ... this calls for some speculation, but I've learned
   that some engineers love to speculate :-)  so here goes..
   
   As I mentioned, the dryer was not heating, and a fuse was blown.  I do
   not know which failed first or if it was simultaneous.  How do you
   think this happened?  Would a single blown fuse cause the heating
   element to fail yet allow the motor to spin the drum?  If the blown
   fuse was a result of the "short" condition, any thoughts on why it
   would have taken 4 months to finally blow?
   
   Curiously,
   
   - Tom

Speculation coming up ...

The motor is a 120V motor, and was on the same side of the 120-0-120 circuit
as the fuse that did not blow.

What you probably had for months was something like this where X was the
short circuit ...


	120V (L1)   ----+---/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\X\/\/\/\/\----- 120V (L2)
			|	   	     |	
			|	        ------	
			|		|
			----[MOTOR]-----+
					|
					|
					|
				  0V (Neutral and Ground)

This could allow currents to flow in both halves of the heating element
and would give heat roughly equivalent to the unshorted element ...
but the current in the L2 line would be higher than normal ... this would
eventually blow the fuse ... and it the element is also likely to burn
out too, probably at the point of the short.

When the L2 fuse blows, the L1 circuit is still complete through the
motor to ground, hence why the modem still ran.

Stuart

    	I need some help in debugging an electric dryer problem. The unit
    	is my mother's and I will visit it this weekend. The reported
    	problem is that the dryer spins clothes OK and the clothes do
    	indeed get hot - but they just don't dry out. I hadn't seen this
    	problem addressed in here so far.

    	The only thing I can think of is that the vent or flexible tube is
    	blocked with lint somehow, preventing the hot moisture from escaping?
    	Anyone ever have this problem? Anything else I should be looking
    	for in case a vent blockage isn't the problem?

    	-Erik

    
    Definitely look for a clogged vent -- or a lint trap in desperate need
    of cleaning :-)
    
    BTW, I lost a good down vest once when an in-law's clogged vent caused
    the dryer to get hot enough to melt the nylon shell.
    

    
    I had the same problem problem with our ~10year old Kenmore. I took it
    apart to clean it and found nothing. The gaskets and seals on the ends
    of the drum looked worn so I replaced those at a cost of about $35.
    That fixed it.
    
    Steve
    

   Does anybody know of any uses for dead electric dryers.  As you may
   know if you've read through some of the earlier notes in this string,
   I have a dead dryer... it seems a shame to just chuck it out... I'll
   call around to see if local repair shops want it, but I wanted to know
   if there were any useful applications people had found for the drum,
   or the shell, or any other major part of an electric dryer..
   
   Thanks,
   
   - Tom
   

    
    
    ....well, the drum can be used for a planter...
    and the shell you can cutup and use as patches for
    the rust spots on your car!!  :)
    
    JD

- You can use the cord for tying up your muffler when it falls off your car.

- The vent tubing is handy for Habitrail runs in your gerbil cage.

- the control knobs make nice handles for files

- hmm, there's a fan belt in there ...

    
    If the heater's broke but the drum still moves, consider using it as
    an amusement ride for your favorite cat :-)
    

If it's big enough, you could make a nifty drum composter out of it.

    You can use it as a platform on which to do work on the ceiling
    directly above it...
    
    Use it to toss really big salads!
    
    Use the vent screen to practice your jai-alai serves...
    
    Replace the door with a piece of dark glass and tell everyone it's a
    TV, your dryer works fine and we'll take you into the family room to
    prove it. (You'll need a VCR and a tape of tumbing clothes to make this
    one work effectively...)
    
    If you live on Vernon Hill in Worcester, use it as a parking spot
    holder...
    
    Edd

    
    >If the heater's broke but the drum still moves, consider using it as
    >an amusement ride for your favorite cat :-)
    
    Better still, replace the motor with an old alternator, throw in the
    gerbils AND the cat and sell the electricity back to the power company.
    
    ;-)
    

    Take the drum out, make up an internal pivot and put in a fan blade,
    then put this over a table lamp.  The lamp will heat air into the
    fan, which will in turn rotate the drum, and the light will also go
    out through the little holes, making a lovely pattern on the walls,
    kind of like a mirror ball in a dance hall.
    
    Stuart

Habitrail for a capybara?



A capybara is the world's largest rodent -- the size of a medium dog.
In profile, they look a lot like Alfred Hitchcock.

    And if you were me, I'd go down stairs and replace another  30amp
    fuse.
    My tub turns and no heat sometimes too.
    replaced the fuse and now they both work until next time.
    
    
    Don
    
    

    re: my own .88

    	Forgot to follow-up here but I found the problem with my mother's
    	dryer, it was her wash machine. :-) It wasn't spinning the clothes 
    	fast enough and the clothes came out sopping wet, then into the
    	dryer. The spin problem happened gradually so it was not noticed
    	by anyone in the house, they just noticed the drying times taking
    	longer. 

    	Simple fix: bought a new washer. :-)  (it was time anyway)

    	Time for a humorous I-can't-believe-this story?

    	In probing why the dryer might not be working, I was told that
    	"maybe it was the time the dryer filled with water!" The washer
    	hoses for incoming water were not connected to the washer (don't
    	ask) and were draped over the dryer. While also unknown to anyone,
    	both hose faucets had a slow leak which dripped all night into the
    	dryer. My mother turned on the dryer in the morning before leaving 
    	for work (the clothes were already in) and left. Not long after,
    	she received a frantic call from my little sister "Mom! Mom! The
    	dryer sounds like a WASH machine!!" Thinking that my sister was 
    	just being paranoid, my mother told her to keep it running. When 
    	my mother got home, she opened the dryer door to find a wave of
    	water gushing onto the floor!! The drum was more than half full of
    	water!! And the dryer is still working, can you believe it. I'd
    	have thought the heating elements or motor would have shorted out,
    	or at least have burnt out from the weight of the water. But it's
    	still going... Who'd have thought!

    	-Erik

    Re:  .101
    
    
    >>Forgot to follow-up here but I found the problem with my mother's
    >>dryer, it was her wash machine. :-) It wasn't spinning the
    >>clothes fast enough and the clothes came out sopping wet, then into 
    >>the dryer.
    
    Funny, the same thing just happened at our house.  My wife had run a
    load through the washer on the "delicate" cycle.  Of course, normal loads
    didn't spin long enough and were still wet when they went in the dryer. 
    We both laughed when we figured it out.  Also felt pretty stupid.
    
    Chet                   

    I have an electric clothes dryer that is vented directly through a wall
    and into my garage. It is causing problems with excess humidity, etc in
    the garage. 
    
    I would like to reroute it but have some other obstacles in the way,
    i.e. 8" concrete walls, elevation, etc...
    
    My question is:
    
    * Is there any recommended limit to the length of a dryer vent line
    
    * Is there any problem with running the vent line vertically (up, a few
      feet)
    
    * What type of vent pipe is best for long runs, least amount of lint
      collection, etc..
    
    
    Any advice would be greatly appreciated!
    
    Rodney
    

	   There is an adapter available that allows you to direct the
	dryer exhaust (either) into the room where the dryer is located
	or out the dryer vent.  In the winter months, houses tend to get
	pretty dry, so it's not a bad thing to blow all that moist air
	into the living space.  In the warmer months, when you don't want
	to add any moisture into your house, you can direct the exhaust
	back out to the garage.
	    This isn't what you asked for, but it would most likely be
	the easiest, cheapest and quickest fix.

					Tim

	There's no problem running a line vertically for a few feet (i.e.,
	rfom a basement up about 6-7' to the outside. My only advice would
	be to make sure that it doesn't sag, and has as few twists and turns
	as possible.

	I personally wouldn't vent indoors unless there is a filter that
	will take out *all* of the lint from the air. The old pantyhose on
	the end of the pipe isn't good enough, BTW -- it lets lots of fine
	particles through. This isn't good for the lungs, and will also show
	up as fine dust throughout the room.

	Roy

I would advise against venting indoors.  It adds too much moisture and can
cause rot.

The best type of vent duct is sheet metal, which is smooth.  Next best is
flexible aluminum and last is plastic-coated wire.  The ideal duct will
be smooth, allowing for minimum resistance to the vented air and least
tendency to accumulate lint.

				Steve

    
    Oh, I wouldnt go totally against indoor venting....  It
    works great when the wood furnace is cranking!   The kit
    comes with a sock to place over the end.  It filters the lint
    great.  You'd be surprised what gets thru the machine filter....
    
    Now if your house is tight and you have a damp celler...then maybe
    not unless mushrooms are on your list!
    
    JD

    I would also tend not to vent indoors unless there were a way to
    circulate the air. I've had the vent disconnect by mistake. That small
    room was like a rain forest instantly.
    
    I would second the metal pipe/duct. Plastic can be a real fire hazard.
    If it is a long run, especially vertical, I would insulate it to keep
    the moisture from condensing in the vent.
    
    Peter Duke
    

	    I do have a wood stove which compliments a FHA system, so
	humidity is not a problem.  It's more like a necessity.  If this
	were a gas dryer, I wouldn't vent indoors.  I use the pleated,
	high efficiency filters for the FHA.  That may be why I haven't
	noticed any problems pertaining to particles.

					Tim

    If you still have information on the dryer, it will probably detail how
    long a vent you can have.  I think our Maytag dryer was spec'ed to
    handle up to 50' of straight (no bends) smooth (ie. galvanized) pipe.
    
    There was also a note that every right angle bend counted for so many
    feet (something like 8'), and that flexible dryer hose reduced the
    limit even further.  Basically, try to keep the bends to an absolute
    minimum, and use the galvanized pipe.
    
    ...Ken

    Thanks for all the input. I am going to get it done this weekend.
    
    Rodney
    

    Note that you can get 4" diameter Aluminum duct, which is lighter
    (not that it matters) and easier to work than galvanized duct.  I've
    seen straight sections and elbows.  It won't rust either, which
    *is* a concern with galvanized duct if you have to cut it.

I have what I hope is a simple question about dryer ducting.  I'm looking to
vent a (first floor) dryer but all of the ducting I have seen is 4" and the
wall uses typical 3-1/2" studs.

What I am wondering is the best way to do this.  Is there an oval duct that
provides the same flow rate as the round?  Should I simply put the hookup in
the floor?  Is there something obvious I have missed?

There are lots of ways I could do the hookup, but none of them seem very
clean.

- Mark

	Is there a reason you have to run the vent duct inside the wall?

	Roy

The only real reason I wanted to run it in the wall was for a tidy installation.
I'm certainly open to other ideas.  There isn't an option of running through the
wall (to the outside), as is/was done is most installations I've seen.

- Mark

You can get rectangular sheet metal duct that will fit in the wall space.  I'd
be a bit nervous about having a dryer duct in the wall, though, as it can
get pretty hot.  Where are you venting the dryer?

				Steve

Steve, currently the dryer is venting inside the house.  (My fiancee has been
doing it like the for quite a while, but I don't think it is such a hot (pun
intended :-) idea.  FWIW, it is an electric dryer.

The builder was supposed to fix this (many years ago), but he never did.  And...
since I'm finishing off a couple of rooms in the basement, I thought it would
be a reasonable time to fix this correctly (and vent it outside).

- Mark

I am against inside dryer venting; it causes a lot of problems due to excess
moisture. 

Could you explain a bit more clearly where the dryer is now and where you
want the vent to go?

				Steve

>  There isn't an option of running through the
>wall (to the outside), as is/was done is most installations I've seen.

	This confuses me. As -.1 asked, where is the dryer situated, and
	where do you want to vent it?

	Roy

Crude diagram:


	|        Kitchen          |
	|                         |
	+------------------+------+
   H	|     *   '        |      |
   a	|  Dryer  ' Washer |  WC  | <- Outside (back) wall
   l	|         '        |      |     of the house
   l	+                         +
	    /                     "
   w	   /                      " <- Bathroom window
   a	  /   /                   "
   y	+/   /                    +
	|   /                     |
	+-+/      +-+------+      |
	|   Linen   |XXXXXX|Vanity|
	|   Closet  |XXXXXX|      |
	+-----------+------+------+
	|                         |

The dryer, washer, and toilet share the wall common to the bathroom and kitchen.
On the opposite side, there is the linen closet and a vanity.  Also, there is a
simple 2x3 partition wall separating the washer and toilet.  (When the house was
built, there was the option of having this be a full bath, and the tub would be
where the washer and dryer are at the moment.)

From the above diagram, the dryer (vent) outlet is indicated by the asterisk.
What I would like to do is run the vent to the right, to the outside wall.  This
run would be about 10 feet.  If the dryer were located on the outside wall, it
would be simple.  However, I would like to have a reasonably tidy setup to get
to the outside wall.

- Mark

I don't think going horizontally inside the kitchen wall is an option,
as you'd have to cut through all of the studs.  If the ceiling joists run 
in a left-right direction (in reference to your diagram), you could possibly
make a run there.  But I think the best option is to use sheet metal duct
and run it along the corner between the wall and ceiling, through
the bathroom and then the outside wall.  If you painted the duct, it wouldn't
look too bad. 

Another possibility is to run it down through the floor and through the
basement (if there is one) and out through a basement window, if convenient,
but I don't really like this idea.

One thing that you may find handy is a duct adaptor that attaches to the
dryer and then has a 2x10 inch duct that goes up (at least 6 feet, I think).
This would allow the dryer to sit as close as 3" from the wall.  I'm planning
on ordering one of these myself; I found it in the "Leichtung Improvements"
catalog, I'll enter more info when I get a chance.

				Steve

What I was think of was a vertical run between the studs of the wall shared
by the bathroom and kitchen.  From there between the floor joists to the
outside wall.

My first thought was to put the vertical section in the cavity between the
studs.  Unfortunately, this is where the 4" vs 3-1/2" problem comes in.
Another approach might be to simply box in an "inlet", in the left corner,
to which the dryer would be connected.

- Mark

re: .18

What are the negatives of going through the basement?  That's
the way ours goes.  We did put it through the basement wall
via a regular dryer vent rather than going through a window.

   Gary

    
    The way this problem was solved in my house was to put a three
    inch hole through the floor behind the dryer. The hose runs down 
    hole where it follows the floor joists to a vent above the sill
    in the basement. Since the dryer won't be shuffled around in the
    room, the hole was of no concern.
    
    							- Mac

    
    Is it possible to switch position of the washer and dryer?
    
    I'm thinking it might then be possible to take the duct across
    the wall over the top of the WC tank, allowing enough clearance to
    access the tank.  Then box in the duct and make a storage
    cupboard above the WC, with the cupboard doors long enough to
    hide the duct inside the cupboard.
    
    The area above & behind a WC is dead space anyway.
    
                       []         []
                    XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX  outside
     +------+ +-----X+ []   __    []
     |   WM | | Dryer| []  [__]   []
     |      | |      | []  \  /   []
     +------+ +------+ []   wc    []
    
    
    Colin
    
                                                      

    As promised, here's the info on the thin dryer vent.
    
    	Great for dryers in closet areas.  Adjustable aluminum
    	duct needs just 3" behind your dryer to vent the same
    	volume as a 4" dia. round duct.  Installs vertically,
    	horizontally or diagonally, and extends from 24" to
    	41".  Choose 90 degree outlet duct for through-the-wall
    	venting directly behind the dryer or choose the straight
    	venting duct for through-the-ceiling or upper-wall venting.
    	2" front-to-back, 6" wide.  Meets code.
    
    	110098 - 90 degree dryer vent - $19.99
    	110106 - Straight dryer vent - $19.99
    
    	Leichtung Improvements
    	4944 Commerce Parkway
    	Cleveland, OH 44128
    	800-642-2112

I found the "thin" dryer vent at Home Depot; called an "adjustable 
periscope" (that's exactly what it looks like), it's available from HD in
two sizes (lengths), but only in the 90-degree version.  You can set it up
to vent either front or back.  The price is about half that of the catalog
(under $10 for the short version, under $12 for the long, which seems to be
the one from the catalog.)

I bought one and installed it.  It works fine, but the construction quality
is marginal and I'm going to have to use duct tape to seal off some leaks
around where the connector fits into the periscope tube.

The corrugated aluminum vent hose I had been using was full of lint - yuck.
I expect the smooth duct I now have (I could go from the periscope right to
an elbow and out the vent hood) will improve air flow and reduce lint buildup.

				Steve

	I'm about to do the gas piping for a new boiler and am trying to
	determine the size piping I need.  The install instructions
	say:

"E.  The minimum and maximum gas supply pressure for the gas used is shown on
     the boiler rating plate.  Table A may be used to determine required pipe
     sizes for natural gas."

	Table A lists gas flow in certain length/size pipes in units of
	cubic feet per hour.  However the min/max gas supply pressure on
	the boiler place is listed in "x inches w.c." (in my case it
	lists max as 14" W.C. and min as 5" W.C.).

	What units is this and how do I convert to cubic feet per hour?

   This seems to be the place to ask...
   
   I got a call recently regarding the electric dryer I bought last year.
   It seems that the factory warranty is about to expire, and they want
   to try to sell me an extended warranty (anywhere from 1-3 years).  I
   asked what the repair/failure history for dryers 4 years old or
   younger was, and he couldn't tell me.  (I bought it as Sears).  I
   intend to call the repair depot to ask them, but I thought I'd ask
   here too... 
   
   Should I expect to see any major problems with an electric dryer in
   the first 4 years?  If yes, what sorts of problems?   My gut reaction
   is that most electric dryers last a lot longer than 4 years with
   virtually no problems and the extended warranty would be a waste of
   money, but I figured I'd better check a little first.
   
   Thanks,

   - Tom

    
    As I recall, my electric dryer went at least ten years without a
    problem, and then I had to replace the fabric gasket around the back
    end of the drum and one of the idler wheels that support the back of
    the drum.
    
    Extended warranty discussion tend to devolve quickly to the realm of
    religion. I routinely reject them.
    

    Consumer Reports lists repair histories.  Sears (Whirlpool) washers
    and dryers do very well.  Any dryer should be relatively trouble-free
    for at least 7-10 years.
    
    					Steve

    
    10 years & going strong.  Sears.

   Thanks folks, that's about what I expected.  I got though on the phone
   at lunch today to talk with one of the tech's at the Sears repair
   depot, and he told me about the same thing - that they're good for at
   least 10 years, and about the only thing I *might* need to worry about
   would be a belt, or heating element, or thermostat, depending on how
   much I use the thing.
   
   regards,
   
   - Tom

    Actually, the average lifetime for a dryer is 15-20 years.  The
    washer is more likely to break first, as it's more complicated.
    
    				Steve

    I burned out a belt and a bearing in my Monkey Wards dryer in about
    5-7 years.  Fixing them was ... an education.  :-)
    
    ed

    Just replaced the heater box on my 15 year old whirlpool.
    
    Brian

    The dryer in our house (~6 yrs old) is located in the center of the 2nd
    floor; since the builder 'forgot' to take care of the venting before
    the walls were done (!!), the venting was not done well.  It is
    basically up to the attic and then across and just shoved into the
    soffet vent.  Unfortunately, I didn't catch this while the construction
    was in progress or while we still had a good relationship with the
    builder.  Recently I discovered that there was a leak in the pipe (the
    plastic corrugated stuff (arggh) and it is almost at the soffet end, so
    there's almost no room to maneuver to fix it.  I tried a temporary fix
    of wrapping it with a piece of insulated hot-water heater blanket, but
    the REAL problem is that the venting goes to soffet and there is
    enought leakage that it is starting to cause problems with heat and
    moisture inside that part of the roof.  I am looking for some ideas of
    how to rectify this without incurring a huge expense.  Would venting
    straight up through the roof be an option (this is almost at the ridge)?
    If not, then I would seem to be stuck with a fairly lengthy run across
    the attic and still have to deal with getting to the outside.  There
    really isn't any way to get to the outside on the second floor, at
    least not without very significant reconstruction.  I thought briefly
    about the indoor venting since we could use the humidity, but most of
    the comments in this conference would seem to direct me away from that.
    
    Any ideas would be appreciated.  Thanks.
    
    	/jeff

    Yes, you can vent out through the roof.  You need a special vent cap
    designed for this, but they're easy to find.  You can even use the
    "energy saving" plastic vent with a "shuttle" that shuts off
    positively.  You will probably want a roofer to install the vent.
    Then rerun (if you can) using aluminum duct (best) or aluminum
    corrugated hose (2nd best).
    
    The soffit vent is often done, but it seems to me it can cause
    problems as you seem to have found.
    
    					Steve

	I have an older gas dryer that is having a problem.  I did
not have time last night to fully look at it so I figured I would
blast out a note looking for ideas.    When you turn the dryer on
the ignitor works and lights the pilot flame but the "blow tourch"
never lights.  As I said I did not have time so I did not clean 
all the connections and tap on the solonoids.  Any ideas on what
to check???

Thanks, Colin

    
    Bad connectors on the program selector switch (if it has one).
    
    The thermocouple might be bad or the pilot flame may not be
    directed towards the thermocouple.  (You can get a generic replacement
    at most appliance stores).
    
    If that's ok, then there may be a device that prevents the burner from
    staying on too long or getting to hot (like a fuse that melts to
    prevent burner overruns).

    Well I had some time last night to take a look at it and I found
    the belt that drives the fan to be broken.  I will run to the 
    sears part store in Northboro and hope they have one.  I guess
    there is a sensor that will not allow the burner to fully kick
    on if thhe fan is not turning.   Thats my first guess anyway...

    re:.26  Thanks, Steve.  I was finally able to get our carpenter to come
    over yesterday and he put in some aluminum duct straight up to the roof
    with a plastic vent that is supposedly designed for roof venting.  This
    should be a real improvement because, in addition to being a straight
    run, it is also a much shorter run.  Only time will tell how this does
    when we get snow on the roof, etc.  Since he is also a roofer, I am
    hoping that he did an adequate job of sealing the opening.  Do you
    think it would be worth it to throw some insulation around the pipe
    (it is about a 5' run)?  Thanks.
    
    	/jeff

Yes, insulate the duct.  It will help reduce icing in the winter.

			Steve

	There are several references to the problem I am seeing with
	our gas dryer in this string, but...I probably just don't get
	it if the answer is there.  I'd appreciate some help.

    	We have a Kenmore gas dryer which is about 10 yrs old.  It has
	developed a problem which has been described in here but I'm
	still not sure what to do to resolve it.

	When turned on the first time, the ignitor will glow and the burner
	kicks on.  The flame stays on for about 2 1/2 minutes and then shuts
	off.  Everything seems to work fine to this point as the dryer is
	heated up and the temp sensors shut the burner down for awhile.

	However when the ignitor cycle starts again, it will glow for about
	15 seconds, then shut down with no flame.  This process is then
	repeated about every minute thereafter, but the burner fails to
	kick-in.  While the ignitor is glowing, I can hear a "grinding"
	noise which appears to be coming from the gas valve area.  This
	"grinding" does not happen on the initial, successful ignition.

	I have checked the gas supply and vent.  All is fine there.
	It WILL work without fail the first time (i.e. if it is cool)
	but not thereafter.  This leads me to assume it is temperature
	related.

	I am assuming that it may be the "temperature" or "flame" sensor
	just to the side of where the flame would be.  It appears to be
	of the photocell variety since there is a window into the flame 
	area from it.  I have cleaned the window, vacuumed the whole area,
	and checked all connections.

	Does it sound like it would be a good risk to just replace the
	flame sensor or should I bite the bullet and call in a repair
	person?

	Any help appreciated.

							Mark

    If you go the the Sears part store on Otis st. in Northboro Ma.
    And it is a good day they will sometimes help you diag the problem.
    They also (at times) will let you read the repair manuals at no
    cost.    Does sound like a thermostat...

I heat my house with propane, which flows from the tank to a regulator (?)
on the side of the house through some buried flexible copper tubing.

Last fall we had a leak in the tubing that we traced to the fact that there
was leaky (buried!) fitting.

The gas guy said that if we replaced the tubing, a better way would be to
use bury flexible plastic tubing, surrounded (I think he said) by sand.

Can anyone describe how this should be done/if it should be done? 
It probably would be uncool to have another leak, particulaly in the winter.

BTW, the house is in Windham, NH

bob

    
    
    Rep .67  Bob
    
    >>>Can anyone describe how this should be done/if it should be done?
    
      
      My whole house is propane driven. When they installed the system 
     they dug a four to five foot deep trench then back filled with 6"
     of "builders" sand. They used flexible 3/4" copper pipe as the feed
     line. They then backfilled the trench with 12" or so of the sand
     and then filled the trench with what they had dug out. The gas/
     plumbing inspector was watching and ok'd the installation.
    
    
    	-mike
    

Thanks Mike

This sounds like a reasonable way to do it.

Only problem is that digging a 4-5' deep trench requires dynamite.

    
    
    Rep .69  Bob
    
    >>>Only problem is that digging a 4-5' deep trench requires dynamite.
    
      Just remember to turn off the gas first!!!  ;-)
    
    
    	-mike
    

    
    	Sorry if this has been asked before (too many replies to go thru),
    but does anyone know if in fact gas dryers are more economical to run
    than electric ones (220V)?.  We're moving to a house in Shrewsbury 
    which has the laundry in the second floor.  It doesn't have a gas
    hookup.  We presently own a gas 3 year old gas dryer which works very
    well.  I'm trying to decide if we should pay for a plummer to run a
    line from the basement up to the 2nd floor (maybe lotsa $$$) or to just
    sell our current dryer and buy an electric one.
    
    	I figure we could only hope to recoup 1/2 the cost of the gas dryer
    plus the cost of the new electric one would put us down $200.  Now, if
    I can get a plummer to install the gas line to the 2nd floor (and
    hookup) the dryer for $250, maybe it could be a wash if indeed gas 
    dryers are cheaper to run than electric ones.
    
    	Any thoughts or suggestions?
    
    Luis

Depends on the cost of the electric and gas in your area - but I think the 
general answer is yes. 

bjm

    I have never seen a case (except maybe in Nevada) where a gas dryer
    wasn't a whole lot cheaper to run than an electric one.
    
    				Steve

Here in Colorado Springs they advertise the energy cost difference for
dryers as 3 to 1 (in favor of gas, of course).  Keep in mind that our
electricity is very cheap here compared to the rest of the country.

Also, if you decide in favor of electric, look into whether you can convert
your current gas dryer to electric.  I have heard of conversion kits for
electric->gas, don't know if the reverse kits exist.

    Conversion kits?  I've never heard of this - seems implausible, knowing 
    how the dryers are constructed.
    
    				Steve

    	I'm still not sure I believe this. I've had a gas dryer the last 6
    years but always had electric before that. I also use someone else's
    electric dryer from time to time these days. It takes my gas dryer
    twice as long to dry the clothes. I basically have to run them through
    2 full "more dry" cycles, for a total time of about an hour and a half,
    to dry them. Electrics I've used do it in half the time. This dryer has
    been fiddled with, cleaned, and adjusted, but it has never worked as
    well or consistently as electric dryers I've had.

I've had both gas and electric dryers.  My current gas dryer (8 years old)
is just as fast as the electrics and costs a LOT less to operate.

				Steve

    
         Gotta agree.  Never saw any increase in drying time after the
    switch to gas, but saw a huge drop in utility costs (even with the
    cheap electricity in Colorado Springs).
    
                                      Greg

    
    I have to agree to.  My gas dryer (kenmore) is very quick.  I've used
    electric (in appartments) and they were alot slower - but I think that
    was due to the landloard wanting to get more quarters out of you :-)
    
    My gas dryer is the large capacity, I will put in 8-10 pairs of levis
    and they are all dry in 40min.  Whites are done in 25, and towles in 30
    
    

    I was just looking at a graph in Popular Science this morning (waiting 
    in the doc's office, y'know?) that should electric to be over 2 times
    more expensive than gas or oil.
    
    Edd Cote