Conference 7.286::home_work

"half a truckful" isn't a very specific amount... but if you don't mind paying, 
give Casacelli Trucking a call (they're in Hudson). They'll do it; all you have 
to find out is whether they'll do it for what you want to pay.

-Scott

All of the local free papers around here (wayland) have ads every week from
people who do just that.  Check out some of these papers.

--ed/

    Renting a dumpster seems to be the accepted way of doing it.  One
    of the small bin jobs is about $70, I think.  The suggestion in
    .2 of finding some guy who advertises rubbish-hauling may be cheaper,
    worth investigating.
    
    Steve

    I rent a 3 yard unit from the folks in Hudson. I'm 4.5 miles from
    their office and they charged $25 to deliver ~$8 per week and then
    they charge whatever the going rate is to dump it.
    
    The reason I say whatever the going rate is that towns are changing
    the way charges are billed. The rate went from $9 to $10.50 and
    floats above that. i haven't gotten my latest bill yet.
    
    I'd haul .0 but please consider this. I have to pay charges listed
    above, put gas in the pickup, drive to maynard and back as well
    as load and unload the pickup. The best roundtrip/load time to Maynard
    was 2 hours with my 15 year old helping.
    
    If Casselli would handle the job the total cost would be ~$70 and
    you load the dumpster. The choice is yours.
    
    Howard

    Keven mack out of Clinton hauled away a truck full for us at $30.
    I dont have his number but I tracked him down though a wrong number
    that happended to be his brother.

    RE .6     Remember that Clinton has a DUMP. When I lived in Hudson
    and we had a DUMP I could haul it for a lot less too.
    
    The price is till the same ---- just the fees charged to do business
    have gone up.
    
    Howard who_likes_to_help_folks_that_don't_have_a_truck

    
    Thanks for all your suggestions. I found a friend with a pickup
    truck from a town with a dump that will help me out.  
    
    I did find an ad in Action Unlimited (one of the local rags). The ad
    was listed under Home Services in the classified section, for rubbish
    removal "all home and yard debris for $20-40 a dump truck load".  His
    number: 443-6010. 

    
    Joanne

    I'm reshingling my roof, and have the problem of getting rid of
    the old shingles.  The local dump won't take building materials,
    so I've got to rent a dumpster.  For your reference (and
    depression, if you're thinking of renting one too), here's
    some prices for the 117/495 area, probably comparable to other
    places:
    
    $25/week to rent a "roll-off" dumpster; pretty standard.
    $80 to $185 to haul it to the dump; depends on which dump
      the truck goes to and where the company is relative to your house.
    $90 to 110 per ton to put it in the dump (that's what the
      dump charges to accept the stuff).
    
    If you're contemplating a renovation project, be sure to allow plenty
    of money for rubbish removal.

    The dumpster arrived yesterday morning, a 20 cubic yard model.
    I had to give the guy a $2,000 deposit up front.  Presumably
    they will take their charges and the dump fees out of that, then
    refund the balance (if there is any) at the end.
    Final numbers:
    	$25/week rent
    	$40 delivery/drop-off charge
    	$110 trucking charge each time it's dumped
    	Dump fee "as charged" (somewhere around $100/ton, probably)
    
    It is probably going to cost me more to get rid of the old shingles
    than it is to buy the new shingles!

    Geez, You could have bought an old pick em up truck for that price
    and thrown the truck away with the load!
    
    

    The problem with building materials and especially shingles is that
    many local dumps WON'T take them. I'm pretty sure the city of Worcester
    and the town of Berlin will not accept this stuff. Fortunately my local
    dump will, but I'm not telling you where I live for fear that when I
    leave the house in the morning (or when I get out of work) I'll find
    the back of my truck filled with junk! :-) 
    
    P.S. P. Gransewicz, if you tell them where I live, I'll dump it
    in your yard! :-)

    Charly

The City of Worcester's dump is closed for all practical reasons, except
to city trucks.  They do have a pickup service for picking up large
items such as tires, fridge's, other large objects, but be prepared to wait
at least a month, as they are backlogged severly.

    Re: .3
    
    Now Charly, you (hint==>)silver-tongued devil, would I do that to
    you and risk losing all your help this summer ;-) ???
    By the way, what are you doing here?  Get to work on that addition!
    It's taking as long as my bathroom!!!
    
    its-almost-done-Phil

    I rented a dumpster a few weeks ago to haul away some building
    material.  It cost me $263.00 total.
    
    	25.00  Rental for 1 week.
        85.00  To haul it away.
       153.00  Dump charge.
    
    I didn't have to give a deposit.  I was billed at the end of the
    month.  I don't remember how many yards it was, but it was about
    6 X 15 X 6.
    
    The dump charge is by the ton ($75.00 per ton).  I had a little
    over two tons.
    
    I used John J Sappet and Son Inc. out of Bolton.
    
    Many of the others I called wanted me to pile it my yard and when
    I was done to give them a call and they would come give me a price
    for taking it away.  There charges would include dump charge, pick-up
    and labor charge.
    
    Steve
    
    

    re: .6
    
    Sappet seems to be the best deal I can find.  I need a dumpster
    for about 40 yards.  The largest one I found was 30 yards.
    Sappet was better because they have no delivery fee and they
    have no minimum.  BFI has a $75 delivery fee and $600 minimum.
    Casaceli has a $30 delivery fee and $490 minimum.  These prices
    are for Marlboro.
    
    
    Mark

    Funny - Sappett quoted me $110/ton dump fee and an $80 delivery
    charge, or thereabouts.  And I live about three miles from him!
    
    I ended up with Truk-Away in Bolyston.  The dumpster is about full,
    so pretty soon I'll know what the dump fee really is.

    
    The dump fee also depends on the nearest dup to you.  Different
    dumps have different fees.  Sappet just charges you what they are
    charged (they supply you with the dump reciept).  I live in Fitchburg
    so they quoted me Fitchburg's rate.
    
    Steve
    

    re: .9
    
    Right, Sappet is charging me the going rate for the Marlboro
    transfer station.
    
   
    Mark
    

    Some might think this a silly question, but here goes. Is there
    any place in the Arlington area where one can dispose of rocks?
    Our yard isn't big enough to discreetly hide them, short of just
    plain burying them. The town yard won't take them, and Arlington
    doesn't have a landfill that I know of.
    
    Also, where to dispose of building materials, such as panelling
    (You know, the kind that should never have been installed in the
    first place). Will travel if necessary, but need to know where to
    put the stuff before I start removing it. Thanks.

    You know, I had a similar question for the town of Shirley, MA,
    only it was household "toxic" materials; ie., paint thinner, motor
    oil, antifreeze, etc.  Got such responses as "...install 55 gal
    drum...".  Then call health board, etc.  Zip heads in local government!
    
    Try calling your local Board of Health, they will probably refer
    you to some Board of Something who can answer your question.
    
    Dwight

    For the rocks, sometimes you see signs along the road saying "Clean
    Fill Wanted."  That might be your best bet for those, unless you
    have a friend in the country with 100 acres out back.
    
    For the building materials, see the "Dumpster Prices" note....
    Nobody wants the stuff, not even dumps.
    You could get rid of the rocks via dumpster too, but since they
    charge by the ton they would end up being pretty expensive rocks.
    Are they flat?  Maybe somebody wants stone wall material.

    West Boylston and Sterling recently held a "Hazardous Waste Disposal
    Day" that was put on by the towns Fire Dept. in conjunction with
    someone from the state (Mass) DEQE. They would take any toxic materials
    up to a certain amount (5 gallons I think) and would dispose of
    it properly. Check with your local fire dept, and see if they are
    planning on holding a Hazardous Waste Day.
    
    Mark

    some people will also haul away the building materials for the salvage
    value and if you are lucky help you tear it down.

When I read this note long ago, I didn't think too much about the problem of
disposal.  Now I've got a BIG one!!!

I want to put on a new roof and I'm faced with getting rid of the shingles.  The
first place I called quoted me $400 for unlimited use of a 10 yard container.  I
thought that was incredibly expensive.  Then I called another place which said
they only give out 20 yard containers for roofs and for one my size (I extimate
around 20 squares), he told me the following:

	$40 delivery
	$24 per week
       $140 to haul it away
        $95 per ton to dump it (he said 20 squares weighs 5-8 tons but that
	    sounds high to me)

even if I only have 4 tons of junk, that's something like $600!!!!

that makes the $400 sound like a REAL bargain.

there was a comment in .1 about someone in Hudson but it didn't really give a
business name.  Could someone supply one?  Is there reasonable price for all
this?

-mark

    Yup, it is $$$ in a big way.  There's another note in this file
    someplace where I recount my own tale of woe.  In my case the
    final bill was somewhere around $1350.  That got rid of the remains
    of my old porch, 37 squares of old shingles in two layers from the
    roof, and the plaster from the living room ceiling.  I used
    Truk-Away in Boylston.  The real killer is the dump fees; the
    other charges seem to be roughly the same, give or take, for most 
    companies and compared to the dump fees for 10 or 12 tons of
    junk the rental and hauling fees are pretty insignificant.  The dump 
    fees vary from dump to dump, your only hope is to find some company 
    that has access to a cheap dump.

    re: .10
    
    Most roofing shingles are rated for weight per square:  225 to 280
    pounds per square is typical (20 to 30 year warranty).  Typically,
    three or four bundles per square, not two.
    
    Randy
    

    We just went through the exact same thing last week.  What it
    boiled down to is that all depends where you live.  It's my
    understanding that they dump in your town (if possible) and
    pass on the rate the dump sets to you.  Also, the closer the
    dumpster place is to you, the cheaper the delivery fee.
    
    For Sterling, we found George Kristoff (in Sterling) to be
    the least expensive followed by Truk-Away.  One of the people
    working on our house had a semi-horror story about Truk-Away.
    They had stripped a roof and found asbestos shingles, told
    Truk-Away not to use Marlboro since they couldn't accept it.
    Guess Truk-Away ignored them, dumped it, then had to reload
    it and send it to Maine.  They're trying to make the customer
    eat the cost of dumping it twice and reloading it in between.
    Final bill of $1600.  On the positive side, we used Truk-Away
    since we needed the dumpster the next morning and George didn't
    have anything and we had no problems with them.

    We were told that the dumps don't actually weigh the
    contents, they go by the size of the container, so
    try not to get one bigger then you'll actually need.
    We ended up with a little left over that we'll take
    ourselves - saved $40 off the dumping fee by getting
    a 20 as opposed to a 30 (Sterling charges $4/cu. yd.).
    

    
    
    	If you know someone in Sterling that has a dump permit you could
    get rid of it there. I have dumped everything under the sun and
    the guy does not care.
    
    	-Steve-
    

    Re. 10 
    
    I think the weight of the new fiberglass based shingles is LESS then
    the old asphalt/felt based shingles that most people are removing
    now-a-days. So comparing the weight of your new bundles may not reflect
    the true weight of the old shingles. 

    Charly (Sterling? Where's that? :-) )

    Plus, in addition to what Charly said, maybe you know what's
    under what shows, but we didn't so there was no way to even
    attempt to figure weight.  We found one course of cedar, one
    of tabs and one of the diamond shaped ones (whatever they're
    called).  Plus, we had to replace wood.
    
    We didn't use a dumpster for this job but instead used a friend's
    dump truck and made multiple trips to the dump as it was stripped.
    Don't know if it'd be cheaper or not if you had to pay for the
    dump truck but we did save dumping fees.
    

    Where do I "safely dispose" of propane gas canisters/tanks, as the
    label instructs?  Is the town dump OK?

	When I had to get rid of one, I called the Fire Department.  They
said to empty what's left in the tank, outside away from any buildings.  Then
remove the valve and set it out with the trash.

Brad.

    Oops.  Guess I wasn't clear.  The tanks I'm referring to are the little
    jobbies that I use with a propane torch or cookstove, etc.  The ones I
    have do not have a valve, as I understand the term.

        They probably have some sort of valve where you hook them up
        to the appliance (perhaps like a tire valve), unless they are
        the one-shot, one-use kind that once installed cannot be taken
        off and then hooked up again later (some camping stoves use
        the one-shot kind).  The one-shots are no problem -- once they
        run out, you remove them, and there's no way for any gas to
        be trapped inside.  The other kind need to be emptied, then
        the valve can usually be removed, e.g., with a tire valve chuck
        or similar tool.
        
        Tom

    
    
    	Does anyone know where you can dump building materials in the
    Lunenburg Leominster area ? I live in Lunenburg and our dump will
    not accept any building materials. I would like to take it myself
    and not hire a dumpster or someone else to haul it away.
    
    	-Steve-
    

What kind of materials are your speaking of, that the dump won't take?  I live 
in Lunenburg, too, and will be having some work done next spring.  I'd hate to 
be caught by surprise.

						     
							- JP

    
    
    	Lunenburg and most all dumps in Mass do not except building
    materials. I have been turned down at Lunenburg dump as an example
    
    	wood sheetrock shingles tarpaper ect.....
    
    
    	NO BUILDING MATERIALS AT ALL !!!!!!!! Only trash !
    
    -Steve-
    

    The Townsend dump takes building materials and doesn't check for
    dump stickers.
    
    (I'm only stating 2 facts, I'm not telling you to go dump them there.)
    

    The rule seems to be a bit stringent, considering that glass bottles
    and tin cans will not decompose as readily as sheetrock and wood.
    Can you imagine if they decided not to accept those either?

re Note 1732.4 by TOLKIN::GUERRA:

>     The rule seems to be a bit stringent, considering that glass bottles
>     and tin cans will not decompose as readily as sheetrock and wood.

They are trying to limit the volume with a rule that hits mostly people whom
the rule-makers think can find alternate solutions.  Many town dumps are
getting filled up, and new ones are not being approved, so limiting voluminous
dumping lengthens the life of the dump.

(Of course, that same rule will inevitably lead to more indiscriminate and
illegal dumping.)

Bob

    
    
    	But what about an answer to the base note ??
    

    
    
    	the only answer seems to be to rent a dumpster for a period
    of time if your town doesn't accept building materials. 
    
    
    
    

    re .7
    
    	Then were do the people that rent out the dumpsters dump
    it ? I don't want to pay $350 for a dumpster when I have a truck
    that can haul it away. 
    
    	-Steve-
    

    I think the town of Leominster accepts building materials at their
    dump - for a fee of about $100/ton.  Dumpster haulers go to places
    like that; they have to pay for the privilege of dumping.  If you
    hauled your own stuff you'd have to pay the same fees, assuming
    they allowed you to dump at any price.  The cost of renting a dumpster
    really isn't in the rental or trucking, it's the dump fees, and
    unless you can find a "free" dump that takes building materals (which 
    you probably can't unless you are a resident of a VERY limited number 
    of towns), you'll have to pay the dump fees whether you rent a
    dumpster or haul it yourself.
    Check out some other note in this file about dumpsters.  As I recall,
    when I rented a 20-yard dumpster the trucking was about $150, the
    rental was $25/week, and the dump fees were about $1200.  If I had
    made approximately 50 trips in my pickup truck and driven a total
    of about 2000 miles I could have saved maybe $300 by hauling myself,
    totally ignoring my own cost of driving and the incredible amount
    of aggravation; by any rational measurement it would have cost me
    more to do it myself.
    All this assumes you can't find a "free" dump, but these days there
    just aren't any dumps left that allow free access to anybody who
    comes driving in.  Cities and towns don't want your trash any more
    than you do.
    

    
    
    
    	I called the Leominster transfer station this morning and they
    said anyone can dump there. You get a permit and pay $25.67 per
    ton for normal trash and $110.00 per ton for building materials.
    
    	-Steve-
    

    re: .9
    	If you're going to trash your entire house, why not burn it?
    I gutted an entire room, and the lath, plaster and framing members made
    for two trips to the dump in a pickup truck.
        Let's see, 10 rooms; 20 trips for the entire house?
    Maybe I wasn't watching closely enough when they re-roofed across
    the street, but I didn't see a dumpster out there.  Am I missing
    something here?  Nashua, NH lets residents dump building materials
    and I purchased a few garbage cans to keep the stuff from spilling
    all over town and found the system quite workable.
        When I do my roof, how many truck loads should I figure on having
    to haul?  I want to make sure I do it before they close our landfill.
    
    -Bob

    Re: .11
    I had:
    	37 squares of shingles, x 2 layers, = ~ 15,000 pounds.
        Scrap from replacing boards on approximately 1/4 of the roof deck.
    	1,000 square feet of old porch floor, plus some framing from it.
    	plaster from 2 walls, + lath and plaster from a 14' x 19' ceiling.

    It all added up to two 20-yard dumpster loads, FULL.
        
    With shingles, if bulk doesn't get you the weight may.  They
    are unbelievably heavy.

I got rid of all my shingles last week!  I had them removed by John O'Malley
from Clinton for $80 (about 3 yards worth).  They were all stacked up in a neat
pile and he loaded them and hauled them away.  I think his rate for normal
construction materials is $60.  A bargain at either rate!

-mark

    In regards to a note in the "FOR SALE" section
    1666.39 by VACANT::MCKINLEY.
    
    Just out of curiosity, how will the barn be torn down and what are
    you going to do with all the trash. I live in Lunenburg and a house
    burned down last year and the people were charged $10,000 by the
    town to be able to dump the remains. As it turned out there was
    a special town meeting to vote on not charging the women as she
    could not afford it, she won.
    
    	-Steve-
    

    Maybe I can shed some light on the subject of dumping in the town
    of Southampton. I live in the next town, Westfield, near the town
    line with Southampton. The town runs a small landfill but has room
    to expand, this is farm country. The remains of the barn will be
    excepted at the landfill. The townies only pay a 25/year fee for
     the use of the landfill, and almost anything goes, 'cept hazard
    waste.
    
    The man that runs the landfill is good friend of my family's.
    
    Jim   

    RE: how to dispose of the barn

    The owner was considering knocking it down and hauling away the
    remains, knocking it down and using the remains in the fireplace, or
    burning it down (with the fire department present).  The barn is just
    made of wood and slate, so it may not produce as much debris as the
    house mentioned in .0.  There probably won't even be any slate left. :-)

    ---Phil

      >>burning it down (with the fire department present)<<
    
      I don't know if they would allow this to be done but it's an
    interesting idea.  What the owner could do instead is to offer the
    barn to the fire department to use for training.  I've seen this
    done in the south.  The would ignite the place and have the 'new'
    firefighters put it out.  They would let the place dry for a few
    days and do it again.  Just tell them that when they are done to
    burn it completely down.  I don't know if they would go for the
    idea but they might really appreciate it.
    
    -Jim
    

    I have heard of someone who got *talked* into changing his home
    roof from slate to asphalt. He showed up to find the roofers
    *carefully* taking off the slate and packing it *carefully*
    in crates.
    
    I suggest that you contact someone in the demolishing business
    and see if they are interested. It certainly can't hurt to make
    a phone call, and might be worth something. Send me 20% please!
    :^)

>    barn to the fire department to use for training.  I've seen this
>    done in the south.  The would ignite the place and have the 'new'
>    firefighters put it out.  They would let the place dry for a few
>    days and do it again.  Just tell them that when they are done to
>    burn it completely down.  I don't know if they would go for the
>    idea but they might really appreciate it.
    
    This idea isn't done in just the south, it's also done up here.
    I've personally been involved in just this type of training exercise,
    last time was just a few weeks ago in Boxborough, MA.  Class room
    instruction is one thing, but to actually go into a burning building
    that's charged with smoke is something else!!  Am I totally crazy??
    Not if it's your house that we come to save some night!  (I can
    hear it now...  "Must have been that crazy DIYer electrician again.
    Tim, I told you not to wire that stove using 14/2 and a spare 100
    amp. breaker that you had just sitting around!")
    
    As for letting it dry out for a few days, that's not necessary.
    Only a few gallons of water (less then 20 in most cases) are actually
    used to knock the fire down, and most of that is instantly turned
    into steam.  Once the fire is knocked down, the team backs out and
    another fire is lit for the next group.  When the building is judged
    to be no longer safe for entry, everyone is pulled out and the fires
    are allowed to consume what's left.  What remains when the fire is
    out is just plowed over and buried.
    
    Jim

Re .-1
Adjacent to the parking lot of Caldor's in Westboro there was a building that 
was used for the same purpose a few years ago. Every few nights there would be 
a fire there which the firefighters would practice on. This went on over a 
period of a couple of weeks, until there was nothing left.

Dave

    Getting back to the barn itself...
    
    Isn't there some company/group of people that will dismantle old
    barns and reassemble them some place else??  I seem to remember
    some discussion of this in this notes file some time ago.
    
    Just think, you may get someone who will pay you to remove it!!
    
    Cheers,
    jeff
    

    Yes, Richard(? Norman? Harold?) Babcock in Hancock, Mass., takes
    apart old barns and rebuilds them as houses (or barns) for people.
    He might be interested in it.

re: .8
>    Yes, Richard(? Norman? Harold?) Babcock in Hancock, Mass., takes
>    apart old barns and rebuilds them as houses (or barns) for people.

    The structure of the barn is not sound enough to bother taking down to
    rebuild.

    Thanks for the suggestion, though.

    ---Phil

    Does anyone have, or know where I can get a copy of Chapter Five
    of the Massachusetts general laws regarding onsite waste disposal
    (septic) systems?
    
    I have the opportunity to buy a septic system design from the former
    owner of a house lot that I purchased. The lot has a current valid
    perc test that is due to expire this summer.  I want to submit a
    design plan to the board of health in order to extend the period
    in which I can install a waste disposal system.
    
    The only problem is that the design was done for a perc test that
    was done in 1983, and has since expired.  Both percs were done in
    practically the same area, and border each other, i.e. the test
    holes almost touch.  It would seem like you could design a system
    off of the first set of test borings.
    
    I need to know what is legal though, as the town (Petersham) is very 
    stringent about such things, and in their reactionary zealousness,
    they often try everything and anything to slow development.

    			Thanks in advance
    
    

    Call the health department.  I wouldn't waste my time and energy
    trying to decode the law, when your interpretation doesn't matter
    anyway... the health agent's does!
    
    Or if you're afraid of what he/she will say, call the person who
    made the septic plan.  Those who practice have a lot of insight
    into requirements.  Maybe they can give you advance warning.
    
    Elaine
    
    ... sensitive about septic systems...
    

    Many Health departments, especially in small towns like
    Petersham do not know the law all that well.  I think that
    you could negotiate from a position of strength if you
    familiarize yourself with the rules/laws first.
    
    You can look these up in practically any library. (Mass Gen Laws)
    Most of the books might seem outdated so be sure to look at the
    updates, usually in the back of the binder.
    
    Good Luck
    

    How do I get rid of an asbestos pannel which is in my basement?
    
    I heard it is helth hazardous material and that I should dispose
    of it as soon as possible.  Any hints??
    
    Thanks

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    For what it's worth ...

    I just brought the equivalent of 2 - 3 bundles of standard asphalt
    roofing shingles to our s_m_a_l_l town dump.  (How small is it?  Well,
    except for a couple small hills of metal scrap and brush, everything is
    put in a large trash compactor.)  The guy running the dump told me the
    only place I can LEGALLY dump roofing shingles and sheetrock (in NH) is
    in Rochester.  Something about hazardous waste or some such.  When he
    saw my surprise/dismay/disbelief, he said if the town selectmen were
    here they wouldn't let me (he let me).  When I said, "Do the selectmen
    take their sheetrock scraps to Rochester (1 1/2 hour drive)?", he
    emphatically said yes, he knew of one that actually did.

    In these days (remember Time magazine's "man" of the year?  the
    earth?), and, even more, for those of us who lived (and preached)
    during the 70s' "ecology" years, maybe we should try a little extra to
    be conservative with our waste.  I know most of us, even me with my 1/2
    a square of shingles, don't throw away large amounts of this stuff,
    but ...

    
    What's wrong with sheetrock?
    
    

    There seems to be a general reluctance on the part of small town dumps
    to take anything that can't be burned or recycled.  The only thing one
    can do with sheetrock is put it in our already full landfills.  Then
    when it gets wet, the sheetrock dissolves into paper and loose gypsum. 
    The gypsum get into the water table, and so on.  Just one more
    component to the ever growing ground water pollution scram...
    
    
    John B.

    Does anyone know how to dispose of a matress and box spring? We
    recently took delivery of a new one and can't seen to get rid of
    the old one. We called Morgan Memorial (Goodwill) and they don't
    want them.
    
    Anyone know of any local Church/Charity (Acton/Maynard) that may
    be interested?
    
    MFM
    

    The Salvation Army is in Framingham.  They may take it.
    
    Most of the shelters for the homeless are in Boston, such as Kingston
    House (I worked on the renovations there) and Pine Street Inn. 
    There's also a shelter in Waltham, whose name escapes me at the
    moment.
    
    HTH,
    
    Bo

    I had the same problem.  I couldn't store the old mattress and springs
    in my little house, and no one wanted them (even the rubbish-pickup
    company - they won't even take away old car tires....when I had the new
    tires mounted the tire place hid the old ones in my trunk!  No what do
    I do??).  We ended up roping the matress and springs on the roof of my
    car and hauling them 2 hours away to my mother-in-laws house, where
    they replaced her even-older ones.  I don't know how she got rid of the
    old ones, though (except that rubbish pickup services where she lives
    will still take large stuff, even dead appliances, which ours won't
    take).
    
    /Charlotte
    
    I'm still stuck with the old tires, but at least they fit indoors!  I
    am really tempted to stick them back in the trunk next time I am
    heading past the place that put the new ones on the rims, and dump the
    old ones into their dumpster!  

    Where does your mother-in-law live. I may leave a little (queen-size)
    present for her {8^)....
    

    re .2
    
    Can't you just put the tires in a trash bag, close it up and leave
    it for trash pick up?
    
    /r
    

    all that 'trash' accumulating sounds like a 
    good excuse for a yard sale to me...
    
    :-)    :-)
    

    Re .2
    
    I'd bring the tires back to the place that sold you the new ones
    and raise hell about their hiding them in the trunk.  Then leave
    them there and drive off.
    
    ep

    You should move to Boston.  They'll take almost anything.  They just
    took a big pile of rotten wooden gutters from me.

    There are environmental reasons for not putting tires in landfills.
    Please call your city sanitation dept. and find out what the proper
    method of disposal is.

    
    I was able to dispose of a mattress at the Hudson/Stowe (MA) dump.
    I think they charged me a few bucks.  
    
    /Jeff

    re Hiding the tires in your trunk.
    
    I don't want to appear to be defending all the tire dealers out there
    but some of them charge to dispose of your old tires.  I'm sure that
    it's a standard practice to leave the old tires with the customer. 
    Perhaps that dealer either did not accept old tires or the sales person
    neglected to tell you if you had the option of paying them to keep the
    tires.  If you go back to the dealer you may find there's a sign on the
    wall explaining the policy (but maybe not).
    
    Last time I had my tires replaced I payed $5 per tire to have the
    dealer dispose of them.  

    The darn things are still in a pile taking up space in my garage (which
    my car won't fit in at the moment, there's so much junk in there). 
    They are too big to fit in the usual sort of trash bag I buy - although
    that is how I got rid of bunch of broken pieces of cement the rubbish
    pickup wouldn't take (had to replace the base for my mailbox).  I broke
    the lump of cement they wouldn't remove up with a sledgehammer, and put
    pieces of it into the trash bags over the next several weeks, until it
    was ALL GONE.  I'll have to do that trick again soon, too, since one of
    the other pieces of garage-space-occupying junk is an old water
    diverter from one of the downspouts, which crumbled away at the
    downspout end.
    
    For all of me, the tire outfit ought to roll the cost of getting rid of
    the old tires into the cost of putting on the new ones - what am I
    supposed to do with old tires??  The dump won't take them, the trash
    truck won't take them, and when I lived in an apartment, I didn't have
    anyplace to put them at all (when I did live in an apartment, I
    happened to NOTICE that they were trying to hide the old tires in the
    trunk, and made that tire place take them out and dispose of them).
    I mean, when my old stove broke down and couldn't be fixed anymore, I
    didn't mind paying the company that delivered the new one to haul out
    the old one - otherwise that would be in the garage too!  (My neighbor
    still has his last *two* dead waterheaters in his garage - can't get
    anyone to take them and neither one will fit in his compact car - not
    that the dump will take them anyhow.)
    
    Nobody would want the junk that is eating up my garage space; if it was
    worth anything I'd give it away (you HOME_WORK readers rid me of a
    bunch of junky but serviceable old furniture and an ancient lawnmower
    with a rebuilt engine recently).   If you DO happen to have a use for
    some old tires (maybe a swing for your kid?), or a large, heavy, ugly,
    crumbling piece of cement, send me mail: you can come fetch one or all
    of these garage-fillers anytime!
    
    I still say it is all part of the "trash conspiracy" - I get paranoid
    in wet weather, maybe!
    
    
    /Charlotte

    There's a humorous story in today's Boston Globe about trash recycling
    on Martha's Vineyard.  Story has a cartoon by Jules Feiffer and several
    quotes from Art Buchwald.  Living section, I think.
    
    	Marlene

    
    
      RE: old tires:  Yes, most places charge something to take them in
                      trade now.  If they still have any life in them, you
                      might want to stack them on your front lawn for a
                      couple of days with a sign that says' "FREE".
    
                      Lots of kids burn up their tires so fast they're
                      always looking for cheap replacements.
    
      RE: all the other junk:  There are people who advertise that do
                      take all sorts of stuff for a price.  If its that
                      bad it might be worth paying someone something to
                      haul it.
    
                                                Mark
    

    I finally found somebody who would haul away the old tires (which
    weren't good for anything involving actual driving anymore - otherwise
    they would still be on the car) for $4 each, so good riddance to the
    things!  (I hope they do something socially responsible with them, but I
    didn't inquire.)  I have to get my house in presentable condition
    quickly because my mother, one of the world's tidiest people, is coming
    for a visit in three weeks!   I will smash up the crumbling cement
    thing and get rid of it piecemeal when I get a chance.
    
    /Charlotte

    This note is to discuss the environmentally safe disposal of everyday
    household hazardous wastes, such as old/unused paint and stain,
    thinners and solvents, used motor oil, etc.
    
    This note may, and should, be used to announce "waste disposal days"
    that many cities and towns across the US hold to encourage people
    not to dump their household wastes in the weekly garbage pickup
    or take them to the dump.  
    
    More people would pitch in, if they were only aware........
    
    John

    This Saturday, October 21st, residents of Haverhill, MA are encouraged
    to dispose of their household wastes at the Wastewater Treatment
    Plant, 40 So. Porter St., between 10am and 2pm.
    
    Hope this helps.
    
    John  (who has 2 years worth of used motor oil to donate..... )

    It is my under standing that what ever amt. of oil you purchase
    in Mass stores, they have to accept that amt. back for recycling.
    What I do is put it in cleaned milk gal. jugs and giv it to a friend
    that burnes it in his waste oil furnace.
    
        I also save all my dirty paint thinner and let it settle and
    use it to clean my hands after painting or working on the car or
    truck.
    
    Lou Raymond

    How about cutting the plastic rings open from the six pack containers
    before you throw them out so birds don't entangle themselves on them 
    and choke.
    
    Peter

RE: < Note 3537.3 by PKENT::KENT "Peter Kent - SASE, 223-1933" >
                             -< Those dirty rings >-


I know this is off the subject a bit, but I recently witnessed exactly that. 
A seagull at a local pond, had one of those six-pack plastic rings around 
its neck.  We have been cutting thru the small opening where you put thumb 
and forefinger for carrying.  This is only a drop in the bucket, as not 
everyone will bother, but every little bit helps.

Jim

For those who are interested, this same topic is under discussion in another 
conference.  It is reachable at WASHDC::ENVIRONMENTAL_ISSUES.

NOTE # 58 in that conference is the Household Hazardous Waste note.

To add WASHDC::ENVIRONMENTAL_ISSUES conference to your notebook 
automatically, hit the KP7 key NOW.


Jim

    I believe there is a hazardous waste day in Billerica Ma. this Saturday
    (10/28/89)
    
    Chris D.

    I turned-in my household hazardous wastes at the wastewater treatment
    facility in Haverhill, MA last saturday and was amazed at how many
    people were there and how well organized the whole operation was.
    I had a 25 minute wait, but I didn't mind one bit.  It was a great
    feeling seeing how many people actually cared to go a little out
    of their way and feeling that I did my part.  And the workers and
    the facility were set up carefully and efficiently.
    
    John

    Westford Mass is having hazardous waste disposal this Saturday, Nov 18,
    at the Norman E Day school from 9:00 to 12:00, according to the local
    Westford Paper. The paper also suggested calling the selectman's office
    to setup a preferred time so that there won't be a long waiting line.
    

I have a large "concrete apron" that needs to be removed from the 
house.  I'd guess that it's about 40' x 10' x 2' high,  with
foundation-like walls around the sides, concrete pads on top,
and fist-sized rocks in the center.

We don't really WANT to do this ourselves,
but having read all the wonderful notes on Demolition, Concrete, and
Patios, we know how to.  (Also, we broke up a little by hand with
no difficulty).  (recommendations on people to do this for us are
welcome at note 2007.last, not here.)

The question is how to remove the debris if we get desperate enough
to do the breakup ourselves.  I'd love to have someone
come by and take it for use as fill, but I dont' want to wait a year
to find someone who wants it!  It's going to be pretty heavy stuff
(40x10x2' platform of concrete+rock) so any method that involves 
a high charge per ton is out.  Ideas?

--carrie

I just removed by hand about a 50 foot long  sidewalk in preparation 
for a room addition. I had a hard time finding someone to haul it off 
(even if I loaded it in the dumpster myself) since dried concrete weighs 
about 2 tons per cubic yard. Most of the roll-off dumpsters (the 
larger ones, like 30-40 cubic yards) are not hauled on 18 wheelers, 
and therefore have a weight limit (locally) of 10 tons. They all wanted 
to take my concrete in several loads, so they wouldn't get fined for 
being overloaded. They don't want the dumpster more than 1/3 full if 
you load heavy stuff like concrete, bricks, dirt, etc. I calculated
that between concrete and some block walls I had knocked down, that I
had about 7 tons, and convinced them it wouldn't overload the truck.
However, a large dumpster like that costs about $200, and you get to
keep it for 2 weeks. They also charge about $150 each time they empty
it for you if you have to have it dumped more than once. I'm sure
prices vary across the country, but that's what everyone here in
Phoenix charged. 


Arlan

    I'd like to get a discussion going  in this note on DIY projects which
    which recycle waste or discarded or used materials.  For instance, has
    anyone ever used old tires to landscape with?  Are there any techniques
    that one can use to make "landscaping tires" attractive.
    
    What about using old "jersey barriers" as a quick way to put up a
    retaining wall?
    
    Has anyone ever done any of this sort of creative work?
    
    Craig

    I've been told that a stack of tires makes for a great potato bed. 
    Place a tire on the ground and fill it with soil.  Plant the potato. 
    When the leaves start growing up, stack up another tire and add soil. 
    Keep going to get a stack of the desired height.  When it's time to
    harvest just knock off a layer and you'll have some nice spuds.  The
    potatoes will be bigger the futher down you go since the lower layers
    will have been growing longer, so you can have new potatoes at the top
    and mature ones at the bottom.

    An old landlord of mine was a real estate appraiser. He once came
    across a house where a retaining wall had been built out of old tires.
    The exposed surfaces were then painted gold.
    
    	Despite the peeling of the paint the owner was quite thrilled with
    his handiwork. (I don't think anyone else was...)

    
    
    
    You can use an old car tire on a rim to make a planter.  Make a circular
    cut in the tire right around one wall.  Remove the wall and discard.
    turn the remainder of the tire inside out (leaving it on the rim) and
    it creates a large bowl with the rim as the base.  Finish the outside
    with cement wash (concrete at slurry consistency, applied with a stiff
    whitewash brush) and paint it white.  Looks just like a stone planter.
    (You can add a recirculating pump and create a small garden fountain
    this way)
    
    I've seen tires used to form landscaping features, but unless it's
    done effectively, you don't get far from that "heap of old tires"
    effect.  One good way was a 3-d pyramid of tires filled with soil used for
    planting trailing plants, where the plants drooped down and hid the
    actual tires.  This was a temporary summer display and needs to be
    removed in winter.   It's a good way of putting height into a flat
    garden, and can also be used for creating well-drained raised beds
    using gravel-filled tires to form the base.
    
    Tires can be buried vertically to form retaining borders for gravel
    driveways.  (paint white).
    
    Cement-filled tires make good removeable post holders for volley
    ball nets, awnings etc.
    
    For retaining walls, where the tires are hidden, they make a cheap
    variation on the cement sandbag.  As you build the wall, fill each tire
    with concrete, then offset the next layer.  This allows you to face the
    wall with a fence of pressure treated lumber instead of using load
    bearing railroad ties.
    
    
    regards,
    
    C.
       
    
    

    Not sure on old tires, but Gypsonite is made of recycled material,
    and certain blown-in insulation is made from recycled newspaper.
    I thought I heard something about old tires being mixed in with paving
    material, but it may have been something else. (not exactly DIY, but
    a good way to get rid of them).
    
    John

    
    
    So if anyone wants to try something with the tires, just let
    me know.  You can take all you want.  Free!!!  yes.  And if
    you want 20+, i'll even deliver..........
    
    Mr Goodyear

If anyone needs a sailing buoy for any reason, take a tire on a rim, weld a
pipe so it extends through the center of the rim, attach some sort of weight
and an anchor chain to one end, add a piece of wood with a flag on the other
end.  Paint the thing for visibility.  Anchor can be some container filled with
cement, or some heavy metal object or almost anything.

Tire won't harm boats that bump into it.

-Mike

re .3:

Those tire planters look real tacky, even when they're as fancy as the one
that came with my house (it was cut in a zigzag).  Maybe if you painted
it gold...

More non-DIY tire recycling: I've read about a process to turn tires to
oil and the re-use of chopped-up tires in asphalt, but I think both
processes are still experimental.  Old tires are used to make soaker hoses,
and in some parts of the world, to make the soles of sandals.

    Obviously, your tire planter didn't look right---no pink flamingos with
    it!! ;-)
    
    Lynn
    

    The idea of building a retaining wall with tires and then hiding it
    with a fence of some sort, say a stock fence, sounds intriguing.
    
    Would you have to fill the tires with cement or could you just fill
    with soil or gravel.
    
    Nice ideas.

    
    It depends on whether the wall is load bearing.  If you have an
    unstable slope, prone to slippage or washout you might have to
    add some weight/reinforcement to the tires.  My thinking is that
    you use the tires to take any load, so I guess there's a possibility
    that load-bearing retaining walls are subject to building codes.
    
    I have a lot that has a very steep grade at the front and it's prone to
    washout.  I'd like to terrace it, but I don't want to buy and truck in
    a s***load of fieldstone to match the rest of the terracing. PTL 4x4's
    would be expensive, look unnatural and slab sided.  Concrete has
    similar drawbacks.
    
    So...  I'm thinking that I could maybe create low terrace retainers
    with the tires, regrade the lot and permanently hide the tires with a
    drystone wall.  The wall would be basically "leaning" against the
    tires, so I get away with using a relatively small amount of stone. The
    stone would partly come off the rest of the lot and partly be dug up in
    situe during the regrading.  It would also provide many cracks &
    crevices for planting. Having already put in some land drainage, I
    *know* there's plenty of rock under there.   I still have to do some
    research & thought on this - there may be many other unforseen
    negatives. (Like this being classified as illegal dumping rather than
    recycling.)
    
    Incidentally, one of the current uses of used tires is to stop
    landslips - they dump zillions of them on the slopes.
    
    regards,
    
    C.
    
    PS: I saw a neat way of recycling glass food jars in someone's basement
    workshop. The screw lids were nailed to the underside of the joists
    above his workbench and the jars filled with screws & nails.  All he
    had to do was look up for a particular size and reach up to unscrew the
    required jar. Neat utilisation of space & waste, but don't put them
    directly overhead.



    

    
    I've got a used toilet in the 'for sale, wanted note' that someone
    could use as a planter AND a birdbath ;-)! Interested?
    
    Steve B.

You can use an old bathtub as a shrine.

You can use an old toilet seat as a picture frame  -- great for pictures of
your ex-spouse or boss.

    I like the idea of hiding the tires with stone.  I need a wall that is
    about 4 feet high and 50 feet long.
    
    Anybody else have ideas for hiding the tires?  What about ivy?  What
    about the cement slurry that someone else mentioned in a previous note?

    re: a few back.
    
    	just dumping "zillions" of tires is a way of making a real mess.
    THe exposed tires collect water and serve as an excellent mosquito
    breeding ground.
    
    	There is one site in Canada that appears to be the dumping ground
    for the entire country. It covers many square *miles*. If it ever
    catches fire it would be an environmental disaster. Not only would the
    smoke cause tremendous air pollution, but the resulting runoff from the
    melted tires would have a severe inpact on soil and ground water.
    
    	If you get cable, you may have caught the "Beyond 2000" show that
    discussed using old tires as an ingredient in asphalt. Seems to work
    pretty good! They also discussed a plant designed to break down the old
    tires and recycle them. I don't remember all of the details, I think it
    was a break even proposition, however the savings in disposal costs
    etc... made it worth while. The plant is shut down now unfortunately.
    It seems that the owners were hoping for a small tax to be placed on
    tire sales (Canada) that would go to subsidize this plant. It sounded
    like a good deal: pay a dollar or so more per tire in tax, and have the
    disposal taken care of. Infortunately the tax bill did not pass and the
    recycling plant was not profitable enough without it.
    	Anyway... that was the impression I got from the show...
    
    
    					regards,
    					Mark

    Aren't tires considered a hazardous waste which is why many curbside
    garbage collection people won't pick them up anymore?
    
    If you go about burying these things underground or for retaining
    walls, you might have to dig these up later for "proper" disposal
    prior to selling your house.
    
    -al

    
    	Re: .15
    
    	Yes, that's exactly what I thought when I read the suggestion about
    using the old tires as a retaining wall.  I'm not 100% certain on this,
    but I think it is illegal to bury tires since the chemicals leach out
    and will foul the groundwater.
    
    							-craig

	    Tires can be cut into strips, with the right kind of tool,
	and these strips can be used to make door mats.  And we're 
	talking 'durable'!
	    Tires can be tied together and dumped in the ocean.  It
	seems the planktun etc. cling to it and little fishes make new
	homes there.  In a very few years, these tires become comunities
	for an abundance of sea life.
	    The problem is, there is so much TRASH dumped into the oceans.
	As this trash breaks down, it turns into silt.  This silt blocks
	much of the sunlight that should be getting through to the various
	forms of plant life.  The plants die off, or don't begin to grow
	(either way), and this impacts the whole food chain.  I bet the
	water smells pretty rancid, too.
	    And you wonder why whales are commiting suicide on the beaches?
	I think it's their version of a petition or a sit in.

					Tim

    
    
    
    .....So, who needs tires to get started on these projects??????
    
    
    For all you sportsmen......they make a great backstop for the
    target range.  You place then in a horse shoe shaped configuration.
    wire then together and add sand.  Good for 50cal.
    
    JD

    	I remember my father making swing seats out of old tires.  He cut away 
    a little more than 1/2 the tread but left the sides complete.  That left a
    tire that was full on the bottom and open at the top.  Turned inside
    out it made a very comfortable, secure childs swing.  Kids always fell 
    asleep while riding in these things.
    
    	Of course these days there'd be all sorts of safety and health
    issues.
    
    George

    What would one use to cut a tire?

    Re. several back on "tire fires"
    
    We live in Kingston, NH, not far from the infamous Tire Dump that
    Ernest Hunt "built".  Supposedly, there were over a *million* tires
    in that thing, and it caught fire about a year or two ago.  Actually,
    it was set on fire, allegedly by Hunt or a friend, just before a big
    reclamation project was to begin.  Real noxious fumes for a couple of
    days.  It made the national news.
    
    Greg B.

    
    RE 14
    
    >	just dumping "zillions" of tires is a way of making a real mess.
    > THe exposed tires collect water and serve as an excellent mosquito
    > breeding ground.
    
    Well, what do we currently do with the 260 million tires that are
    changed annually in the US!  ;-)
    
    You raise a good point, and one that has been documented by the EPA.
    In the case that I cited, the land erosion problem was severe and
    threatening homes and business, so using tires to stop the erosion
    was deemed a necessary evil.  I can only hope that they thought
    about the other environmental issues.
    
    By coincidence, this month's AAA magazine carries an article on scrap
    tyres.  It even mentions the doormat idea, which has already been
    turned into a commercial venture.  Seems that in NH tyres have to be
    shredded before being buried in the dumps, which implies that thay do
    not pose much of a toxic threat.  The real toxic threat comes from
    tiredump fires. One thing absent from the report was a mention of
    re-tread tires. Is there no market in the US for cheap re-treads?
    
    
    To address the aesthetic question of tire planters, I couldn't help but
    smile at the observations on how tacky they can appear - I've seen the
    worst them.   On the other end of the scale, I also once saw & liked a
    300-ft long nuclear submarine built entirely of used tires as a
    sculpture. One person's art is another's kitsch is another's tack. I
    had to go dig out the info on how to avoid the easily-acquired tacky
    look  (First - lose the rims and use a low plinth of stone, brick etc.
    Second, make a plain cut not a scalloped edge.  Third - avoid gold
    paint.)  
    
    I have made and used these for a stage set for the garden scene in
    "South Pacific".  The important thing is to make them look like
    something that they ain't.   We accomplished this by using cement
    applied with a thing called a tyrolean gun - basically a box with a
    rotating plastic blade that throws gobs of cement out, creating a
    roughcast finish.  It completely covers the tread, sidewalls and
    texture of the rubber and you end up with something that looks like
    cast concrete. (Use a cement mortar plasticiser for durability).
    
    You can stop there, but it's possible to disguise it even more. A quick
    spray of tomato fertiliser engourages mold & moss growth, quickly
    giving it a weathered appearance.  Alternatively, you can fake-marble
    or fake-granite it with paint (messy, but fun) etch designs while the
    cement is still wet, embed sea-shells etc, etc.
    
    Finally, use plenty of plants!  Trailing plants haning around the rim, 
    ground cover around the base & climbing the sides - so you just leave a
    suggestion of the shape.
    
    Regards,
    
    Colin
      
    
    
    
    
    

    
    	If you live in the Greater Maynard area, you might take a lookat
    the playground at the elementary school located off of rte. 117(next to
    the Dodge Dealer)  Most of the structures and swings incoroporate 
    tires very nicely.

     re .20 what to use to cut a tire?
    
    A good, SHARP, linoleum or carpet knife will do nicely, until you 
    try to cut a steel belt. 

re .22:

Not many people use retreads on their cars (people mistrust them).  Big truck
tires are very frequently retreaded.

The person who owned my house before me made a seal at the bottom of my
garage door from a couple pieces of tire tread.  Doesn't work well, but that's
the fault of the cruddy concrete.

-Mike

About a year ago, Sunset Magazine (the Western edition anyway) had an article
about a community in either New Mexico or Arizona which was based on
homes made from old tires.  If I remember correctly, each homeowner was 
subsidized by the state for using recycled materials, and since the whole
community used this method, the land was subsidized as well.

The homes were partially subterranean with only the front walls exposed.
It was done in fairly good taste.  The interior retaining walls were built
with tires as well.  The roofs were covered with tires, then dirt, then planted
with grass.  The insulation rating was so good that even on blazing days the
interiors stayed very cool, and vice versa in the winter.

Unfortunately, but I guess not suprisingly, there weren't gobs of people 
lining up to join the community.

Car tires are cheap enough that people aren't willing to use retreads,
but as Mike points out, large tires (for trucks, heavy equipment, etc.)
are often retreaded due to their higher replacement cost.

    Tires are not hazardous waste.   There are several projects in the Gulf
    of Mexico that intentionally dump tires (not to mention entire cars) to
    the bottom of the sea in big piles.   This creates nooks, crannies, and
    caves which encourage the breeding of many kinds of fish/shellfish.
    (Think of it as a clever way to increase the effective surface area of
     the sea bottom).
    
    Eventually marine growth and micro-organisms cover them and provide the
    beginnings of an entire food chain.

    Let me try to summarize the disscussion of use of tires for a retaining
    wall:
    
    1.	Tires are not hazardous waste.
    2.	Stack in overlapping layers.  Presumably tires will all be same
    	size.
    3.	Fill in the holes of each layer with:
    	a.	Cement
    	b.	Stone (I think that this would help drainage)
    	c.	Dirt
    4.	Hide the front
    	a.	With stone or something else cheap
    	b.	Splatter with cement gobs
    5.	Spray with tomato fertilizer and let it mold.
    6.	Cover top somehow with soil.
    7.	Plant plants liberally.
    
    
    QUESTIONS:
    
    a.	A conventional PT timber landscape wall uses deadman ties to keep
    the wall from bowing.  What would keep a tire wall from bowing?
    (Perchance driving a  steal rod down through at several places?)
    
    b.	If I splatter the tires with cement, how long will it stick?  Will
    I have to do it over again?
    
    c.	How would one cover the top with soil?  (Perchance bolt a piece of
    pressure treated along the leading edge of the top row. That would
    keep the dirt in.)
    
    Additional comments welcome.  I am really considering this.

    
    	Ok, you've all convinced me that buried tires aren't hazardous
    waste!  Thanks.
    
    							-craig

    I'd like some additional feedback on two new ideas related to a
    retaining wall constructed from tires.
    
    The first is that by attaching some sort of wire mesh to the front of
    the tires, it would be possible to "plaster" on a layer of cement.  The
    concern I have about this approach is that water coming through the
    gaps between the tires would destroy this facade.
    
    The second thought is to stack the tires in a cascading fashion where
    each successive layer is set back about 4 to 6 inches.  Cutting away
    the exposed portion of the sidewalls on the lower layer would make a
    well in each tire in which plants could be grown.
    
    Thoughts?  Opinions?  Wild Guffaws?
    
    Craig

    There is a couple building a home here in Colorado out of old tires
    filled with rammed earth apparently the couple is paid $2.00 apiece
    for the tire just to haul them away. I went by the site where the home
    is being built they are using wire mesh (chicken wire) attached to the
    tires as a base for a stucco finish. The portion I saw after the succo
    had been applied was impossible to tell from any other construction
    method the only exception was that the wall was 3' thick serious
    thermal mass. The only retaining wall I have seen built from tires
    had been planted with native grasses and scrub oak from a distance
    it was very attractive up close the grasses and shrubs did a acceptable
    job of hiding the tires. In this wall the soil been graded to cover
    almost all of the tires the slope angle was about 30 degrees I would
    think that a steeper slope would require something like rebar to hold
    it all together. The Victory garden show had a segment a few years?
    back showing a retaining wall made of tires it looked quite nice the
    trick it would seem is a cover planting that would hide the
    "structural" element of the wall.
    
    
    Another non-tire way of building a retaaining wall is rock filled wire
    cribbing these are very common around Colorado Springs and seem to hold
    up very well over time.
    
    
    -j
    

    
    Geeeee, $2 a tire......  Anybody want to try build
    a bunker?  FREE TIRES to build your heart out!!!!
    
    JD

The reason tires aren't allowed in landfills isn't that they're hazaradous
(in the traditional sense of chemical pollution), but because they have
the habit of rising to the top, where they are exposed to air and become
an eyesore and a fire hazard, and probably a nuisance with respect to
whatever the final use of the landfill may be.  Using them
structurally, where they are fastened in place, isn't as much as a
problem (though I'd still worry about fire).

I believe the physics is the same as the reason for rocks rising to the
topsoil in New England.  No, it's not your imagination; there's real 
physics behind it.  The smaller particles of dirt can travel down more easily,
effectively pushing larger objects, like tires and rocks, up.  Or at least,
so I've heard; I'll let the physicists out there debate this.

   Gary

    
    re - 1 
    
    It's called solifluction.  However, it's the result of frost (same
    thing as frost heave) only works on small matter and would not effect a
    landfill which is usually capped deeper than the frost line.
    
    regards,
    
    Colin
    

1)  Tires can't be incinerated -- they tend to bounce out when they are
thrown into the incinerator, and they emit serious pollutants if you
do manage to burn them.  Or so I've read.  I think that's a big reason why
they aren't wanted in curbside trash pickup.  

2)  The reason rocks rise to the surface is that frost raises the soil,
and when it subsides again, the smaller bits of soil can more easily 
drop down again -- big things need a much larger space underneath to
be able to drop down again, and are less likely to do it.  That's why
New England really does raise a crop of rocks.  I suspect that there's
more at work here than just frost heaves, or else sometime since the
last ice age, the boulders within 4 feet of the surface would have
finally all reached the top and I could stop picking rocks in my yard.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

    
    Scientific American actually published an article explaining the
    process in detail, not more than a few years ago.
    

    Here is a reference I came across that might be of interest to
    followers of this topic:
    
    Tim Knipe. "Mass Appeal: build beautiful, energy-efficient houses out
    of tires and aluminum cans for $20 per square foot!" _Mother Earth
    News_ (Oct-Nov 1991): p40-50.
    
    ABSTRACT: Architect Michale Reynolds recycles materials into the design
    of his houses, known as Earthships. He is noted for using old
    automobile tires, cans and mortar instead of bricks, and walls with
    concentrated mass for insulation.
    
    Yeah, right.
    
    John H.

Re: .41

The article lacked further details, as I recall.  You're a day too late, I
took that paper in for recycling this morning, so I can't look it up.

    I have a small amount of gasoline that I need to get rid of. What is
    the proper (environmentally safe and politically correct) method of
    disposal of bad gasoline? I think I might try a gas station that will
    take it.
    
    Steve B.
    

    I would mix it with my used oil and bring it to the local recycling
    center...not sure if this is a viable alternative for you though.
    
          Dean

>>                       <<< Note 3537.9 by ASDG::SBILL >>>
>>                            -< Gasoline disposal? >-

If it's a small amount,  how about just mixing it with a full tank of
gas in your car?  If it dilutes enough,  your car may not notice.

Garry

    What is a "small" amount?
    
    Edd

    
    Don't mix gas with recyled oil ! It will screw up the oil. Sometimes it's
    used to make recycled engine oil, sometimes it's used as a fuel,
    Sometimes I belive it is used as a lubricant. The recommended method
    for disposing of SMALL amounts of paints, paint thinners, and gas
    is to let it sit outside someplace away from sparks and flames and
    rain until it evaporates. In the case of paints, the solid material
    left at the bottom is not considered hazardous and can be mixed with
    your household trash. In the case of gasoline, it should evaporate 
    completely.
    
    
     Bob Paluses
    
    Sterling Recycling Committee
     

    Some places that take old oil (Exxon gas stations) have a device
    that checks for gas in your oil.  If there's gas, then they won't
    take it.
    
    RE: evaporating gas/paint thinner
    
    Isn't this considered bad?  I mean isn't that why gas stations now
    have those vapor recovery systems when you pump gas.  Surely the
    amount of gas that evaporates while filling your tank is very small
    yet the government figures they better not let it into the environment.
    
    -al

>                                                          Surely the
>    amount of gas that evaporates while filling your tank is very small
>    yet the government figures they better not let it into the environment.

It's not small when you multiply it by the number of times people get gas.

    When I said small I meant between a half and 3/4 of a gallon.
    
    Steve

    
    >  RE: evaporating gas/paint thinner
    > Isn't this considered bad?  I mean isn't that why gas stations now
    
     I guess you have to look at it in terms of acceptable "damage"? 
    Evaporation is probably the least damaging method available to most people.
    Even when it's burned as fuel, you create pollution. However. I would
    argue that the pollution that is created via burning or evaporation, is
    less damaging than dumping it into the ground where it could
    contaminate soil and/or water. No matter what you do with the stuff,
    it's gonna 'contaminate' something.  Ideally, you'd like to find
    somebody who takes the waste and reuses it. With motor oil, that's a
    little easier. I've also read that some places are starting to recycle
    anti-freeze. I don't know of any sources for old gasoline, so the next
    best solution is to dispose of it in such a way as to cause the least
    amount of damage and greatest degree of safety.
    
    The anti-evaporation devices at gas stations make sense, as
    noted by .-1 when you multiply all the fill ups each day and the
    evaporation leaked by each for no good purpose.
    
    
    As far as paint, I imgaine that the fumes evaporate whether you
    paint it onto something, or leave it in an open can. In the case of
    latex paints, I believe it's only water that's evaporating ?
    
    
     Bob

OK, what's the recommended way to get rid of old antifreeze?

We recently had a HAZ Waste recovery day in town.  Clean Harbors sent a brochure
about it.

Latex paint is the only kind you should let dry out.  When it is dried out,
it becomes non-hazardous waste, and can be disposed of normally.

Oil paint, gas, paint thinner, etc needs to be disposed of at a hazardous waste
disposal day (call your City/Town Hall for details).

Elaine

re: .20

Of course, this works only if you're a Merrimack resident.  I'm sure
that Nashua has a facility to accept spent antifreeze.

	    There is a biodegradable antifreeze on the market.  I don't
	know how evironmentally sound this stuff actually is, but it
	would have to be a whole lot friendlier than your glycol based
	varieties.  It's a step in the right direction, anyways.

				Tim

    Tim,
     The non toxic type antifreeze is not to be used in car radiators. It's
    mostely used in motorhomes and summer homes to keep the drains and
    pipes from freezing in the colder areas.
    
    Jim
    

The major problem with car antifreeze is that most people dump it all out
and refill with new antifreeze - this is wasteful, ecologically dangerous
and unnecessary.  The ethylene glycol doesn't "wear out", the solution just
gets dirty and the anticorrosion additives need replenishing.  Many service
shops now can do a cooling system flush and recharge which involves suctioning
out the old solution, filtering it to remove sediment, restoring additives
and a small amount of fresh glycol, and returning the solution to your car's
engine.  I had this done on my car a couple of years ago and was very pleased
with the result.

			Steve

    I've just finished putting up a border in my sons room and now have a
    five gallon pail nearly full of sizing and left-over/scrappedoff paste. 
    What type of hazard is this to: (septic systems, generic land,
    landfills etc...)
    
    ??
    
    						.dave.

I will be replacing my roof in the coming weeks and I was wondering
if any one has experience in estimating the size of the container
that is needed for the refuse. My roof is 1500 sqr ft and there are
two layers of shigles that will be removed. Thanks..


			John

    Get a roll off 30 cubic yard one. 
    
    Marc H.

    I suspect a 20-yard one would be more than adequate.  When we did
    our roof a few years ago (3700 square feet - we have a *lot* of
    porch roof!) we filled a 20-yard roll-off dumpster twice, but we
    also had to replace a lot of boards and took the opportunity to
    get rid of a lot of other stuff too.

    What is the fee for these containers? Are their restrictions on
    what can be placed in them along with weight restrictions? 
    
    Thanks in advance--
    
    Joe

    The rate varies somewhat with the company.  I think we paid, five
    years or so ago, about $100/ton + $100 per pickup, or something
    like that.  The price per ton depends on what the landfill they
    are using charges.  The pickup cost is in part a function of how 
    far the have to drive.  There may also have been a weekly rental 
    of about $25/week, I'm not sure.  
    All in all, it can get expensive.
    
    There are undoubtedly restrictions on what can be put in the
    containers - oil drums, old tires, etc. might be no-nos.  But
    you'd have to ask.  It probably depends on what the restrictions
    are at the landfill they use.
    
    When the company heard we we going to put shingles into the roll-off
    we rented, the largest they'd give us was a 20-yard one; anything
    else we might have possibly filled to the point of being too heavy.
    Again, that may vary with the company you use and the roads they
    need to travel over.

    I just had a guy over to estimate replacing my roof and he stated that
    the old stuff would take up about 4 pickup loads.
    
    That's for 1300sqft of roof with 2 layers of shingles on it.  We asked
    how much it would save if we took 'em off ourselves...(I had no
    intention of doing that but the wife had to ask:-)..$800 sounds good to
    me!
    
    /tb/

>    The rate varies somewhat with the company.

    They will also vary with the location of the job.
    The dumps in some areas will NOT accept "demolition waste", which
    includes old roofing, in at lest some cases.
    In these areas the old roofing must be trucked to a more distant
    landfill site that will accept it.  The cost of the added transportation 
    adds to the cost of the dumpster.

    
    if it's only going to be roofing waste then isn't there a company in
    N.E. that's recycling them into asphalt?   TOH ran a segment on this
    company for the Concord barn project. (i think anyway)
    
    Anyone remember?

    Just a reminder too - make sure you have something to cover the
    dumpster up when it rains.  Water ads lots of weight to a load that can
    be charged by the weight.

    
    I did my roof a few year ago and filled my old dump truck
    twice with shingles and some wood.   That was about a 1500sq' roof
    at about 6yards equivalent with one course of shingles.
    
       JD

    A quasi-related question:
    
    We have some fairly old tanks at our cabin in Maine and I wonder 
    if there are some stipulations about when propane tanks need to be 
    "retired?"
    
    Obviously badly rusted tanks can't be refilled.  Also, I seem to
    remember that the small ones (for BBQs) are dated.  Anything else?
    
    Chet
    
    

    RE: .4
    
    Most tanks are now owned by the propane company. They perform the
    periodic testing.....are yours owned by the company?
    
    Marc H.

    >>Most tanks are now owned by the propane company. They perform the
    >>    periodic testing.....are yours owned by the company?
    
    Nope.  They're mine.
    
    Chet

    
    
    Next time you have them filled, have them inspected and
    tested.  A wire brush and some paint would make them last
    somewhat longer.....
    
    jd

	Did anyone know that the City of Nashua allows you to dump
	one dumpster full free of charge when given a copy of your
	property tax bill?

	Did you also know that the city ordinance that allows that
	only allows it for owners of an owner occupied single
	family home?  I own an owner-occupied 2family home and
	even though I pay the same taxes, I don't get a free dumping!!!!

	Does anyone have any more info on this?  I'd like to read
	it before I complain to city hall ....

    How relevant are the figures for rental, hauling and dump fees which were
    entered since 1987?  I'll call around, but I like to have an idea of the
    going rate before I start, so I can laugh and hang up the phone at the
    rip offs...

Peter, I live in Millbury.  We have the incinerator there so rates may be
cheaper for me.

I rented one from Frank Rubbish in Millbury about a month ago.  It's $35 for a
4 cubic yard plus ~$14 for each load dumped (and that depends on what's being
dumped).

One thing I've noticed is rates increase when people offering rubbish, sewage
etc. services have to cross town lines.

/T

    Not exactly price, but a dumpster question none-the-less:
    How does one go about deciding what size to get? We replaced about 60
    double-hung sashes in our 3-family, all the doors in one apartment, and
    several rooms of walll-to-wall carpeting.  We called around for prices,
    but can't decide what size to get.  What would be your guesstimate? The
    other contents of the dumpster would be smallish items, like leftover
    wallpaper, carpet remnants, old linoleum, etc.  The doors and windows
    are the major room-taker-uppers.

    
    
    Actually, if you stack the doors and widows, they take up
    very little room compaired to chucking in trash...  The size
    is given in cubic ft., so just ball park about what size pile
    you'll make and go from there...   or just get the "Big one!"
    
    JD

    You might be able to get by with a smaller dumpster
    by trying to give away what you think no one wants.
    
    For example, a few years ago we resided our house and
    had LOTS of weather-beaten T-111 siding to dispose of.
    Just on a lark I advertised it in this conference as
    a freebe, being clear to state its condition.
    
    Almost all of it "went".  My guess is that someone
    will want those old windows and doors if the price
    is right.

Yup, recycle -- old doors and a few 2x4's are popular basement shelf material. 

								-- Chuck Newman 

    My husband and I tore down an 11 year old creosote railroad tie
    retainer wall.  We are replacing it with pressure-treated 6x6"
    landscaping timbers.
    
    Our problem is that we don't know how to dispose of the old railroad
    ties.  I have called a waste company and they would require having the
    railroad ties tested for the level of creosote and then it would cost
    about $500 to have them hauled away properly.  If the level of creosote
    is too high, they won't touch it.  There is about 25 pieces ranging 
    from 3' to 6'.
    
    Does anyone know how to dispose of this stuff and other yard waste?
    
    Thank you,
    
    Kathy
    
    

    why not bury it on the inside (dirt side) of the new wall ?
    
    
    May not be PC but it should hurt anything.
    
    Brian V                                  

If you what .1 suggests, you'll have hidden toxic waste on your property.
When you sell your house, you could get in trouble if you don't reveal its
presence.

>                     <<< Note 5631.0 by MROA::LIVINGSTON >>>
>                     -< How to dispose of railroad ties? >-

Do you deliver to So. NH?    
    

    	You can either check with your local dump, or if they're in any sort
    of usable condition, put an ad in here and in Classified_ads for
    *free* railroad ties.
    
    	A friend of mine used some as the base for a dog pen, so they may
    not have to be in the best of shape. It depends on what someone wants
    them for, but there are a number of uses which don't require "like new"
    railroad ties.
    
    	Ray

    I believe creosote is highly toxic and would not recommend you burn
    them or bury them in your yard especially if your on well water.  There
    is a pond in westboro mass that is currently a superfund toxic mess. 
    It is where they dumped the creosote waste from making telephone poles. 
    I was told this stuff is really hideous which is why the trash compony
    won't take them.  I would really check with your local epa office
    before you dispose of them.  
    
    I know if I had to fork out big dollars to have them disposed of, I
    would be upset, but the fine for illegally disposing of them could be
    higher.  Thats not to mention the environmental impact either
    
    Brian

Cut them up with a chain saw and burn them.  Anyone who tells you this is 
bad has never owned a wood stove.  A highly-efficient wood stove produces 
creosote in the chimney, so what's the big deal?

    I used to have a retaining wall in the back yard which the previous
    owner of my house had built out of sections of old phone poles (he
    worked for the phone company so he got these for free).  I had this
    ugly mess ripped out and and replaced with landscaping timbers when I
    had the backyard regraded to solve some drainage problems.  The
    contractor who did the work for me was concerned about how to get rid
    of the phone pole pieces because of the creosote.  He managed to find
    someone (some park, I think) who was building a gravel parking lot and
    wanted phone pole segments to make a fence around it so people would
    not park outside of the designated area.  So I got rid of the pole
    pieces for free, rather than having to pay megabucks to have someone
    haul them off.  The town dump wouldn't take them.  I'm not real
    concerned about creosote, myself.  That wasn't why I replaced the
    phone pole stuff rather than building the new wall out of the pieces of
    the old one: the phone pole pieces were all different shapes and sizes,
    some of them were so heavy that two of us could not lift them, and the
    whole wall was amazingly ugly: it looked like an old fishing pier.
    
    Anyhow, you might try placing an ad and see if anyone wants to haul
    them off for some similar use.  If the contractor hadn't found the
    people making the parking lot fence, I had found an aquaintance who
    would have taken them to fence off part of her horse training ring.
    
    /Charlotte

I agree with .7, with a few caveats.  Wear a facemask when you cut up the ties. 
Crosote laden sawdust is not good for the lungs.  Burning them in a hot fire
will destroy a lot the creosote.  Don't burn them in an indoor fireplace or
woodstove, as it'll do a number on the chimney, possibly causing a chimney fire. 

Burn them outdoors when it's legal.  Creosote is a natural byproduct of burning
wood, and in a hot bonfire, won't be any more toxic than most older woodstoves
or forest fires.

> I agree with .7, with a few caveats.
> Burn them outdoors when it's legal.

	DeJa Vue (ala, didn't I saw burn them outdoors in .4!??)

You didn't specify that it be an _outdoor_ bonfire.

    	Kingston, NH used to have a big bonfire every July 4th. From what I
    remember, it was basically a 2-3 story stack of railroad ties with a
    junk car on top. Not very environmentally friendly, but kind'a neat to
    watch anyway ;-)
    	
    	Ray

>
>You didn't specify that it be an _outdoor_ bonfire.
>

Didja ever see an INDOOR bonfire?

Da reason I REPEATED the burn-'em suggestion was that someone got off on the 
wrong foot and said it was dangerous to do.  Horse puckey!

FWIW, opening the damper and letting the wood stove burn a bit hotter will 
eliminate 90-ish% of the creosote build-up in the chimney.

We burned old cedar high tension line poles for 10 years or so in the 
fireplace in the house I grew up in out in Westfield and never had any 
problem with the creosote in them.  Of course, it wasn't your typical 
air-tight wood stove, either.  THAT'LL produce horrendous amounts of 
creosote from burning seasoned hardwood, never mind something like pine.

> Burn them outdoors when it's legal.

I'm guessing that the base noter lives in Massachusetts (MROA:: is in 
Marlboro).

Seriously, where and when is it legal in Massachusetts to burn carcinogenic,
contaminated waste products?
You can burm limited amounts of yard waste from January through April,
but you can't even burn LEAVES anymore.
And how small do you have to cut up a dirty railroad tie to get it to fit
in a wood stove?

- tom]

PS:  I often wonder what's going to happen in 15 to 30 years when the
current crop of PT decks, porches, and retaining walls finally exceed
their useful life.

    
    
    Why not put them in Classified_Ads?  People get rid of all sorts of things
    in that file.
    
    Just a suggestion.

> PS:  I often wonder what's going to happen in 15 to 30 years when the
> current crop of PT decks, porches, and retaining walls finally exceed
> their useful life.

    I've wondered about this myself... after seeing problems/concerns
    with other building materials containing creosote, asbestos, lead
    and the current removal and disposal methods for these materials. 

    I have visions of the same thing happening with PT wood in the
    future. Then we'll see special Hazmat-Deck-Removal specialists.
    They'll come in and erected a plastic shell around your old deck,
    and then specially suited workers will entered and piece by piece
    disassemble, wrap and remove the old deck.

    I think I'll start working on the details now and start selling
    franchises. I'll call it "Deck-be-Gone"! ;-)

    Charly

    re:hazardous materials
    
    	While I have no doubt that these things are generally not good for
    you, I have a great grandfather that spent most of his working life
    mining asbestos. He's 88 years old and still going strong.
    
    	Ray

>     	While I have no doubt that these things are generally not good for
>     you, I have a great grandfather that spent most of his working life
>     mining asbestos. He's 88 years old and still going strong.

	Remember logic 401, do not take one data point and generalize.
	It's [very] possible your grandfather is kicking strong at 88
	"in spite of" his asbestos exposure.

	Because George Burns is almost 100 and has always smoke cigars
	(and never even had gum or lip cancer as far as I know??) doesn't
	mean smoking doesn't eventually kill the "majority" of smokers .....
	(and I hope most who do not work for Phillip Morris will agree :-)

>>>Seriously, where and when is it legal in Massachusetts to burn carcinogenic,
>>>contaminated waste products?

For now, you can burn year round in a wood stove/furnace.  Creosote is a wood
burning byproduct anyway.  The only reason I don't recommend burning it in a
woodstove is that you'll end mucking the chimney, which can lead to a chimney
fire.  And I wouldn't do it in a fire place for the chimney and the amount of
smoke liable to get into the house.

As for outdoors, it's up to the town.  Most towns prohibit leaves because they
tend to take off with the updraft and you end up sending burning leaves up into
the air and around the neighborhood.  

>>>And how small do you have to cut up a dirty railroad tie to get it to fit
>>>in a wood stove?

Depends on the stove.  There are some that would take 3-4 ft sections.  Mine
would require the pieces to be so small, I'd end up with mountain of creosote
soaked sawdust to dispose of.

    	Last time I got a burning permit (in Auburn, NH), it said that only
    brush can be burned. It defined brush as vegetation containing nothing 
    more than 5" in diameter.
    
    re:18
    
    	That's why I started, "I have no doubt that it's generally not good
    for you". Although it is one data point, it also shows an extreme, almost 
    laboratory rat, type of exposure. In other words, sure one miniscule spec 
    can cause lung cancer, but... The point is, some of these sorts of things 
    are blown out of proportion.
    
    	Ray

> Although it is one data point, it also shows an extreme, almost 
> laboratory rat, type of exposure.

	But it's still meaningless statisically.  More meaningful would be the
	incident of lung cancer amoung your grandfather and his co-workers
	compared to another population.

> The point is, some of these sorts of things are blown out of proportion.

	That's a given.  However it's a generalization to use your one
	data point to say the danger of abestos is blown out of proportion,
	and an even greater jump of faith to say anything about the danger
	of railroad ties based on your grandfather apparently luckily
	surviving a lifetime of abestos exposure.

I have to disagree that burning creosote in your woodstove will mess
up your chimney.

Creosote as a biproduct of combustion of wood results from incomplete
combustion. Gases which could be further oxidized (but haven't been
due to insufficient oxygen supply/draft, said oxygen instead reacting
with more combustible components) condense along with water vapor
to form creosote.

If you burn the creosote itself as a fuel, it oxidizes more completely
and results in less combustible biproducts, and actually very little,
if any, additional residual creosote in your chimney.

re .22:

>I have to disagree that burning creosote in your woodstove will mess
>up your chimney.

True if you give the fire enough air.  If you don't you'll just vaporize
some of the creosote, send it up the flue where it condenses ready for
a chimney fire.  Same with burning stuff like pine that can generate
lots of creosote.

> True if you give the fire enough air.

Agreed, of course. Just as insufficient oxygen is the original
culprit in creosote buildup in a chimney, likewise it (insufficient
supply) is no help in using the creosote as fuel. Sorry I wasn't clear
on the need to well ventilate the combustion.

    
    	dispose of them the same the railroads do................

When I clean my chimney from my wood furnace, I take the creosote and throw it 
right back in the furnace (about a cup at a time, with a good supply of air and 
a good bed of coals).  Boy does that stuff go!  Never had a problem, and don't 
anticipate one.

								-- Chuck Newman

    Do you live in Marlborough?  I had the same problem.  I found out that
    if I cut them into 4 foot lengths the Marlboro trash guys would take
    them.  I literally put them out with the trash.  It took a couple of
    months but they took them all.  A couple went every trash day.  
    
    Mark