Conference 7.286::home_work

    Just a suggestion. With the upstairs fireplace connecting the
    master bedroom to the library/upper hall area there will be a certain
    amount of lost privacy to the master bedroom. Just the right height
    for children to sneak a peak at mom and dad if that is in your future.

    Hauling wood to an upstairs wood stove is not my idea of fun. If
    you really are going to use a wood stove then spend some time planning
    how you are going to cart the wood into the house without creating
    a mess and where you are going to store a day's supply of wood once
    you get it inside.

    I'd plan on a wood burning appliance on the first floor with easy
    access from the outside for bringing in the wood. Then find some
    way to get that heat upstairs through vents or open architecture.
    Since you are talking about mostly passive solar heating than you
    may be already set.
    
    Nick

By all means, plan for the wood!  A rather cleaver suggestion I've heard was
to build some sort of storage shed attached to the house (if you're careful
about termintes and rodents) AND have an access door on the inside.  Then, you
simply load the shed once or twice a month and whenever you need wood, you don't
even have to step outside!

As for efficiency, have you heard of Russian Fireplaces?  From what little I've
heard they're supposed to be the top of the line.  You typically fill it up and
run it full throttle once a day.  The heat generated can be stored up for as 
much as 24 hours and the claim is that one can heat a house (or some reasonable
subset) for only about a cord or so a year!  However, if you're in to viewing 
the fire, you might want to run it more than once a day and perhaps as less that
full blast.

-mark

    	A friend of my just built a house and along side the fireplace
    	put a dum-waiter (sp.) that goes into the cellar. It's a slick
    	unit, Upstairs there is a door to open and bingo there's 
    	your wood. All (most) of the mess is in the cellar)
    
    
    				Steve
    

    I believe that "Finnish" fireplaces and "Russian" fireplaces
    operate on the same principles. Instead of the flue running 
    straight up to the chimney cap, the flue snacks its way
    back and forth across the width of the chimney up to the chimney
    cap. The smoke is able to give more heat off to the chimney.
    The chimney can then slowly radiate the heat inside the house.
    Unfortunately, the fireplace does not get as much draft as in a
    conventional chimney. This makes it necessary to burn very
    fast hot fires to keep a good draft and keep smoke out of the room.
    
    Glass doors are highly recommended for "Russian" fireplaces
    to help keep smoke out of the room while a newly lit fire
    is "getting going".
                                    
    There are a couple of companies that manufacture cast masonary
    prefab fireboxes and chimneys similar to "Russian" fireplaces.
    If there is interest, I'll try to dig up my references on them.
      
    bd

Don't know what happened to my text from the last reply, however re .4

I would be interested in a list of manufacturers / addresses you might
have.  I'm considering building something of the sort myself.

Gary Simon  - BTO (Burlington, Vermont)

    There is a company (or at least a person) in Groton,
    Ma who does Russian Fireplaces.  I talked to him a couple
    years ago.  I think the name is Fitzgerald.  Does anyone
    know?  He says he has one and burns nothing but pine,
    which he gets for free.  It might be Fitzgerald Coping
    although I'm not sure.
    

re .7

	Yeah...I think I saw an add in one of the local community papers
	in Ma. about him.  He builds these giant fireplaces out of granite
	I believe.

    re: granite Russian fireplaces
    
    Not to nit, but couldn't there be a radon problem with a couple
    of tons of granite?
    
    -joet

    I suspect granite has gotten an undeservedly bad rep due to the
    (admittedly legitimate) radon furor.
    
    My impression is that problems arise only when your home is sitting
    on top of many kilotons of the stuff, AND contains a location in
    which the gas can concentrate (e.g., a closed basement) over time.
    
    A handful of tons within the living (ventilated) portion of a house
    seems unlikely to present any similar problem.  If it were feasible,
    I'd be comfortable building the entire foundation and exterior out
    of it.
    			- Bill
    

    Another question about fire place design:  I want to have a
    fireplace in a finished room on the third floor of a hip-roof
    colonial.  Actually, the room with be inside the roof.  Is there
    any minimum distance from fireplace to the the top of the
    chimney (say, a fire code) of which I need to be aware?  Also,
    anything special needed for draft, or any warnings about down
    drafts?
    
    Thanks,
     Bill

    We have friends who have a two-sided fireplace between their
    livingroom and diningroom and it is a PAIN IN THE POSTERIOR.
    It is almost impossible to control the draft so that it doesn't
    smoke on one side or the other.  It's hard to stack the wood
    properly since there is no back wall for things to lean against.
    Fireplaces in general are not easy to use to heat houses. 
    
    We feel that fireplaces in the bedroom are vastly overrated as
    romantic props.  We have one in our bedroom which we used once
    5 years ago.  There is nothing more distruptive to a romantic
    evening than having to get up every 10 minutes to stoke the fire.
    If you don't it starts smoking.  Also, every time the woods crackles
    loudly you feel you should look around and make sure no 
    sparks made it past the screen and onto the carpeting.  
    
    How do you clean a Russian fireplace flue?  Seems like they would
    be susceptible to chimney fires if the flue has lots of twists and
    turns.  And if you had a chimney fire and had to replace the flue
    how would you ever do it???
    
    What I'd do if I were .0 is to put in two separate fireplaces on
    the ground floor, just like the colonists did, and forget the 
    upstairs altogether.  Then I'd put in a real good oil or solar
    system (or gas if you can get it) and forget about the wood.  (After
    fighting it for 6 years I finally converted to oil this year and
    will be heating with oil fhw.  I can't wait.)  You can still use the
    fireplaces for entertaining or roasting marshmallows or just standing
    around the fire and warming your buns.
                                                                 

    An open two-sided fireplace would obviously be a real pain, but
    open fireplaces of any number of sides are not a particularly
    good means of heating.  We plan to seal both sides with glass
    doors similar to those used in stoves, and duct in external air
    to supply what's needed.  A proper set of andirons should handle
    wood stacking adequately (and being open on both sides there's no
    reason to try to limit burning at "the back" to concentrate the
    heat toward "the front").
    
    The fireplace is intended to be multi-functional:  it will have
    dark stone facings, and be placed perpendicular to sets of south-
    facing windows on both sides, so can serve as a direct heat
    collector during the daytime hours (and a reservoir throughout
    the night).  On the ground floor, this just supplements the
    surrounding slate floor, but on the second floor it's the main
    component of direct collection and retention.  Other possibilities
    include ducting through in-coming air (after it goes through a
    heat exchanger) to bring it up to house temperature before
    distribution, and pre-heating hot water before it goes to the
    roof-top solar unit (which would also tend to cool the fireplace
    structure in summer):  both would make use of heat in the fireplace
    structure regardless of whether it came in through the windows or
    out of burning wood, which is kind of appealing.
    
    And, of course, they are cosmetic.  I do like them, in use or not.
    It's hard to assign a value to this, but it inclines me toward this
    heating approach if it can be made to work reasonably well.
    
    I too have wondered about cleaning the contorted flues of Russian-
    or-similar-style fireplaces.  As with all aspects of this question,
    any experience people might choose to relate would be useful.
    
    Thanks,		- Bill
    

I'm renting a house that has a fireplace and chimney that I don't know what
shape it's in.  Who can I get to take a look at this before using it?  Also,
from the looks of it, the original fuel was wood; currently there is a gas line,
and fake logs in it.  Can I use either gas or wood?

I'll look in the 'Chimney sweep' note also...

Jim. 

                Try your local Fire Dept. They will often come out and
        inspect a chimney if you request it. (After all, they are the
        ones who you WILL call when you have that problem you don't
        expect or want!)
                
                /s/     Bob

    I've heard that the ornamental gas log fireplaces are outlawed,
    at least in Boston.  An apartment in West Roxbury that I lived in
    had the 'dead' gas line in the fireplace.  I don't think the fireplace
    was ever a working fireplace -- one that burned real logs.  You
    should check closely to ensure your fireplace can burn real wood.
    (Does it have a working damper?) And you should definitely have the 
    gas line killed, if it's not already, before trying to start any wood 
    fires in there.  
                  
    Joe
    
    
    

Can anyone recommend places to check out/avoid when shopping for fireplace
accessories?  We have a fireplace in the den in our new house and I want to 
get the glass/brass door, the fireplace tools, and the thing with legs that
you stack the wood on (does that part have a name??!).  Tonight would be a 
great time for a fire!

There's a place called Braun's Fireside Emporium right around the corner
from me in Leominster, MA (they're a Consolidated Dutchwest dealer... they 
carry regular, non-woodstove fireplace things...).  I haven't gone in there 
yet; but I was thinking of checking there and at Sears tonight.

Any experiences out there?  I don't have the faintest idea what these
things cost!

thanks..... /donna

Also posted to CONSUMER.
    

    My experience has shown that finding a sale at Sears for fireplace
    doors is the best bet.  I'd go for one of their better models,
    and if you can wait until they're on sale, their prices are much
    better than a fireplace/woodstove store.  As for the other
    accessories - depends on what kind of quality/beauty/durability
    you're looking for.  You can get real "pretty" ones for big $$
    that will wear out quick if you use them a lot - and you can
    get real durable ones for little %%, but they're not as attractive
    sitting on the hearth.  Look around for those at Sears and other
    fireplace stores.......
    
    andy
    

    The thing with legs you pile the wood on is called a grate.  I got
    a very serviceable one at Channel for $9.95 last year and saw the
    same price on them recently.
    
    A real nifty place to look for this stuff is Washbourne's in Peabody,
    MA.  They have the better quality equipment.  Solid brass glass doors  
    for the fireplace (high quality as far as I can tell) were about $400. 
    I haven't been able to afford them yet though.  They had a set of
    tools (poker, brush, shovel and stand) solid brass, marble base
    and 24K gold plate for something over $1000.  I thought I'd pass
    on those and get something I would want to use in the fire.
    Anyway, my impression was their prices were high but so was their
    quality.  It depends on what you want.                                
    
    Building 19 x/y had some glass doors for fireplaces last year. 
    They were in a little rough condition so I wasn't interested.
    
    Stan

wanting a 'nice' set - we got our stuff at "Fireplace <something>" in 
Auburn, and filled in what else we needed at...

			SPAGS
	
	(where else)
check them out!

    National Glass on Park Ave in Worcester has a good selection of
    fireplace doors and accessories and they're on sale (15% off) until
    the end of this month.
    
    Spag's also has fireplace doors, but not sure about their quality.

    
    I thought about appending this to note 1441 ("Stinking House"),
    but then decided this is a slightly different topic and might be
    of more use by itself. I searched and searched for this topic to
    no avail.
    
    Does anyone know what causes FIREPLACE ODOR (oh oh! -how embarrassing)
    and how to get rid of it?
    
    We just recently purchased a really wonderful free-standing fireplace
    for out downstairs family-room.  The builders were kind enough to
    build a hearth down there with a separate flue (same chimney, separate
    flue from our upstairs fireplace) probably intended for a wood stove.
    We chose to get a fireplace because we really don't need the heat
    efficiency and besides it's prettier to look at.
    
    Actually it is quite efficient, and we hardly have to touch it at
    all once a fire is established. It is a carousel type, having a
    bowl with a pedestal base, octagonal glass panels all the way around
    the sides and a conical top. (It's round). 
    
    We have recently detected an odor -an ashes-type odor - in the family
    room that has become more and more powerful, and now I can even detect
    it upstairs when the wind is right...  (we haven't used our upstairs
    fireplace yet this year).  It is the same aroma that I can sometimes
    detect from our upstairs fireplace that is very faint and only happens
    when it is in severe need of cleaning out.  Downstairs, it slaps
    you in the face as soon as you walk in the room- quite obnoxious.
    
    What causes this smell, and why would our new, much-more-efficient
    fireplace have such a problem when we've never had the problem with the
    other one (small and difficult to use).  Should we limit the use of
    newspapers when starting the fire, is it the type of wood? We have been
    using left-over lumber and aromatic cedar scraps from our
    newly-constructed cedar closet as kindling along with regular firewood.
    Does lumber create this odor?  Do I just have to clean out this type of
    fireplace more often? (We have only had it two weeks and have used it
    maybe seven times- hey, it's a new toy, you know?) 
    
    As an aside, other than the smell, I would recommend this fireplace
    highly for looks and efficiency, we're really enjoying it!  I am
    assuming I will eventually figure out how to control the odor, of
    course!
    
    Any burning (har har) ideas?
    
    Amy. 
         

Sounds like a downdraft to me.  The air is all coming down the chimney.  Why it 
would start doing that with the new fireplace I don't know, but a downdraft 
will smell bad like that regardless of the fireplace type.

Solutions?  Stop the air wherever it's leaving the house, drawing air down the 
chimney, or seal the chimney up better when not in use.

Paul

All active chimneys smell bad.  The degree of smell is affected by what 
you burn, how dirty your chimney is and how much chimney you have.  The 
real problem is that a cold column of air builds up in the chimney when 
it's not in use, and when the air outside the chimeny and inside the 
house is warmer than the air in the chimney, the shimeny air comes 
sliding down into the living area.  yeccch.

Most modern stoves are "air tight" (which means they don't leak much, 
not that they don't leak at all.) and so your stove might be shielding 
you from some of the smell.  A fireplace is wide open, so it comes 
stinking down the chimeny and into your house.

The best solution is to find a way to cap the chimney tightly when not 
in use.  This will keep the smell out when it's warm outside, and it 
will keep the heat in when it gets cold (and you're not using your 
fireplace.)  I once used a big plug made out of insulating material and 
cardboard to stop up a smelly flue.  The important thing (I learned) is 
to put something that catches your attention on it so you'll remember 
it's there before you try to light a fire.  With a fireplace you could 
just use a section of rope or chain and let it hang down into the grate.

					>>>==>PStJTT

    This happens in our house (in the basement most often) when the
    inside air gets cooler than the outside. You get a down draft with
    no wind. I my stoves are tight enought that just closing the dampers
    usually solves the problem. Another solution is to open a window
    and let the temp. equalize.
    
    Of course if it's warmer outside than inside in the winter you'll
    probably build a fire anyway. :-)
    
    There are chimney dampers that go on the top of the chimney and
    close it off from the elements. You have to run some linkages down
    the flew to operate then from inside the house.
    
    my .2
    
    /tb/
    

    All the previous replys sound good, thought I'd add another
    possibility.  Ash left in a fireplace doesn't smell nearly as much
    when dry as when damp.  This time of year I would assume the fires
    are irregular so ash has time to absorb moisture from the air. 
    Most basements/walkouts/whathaveyou have considerably higher humidity,
    hence the ash gets damper sooner and stinks.
    
    -dj-
    

    
    Thanks for your ideas, you have definitely helped.  Given your
    suggestions and some things we hadn't thought of before I think we
    figured it out.  Like I said, the fireplace is downstairs, right next
    to our unfinished "utility room" where the furnace lives which I didn't
    mention before.  We can't keep the door closed, because it is the only
    reasonable place to keep our cats' litter box so they need to have
    access.  Anyway, since furnaces have air intakes, (we have forced hot
    water heat) it has to get air from somewhere, and guess where it sucks
    it from? The family room, which then creates a draw down the chimney,
    when the chimney has cooled off.
    
    It miraculously goes away when we have a fire going... and doesn't
    return for several hours afterward.  Since the chimney is drawing air,
    too, The furnace is forced to steal air form somewhere else in the
    house and the air currents must change.  I think that may be coupled
    with dampness and other effects, too, to make it totally obnoxious.
    Oh, and The damper we have is not very airtight, so we're going to try
    to find one that can go on top of the chimney, as suggested. 
    
    Recently, when the cats were out all day, we closed the door to the
    utility room and opened the window that's in there, and it was much
    much better!  The solution is, once we get around to finishing the
    utility room we are planning to close in the furnace and put access
    through the garage, as well as adding a vent to the garage (or maybe to
    the outside) for the furnace air intake.  Clever, no?  In the meantime,
    it will soon get too cold to keep opening the family room windows to
    air it out, so we don't need gas masks... 
                                           
    Thanks, you were a great help!
                     
    Amy.
                                              

    RE: .5
    
    >                  We can't keep the door closed, because it is the only
    > reasonable place to keep our cats' litter box so they need to have
    > access.
    
    One thing you might consider here is installing one of those plastic
    pet doors.  They are usually sold to let your pets outdoors.  I
    installed one in the door to our basement.  It really helps keep
    the drafts down, as well as providing a means of shutting the pets
    up when necessary (like when you have friends over that are allergic
    to pets).
    
    I found that the only real problem was getting the pets to use the
    door.  This was solved by initially holding it all the way open
    with a piece of string, and then gradually lowering it every day
    or two.
    
    - Mark

    I would like to know if anyone has suggestions on how to clean the
    black smoke residue off the bricks on the front of a fireplace?
    Just with steel wool, or maybe some kind of solvent mild enough
    to not hurt the bricks.
    
    Thanks

We used a good stiff solution of TSP, scrub brush, and rubber gloves. 
That did a pretty good job.

John H.

    Most builders etc. use muriatic (sp?) acid.  The stuff is somewhat
    nasty, use gloves and whatever else the label recommends.  It does
    clean brick though.  I think you have to do the whole fireplace,
    it will look dirty compared to any area you just cleaned.

    I think muriatic acid (otherwise known as "a cheap grade of
    hydrochloric acid") is used mostly for cleaning off mortar
    spills and such.  I'm not sure it would do any better job cleaning
    off soot than TSP or other less lethal chemicals.  (Then again,
    it might - I've never used it.)

    My Bro in law is a bricklayer...I had crap all over two fireplaces
    in my new house....he told me to go to the hardware store and in
    the paint section they sell sulfuric acid.....I did and used gloves
    and a toothbrush and it worked wonders.....but you have to be
    v..e..r..y..careful with the stuff
    
    Rick

    Muriatic acid has worked well for me in soaking the buildup of carbon
    and soot off of glass telephone pole insulators which had been on
    poles near a railroad bed for years.  I tried this after remembering
    that it was recommended for cleaning fireplace bricks.
    
    You do not use it full strength.  As with any acid/water mix, wear
    protectiving clothing, eye protection and add the acid to the water,
    not the other way around.
    
    Use a non-metallic container for mixing the solution.  As acids
    go, this is on the mild side but it should do the job.  Try a small
    area first.  If you spill the solution on someplace it shouldn't
    be, you can neutralize the acid with a baking soda/water wash, but
    be careful.  Adding these two together in liquid form can cause
    a violent little eruption and spill.
    
    Go into a hardware store and read the directions on the bottle of
    Muriatic acid.

    Try an "oven cleaner". I used "easy-off" to clean my fireplace before
    installing a wood stove and was very satisfied with the results.
    I thought that the local hardware person that recommended it to
    me was pulling my leg until I tried it. Just spray on the oven cleaner
    and wipe off the residue.

	I used a product specifically for cleaning brick, probably
        bought it at Spags...worked better than I expected, not an
	acid.  I will try to get the name/source.

	Bill G.

    
    	I'm looking for a firewood rack for inside the house; the kind
    	 that you sit on the hearth to keep a few pieces handy.  Does
    	 anyone know of any plans available for one?  I'd like to make
    	 my own out of wood, but really have no idea where to start.
    
    				-Rich
    
    	p.s. - I'm in Atlanta, so don't suggest Spag's.  I don't even
    		know what that is...  :-)
    

    
    
    	You could take a piece of plywood, steam it then clamp it over
    a barrel until it dries then laminate it or buy one for $10.
    
    	-Steve- (Who just learned what a pain it is to bend wood !)
    

    Check out KRYSTL::STOVES.  I know that Consolidated Dutchwest has a
mail order catalog with a few, mostly iron, tho, I think.  You should find
their phone number somewhere in the above Notes conference, too.  (Press KP7
to add it to your notebook.)

    
    	Re .6,.7:
   
    	  Thanks for the ideas.  I was interested in building one
    	   simply as a fun project.  Something to do in the evenings,
    	   weekends, etc.
    
    	I'll give the stoves conference a try.

    
    				-Rich
    

I'm planning on putting in a "fake" fireplace and know nothing about them - such
as who even sells them.

Before you stop laughing, a little explanation might help.  These things aren't
really fake, but rather are not made the traditional mortar/brick way.  I
think they're either made or steel or some such other substance and might even
be lined with firebrick.  The hearth looks quite real and when you put a real
mantel around them they look (and work) like the real thing.  Since I'm getting
ready to start my wiring, I figure I better figure out what to do about the
fireplace.

Some questions that come to mind are:

	o	how much do these things cost?
	o	how about quality?
	o	any preferred vendors?
	o	are there any specific framing requirements?
	o	what are the building codes on these things?
	o	as mentioned earlier, where can you see/buy them?

-mark

    I have two fake fireplaces.  Fake in that they don't use a traditional
    chimney; rather, they use triple wall flue pipe.
    
    I think my builder got them at Corriveau-Routier in Nashua - at
    least I know they sell them.
    
    __Rich

    
    I installed one of these in my home two years ago.  It was the first
    house I had owned that did not have a fireplace and I found winter
    much more dreary without the ability to have a fire going.
    
    The way the living room was set up, the fire place had to be on
    an inside wall (unless I wanted to move windows).  I got an estimate
    from a mason to build one--he came up with a cost of $6,500 and
    he wanted to cut the main carrying beam of the house in order to
    build a platform for the chimney.  
    
    I thanked him very much and tried to find an alternative.
    
    There are several manufactures which make zero-clearance
    fireplaces--that is the majority of the unit is designed to safely
    operate with zero clearance from combustible materials.
    
    I found E. G. Washburne in Danvers to sell several different models,
    and went with a 36" opening Martin fireplace.  The fire box cost
    about $650; the stove pipe (triple wall, although I could have legally
    used double wall) added another $600. This was enough stove pipe
    to go from the fireplace, up another 2 stories and then about 3'
    beyond the roof.
    
    Washburne had some very knowledgable people which helped quite a
    bit.
    
    The installation was pretty straight forward; although in my case,
    it was a pain to do that much interior work--I had to cut one joist
    per floor and then box around it to provide adequate support.  If
    the fireplace had been against an outside wall, construction would
    have been much easier.
    
    Basically, the fireplace is just a well insulated metal box, with
    firebrick on the inside--it weighs around 300 pounds.  I put up
    a drywall around it (conforms to code), and then faced the metal
    portion of the fireplace with marble.  Other options are brick or
    stone.  There are also a wide selections of manufacturers which
    make mantels designed for these fireplaces.
    
    I am very happy with the way this turned out; it looks like it was
    built with the rest of the house (c. 1910).
    
    If you have any other questions, send me mail.
    
    	Don
    

    While we're on the subject. My house (c. 1925) has a fireplace in
    the living room on an outside wall. There is a gas pipe coming into
    the bottom which has been plugged. There is no outside chimney,
    or evidence that there ever was one. But inside it looks just like
    a regular fireplace but someone has bricked up the back so there
    is no evidence of any openings. Has anyone ever seen anything like
    this? My guess was that there was a gas heater in there with a small
    vent to the outside. I had a mason come look at it and he gave me
    his professional opinion - " I dunno what the h*ll it is ??? "
    
    Thanks in advance for any ideas
    
    Tim
    

    I lived in an apartment in Salt Lake City with a gas heater that
    had a fireplace look. The thing looked like one of those free standing
    fire hood with a asbestoes log (that's before they told folks that
    asbestoes are cancerous.
    
    Sears actually sells FAKE fake fire places (no heat; just looks).
    
    /cal

    
    From the sublime, to the ridiculous...
    
    In the lobby of our facility (CTC2-1) they set a Christmas tree
    and other such trimmings and rolled in a TV and VCR combo. Someone
    brought in a tape (comercially available) called "Video Fireplace".
    It's a hour or two long tape of a crackling fireplace...
    
    So just go buy a small color tv that will just fit in your old plugged
    up fireplace and run the tape!  :-}
    
    
    							Oh brother.
    
    							  * MAC *

Back to the original question:

There are many different brands of zero clearance fireplaces. The biggest
issue (in my opinion) is the trade-off of function vs interior appearance.
Many units have air circulation systems that pull in room air, circulate
it around the firebox, and discharge warm air back into the room. This
increases the amount of useable heat produced by the unit. The downside
to this is that the units have to have vents at the top and bottom (or
sides) which make it impossible to have the unit look like a traditional
brick fireplace.

    By the way, most units come with an outside air supply vent, which
    decreases the amount of interior air (heated by your costly furnace)
    consumed by the fireplace -- and hence decreases the expense of using
    the fireplace. I'd strongly recommend a unit with this option. 
                                                          
I installed a Martin 36" zero clearance fireplace which has no interior
vents, but does have the outside air vent. I installed it on an exterior
wall, ran the triple wall chimney up two stories, built a wooden chase on
the outside to hide the fireplace and chimney, faced the metal with marble,
built a marble hearth and built a mantle out of 6-10 different moldings. 

The end result is that from the inside, everyone thinks the fireplace
is a traditional, professionally built fireplace; from the outside everyone
thinks it is a typical contractor installed, metal chimney, fireplace.

I think I probably spent about $2000 for all the material. I could have
done it for less if I had not wanted a fancy mantle and marble facing/hearth.
                                                                             
I also recommend E.G. Washburne in Danvers.                                  
                                                                             
Depending on where you live, I'd be happy to show you the fireplace          
-- if you want to drive to Wilmington MA (RT 128N & RT 93N)                  
                                                                             
VCS                                                                          
                                                                             

    There is even another type of FAKE fireplace on the market.  This
    one I am planning to 'install' into my apt in the city.
    
    There is a series of fireplace units sold by JC PENNEY (mail order
    only on this product) that need no venting, and actually burn. 
    Instead of burning wood or coal, these units burn an alcohol gel 
    product that produces no smoke...and 9000 BTU's of heat in the 3-4
    hours of burning time per 'refill' of the gel.  For the one I plan
    to buy, which is a pretty-good-sized immitation brick, with mantle
    unit...the cost is about $300.00...including several refill jugs
    of the gel.  The flame exhists around and about your typical fake
    log configuration, on a metal grate.  But it does burn, and heat.
    
    Nice option for those of us who live in the city, and miss the
    fireplace "back home"!  Especially since my "Video Yule Log"
    (correction on MAC's note...Yule Log also comes with merry Christmas
    carols being played...Fireplace is just that...no singing) doesn't
    throw any heat.  Just atmosphere.
    
    Jeremy, @ CTC
    
    ps...and I thought you liked my video, MAC!

    re.7
    Burns sterno,eh?
    
    -j
    

    sounds like a good way to die of carbon monoxide.

        We just bought a house and all the brick above the fileplace
        was black.  
    
        Last week my husband used a spray bottle of "409" and the
        foam was absorbed by the brick but it came out spotless!
    
        You'll probably need a few bottles, but it's worth it.  
        No scrubbing, no rubber gloves, etc.
    
        Good luck.
    
        Alice

    I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask this, but here goes
    anyway.
    
    We're in the process of building a new house, which will have a
    fireplace.  Someone mentioned to me that if the house is well-insulated
    with "regular" insulation and Tyvek (which ours will be) that we
    will have a problem using the fireplace.  They said that there will
    not be enough of a draft in the house for the fireplace to draw
    enough air to make the smoke go up the chimney, and as a result
    we'll have a smokey house every time we use the fireplace.  (The
    person who told me this supposedly experiences this everytime they
    use their own fireplace, and either have to open windows to provide
    enough draft, or not use the fireplace at all.  I'm not crazy about
    either option!)
    
    My question is:  is this a common problem with well insulated houses?
    Or is there just something wrong with my friend's fireplace?  Is
    it enough of a problem that we should push the builder to provide
    an outside vent so the fire can draw air from outside instead of
    from the inside of the house?  We had actually mentioned an outside
    vent to him a few weeks back, just so the fire woulld not be drawing
    heated air from the house, and he said it wasn't necessary.
    
    Can anybody help me?
    
    Thanks,
    Lynne
    

I had that problem using a woodstove in a tight house.  It wouldn't 
exactly suck the windows out of the frames, but it would try.  I'd open 
a window, and suddenly the stove would preform like gangbusters.

The "right" solution is supposed to be an air-to-air heat exchanger. I 
never tried it, but it makes sense.  As a short-term solution, I just 
ran a clothes dryer vent to a grate near the stove, and tricked up the 
flap in the vent hood so I could open it when I had the stove running 
and close it when the stove was stopped.  It worked fine, and I moved 
the next year to a house that could support a blast furnace with no 
special venting required.

					>>>==>PStJTT

    It really should not be a big deal for your builder to install a
    fresh air intake for your fireplace during construction.The last
    two houses I had built included this feature in the cost of the
    fireplace option.I had relatively air tight doors put on over the
    opening and the air intake seemed to work well for not sucking too
    much air out of the house.
    May I suggest that you get your builder to install a fireplace insert
    during construction,the ones I had were not expensive they were
    metal boxes with double walls that had air passages in them.Have
    him install the fans that go with them so you can maximize the heat
    from your fires.I could never afford the air tight high efficiency
    ones that are available,this was a relatively cheap alternative.
    Hope this helps
    Les.
    

    
    we tried to use the fireplace in the house we just bought and
    ended with lots of smoke in the room.
    
    although we did not smoke a salmon in there, but we did have
    smoked Johnny, smoked Catherine, and smoked Christine.
    
    what's wrong with it? i am totally new to the fireplace, please
    help!!!

    
    If not, there should be some metal chains that open the flue (a metal 
    door to the chimney) so that smoke goes up the chimney instead of into 
    your living room.
    
    -tm
    

    If the damper *was* open, there are two primary explanations for
    a smokey fireplace: a clogged chimney/flue, or insufficient draft.
    
    Before starting a fire in a fireplace for the first time, *always*
    make sure the chimney is clean - unless your primary intent is
    to collect fire insurance.
    
    If the chimney is clean, it may have had insufficient draft.
    The higher the chimney, the larger the cross-sectional area of
    the flue, and the warmer the outside temperature (or any combination
    of these factors), the lower the draft. Sometimes it helps to
    "prime" the draft with a burning sheet of newspaper or two held
    up the flue before starting the kindling - to warm the air in
    the chimney.
    
    But check the damper and the chimney first.

    My neighbor startrd his fireplace that other weekend and really
    disrupted a party that they were having at the time. We he called
    me and ask if I would help. I checked the whole thing out and
    everything was clear. Nothing was wrong at all, just alot of smoke
    in the house. It seemed to stop when the windows and doors were
    open which led me to the answer............the "whole house fan"
    was going and we couldn't hear it over the music. I had to disconnect
    it, because something was wrong with the thermostat. 
    
    Jim

    If the damper is open, the chimney is clear, you don't have an
    exhaust fan going someplace, a window is open a crack, and it
    STILL smokes...blame the fireplace design.  Unless a fireplace
    is designed properly, it will smoke no matter what you do.
    When I was a kid, a friend of mine lived in a very modern, very
    expensive house with a fireplace that was "designed to be an
    integral part of the overall architectural statement created
    by the house, dominating the living room with its strong horizontal
    lines of rough-faced sandstone, creating tension against the
    soaring verticals...blah, blah, blah."  Well, you know what I
    mean.  Anyway, it might have been an aesthetic marvel, but that
    fireplace didn't work worth anything.

    re.4
    I've seen fireplaces, like the one you discribed, that had to be fitted
    with an exhaust fan to create a draft. I don't remember the name
    of company, but they make fans that are built into a cap fitted on the top.
               
    Jim

    By all means go with a fresh air intake! Why?

    1. Fires will burn better and you won't have a smoke problem.
    2. You won't waste money by sucking air from the house into the
       fire and up the chimney.
    3. You won't add to the indoor air pollution problem of your new
       house.      
    4. You will not lower the air pressure in the house -- which is
       alleged to be a factor in higher radon levels.

    For very little extra, you can have the builder add a vent with
    an automatic damper at the exterior end.
    
    For more money but the looks of a standard fireplace, add a Martin Zero
    Clearance fireplace. It has a manually controlled vent, which makes a
    tighter seal when the fireplace is not being used. It does not have
    any blowers or ducts, so you can put brick, marble, etc over the
    metal and no one will know that it is not a standard, built-in
    fireplace.
    
    For more money and highest energy savings, install a fireplace insert
    with blowers, ducts, etc.
    
As proof of the benefits of the external intake, a while ago a visiting
friend lighted a fire in my Martin without opening the external intake.
When I returned home, the house was very smoky, the fire was burning
poorly, and my friend told me that the smoke detectors had gone off several
times. I opened the external intake and within 5 minutes the fire was
burning just fine and the smoke had begun to dissipate. Unfortunately the
smoky smell did not clear-out until I opened windows on both sides of the
house the next day! 

    Unfortunatly there are a lot of bad fireplace designs out there.
    When a mason constructs one, he/she decides on the size,shape, and
    dimentions of the firebox. He/she decides on how to contruct the
    smoke shelf. Many times these people don't know what they are
    doing. Add to this the fact that the builder wants the fastest,cheapest
    job, and the fact that a good mason is hard to find and look what
    you get.   When I put in my fireplace (I was general contractor)
    I installed a kit by thermal energy systems. This sucker includes
    approximently 30,000 pounds of masonary. It NEVER smokes, even
    during startup. With the kit, the mason had no say in the critical
    design of the unit.
    
    
    					Dave
    

    I have a slightly different question.  How much would one expect
    to pay if they wanted to have a fireplace installed in a house that
    does not currently have one.
    
    I have an old (1901) colonial.  Apparently, the original builders
    were afraid of fire and hence no fireplace.  I have been thinking
    of putting one in the living room, with one in the bedroom that
    is above the living room.  I have not done any estimates, as I am
    just in the thinking stage right now.  But, I thought I would try
    to get an idea of cost from you folks.
    
    I know they are not always efficient, but I like the look of them,
    and I think that it would add to the value of my house, if it is
    done right.
    
    Also, is it advisable to go to an architect or interior designer
    about the best place to put the fireplace?  I am still trying to
    figure the best way to put it so that it looks as natural as possible
    and not like it was slapped in after-the-fact.
    
    Ed..
    

    WAG on cost: $5000 ?????
    
    I don't think the builders of your house were afraid of fire - it's
    just that in 1901, coal and central heat were available, and NOBODY
    wanted a big old inefficient, ugly, inconvenient, fireplace in their
    nice new house.  Look at how many fireplaces got bricked up as soon
    as the homeowner could afford something "better", like an enormous
    coal-burning steam boiler or hot air furnace in the basement.

    On the cost: the universal rule is: it will cost twice as much
    as you think it should.  $5000 seems like a good "should" number,
    therefore the "will" number is $10,000.  Seriously!  
    
    Bob

Is it advisable to use cedar clapboard siding as kindling for a fireplace? 
Is cedar clapboard treated with any chemicals before it is sold?

Also, what about finish grade pine for kindling? It generally has very 
few knots and is kiln-dried, so is it still a source for creosole buildup in 
the chimney?

Thanks

    I've used both of these products as kindling with no problem.
    Cedar clapboards burns very easily.  It works great.
    

    I've used cedar shingles (untreated) quite a bit with no problem.
    In fact, it gives a very pleasant fragrance to the living area.
    
    Ken

    Re -2  I found out about the fear of fire from a person who spoke
    with the original builders/owners.  It seems the woman came by the
    house a number of years ago and told the owners at that time about
    her fears.
    
    Re -1 Are you really serious?  If it should cost $5,000 then figure
    $10,000?  This rule of thumb might hold true for smaller jobs, but
    as the job gets larger, then I would think that this would lessen.
     After all, if an addition is estimated at $50,000, then I would
    be pretty pissed if it came in at anywhere near $100,000.
    
    From what I have heard, $5-6,000 seems to be the "rough" estimate.
     What about the design question?  Is an architect recommended for
    a job such as this?  Or would an interior decorator be a better
    thought?
    
    Ed..
    

    Back in '79 or '80 when I was living in Minneapolis there was an
    article in the paper about fireplaces in tightly built home.  An
    adolescent in St. Louis Park (I think) had died while sleeping on
    the floor in the family room in front of the fireplace (the fireplace
    was operating).  After a couple of days of news, it was finally
    stated that due to the house being so tightly sealed, the air for
    combustion in the fireplace was being obtained by drawing air down
    the furnace chimney (the lower pressure in the house induced a back
    draft since this was the path of least resistance).  When the furnace
    came on, the fumes vented into the house since air was coming down
    the chimney (a positive draft could not be created by the warm air
    coming from the furnace).  Being, a mixture of carbon dioxide, carbon
    monoxide and various other things, this asphyxiated the child.
    
    After this happy note, I would recommend (some building codes require)
    an outside air inlet for any combustion device which vents to the
    outside.  After installing one on my furnace, I noticed less cold
    drafts throughout the house.
    

    For what little you'll burn as kindling, it's not worth worrying
    about.  In fact, in a fireplace you have so much excess air anyway
    I doubt that you'd ever get much of a creosote problem even if
    you burned nothing but pine.  Creosote becomes a real problem only
    in a stove.

    As far as fireplace design, I would recommend that you find a brick
    mason who has built a good, working fireplace and trust him to build
    another.  I would have serious doubts about the ability of an
    architect or an interior designer to design a good working fireplace.
    
    A little book that makes for interesting reading is "The Forgotten
    Art of Building a Good Fireplace", by Vrest Orton.  I think it's
    published by the same people who publish Yankee Magazine, but I'm
    not sure.  The author is a bit evangelical, and I've heard that a true
    Rumford-design fireplace is not quite as good to have as he claims
    it to be, but the book will tell you some interesting things about
    fireplaces.

    P.S. Also note that "a good brick mason" is NOT equivalent to
    "a brick mason who knows how to build a good fireplace."

    Thanks for the help so far.
    
    We're supposed to be talking to the mason tomorrow about putting
    in a fresh air intake.  Just in case he doesn't know what we mean,
    how should this be installed?  Specifically, should the intake come
    into the floor of the fireplace, or in through one of the walls?
    If it comes in through a wall, does it matter how high up it is?
    Should it be near the floor of the fireplace, or doesn't it matter?
    
    Also, is there some way he can put a little door or something over
    the intake, that we would open before we lit the fire?  We are not
    planning on putting glass doors on the fireplace, and I'd imagine
    that having a fresh air intake OPEN all the time would make the
    house pretty cold when the fireplace wasn't being used!
    
    Also, how big does the intake "pipe" need to be?
    
    Thanks for any help!
    Lynne
    

    re. 11
    Lynne,
    	  I have a fresh air intake in my fireplace.  It is in the floor.
    It is located in the front center, just behind my glass doors (I
    have a heat-a-lator fireplace).  The opening is covered with a grate
    which has louvers below the grate line which are controlled by a
    lever at the right side of the cover.  I open the vent just before
    lighting the fire.  This appears to be a "standard" unit.  It is
    rectangular and the size of one brick, i.e. about two inches wide
    and about eight inches long.
    Ric

    re.11
    
    In my previous house in Colorado the fireplace had an outside intake.
    
    Just inside of the glass doors, on the bottom-left was a push-pull 
    type of handle which opened/closed the intake.  I do not know if
    it matters from which direction the air comes in, nor do I know
    how much air would be too little or too much.  You may want to research
    this a bit.
    
    Art

My 25 year old house has a brick fireplace on an exterior wall with a
not-too-well-sealing flue and some thin glass doors.  Its COLD around
the fireplace, and I'm not sure if it's the brick, the doors, or what. 
I know one approach is to buy expensive (thermopane?) doors and
rebuild a tighter flue.  Does anyone have suggestions on where to get 
doors and flues, or what else can be done to diminish this source of
cold?   thanx 




[Paul, David - I looked under chimneys, and didn't find an appropriate
note, though I wouldn't be surprised if this topic came up before in
this file <somewhere>] 

    A cheap, quick and ugly fix would be to cut a piece of 1/4" plywood
    about 2" larger than the opening.  Then staple 8" fiberglass 
    insulation to one side, and put a drawer handle on the other.
    Rig some type of tempory hooks to hold it in place.  You can
    remove it when you want to use the fire place.  You won't get
    a better R value solution, but you can get a better looking
    solution.
    My basement windows are single pane and let the cold in like a 
    screen door.  I've been meaning to replace them, but I just
    stuff in a batt of 8" insulation for December through Feb.  It
    blocks the light, but it keeps the heat in.
    					=Ralph= 	

    The solution suggested in .1 doesn't need to be ugly - get an
    artist to paint a design on the plywood.  If you go to Old
    Sturbridge Village, you can see wooden fireplace covers (there's
    an official name for them, which I can't remember) that have
    been painted.  A traditional early American way of blocking
    a drafty fireplace, and of course in the old days there were
    no dampers in fireplaces!
    I think I might go with 2" foam instead of fiberglass on the
    back - it will stand up better to being moved around.
    Needless to say, if you make up one of these things, be SURE
    the fire is OUT before you put it in place!

    We had a similar problem.  The living room was the coldest place
    in the house.  Unless we had a fire going - then every other room
    was cold.
    
    The problem turned out to be the interface between the brick and
    the rest of the house.  The guy never heard of silicone caulk that
    put that one in.  I had to tear down the sheetrock and re-install
    for other reasons.  While I was there, I took care of some wiring
    and fixed the insulation, added a continuous vapor barrier and caulked
    between the brick and wood.
    
    You don't need to get that drastic but I would feel around the outside
    (inside the house) of the fireplace and see if you feel any drafts.
    I'd then take some silicone caulk and seal it up.  When the cold
    weather lifts do the same on the outside.  You'll probably want
    to use clear so it doesn't show up all that much.
    
    I think you'll notice a big difference.

Caulking is probably a good idea when it gets warmer:

RE:  insulated plywood fireplace doors, 2 questions:

1) Will it work if the doors won't go flush to the fireplace?  There 
is 1-2" of protruding handles.  A snug fit around the outer edge
may be tough as well.

2) Choice of insulation:  We have an infant in the house, so I'd rathe
not leave fiberglass around. Could you tell me more about the foam, 
any other ideas?

(maybe the foil-lined bubble wrap?  I forget what its called)
thanx/j

    You'll need a reasonably snug fit for it to do any good.  I take
    it from your description that you have some kind of built-in
    fireplace screen or something; it's not just the bare fireplace
    opening.  That complicates things, but somehow you need to get
    a reasonably draft-free fit.  I assumed that you had just the
    opening, and you could make a single plywood panel about 2" bigger
    all around, that you could set in front of the opening up snug
    against the brick, with the insulation on the back a good snug
    fit into the opening.
    re: the foam.  The stuff you probably want is the extruded sytrofoam.
    It comes in 2'x8' sheets, in 1" and 2" thicknesses.  The 1" thickness
    is about $5 a sheet, last I knew.  There are other kinds of foam
    available, but the extruded styrofoam is probably the most cost-
    effective and durable for this job.  

	I had the same problem with our fireplace.  I think the right answer
depends on how much you plan on using the fireplace.  Given the horrid heat
inefficiencies of regular fireplaces, we use ours quite infrequently for special
occasions.  To cut down on the draft, I took a double-thickness of plastic
sheeting and simply taped it all around the opening onto the bricks.  While
this doesn't provide the conductive thermal insulation of the rigid styrofoam
or fiberglas (i.e. the plastic itself does get cold and thus cools the room air
in contact with it somewhat), it does eliminate the drafts quite well and is
very easy to make, put up or take down.  And it sure wouldn't look any worse
than having a batt of insulation or rigid styrofoam attached to the front!

	By the way, I sympathize totally with the reply talking about the gaps
between the sheetrock and the bricks.  I have the same problem, but is made
worse by us having (thanks to a previous owner... :-( beams across the top and
along the sides of the fireplace.  Rustic look, yeah, but since they aren't
air-tight along wall, the gap can leak air anywhere around the beams...  What
fun I had last evening sealing this up!

								-c

    Be careful  with  the  styrofoam  insulation.  It gives off *very*
    toxic  fumes  if  it  burns. The code around here requires 1/2" of
    sheetrock  between  it  and any living area. I was going to use it
    above  the  fold-down  attic  stairs,  but will have to settle for
    fiberglass as I didn't want the weight of sheetrock.

--David

Unfortunately, the wife is unimpressed with the plastic and insulation 
suggestions.

If I "were" to do it right, i.e., get a new set of truly insulating 
fireplace doors - where would one shop?

thanx/j

Yellow pages under "Fireplaces" is a good start, but bear in mind that
you are really looking for more than just a screen (AKA glass doors and
nothing else.)

What you really want is a heatalator if you want to get some real benefit 
out of it.   This is an insert, with an active system for moving cold air 
into the bottom of the unit, heating it, and discharging it from the top.

Alternatively, they make passive inserts which do not include the active
fan.  It just works from natural convection currents, but is not as good.
However, they are much less expensive.

I have one of the latter knd, but wish I had the former.

My $.02

Bob

    re: .8
    
    Sears also carries them
    
    Clay
    

    Our old house has glass fireplace doors, but they're ill-fitting.
    And since the damper is broken, we get a few drafts into the living
    room.
    
    
    I got an idea by flipping through the Brookstone Tool catalog. 
    I cut a piece of polystyrene to fit the flue opening to cut the
    draft, and I remove it when we want a fire.
    
    Bo

	Re: .9

	Very mild flame...

	That phrase "what you really want..." has always bugged me.  If what
.0 really wanted was to get more heat from a burning fireplace, I'm sure that is
how the question would have been phrased.  The base note clearly indicated a
desire to cut down on the drafting caused by an improperly-sealed fireplace
and a non-insulating front door.  (And having a fireplace insert won't solve
his problem.)  Some phrase like "here is something else you might want to
consider" conveys the same information without making it seem that the person's
original note is totally out of whack with reality.

	Why is this a hot button with me?  My mom uses that phase "what you
really want is..." a lot when she has what she believes to be a better
suggestion.  The way she says it (note the strict reference to my mom,
I'm not saying your's was intended the same way) makes it sound like "what a
silly and stupid thing you're doing -- here is how you really *should* be
thinking" which sounds like a big put-down.  One of the things I like best
about this notesfile (as opposed to insulting notesfiles like Parenting has
turned into...) is that questions can be asked/answered without value judgements
being made on the issue behind the question.

	Thanks.

								-c

Well... sorry to hear you have such a bad relationship with your Mother! 8^)
(She must not have read the "Parenting" NOTEsfile!)   8-)  8-)

I was not intending to tell anyone that they were doing stupid things...
I was simply relating one of the stupid things that *I* did, when I got
a passive rather than active fireplace insert.

There was a mention of acquiring new glass doors... exactly how I got 
started looking...and the natural extension is to look at fireplace inserts
as well.

So... Moral of story... I would suggest, were it me, and it has been my 
experience, and if I were in the same position as you, and if you think
that this is a good idea, and if the rest of the poeple in this file agree,
and if you wife, mother-in-law, children, dog, cat, canary, neighbors,
aunts, uncles, cousins, and .-1's Mother all agree,...  8-)

... if you buy an insert, get an active one.

Bob

>... if you buy an insert, get an active one.

Craig has a point.  I'm not interested in an efficient fireplace.  The 
fireplace is in a spot where the heat can't be used real well, and we 
only light about 3 fires per year anyway.  My wife wants to keep the 
living room looking nice, and I'm concerned about cost.  If someone 
can recommend an insert that maximizes ONLY insulation and minimizes 
cost, I'm afraid I will disappoint -.1 by not spending what I 
understand to be significant extra $$ to get an active insert.  

Point taken Craig, this is too classy a file to start to look like 
parenting, and I apologize if I have accidently pushed it in that 
direction.

/j

    Re .2
>					    If you go to Old
>   Sturbridge Village, you can see wooden fireplace covers (there's
>   an official name for them, which I can't remember) that have
>   been painted
    
    They're called fireboards.  Very attractive.
    
    	Marlene

    
    
    There's a fireboard in one of my fireplaces that looks 
    like it was painted by a 2 year old.  I might even pay 
    you to take it.   :^)
                      
    -tm
    

                You might consider seeing if you can make some sort of
        insert that goes *up* into the area of the damper and out of
        sight. This should block the cold and the drafts almost as well
        as putting something out front. A serious caution about this -
        DO NOT LIGHT A FIRE WITH IT IN PLACE!!!!!  A good way to remind
        yourself that it is there is to have something obvious hanging
        from it that would be VERY visible if you were to start making a
        fire.
                
                /s/     Bob

    I did what .17 has suggested and if seems to work for me. I took
    a piece of 1" polyst. rigid insulation, cut it to fit the upper
    cavity of the firebox (this is the only hard part). I then push
    the light weight panel up into the top of the firebox and keep it
    up there by oak bows. The oak (could be just about any wood) are
    ripped about 1/4" thick, about 1,1/2" wide and slightly wider then
    the firebox so when you install them they push against the sides
    of the firebox, supporting both themselves and the insulation panel
    about them. The bow nearest the back wall of the firebox is shorter
    then the one closer to the opening (most fireboxes taper towards
    the back, thus the shorter lenght. Now the only thing you see when
    you look at the fireplace is two narrow, slightly bowed piece of
    wood near the very top of the opening (hardly noticeable). If this
    seems unclear, I'd be happy to explain it better over the phone.
    Give me a call at DTN 264-2655. BTY total cost is about $3.
    
    Bill D.
    		

Suppose I wanted to buy a new set of glass doors.

nothing fancy - just something that, if caulked in properly, really 
SEALED when it was closed.  Can anyone give me a pointer (maybe 
there's a FIREPLACES notesfile?) or a place to shop?

    There is a wood stove conference...TERPIN::stoves (sorry, I don't
    know how to make it so you can do KP7)
    There might be some info in there.
    Have you checked the local fireplace shops?  THere is a small one
    in Chelmsford, a slightly larger one in Billerica, an even bigger
    one in Peabody/Danvers...and LOTS of others I'm sure.  I would think
    they could give you good advice on doors, sealing, etc.
    
    

    Re: .19
    
    Hudson isn't that far from Worcester so you might want to take a ride
    into National Glass on Park Ave. We got a screen there that was just
    what we were looking for and the had the most complete selection of any
    of the places we looked. (Visa/MC/AmEx helps delay the pain too)

    I own a house with 2 fireplaces.  The house is about 15 years old,
    and the chimneys have the same construction (from what I can see.)
    One of the fireplaces continuously gives off a bad odor, unlike
    the other one.  I have put a fireplace glass front up and the 
    smell continues.  I checked the flue and they both close about
    the same amount.  (there is a small gap in each and they don't
    fully close.)  The only difference I've noticed between the
    2 fireplaces is that the chimney is shorter on the one that 
    smells, but not by much.
    
    Does anyone know why this might be giving off the odor, and
    could someone recommend a mason or someone I could call
    to look at it?  I live in the Maynard, Mass. area.
    
    		Beth

    Sounds like you might have an animal that crawled in just above
    the smokeshelf and died.
    
    Or, the previous owner may have burned junk and or pine and there
    is a lot of creosote buildup in the flue.  If you notice it
    particularly in damp or rainy weather, I'd bet it's the latter.
    
    Sounds like a good time to get a chimney sweep in for a cleaning
    or at least an inspection if you can't do that yourself.

    
    RE: .0
    
    I saw something at Spag's for fireplaces odors.  Fireplace deodorant!
    What will they think of next?!
    
    But as .1 suggests, cleaning might be the best solution.
    
    Phil

    
    Jeff,
    
    My fireplace sounds similar to yours. We moved into this house in
    the winter and found a wicked draft from the fireplace opening.
    We bought a glass door/screen unit from Sears. It made a dramatic 
    difference. I don't remember what we paid but it was on sale and I 
    think it was under $100.  As I recall, it overlaps the opening of the 
    fireplace by ~ 3-5" so we could put insulation around the inside edges 
    (the insulation came with the unit)
                                         
    Kathy
    

    alas, we had the chimney cleaned late last spring by Master
    Chimney Sweeps.  We have also put a cap on the chimney.  I
    will check for dead something or others....but the smell is
    more of wet ash, not dead carcass....
    
    thanks for the suggestions!
    

    We have a separate ash pit under ours that has a small door from the
    firebox down into the pit. It has an outside access door for cleaning.
    It could be something like this that also needs to be cleaned out.

    You mentioned you already have glass doors so you may have to modify
    the idea buy putting it inside the firebox behind the glass doors.
    
    At my parents house we built a square frame out of 1x2's.  Since the
    fireplace has a slight arch we added another piece on top cut to match
    the arch.  We then stapled clear plastic to both sides of the frame.
    (At the time the window shrink insulation kits were not available but
    might make a good choice now.)  We then put some door casing/molding
    on the edges.  We push the affair in so that the 1x2 frame is inside
    the fireplace and the molding acts as a stop.  We cut a small notch
    in the molding so that we could insert a finger to pull the "Double
    Pane" Fireplace Screen out of the fireplace when using the fireplace.

    The molding is stained to match the woodwork in the room.  The 1x2's
    are painted black/brown and against the firebox you don't notice
    them.  My mother keeps a free standing glass screen in front of
    the fireplace so that you don't notice the molding.

       On my fireplace at  home, I have the typical folding glass doors
    with the wire mesh screen behind. This past weekend, I had an average
    fire burning. The glass doors were closed when suddenly one of the
    glass panes shattered! There were small kids around at the time,
    we were lucky no one was hurt.
    
       I doesn't look like something struck the glass from the inside
    because the whole pane went at once. The doors came with the house
    and I don't know the make. Has this happened to anyone else?  I
    wish to replace all the glass panes. I would appreciate advice on 
    what type of glass to buy and where.
    
    Thanks,
    
    -Paul

    I've heard of it happening with many types of glass/fire interactions
    including "special" glasses used in the front of wood/coal stoves. The
    usual theory I hear is that the hot glass is shattered by something
    cold, such as a cold breeze or opening the doors when hot. 
    
    You might try posting this in TERPIN::STOVES for some additional info. 

I own two MAJESTIC fireplaces.  Both came standard with glass doors with 
screen behind.  In the owners guide it explains how the glass is specially 
tempered, however, it will break if a hot fire is burning and the logs are
at the front of hearth.  It recommends keeping log on the back two-thirds of 
grate.

Your glass doors might have been an after thought.  Some of the cheaper 
MAJESTIC models do not recommend closing doors while burning ( even with 
outside air duct).

         That happened to me a couple years ago.  I think I had logs
         too close to the glass which ran the glass' temperature to or
         beyond the limit.  I opened one door and POW! POW! ... both
         panes exploded.

         I went to a glass company and was quoted about $60/pane (each
         about 1 square foot) for pyrex glass.  I then searched out
         the manufacturer of the doors, Bennett-Ireland, and they
         shipped my two panes at about $15 each.  I have been more
         careful since and everything's been fine.

         If you find that your doors are manufactured by
         Bennet-Ireland, their telephone number is 800.847.9957.

    My instructions also say to not close the doors when the fire is
    "hot".  Since they don't give you a thermometer or define what "hot"
    is, I take it to mean that glass doors are mainly to help keep things
    clean and/or reduce draft only when the fireplace is not in use.

    i'm designing  a house , and can not find enough information on
    the supporting structures for a fireplace/chimney
    
    the foundation will be a full basement , a simple 36x28 rectangle. 
    
    the fire place will be on an outside wall, and will probably  be
    a zero clearance type . i have not desided whether the chimney will
    be a brick chimney, or a double metal flue, surrounded by a wood
    frame and sided. mostly due to the fact that i have yet to bid the
    price for a 25 ' high brick chimney ( the thought of the price tag
    scares me.)
    
    i'm also not interested in the ash dump hole on the floor of the
    fireplace, unless of course you get it for free due to the design
    of the foundation to support a fireplace and chimney

    any help with the design or a pointer to a good book with the info
    would be greatly appreciated.
    
    btw i have several books on design , and architectural specs, but
    they do not give me enough info.

You'll need to make the decision on whether you're going brick or wood before 
you know what the foundation will need.  A brick chimney will require a full 
foundation, usually just done as a jog in the house foundation.  The inside 
wall of the chimney foundation is usually laid up out of concrete block.  A 
wood chimney doesn't need any additional foundational support, but you may want 
to put the jog in the foundation anyway, so it follows the outline of the 
chimney.

One thing:  Particularly if you decide to go with brick, have the mason put in 
an extra flue with an opening in the basement.  It will only cost a couple of 
hundred bucks (noise when you're building a whole house), and it will be 
invaluable if you or anyone else ever wants to have a woodstove or other heat 
source in the basement.

Paul

    does any one have a ball park figure on the cost of a brick chimney  .
    
    it will be 2 flues, one fireplace, and one furnace/hot water heater.
    
    it will be about 25 feet tall .
    
    this will help me determine which way i should go.
    
    thanks

    
    
       I am in the process of modular home hunting and have been quoted
    a price of $4,000 - $5,000 for a brick fireplace.
    
    
    Rick

    that price is for the fireplace and the chimney ??
    
    tony

    
    
      I am 99% sure it includes both, however, I will check into it.

Our 2-flue chimney, with fireplace and hearth, was $4400 (give or take $100).
This was in inside sort-of-central chimney, used for our oil burner in the
cellar and our fire-place-with-a-wood-stove-stuck-in-it in the living room.

So, (if I remember .0's scenario correctly) what you may save in not going to
the cellar, may be more than made up for with the full brick all the way up
the outside.  I think I remember one mason saying that, as a rule, external
chimneys (bricked) are more expensive than internal ones.

FWIW, our coming-out-of-the-roof chimney was a good size - 40" x 48" I think.
The mason said he'd never put one that big on a house our size (28x36 cape).

    Last spring I thought I could have my chimney repointed, and
    a couple of feet added to make it higher than the roof of an
    addition I had put up...to make a long story short...no go..
    So, I had to have it torn down to just below the roof line, and
    completely redone. It had only one flue, lining for the new part,
    plus as much of the old part as could be reached, and extended
    about 15feet I'd say.  cost $2900.
    
    deb
    

    well, i was finally able to get a hold a  mason to get an 
    estimate on the chimney i wanted, ( this does not include a fireplace)
    he wanted $6,800 dollars, for the brick work. 
    
    this helped me decide on not going with a brick chimney. i will
    be getting a zero clearence fireplace, and building a chase ( wooden
    box around a triple wall metal flue, ) covered with the same siding
    as the house. 
    
    at least that is the current plan. i will be talking to a builder
    to see what he has to say.
    
    i now wonder , how do you insulate the fireplace so that when you
    are not using it , cold air does not come into the house.
    
    any suggestions ( i don't think a damper has a good R value )
    
    tony

    Having just put in a ZCF from scratch for about $1300 including
    finishing materials - I'd say go for it.
    
    There is no difference between a ZCF and conventional fireplace
    as far as losing heat up the flue goes.  My ZCF has a pretty tight-
    fitting damper.  Firescreen doors also help.
    

    Why even bother with the chase?  It's only purpose seems to be
    esthetic, and even there it's questionable.  The jog in the wall for
    the chace is going to look like an add-on, while a shiny stainless
    steel chimney looks good on modern construction (even modern versions
    of traditional styles).  I suppose that if you're trying to capture the
    look of an older New England home, the add-on look of the chace
    will fit right in.  For that matter, have you considered putting
    a brick facade over it?  (I have no idea whether that's feasible.)
    
    You may also want to consider moving the fireplace to the interior.
    In the long run, that will be cheaper.  It's more energy efficient,
    since some of the heat going up the chimney will transfer into the
    house.  Since the temperature of an interior chimney will be higher,
    you'll get less condensation of creosote, and therefore less corrosion.
    The previous owners of our house altered the design when they built
    the house, by moving the chimney from the center to the north exterior,
    just to get a TV nook and some more closet space.  In my opinion,
    that was a horrible mistake, since it not only loses heat, but also
    makes it difficult to have a reasonable furniture layout.
    
       Gary

    re .8  $6800.
    
    I think you found a mason who doesn't really want to do the job. I had
    a top-notch mason build a good size single flue 30' outside brick
    chimney for $2000 last October. If you need a double flue it would be
    somewhat more, but I doubt it would be anywhere near $6800. The cost of
    a triple wall steel with a wood chase will probably be about $1k - much
    less, but they only last 10 years. 
        
    The best place to put any chimney is inside the house where it stays
    warm year round. This helps with starting fires, with cresote build
    up, and returns more heat to the house. You can use either concrete
    block or steel pipe. The blocks can become bricks for the portion
    that extends aboce the roof. For pipe, you can buy some fairly good
    fake brick boxes (hard to tell from 25' away) or build a wood chase
    above the roofline - depending on the style of house. 
                                  

    re: .-2

    Yeah, except the bottom part of a ZCF is pretty ugly and needs to
    be weather protected anyway.  You could stop the chase after the
    firebox and have flue exposed, I suppoes.    
    
        
    re: .-1
    
    You don't need triple wall in a chase.  Double wall is fine.  I
    can't believe it will cost $1K.  Double wall ASHT flue is about
    $75 per 3' segment.

    
    Could these wild price variations be due to geography?  Where are
    you $2000 and $6800 people located???  Either way, you'd want to
    get more than 1 estimate before ruling it out.

    i don't know if this is true or not but the guy at the fireplace
    store said something about the triple wall pipe was to prevent 
    condensation on the fireplace metal facing.
    
    anyone have any good zcf brand names ?
    
    i'm looking for something that is somewhat efficient, with
    external air for cumbustion, glass doors and a blower fan.
    
    everyone seems to carry the same brand ( name escapes me right now
    Marcal ??? maybe)
    
    the fireplace is on the outside wall for a couple of reasons:
    - the house will have a hip roof with a widow's walk on top ( for lake
    views), therefore i can not have the fireplace in the middle.
    
    - i also thought that the layout of the  living room would be much
    better that way.
    
    
    thanks for all the replies so far.
    
    btw... any one know the best way to have access to a widow's walk
           on the center of a hip roof,  from an attic ???? 

    re .13 location of 2K chimney 
    	- mason from Worcester, MA area
        - I did get estimates that were up to 1k higher (for what would
    	  have been a lesser chimney) 
    
    re .12 double vs. triple
        - there are "double" and "triple" wall pipes that will do the
          job, either way the price of $ 75. / 3 ft sounds about right.
    	  In the 1K estimate I was thinking of a comparison to my 
          30' brick at 2k. I also included all the assorted parts like a 
    	  through the wall kit, clamps and brackets, fake brick top, etc. 
          You may not need all of this stuff and can estimate your own
    	  cost almost exactly if visit a local shop and get a price list.
    
    re .? look of stainless pipe vs. brick or chase
          
    	  I agree that it's a matter of personal taste. My home is a
    	  colonial cape and I think that a 30' tower of stainless would
          reduce value, where brick adds it. On another type of house
    	  with a different installation it might look fine. 
    

   I just bought two MAJESTIC Warm Magic II  ZCFs.  I did do lots of
    leg work deciding the brand/model.  Once I found the brand/model
    I did lots of leg work shopping for price.  Be carefull, don't buy
    it retail,  Most furnace suppliers also sell fireplaces.  Find a
    supplier that sells your brand.  If the supplier says we only sell
    to contracters than do one of two things,  find another supplier
    that will sell you the ZCF (there are many) or have some business
    cards printed as a home remodeler  (covers all trades) for $15.
    I got 47% off of list price.
    
    If you buy a MAJESTIC the manual will answer most of your questions.
    IE: insulating chase, raised hearth, etc; 10 foot rule, use of flue
    elbows, chase width.
    
    Triple or double?
    You will not have a choice,  when you decide which brand/model
    ZCF you will also buy that ZCFs flue system.  Some have triple some
    have double.  Majestic builder models (cheap) are double walled
    and the better ones (outside air, one touch damper control, blower
    use triple wall.  The ZCF have been certified by a couple of
    institutions (UL,HVI,?) being safe.  Any modification voids
    manufacturers safe claim and warranty.
    
    Don't buy a ZCF with fans,  they are very noisey.  Buy one with
    a blower (MAJESTICs is variable speed and very quiet).

    now that i see the name MAJESTIC , that is in fact what i've been
    looking at.
    
    i've been looking at the rc36 model, just a builder's box model.
    is the Warm Magic II  ZCF  more like a wood stove model ???
    how much did it cost you , and where did you get it ???
    
    i was assuming that a blower and a fan are the same. although since
    i've been looking at a majestic, it's probably a blower.
    
    as far as that person getting a price of $2000 for a 30' exterior
    chimney, that is hard to believe, considering the price i've got
    and the other prices in these notes, but more power to you.
    
    thanks for all the help.....
    any other brands to concider, the only brand i've seen for zcf is
    majestic...
    
    
    tony

Price is one of those things that varies greatly. When we built we used a mason
who was a full time fireman (3 days on 4 off) and he gave us a price 25% below
our other bids. We went and looked at his work and liked it and used him. When 
asked why he was so much cheaper he said, "I'm only part time so I'll give a 
price break on my labor for people willing to work with my schedule." He did a
great job and didn't hold up any of the other subs.

Keep shopping, You'll find better deals

    
> as far as that person getting a price of $2000 for a 30' exterior
    
    You can call this guy if you wish, see note 2017.24. This was top
    quality work from a top quality contractor. The final chimney was 2.5
    bricks x 3 bricks by 30 ' with an 8 x 12 flue. This was a chimney, not
    a fireplace and chimney. I should mention that I dug the hole for the
    footing, removed the siding from the house, cut the hole for the flue
    pipe thru the wall section, put up the finish trim and did the
    caulking. All told about a day's work on my part. 
    
    Other estimates I got ranged from $2200 (for a 2 brick x 2 space needle
    "no you don't need a permit" type of guy), to $2800 from a firm that
    seemed qualfied but didn't leave me with a warm fuzzy feeling. 

    Prices from masons vary quite a bit depending on the time of year and
    how much work that mason has going on. If you catch a guy who's
    currently doing 10 fireplaces in a new development at the same time
    he's going to be $$$. Also, time of year has a lot to do with prices.
    When I called the $2800 firm in Oct 87, I got a quote of " $4-5k and we
    really don't want to do it, this is our busy time of year". I asked
    when things were slow and I was told "summer") I took the hint and put
    off the chimney until the next August. Sure enough, the prices dropped.
                                            

I'm installing a zero-clearance gas fireplace.  I've had the gas line installed,
put the direct-vent pipe thru the wall, and framed an enclosure around it.  I
had the gas company inspector come and he "recommended" that an opening be
made (hinged or whatever) to access gas shut-off, etc.  I'm going to finish
putting plywood around it, then face it with marble tiles.  I want to do what's
right before enclosing it completely.  Any suggestions?

Steve

    one piece of the glasses in the fire place enclosure was broken.
    
    anybody has experience as how to repair it? should i contact
    glass company? or fire place company? (i called one and it came
    out something like over 100 to replace a 10"x20" glass).
    
    is it my only alternatives?   thank you very much.

    Try a local glass company.  The glass needs to be a certain
    thickness and also tempered, due to the high temperatures.
    
    Mike
    

    
    There's a place in Salem NH that sells stoves, and they advertise
    that they will custom make glass for your stove. I forget the name
    of the place. It's right on 28 next to the Honda dealer.
    
    Mike

    I'm not too surprised with your quote of $100.  There are two types
    of glass you could use: tempered or pyro-ceran (sp?).  Tempered must
    be cut before "tempering", and is supposedly less likely to withstand
    the high temperatures of a wood-stove.  Pyro-ceran is the glass of
    choice, since it will take the heat better, more $$ of course!  I got
    mine custom cut through Chelmsford Woodstove - they ordered it from a
    glass company in Dayton, Ohio...  Price for 2 pieces 8"x 4" = $50.
    
    I realize you have a fireplace enclosure, so the Pyro-ceran may be
    over-kill, but a call to to the Chelmsford store might give you
    more educated information.

The same thing happened to mine.  A local glass store wanted about $60 for one
piece of glass (don't remember the exact dimensions but it was about one square
foot).  The manufacturer sold me two pieces for $12!

Pete

    A vacation home is in the planning stages. It is mostly
    for summertime but it  will be used somewhat during  
    winter. I want a fireplace but they are expensive for
    occaisonal use. For stone I have been quoted $6000.
    
    Is there a cheaper alternative that gives me that open
    flame crackling fire ?   

Our fireplace cost in the low $4000's.  This is a central fireplace, so the only
bricks were in the hearth, fireplace and above the roof.  An exterior chimney,
whether brick or stone, is a lot more expensive than an interior one.  'Course,
you lose use-able floor space.

(I reply even tho I have a hunch one of our moderators may write-lock this
note.  I think this is covered in (one) other note(s).)

    yeah, i think there are notes around here on the alternatives to
    'real' fireplaces...try a "zero clearance" style.  Gives you the
    crackling flames, same size, same look, just packaged in one piece,
    no extra stuff needed, will go right into standard sheetrock walls,
    etc. 
    
    deb
    

This note has been temporarily write-locked pending approval of the author.

To the author:  This subject is already under discussion in this file, under the
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Paul [Moderator]

     
    Our fireplace border used to be painted bricks (white). We stripped 
    the paint off because it had lead in it. Now the bricks look terrible. 
    One way we think about doing is put tiles over those bricks. 
    
    Questions:
    
    1. Is there a special type of tiles for fireplace (around) or is it the
       same as what people use in bathroom ?
    
    2. What would one suggest on "how" to get this done (ie. put 
       tiles over bricks ?
    
    3. Is this easy enough to be DIY job ?
    
    Thanks for any comments/suggestions. 

    If you only stripped the paint off because of lead, why not paint it
    again? Sounds simplest to me.
    
    On the other hand, regarding tile, if you had paint there previously,
    there certainly would be no problem with putting tile up, at least as
    far as heat is concerned. Your most significant effort will probably be
    putting on some kind of plaster coat to make the surface even enough to
    mount the tiles.
    

Hi,

I'm curious if any of you have had experiences with gas logs for a fireplace?

I have a regular wood burning fireplace but these logs caught my curiosity
when I visited a home center warehouse recently.

Don't get me wrong ... I love the fireplace as is, but several shoppers at the
home center told me that they have them and that they love them and they prefer
the efficiency and convenience over wood.

I'm curious if they really are *that* good since I saw no titles in this 
conference referencing gas logs.

Any info would be appreciated 

thanks

Manny

    A gas log is a imitation log built out of a fire proof material,
    pottery type composition.  The "logs" look like real logs, or as close
    as imitations can, and are setup with a gas dispenser underneath.  The
    gas burns and produces flames which look like the logs are burning.
    Kits are sold which look like ash which you put under the grate.  The
    ashes do not burn but glow like embers from the heat generated by the gas
    burning.

    These imitation fires can look very real if setup correctly ($$$).  To
    make a setup look like a real fire can run $1000 but you never have to
    split, haul or store wood.  You never have to warm the flue or haul out
    the ashes.  When you want a fire, you turn on the gas, throw a match at
    it and enjoy the ambience.  When you go to bed, you turn off the gas,
    no muss, no fuss.

    My dad put one of these in his house and he loves the convenience.  My
    mother hates it because "its not a real fire."  She never had to build
    the fire, split the wood, haul the wood, clean out the ashes, etc. 
    When my parents got divorced, my mother kept the house and took out the
    gas fire logs.  She also never has any fires.

    
    Anyone have anymore about these gelled alcohol "fireplaces"?  I was
    looking at them in the Sears catalog the other day.
    
    I have an insulated porch-type addition I just finished, and have been 
    thinking about heat sources.  The room is 12x16, with about a 12'
    peaked ceiling.  Sears has a freestanding gelled alcohol fireplace
    that it rates at 9000 BTU, which would be just about perfect.  My only
    concern is operating cost.  They sell cases of the fuel for about
    $2.00 a can.  How much heat can I get out of one can?
    
    Are they really safe like the catalog claims?
    
    -gary
    

    
    
    
    Does "gelled Alcohol" translate to "Sterno"? If it does think of the
    local caterer's warming dish. That is sterno/gelled/jellied alcohol.

I saw these at Building 19 in Manchester recently.  They wanted under $20
for them, I think.  The fuel appeared to be like Sterno, but if so, it would
burn with an almost clear flame which would not be very realistic.  Also,
there would likely be little heat radiated into the room.

				Steve

.2 describes what I meant by "gas logs". I'm surprise that most DIY noters
that read this conference have not heard of these things.

The most expensive ones I've seen are about $250 and these look *very*
real but I'm more interested in personal experiences rather than looks.

Anyone else know anything else about these? So far it looks like most 
users of these logs have been very happy with them.

If no one else reports, I'll probably go ahead and get them and report
back once I have a "personal experience".

Thanks

Manny

    
    
    Boy am I glad you asked the question... I have been considering the gas
log alternative for about five years but did not have the good sense to
make an inquiry in notes. I have priced them, admired them and do like
what I have seen.....

My big unanswered questions regard installation.

    Does a plumber do it ?
    How do they run the gas into an existing fireplace ?
    Would the install cost more than the log unit ?

Don't ya just love when people reply to note inquiries with additional
questions...

    When my dad had our fireplace converted, the professional (I don't
    remember whether he was a plumber or what) drilled a hole from the
    outside of the chimney into the firebox.  A 3/8 inch copper line was
    run from a near by gas line into the fireplace.  On the line near the
    wall inside the fireplace was a value which was operated by a hex
    key.  After the value was a short piece of pipe which ended in a
    "disperser of the gas".  It looked very much like the units used in gas
    grills.  We had a grate so the gas disperser rested on the grate.  

    We then arranged the logs in an artful display.  The log kit we used
    included two larger ones, 2 ft. in length and around 4-6 inch in
    diameter.  Actually, they were D shaped.  The flat portion of the D was
    the back side of the log and allowed the flames to come up between the
    front log and the back log.  The kit also included 4 small "branches",
    6-8 inches in length and 1 1/4 in diameter.  Two of the branches had
    holes as if a knot had been knocked out.  If you placed them correctly,
    flame would shot out of the hole.

    In my dad's new house, he has some fake ashes.  I believe they are
    asbestos.  The kit also included something which looked a lot like
    steel wool.  I believe the steel wool is stretched out and then
    partly covered with the asbestos.  The heat causes the steel wool to
    glow like live ashes under dry ash.  I don't know if the steel wool
    has to be replaced periodically.

    I'm curious - can such an installation be reversed by just pulling out
    the gas line and patching the hole with some suitable substance?  Or
    does this conversion forever render the fireplace unusable for real fires?
    
    It seems to me that some fairly stringent codes and construction
    practices rightly apply to a fireplace's firebox, and that drilling a
    good-sized hole into it could compromise it irreparably.  Something to
    think about if you're not entirely sure a gas log is for you, or if you
    hope to use the fireplace as a selling point someday.

    Re: .5 Pretty well describes our installation.  One minor nit; there is
    no asbestos!! We have some ceramic "ashes", some mica chip and a few
    strands of fibreglass, which glow in the heat.
    
    Our house in Colo Spgs is a two-story Colonial on a full basement and
    the family room is on a slab behind the three car garage adjecent to
    the two-story part.  We had a licensed plumber run a line from the gas
    furnace in the basement, under the deck, up the side of the family
    room, around the corner to the fireplace, thru the side of the
    fireplace.  Colo Spgs code requires a key operated positive shut off
    no less that 3' from the fireplace opening.  We bought the log, on
    sale, from a fireplace supply shop and contracted with the plumber
    seperately. The gas line runs about 60 lineal feet.  All in all the
    whole thing came to just under $600.  We love it!!! Cold mornings turn
    on the fireplace to take the chill off.  No mess.  We've had it in
    since March '89 and have used it a great deal since mid-Oct.  Haven't
    noticed a significant difference in the monthly gas bill.
    
    Re: .6 It is no problem to remove the gas log and convert back to a
    regular wood fireplace with the added convenience of having gas there
    to help start the fire. 
    
    In many places in Colorado, there are days of bad inversions, and the
    beginning of burning restrictions.  I suspect that in the next 2-3
    years, Colo Spgs will have very restrictive ordinances.  
    
    Chuck
    

    If anyone is interested in one, TECHNO::CLASSIFIED_ADS has one for
    sale.  It's brand new, $60.  See note 22252 over there.
    
    Lee

    
    While brousing in a local store that specializes in fireplaces and
    fireplace accessories, I saw the ultimate gadget for the resident couch
    potato:  A set of gas fire logs that operate by REMOTE CONTROL!  Yes
    folks, you can sit on your *** (insert couch or other appropriate word
    here) and turn your gas fire on or off, up or down by wireless remote.
    
    Believe it or not.
    
    Jim

    
    Re: .9
    
    Now I'm sure mankind is headed for extinction! :-}
    

    I need some tips on installing a fireplace mantel. How do you
    hold it to the wall ?
    
    I have a brick fireplace front. I have removed the old mantel
    and purchased a 4x8x8' piece of rough cedar to replace it with.
    
    The top of the mantel is a single row of brick, with a 1x4 nailed
    with masonary nails to the cement between the bricks. This sticks out
    from the wall about 4 inches. The wall is covered with, newly
    installed, 6x8 tounge and grove cedar boards. The mantel  has been
    routed out 1 1/4 inches so it fits over the 1x4 and over the brick
    alittle too.
    
    The ways suggested to hold this new mantel are :
    
    1. drill holes in the top of the mantel and insert long screws
    that would go into the studs in the wall. Pluging the holes later.
    I really don't want to drill holes into the top of the mantel but
    the screws would pull it tight against the wall.
    
    2. Drill holes in the wall into the studs about 2 inches,
    and holes into the back of the mantel piece. Then glue dowl rods
    into the holes to hold it. Sounds like the best bet to me.
    
    Anyone else have any other ideas ?
    
    Mark
    

    I vote for suggestion #2, using 5/8" threaded rod epoxied into the
    holes.
    

    I used number 2 to add mantels to my Brick wall.. the only varation was
    I used 4' lag screws and anchors and cut the heads off the screws.
    
    Drill holes just under the dia. of the screws in the back of the mantels.
    Then pressed the mantel on the lag screws!
    
    Believe me they are solid!!
    
    
    Don

    
    
    	...I have an older copy of WOOD magazine that shows some solutions.
    Mail me your mailstop and I'll send you a copy.
    
    Gary
    

    I agree!!  4 FOOT! lag screws should hold anything!!!

    .3 Thanks - I sent you my mail stop.
    
    .4 I agree, 4 foot, wow. I could use the extra as parallel bars :-)
    
    I will use method # 2 unless anything unique is in the Wood Mag..
    I just hope there are studs behind there. I'll have to do some testing
    to find out. Fool me forgot to mark them before putting up the cedar
    panels, now the stud finder can not locate them. 
    
    Thanks 
    Mark

I've got a room in the basement that I'm refinishing.  It has a
nice brick fireplace with a real ugly mantle.  It's just a plain
old painted pine plank (3 times fast).  Need ideas on how to make
it look better.  Willing to DIY or even break down and buy something
if it's not too expensive.
Thanks,
John...

    	Suggestion....
    
    	Strip the planks as best you can. Find some "old" looking scolled
    wood, or some decorative woodwork, carvings etc. that could be screwed
    or glued to the mantle. Then find some ballisters for staircasings
    and rip them lengthways and glue/screw to the side faces. carefully
    fill in the spaces with wood putt and allow to set for a couple
    of days. Then paint it carefully. Will have a nice "look" to it
    and shouldn't cost more than $50 for everything including the paint.
    
    	OR
    
    	Go to/call some of these places that sell used stuff from houses
    that were demo'd. There's one in Worcester and some in Boston. They
    may have a mantle you can buy. You'll have to measure the opening
    and the planking to be sure it fits.
    
    Good Luck
    
    Ken

    Well it's complete.
    
    I put 2 6" lad screws into the studs at either end 1" above the brick
    face. (there where no studs in the middle). Marked to head of the 
    screws with a black crayon and push the mantel against them. This 
    gave me marks where to drill my holes, into the back of the mantel.
    
    The fit was perfect. To date I have nothing else holding the mantel
    up. Seems pretty secure too. Someday I'll pull it back off and
    use some liquid nail or something to secure it to the header on
    top of brick.
    
    The new carpet is installed, new kithchen floor too. Alittle molding
    here and there and it's complete.
    
    Thanks for you help.
    
    mark         Now let me see, what room is next... hmmmmmmm

    Has anyone installed one of these gel buringing fireplaces?  I am
    planning for this winter and was thinking of installing a free standing
    fireplace on my 3-Season porch.  Any information would be helpful.
    
    
    						Rob.

    Make sure the gel stuff is OK with your family - some percentage of the
    population (including me) is allergic to the chemical that makes the
    alcohol congeal like that.
    
    /Charlotte

    
    	I'm replacing our mantel but found an interesting situation.  The
    old mantel was made out of 6x8 (yes, it was big...) material and every
    winter we've had a lot of cold air coming from around it.  I took the
    mantel out and found the source of the cold air -- there is around a 1.5
    to 2 inch gap between the "bottom" of the sheetrock and the top row of
    fireplace bricks.  I've temporarily covered over the gap with duct
    tape.  (We aren't using the fireplace at present, so I'm not worried
    about any near-term fire hazards.)  Before I put on the next mantel,
    which will probably be made out of 2x stock, what can I do to seal that
    gap without incuring a fire hazard when we are using the fireplace?
    *Is* there any fire hazard having the sheetrock come all the way down
    to the fireplace bricks or was this just another short-cut done by the
    builder to cut down on the finish-work time since he knew it would be
    covered (visually, not thermally... :-( by the huge mantel?
    
    	Thanks!
    
    							-craig

    You could use Wonderboard instead of sheetrock.  It is cement between
    fiberglass screen.  It is commonly used for underlayment behind tile
    work because it is not effected by water.  It is fireproof.  You might
    want to check into materials accepted for use around wood stoves. 
    These would meet the fire proofness and might be able to fit your need
    as an insulator.
    

	Re: .8

	Thanks, I'll check out the Wonderboard stuff.

							-c

The gap between the brick and sheetrock should not be a problem the firebox 
and flue are independant of the sheetrock and mantle the gaps to worry about
are between bricks.  See below.


   | F |
   | l |
   | u |    | 
   | e  \   |
   |     \  | 
   |      \ |
   |       |\__is this the gap?
   |
   |
   |firebox
   |_______
  

	Re: .10

	Yes, that's it exactly.  What it is that you are saying shouldn't be
a problem -- the usage of sheetrock all the way down to the bricks?

								-c

The sheetrock shoulden't be a problem where it is but if the gap were large
 enough there might be cause for concern about a stray ember entering the
gap.

-j

	Well, its been a while since someone wrote in this note, so
	I'll start it up again.

	I'm finishing up the installation of a zero-clearance fireplace.
	I bought the optional air intake kit.  This takes outside air
	and feeds it to the fire chamber.  In the instruction book it says 
	the air duct must be made out of a Class 1 material.   My question
	is what is a Class 1 rated material?  Is this the plastic vent
	tube used on most driers?

	Thanks
	Bill

I just had a majestic (sp?) zero clearance installed.  The installer used 
flexible metal ductwork for the air intake.  He had to go to my local hardware
store to get it, since he ran out of it.  

Class 1, I think, is something that won't burn.  Plastic vent will burn.

	Thats right, its a Majestic.  The fireplace shop I bought it from
	said to use the plastic vent, I'm just not too comfortable using
	it.  They say that you can use the plastic stuff because only
	cool outside air is brought through the pipe.  My only concern
	is what happens if some smoldering ash happens to get inside
	the tube.  Highly unlikely, but I'd rather be safe than sorry.

	Guess I'll go out and get the flexible metal ductwork.

	Thanks

    i have the same type of fire place ...
    
    the installer used the plastic type ...
    
    we have had it for a couple of years with no problems
    
    tony

the end of the air intake by the firebox has some type of screen that should
block any sparks.  However, note that majestic repeatedly mentions that if you
use materials not specified by them, and you have a problem the guarantee is
null and void.  Also, if by some chance you had a fire, your insurance company
could potentially point to the plastic air intake as being improper and refuse
to pay a claim.  

ps.

If you're looking for something for a hearth, you may want to try Precourt Stone
in Sudbury (on Union ave).  They have nice granite (~ $60 sq. ft), bluestone
(~ $15 sq. ft.), marble, slate, and limestone.  I spoke with Charlie (the owner,
I think) about doing a raised hearth of bluestone.  He drew me a diagram of how
to best build my framing so that I will get a tight joint between the bluestone
and the tile I'm using on the rise of the hearth.  He also gave me a sample to
bring home.

	Let me preface this note by saying that in 20 years of helping
	out with my parents fireplace fires,  I never felt a need for
	a pair of fireplace tongs so when I got a pair for Christmas,  I
	wasn't overly excited.  A poker and a shovel always seemed to 
	be enough.  I also wasn't to excite about the shiny brass log 
	cradle since I thought a cardboard box from the liquor store 
	worked just as good.
	
	Well,  I decided to have a fire the other night.  I used the
	fireplace a couple of times before ( new house ) and had no
	problems.
	
	It was a nicely built fire too.  Newspaper then kindling and then
	some bigger logs - almost a work of art....
	
	So I lit the fire.  A little smoke started coming in the house.
	I thought,  oh well,  it'll clear up in a moment.
	
	Then there was a little more and little more and then A LOT MORE!!
	It wouldn't stop!  Within minutes the top half of my living room
	was filled with smoke.  I checked the flu - it was open.
	
	I opened the back door,  the front door,  the side door,  the
	front windows, the side windows.  I closed the bedroom doors
	and turned the heat all the way down ( forced hot air. )
	
	The house cleared out a bit.  I could breath.  Smoke continued to
	pour into the house.  Sparks and ashes rose toward the ceiling...
	
	Hmmm,  I thought,  maybe I just created a perfectly good draft
	through my house and if I close everything,  the smoke would
	eventually start going up the chimney...
	
	So I ran around closing the windows and doors.  Moments after I closed
	the last door,  the smoke filled the living room down to about 3 feet
	above the floor.  I ripped open the back door and took a breath
	of fresh air.  This was not working....
	
	OK,  sports fans,  what's the correct solution to this problem....??
	The fire is still buring,  nothing appears to going up the chimney
	and the house is still filling with smoke.  
	

	Well,  after running around the house again,   opening up all
	the doors and windows,  I decided to THROW THE FIRE OUT THE BACK
	DOOR!
	
	I grabbed a pot holder,  my handy dandy Christmas tongs and my new
	shiny brass cradle and reached into the fire for the first log.
	Whipping slowly ( can you do that? ) around and I headed for the
	back door.  Sssssshhhhhh went the first log as it hit the snow - 
	and the second and the third and all those nicely stacked kindling 
	pieces.
	
	The fire soon died out.  I spent the next 3 hours with the windows
	open ( 15 degrees outside ) and the heat cranked and walking around
	with a fan.
	
	It's a couple of days later now and my house still has a lingering
	smell of smoke,  the ashes have been cleaned off the furniture and
	nothing seems to be damaged.
	
	The cause of this nonsense?  Well,  it appears that there's still
	about 8" of snow and ice sitting neatly, unscathed on the top of
	my chimney!
	
	Would a chimney cap avoid this?  Any other ways? 
	
	Garry

I, too have a fireplace (with a wood stove insert) that will smoke me out upon
startup if I'm not careful.  My problem is a downdraft down the chimney before
it gets warmed up.  It gets worse the colder it is outside (cold air is denser,
so it sinks) 

To start my cold stove on a cold day, I have to cram newspapers up the flue
opening and light them before I even think of starting the main fire.  Even
this causes some smoke as the air comes down the chimney.  Ever see upside down
flames?

The shift from reverse chimney to normal is fairly sudden, and once the chimney
starts working, it works great.

I think part of my problem is I have a large flue.

-Mike

    It seems you have figured out the problem of the blocked chimney.  I am
    glad you were able to remove the fire from the house before any more
    damage could occur.  
    
    It sounds like you did the best thing you could with the time frame you
    had.  Just remember, 911 is for emergencies and you had one.  The fire
    department would rather come out and help you then have to put out a
    house fire.
    
    There is so much publicity now to call only in an emergency.  Sometimes
    we forget its ok to call 911.  As a volunteer firefighter, I know that
    we have been on calls that we were glad we were called.  It helped build
    community support, and we were able to offer experienced help with the
    proper tools to avoid a disaster.
    

If your only problem is snowpack.  Then I think a cap would do it.

I have a reverse draft problem when I light a fire on a cold day.  I first 
discovered this problem one night about fifteen minutes before the guests were
to arrive.  A fire is nice for company.  No?  Boy was it smoky!

Since then I have developed a technique for establishing a draft.

	1. Loosely roll and crumple a newspaper torch about two feet long.

	2. Lay fire.  Crumpled newspaper, kindling and logs.

	3. Light fire.

	4. Open flue (that's right, I do this second *immediately* after 3.)

	5. Light newspaper torch.

	6. Shove newspaper torch up the flue.

As you can imagine steps 3.-6. are done in rapid succession.  It works for me.

Stan

Maybe this is why insurance companies offer discounts to homes with fire 
extinguishers.   

I strongly suggest anyone who regularly burns wood in their homes to have one
on hand.  

/Jeff

    re .8
    
    I have the same problem if I have not been using my wood stove for a
    while.  I start a smallish fire (newspaper and kindling) and then with
    only one vent open I use my shop vac (with the hose inserted into a
    coffee can to fit better over the vent control) to force start the
    draft.  Like you, once started, and after I've been using the stove for
    a while I don't have any problem.
    
    Ahhh, I'm not confessing to any "You dummies" here you understand ...
    
    but, make sure the hose is in the blow-hole.  You want the vac blowing
    here, NOT sucking!

    When the newspaper-torch-in-the-flue didn't seem to be working this
    weekend, I tried shoving a 20-inch window fan into the fireplace.
    
    Eddy currents stirred the newspaper ashes all around the living room
    before the draft reversed directions.
    
    Dick

re .11:

Yes, definitely have a fire extinguisher.

re .12:  (shop vac in 'blow' mode)

I like that idea!  Why didn't I ever think of it?

-Mike

	I've run across the same problem and solved it by opening a nearby
	window prior to opening the doors on the wood-stove.  Then when
	opened, I start a small fire with paper in the stove and with the
	draft on the stove opened ( I have a two-step draft for kicking in
	a catalytic converter) the pressure from the open window forces the
	smoke out of the chimney.

	Works fine.  Prior to that, I'd be burning lots of paper and choking
	on smoke in the room because of the reverse draft.

    I also use the open nearest window method, and find it works very well.
    
    This is the 3rd season that I've burned wood in my fireplace, and while
    I've learned through practice how not to smoke-up my house, I'm finding
    that my walls are showing-up the effects of a fireplace in the
    livingroom.  First of all, I have a fireplace screen only, no glass
    doors, so it's basically wide-open to the room.  And, even though I've
    perfected the smokeless method of lighting fire and keeping it lit,
    some kind of residue is coating my livingroom walls.  What's even
    stranger about this is that the residue appears to form on the walls
    moreso where the studs are located, in other words, I can see the
    outline of nearly all the studs in the livingroom.  It's great if I
    want to hang pictures, but now I'll have to repaint this room, much to
    my wife's delight!  :-)  I guess my only solution is to enclose the
    fireplace with those glass doors.......
    
    John

    RE .16 "What's even stranger about this is that the residue appears to
    form on the walls moreso where the studs are located, in other words, I
    can see the outline of nearly all the studs in the livingroom."
    
    The studs conduct heat better than the insulated cavities in your
    walls, so the interior surface is colder (in winter) over the studs.
    Water vapor, a byproduct of combustion, is condensing.  Even if all the
    smoke is going up the chimney, your wet walls will get dirty from the usual
    airborne dust in the room.
    
    -- Kenny House

Yeah... We get the residue, too, and we have a wood stove.  The worst buildup
happened when our oil fired furnace was cleaned and "tuned" by a bozo from the
oil company (it only took 4 more trips and a few hundred dollars of the oil 
company's money to fix the tuneup).  As you said, it builds up over the studs
the most, and really highlights the drywall nails.  

My caution is to severely WASH the walls before repainting, otherwise the new
paint will blister and flake.  I don't know what's going to happen when I try
painting the textured ceiling, which can't be washed.

    Exactly!  The drywall nails especially are showing through.
    
    The condensation theory makes sense.  I've had quite a few fires this
    season already, and some of them were real scorchers (livingroom
    getting up to 80+ deg.)!
    
    In a sense, I'm kind of thrilled that this is not such an unusual
    problem and also seen by others........
    
    Thanks for the tip about washing the walls prior to repainting.  I
    wasn't going to, but I can see why it would benefit.
    
    And, like I said earlier, my wife don't mind- she wanted another color
    anyway........
    
    John

	re: reverse draft in chimney.....

	Hey, c'mon guys, think of the HI_TECH solution!

	Line the chimney with electrical heater wires.  

	When you want to start a fire, pre-heat the chimney for about 10 
	minutes with the heater wires - Voila', perfect draft BEFORE 
	lighting the fire.

	Why, you could even use the heater wires for burning off creosote.


		many  ;-).....   Josh

    Or, since cold air is heavier that hot air, you can also use an air
    shredder.
    
    :-)
    

.20 reminded me of something I'd thought about before (before our house fire --
when we still had a wood stove).  Is it okay to burn the creosote you clean out
of your flue?  (Wait until your fire is good and hot, then throw a paper bag
full of creosote into the firebox.)  Would that tend to just re-deposit it onto
the flue, or would it work okay?

								-- Chuck Newman

Re: .21

Damn - she beat me to it!

    
    The air shredder has only been proven to work on rain-compacted air.
    Your results on cold-condensed air may vary.
    

A nice cozy open fire on a cold damp winter's night really spreads the dirt
around -- smoke, ashes, sawdust, dirt from the firewood, bark and splinters,
etc.  We have fires at least twice a week in the winter and I wouldn't stop
for the world, but it's a dirty, energy-inefficient habit.

    Again, while I've perfected the (visibly) smokeless fire in my own
    fireplace, I noticed that after the Christmas weekend, where I had an
    almost-constant fire going, I was coughing like crazy.  And, I didn't
    have a cold either.  I figured that, even though there was no visible
    smoke, the fire was putting `something' into the air.  Another reason
    why I'm getting a fireplace enclosure for next season......
    
    John

    The fireplace wasn't putting something into the air as much as taking
    it out.  Nothing dries out the air faster than a nice hot fire in a
    fireplace--that's probably what was causing your coughing--or at least 
    it was one cause...
    
    -randy

    I own Majestic Gas 36DV88 (DV=Direct  Vent)  fireplace.  It gives off
    an odor after running awhile.  At  first  I  thought it was the "new"
    smell burning off some paint or something (at  least  that's what the
    dealer told me).  If I run it long enough, it gives me a headache, so
    I don't run it too long.  I tried re-tightening the glass/seal on it,
    but that didn't seem to improve it.  Any ideas?  Do cities have depts
    that test that sort of thing?  Gas company?

                                          Steve

    The headache may be from the odor but it might also be a lack of oxygen
    in the room.  If your house is well insulated and real tight, the
    fireplace can use up a significant portion of the O2 in the room and
    make you feel lightheaded.  This can be fixed by cracking a window to
    let in some air or a more permanent solution is to run a duct to the
    outside to provide air to the firebox. 
    
    Are you burning anything besides wood in your fireplace?  You can have
    your local fire department come out and check the installation.  Maybe
    they can spot some problem.
    

Steve,

I suggest that you call Majestic and find out what could be
wrong. It could be as simple as the vent heating up any paint to
the unit not getting enough oxygen. Headaches are the first signs
of carbon monoxide posioning. If cracking the window cures the
problem, have the installing folks come back and install an
outside air vent into the fire-box area.

cal

    Back to the base note: I also had my chimney cleaned by the same
    sweeper and I also have an odor of wet ash that wasn't there before. 
    In addition, I had some windows installed about a year ago and while
    the carpenter was there he noticed the room (over the garage
    w/cathedral ceiling) didn't have what he called (I think) a ridge vent. 
    He said all the air and moisture in the room was collecting at the peak
    and was trapped.  This could cause dry rot/mildew.  So I had him do the
    work.
    
    Ever since, I've noticed a significant DOWNdraft in the fireplace when
    the flue is open.  The odor in question was very bad if we left the
    flue open and somewhat diminished when it was closed.  Over the last
    couple of months it has gotten better after many fires.  My guess is
    that the chimney sweepers disturbed the crud in the chimney but didn't
    get it all, so it smelled until it aged a little.
    
    Any suggestions re: my downdraft problem?  Some days when we light a
    fire we get a tremendous amount of smoke in the room until the heat
    from the fire is sufficient to counteract the cold air coming down.
    
    
    

    I don't frequent this conference, and I checked note 1111.1 for both
    "Mantels" and "Fireplaces", and found neither.  If this topic IS
    discussed elsewhere, please point.
    
    I'm looking for plans for fireplace mantels.  Any sources?

"Mantel plans" is pretty general.  There a zillion kinds.  Are you looking for
a formal mantel?  Rough?  What did you have in mind?

There are a couple of notes that discuss mantels.  See notes 419 and 3709.

Paul

Steve

Do you realy want to make one?  I have found that mantles are one of the things
that wreckers save for resale when they dismantle a building.  If you would
prefer a restoration project, call your local wrecking companies and see if
they sell stuff to the public.  They generally have plumbing fixtures, radiators,
bannisters and all manner of good stuff cheap.

Stan

>                                I have found that mantles are one of the things
>that wreckers save for resale when they dismantle a building.
					 ^^^^^^^^^

    Re: .1 
    
    Well, I've learned something already -- I don't know the difference
    between a "rough" mantel and a "formal" mantel.  What is the
    difference?
    
    What I had in mind was that I have a fireplace at home, with a brick
    hearth, and an oak board laid across the top for a mantel.  I wanted to
    improve on this board by coming up with some designs for a full mantel,
    like the one hopelessly pictured below:
    
    
    |--------------------------------------------------|
    |                Wood Mantel                       |
    |     |------------------------------------|       |
    |Wood |         |--------------|           |Wood   |
    |     |         |              |           |       |
    |     |Brickwork| Fireplace    | Brickwork |       |
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    Does that help?

  Steve,

  I have a multitude of plans for mantelpieces and surrounds taken from early
designs, which I'll gladly mail you. What's your mailstop?

  So that I don't spend time copying the ones you don't care about, help me by
picking the style (from below) that best fits your desire -

  1. A surround composed of a moulded architrave of ~4-12 inches in width

  2. An entablature supported by two pilasters (like the style you drew in .4).

  3. A surround, similar to #1, but planted on a full paneled wall.

  Their designs can range from quite simple to very detailed with #3 requiring
the most work regardless of design.

  Patrick

    We are seriously considering a gas fireplace w/ zero clearance.  Does
    anyone have any experience w/ what brands are good?  Are they a good
    source of heat?  Or any other experiences w/ them?
    
    thanks in advance,
    Sonia
    
    P.S. I checked other fireplace notes - but none seemed to discuss
    brands or opionions on them in general.

    the september 1990 issue of The Family Handyman has an article on
    zero clearance gas fireplaces. They list names and addresses of
    companies in this business.
    
    If you can't come up with a copy send me mail on Granma::Ghalstead
    and I will send it to you.
    
    
    

    
    	Re: .0
    
    	We are thinking of putting tile (black Italian marble...) over our
    fireplace's bricks.  Did you tile yours?  If so, how did it turn out
    and what "gotchas" did you run into?  Thanks!
    
    								-craig

    
    
    My husband and are in the process of purchasing an old home.
    
    The house does need the chimney's re-pointed.  One is a bread oven that
    is located in the kitchen. The other is the fireplace(s) chimney.
    Is this expensive? Also what about a damper in this fireplace?
    Am I right that all chimneys have flues?
    
    I'm hoping we'll be able to open the fireplaces some day, right now
    the owner (or previous owners) have the oil burner vented through
    the fireplace chimney, and the fireplaces are closed up.  They have
    a circular opening in the front for what I was told was to hook up
    old oil or keorosene (sp?) heaters  to heat rooms way back when.
    Well, can we vent in some other way? I've heard there are gas burners
    now that vent out the side of the house with PVC, instead of running
    the vent up throught the house and out the roof...(there is a gas line
    hookup, apparently the house used to be gas heated).  Or is there
    a way to open up the chimneys with the oil burner and vent another way?
    
    I really love these fireplaces, there are 3 working and one that is 
    a fake (I think).  But two of them have nice marble mantels and frame-
    work, it would be a shame not to be able to use them.
    
    Sorry, lots of questions, but maybe some helpful hints/answers?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Deb the fireplace nut.
    
    

    Deb,
     I had the old fireplaces in my house fixed up. One was for cooking,
    one was for heating, and there was a oven vented into one also.
    The house is circa 1830.  I'll dig up some book titles over the weekend
    that helped me out.
    
    The old fireplaces are great !
    
    Marc H.

    Marc,
    
    Thanks, that would be a great help...I just hope that we'll be able
    to open them up in the future...the house is circa 1800, but is in
    great condition.
    
    Deb

Using a fireplace for heat is incredibly inefficient.

Sorry, after that blast in the tankless hot water note I couldn't resist.

CdH

	    I have to go with .3, fireplaces are very inefficient.  But 
	they sure can look nice.  Not only does most of your heat go up
	the chimney, there's such a draft, it sucks heat from adjacent
	rooms along with it.  What you get is one toasy room surrounded
	by plenty of chilly rooms.
	    You may want to consider buying a wood stove insert for one
	or more of your fireplaces.  I guess some of them look very nice.
	And if you got one with a catalytic combustor, you would generate
	less smoke to boot.

					Tim

    I realize fireplaces are inefficient, but that's not what I'm
    asking about.  I made no comments in the tankless hot water note
    that I'm aware of.

    re .3,.4
    Check out the "fireplace" in this month's Fine Homebuilding. Not
    only is it efficient, but it beats the heck out of any woodstove
    out there! Upwards of 90% efficient, and quite sharp-looking as
    well...
    
    John

    Re: .3
    
    Well, I too use to believe the old bromides like "fireplaces are 
    inefficient".....until...I decided to research them. The truth is
    that a fireplace CAN be made to work quite well as a heat source.
    I'll admit that wood stoves are better...but...research the subject
    first.
    
    The major work on fireplace heating was done by two people. They
    were Benjamin Franklin and Count Rumford.  The "Count" had a
    to put it mildly...a rather interesting life. His major contibution
    was to apply the laws of thermodynamics to fireplace heating.
    
    I suggest that people start by reading:
    1. The forgotten Art of Building a Good Fireplace by Vrest Orton
    
    2. The forgotten Art of building and using a brick bake oven by
       Richard Bacon.
    
    These books are available from Yankee Books.
    Yankee,Inc.
    Book Bept.
    Depot Square
    Peterborough,N.H. 03448
    
    They are around $5.00 each.  Also, they are available at Old Sturbridge
    Village in Sturbridge,Ma.
    
    I have and use two Rumford fireplaces.  They heat the house very well.
    I suggest that if you have an old fireplace, fix it up and enjoy it!
    Add a woodstove to a new flue. Keep history alive.
    
    Marc H.

No thanks, I'll take my contemporary and woodstove

CdH

    Re: .5
    
    The tankless hot water comment made that caused a reply...was made by
    myself.  Quess that it got some people "hot under the collar"?
    (I know...not very punney)....
    
    Anyway, the first step is to read the books that I suggested..then,
    check out the inside of the flue . Has it been updated with a clay
    liner? A metal liner? Or a poured in Concrete liner?
    
    I would suggest that you find a mason who understands old fireplaces...
    and if you have no liner in the flue( just bricks),to have a clay 
    liner installed.  I had the work done, by removing one of the sides of
    the flue, and adding the clay flue liners..then adding new bricks to
    replace the wall that was removed. The wall does not have to be
    removed all the way down, since the masons can add the clay liner
    in pieces.  
    
    I would be happly to answer other questions off line.  Typeing is
    not a major skill of mine.
    
    Marc Hildebrant
    Flower::Hildebrant
    223-1211

    Re: .8
    
    Too bad....old fireplaces have a unique charm.  By the way, some people
    that I have talked to have added "Rumford" fireplaces to their
    new homes....and they really like them.
    
    Marc H.

    Thanks for all the advice...book titles and personal experiences.
    
    Since we as yet don't live in the house, I don't know much about
    the fireplaces except what I've seen from inside the house, and 
    from the chimneys above the roof.  We are closing on March 15th,
    and so far so good.  When we get in there, we'll be able to get
    a better sense of what this whole project would entail.
    
    We do know the chimneys need re-pointing, but that's about all from
    an outside view.  On the inside, the fireplace openings have been
    closed up with what looks like brick and then a layer of plaster, with
    only a large hole left in the middle that used to accomodate a portable
    heater of some kind, most likely keorosene or maybe oil...The 'holes'
    are now covered with a removable 'plate'.
    
    The oil burner is vented through this same chimney, which is the reason
    for the fireplaces not being used in the traditional way.  
    Either way, since the house dates to early 1800, what we feel is that 
    these fireplaces are a major feature of the house and we'd really love 
    to see them back in working order some day.  
    
    The bread chimney in the kitchen seems fine, as it is a seperate
    chimney from the other fireplaces, we were thinking that we could
    use it again if possible.  It has one cast iron door in the front
    where the bread was baked...not sure if coal or wood was used to 
    fire the oven, but there is an old coal bin directly below it in
    the cellar.  We thought that *maybe* we could make a new opening
    in the front for a fireplace or maybe even a grille for cooking???
    Just dreaming on that one...
    
    We will most likely hire a mason with expertise in fireplaces to
    take a look...I'll keep my fingers crossed.  Hopefully the main
    chimney has more than one flue, since there are 3 fireplaces 
    connected to it on different sides.  This way we may be able to
    work something out with re-venting the burner....
    Does anyone know a reputable mason like this in the Reading MA
    area?  This is where the house is located.
    
    It will most likely cost, that's all I can think right now. But
    in order to preserve the house I'm willing to burn money and wood
    and waste heat efficiency for that antique charm that old houses
    and fireplaces can offer.  Of course, heating the house is a 
    major concern to us, and we don't intend on using the fireplaces
    as the only way to heat.  
    
    We're not sure what 'type' of fireplace they are, Marc H. mentioned
    Rumford...How do we find out if we have such a fireplace or if it's
    just a reglar' ole fireplace?? :)
    
    Deb

    Re: .11
    
    Deb,
     The book goes into a lot of detail on the "rumford" design.  The
    design requirements specify the relationship of the width, height, and
    depth.  However, as a "quick check", the rumford type fireplaces are
    not very deep, and they look like they would not work at all.
    
    You have the right attitude with regards to your old home.
    
    Marc H.

    When we built our house, we included two Rumford-design fireplaces.
    After several uses, it was obvious to us that even an efficient
    fireplace is no match for a modern woodstove.
    
    Unfortunately, the shallow depth of these fireplaces makes for a more
    difficult stove installation than a conventional design. If we were to
    do it again, we'd skip the fireplaces and have hearths designed for
    stoves at the outset.

    Re: .13
    
    If efficient operation is the goal, skip the hearth/fireplace and just
    use a wood stove.  I found though that my fireplaces work at a
    reasonable efficiency.  I also have a woodstove in my addition.
    
    Marc H.

    re .11
    
    >We will most likely hire a mason with expertise in fireplaces to
    >take a look...I'll keep my fingers crossed.  Hopefully the main
    >chimney has more than one flue, since there are 3 fireplaces 
    >connected to it on different sides.  This way we may be able to
    >work something out with re-venting the burner....
    >Does anyone know a reputable mason like this in the Reading MA
    >area?  This is where the house is located.
    
    	I recommend Joe Padeni from Grafton MA. He did the masonry for my
    new house as well as three other homes on my street. He did an
    excellent job (IMHO). I climbed up the staging while he was doing mine
    and talked with him while he worked. Even though he was working for the
    builder, he asked me what I would like, regarding decorative touches,
    and did what I asked. I don't know if he will travel that far, but with
    times as they are, couldn't hurt to ask.
    
    His buisness card reads;
    
    Padeni Masonry
    Joe Padeni
    839-4088
    
    
    Roger
    
    

re .11 . I think I'd have a mason look at those chimneys *before* I bought 
the house.

I don't think I'd want to own a house without one, but really, Count Rumford
notwithstanding, in 1992, fireplaces are strictly an entertainment device.

    Not to "rat-hole" this note...but....When I use the Rumford fireplace,
    I don't need any extra heat on my first floor.  It simply works.
    The problem is that fireplace heating needs constant attention to the
    fire, and I can't always do that. Thats why I don't use the fireplace
    more, not because its inefficient.  
    
    When I have quests at my home, and I use the old fireplace, the quests
    are amazed at the heat the fireplace can give.  It can be and WAS a prime
    source of heat for the house......its far more than an "entertainment"
    device.  You just have to try it for yourself to be a believer in the
    "Rumford" design.
    
    Marc H.

I'm sure it's warm in front of a Rumford fireplace.  It's warm in front of my
non-Rumford fireplace. We have a fire at least once a week all winter long.
I have also spent hundreds of warm and mellow hours building, feeding, 
watching, and discussing huge wood campfires in cold weather with only a 
hearth and back wall and no chimney or fireplace at all.  

I am interested in figuring out how a Rumford fireplace gets around certain
things that seem to me to be givens in the fireplace context.

There are three methods of transmitting heat, conduction, convection, and 
radiation.  

In the fireplace, conduction is the least important.  The fire burns better 
once the fireplace is warmed up, but that's about it.

Convection is mostly up the chimney.  The fire is really smoldering until you
get a good draft going, and that means there's a lot of heat going up the
chimney.  A good fire forms a triangle of flame.  Previously heated air is 
drawn from the room, heated more, and sent up the chimney.

The brighter the fire, the more radiant heat you're getting from it.  There's
quite a bit, but the convection must still be more.

I read Count Rumford some time ago, but as I recall the basics, the fireplace
is shallower and wider than average, with precisely determined dimensions.
The design maximizes radiant heat and minimizes the convection up the chimney.

However, the fire won't burn without a good draft up the chimney (greatly
heated air and smoke) and without oxygen (previously heated air from your
living room drawn in for a chemical reaction and then sent up the chimney).
So it's hard to see how a significant proportion of the heat provided by the
burning wood isn't used up in the process of burning the wood itself.

    Alot of what you said could apply to any combustion-based heating
    system - woodstoves, boilers, furnaces, etc. Heat will be lost to
    the outdoors, it's just a matter of how much.
    
    John

    Re: .18
    
    Well, the details are in the book that I listed, back a few replies.
    The key points are that the design maximizes the radiant output,
    using thermodynamic principals ( rumford was a pioneer in heat
    engineering), and that a big, roaring fire is not needed.
    Another aspect of the rumford design is that the firebox is not
    only shallow, but, very high. In addition, a smoke shelf is designed
    such that as much of the hot air is kepted in the room as possible,
    i.e. the design needs less hot air going up the chimney than a normal
    fireplace to keep the smoke out of the room.
    The fireplace isn't as good as a wood stove in heating a house, but,
    it isn't that bad either.
    
    Marc H.  
    
    Prior to the name Count Rumford, he went by the name of Benjamin
    Thompson.  

    
    Just curious, but is the design optimised for any particular
    kind of fuel?  What might work for coal could be far less efficient
    for wood.
    
    Colin
    
    (Who grew up in a house where open coal fires were the sole heating
    source.)
    
    

    Re: .21
    
    Wood was the only fuel during this time period in the US.
    
    Marc H.

I did some reading on this ages ago, so somebody correct me if I am wrong.

If I remember correctly a modern (Ha!) fireplace is deep, dark and square
and has an efficiency of about 10%.

A Rumford fireplace is wide, high and shallow and has an efficiency of about
25-30%.

Obviously, this is no where near as efficient as a gas/oil furnace or even
a wood stove.  However, I love a fireplace.  Even my deep, dark, square
10 percenter.

Stan

    Well, I would estimate the Rumford at 50%, and the ~modern~ at 1 %.
    
    Just personal experience......
    
    Marc H.

    
    Fireplaces, especially in older homes are lovely. However, my woodstove
    is not an ornament, it is a necessity. Over half of the our exterior
    wallspace is glass, the ceilings are 16 feet. Even with triple panes,
    R22 walls and the R42 roof, there is still significant heat loss. If
    I had not used the stove these last few weeks of bitter cold, we would
    have used up at least $100 worth of oil. Instead, I went through a half
    a cord of wood which cost me $32.50. Simple economics.
    
    CdH

    Are you arguing or just stating info???  
    
    Marc H.

    Hi,
    
    Sorry to steer this conversation back in the direction from which it
    came, but my original note was not about economics or styles, actually
    it was about 'can I do this'?!  If anyone would look at my note again
    or at the reply about what the situation is now with the fireplaces in
    the house, then perhaps they could point me in a direction to help
    get some answers.
    
    Not to put a (ahem) damper on the subject of efficient vs.
    non-efficient, or Rumford vs. modern, but I would really like some help
    in finding out what we will be able to do about these fireplaces, if
    we can do anything to make them work again.
    
    But, if we've pretty much covered what we can, thanks lots, I
    appreciate the feedback....and will let you all know what happens 
    when we get down to taking a sledgehammer to the front of the 
    fireplaces and find what's inside, (kind of scary now that I think
    about it.....)
    
    Thanks!
    
    Deb
       

    Re: .27
    
    Deb,
     Are you asking for info on checking the condition of the fireplace,
    or how to repair it?
    
    Marc H.

    
    
    Marc,
    
    In the base note and my reply (.11) I *think* I said what I would
    like to know...basically, this is what it looks like now, (closed
    fireplaces, by that I mean the openings are closed except for a
    hole which was used to hook up portable heaters of some kind),
    this is what I wish for, (to open the suckers up and use them
    for what they are...fireplaces...), but am concerned because the
    chimney is used to vent the oil burner. We could change the 
    heating system and re-vent somehow, but we're not sure how or
    if we can...$$$!
    
    As for repairing, yes, we'll most definately have to do that, at 
    least re-pointing is something obvious right now, but as far as
    any hidden repairs...we don't know, and hope that if there are, they
    aren't too expensive...which means we'll have to check conditions
    of the fireplaces and chimneys....which we can't do yet cause we
    haven't moved in! Not till March.
    
    So that's it I guess...just sort of rambling on my part, but I
    really really really want to be able to use these fireplaces some day.
    
    Thanks,
    Deb

    O.k.....First off, each unit needs it's own flue. The only exception
    would be the old bake oven.  I'm sure that you could keep the venting
    that has the fireplace and the oven vented into the same flue.
    
    I would suggest that you install a gas, condensing burner that can
    vent using PVC pipe. In that way, you can use the fireplaces when you
    want. I would not use the fireplace AND the oil burner at the same
    time.
    
    I would also not remove the bricks to the boarded up fireplace
    until you are ready to install a new burner (gas). I'm sure that the 
    draft would get messed up to the oil burner with the fireplace
    opened up.
    
    Marc H.

RE: .27 - (kind of scary now that I think about it.....)

Reminds me of the story the heroine in the movie "Gremlins" tells about why 
she doesn't like Xmas.  :-)

Stan

    
    
    Marc,
    
    The inspector told us about the gas burner with PVC pipe.  My husband
    found the price to be about $1000.00 for the burner, yikes!  BUT, the
    house used to be gas, so we know the conversion wouldn't be *too*
    difficult.
    
    Good suggestion on the sledgehammer to the closures though!
    
    We might have to wait a bit, till our finances are back to *normal*,
    but I hope we get it done.
    
    Thanks for the reply, now how about them Rumford fireplaces eh?  ;)

For whatever it's worth, the guy who lives next to my father heats his entire
house with a fireplace, in upstate NY.  I don't know if the fireplace is
a Rumford type at all, but it has "heatalator" vents, and was built 10
years ago.

-Mike

    I'd go with the light gage sheet metal pipe, not stove pipe, the kind
    used for heating/ventilating ducts. As for size, I'd go with the 6"
    pipe. It's better to oversize and you can split the pipe to another
    combustion appliance if need be. The problems a 6" pipe leads to are, a
    6" vent hood costs money ~ $30 not much call for them I guess. You need
    a 6" hole saw and BIG DRILL and strong wrists. Finish details are
    import for installing the vent hood, so that it won't appear awkward.
    You'll need a hammer drill and masonry bit to remove ~ half of a
    cinder block, in the ash pit. I'd don't think location of the pipe into
    the ash pit is as important as it's need to be sealed properly where it
    enters. It should be a straight shot from the outside,if possiable to 
    anywhere high in the ash pit and have an elbow point down to help keep out 
    the ash from above. You'll be able to control the air flow with the ash 
    pit door in the fireplace floor.  For anyone else who might be interested, 
    in other applications you'd use a blast gate to regulate the amount of air 
    coming in. 
    Now I'll give you some 'rough' numbers on the volume of air needed. It's
    been awhile since I learned such things,but here goes. For every pound
    of wood to burn, its needs 10 pounds of air. This one I'm  fuzzy on but, a
    cubic foot of air weights ~ .1 pound. So roughly speaking to burn 10
    pounds of wood you need 100 cubic feet of air. Normally it draw this air 
    from cracks and leaks to the outside. In a tight house, it can cause real
    problems, like backdrafts thru any other vents in the house except of
    coarse the plumbing vent.
    You might be able to solve you problem with a 4" supply line but its a
    crap shoot. Go with the 6" line.
    The type of professional you need is a HVAC(Heat Ventilation Air
    Conditioning) mechanic. Hopeful, you know someone you can barter
    with, because I'm not sure a commercial outfit would be to take on such a
    small job. 

    
    
    Moderator, please move this if you think you should.  I've checked
    all the notes on brick and fireplaces and masons  and lining chimneys
    and so on...
    
    My old house has unusual, what look like, fireplaces.  Each one has
    a thimble in the middle (a round 6 or 7 inch opening), the rest of
    the front is closed with plaster or cement or some such thing.
    
    What I've been told varies...that these were real fireplaces at one
    time, then converted to use keorosine (sp) stoves or wood stoves,
    hence the thimble opening.  
    
    I was also told that these were not real, but built as facades to 
    make the area ornamental (where the stove was placed.) There is a 
    a flue pipe that run from one fireplace in the living room to the 
    other fireplace in the dining room (horizontally), connecting to
    the chimney....I don't know. Can my fireplaces ever work as real
    fireplaces??? Anyone out there ever experience anything like this?
    
    One other thing, the chimney is not lined.
    
    I'm sad...I have a house that dates to 1832, and these fireplaces 
    are thorn in my side!  Part of me wants to take a sledge hammer 
    to one of them and find the real truth behind that closed front, 
    the other part of me says, who cares, they just suck warm air out
    of the room.  
    
    Any books, help, info or whatever is greatly appreciated!
    
    Thanks,
    
    Deb
    

    If the house dates back to 1832 I *very* much doubt that these
    fireplaces are/were ornamental!
    
    If you still need proof try taking a hole saw to one obscure corner.
    Shine a light in and see what you've got back there. Traces of soot
    should serve as evidence to the positive that these are real fireplaces.
    *Carefully* light a match and hold it *near* the hole. If you observe a
    draft you have your proof, if no the results are inconclusive as the
    flue might have been sealed.
    
    	If you want to open these fireplaces, I'd say go ahead. Even if you
    don't want them for anything more than ornamental use you can still
    seal the flue to prevent heat loss.

Take look at the supporting structure in the basement. If its quite small it
was probably not ever a fireplace. A fireplace typically has a large
supporting structure under it to support all of the weight and size of the
firebox etc. I've never seen a 

	I have worked on old houses that had mantel facades built around flue
openings like you mention. These came about when houses were built specifically
with Franklin stove, oil or kerosene parlor heaters and people still wanted the
look of a mantel where the stove sat. Some houses are still  built like that 
way today.

	The other way that these sometimes come into existance is if the entire
old fireplace and structure are torn down for some reason and rebuilt as a 
simple chimney. I've seen the mantel stay in its original place with the opening
to the firebox closed up and a thimble into the chimney is installed for a
Franklin stove, oil or kerosene parlor stove. This major job can accomplished
with easily replaced structural or cosmetic changes to the existing building. 

	It wouldn't surprise me if that house was built to accomodate a Franklin
stove when it was built. It would be around the correct time timeframe. 

	The fact that the fireplace style mantel exists doesn't mean that there
is a fireplace behind it. 

    If 1832 vintage and it looks like a fireplace was there once, I bet
    it was just bricked up.  Blocking off fireplaces was a very popular
    thing to do, back in the latter part of the 19th century.  There
    are some good suggestions in previous replies about what you might
    check for further clues.  But I bet you'll find fireplaces in there.

    
    
    re .2--
    
    You're most likely correct.  The supporting structure, in the basement,
    (which is the bottom of the chimney) is just square, not very large,
    and looks the same size in width as the chimney that comes out of the
    house on the roof.
    
    The other interesting thing about these 'fireplaces' is that there are
    closets beside them in the wall, that are boarded up halfway, creating
    a shelf-like area...this is where the flue pipe runs through I
    reckon...These 'fireplaces' will never be real then I guess...?
    
    Thanks for the replies...
    
    Deb

    
    
    One other thing I didn't mention in my base note is that there aren't
    any hearths at the base of the fireplaces...Also, the mantles have
    openings such as a rumford style fireplace would have, taller than they
    are wide.
    
    How could I tell if the original chimney was replaced or structural
    changes were made?  
    
    Deb

    RE: .5
    
    "Who knows what happened before.....the Basement Knows!"
    
    Marc H.

    
    RE: .6
    
    Does your cellar talk?  Hmmmmm.

Hi,

	To the untrained eye it might be difficult to determine if its been
replaced or not. One thing I would look for is back in the basement:

	See if the chimney structure is surrounded by framing...is the framing 
of the same material and technique as the rest of the framing you can see in 
the basement? Is there a very large opening in the floor around the the chimney 
structure? Or does it look like someone added on some wood to fill what used
to be a large hole in the floor (cieling from down in the basement ). 

	No hearth is another clue...typically the hearth was cantilevered
from the main structure and does not rely on the floor for support. (if its
done correctly)

	You might want to do a little research at the local library on the 
house. If it was built using a very different chimney or heating system for its
time you may find something in the town history about it or for that matter
the town may even have some drawings on it somewhere. But I'd almost bet that
the house was built without fireplaces judging from the descriptions.

	Don't you just love old houses! They are just full of surprises.

Paul

    
    
    I've looked in the basement before, and there is no evidence of
    any changes...but the floor is concrete, so maybe someone added
    the floor at a later date covering any evidence of what used to
    be a base for the chimney (assuming there was a dirt floor at
    some time?)
    
    The library is a good idea, I have been there once and found only
    a brief history of the house and who built it...but nothing mentioned
    about the way it was heated or the like, just that it is an excellent
    example of Greek Revival Colonial arhitecture.
    
    Where in the library could I find more inforamtion besides what I
    have already found (it was a book on historical homes in the town).
    
    Deb

    
    	I dunno, 1832 was way before air shredders were invented.  I'd be
    _real_ careful in drilling the exploratory hole into what could be
    severely compressed air.  :-)
    
    							-craig

    
    RE: .10
    
    Huh?  What's an air shredder?  What could happen?  I'm almost
    afraid to ask! Sounds like 150 years of eech is behind that wall
    ready to explode into the first unsuspecting face.
    
    

What I wanted you to look at was the ceiling in the basement around the 
existing chimney structure to see if it looked like someone may have added
some wood around the chimney to close a large gap or to see if there was a
very large gap in the basement ceiling around the chimney that might indicate
that there may have been a much larger chimney there before.

	If you know who the builder was you may be able to track down some
decendants who just may have the prints for the house in a trunk in the attic.
Slim chance but it might a lot of fun doing the research.

	Sounds like the house was designed and built for a well to do client.

	Was the house designed by an architect by chance? (He/She may be listed
	as the builder in the town records.) You could then see if the town had 
	any plans on file or possibly a written description of the bulding 
	design or something on those lines. The not so run of the mill houses
	might have gotten more attention and ended up being documented better
	then most. 

	How about old newspapers of the time period?

	How about asking the town historical society for some assistance in 
	finding out more about the house? They may even already have some info.

	Sounds like a fun project to me! 

	Paul

    
    	Re: .11  (What's an air shredder?)
    
    	Get a cup of coffee, a half hour or so of free time and read
    through note 1906 and its replies.  (There are around 60 replies or so.)
    The air shredder part starts around a third of the way through it, but
    read them all for the proper background...  :-)
    
    								-craig

re .10:

They obviously didn't have *power* air shredders in 1832, but they most
certainly had manual ones.  Earl Proulx in Yankee Magazine had a question
about one recently.

>                     <<< Note 4811.13 by TUXEDO::YANKES >>>
>                -< One of the best noting days I've ever seen! >-
    
>    	Re: .11  (What's an air shredder?)
    
>    	Get a cup of coffee, a half hour or so of free time and read
>    through note 1906 and its replies.  (There are around 60 replies or so.)
>    The air shredder part starts around a third of the way through it, but
>    read them all for the proper background...  :-)
    
>    								-craig

    You know Craig,

    For being told yesterday that I have a week left with Digital, reading 
this note, and now going back and rereading 1906 in it's entirety reminds 
me what it is about Digital that I will miss and that has made notes so 
much fun....I can't count the number of times that someone has thrown "air 
shredder" into a perfectly logical discussion and it has never failed to 
make me smile at our collective sense of humor......Thanks for the 
reminder!

    And for our poor base-noter, I hope you never take this crowd seriously 
when you ask a question! I doubt that you will find a wider range of DIY 
knowledge anywhere, conveniently mixed with a big dose of humor more often 
than not....

    	Vic

    
    
    RE: .15
    
    Here I sit, the 'poor base noter', smiling as I realize what a 
    dope I was for even asking what an air shredder was...I had the
    feeling I was being reeled in, hook, line and shredder...I should
    have listened to my instincts!
    
    No, I realize this is a great place for DIY info.  I may not always
    'get it', but I love a good sense of humor!  Keeps us young.
    
    Best of luck to you, these are sad times for us all.
    
    Deb 

    Deb,
    
    you can generally find air shredders at Spag's, usually on display 
    right next to the board stretchers and left-handed nails...
    
    But seriously...if you decide to take a sledgehammer to the facade,
    give me a call. I've got a lot of built-up tension that I need to
    release...(Besides, I just *love* to break stuff.)
    
    Freddie

re .2

>Take look at the supporting structure in the basement. If its quite small it
>was probably not ever a fireplace. A fireplace typically has a large
>supporting structure under it to support all of the weight and size of the
>firebox etc. 

My house was built in 1812 and the kitchen has a beehive oven complete with
bread oven, etc.  It is10' long!  When I had someone come in to look at some
repair work, I discovered there was no apron or extensive supporting structure
underneath and it would all have to be built in.  So I wouldn't say that this
is completely a true statement.

dana

    
    
    Hardy har har Freddie!  I'll bet you're  having a big chuckle
    at my expense...I was wondering, do they have Knuckle-head nails
    there too?!?!?
    
    If I decide to bust the thing down, I'll let you know, but for
    now until I do some research I'm leaving well enough alone...
    
    Deb ;>

Perhaps the best ;thing you could do is to call in a mason that specializes in
refurbishing/repairing antiques homes/chimneys/fireplaces.  He could give you
the best guesstimate on the fireplaces and what can be done with them.

Sounds like someone went in either added on to the house or did some extensive 
refurbishing.  I don't believe there were cement basements in 1832.....

dana

    
    
    I'm sure you're right about cement basements not existing in 1832 
    or there-abouts...but apparently, someone laid cement over the dirt
    floor in this basement--thank goodness!  I would love to know the
    entire history from beginning to end...and especially what the
    orignal builder/architect had in mind for those darn *&%%*&^
    fireplaces!
    
    Deb ;))

    
    
    	I am cleaning out my fireplace and was wondering if anybody know 
    what kind of cleaning solution I can use to clean the soot off of the 
    bricks inside the Fireplace? 
    
    Any suggestions would greatly be appreciated. 
    
    
    John 

    
    I hope someone gives you a good answer to this because you'll want to
    clean off the soot after each and every fire.
    
    I don't like the looks of an irregular patch of soot against yellow
    firebrick, but I took a different tack to fix the problem. I used a
    "stove black" compound on the firebrick so that you can't tell where
    the soot ends...
    
    JP

    I take a different approach. The soot shows that the fireplace is
    used. Call it "natural".
    
    Normal cleaning with a chimney brush during the annual clean is all
    I give it. Why pretend it doesn't work???
    
    Marc H.

    Use Muriatic acid.  Wear gloves and goggles.

    >Use Muriatic acid.  Wear gloves and goggles.
    	
        There's a product out that is called SAFE MURIATIC or something
    	(the words "SAFE" and "MURIATIC" jump off the label). It is as
    	powerful as regular muriatic acid but without the dangerous 
    	fumes. I used this to clean the tiles around our wood stove and 
    	it worked pretty well.
    
    	-Erik
    

    We recently purchased a 40-year old home which has a fireplace that was
    never cleaned.  The Chimney Sweep took out 50 pounds or so of creosote. 
    Once done, he recommended that we spray the inside of the fireplace
    and the wood with SAF-T-FLU prior to each fire.  This comes in liquid
    (spray onto fire brick and/or firewood before starting the fire) and 
    powder (onto coals as they die out, releases gas to neutralize
    creosote).  The sweep recommended ACS (?) or SAF-T-FLU.  We bought
    SAF-T-FLU from Home Depot, but the sweep sold ACS as does fireplace and
    hardware stores.
    
    Essentially, this stuff helps burn the creosote so it doesn't build up
    in the fireplace/wood stove.  We find there hasn't been buildup since,
    we have 3-4 fires in the fireplace a week.  Although this doesn't
    exactly answer your question, it might help once it's cleaned.  Goo
    dluck!   

    We're building a contemporary house and the only thing left to 
    decide on is the mantel for the fireplace.  Does anyone know where
    I can find idea's?  I'm looking for a wood, full mantel, painted
    white.  The fireplace will be marble.  
    
    Thanks,
    Sue
    
    

	    I had an issue of Home Handyman with mantle ideas in it.  I'm
	sure all those types of magazines have editions with mantle ideas.
	A trip to the library might help you locate some.

					Tim

    Metropolitan Home has a lot of modern fireplaces in its issues, with
    all kinds of mantles --- one was a piece of bronze.  Most public 
    libraries have MH.

    
    I've moved into a newly constructed house, which in the basement has a
    Superior brand fireplace.
    
    It has been pre-wired for a blower, the fireplace manual says it takes
    a Model #FAK-1500 fan insert. My question is how effective are these
    units? When I build a fire, it heats the area just in front of the fire
    place but it seems that the majority of the heat is going up the flu.
    
    Will installing this fan blower significantly improve the heat
    distribution i.e, will it warm the room? and what is the approx cost of
    this option.
    
    Any recommendations and advice appreiciated.
    
    Steve T.

    
    I'm interestd to find out whether there is such a thing as a special
    fabric for a rug/mat to place in front of a fireplace or woodstove.
    
    Our carpet has taken a bit of a beating from sparks - is there
    something like an asbetos type carpeting?
    
    carol 

    Various catalogs that cater to woodburners offer small rugs
    (typically semi-circular throw rugs designed to be placed with the
    flat side towards the stove) that are meant to sit in front of
    fireplaces or stoves to protect against embers. They come in a
    variety of designs (e.g. faux-Oriental).

	We picked up a fireplace rug at one of the home centers (HD, HQ,
	whatever) this winter. It's not really fireproof -- more like fire
	resistant, made of some sort of nylon, if memory serves.

	We paid something like $12-15 for it. I think I've seen more
	expensive ones that are probably "fire proof," or closer too it. But
	the one we got is cheap enough that we won't care if we have to
	replace it.

	Roy

    I have a problem with our fireplace. We have moved into our new house
    last winter. The hoise is 6-7 years old, in excellent condition and it
    has a large brick fireplace in the family room over the garage. The
    family room is large with a cathedral ceiling. The fireplace has been
    used extensively by the previous owners with no apparent trouble.
    But whenever we use the room fills with smoke. We can get the fire
    to burn quite nicely but as it progresses there is more ans more
    smoke in the room until it is impoosible to stay there. We have had
    the fireplace cleaned last spring and put a cap on it. We tried it
    again yesterday and the same problem occured. We crack the windows
    in the room to get more of a draft but it does not seem to make
    a difference. We only have a screen in fromt ofthe opening not the
    glass doors. There does not seem to be any apparent blocakge: my
    husband said that he could see all the way to the top.
    
    Any suggestions?
    
    Thanks, Ania
    

                      <<< Note 5433.0 by NAC::A_OBRIEN >>>
                             -< smokey fireplace >-

I have experienced similiar problems with my fireplace which is located in
the basement (rec room).  I have a couple of suggestions:

1.  Before lighting the fire,  open the flue and check for "down drafts".
    If there is,  the smoke will come into the room upon lighting the fire.
    The remedy is to to make sure of a "good" draft up the chimney(sp) prior to
    lighting the fire.... a hair dryer will heat the air sufficiently to 
    create a draft up the chimney.  A permanent fix might be:
        
    a) try different cap on chimney;
    b) install fan in chimney pipe to "create" draft;
    c) if chimney is open to atmosphere,  have boxed in (ie. siding, bricked)

2.  Try heating the flue with a lit rolled up newspaper placed directly 
    under the flue.  This should create an initial draft,  light the fire and
    the smoke should go up.

3.  Only light fires on "low pressure" days.

Regards

Roy

Do you have any other windows open in the house?  

If you have opened any windows above the fireplace level, you have created an
extra chimney.  This secondary chimney will get only a fraction of the smoke
that primary one gets, but it will get some.  

If you have opened windows on the leeward side of the house, the wind will draw
air out of that window.  If there is no other place to draw from, it will
detract from the primary chimney draw and pull smoke in to the house.

When the chimney was cleaned, did you mention to the cleaner that you were having
this problem?  You probably did, and that's the reason you got the cap...

I had a similar problem at my house and the cause was anoying, but simple.  When
the house was build, the sub that did the fire place did not match the fire box
opening with the tiles in the chimney.  the fire box opening is too big, so the
fireplace doesn't draught properly.

The solution was a plate that reduces the size of the fire box opening to match
the tiles.  It was about $125 installed.

The fireplace works great now, and the plate is painted black.  Its hardly
noticable, especially with the glass doors installed.

-Al

    All the windows in the house were closed (except the ones in the family
    room). However, the family room is equipped with a couple of small
    fans high up, encased in a wall behind which are two bedrooms. So there
    are two opening leading to two bedrooms. In the winter there is quite
    draft coimg through that opening even though the fans are turned off.
    We eventually want to put a wood stove insert into the fireplace so
    the fans may come in handy then. However for now I have taped up one of
    the openings so that there will be no draft coming into my daugther's
    room. Could that one remaining opening cause the problem?
    
    Thanks a lot for the advice in .1. We will try all the suggestions.
    
    Ania
    

Is the draft coming from the fan openings coming from outside the house?  If so,
that might be the problem.  If you have a relatively airtight house (aside from
the fireplace, of course), you should be opening one window a little to give the
fire someplace to draw from.

    
          Try placing a regular brick under each leg on your andiron. 
      This will cause the fire to draft differently and smoke less. I
      tried this on a fireplace in a home I used to have and it worked
      great and was a cheap fix.
    
                                                 Randy

    	Here's a quick test that you can do that I came across by accident.
    On a windy day with no fire lit, open the fireplace cover and screen
    fully and place an old sheet over the opening.
    
    	What you should see is the sheet sucking into the opening as the
    wind blows past the chimney top. If you see it bulging in the opposite
    direction, you have a down draft and/or something which is sucking air 
    out of a different part of the house.
    
    	Some of the things that I can think of that will do this are a
    clothes dryer, an outside exhausted kitchen fan, a furnace power vent,
    an outside exhausted bathroom fan/vent, or a whole house/gable vent
    fan.
    
    	As someone else mentioned, an upstairs window could also cause this. 
    As heated air from the house rises up and out an open window, it will
    cause the house to draw air in from another source (i.e. the fireplace).
    This is not very likely. If you're lighting a fire you probably
    wouldn't want windows open too.
    
    	Normally, I wouldn't expect many of these things to be a problem,
    but if the house is relatively new and/or especially tight, it could
    create problems like this.
    
    	Ray

    Thanks you very much for all the suggestions and advice. We will try
    them all this weekend and I will post the results.
    
    Ania
    

    I have tried the fireplace again last night. I taped the fan openings
    and I have held a rolled up newspaper to warm the flue. I only opened
    one windows in the family room. It was a success: no smoke in the room.
    I may still try to put bricks under the andiron.
    
    Thanks again for all the advice.
    
    Ania
    

    	I'm looking at trying to beef up the output of my current 
    fireplace. It has a double-wall contruction and was passive up until 
    I installed a fan to suck the heat out of the area between the inner
    and outer casing and blow it into the house. This alone has improved the
    heat output a lot.
    
    	My question is this. The heat passed from the inside box to the
    outside box is through conduction. Since heat rises, the VAST majority of 
    heat goes right up the flue. What I was considering doing was taking some 
    2" black pipe and mounting it directly above the fire in line with the 
    damper opening. There'd be at least a couple inches between pipes, so
    it wouldn't impede the flow much.
    
    	I'd have to drill holes in each side of the inner metal box and
    weld the pipes in place at each end. This way the heat from the fire
    would heat the pipes that were directly in line with it, and the fan
    would draw air through the pipes. This is essentially the same
    principle behind those in-line heat-a-lator devices but with more
    surface area and better heat exposure.
    
    	Other than making sure that I get a good airtight weld on the black
    pipe ends, can anyone see any other problems ? Any other thoughts on
    this ?

>    	Other than making sure that I get a good airtight weld on the black
>    pipe ends, can anyone see any other problems ? Any other thoughts on
>    this ?

Santa might get stuck

    Re .10
    
    Thanks a lot for the explanation. The picture you drew is exactly
    the situation we have. We will use your advice.
    
    Ania
    

    Does a cap on the chimney help prevent downdraft?  I have had the 
    problems of downdraft in my home for many years.  Just a plain cape
    with a double flue chimney.  1 flue goes to living room, where there is
    a fireplace with doors.  The other flue goes to the basement, where I
    have a wood stove hooked up.  The down draft on the stove in the
    basement was bad when I first hooked up. However, I was always able to 
    get the updraft by using paper/blowdryer to start.  I did this for 4-5
    years with good results.  Someone suggested that I place a chimney cap
    on the flue which led to the basement wood stove.  It really did not 
    seem to help.  In fact, after 2-3 years of use with cap, the downdraft
    seems to have worsened.  I did not use at all last year, since each
    time I went thru the normal procedures, I filled up the house with 
    smoke.  
    
    I probably have other problems, but I had a local firm come in and 
    inspect.  They found no problems with either flue.  I have tried to 
    install vents in the first floor on the other side of house, above the
    woodstove, etc.  I'm not sure what to do.

We have periodic smokiness with our new (to us) house.   

Chimney sweep came in to clean and said that the chimey is too short 
for the size of the fireplace (or the fireplace should be smaller for 
that size chimney).    Had something to do with rate of draw.  

His suggestions were to 1) put bricks under the grate and 2) put on a 
glass door because the trim on the top of the door will be about 4" 
down from the present top of the fireplace, thus making the fireplace 
4" shorter and the chimney 4" longer (if you get what I mean).     

he did not suggest elongating the chimney on the top.  

Glass door is a good idea regardless.  It may indeed cure the draw problem.
A cap might help too.

				Steve

    	FWIW - I have a glass door on my fireplace and I'm pretty happy 
    with it. The draw does seem better when first lighting the fire. I've
    never really had a draw problem any other time though.
    
    	One other recommendation I can make that might be helpfull. There
    are two different types of firesceens I've seen. Some have a woven
    steel screen (like a curtain) and some have metal screen doors that 
    open and close. The metal doors are a little easier to deal with and 
    offer better spark control. Home Depot carries the latter.
    
    	Ray

    I've got a question about fireplaces and their efficiency.
    
    Currently my home has a fireplace with glass doors and screen.  The
    intent, I suppose, is to close the screen and doors, open the vent on
    the bottom, and enjoy 100% of the ambience plus 10% of the heat.  This
    apparatus is more efficient, I have been told, than an open fireplace
    which tends to suck out more hot air from the house in order to feed
    itself than it produces.
    
    It's odd, because when I open the fireplace doors, I feel so toasty
    warm!
    
    What do people suggest here.  Is it really better to leave everything
    closed?  How about the vent on the bottom?  I've tried closing that too
    and the fire keeps on cooking.  On the other hand, are there times when
    leaving the doors or 1 day ajar more heat producing than not?
    
    Anyone ever heard of a "fireplace insert"?  Does this make a
    difference?  What about cost?  Thanks
    
     

    
 >     apparatus is more efficient, I have been told, than an open fireplace
 >     which tends to suck out more hot air from the house in order to feed
 >     itself than it produces.
 >     
 >     It's odd, because when I open the fireplace doors, I feel so toasty
 >     warm!
    
    
    Yeah, but the people in the *other* rooms are freezing... and it
    takes more heat from your furnace to maintain them at room
    temperature.
    
    Some fireplaces have heatolators that cause room air to circulate
    around the firebox (sort of an old-style fireplace insert), and
    these tend to return more real heat to the room than more
    conventional fireplaces.
    
    Fireplace inserts are basically funny-shaped woodstoves that fit
    into the fireplace cavity and have the room air circulate around the
    metal box (often with encouragement from a fan). They can be much
    more efficient than a normal fireplace, though still less so than a
    regular woodstove standing in the middle of the room (a lot of heat
    is still used to heat up the back wall of the fireplace).
    
    However ... whether all this is really important or not depends on
    how often you want to use the fireplace and to what end. To enjoy
    direct heat while you're in the room on the weekend, I wouldn't get
    really het up about efficiency; close the fireplace when it's not in
    use, and 99% of your house heating comes from your normal heating
    plant.
    
    If you're planning to burn wood as a significant percentage of your
    winter heating, though (i.e. you're going to go through a cord or
    four of wood), then efficiency is a much more important issue. There
    are some fireplace designs that can produce net heat into the room
    (Count Rumford style, for example, which are very high and shallow).
    Most will not, or will go through much more wood for the same amount
    of heat that a proper woodstove would produce with much less wood.
    (There must be a more efficient way to say that.)
    
    Vermont Castings (among others) sells a fireplace insert; you can
    see it at ... Sand Something? ... the wood stove place that's behind
    MacDonalds on Dan'l Webster Highway in Nashua (since OOYES is in
    ZK). If memory serves, they run in the neighborhood of $2k. Look for
    something with catalytic converter; it can make a big difference in
    how smokey your chimney gets and how fast creosote builds up.

>                      <<< Note 5464.0 by OOYES::GILFIX >>>
>                           -< Fireplace efficiency >-

>    I've got a question about fireplaces and their efficiency.

	 You may want to redirect your questions over to PORI::STOVES.    
     Although .1 pretty much answered them all.

					Tim

    As a new homeowner, I'm experiencing some of life's simple pleasures
    (not) whilst enjoying my new responsibility.  For example, I find that
    my throat and or lungs get irritated when I build a fire, presumably
    because of the ash deposits which travel from the fireplace whenever I
    open the glass doors to add or adjust the wood.  I end up coughing like
    a smoker later that evening.
    
    Is this normal?  If so, do other people actually wear masks to prevent
    this?  

>    my throat and or lungs get irritated when I build a fire, presumably

	    Might be the ash, could be the smoke.  Some people are allergic
	to wood smoke.
	    You may get some response in PORI::STOVES.  If you are using
	the fireplace for heat, as opposed to asthetics, you should look
	into a stove insert.

					Tim

    You should make sure there are no obstructions in the chimney flue.
    You could be getting carbon monoxide into the house which may cause
    the symptons you have described.
    
    When was the last time the chimney was cleaned/inspected?

    I only use the fireplace for ambience, not heat.
    The chimney sweeper came and said that all was fine for now -- cleaning
    could wait until Spring.  
    I doubt it's Carbon Monoxide.  I fear it's the ash itself that's
    airborne.  Maybe I'll just exhale while I adjust the logs!

    speaking of ash...  Is there any reason to think that ash from the
    compressed wood/wax logs would contain anything unhealthy ?  Ya know,
    is there any reason not to toss them ashes out in the compost pile ?

Well, regular wood ash is generally OK.  I've heard of it being thrown into
soil for a fertilizer (not a general one, but it replaces some element)
and certainly forest fires add a lot of nutrients to the soil.  If it's
just normal wax used to bind the wood/paper together, I don't think it 
should be too much of a problem, but I'd suggest reading the package
material to see if anything is said about this.

PeterT

The nutrient wood ash adds is potassium (K), as in potash.

	    Wood ash is supposed to be a soil sweetener, meaning it's very
	alkaline.  I throw it on my lawn all winter.  It helps speed up the
	snow melting as an added bonus.
	    What I don't understand (probably never will):  Oak is acidic
	and is mostly the wood I burn.  Why then would the ash be alkaline?
	    As to fire log ashes, I don't know.

					Tim

    because the acid goes up in smoke causing acid rain downwind?
    
    just a guess.
    
    ed

Most organic compounds are broken down in the heat of a wood stove. The organic
acid in Oak is broken down into carbon oxides (CO*), sulphur oxides (SO*),
water, etc, which go up the chimney. The metals in the wood (phosphorous,
potassium, sodium, etc.) oxidize to provide the bulk of the "ash". These
ionize readily with water to form caustic bases.

    Wonder if a suitably-sized air ionizer/purifier would scrub the nasties
    from the air sufficiently to eliminate the problem for you.
    
    /ed

>    Wonder if a suitably-sized air ionizer/purifier would scrub the nasties
>    from the air sufficiently to eliminate the problem for you.
 
	    How about an air shredder?

Does anyone have any ideas how to stop a draft from coming in thru a zero
clearance fireplace?  Actually, it's more than a draft; it's like having a
window open.

Here's some details:

The house is 3 years old.

On the outside where the pipe runs up the side of the house, we discovered the
opening at the bottom was not insulated.  We added some, but it didn't seem to
help.

You can actually feel a breeze going by if you sit in front of it.

I was going to buy some of the plastic that you put on windows to stop drafts.
This means that we cannot use the fireplace (unless we keep re-applying it).

Any advice is appreciated.

Thanks,

laura

    Normally, you want your fireplace to have a good draft ... but I
    guess that's not the kind of draft you mean (sounds like the
    reverse).
    
    Since I don't know exactly what a "zero clearance fireplace" is, I'm
    not the one to give you a technical answer, but I'll ask the obvious
    question: Does your fireplace have a damper, and is it closed? If
    so, have you looked into insulating the closed damper? (Brookstone's
    carries a foam plug that can be used for this; you remove it before
    opening the damper and starting a fire.)

Hi Paul,

Yup, it has a damper and I've had the people that manufacture the fireplace out
to check that it's working properly.  It wasn't at the time and has since been
repaired, but I still get the strong draft.  I should mention that the breeze is
making its way past glass doors so I don't think we're talking about your
'normal' fireplace draft.

Thanks for the pointer to brookstones.  I'll check it out.

Laura

    
    I think those zero clearance units are the metal one piece units that
    are common now. They need the woodwork and mantel etc installed.
    Most have a damper control rod, and a secondary control rod that 
    controls an outside vent that allow addtional air to circulate from
    the outside. Did you notice if on the outside of your home if
    there is vent near the fireplace. The vent may be in the open
    position. It will allow air to enter.
    
    All my neighbors had these installed after the earthquake out
    here. They all have vents that allow air to enter into the 
    fireplace interior.
    
    Dave
    

Well, I took a look at the outside 'chimney' last night and noticed the vent.
It's enclosed on the top and the two sides and open on the bottom.  I can 
look up into it and I see a round grate on the chimney wall.  There's no
type of lever that I can see to close the opening (unless its up inside the
chimney).  I'm going to try to block this opening and see what happens.

Thanks for all your replies.

Laura

    
    The outside vent has a flapper door that closes of the circulation.
    On mine, the lever is right next to the lever that controls the 
    main flu/flapper unit. So there should be two controls up inside
    the fireplace, high towards the back.
    
    But they may have forgotten to install the additional lever. So
    I would just plug up the outside vent hole with something.
    
    
    Dave
    

    I realize that this is a little late but.
    
    There is a simple way to deal with down draft. Open the flue or remove
    the fire board 30 minutes before you want to start the fire place.
    
    The down draft will reverse as the flue warms.
    
    Take this from someone who has 8 fireplaces (all working) in his house

    With 8 fireplaces, I'm assuming you have a central chimney.  My chimney
    is on the outside of the house, and leaving the damper open will just
    give a cold downdraft forever (well... it would probably stop in the
    summer).  A ball of paper up the flue set on fire works the best for
    getting the draft moving the right way in my opinion.  

    6 are one the central chimney and 2 are on the side chimney.
    
    The problem I have with the paper is that it always blows out when 
    stick it up.
    
    It does take about 15 minutes for the down draft to stop
    

    Any recent comments on the gas fireplaces?  

    	I was hoping to be able to connect a wood stove up to my current
    fireplace for the worst part of winter, and then remove the stove the 
    rest of the year and use just the fireplace on the occasional chilly
    night.
    
    	I thought that I had seen a plate that covers the fireplace opening
    and allows a stove pipe connection. Looking in ::STOVES, I found one
    note that implied this couldn't be done because there wouldn't be
    enough draft without first heating the air up in the firebox first.
    
    	There was also a string of notes that said a flexible pipe (requiring 
    much labor and many bad words to install :-) needed to be inserted up the
    flue and a blocking plate installed. This does not sound like what I
    want. I was hoping that someone here might be able to verify whether 
    or not a simple fireplace cover plate exists or if this is the only
    way to go ?
    
    	The fireplace currently has a built in insert of sorts, and isn't
    very efficient. We had an insert in there, but it seems that the insert
    within an insert did not work very well. I've also heard of people
    installing wood stoves in a fireplace. Do these also require a section 
    of flexible pipe and blocking plate, or can they simply be slid in and
    out ?
    
    	Ray

    Well, my woodstove is connected to a fireplace, and I removed the
    existing damper and replaced it with a steel insert with a hole
    through it for the flexible pipe, which is bent to enter the clay
    flue of the chimney. I then sealed the edges and gaps with furnace
    cement. You want to avoid installations where the smoke can just
    eddy about in the smoke chamber above (or in) the fireplace, because
    the draft is hard to get established (especially on warmer winter
    days) and you'll get a lot of soot/creosote buildup in the smoke
    chamber. 
    
    Keep in mind that a woodstove installation in Massachusetts (and
    probably many other places) must be inspected by someone (building
    inspector in my town) before it's put into service, due to obvious
    fire risks involved with poor installations (clearances to flammable
    surfaces, etc.). If you want a nice fire on those not-frigid days,
    I'd look into a permanent installation of a woodstove of the sort
    that has glass doors that open and a screen. Even if you had a safe
    "in again out again" installation, decent woodstoves weigh a ton;
    you don't just move it out of the way like a fan.

    re:-1
    
    	That's what I was afraid of. I know that the moving wouldn't be
    easy, but I was only planning on doing it twice a year (in->Nov, 
    out-Apr). It also sounds like I wouldn't be able to use the fireplace 
    without de-installing the blocking plate, which gets screwed and cemented 
    in place.
    
    	Looks like I'm back to looking at ways to get my fireplace more
    efficient. Sounds like my time is better spent putting in an outside
    air source so that I'm not drawing already heated air from my house
    only to go up the flue.
    
    	Ray