Conference 7.286::home_work

        I used to do tiling with my brother in law. If you have horsehair
    and plaster walls.... there is no avoiding replacing the wall! That
    stuff is so dry, that when you scrape the tiles off, I'm sure the
    walls will come with it. If you dont want to replace all of the
    walls, you can re-do the wall from the floor to the top of the tiled
    area with sheetrock. Get sheetrock closest to the thickness of the
    existing walls, and use joint compound to smooth out the seam. Go
    ahead.... give it a whirl!

     I would like to here some opinions and experiences concerning the
    installment of a plywood subfloor under ceramic tile or slate. I'm
    presently putting down slate & tile for floors in the bathroom and
    kitchen of my newly built home. The present subfloor is made up
    of 3/4" T&G plywood that has been glued and power nailed with a
    6" nail spacing along each joist. Because it's new, the surface is
    clean and level without any noticeable spring in it. The floor joists
    are 2X10's and span about 11+ feet at the floor's widest point. 
    
     My question is, do I need to put down an additional subfloor of
    plywood over this new T&G plywood subfloor before I lay my tiles?
    Some of the literature I've been reading says you only need an
    underlayment of plywood if the subfloor is uneven, has old adhesive
    stuck to it, loose boards, etc., but if it's in good sound condition,
    you can lay the tile adhesive right over it. Other literature says
    you should put an underlayment of plywood as standard procedure.
    I'm not sure I understand the reason for the additional subfloor.
    If it's to create a flat level surface, I already have that. If
    it is to add additional floor strength, then why do they recommend
    using 1/4 solid core lauwn (sp?) which has little if any structural
    strenght.
     What methods have you experienced tilers used and what were the
    results? I'm particularily interested in hearing from anyone who
    has layed tile right over new 3/4" T&G plywood subflooring.
    

    My neighbor, who is in the contracting business, put an additional
    1/2" of plywood over the 3/4" T&G on his enclosed deck, prior to
    installing ceramic tile. He says that the additional flooring provides
    the rigidity required to keep cracks out of the finished floor.
    

    The extra 1/2" will help keep the flooring level with the adjacent
    carpeting or other flooring.
    
    Also, consider what to do when you change your mind.   The additional
    1/2" plywood will be easy to remove if you (or the next owner) wish to
    change the floor for whatever reason.   The 1/2" plywood with the
    adhesive will come up (and can be replaced) without having to resort to
    drastic measures.   The adhesive on the original subfloor would
    be a bear to get up. 

     The answer to your questions depends on the distance between joists.
    The problem is that if the floor sags between joists, the ceramic
    tiles will crack, or else the grout between them will slowly crumble.
    (I have both problems in small amounts).    You have to remember
    that ceramic tiles don't give at all without breaking.
    
    I have 3/4 inch T&G boards as a subfloor.  To bring my 3/8" ceramic
    tiles up to the height of my other flooring, I used 3/8" plywood
    over the T&G.  But I guess it wasn't enough.
    
    So I don't think you have enough subflooring yet.  (My joists are
    4 inches thick, and 2 feet on center.)  Keep in mind that once your
    tiles are laid, there won't be anything you can do if it wasn't
    enough flooring.
    
    Considering what you are probably paying for ceramic tiles, you
    should make sure you do it right by having enough support for it.
    If it comes out too high to meet your other flooring, just put some
    kind of oak strips around the edge, like a a 3" strip planed to
    even out the two levels.
    

    I would go with the subflooring.  It it well worth the effort and
    will save lots of time when you (or another person) decide to change
    the decorations.  
    
    A word of advice:  lay the subflooring at opposite angles
    to your flooring.  If the grain of your flooring is going
    left to right, lay the subflooring's grain to go up and down.
    This will increase strength and avoid those "squeaks" in your
    house.  
    
    We used the subflooring when laying linoleum and feel that 
    it was worth all the aggravation.
    

    The main reason I hear people putting down additional subfloor 
    for tile is to prevent cracking due to unlevel/bumpy floors.
    I've done this myself using 1/4" luan.  Of course I live in an old
    house where real 2X's were used, so there was no need to worry
    about support.
    
    					Steve

    In addition to all the other recommendations, be sure to add
    the latex-base additive to the grout - this will give the grouting
    some degree of elasticity and will help prevent cracking.
    
    It's fairly expensive but it's worth it.

    I just put in a tile floor in my bathroom and I added 1/4" exterior
    grade plywood rather than luan (more waterproof glue?)In my opinion,
    since you have a nice level,clean surface it isn't necessary to
    add another piece(unless you want more strength)As for taking it
    off after its in forget it.....ever try pulling out ring nails???I
    did and it makes a mess!!!I would also recommend you use the grout
    leveler stuff instead of water,I didn't but wish I did.....i didn't
    know about it until I was finished.
    Good luck and its not that bad if you take your time.....BTW,buy
    your own tile cutter at Spags,its nice to have and don't place the
    breaker it the center offset it a little and the tiles break perfect.
    I cut 1" squares dead center everytime this way.
    
    Tony....

I too love the tile cutter that I got at Spags but i'm not sure about your
reference to the off-ceter cutter.  Could you elaborate?

-mark

    After I "scored" the tile.....I placed the tile "breaker" just a little
    off-center of the  rod it travels on,in relationship to the tile and then
    applied steady pressure until the tile broke.
    Walla....a nice clean break!! Oh,I forgot to mention,I "scored"
    it twice. 
                                                 
    Tony....getting better at home_work

    I found this interesting since we're about to face the job of laying
    tile on bathroom walls and floors in our new house (as soon as they
    finish building it!). 
    
    re .7 - what is "the grout leveler stuff' - it doesn't ring any
    bells for me, maybe I haven't run across it in any of our research
    so far or maybe I'm just not connecting your reference to my
    information base...
    
    also, the points made earlier about the extra material are good
    ones, the issue is not only the levelness of the floor but also
    the stiffness - if it's perfectly level but has any give when you
    put load on it (like walking) it will crack.  I did notice that
    .0 specified that the flooring is over 2x10s while .3 (?) mentioned
    having cracking on a floor over 2x4s - since stiffness goes up as
    the square (or maybe it's the cube, I forget for sure) of vertical
    section, the 10" stock will be much much stiffer than the 4" - spacing
    and span will both also affect that, though.  Spacing between the
    beams is probably where the added plywood would help the most, I
    doubt that it would contribute anything significant relative to the
    beam stiffness.

    here's a question on a related topic - does anyone have any thoughts
    on problems with tiling bathroom walls over regular plasterboard,
    or whether that would be advisable or not?
    
    when we were shopping for tile one of the tile suppliers tried to
    sell us a special water-resistant wallboard that he said would prevent
    problems that can result from moisture invasion when tiling directly
    over gypsum sheetrock.  We asked our general contractor about it
    and he claimed that there was really no problem with such things
    if the tile were properly installed.  so now we're left with no
    personal experience to indicate which one is correct...
    
    also, any tips on grouting or any other methods of sealing that
    might help to prevent such problems if they are possible/likely,
    short of using the variant wallboard?

    	I just put in a shower stall and am having tile installed.
    	The installer recommended that I put "WONDERBOARD" on the
    	bottom (1 sheet high) and finish the top with "green / blue
    	board" (moisture resistant sheetrock). I know why they call
    	it "WONDERBOARD" now, it is real tough stuff to work with, and
    	you'll wonder how to cut it.
    
    	Anyway the reason for this special sheeting is from what I
    	understand is 2 fold:
    		1. the tile will bond better to the "wonderboard" because
    		   it's almost like a cement wall. 
    		2. If moisture does get behind the tile the boarding
    		   will be moisture resistant. Sheetrock will absorb
    		   the water and cause the rest of the tile to loosen.
    
    	Hope this helps....
    

    re: .10:   I have cracking floor tiles, but my joists aren't
    2x4's.  They're 4x10's, 24" o/c.  The problem is the 24" on
    center.  You need something that can span that (actually 20"
    when you subtract the thickness of the joist) without sagging
    at all.  Now that I'm putting an addition on my house with the
    same size joists, I'm going to use a 3/4" shiplap subfloor and
    another 5/8" of plywood before putting on the tiles.  I'll use
    an oak doorstep to make the tiled floor match the level of the
    rest of the floors.
    

Certainly you want at least the blue-green wallboard in the area that is going 
to be directly sprayed by shower water, and you probably want to go with the 
wonderboard.  It's probably a waste of time, energy, and money to use the 
wonderboard anywhere else, though.  Directly over the shower could probably use 
the green stuff, since it might get sprayed and steamed.  What about the rest 
of the bathroom walls though.  Is there any real reason not to use plain 
sheetrock?

Paul

      I used 3/4 plywood under my tile bathroom floor and havn't had
    any cracking as of yet. I think that tiling over existing wallboard
    is fine, but in the shower stall use the wonderboard as I did and
    as mentioned. Shop around for tile... there's lots of nice stuff
    out there. We used the 4"x6" tiles for the walls with a floral 
    design strip all the way around the bathroom. Then we took the same
    floral tiles and randomly placed them in the shower stall. Use 
    Calking between the tub and tiles as the grout will crack. calking
    now comes in a variety of colors as does the grout. We used almond
    tiles with brown grout and a brown gloss design tile floor.
    Good Luck!

    Instead of wonderboard, my plumber recommended using marine grade
    plywood as the tile backer.   Use the plywood 4 feed up from the
    base of the tub or shower, then your choice (greenboard or regular
    sheetrock)  above that.   I used regular sheetrock because the
    greenboard didn't look like it would paint well.   At any rate,
    the sheetrock being 4 feet above the lowest level is high enough
    that water isn't a problem.   

      I'm going to use 1/2" Wonderboard over my subfloor and under my
    tiles because a woodstove is going on top. Wonderboard is supposed
    to be fireproof and acceptable as a non-combustable surface. I was
    planning on using asbestos cementboard at first, but read on a can
    of tile adhesive that you need Wonderboard for adhesion. I'm wondering
    how strong this Wonderboard is when you put 400 lb. on it on four
    little legs.....
    
    
    Rob
    

I have built several stove platforms out of wonderboard and had no problems.
Don't know what the current building regs are (they seem to change all the time)
but my building inspector told me that wonderboard definately does NOT meet the
building code for fireproofness BUT as far as he was concerned it was close
enough.  Apparently the code still calls for asbetos!

Anyhow, if you're going to have a stove inspection done, I'd suggest checking
with your local inspector just to cover yourself.

-mark

    After you're all done installing, you can treat the grout lines
    with silicone sealer.  This will seal the "pores" of the grout and
    prevent yuck and grime from sticking to the grout.  You usually
    have to re-silicone once a year, depending on use.
    
    -al

    re: .19
    
    You mean a special liquid silicone product intended for that purpose and
    not silicone caulk, right?  (Although I use the caulk for everything
    else, I assume that it'd be inappropriate in this instance.)
    
    -joet

    Re: .20:   Yes, it's a special silicone protector.   You can get
    it at Color Tile and other tile places.   Color tile says to apply
    it right away, the others say to wait a while.

	re .21  I believe the rule of thumb is to wait 72 hours before
	        applying the silicon sealer.

    Re: .21, .22
    
    When I tiled my bathroom, the both the tile dealer and the silicon
    sealant bottle recommended letting the grout dry 3 weeks before
    applying the sealant.
    
    	- Barry

    $8.95 a quart from Color Tile.  Couldn't find it at Spags.  I think
    it's basically the same stuff you put on your winter boots.
    
    One quart = 200 sq ft (give or take).
    
    -al

    I'm planning to do over my bathroom--not a complete remodeling job,
    just cosmetic stuff.  I'm not sure what to do about the tile.  The
    existing ceramic tile on the floor and walls appears to be in good
    condition (the bathroom is only about 15 years old), but there is
    some mildew on the grout around the bathtub and a few of the floor
    tiles are loose.  Can the whole thing just be re-grouted?  And if
    so, do you have to treat the mildew with something before you re-grout
    so it won't "grow" through the new grout???  How much of the old
    grout do you have to dig out before re-grouting?  Is this hard to
    do?
    
    Also, a related question...why are so many bathroom floors covered
    with ceramic tile as opposed to the type of stuff used on kitchen
    floors (e.g., congoleum)?

    >> Can the whole thing just be re-grouted?
    
    I would recommend that you remove the old grout using a grout saw.
    This is a small tool available from tile suppliers which looks like
    carborundum particles glued to a piece of metal the size of a razor
    blade and it has a handle.  Just be sure not to saw thru your
    wall.
    
    You can never really eliminate all of the mildew spores but you
    can give them a real hard time.  Things like chlorine bleach do
    a number on them.  You can also get mildewcides from paint or
    wallpaper suppliers and add it to the grout.
    
    -al

    
    In the UK you can get very good 'grout dyes' that you paint all
    over the place then wipe off, leaving dyed grout that looks like
    new and clean tiles - If the grouting is fairly good to start with
    and you can deal with the mildew, maybe this would be an option?
    
         Chris H
    

    If some of the floor tiles are loose, the problem is more than just
    grout. 
    
    1. If the grout is loose, you can replace grout IF you're careful.
    2. If the tile is loose, at a minimum, you have to remove and re-cement
    the tile. At a maximum, you have a flooring problem that you have
    to fix first, then recement the tiles then regrout the tiles.
    
    Grout is a filler between tiles.
    Tiles are held to the flooring with a tile mastic (tile cement).
    The flooring beneath the cement is usually two layers (courses)
    of plywood.
    
    Loose tile is usually due to water penetration of the flooring,
    which causes the wood to swell, rot, delaminate (if plywood) and
    break the cement.
    
    How can you tell what your problem is?
    
    Is the tile loose? There is no such thing as a little bit loose.
    That's the same thing as being a little bit pregnant. If it's loose,
    bang on the floor to determine if it's sound or not. You CAN LUCK
    OUT. You might have a tile or two that the builder NEVER cemented
    to the floor and, with the grout damage, the tile came loose. This
    is rare and usually accompanied with the tile that is missing the
    cement sitting at a level below the other (cemented) tiles. The
    cement takes up a nominal 3/16's of an inch, after setting of tile.
    
    If you did luck out, carefully remove all dirt, traces of grout
    and cement, recement the tile, leave it alone for 24 - 72 hours,
    regrout, leave it alone, then clean up and you're done.
    
    IF your underlying floor has swollen from water or rotted, you have
    a bigger job ahead. It's not unusual for folks (like me) to be sloppy
    and let water leak between the tub or shower edge and the tile...over
    the years, that causes problems.
    
    The fix?
    
    First, remove the loose tiles. Use a scraper or other tool to study
    the wood. Start peeling up all tiles around the ones you removed
    until you're sure you have exposed good floor boards/plywood all
    around the area of rot/swelling. Now you know how large an area
    you have to perform on... You really ought to remove even more tile
    to give you a good solid wood work area inside which you will have
    to perform surgery.
    
    Next, you have to determine how DEEP the problem is. It could be
    only the first layer of plywood/wood. Or it could be through both
    layers (not very likely in a 15 year old house), or (very unlikely) it
    could also involve the joist. Finally, you have to determine if
    the swelling/rot extends under the tub or shower...if the damage
    is limited to the top layer of plywood and it isn't totally destroyed,
    I wouldn't worry about this last 'doomsday' scenario.
    
    Ok. How do you determine how deep the damage is? Rule 1: if the
    top layer of the top sheet of plywood is suffering from water damage,
    the top sheet of plywood is suffering from water damage. Get your
    circular saw, hammer and chisel, mark off a rectangle into which
    the damaged part of the plywood fits, drill a test hole through
    the flooring (1 inch?) to see how thick the flooring is (total),
    set your circular saw to cut to half this depth (assumes you have
    two sheets of plywood for flooring) and cut out the rectangle, using
    the chisel and hammer for those parts of the cut too close to the
    wall or tub for your circular saw to fit.
    
    Pry up this piece of the first layer of plywood with a wrecking
    bar or similar tool. It's a lot easier if you first find and forcably
    disposess the nails (if any) holding the plywood sheets together.
    
    Now carefully inspect the second layer. It SHOULD BE OK unless lots
    of water has soaked in over the years OR there is a related plumbing
    problem that's been hidden OR the tub edge (no surround) hasn't
    been caulked for years and you were lucky enough to not have water
    work its way to the ceiling below the tub...
    
    Replace the plywood as appropriate. I've HEARD THAT COATING THE
    TOP PLYWOOD WITH POLYURETHANE MAY BE A GOOD WAY TO SEAL THE WOOD
    AGAINST WATER DAMAGE, BUT IT'S ALSO A GOOD WAY TO MAKE THE CEMENT
    THAT SHOULD SEAL THE TILE TO THE FLOOR INEFFECTIVE.
    
    Your biggest problem may be yet to come. Now you have to reset the
    tile. You probably broke some of the tiles while you were removing
    them. If they're small mosaic type, you now have hundreds of little
    tiles to replace with no idea of the right pattern and great fears
    that you won't be able to match the spacing of the remaining
    (undisturbed) tiles. If It's mosaic, go find the closest matching
    12 inch by 12 inch sheets you can find, throw away the little bitty
    pieces and prepare to lay new tile in the area you've just torn
    up and rebuilt.
    
    If you find you've already ripped up almost 50% of the floor, you
    may want to scrap the whole floor and existing tile and lay a new
    layer of fresh plywood (usually 5/8'ths A-C Exterior grade) and
    a new tile floor.
    
    BTW: linoleum or congoleum or other sheet goods aren't much better
    at protecting the wood from water. A good silicon caulk, a tub
    surround, sliding glass doors, a good outside-the-bath 'carpet type'
    mat and common sense to wipe up the water are the only ways to really
    protect any floor you have. Too bad the owners before you didn't
    have the sense to do this, right?
    
    Laying new tile (or a new section):
    
    1. CLEAN the plywood well (no debris). Make sure the nails are below
    the surface. Use ringed (drywall) type nails for the top course
    of plywood. Don't use construction adhesive between the two courses
    of plywood if you ever want to be able to fix this problem AGAIN...
    Vacuum it. Make sure the joints between edges of plywood are LEVEL,
    filling with wood filler or levelling compound (uuch).
    
    2. Layout the new tile DRY (no cement) ... or use any other technique
    to make sure you know where you're laying the tile, spacing, cutting,
    etc. Don't cut now.
    
    3. Clean the floor, lay mastic in one part with the appropriate
    trowel. Set the tiles in place, insuring a proper fit downward by
    rapping carefully with a rubber mallet or your hand (ouch). Do segement
    after segment 'till you're done. Don't use too much mastic and make
    sure you use the right trowel to match your tile.
    
    4. Let it sit 24-72 hours. Grout per instructions. Let it sit for
    atleast another 24-48 hours before disturbing.
    
    Now make sure you've also cured the cause of the water leakage
    permanently so you don't have to do this again in 5 years (or 5
    months if you have lots of careless teenagers).
    
    Why use tile instead of sheet goods? Properly installed, it's
    beautiful, lasts generations, adds value. I just paid someone else
    to put ceramic tile in a 13x24 foot kitchen (new house), a laundry
    room-bath and two upstairs baths, and marble tile in my foyer RIGHT
    AFTER I fixed the tile in one of the baths in my old house
    (instructions above based on experience...) and reset part of the slate
    in my old kitchen, etc. (so I could sell the old house). 

< Note 699.3 by SAGE::AUSTIN "Tom Austin @MK02. OIS Marketing" >
.
.
.
>    them. If they're small mosaic type, you now have hundreds of little
>    tiles to replace with no idea of the right pattern and great fears
>    that you won't be able to match the spacing of the remaining
>    (undisturbed) tiles. If It's mosaic, go find the closest matching
>    12 inch by 12 inch sheets you can find, throw away the little bitty
>    pieces and prepare to lay new tile in the area you've just torn
>    up and rebuilt.

Deja vu. Just a word of warning. The tiles I removed were 1" squares. They 
might have been on backing sheets (i.e. 12" aggregate squares) when they went 
down 15 years ago, but no more... I took a sample to a half dozen or so tile
stores. NONE would guarantee a match, a few would "order some special ($$) and 
maybe they'll match". I ended up re-gooing about 250 tiles, comprising no more 
than an area 7" x 24". A Zen-like experience, for sure.

Oh, and those tile spacers -- the plastic ones? Great if there's no tile down 
before (i.e. you're establishing the gap). I bought the two closest sizes, and 
there was an obvious difference between the existing gaps and those provided by 
the spacers. Ended up placing each of them by eye/ruler.

-scott

    After going through a fiasco trying to order ceramic tile I have
    to pass on the following recommendation. Do yourself a favor and
    stay away from Foley Floor and Tile in Maynard, MA.
    
    I've had nothing but grief from the people that work there, their
    attitude is anything but helpful. I was constantly made to feel
    that I was infringing on their smoking, eating and gossiping time
    whenever I tried to find out why it was taking sooooooo long to
    get my tile. It took almost 6 weeks to get all the tile in for our
    kitchen backplash which really disrupted my plans and I had them
    check on availability before I paid for it. They couldn't
    seem to understand that I wouldn't accept chipped hand painted deco
    tiles that are to be used to accent the backplash. After all they
    weren't paying $5.75 apiece for them.
    
    When I talked to other people about this place they had the same
    impression of the people there. I wish I had talked to them before
    I bought the tile, now maybe you can avoid the same headaches.

    Nick

    You might want to put this in the CONSUMER NOTES if you haven't
    already.

    	There has got to be a huge markup in the price of ceramic tile.
    With the increase in popularity of ceramic tile in the past few
    years there has been a corresponding increase in tile stores.
    I've been out shopping for tile and there is a big discrepancy in
    price and knowledge of these people.
    	One of the places I've found least helpful is National Discount
    Tile Wholesalers.  Don't you just love the name?  They are a new
    chain to get into the game and have the highest prices and the least
    knowledge around.  There sample showroom kitchen had cracks where
    the backsplash tile meets with the counter top tile.
    	I've had luck with Color Tile and Tile Fashons.  There prices
    are ok and they know what they are talking about.
    
    		Be careful out there!
    						=Ralph=

    I'm installing tile in a hall, kitchen and two baths.
    The only tile that we've found with the correct colors,
    textures and trim pieces, comes only in an 8"x8" and 
    12"x12" sizes.  In the hall and the baths I'd like to use
    a smaller size tile (4"x4").  Since the tile in question
    has very square edges and corners I'm tempted to try to
    cut the 8" tiles down into 4 4" tiles.  I wouldn't dream
    of attempting this with the simple "score and snap" tools
    that the tile stores hand out to DIYers.  But I noticed
    a handy stone/tile saw at one of the tile stores.  I'm
    sure such a beast could be rented for a day.
    
    My question:  Using such a saw is it reasonable to attempt
    to cut large tiles down into small tiles for my bath?
    Or is this more trouble than it's worth?  Is anyone out there 
    experienced with such stone saws?

>    I wouldn't dream of attempting this with the simple "score and snap" 
>    tools that the tile stores hand out to DIYers.  

    Why?  Is there a better way?
    

    
    	The problem you will run into is that you will have lots of
    sharp edges where you make the cuts.  Even if you sand down the
    edges I don't think that they will look 'right' without the finished
    edge.  Makes sure they sell trim tile for the pattern that you select.
    	I just spent this weekend putting tile on counter top.  The
    tile cutters from the store worked great even doing funny angle
    cuts.  
    					=Ralph=

    Cutting down larger tiles will leave sharp edges in the glazing.
    If you've looked closely at tiles the edges are rounded over making
    smooth grout joints. I think the finished job would look poor because
    of this.

    Agree - keep looking for the right tiles.
    
    By the way, the abrasive blades for circular saws work great on
    tile. I did a bathroom counter with 12x12 sheets of small tiles,
    and used the saw and a plywood jig to trim some of the sheets to size.

    Another vote for not trying it.  I don't think you'd ever get the
    cut edges to look right, and I also suspect that you'd soon decide
    that the amount of work involved just wasn't worth it.  I'm
    pretty sure I would.

>    >    Why?  Is there a better way?

    I want to retract my response.  (Not that I think there's a better
    way to cut tiles).  But whenever I have to cut tiles for a corner
    or edge, I put the cut side against the wall, because it doesn't
    match up in height with the uncut tiles, for reasons mentioned in
    previous responses. (Tiles have slightly rounded edges where they're
    glazed).  
    
    So, get the right size tiles, but if you have to cut them a tile
    cutter is easier and faster than a carbide saw.
    
   
   

    Having seen my father cut a row here and a row there while doing
    his baths, I'd say that cutting 8 x 8 tiles into 4 x 4 tiles would
    be rather like writing an operating system in RPG-II: it would take
    an abominably long time to get a mediocre (or worse) result, that
    probably won't satisfy you.  As several other people commented,
    tiles generally have a slight bevel to the edges; grouted joints
    where the tiles are cut (and have no bevel) look strange, and (in
    some people's eyes) stand out nastily.
    
    In addition to the aesthetics, consider the amount of time you'll
    kill doing the cutting, and the number of tiles you'll spoil by
    various kinds of mistakes, and the problems you'll add to the normal
    hassles inherent in replacing a tile when it breaks.  (It's a good
    idea to keep spares -- even if you don't need them yourself, the
    next owner may have reason to bless you for it.)
    
    Dick
    

    I second, third, fourth,... the notion that your should keep searching
    for the tile you want and don't cut down larger tiles into smaller
    ones.
    
     If you do get yourself into a situation where you need to cut alot
    of tile, slate, etc., I haighly recommend that you rent a wet saw.
    I've done a fair amount of tile/slate work and have found that the
    score, tap and hope! method is OK for a small number of cuts but,
    nothing beats a wet saw for nice clean, easy cuts. I have rented
    them for about $20 a day. Its well worth it!!
    

    
    I need to drill some holes in some ceramic tile to accomodate a plumbing
    fixture.  
                        
    What's the best way to do this?
    
    Steve
    

    The only way I know is to get a good sharp (new?) masonry bit and
    go to it.  Start small and work up to the size you need.
    
    I just completed that chore in the kitchen to get a wire up to the
    trash masher.  This time (since the hole is hidden and I didn't
    care what it looked like), I got a nice clean hole without cracking
    anything.  Last time I drilled through tile, I cracked a corner
    off.
    
    I think its easiest if you can start the hole along a grout line.
    If not possible, just be careful.
    

I broke down and BOUGHT a tile cutter at SPAGS.  For around $25 I now have
my own and can proceed at my own pace rather than rushing the job to get a
cutter back to the rental place.  I'll bet 2 or 3 rents would be >= the price
of buying.

-mark

I was going to buy a tile cutter too, but I found that the majority of tile 
places will let you borrow one for free, and keep it as long as you want.  All 
you have to do is leave a deposit equal to the value of the cutter, which is 
fully refunded when you return it.

re: drilling tile.

I've just seen recently, in the Woodcraft and Trend-Lines catalogs, abrasive 
diamond drill bits.  They're not too expensive, and supposedly they leave a 
cleaner hole and are less apt to cause breakage than standard carbide masonry 
or glass drill bits.  I imagine that they cut rather slowly, but that's life.

Paul

    Thank you all for your comments.  I continued my search and
    I believe I have found a tile producer that has the colors
    and sizes that I need.  I will not try to cut 8x8s down
    to size.  This quest required visits to 10 different tile
    stores, each of which specializes in a different set of obscure
    tile manufactures.  The process has left me a bit shocked
    at the lack of standards within the ceramic tile "industry".
    Even within the product lines of a single large manufacturer there
    can be wide differences in the sizes and finishes of their tiles.
    (Although I expect some variation in color.)  They must be getting
    their Product Managers from IBM.... ;^)

    A caveat to others: If you want to use tile, find out want is available
    before you decide what you want.  It's easier that way!

    	A further warning on buying tile.  Take the time to figure out
    exactly how much you will need, then buy 10% more.  If you find
    a pattern that you like check on the availability of the trim pieces.
    Tile sales is a flaky business.  They do not always keep you style
    in stock and there will be color changes between the same type of
    tile due to the glazing process.  Make sure all your tile comes
    from the same kiln run.  There has got to be a great markup on this
    stuff given the number of tile shops that have sprung up recently.
    You should keep extra tiles on hand in case you break one down the road. 
    	Another idea worth checking out is having custom pattern tiles
    made.  We just tiled our counter and backsplash and we wanted a
    few patterned tiles to brighten things up.  We didn't like the standard
    tiles available so we found someone who takes the tile and glazes
    a pattern on them.  It cost about $8 per tile but it is the design
    and the exact colors that we want.  Prices vary from $5-15 each
    depending on the complexity and the number of colors in the pattern.
    I don't know the details my wife did all the leg work.  I was a
    bit upset at the price at first, but now I'm glad we did it.
    					=Ralph=
    
    

    I use a masonary bit to drill, and a carborundum hacksaw blade.
    The hacksaw blade is round, and has abraisive material on it.  I
    use the same blade for making irregular cuts.   It works extremely
    well on "soft" tiles (all the stuff you get at Color Tile, the Radio
    Shack of the tile industry) is soft.   Good hard (glazed) tiles
    are hard to come by.   I stumbled across some quite by accident.
    It was the hardest stuff I've ever worked with.  While cutting it,
    2 out of 3 pieces would crack while using the hacksaw.

    I have a bathroom with little one inch square ceramic tile flooring.
    No matter how often I clean it never really looks clean.  My question
    is, can you put wax on a floor of this type?  Or is there a special
    kind of sealer that will at least give the floor a bit of luster?
    
    If the answer is no to the above questions, is it possible to install
    lenolium or self stick tile over this kind of floor?  I'd really
    appreciate any words of wisdom and advice.  Thanks,
    
                                        Signed:
                                             
                                                                   
                                             Dave's dull dingy floors

    Yes, you can wax them.
    No, you cant install the others over the top. The surface is too
    uneven. You can carpet over it if you like.
    
    
    -j
    

    
    Thanks for the tip.  I think I'll try wax.  I wasn't sure if wax
    would mess up the grout between the tiles.  I'll stay away from
    carpet for now, I don't know how practical that would be with
    all the moisture in a bathroom.  thanks again,
    
                                             Dave
    

    There's a "floor leveling compound" you can buy at tile/linoleum
    stores.  It's a powder you mix with water to a goopy consistency
    then spread around to fill holes and depressions in a floor before
    putting down linoleum.  It might work for filling all those little
    cracks between the tiles, then you could put down linoleum.
    If you try it and it works, let us know.  I've got the same problem....
    

    Be careful trying to get a shiny surface on your bathroom tile.
    
    The reason most bathroom tile is sort of a matte finish is that
    it does not have a glazed finish.  Glazed finished can be VERY
    dangerous when wet.  Most tiles with a matte finish provide just
    enough of a rough finish to help prevent slipping.
    
    One caveat here.  While this is particularly true of the larger
    tiles, 3" and up; the smaller tiles usually have enough exposed
    grout that slipping will be minimized.
    
    - Mark

I'm planning to lay quarry tile on the floor of my enclosed porch.  I have some
doubts about whether the base is firm enough, however.

The porch was made by enclosing an existing deck.  The decking consisted of
2x4's laid over 2x8 (possibly 2x10 -- I didn't measure) joists.  The joists are
on 24" centers, and the 2x4's have a typical deck spacing between them.  The
floor area is 16' by 11'.

Over this the builder laid a plywood subfloor -- I actually don't know how
thick, but it must be at least half-inch.  It is nailed to the decking
approximately every 6 inches.

The floor has some "spring" to it (very slight -- but it's not like walking on
a slab!).  Would additional sub-flooring be necessary to make it suitable for
quarry tile?  Would 1/4" luan be enough, or should I go for 1/2" or better?

Because of a door, I cannot build the height of the floor over 1" total,
including the tile.

Should I rent a nail gun to add additional plywood, or would screws be better?
(Why not just set the tiles and grout them with silicone cement? :-)

Thanks,
Bob

I think you're going to have trouble.  It sounds like the problem is the joists 
and not the surface.  Putting more plywood down would help with the short-range
flexing, which is the most important, but it would do little or nothing for the 
long-range flexing, which will still crack the grout.  Can you possibly put in 
a support beam under the porch in mid-span of the joists?  That would stiffen 
the floor a lot.

Paul

    I am in the process of planning a large addition, some of which
    will be tiled.  I talked to the owner of Merrimack Tile in Methuen
    (in same bowling league).  His recommendation is to use the thickest
    subflooring you can get, lay a bead of 'liquid nails' on the floor
    joists, and then screw (with sheet rock screws) it down every 6
    inches.  He said nails work there way up over time and tile doesn't
    like that. 
 
    Obviously that is for new construction and may not be applicable
    to remodeling.  I would suggest you call a tile installer for his
    recommendation.  Get a quote from him while your at it.  
    
    I suspect that, if you can 'feel' the spring in the floor, it is
    not solid enough for tile without some work.
    
    /bruce

    I will be closing on a house in 2 weeks which has ceramic tile
    everywhere -- on the floors, countertops and walls.  What do you
    recommend that I use to keep all that tile clean?  I'm hesitant
    to use something like Spic 'n Span because it's abrasive, and I
    don't know if that will scratch the tile.  Any suggestions on cleaners?
    
    Thanks,
    Cathy

    
    I have the same question concerning tiles.  We are trying to remove
    old carpet adhesive from the tiles in our bathroom...
    
    Any ideas???
    

    	My local tile store had Fuller brand products for sale that
    were made especially for tile cleaning.  I used them to remove untold
    years of crud from the bathroom.  It worked well but was expensive.
    I don't see any reason you couldn't wipe down the tile with paint
    thinner to remove carpet andhesive or just give it a good cleaning.
    I used acetone (nail polish remover) to remove some glue that spilled
    on the tile.
    	For dad to day cleaning I use spic 'n span mixed with water
    and some ammonia.
    					=Ralph=
    

    As a sideline to the original question of re-grouting:
    
    We just put new tiles down and grouted. Well in the process of grouting
    and because of our inexperience with the task, I'm afraid the grouting
    didnt come out too well.
    
    We followed the instructions on the grout bag, but the grout did
    seem a bit thick, but not knowing what the thickness was supposed
    to be, we forged onward. We figured since we followed instructions,
    it must be ok. It took forever to grout, the grout didnot flow,
    we had to really mush it down to force it into the cracks, but we
    finished. Since it was such a long tedious task, we couldnt finish
    it all in one night, so where we stopped and started, the grout
    is darker slightly in color.
    
    Is there anything we can do to improve the lookof the grout? It
    looks somewhat ok, but I dont want the grout to start cracking or
    something. Is it functionally going to be allright?
    
    And what about this Latex additive someone told me about? Are you
    supposed to use this, no one ever told us about this.
    

    RE .5 Terry is that you?
    
    	Grouting is messy and tiring but is not really difficult.  It
    is necessary to 'push' the grout into the cracks.  You can use a
    dowl, the back end of an old toothbrush, or my favorite, your index
    finger.  Grout is nothing but fancy cement.  Remember to buff off
    the tiles with a clean towl or sponge after the grout sets but before
    it dries.  If the grout dries on the surface I think your are stuck.
    	The latex additive is a milky liquid that is added to the dry
    grout instead of water.  It makes the grout stronger and less likely
    to crack.  It is cheap and can be found at any tile store.  Using
    colored grout can be a problem if you don't mix the entire package
    at the same time.  The color can vary in the partial batches.  I
    was warned against mixing a custom color from two batches because
    of this problem.  Keep in mind that the grout will change color
    slightly as it dries.
                 
    					=Ralph=

	One word of caution on the latex additive.  MAKE SURE YOU GET THE
	ADDITIVE THAT IS MADE FOR YOUR GROUT!!  I found out the hard way
	that 1 MILKY ADDITIVE .NE ANOTHER MILKY ADDITIVE.  There are
	additives for Thoroseal, for the mastic that you stick the tile
	down with, and many others.  Get the one that is recommended for
	your grout.  Failure to do may affect the set up time, the strength,
	etc.

	Take it from one who did find out the hard way.

	-gary

    RE: .7
    
    Are you trying to say there are latex additives for the tile mastic
    AND different latex additives for tile grout.  I've never heard
    of latex additives for the tile mastic.  Why would a certain latex
    additive not work for certain grout?
    
    RE: earlier
    
    I've got to re-apply some tile that have fallen off the wall during
    renovation.  An earlier reply said the old mastic should be removed
    but failed to mention HOW that was accomplished (short of hammer
    and chisel).  How DO you reattach tile that has fallen off to a
    surface which has the old mastic?
    
    Phil

re: < Note 699.8 by WELFAR::PGRANSEWICZ >

>    Are you trying to say there are latex additives for the tile mastic
>    AND different latex additives for tile grout.  I've never heard
>    of latex additives for the tile mastic.  Why would a certain latex
>    additive not work for certain grout?
    
	Yup, and yup.

	Here's the story.  I was putting down 250 sq. ft. of ceramic tile
	in my kitchen/entranceway.  I was putting it down with a ceramic
	tile cement that used a latex additive.  One whole day and all the
	tile was cemented down.  The next day come the grouting.  My back,
	legs, etc already aching.  I was using the same typed of tile,
	cement and grout that I used a few months earlier for my bathroom.

	After I was about 2/3 through grouting, I ran out of the additive
	to mix any more grout.  It's saturday late afternoon, the tile store
	is already closed, I'm 2/3 done grouting and don't want to stop
	in the middle of the job.  Bummer.  Hmmm, I've got some additive
	left over from the cement.  Plenty actually.  One milky white
	additive has to be the same as another white milky additive.  Right?

	WRONG!!!!  I mixed up a batch and started putting it down. "Boy this
	stuff don't seem to want to set up too awful well!!"  The grout was
	staying quite watery and would not set the way grout was suppossed
	to.  It was turning into a big mess.  The stuff just wouldn't set
	up.  This was around 8:00 at night and we decided let's go out for
	a little while and come back and finish.  At 10:00 we came home and
	it still wasn't setting up.  "Well, bag this.  To bed and deal with
	it in the morning."

	Another mistake.  By morning it had set up, but wasn't spread properly.
	Big clumps and chunks here, gaps there, and a white film over all
	the tile.  What a mess.

	-gary

    RE: .9
    
    The first thing I'm doing when I get home tonight is check my additive
    to make sure it is what I think it is.  Up until now, I'd only heard
    of grout additive, not mastic additive.  I thought most tile mastic
    was used straight out of the can?  I'm curious.  Have you noticed
    the additive making any difference in avoiding cracks?  Also, what
    consistency should the tile grout be?  Kind of like a paste or thinner?
    
    Phil

re -.1

>    The first thing I'm doing when I get home tonight is check my additive
>    to make sure it is what I think it is.  Up until now, I'd only heard
>    of grout additive, not mastic additive.  I thought most tile mastic
>    was used straight out of the can?  


	The mastic I used was a powder in a 25 lb. bag.  I think there may 
	be two different ways of adhearing tile, mastic and cement.  But
	I'm no expert for sure.  If you bought the additive from the same
	place you bought the tile and they knew what you were up to, you
	should be okay.  Usually the additive doesn't say on the label what
	it is suppossed to be used for.

>    Have you noticed the additive making any difference in avoiding cracks?  


	When applied properly, I've had no cracks at all.  Real pleased
	with the results.  But what a bummer when I didn't do it right.


>    Also, what consistency should the tile grout be?  Kind of like a paste 
>    or thinner?


	The consistency is kind of like a semi-wet clay.  Workable but not
	too mushy.  It should be able to hold it's own shape when forced
	between the tiles.  If you have it too dry you will probably be
	more prone to cracks in the dried grout.

	-gary

Re:	Pushing grout in with dowel or toothbrush



This is not necessary !  Just put glop of grout on tiled wall.  Smear
it across DIAGONALLY to the seams, using flat-edged rubber grouting
tool (available in any tile store).

As you smear, it nicely goes in the cracks.

/Eric

    We had some glue on our linoleum floor in the kitchen and
    someone suggested we use a product called, Goof Off. (sp?)
    
    I haven't looked for it yet, but was told it is sold in most
    hardware stores.
    

    re: 12
    
    How *do* you cut wonderboard?  I'm about to construct a tile hearth
    for a woodstove and was planning on using wonderboard, millboard,
    or fireboard as a base.  Anyone have any experience laying tile
    on fireboard?

I used a masonary cutting wheel in my circular saw.  It did a fine job.  Only
problem is it generate more dust than you can ever imagine.  It'd definately an
outside job.

-mark

    Re:  cutting wonderboard:
    
    I cut it just like drywall-- score it deeply with a knife, then
    snap it over a straight table edge or the like.  The blades don't
    last very long, but they're cheap!!  I did this for the backing
    for the tile around my tub and had no problems.
               --tom

    Does anyone know if Wonderboard is UL approved for use as a hearth?
    There seems to be many cement-type materials out there, but only
    some of them are UL approved for fireproof applications.  
    
    Yes, I already called the local (Seattle, WA) building inspector
    and he couldn't tell what brands were acceptable.  All he could
    tell me was to read the brochure that supposedly comes with the 
    material.

     I just bought some wonderboard and it was printed right on it that
    it WAS UL approved floor protection!
    
    					Kenny

    That's funny.  I went to the lumber yard last weekend to buy some
    Wonderboard.  I asked the salesman if I could see the brochure on it.  
    After the expected funny looks and comments about building inspectors' 
    mothers, he found a brochure.  Nowhere did it say anything about 
    Wonderboard being UL approved for anything.  I wish I had walked
    out to the yard and looked at the stuff.  Instead I went to a
    fireplace shop and bought some DUROCK. 

    When re-grouting, do you need to remove all of the old grout, or
    can you just remove a little on the surface?  Will the new grout 
    adhere to the old grout?

I don't know if anyone has tried cleaning ceramic bathroom tile with
automotive rubbing compound and an automotive polisher/buffer but it
really worked well for me.  I had a shower stall in very poor condition.
The tiles had calcium, rust stains, and all sorts of mildew and other
nasty stuff and sediments on both the walls and shower base.  Rather than
start ripping everything out, I decided to try to save myself labor, time
and money by thinking about how I could save things.  I had just finished
cleaning the paint on my '79 Pontiac with the buffer and both rubbing and
polishing compound and thought, what the heck....  Well, it worked.  I used
a couple of cans of rubbing compound (red stuff).  It tends to turn the grout
a little red but the grout had to be cleaned anyway because it was full
of mildew.  I tried the white polishing compound but it wasn't tough enough.
Be sure and protect the ceiling, or walls as the buffer will throw watery
compound all over everything.  As I'm fixing the ceilings too, it just
didn't matter.


Jim

    Thanks for telling us your experience. What did you use to clean
    the glout ( it had turned to a bit red after applying the compound
    ). Would the glout returned to its original color.

    Since my question doesn't seem to be answered, I'll ask it here.
    
    I have a new family room that I would like to put ceramic tile down
    in front of the door, and carpet the rest of the room. Currently there
    is a plywood subfloor of either 5/8" of 3/4" (new construction).
    I am planning to use 5/8 underlayment under the carpet. Question
    is "What size underlayment for the tile". If I use 5/8 ply will
    the height of the tile cause a bump where it meets the carpet?
    
    I don't want people tripping over the edge. When the carpet is lower
    then you will feel an edge going down if you were to stand on the edge
    of the tile. If the carpet is a little higher then that edge tends to wear
    out sooner than the rest of the carpet.
    
    What do you recommend? 
    
    
     

    Even as we elctronically speak, a contractor is installing a
    ceramic tile floor in our kitchen.  The flooring is 1 1/4 inch
    pressed board.  On top of this, it will require 1/2 inch luan
    to get acceptable floor rigidity.  It appears that your existing
    5/8 plywood plus 5/8 under the tile will not be adequate to
    provide a rigid base for the tile.  This should be your main
    consideration; the relative height differential is less
    important and can be affected by the "plushness" of the rug
    and can be minimized by appropriate trim around the tile.
    
    pbm
    

    I agree with .-1.  The relative height can be fixed up
    with a wood doorstep-type thing that slants down.
    What's important is support for the tile.  I have a ceramic
    tile floor which doesn't have enough support.  It's got
    24" on center joists covered with 3/4" shiplap, covered
    with 3/8" plywood.  And the grout has cracked in some
    spots which turn out to be exactly between joists.
    

    I cleaned the glout with a blass wire blush and a little polishing
    compound.
    
    Jim
    

    Being in the tile laying business part time, the best and easiest
    way I know to clean mildewed tile and grout, is by simply using
    household bleach.
    Pour some bleach in  a spray bottle and spray the affected area.
    Let stand for 15 minutes and watch mildew stains disappear.
    Open the shower and rinse well, no scrubbing no mess.
    
    Try it. 
    
    Robert
    

If you want to clean any ceramic tile and add some shine, simply use
    white vinegar diluted with water and clean with a cloth. Do not
    use soap it will dull the tile finish.

    .3:
    
    Is that full-strength bleach, to use on the tile & grout?
    (I've used bleach to kill mildew on other kinds of walls, but it
    was diluted.)
    
    Dick
    

    
    I am about to tile my second floor bathroom floor.  The supporting
    joists are 4"*10" with 3/4" tongue/groove pine flooring over them.
    (This is an old house).  On top of the pine floors are two layers
    of 3/4" plywood which serves as a subfloor.
    
    After examining previous notes I understand there can be no
    subfloor movement under tile or it will crack.  My problem
    is that when I walk on the existing subfloor it creaks and
    is probably moving despite the double layer of 3/4" ply.
    
    I am contemplating pulling up both layers of plywood to locate
    the joists.  I will then replace the ply by socking it down
    to the joists using woodscrews.  Does anyone have any ideas
    before I get my crowbar out ?

    don't get that crowbar out. leave the plywood there. somehow
    the applicator fastened it to the joists, right? well if not
    you need to find them, there are several ways. however given
    you know where they are or find them, use 1 1/2" or 2" sheetrock
    screws 6" on center and sock the plywood down good. better
    still, better use longer screws got 1 1/2" of sub floor.
    make sure you put one screw every 3" along all the seams.
    that floor won't move.\
    
    jim.

I think you may have left out an important detail, namely the spacing of the
joists.  You said that were 4X10's - was that a typo?  If they are indeed that
big, the spacing might we wider than usual and thereby cause the flexing.

-mark

    The 4X10's are 2' on center.  The top layer of ply is nailed to
    the 1st. with regular subfloor nails.  This top layer is not nailed
    into the joists because the nails are to small and the spacing is
    incorrect.  I don't know how to determine to location of the joists
    without pulling up the plywood.  I am sure the 3/4" pine is nailed
    directly to them.  Any ideas ?

    
    Try an electronic stud finder.
    
    If that fails, drill a couple of 1/64 or 1/32" holes up from
    underneath, next to the joists. 
                                  
    

I want to preface this by saying I really hope you stop the creaks.

I had this problem in my bathroom, and hammered lots of screw nails
to no avail.  The actual problem, I believe, was that one piece of
bracing either was not nailed or the bracing was loose.  In this
case, no amount of nails would help, since the cause was within the
floor itself.  I now live with the squeaks, and luckily have no
cracks in the tiles.

    I have had similar problems both in bathrooms and in other rooms.
    When I recently redid my upstairs, I couldn't for the life of me
    get rid of a squeek, so I picked up the subfloor and found that it
    was the ferring for the ceiling below causing the noise.
    
    I've done many bathrooms, and particullarly with old ones you have
    to be VERY certain that there is no dry rot in the wood. Your problems
    may very well be caused by voids in the pine or joists. Also having
    TWO layers of 3/4 inch subflooring might indicate some problems
    below. When I do a tile floor, I take the time to rip out all the
    old stuff and use marine grade plywood for the new subfloor. This
    takes a little more time and money, but I've never had one crack
    yet.
    
    As for adding more screws per previous suggestions, that may or
    may not do the trick, depends how lucky you feel.

    Good luck, and carefully follow directions on the grout.
    
    JMB
    

    
    I pulled up all of the plywood flooring and found that the first
    layer of tongue and groove pine (100 yrs. old) was in poor condition
    and was virtually floating on the joists.  In spite of the grueling
    effort to remove the plywood which was fastened with ring nails
    I am very glad that I took the trouble.
    
    I installed two layers of 3/4 CD-PTS Subfloor Plyood to the joists
    using glue and drywall screws.  The second layer is installed so
    that the grain is running in the opposite direction from the first
    and is also glued and ring nailed to it.
    
    There is no movement left in this floor, a critical requirement
    for my new tile floor. 

    My wife told me of a recent episode of This Old House where wonderboard
    was used on a floor as an underlayment for ceramic tile.  Did anyone
    see this episode? I'd be interested in getting all of the necessary
    details on installation, etc.  I'm planning on tiling a bathroom
    and back hallway, and now have a 3/4" subfloor in place. I had planned
    on adding an additional 3/8" plywood before adding the tile, but
    after reading all of the horror stories in this file about cracking
    grout, I thought that perhaps I'd use the 1/2" wonderboard in place
    of the 3/8" plywood -- just to gain the additional stiffness. 
    
    Does anybody have comments on using wonderboard as a tile underlayment?
    Is it worth the expense? 
    
    Also, since I didn't see the show, could someone give a brief rundown
    on installation procedures?  My wife mentioned that roofing nails
    were used to secure the board to the floor -- is this right?  Also,
    there was some sort of vinyl leveling compound used.  What is the
    name of that product? 
                          
    Any comments will be appreciated.
                          
    Joe                   
                                                                 
                                                             
                                       

    Re-built a bathroom about a month ago.  My tile sub poured a concrete
    layer over the subfloor.  He said it was to be sure there was a
    smooth, seamless, surface that would never shift.
    
    	-Barry-
    

    remember that TOH series is being filmed in CA.

    I thought I would reopen this discussion, with this question.
    How do you grout tile that will butt up to carpeting?
    
    I have a new room. I am installing tile for a foyer. The 
    carpet will come right up to the tile. Do I need to install
    a wood border around the tile? I assume that the grout will
    only  be necessary up to the end of the tile, so that the
    edge tiles would only have grout on three sides, and the corner
    tile will have it on two sides.
      
    
                  
    Steve

Re:  < Note 412.37 by TOLKIN::RIDGE >

>    I have a new room. I am installing tile for a foyer. The 
>    carpet will come right up to the tile. Do I need to install
>    a wood border around the tile? I assume that the grout will
>    only  be necessary up to the end of the tile, so that the
>    edge tiles would only have grout on three sides, and the corner
>    tile will have it on two sides.
      
 You don't need a wood border where the tile meets the carpet, but
it might look nice.  What I did in my case was to simply tile the
floor, stopping the run with full tiles where you want the carpet
to begin; if you have professional carpet installers (i.e. high-
school kids on summer job assignments :^) do the job, they will
typically come prepared with a variety of metal threshold strips.
My recommendation is the smallest width strip that you can get
to hold the edge of the carpet down;  if you use a too-wide strip,
it will look funny;  also, pick a color that is not flashy or
"patterned" (I went with a brushed aluminum type, which is almost
unnoticeable at the junction of powder blue carpeting and large
tiles with blue/beige colors).
   If you decide on a wood border, I would butt it up against the
edge of the tiles... i.e., no grout line adjacent to the wood. Also,
make sure that the wood is absolutely no higher than the tile surface,
or you'll be tripping on it. 

   Jim

    I've been shopping for floor tile for my back hallway and bathroom.
    I'm just learning about all of the different types of tile products
    available, and thought a new note was in order to discuss the 
    characteristics and merits of each.  
    
    I'd be very interested in hearing comments about Ro Tile, a
    cement-based tile that I'm seriously considering. (I've described
    it at the end of this note.) 
                                                                  
    What we found most often (and in great varieties) in places like Color
    Tile, Tile City, Boston Tile Co. etc. are Monocuttura tiles.  At first
    I thought it was a brand of Italian tile, but learned that it referred
    to the process of manufacture.  Monocuttura tile is glazed and hardened
    in a single kiln firing. It results in a fairly hard wearing tile, one
    that would stand up well to high traffic areas in residences. I do not
    believe it is appropriate for commercial use.  No special maintenance
    is required. These tiles were in the $2 to $4 sq/ft range.    
                                                                  
    Quarry tiles, from what I gathered, are real clay, often red or some
    natural looking color.  The color that you see is solid all the way
    through the tile. These tiles can be very inexpensive (.99 sq/ft) to
    very expensive (my opinion) ($7.00 sq/ft).  The less expensive ones are
    flat with sharp edges at the grout joint. The more expensive ones have
    rounded (also called pillow) edges, and a slightly uneven, hand-made
    look to the surface. Some of these nicer tiles were made in Florida,
    and called Florida Tile (that's the brand name) The others were made in
    Italy, for the most part. Quarry tiles are suitable for nearly any type
    of application, including commercial uses.  The advantage is that
    because the color comes from the clay itself, and not from a surface
    glaze, the tile will never wear out. Although the tile may not have a
    glaze, it is not porous, and thus does not require a sealer or wax.  If
    a sheen is desired however, it can be waxed.                      
                                                                      
    Terra Cotta tiles, also called Saltillo tiles, are from Mexico, are
    hand made, and look very natural and rustic due to their uneven shapes
    and coloring. The tiles come in many sizes and shapes. They are not
    fired in a kiln, but merely baked in the sun.  I was told that because
    of this tile's porosity, it is not appropriate for bathrooms, and is
    not recommended for kitchens. After installation, the tile must be
    sealed, can be stained, and is usually waxed. (polyurethane finishes
    are available, but seem to detract from the natural appearance) Terra
    cotta tile, needs to be maintained.  If it is used in a high moisture
    room (like a kitchen) it can retain minerals from the water and shed
    them much like the outside of a clay pot. Terra Cotta tiles cost
    anywhere from $2.29 to 4.00 sq/ft.                       
                                                                      
    The other type of tile that I saw is called Ro Tile, and comes from
    California.  It has a beautiful, somewhat uneven surface and texture.
    It has a pillow edge. The color is solid all the way through the tile,
    which is 1/2' thick.  I was surprised to learn that the tile is   
    made of 'steam cured' cement.  I was a little turned off by this  
    fact, but was very impressed with the appearance.  The surface has
    a low luster sheen which is created by a vinyl sealer, one coat   
    of which is factory applied, the other applied after installation.
    For interior residential use, no further applications are required.
    For heavy commercial use, or outdoor use, the manufacturer recommends
    reapplication once every two years.  The tile costs 3.95 sq/ft at 
    Corriveau/Routhier (of Nashua and several other NH cities). I haven't
    seen it anywhere else.                                            
                                                                      

    Two points of correction:
    
    I believe that the issue of sealing quarry tiles is open...some
    say it's necessary and some say not.  I think the main point is
    whether or not you want it to "age" rather than remain looking the
    way it looks new.
    
    Also, terra cotta is a low-fire kiln fired tile, not sun dried.
    (Sun dried clay dissolves when wet -- I used to teach art and had
    several ceramics courses in my training.)  Terra cotta CAN be made
    in a hot fire without a kiln, but it is definitely "baked".  The
    lower fired clays are more porous -- there are earthenware dishes
    without glazes that cool water through the "perspiration" that happens
    through the slow leakage and evaporation of the contents.  So unglazed
    terra-cotta tiles would be very prone to absorbing stains, dirt,
    food particles, etc.  Also, low-fired clays are fragile and chip
    easily.  High-fired clays "vitrify" which means they actually melt
    a little and turn stone-like.  Stoneware and porcelain are high
    fired clays.  I think quarry tiles are basically stoneware.  They
    don't need glazes except for decoration, because the vitrification
    seals the surfaces and makes them non porous, heavy, and rugged.
                                                                    
    I would suggest based on this that you might want to think twice
    before putting any soft tiles where they will be likely to get broken
    or splattered.
    
    Sherry 

    The entire first floor of my house has the pillow edged glazed (or
    at least shiny) quarry tiles.  While you are only looking at covering
    relatively small area in tile, I hope you have considered the
    following:
    
    1)  The pillow edges make for a rather uneven floor which bothers
    me in dress shoes and which my elderly relatives find very
    disconcerting. 
    
    2)  The floor is very hard -- almost anything you drop is certain
    break, even things that are labelled unbreakable.
    
    3)  It is very tiring to stand on for long periods of time.  In
    particular, I notice this working in the kitchen.  I ended up putting
    a large throw rug on the kitchen floor to ease the strain.
    
    4)  They are cold in the winter.
    
    Having lived with lots of tile, I wouldn't choose it again.  (Actually,
    I didn't choose it this time, it was a "feature" of the house when
    we bought it.)  And I would highly recommend that if you go with
    tile, you do not choose the pillow edge tiles.  I think you will
    find that you prefer a smooth, flat floor.
    
    I know this isn't the advise that you asked for, but I couldn't
    resist putting my two cents in.
    
    Susan
    
    PS. It is very easy to take care of.  I was it with plain water
    and vinegar and it comes out beautifully.

    I just tiled my kitchen, and had to deal with
    
    	(1) meeting carpet on the same level
    	(2) meeting carpet at top of some steps
    	(3) meeting existing tile of a different colour and grout spacing
    
    For (3) - in the doorway to the hall - I put down a wood threshold,
    which I had rabbitted out so that it sat on top of the existing tile.
    I did this because the existing tile came too far into the kitchen. 
    In other words, the installers of that tile should have cut the
    last row, but didn't.  I then stained the oak threshold, and tiled
    up to it, leaving a 1/4" space that was later filled with grout.
    Like most thresholds, this one is higher than the tiles.  In fact,
    since the tiles are of different thicknesses, it couldn't be the
    same hight as both.
    
    For (1), which is really your case, I did almost exactly the same
    thing.  My carpet was already down, remember.  I first removed
    the old metal strip, and nailed down the edge of the carpet.  Then
    I rabbitted out the bottom of an oak threshold, and glued it in
    place *over* the edge of the crapet.  Then I tiled up to the threshold,
    leaving a 1/4" grout space once again.   Here is the section:
    
    
    		       /----------------\
                     /     oak            \
   tile v          /  threshold   ---------
   =============| |               | EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
     mortar       |_______________| EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE carpet
    
    For (2), I bought a peice of 1" L-shaped aok moulding.  I built
    up the top of the riser with a shim so that when the moulding was in
    place, it was flush with the surface of the tile.  Then I tiled
    up to the moulding, leaving a grout space once again.  Lets try
    a diagram of a section through this:
    
    
    		       HHHHHHH|  |==========================
    *** - shim 	       H ****      here be thin-set mortar
    HHH - moulding     HE\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
    EEE - carpet       HE\\ stair \\\\\\\\\\\ floor \\\\\\\\
                        E\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
                        E\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
                                                            
    All of these solutions look very nice, at least to me.  We tried
    marble strips in some of these places, but the wood looks *much*
    better to us.
    
    	I left grout lines between the tile and the wood.  For appearances
    sake, I don't think tht it matters if you do this or not.  In other
    places, where I added the baseboard *after* the tile, there are no
    grout lines, and I don't think that the average person would notice.
    I just figured that getting the tiles to meet the wood without *nay*
    gap would be impossible, so I might as well leave the regular spacing.
    
    	We also have a wide (5') opening between the hall and the living
    room, where tile meets carpet.  Here the "professionals" who built
    the hose just butted the carpet against the tile.  There is no strip
    of metal.   The carpet is just helpd in with a tack strip.  I imagine
    that they grouted the tile first, with a peice of scrap wood laid
    next to the tile to keep the grout from running out of the ends
    of the cracks, and then installed the carpet once it was dry.  My
    opinion, for what it's worth, is that the wood trim looks better.
    There is also a tendency for the carpet to look ragged at the edge.
                        
    If you don't live too far away, and would like to come and compare the
    different effects, please feel free (we live in Westford, Mass.).
    
    	Andrew  
    

    
    I have a Sears 10" table saw 1hp., is there a blade I could purchase
    to cut 1/2" teracotta sp? tile, for this saw?
    
    Pete

    I put in a tile floor over Labor Day weekend. Since I was using
    a very hard stoneware tile, the installer recommended I use a "wet
    saw" for making the cuts. (We tried a traditional score-and-snap
    cutter on the tiles, and they would not break straight.) What a
    great tool! It made very accurate, sharp cuts, and perfect 90 degree
    notches. And it was easy and safe to use. 
    
    The wet saw has a diamond blade and looks much like a small table saw.
    It's called a wet saw because it uses water to keep the blade cool and
    clean. There is a pan of water below the blade. The turning blade sucks
    up the water and sprays it on the tile as it is being cut. The blade
    does not have teeth and is smooth to the touch; you can touch your
    finger to the turning blade and not get cut. My wife did most of
    the cutting as I layed the tile. 
    
    As for putting a diamond blade on a regular table saw, I don't think
    it is possible. The need for water would just make modifications
    too messy and unsafe -- with electricity being right there. 
                                                              
    Wet saws can be rented from most rental places. Prices vary widely
    from $45 to $75 per day. I rented mine from Foley Tile in Maynard
    (just across from DEC mill parking lot) They charged $45 per day,
    and Sunday was free. Well worth it.                       
                                                              
    

    
     I second the suggestion of renting the wet saw. I just put down
    270 sq. ft. of floor tile this past weekend and used a wet saw for the
    first time. As far as I'm concerned it's the ONLY way to cut tile!!!
    I rented it from Taylor rental in Fitchburg, Ma. for $32 a day. 
    Be careful about hanging on to the table when cutting though the
    blade tends to grab the tile a really yank it through if you aren't
    hanging on tight. 
    
    
     -mike
    

    When I had to cut a number of ceramic tiles around my bath, I used one 
of the wire with Tungsten bits welded to it in a hacksaw frame. 
Understanding that the ceramic tile is not as hard as floor tile, is this 
blade a cheap alternative to a wet saw or wouldn't it work for the floor 
tile? Of course, if you have a big floor to do, the wet saw may save more 
time than the other saw and the cost would be acceptable due to the size of 
the project. Anyone ever try one of these blades for this?

    Vic H

    Please do not use your table saw.  I did, about 10 years ago, and
    spent a sunday afternoon in surgery.  The speed of most table saws
    is more than the blades can take. not to mention heat.  Anyway,
    the blade fragmented.  All that was left, of the blade, was the
    hub.  The rest of the blade went flying around the room.  I cought
    a piece of it from forehead to chin, breaking my saftey glasses.
    

    
    
    Looking for, buying and installing floor tiles is yet another
    homeowners adventure.  We just finished installing Verenza
    tile in our kitchen.  The tile is Italian and has a rough finish
    even though it is glazed.  We bought our tile at Boston Tile in
    Shrewsbury.  We went to quite a few stores and found them to be
    the most helpful and reasonably priced.  Similar materials at Color
    Tile were more expensive.
    
    A few things we learned from installers and Sales People in the
    process:
    
    	- Tiles with beveled edges are not as strong as tiles with flat
    	  edges.  The reason is that the material is thinner at the
          edge and is more succeptable to chips and cracks.  We were
    	  told that you will never see a #5 tile with beveled edges.
          Tile with beveled edges are more likely to trap dirt and stuff
    	  at the edges.
    
    	- Glazed Italian tiles are currently the best value and quality
    	  according to the majority of stores we shopped at.  We wanted
    	  to "Buy American" but found an imported tile with a higher
    	  hardness number, better glaze and cheaper than a domestic tile.
    
    	- Installation is everything.  Get the names of as many installers
    	  as you can.  Installation prices are all over the map, anywhere
    	  from $3/sq. ft. to $9/sq. ft.  Good, reasonably priced installers
    	  are few and far between.
    
        - Grout sealers for floor tiles are of questionable value. 
    	  Most people recommend Murphy's Oil Soap instead.
    
    
    Hope this helps.
    
    

I'm planning to lay tile on the floor of my entry way, 28 sq ft. I know that
the base flooring is not rigid enough for tile.

The floor  presently is sheet vinyl over 1/4" Luan. From reading the earlier
notes  regarding  the  rigidity of flooring, I am going to build up the area
with  plywood  and  reinforce  my  floor  joists,  as  they are 2X6's on 24"
centers.  My problem lies in the height of the door sill versus the finished
height of the floor.

The entryway  is  that of a typical split level or raised ranch. The doorway
enters  into  a  small  landing  with  6 steps up to main floor or 6 down to
basement.  The  measurements  for  the  sill  height are 1" from the present
floor.  The sketch below shows the exploded view.


-----.                                             |  |
     |                                             |  |
     |                                             |  |<-- Exterior Door
 s   |                                             |  |
 t   |         1/4" |                              `--'
 a   |              |                          ~~~ |~~|
 i   |              |                           1" |   \
 r   |______________v______________________________|    \
---------------------------------------------------
 |                                               |
 |         Floor Joists                          |
 `-----------------------------------------------'

The gyst of what I am trying to explain is that the recommendations from the
tile people  are  to  use 2- 5/8" plywood subfloors for laying tile on. If I
choose  to  put  down  a 3/4" and luan, plus the tile and mortar, the "TRIP"
factor  really  comes into play. The floor edge will protrude 1/2" above the
sill  making it treacherous for anyone entering . Has anyone moved there sill
to alleviate this type of problem? BTW, the door bottom is adjustable. ;-)

    I just laid 6x6 teraccota tile down.
    
    I'm getting ready to put down the grout.  
    Could  someone give me the steps to take when doing this job.
    The grout is the cement "like" grout I also purchased the latex adative
    for add'l flexability.  The things I would like to know are: how
    long should I let the mix sit before using?, How do I clean up the
    grout that is on top of the tile?   
    
    If you can offer advice.. Thanks
    
    Pete
    
    

    
    	When I did my floor the direction said to let the grout sit
    for 1/2hour and the person who sold me the stuff said to mix the
    grout to the consistency of apple sauce.  After putiing it down
    I waited still the grout turn a white on the tiles then cleaned
    it up with sponge and water.  I used rubber gloves and a sponge
    trowel to work the stuff into the spaces.
    
    	Don
    

>< Note 412.42 by NWACES::LANOUE "Who said it's going to be easy?" >
>                              -< half hour or so >-
>
>    
>    	When I did my floor the direction said to let the grout sit
>    for 1/2hour and the person who sold me the stuff said to mix the
>    grout to the consistency of apple sauce.  After putiing it down
>    I waited still the grout turn a white on the tiles then cleaned
>    it up with sponge and water.  I used rubber gloves and a sponge
>    trowel to work the stuff into the spaces.
>    
>    	Don
    
Don't use a wet sponge to clean up the excess grout, this will take the color
pigment out of the grout. Do use a scrub brush sold at tile store's for
this purpose (like a Scotch brite pad). Or/and use burlap to buff out the
haze residue.

    Its the "haze residue" I am worried about. 
                
    when do you buff it out? after it has dryed?
      
    

    Re .44
    
    The pros who did our kitchen floor used old burlap sacks to buff
    the floor after the haze had dried - about an hour or so after 
    application of the grout.
    
    pbm
    

    With an *unglazed* quarry tile, the haze is more difficult to remove.
    My local tile dealer sold me a product called "Remove," made especially
    for removing the grout haze and the latex additive residue. It worked
    fine for me. It cost $4.75 for an 8 oz bottle of the concentrate (made
    3 gallons). 
                      

Wait about 15-20 mins. to remove the white haze. Burlap does an excellent job.

    I look through the notes dealing with ceramic tiles
    and couldn't find the information needed.  Mr. Moderator,
    feel free to move this note if I missed it.
    
    The question has to do with tiling around electric boxes
    on walls.  The walls are already covered with plasterboard,
    and now we are going to put  ceramic tile on those walls.
    What do you do about electric outlets? Do you just get longer
    screws to attach the plate to the box? or do you
    have to move the boxes somehow? Or is there something
    else that should be done?
    
    Thanks,
    Rich

    (This reply is practically guaranteed to trigger response from noters
     who really know what they're talking about.)

>   Do you just get longer screws to attach the plate to the box?
    Longer screws will enable you to mount the plate on the tile, but the
switch/outlet will then be 1/4" INSIDE the plate.  This is impractical,
probably unattractive and likely against code.

    Electric switch/outlet boxes should be mounted so that they're flush with
the finish wall.  You may have to break away some of the plasterboard to pull
out the box (turn off the power on that circuit first) and re-nail it.  I'm
not aware of any way to jack the actual switch/outlet out the extra 1/4" or so
to bring it out to the front of the ceramic tile.

    Good luck cutting the tile.  We did some tiling in our kitchen, rented the
appropriate cutting/breaking tools, destroyed a few tiles trying to cut corners
off, brought some tiles to the store, and watched THEM break most of them
before getting it right.  (Our tiles were pretty thick.)

    	I just used longer screws to reattach the outlets to the box.
    The electrical inspector didn't say anything.  I'm not sure it's
    100% legal.  The ears on the outlets rested against the tiles. 
    	When cutting tiles to fit around outlets, invest in a rod saw.
    It is a piece of wire that is covered with carbide flakes and mounts
    in a hack saw frame.  You can only score and snap in one direction,
    and using the nibbler will take all day.  You might want to also
    have some Crazy Glue on hand, depending on how patient you are.
    
    					=Ralph=

    
    What I did (and what .2 eluded to) was cut the tiles so that the
    ears of the outlet rest on top of the tiles.  Then the outlet cover
    will be flush with the tiles and with the outlet.

    If I recall correctly, the Code specifies that the box must enclose the
    wires, keeping them away from combustible materials.  Since tiles are
    not combustible, you may not have to move the box, as long as the box
    covers any combustible stuff that the tiles are mounted on.  Check the
    Code to be sure.

   I don't know that I would go to the extreme to tear out a box, thats
    nailed to a stud to move the box out only to try and nail it back
    in and then have to redo the plaster work. The easier way is to
    go to your local electrical supply house and but a couple of electrical
    box extenders. I believe they come in sizes down to 1/4". I put
    barnboard in my family room after that the plugs needed to be extended
    3/4" so the extenders screw into the existing box and the plug or
    switch into the extender, and then the cover on top. There's someone
    out there that already had the problem and made money on it !!!!

    Does anyone know where these 'electrical box extenders' are sold
    in this area?  Builder Square? Spags?  ???
    
    Mark

    I've seen them at Aubuchon Hardware in Maynard, in both metal and
    plastic.   I think the ones they have extende the box a lot, like an
    inch or so.  Any well-stocked hardware store should have at least some
    of them.   For best selection, go to a real electrical supply house.
    
    There's some confused terminology around these things, by the way:
    
    - I think what we're talking about are strictly called "extension rings".
    
    - "box extenders" are thingies that attach to the _side_ of a box and
      hide behind the finished wall, allowing you to fit more wires into the
      box.
    
    - "plaster rings" are much like extension rings, except they also pinch
      in at the front to form places to mount devices (e.g. outlets and
      switches).  They're used to convert a 4" square box into a single or
      double device box.
    
    It's a good idea to have your terminology straight when you go to a
    real electrical supply store.  If anybody can correct my terminology
    comments above, please do.

    Re .5 - I take back what I said about maybe going down to 1/4" they don't
    make them. The industry leader (RACO) in electrical supplies only
    makes one size 1-1/2" deep with knock out on the sides. The industry
    and the supply houses seem to just  them just
    "EXTENTIONS". Raco makes one P/N # 203, and 201. They only make them
    in metal, but the supply houses siad they will fit both metal and
    plastic boxes. I look at them first ! Two places that had them
    were :
    
         Standard Electric Supply , Wilmington MA 508-658-5050
    
                             and
    
         Lowell Electic Supply, Lowell MA 508-452-8985.
    
    
    Another thought, why not make your own box extendors ?
    If you own one or have access to a table saw why not buy a
    .25 plastic box and cut it to the size you need, then use two long
    srcews to go through the plug, extention, to the orginal box ?
    As long as the extention fits flush against the new box, when you
    tighten the screws it'll be nice and tight.
    
    
      s

    
    
        Re: 8, excellent suggestion on fabricating you own extensions,
    
               if your only talking 1/4" I don't believe that you'll
        find that size. As far as cutting a plastic box with a table
    saw I don't know sounds kind of dangerous, if you buy the metal
    extensions, you can easily cut them to size with a pair of
    tin snips. the idea of the box enclousure is to contain all live
    metal parts which are capable of causing a spark, the terminals
    of the outlet for example, if you talking about 1/4' increase your
    terminals may not extend pass the box even after you bring the outlet
    forward, as well the screws will still reach, if the terminals come
    close to the edge wrap the outlet teminal screws with electrical
    tape. With all due respect to the noter who suggested taking the
    boxes out, this is not a wise idea if the work is original, you
    would create an enourmous amout of unnnecessary work for yourself.
    if the outlets were installed after the original wall then you may
    have old work boxes which are usually easy to remove.
    
    Steve
    

    Re. 8 - Darn ! I thought I did a good job at coming up with that.
       I even went to my friends house and tried it out, a pure plastic
       box cuts perfect with a finish blade. I made a jig so I wouldn't
       loose my typing fingers. The more harder plastic boxes cracked.
       I don't have a metal boxes to try tin snips on, will it really
       work on the metal boxes, aren't they kind of thick ?????
    
    

    
       I was at sommerville lumber last week and noticed a ceramic looking
    tile board that comes in 4'x8' sheets.  I was thinking of using
    it in an upstairs bath from floor to ceiling and also around the
    shower.  Does any one have any exp. or suggestions in the use of
    this material?????????
    
    thanks,
    Dan

    
    I brought one six month ago while it was on sale.
    I don't like it.  It is expensive but as so good as real ceramic
    tile.  Also difficult to cut.  The surface is only a thin plastic
    very often it break while cutting.
    
    It looks like ceramic tile but you can easily tell it is not real.
    I installed it around the wall of sink in bathroom.  It looks nice.
    At least better than nothing.  But next time I prefer to use real
    ceramic tile.
    

    
    
    
      I used this stuff to do over a bath and wouldn't go any other way.
    It's simple to cut with a good fine tooth saw and you never have to
    deal with grout. Probably the biggest problem in bathrooms is the
    real tile falling off the walls after so many years.
     I wouldn't say its easy to tell its not real. You'd have to get a
    real close look to make that call.
    
    BAL
    
    

    Re .2
    
    If you've had REAL ceramic tile you can tell at a glance. (My bathroom
    is THAT wide, or I'm not that blind) With the new adhesives you can get
    a real solid, nice job and have a lot of pride in what you do. I put in
    1000+ sq ft of floor & wall tile in my house when it was being built
    and I wouldn't have it any other way. You can do about 100 sq ft a day
    (Hey this was my first time doing it) and the value added is far more
    at the other end.
    
    BTW: I used Torre Tile in Hartford Conn. for all my tile and supplies
    and paid $1.40 to $2.00 per sq ft for 1st quality Italian tile. This
    fit very nicely in my $2.50/sq ft flooring allowance.

    
    
      I currently have the real stuff in my new home. But it sure wasn't
    a selling point for the realtor. I put in the sheet stuff at my old
    house and the people who bought it loved it. They had to ask if it
    was real or not. 
    
    
    BAL

    I installed what I believe is the same thing , mine was called Barker
    Tile. The price was approx. $32.00 a sheet ( $1 a sq. ft.). I installed
    this 2 1/2 years ago, and an extreemly pleased with it. I would
    agree that it is easy to cut, if you use a fine tooth saw. The finish
    has held up perfectly. The one complaint I had was that it was
    impossible not to have a seam in the shower enclosure. If the company
    made a sheet approx. 6x7 to cover the wall behind the bathtub, the
    installation would be flawles. Currently there is a seam in the
    shower area, but let me add that the Barker Tile accepted the silicon
    sealer readily and I have had no (zero) problems with water infiltration.
               Just my 2 centz
                Bob D.

    We put up the same thing over the green tile in the kitchen of our
    condo.  It really looked good and people really didn't notice that
    it wasn't tile.  Of course, it helped with the resale value of the
    condo because the kitchen looked like it had been done over (along
    with the new linoleum and wallpaper). 
    
    Since the board had to be cut anyway, my husband bought damaged
    pieces for about $16.00 a sheet.
    
    Kathy

...Arrrgh!   3 titles short.  Glad I did a dry run.  

Quick scenario; I have a small half bath I'm in the process of 
titling, 5'x 5'.  I received about 40 free titles from a friend to do 
the job.  I finished my dry run needing 1 full title and portions 
around the flange to finish.  No problem?  Well it is if you can't 
find the type of title you were using.  Here is what I need help on.

I'm looking for an off white title 8 3/8" x 8 3/8".  That is my problem, 
the size.  The box which the titles came in says made in Spain and has 
the name(s); Pamesa, Almazora, Castellon, on it.  Also it says "Pame, Gres" 
on the back of the title, whatever that means.

I've already asked my friend where he bought the title.  He didn't buy 
them, they were given to him from a friend.  This friend of my friend 
received them by trading two chairs for them. [confused yet]  For all I know 
the titles were used to smuggle cocaine into the country and I'll have 
coke sniffing dogs barking at my door in no time.

Any leads on were I can try will be appreciated.  So far I have tried 
Color Title in Leominster, Foley Title in Maynard and Summerville Lumber
in Acton.    

Thanks,

Bill
         

    One thing you could try, which is by no means the preferred, is
    to pick a secluded corner of the room.  Place the unmatched tile
    in this corner.  This way, you can just get some tile that comes
    close and only you (hopefully) will know that you had to cheat.
    
    As I said, it is not the preferred method, but should work.
    
    Ed..
    

There's a place down the Cape that does specialty tile, they had 
a lot of spanish and other imported tiles.

They are in Orleans, and are called Peacock Alley

Good Luck,


Karen 

    Re .0
    
    Boston Tile has a fairly large selection...also check the yellow
    pages to see who specializes in the more exotic, imported tiles.
    If that doesn't work out you could try a couple of alternatives:
    
    1.  Find a similar tile in a contrasting color and use it as a
        border.
    
    2.  What kind of sink is in the room (pedestal or vanity)?  If
        pedestal you may want to convert to a vanity (not necessarily
        the cheapest alternative but if you're determined to use the
        freebie tiles) then you can cheat a bit since you wouldn't have
        to tile completely under the vanity.
    
    It sounds like you have no margin for error - hope you don't have
    to do any cutting or you could end up more than 3 tiles short.
    
    Good Luck!
    
    P.S.  To the Moderator - could you please fix the spelling of the
          title so it can be located at a later date?  Thanks.

    For tiles, try Albert Fitzgerald, Inc., in Woburn
    (617)935-7821.  
    
    Read those Spanish names to them, and they might recognize something.
    

    
    
    ARRRGH! Again   Title = tile.  See how upset this got me.  That
    is what I get for not paying attention to my spell editor.
    
    Thanks for the comments back. I have changed the "title" to tile
    but the text remains.  If anyone [moderator] knows how I can edit
    the text please call me. [293-5308]
    
    Thanks again
    
    Bill

    There's a place on Rte. 20 in Millbury called International Tile.
    They've been there for only a few months and I haven't had the time
    to stop and check them out. But judging by the name, maybe they
    carry imported tile from Spain and can help you. Good luck!

    Do yer' the entire edge of the room in a different tile... looks
    great!
    
    -Brian

    You can try the Upstairs-Downstairs in Nagog woods shopping
    center on 2A in Acton.
    
    Alternatively you might turn the unplanned shortage into
    something that looks like it was planned all along. Arrange
    for the missing tiles to be where some kind of decoration
    would be acceptable, and then substitute some kind of
    accent pieces or decorative tile.

    
    
    Sounds like a similar problem to when I had to have the bottom 3 rows
    of tile removed from my shower to the the cheap #4%^^%#$%#$ of a
    builder using "blueboard" instaed of tileboard behind the tiles.
    I carefully removed all the tiles, but did manage to break a few in the
    process. Not only did I discover that there was no way to match the
    color( couldn't even get close) biut the &^%#$%$# of a builder had
    apparently boght out some surplus stock of old tile which was an
    obsolete size (smaller by 1/8") 
    
     I ended up by finding a source for the tile size, in a complimentary
    color, and put a boarder on the bottom- the bottom row all around
    is the new tiles. Looks great- sure beats what the installer told me-
    "you cant match it, so we have tear out THE WHOLE BATHROOM and do it
    over.
    
     I had tile put in the floor of a new addition and in my front foyer-
    I made sure that ALL the lkeftover tiles were left in my care- Good
    thing- my Son and his buddies moved a piano for me and rolled it
    across my foyer about 5 yrs later- Busted a bunch of tiles- fixed it up
    in no time with the "spares". I also had the installer leave all the
    leftover colored grout- perfect match- can't see the repairs!!!
    
    
      You can spen forever trying to match the tiles- Pick a tile that
    complements what you have and use it for a boarder- I would strongly
    recommend this as you will then have some spares of both the main tile
    and the border in case of breakage in the future.
    
    Dick
    
    
    
    

    
    when we removed the loosen tiles from the wall above
    the bath tub, tiles came down with some papers, woods...(??).
    
    how can i clean the tile before i put them back (regrout
    them)? 
    
    moderator. i have checked the related topic, but none talked
    about the materials on the back of the tile. please remove it
    to the related topic if you found one.
    
    thank you.
    
    rita

    Just place tiles in water.....the grout in water based.
    After a little time you can wash then off.
    That is what I did to the tiles that came off at home..
    Maybe someone out thier can tell you better.
    
       GUS
    

    I am renovating a shower stall and will be working with WONDERBOARD
    for the first time.  To date, I have removed the shower tiles and
    sheetrock.  All that remains is to put up the WONDERBOARD and re-tile.
    Before I condem my next few weekends I want to be sure I have all
    the right information.  I have few questions:
    
    	1. should I bring the WONDERBOARD down flush to the top of my
    	   fiber glass shower base?  The literature I've read seems to
    	   indicate you should leave a small gap and put in a silicon
    	   sealant; if so why?
    
    	2. a fact sheet from the WONDERBOARD manufacturer recommends
    	   a small gap between WONDERBOARD joints.  The gaps should
    	   be filled with portland cement mortar and fiber glass tape.
    	   Should I do the same thing at the seam at the top of my
    	   shower stall base?
    
    	3. I will be putting on a metal corner bead to the edge of one
    	   side of the WONDERBOAD.  Can I joint compound part of the
    	   WONDERBOARD (the part that will later be painted), then add
    	   cement on top of the joint compound?

    	4. what tools are recommended for cutting WONDERBOARD?
        
    Thanks,
    
    	- Tom
    

    Having never laid tile before, I'd appreciate a little advise before I
    get myself into serious trouble...
    
    Do I really need grout?  I've seen a floor done in what looked like
    slate or stone tile that butted right up next to one another.  "Wow!" I
    said, "I wouldn't have to putz around with spacers, grouting, sealing
    the grout..."  When I asked about it at the local building supply
    store, the salesperson looked at me like I had just landed from Mars.
    
    I'm finishing my basement, so I have the option of installing the floor
    then the sheetrock walls.  I'd like to do it in that order because it
    would give me that extra 1/2" of hiding space since the sheetrock is a
    little more forgiving when it comes to cuts and the baseboard molding is
    taller than it is wide.  Am I overlooking something?
    
    
    John B.

    
     Plaster (sheetrock) dust is VERY abrasive! You will VERY likely
    damage your floor, at least to some extent, AND putting up the
    sheetrock will take you longer because you will have to be extra
    careful of the finished floor all the time you are doing the
    sheetrocking. It will also be more difficult to clean up the dust
    from the finished floor, both getting it all up AND it will take
    longer than if it was an unfinished floor.
    
      BTW - You don't need those spacers between the tile. I have tried
    to use those on 2 different jobs and have found that it's easier
    to line-up the tile by eye.
    					Kenny

    How do I fix an uncleanable bathroom floor?
                              
    I'm stuck.  I've tried everything recommended in the notes file to
    clean the dirty grout on parts of my bathroom floor but the more I
    clean, the dirtier it gets.  So far I've used Ajax, Tilex, and Bleach
    to no avail.  Do I really need to dig up the old grout and put new
    grout in?  Any way to "paint" the grout? 

    Help much appreciated.

    RE .6
    
    Has the floor been waxed?  Perhaps the problem is wax over the
    dirt.  Before going to such extremes as removing the grout you
    might want to try some floor wax remover and then try cleaning
    with one of the heavy-duty tile & grout cleaners.
    
    ep

Try undiluted  Muriatic  acid,  available  in  many hardware stores.  CAREFULLY
paint  it over  the  grout,  although  it  should  be  harmless  to  the  tiles
themselves.  

THIS STUFF IS POTENT!!!!  Use  RUBBER  gloves,  have  the room VERY WELL VENTED
(use a fan to exhaust the fumes),  wear  GOGGLES  (splash  protection) and have
water handy for dilution if there are problems.    Cleanup with COPIOUS amounts
of water (sponge should be ok).

I don't mean to scare you with the warnings,  just keep you healthy.  I use the
stuff  quite  a  bit  and have never had a problem,  but  the  precautions  are
necessary.  Mutiatic acid is quite caustic.

Dave

    I would second the Muriatic acid attempt. We had not fully cleaned
    the grout glaze off our tiles after installation. Several months
    later we finally got around to it. We found that the process also
    cleaned dirt off the grout too (Although you probably don't want
    to do this often. I would imagine that what you are probably doing
    is removing a thin layer of the grout.
    
    However, I would try a pass with diluted acid first. We diluted
    ours, 2 parts water to 1 part acid, and it worked fine.
    
    							Mark
    

	Moderator I've looked thru most of the other notes on tile
	and solar and was unable to find an answer.  If this topic
	is discussed elsewhere... please direct me and delete this
	reply.

	I'm building a new home with a 13' x 24' solarium attached.
	I want to install a tile for durability and thermal mass.
	Does anyone have experience or knowledge of installation 	
	using the "THICK SET" method.  From what I've been able to
	gather it's a base of slightly damp sifted sand 1" to 3"
	thick, a sprinkling of portland, a misting of water, the
	desired tiles and then mortar/grouting.  That's less than
	specific but all I have.  I would like this to be a DIY project
	but welcome the names of installers that can do the job.  The
	house is in Westford, Ma..  There must be some DIYs out there
	that can help.  Thanks in advance.
Frank

>                             <<< Note 412.50 by TRITON::FERREIRA >>>
>                                   -< THICK SETTING TILES? >-

      I think what you're thinking of is often called a "mud job".  As I
      understand it -- which isn't all that well -- it envolves  bedding
      the  tiles in an inch or so (or more?)  of a sand/cement morter --
      more or less as you describe.  And it certainly  would  proved  at
      least  2-3 times the thermal mass of the thin set method generally
      used today.  Unfortunately I have no information on relative costs
      or  details  of  how  to  go about it.  Maybe a trip to your local
      library is in order.

    I'm going to be taking some tiles off around the tub to put up a
    bathroom insert(tub surround) in order to get a rough surface for the
    adhesive that this instructions advise. Can anyone give me any tips as
    to how to get them off easily? Also What is the best approach if I
    run into ants or termites? 

This note has been temporarily write-locked pending approval of the author.

To the author:  This subject is already under discussion in this file, under the
topics listed in the title.  Please look at these notes; you may find that your
question is already answered, or you may find a note where your question would
be an appropriate continuation of the discussion.  Note that since nearly
everyone uses NEXT UNSEEN to read notes, your question will get the same
exposure whether it is a response to a two-year-old note or it is its own new
note. These topics were found using the keyword directory (note 1111), and you
may find other notes relating to this subject by examining the directory
yourself. 

We do, however, welcome new notes if they explore a specific aspect of a 
problem that may be under general discussion.  And this moderator has been 
known to make mistakes. :^)  So if after examining these notes, you wish to 
continue the discussion here, send me mail.

Paul [Moderator]

    I am looking for an easy way to remove grout from a bathroom floor.
    I am presently using a scraper for grout removal, I was wondering
    if anybody had an easier method?  Any help would be appreciated.
    
    
    Joe

    
    Use a grout removal tool. Its like a blade with clourse metal particles
    on it. I picked one up at Color Tile for a few bucks. Great tool.
    
    

    Call tile city in Leominster at Searstown Mall , they have a product
    (chemical) for just that.

I have a shower/tub area with ceramic wall tile that has a nice covering
of white chalky film on it. I'd like to get it off. Some of the
previous notes, eg the ones that suggest bleach, are more for mildew
problems. That is not the case here. Also, I need to clean the tile (the
grout is fine). This film is from use, and from soap. It is not from
the installation (when the extra grout was completely removed).

I tried using Muriatic acid and don't see any difference. The bottle
of acid I have says 20% dilution, and recommended 3 parts water to 1 part
of acid from the bottle. I remembered from chemistry days that there is
a correct order in which to dilute acid, but I didn't remember which way
it was (pour water into acid? pour acid into water?)... so I guessed.
I poured water very slowly into the acid, saw some smoke (said some
incantations). I brushed the liquid onto some test tiles, waited a few
seconds, rinsed it off, wiped it dry, and.... no difference. I tried
again, letting it sit for about 5 minutes.... no difference.

What did I do wrong? Did I leave something out? Are you supposed to
scrub the tile too? And I thought it would work like magic!

Thanks...

d

    ...can't answr your cleaning problem but I've always thought the way
    to mix two fluids was to pour the 'dangerous' one (acid, insecticide,
    etc.) into the harmless (less harmfull?) one in order to avoid
    splashing the harmfull one out of the container.
    
    Not being a chemist I couldn't tell you if there's any other reason
    for doing it differently....
    
    Edd

This is going back a while,   but I believe you add the acid to 
the water because the water has a lower surface tension, and thus 
allows the acid to blend.  The acid has a higher surface tension which 
makes it more hazardous to pour something into it. 

Always Add Acid.

That way you only splash water **and** if the reaction is violent 
(like really exothermic?) the small amounts of water going into the 
acid might flash into steam, expand very rapidly, and blow acid all
over the place. 

That was the story in semiconductor manufacture, anyway.

John H.

	re: cleaning film from tile

	 I've had good luck with white automotive polishing compound.
	 Generally used by auto body shops to polish a newly painted
	 repair, it won't scratch a ceramic tile glaze, but has enough
	 abrasiveness to cut thru the film.

  	 It's not an easy job, but it does work. Put a little on a damp
	 rag and gently polish the tile, let the compound dry to a haze
	 and wipe off the excess. If the grout is white, then if a
	 little compound gets between the tiles, you won't see it. After
	 the whole area's been cleaned of film, apply a sealer.

	 The compound is in a green can and you can find it at most auto
	 stores, K-mart, Bradlees, etc, etc. Make sure you get the WHITE
	 stuff as there are different grades which are identifiable by
	 color.

	 
	 	 Chris

Am I missing something, or are you just talking about lime deposits?

Lime-A-Way works fine (almost like "magic") for my tiles...

Bob

    Is there some kind of wire mesh that can be put down on the floor
    before the cement?  This would tie the 4X8 sheets of plywood together
    similar to the effect that mesh tape has on a sheetrock seam to
    prevent shifting.  Or would this be a wast of time and money?
                                               
    Mark

    Tilex may work and...
    Once you have cleaned the film from the tile,
    Wipeing the walls after every shower will/should prevent that from
    happening again.     

    I use some form of generic "Soft Scrub" and a little elbow grease!
    
    Joyce
    :^)

I don't think tape (mesh or paper) on sheetrock is intended to prevent shifting
nor can it.  One strip of tape can't be expected to prevent one 4x8 sheet of
drywall from twisting/warping/shifting.  If the drywall shifts beyond what its
drywall screws allow, the tape won't stop it either.

I'd think anything applied to 4x8 sub-flooring would fare just as poorly.

    Sorry this doesn't help clean up your tiles but, to back up some of the
    earlier replies, we were taught the following in chemistry lessons at
    school:
    
    This poor child lies calm and placid
    He added water to the acid
    The other one did what he oughter
    He added acid to the water
    
    Actually it was an all boys school, disgracefully sexist, and the
    children were female and male, in that order, in the original version.
    
    Apologetically
    
    Dick

    Can I place Ceramic TIle over existing Ceramic tile
    I am in the process of replacing my bathroom tile floor, what is
    presently down is also a ceramic tile floor. The ceramic floor which
    is presently in my bathroom is the wrong color, not cracked or lifting.
    Should I remove the present tile floor and clean (somehow) the
    subflooring, or should I just tile over the existing tile floor?

    
    1) Remove old tile
    2) Remove or cover old underlayment, with new underlayment.
    
     I've always replace the underlayment, no chance of problems later,
    especially in a bathroom where the floor gets damp from showers,
    toilets overflowing, etc.
    
    

    I have a similar problem with the additional issue of the very small
    (1 inch) tiles and probably a thickset 'underlayment'.  The house
    is over 35 years old.
    
    Considering the answer in .1 - then the question becomes:
    
    	HOW to remove the old tile?  Hammer and chisel???
    
    -Barry-
    

    	Try Scrub Free. I have used it on the fiberglass tub, fixtures,
    and sliding glass doors and see no reason why it wouldn't work on
    tiles. For soap scum it works as it's name implies.
    
    	Ray

    
    
      Hammer, Chisel, Ballpeen hammer also works real nice, but take
    out the china first !
    
     I use a crow bar and go between the underlayment and the sub-floor
    and take it all up, then put down new underlayment. Bath rooms usally
    only take about 1 to 2 sheets.
    
    

    
    
    Please be sure that if you go smashing up the tiles you wear protective
    eye wear.  Those chips are nasty.

I put a new ceramic tile floor over my existing mosaic tile floor in my 
bathroom. I put 8x8 tiles set on a diagnal. The job came out great! If yours is 
the same as mine, you probably have a MUD base. If you rip up the old tile, I 
guarantee you won't be able to get a smooth surface. Just lay out the new tile, 
cut it(use spacers if necessary), set down athin set mortar and set the tiles. 
After two days, grout it. 
The only thing that is tricky is cutting around the toilet. Use cardboard as a 
model tile and cut it with scissors.

Just take your time.

Let me know if you need any further advise.
Regards,
-Chuck

    RE: .4  Tile under the toilet by removing the toilet, when refitting
    the toilet you may need to use a double wax ring.  I wouldn't recommend
    tiling around the toilet.
    
    

    
    Sure go right over it ! and when you're tired of that put linolium
    right over those two layers while you're at it.
    
    

                     <<< Note 3323.7 by BAGELS::RIOPELLE >>>
                          -< I couldn't resist....\ >-

    
>>    Sure go right over it ! and when you're tired of that put linolium
>>    right over those two layers while you're at it.
  

Alright smart guy, how do you get a smooth surface after you rip up the 1st 
layer of tile from a "mud job"?
    

    Well I've been through all the TILE&SLATE notes and found nothing
    on "how to....." instructions for putting in a mud base shower
    stall floor.                  
    I am planning to build a custom neo-angle show stall 48" @ corner
    walls and 24" @ side-walls. I plan to use a combination of ceramic
    tile and glass blook for the finish work.
    
    I have found a sheet metal shop that will make up the copper plan to
    line the bottom. My questions are:
    
    1. Is 5.5" height for the copper pan reasonable.  Nailed into
       a 2x6" horizontal framing at the base plate of the walls.
    
    2. Is there a special drain fixture the I use to solder to the
       copper pan that will accept PVC as the drain line to the waste
       stack.  How is it's height adjusted to compensate for mud depth.
    
    3. Is the Wonderboard installed to over-lap or but to the copper
       pan......and is the Wonderboard intsalled before or after doing
       the mud floor.                         
    
    2. I've seen mud jobs done on TOH, and all I seem to remember is
       that you use a "dry mix" of ?????? cement, graded 1/4" per foot
       toward the drain. Also, is the tile then set directly onto this
       "dry-mix" base or do you let that cure and then use a conventional
       thin-set process on top of the "cement pad".  Can anybody provide
       more details on the materials and procedures for doing "mud tile
       jobs.  Any recommended reading???
    
       I've done lots of tile and marble work before using thin-set mortar cement
       with a latex fortifier....but this will be my first "mud job". 

I know this is said often - but hey, it's a great magazine.  Fine Homebuilding 
had an extensive article on exactly this about 2 years ago.

Paul

    On a related topic:
    
      I want to change my toilet because my wife wants a new color.
      Can I put the new toilet on top of the old one?  :)  :)
    
      Will I have to flush twice?

    I've heard of two-story outhouses in places where they get lots of snow.
    You don't have to flush at all.

                        <LET'S BE REAL....!!!>
    
    If your going to do a good job....DO IT RIGHT!!! Don't pussyfoot
    around. I'd suggest ripping the old tile out granted it won't be
    fun and it's going to take a long time to do but it will come out
    a lot better. As far as those other responses go ( putting tile
    on top of tile, your crazy!!!), also about worrying about the old
    mud (or concrete,if you prefer) the trowel that you use has a 3/8"
    notch in it so it should be enough cushion between the old mud +
    the new tile going down. Granted you take out the old mud as best
    you can then it should be all set. I installed tile in my kithen
    6 yrs. ago and still looks good. 
    
      Some of you people out there...I DON'T KNOW ABOUT!!! Just do a
    half_*ss_job, save a lot of time + grief and your all set. 
    
    
    just my $.02 worth
    
            (HAPPY TILEING!!!)
    

    
    To rip out tile go to some of the rental places and get a tile remover.
    It'll make the job a lot easier. Last year we replaced our carpeting
    and we rented one to remove the old carpeting (it was glued down
    rubber backed, 190 yds).
    
    Mike

    Somerville Lumber is selling what they call imported tile at 59 cents
    each.  The salesman says that it's very good tile and will hold up well
    for kitchen use.  I'm a bit skeptical given the price.  I expected to
    pay a lot more for tile although we did like the color.  Is tile much
    like anything else in that you get what you pay for?  I really want a
    a good quality tile, one that is durable for kitchen use.  Any
    suggestions?

    To compare tile pricing fairly you should convert the .59/tile to
    the per square foot cost.  For instance, if you are talking about
    a 4"x4" tile, the equivalent cost is $5.31/SqFt; or for a 6"x6"
    tile the equicalent cost is $1.64/SqFt.
    
    Fro my experience, Somerville's prices, even when on sale, for ceramic
    tile, is significantly higher than prices at Marcello Tile (Marlboro)
    or CTW Tile (Norwood).
    
    BTW, imported from where????  There is lots of ceramic tile actually
    being imported from Taiwan and Korea........nothing wrong with thios
    tile, in fact it is often cheaper. Do not assume that imported is
    necessarily from Italy or Mexico.

    a 6x6 tile at $.59 ea is $2.36/sf
    
    ...tom

To all of you "BOB VILA'S" out there, I have done two bathroom floors with 8" 
Ceramic Tile over Mosaic, one set on a diagnal and one set straight. I just 
took out the threshold in both cases, raised it, and tiled right over the old 
floor. 

I GUARANTEE THAT YOU CANNOT TELL THERE WAS A TILE FLOOR UNDERNEATH!


If you want to change the tile in five years, you can rip it up, and still get 
a smooth surface.
 

    In a related subject, my neighbor had a tile floor installed by
    a contractor and he put the mud floor over the linoleum. (or congoleum)
    I was surprised. He said the guy put the mesh down with many nails
    but right over the surface that was on the floor. the floor has
    been down about one year and still looks great.   
    
    Anybody ever do this?

	One more tile question....well, a few questions! 

	We're in the process of re-doing the kitchen and have decided
	on a tile floor so we're all set with the subfloor, flexing
	stuff.   We're planning to install the cabinets first and then
	tile ($$$) but we're also going to be using toe-kick heaters
	to replace the hot-water radiator.

	Should we put an additional layer of plywood under the cabinets
	so the base of the cabinets is level with the top of the tile?
	My concern is more for the efficiency of the heaters but also for 
	the counter height.  Will the tile stick up too far in front of 
	the heaters to work efficiently?  Will the counters be at an odd
	working height without the additional layer of flooring?

	Also, in .7 there was mention of "grout leveling stuff".  What is 
	it?  How/why is it used?

	Conni

    I just finished installing a toe-kick heater, and it would be a simple
    matter to just mount it on a piece of plywood approx. the same
    thickness as your tile.  This would keep the heater on the same plane
    as the new floor.  Most cabinets have plenty of height in the toe
    space to accomodate raising the heater a bit.
    
    Bob

    The only thing I'd worry about W.R.T the different levels is that
    it's a bit of a pain to move appliances if they don't sit at the
    same level as the rest of the world.. sometimes this causes problems
    with the counter height (stove is too tall, gap above dishwasher,
    etc..)
    
    ...tom

    	I have a 22 x 21 family room. The underlayment is 2X10 with
     8 foot span 16 " on center. The flooring is 3/4 " TG glued and
    nailed and 1/2 " plywood nailed. I have 2" of fiberglass mixed
    concrete and ruberized (4 200 ft lengths) in the concrete for
    heating the room. This tubing is designed for radiant floor heating.      
    I also have a 8 X 6 mudroom with 3/4 ' TG and 1/2 " plywood
    that I will be laying the tile on also.
    	I am about to install the tile flooring. I have the following
    question on the glue I should use for approximately 500 sq feet.    
    Color Tile recommentds the following:
    
    1st choice:		14 gallons of system 200    $440.02
    			 6 gallons Grout            $ 86.64
    			 3 gallons latex additive   $ 30.57
                             additive for grout
    
    2nd choice:		8 50 lb bags thin set       $ 95.92
    			16 gallons latex additive   $163.04
                         6 gallons Grout            $ 86.64
                         3 gallons latex additive   $ 30.57
        
    Sommerville Lumber:  7 Boxes thinset            $175.00
    			 7 boxes grout              $100.00
    
    	So the question is do I need the latex additive with the thin
    set and is the premixed SYSTEM 200 GAL k (MINI) that much better
    than thin set with or without the latex additive.
    
    Thanks for any help or advice
    Craig Barlow

    I am not familiar with the system 200, however I can advise you
    to definaetly use the latex additive with if you go the thinset
    route.
    
    BTW, Somerville is definately no the cheapest supplier for tile
    goods, try Marcello's (Waltham,Marlboro,Framingham) or Ceramic
    Tile Warehouse (Norwood).  Both will "deaL" quantity and CASH.
    Also, Marcello's discounts heavily to contractors, builder's etc;
    so if you can do so through a friend, you'll save even more money.

    
    Also try National Tile in N. Reading. Very good prices (the tiles I
    bought cost 1/2 what color tile wanted and color tile needed to special
    order). They have everything you could need to tile anything. Very
    helpful and knowlegable (sp?) people. 

    Thanks for the advice. I will call H B Fuller and will visit National
    Tile in N. Reading today. This should get me on track with
    understanding tile installation.
    
    Craig Barlow

     I just finished installing it for a shower stall.  We have a window
    right in the middle of the long wall of the tub.  When I bought
    the house, it didn't have a shower, so I bought two sheets of very
    good tile board.  I cut one piece twice to make the two ends.  I
    laid them on thier sides so the top of the stall would be 4' high.
    With the other piece, I cut it to length (6.5'), sized it for the
    widow, and installed it so the top of the piece would be 4' off
    the tub.  It went on very well using liquid nails and some corner
    trim.  
     One thing I did to cover the fake look, was to cut moldings that
    match what I trimmed the window and door with, and trim the top
    and outside edges of the sheets.  I just made sure every thing was
    level, then tight, then stained and sealed.  I used a clear sealer
    around the moldings and a white latex sealer around the tub( the
    tile board I used was off white/grey with a pattern).  Above the
    moldings we just used a good wallpaper.
     End result was a new shower that looks very good(pat_on_the_back)
    and was very in-expensive.
              The only way to know if you will like it is to try it.
     I was skeptical at first also.   Now I'm glad I used it.
                 Good luck
                                   Jerry
    

	I thought I would reactivate this note since I was looking for
information on the same topic. The discussion does not seem to have gone on
enough for more than one or two opinions to be expressed.

	I am about to tile an upstairs bath. It is in a new house with 2x10
floor joists, 12' on center, covered with 3/4 inch plywood decking. 

	I have watched TOH and HOMETIME enough to have seen both (Wonderboard
vs. 2nd layer of plywood) methods used. But have never heard any pros/cons 
in the discussions of each. Anyone care to comment on the following questions?

	What are the pros/cons of using one method over the other?

	If I use plywood, what thickness should I use for the second layer?

	It appears that the next step in either case is to "mud" the seams and
	nail heads with floor leveling compound. True?

	Once the subfloor is set, what are the pros/cons of using a tile
	adhesive vs. a thin set mortar to lay the tile?

	Answers and opinions welcome.

							Mark

    When I tiled my bathroom over a year ago, I used a plywood subfloor,
    Tile City said I should have a thickness of 1.25" for the subfloor,
    so since the existing floor was 5/8",I added another layer of 5/8"
    plywood perpendicular to the 1st layer, used floor leveler on the
    seams and used a thin set mortar when laying the tiles, I haven't
    had any problems yet. 
    
    I would think the use of Wonderboard might be better as it won't
    rot if it gets wet and will probably give a more rigid base for
    tile work.
    
    
    
    Royce
    
    

>>>   I would think the use of Wonderboard might be better as it won't
>>>    rot if it gets wet and will probably give a more rigid base for
>>>    tile work.
    
	I wonder (no pun intended :-)) about that. Yes, it would be better as
far as rot goes if I ever had to worry about that. But it seems to be that 
a 5/8" plywood sheet would be more rigid than a 5/8" sheet of wonderboard. 
It is pretty easy to score and break a piece of Wonderboard.

	Anyone out there know any concrete (pun intended ;-) :-)) reasons for
using one over the other?

						Mark

    I have a problem with some of my tiles cracking in bathroom and
    kitchin.  Would it be advisable to take the tiles back up since I did
    not put another sheet of plywood on the floor before.  So right now, 
    it only has tiles on top of 3/4 in plywood with mud in between.  Or 
    should I just put a new floor (with tiles/linolium) on top.
    
    Thanks for the advise.

    what I am worrying about is destroying the sub-floor( or floor)
    since I did not put another layer of plywood between the tiles and the
    original plywood floor.  Is that a valid concern?

    I have ceramic tile in my bathrooms, diningroom, kitchen,
    and entryway.  All of it has colored grout.
    
    My first question is: how do you clean the grout?  I
    tried a grout cleaner, but that turned out to also
    be a bleach!  The grout I cleaned (luckily I started
    in a remote color) is now almost white.  All of the
    grout has dingy dirt in it.
    
    We have some chipped tile, and some spare tile, but
    no spare grout.  How do you remove a tile?  How do
    you match the grout color?
    
    Is regrouting easier than cleaning the grout?
    
    [Moderators: I found notes on cleaning tile and
    notes on ripping up a tile floor, but nothing on
    cleaning grout or removing *one* tile leaving
    floor intact]
    

    Last week I redid the grout in my bathroom.  I used a narrow
    screwdriver to scrape the old grout out between the tiles.  I didn't
    get all of it out however, which I found out later not to be a problem.
    I then bought some new grout and redid the entire tub area just
    as if I was doing new tile.  It came out great.
    
    I also had a few tiles that I wanted to remove.(And a few that I
    didn't)  I scraped as much grout out from around the tile as I could,
    then using a screwdriver I pried the tile out.  Becareful not to
    chip the tiles around the tile you want to remove.  I also broke
    a few tiles in the process.  However I had enough extra to replace
    those.
    
    BTW to replace to tiles I used a hot glue gun, which worked great!!
    
    There's probably a better way but this worked great for me.
    
    Good luck!

    Try a grout knife (2 or 3 bucks at tile city). It is a carbide
    empregnated whoo-b-doo that works wonders for cleaning (scraping away)
    grout stains.   -bd-

RE: .15 & .16

	I haven't gotten to a retiling job yet, but from the info I have 
read here and in the books says that you should have at least 1" of flooring
under your tiles. This could be a combination of wood and mud. I believe that
if I was faced with your problem. (I assume that many tiles are cracking) I
would just lay another layer of mud and tile over the exsisting tiles.

	If you go the other route... You can scape up the tiles without
destroying the plywood below. It is harder, and you would have to place at
least another 5/8" peice of plywood over the old.


	Just my $.02

			Bill

    Then either regrout with white grout, and clean it using the bleach
    stuff, or do what I finally did and put in a bathtub enclosure - real
    easy to clean!  Ugh, I hated scrubbing the grout with smelly chlorine
    stuff and an old toothbrush - talk about thankless jobs!  Ceramic tiles
    in a humid area may look nice when they are newly-installed, but what a
    maintenance nightmare!

    To revive an old topic, I seem to need to re-grout the tiles on the
    wall above my bathtub.  I really mean all the tiles, not the gap
    between the tub and the tile.
    
    I have not done this before.  Is this a project that a novice could
    handle?  Is it possible to hire people to do this, and if it is, is it
    worth it?  
    
    My home repair book gives about 2 sentences to re-grouting, which is
    not enough to make me feel really confident about starting a project
    like this.  Does anyone know of a book that describes what needs to be
    done in excruciating detail?
    
    I don't think any tiles are loose; the problem is just that the grout
    between the tiles is slowly crumbling.  In fact, I think previous
    owners must have encountered a similar problem and just topped off the
    gaps between tiles with new grout, without removing the existing grout. 
    Now the outer layer is starting to crumble off, revealing the
    underlying grout (or lack thereof) and exposing the original layer to
    the daily stresses of our bathing habits.
    
    Thanks
    Beryl Nelson

I've never done it, but watched it being done.  

It was easy (not complex) and difficult (a lot of work).

Step one, remove the existing grout.  See your local tile shop for a tool.

Step two, apply new grout.  See your local tile shop for grout and a little 
leaflet on how to.

Step three, wait 28 days.

Step four, paint a sealer over the grout.


If you decide to take several days to do steps one and two, and want to 
bathe in the meantime, tape some old shower curtains or sheets of plastic 
over the walls while showering.

    re .15
    
    You forgot step 5: install a bathtub enclosure over the darn tiles!
    
    I got real tired of redoing this job every few years, and of trying to
    keep the grout nice and white in between times.  The enclosure is MUCH
    eaiser to deal with!  Of course, I steal have to caulk between it and
    the tub, but that is actually eaiser to do than the grout, albeit
    messier, and also there is good deal less to caulk than there used to
    be to grout.  I don't mind the tiles in the rest of the bathroom; the
    look of them is nice, but I just didn't have time to keep redoing the
    tub area itself.
    
    /Charlotte

If your grout was sealed properly, you shouldn't have to redo it for a very 
long time.

    
    The right mortar and grout will also make an incredible difference.
    I've used, for my kitchen counter, a product called "keralastic" made by
    Mapei of Canada. This is a two part epoxy grout which resists staining,
    is waterproof and impervious to most household chemicals. We've had
    this on our kitchen couter for almost a year and I can attest to the
    fact that it resist staining. It's been great. I used both the
    Keralastic and another Mapei mortar product as the adhesive to hold
    the tiles down. I've been so pleased with these products that I plan on
    using the same for the shower enclosure when I get to that part of my
    bathroom remodeling project. 
    
    Mapei products are available from Corriveau Routhier in Nashua, N.H
    
    
    marc

    I do have many tiles to replace.  In a relatively big area also.
    My concern is really taking all the old tiles out(what a job it
    is going to be).  So I am thinking of hiring a contractor. 
    Does anyone has any idea how much does it cost to replace tiles using
    a contractor?  What is reasonable rate?  How much are we talking
    about for 100 SQ FT knowing that it will be different because of the
    material?   How about just labor?
    
    thanks
    

    my 1987 means book has a price per sq ft for 1.58 labor only thats for 
    2" x 2" tile 6" x 6" tile thin set is $2.47  
    
    min labor/equipment charge is $89
    
    
    hope this helps
    
    Paul

    thanks
    
    Is this cost just installation or cost of both taking up old tiles and
    installing new ones?
    
    Jimmy
    
    

    didn't you ask for installing?  :-)
    
    
    
    anyways if you want demo also it would be 
    
    labor    equipment   total   total including overhead & profit
    
    .32        .10         .42     .62
    
    
	Paul

    I started to cut tile this weekend with the score and snap
    method and have gotten totally frustrated. I have tried lightly
    scoring the tile, scoring with lots of pressure, snapping at the
    bottom, middle and top of the tile. Results...a mess. snapping
    at the top and bottom produce a break but is never along the
    score line with the exception of the first inch of an 8 inch tile.
    Snapping in the middle almost always results in a shatter.
    
    The score and snap is rented from Color tile and I will be going
    back there for an explanation but when he (the salesman) did it
    the results were impressive. So it must be me, or maybe he used
    a different piece of tile than what I have.
    
    So, how do you cut tile. Nothing fancy...just straight lines.
    
    Jim

    Do the tiles have ridges along the bottom?  One possibility is you're
    cutting "with" the ridges instead of across them, which will result in
    a poor edge.
    
    					Steve

    Yes the tiles have ridges on the bottom side. They run in both
    directions.

I have cut tiles using the tool the store lets out;  underside ridge directions
have never made a difference.  The keys are:

   * the blade wheel of the "scorer" MUST be sharp.

   * The break must be quick and solid - be not gentle.

   * The "score" MUST be complete  ALL  across  the  tile  -  especially on the
     bevels at the edges.  Wherever the  tile  is  NOT  scored  is a place with
     potential for a jagged edge.  The idea is to cut the surface of the glaze,
     NOT to dig a DEEP furrow. 
     
   * Make the score in ONE even pass.  Multiple  scores run the risk of causing
     a  jagged  break unless all runs are in exactly the same place  since  the
     break can/will follow ANY and ALL score line(s).
   
   * Plan on wrecking a few tiles until you get the hang of it.
   
Luck, 

Dave

    Well I went back to Color Tile tonight and they tried to cut the tile
    and the salesman couldn't do it either. The tile is a little heavier
    than normal.
    
    He gave me the "heavy duty" tile cutter and it worked like a champ.
    Nice even score and a clean break. The unit was approx 15 lbs and had 
    about an 18 inch handle.
    
    So I finished laying the tiles around the perimieter tonight.
    
    Thanks for the replies...Jim
    

    
    To bring back this subject..
    
    I have Ceramic Tile installed throughout my house in the kitchen,
    hall, bath's and laundry.  What would you say would be the best
    cleaner to use?
    
    I am looking for something that cleans, doesn't streak and shines.
    
    I've tried Mr Clean, Spic and Span, Lestol but still feel there
    is a better product or way.
    
    Cal.
    

    A friend told me that she cleans her ceramic tile floors with Tub and
    Tile cleaner. 
    
    Linda
    

Hi,
  I have unglazed tiles in my kitchen. (terra cotta?)  They are difficult to
keep clean.  They can be washed saturday, and be filthy looking on sunday.  I 
can't get them REALLY clean.  Does anybody have any suggestions on what to use
to get this floor super clean and how to keep it looking good?  Should I try to
seal the floor after I get it clean?

Thanks... Jeff.

I looked, and this has been lightly touched on in other notes, but no solution
has been described in detail.  I have tub wall which I need to fix.  I would like
to remove the tiles, fix the wall, and replace the original tiles.  But, I don't
know how to clean the back of the tiles so that they can be reused.

Are there any easy ways to do this?  I would like to avoid replacing the tiles,
both for cost and aesthetics.  I amk only looking at the wall where the shower
head and water faucets are installed.  So, there is not alot of tile (but
there is enough of it).

Ed..

    I've gone through all the tile/vinyl notes that were listed in note
    1111. Here are my problems.
    
    I have a 200 year old house with nothing square/plum or level. The
    kitchen floor drops about 2 inches from 1 corner to another. The floor
    joists happen to be tree trunks with a spread of about 3 - 4 feet.
    
    2 years ago my boyfriend and I started redoing my kitchen (by the way,
    we survived the ordeal). Last year (or was it almost 2 years ago?) we
    put down 1" laun plywood for the floor base (meanwhile we now have
    about 3 - 4 subfloors in the kitchen).
    
    There is paint splotches on the wood from putting a textured paint on
    the ceiling (the ceiling turned out great!). 
    There are gouges (minor) from moving appliances all over the place.
    
    For all you DIYer's out there, you can imagine what the plywood went
    through.
    
    Well, now's the time to put down the floor. I really (!!!) want ceramic
    tiles because
    	1) I found a really nice peach tile that accents the cherry
           cabinets
        2) I think the tiles would hold up better when moving appliances
           around (we would be using cardboard)
        3) we would put the tiles down ourself (the kitchen is 15' x 18')
    
    Of course, there are alot of problems with that decision. Could we
    prepare the plywood for the tiles (with all the stuff that got onto it)
    or will we have to go with a thin piece of plywood to give us a clean
    surface?
    
    Will we be able to make the floor sturdy enough by putting in more
    floor joists and crossbars? (Unfortunately, one part of the kitchen is
    over a crawl space and there's no way we can get additional support
    for that section.
    
    Are smaller tiles better for flexibility than larger ones? (The one I
    like is 12" x 12" but is the top rating for floor tiles)
    
    I've read about latex additives for grout and mastik (?spelling?) - do
    they really work and would this help solve our problem?
    
    As you can imagine, I REALLY want the tiles. But if I'm going to end up
    spending $1K for tiles and then they crack - guess who's going to be a
    bit upset.
    
    Plus, my boyfriend and my parents are pushing me towards vinyl because
    of the problem with the floor. My boyfriend doesn't mind putting down
    the tile, just if it were to crack. Unfortunately, none of us really
    know much about tile except that we did the kitchen countertop in tile 
    and it cracked in a spot where 2 piece of plywood met. (Not a good
    scene when I discovered this).
    
    What are all the things that we can do to improve the floor? Will it
    really work or am I kidding myself.
    
    Also, what about the plywood seams? We bought "patchit" (or whatever)
    from Color Tile to deal with seams, screw holes and other holes. What 
    will happen to the tiles over these seams?
    Thanks in advance.
    
    					Cindy 
    
    P.S. Another thing to remember, I have my washer and dryer in a kitchen
    closet. By building the closet, we seem to have made the floor more
    secure, but you can still feel a slight tremor when the washer goes
    into spin cycle (before adding the closet and plywood, things would
    fall off the kitchen table onto the floor)
    

    Use some kind of scraper to clean the adhesive off the back.  Its time 
    consuming, painful work, but it can be done.  I remember doing it a
    long time ago, but I don't remember what kind of scraper we used.  The
    tile was pretty tough; I don't think we damaged any out of an entire
    tub area. 
    
    -Mike
    

    The tough part will be removing the tiles intact.  I just tried doing
    the same thing, and am now in the process of re-doing the whole
    bathroom.  Tiles crack easily, and if they're securely glued to the
    wall, big chunks of wall come out easily too.
    
    However, assuming you can get them off, try a wire brush to clean the
    backs of the tiles.  Better yet is a wire wheel on a bench grinder. 
    I've had good luck doing that before.
    
    /Don

I am assuming that I will be able to get the tiles off the wall without too 
much trouble.  I have ;been having a water leak problem.  I had a plumber look
at it and he said the wall was in bad shape.  Since the fixtures are in pretty
bad shape (I am assuming they are original to the 20 year + old house), I
figured I would take down only as much as I need to (hopefully not more than
4 feet up).

This would allow me  access to the fixture, and I could then put new board behind
the tiles.  The area is small enough that I could get new tiles.  I just don't
know what they cost.  There are blue tiles there now.  Is there a good
contrasting color, assuming I can't get blue?

Also, the plumber said something about soaking the tiles in something to get
the old mastic off.  I think he said white vinegar.  Does anyone know if this
would work?

Keep the ideas coming.  I don't want to make a bad job worse, if I can avoid it.

Ed..

    What worked for me was to get a pot you will throw away when done. Put
    a couple of inches of water in the pot and bring to a boil. Put a
    couple of tiles into the water using tongs.
    Wait, I think, about 2 minutes and remove a tile. Scrape off adhesive
    with a putty knife. If the adhesive is not soft enough put in water
    longer. This did smell like old socks.
    
    Note:I lost about 30% of the tiles when taking them off the wall.

    Ed:
    
    You will DEFINITELY lose SOME tiles.
    
    Our bathroom tile was darker than robin's egg blue with a black trim
    I was faced with this exact problem about 15 years ago. We removed all
    the tiles in the bathtub enclosure. I sort of hoped to put them back
    up. We lost enough so that wasn't practical. We did put back up pretty
    easily SOME of the tiles we had taken down from the adjoining walls.
    Our solution was to put up quite different almost white with blue
    speckles tile separated from the rest with black trim.
    
    
    				herb

Well, I'll bite.  The first thing is, no one is going to be able to say "Just
do this, and the floor will be stable enough so that you know it won't crack."
You can do a lot to stabilize an old floor, but it is difficult if not 
impossible to say how much is enough.  Suffice to say that it's better to 
overbuild than underbuild.

Don't worry about a super-smooth surface for the tiles.  You don't want any 
obvious projections, but a few dips and gouges won't hurt - they'll fill in 
with the mastic.  You only need the super-smooth surface for linoleum where
every flaw is going to telegraph through the surface.

If your floor joists are really 3 feet on center, I don't imagine that you'll
be able to put on any amount of plywood (short of something utterly ridiculous
like 6") that will be stiff enough.  You're going to have to add joists.  If
you can't figure out a way to add joists to that crawl space area, then give it
up and go with something other than tile.  I'd probably add two joists between
the existing ones rather than just one.  Again, rather overbuild than 
underbuild.

In the issue of Fine Homebuilding that I just got this week there's a letter
recommending a way to stiffen an old floor.  First, screw a 2x4 across all the
joists in the center of the span, twisting any joists that have twisted over
the years so they are as square and evenly spaced as possible.  Then on the
bottom of each joist, screw a 2x4 (flat) to the bottom of the joist.  Since
the first 2x4 is across the middle of each joist, that means that the 2x4 on
the bottom of each joist is going to have to bend to fit over it, forming a
sort of a truss.  The author of the article said that it really stiffened his
floor amazingly.

So I guess what I'd do is install two extra joists in between the tree trunks
you have now, and then do this 2x4 trick also.  It sounds like your subfloor
is strong enough, what with the 1" plywood and your mention of having 2 or 3
other subfloors.

If this won't work out, remember that linoleum is not your only other option.
A lot of people in this file have put wood floors in their kitchen, and loved 
them.  A natural cherry wood floor would be another way to accent your cherry 
(presumably stained) cabinets.

Paul

I had to rebuild my shower about 4 years ago.  I could no longer 
get matching tile, but some of the rebuild included wall outside the shower. 
I had to remove sheetrock as well as mastic and grout (sheetrock as a shower
base was the reason for the failure of this shower as well as most others in
the neighborhood, btw).  Inside the shower I got a tile that was close for the
floor and wall.  I stripped 4 feet up the wall, replaced studs where needed,
put the not-quite-the-same tile inside the shower area (in retrospect, I wish
I put a row of contrasting tile between the 2 different tiles).

For the outside, I had to scrape 100 or so tiles.  The best tool I found was
a wallpaper scrapper - the type with the replaceable blade that is about 3 or 
4 inches wide.  I nailed some scrap wood at right angles to a work table, placed
the tile in the corner of the scrap wood to hold it, and scraped (turning the 
tile to get the corners).  This was by no means fun, but not that difficult.

The scraped tiles have been on the wall for 3-4 years now. No problem.

    I bought some solvent at Color Tile when I had to remove some floor 
    tiles and get the old adhesive and bits of broken tile off the 
    subfloor. I'm not sure what it was called but it was a "gel like"
    consistency and softened the adhesive so it could be scapped with a
    putty knife of paint scrapper.
    
    I've taken tile off off water damaged walls and since it usually
    doesn't go too bad.. Hard part is cleaning the tiles.
    
    Scrape out what grout you can before trying to pop the tiles off.
    
    	Dave

    Another thing to considor, is how well were the previous subfloors
    attached to one another. For plywood on subfloor, under tile. Nailing
    every 6 inches across the breath of the panel, and every 4 inches at
    the seams, w, 2 inch  ring shank flooring nails is the way to go.
    
    How sure can you be....
    
    bob
     

    My wife and I did just what you are trying to do.  Our house was
    built around 1830 and has a kitchen floor you could ski on!  Anyways,
    I straightened out the floor as best as possible.  I tried to eliminate
    any waves in the floor so the floor ended up having an even pitch
    from one side to the other.  I used floor levelor for this (lots
    of it!!).  There are 2-3 layers of plywood subflooring over the
    original subfloor.  The floor levelor is on top of all this.  After
    I was satisfied with the slope of the floor I put 1/4" luan plywood
    as the last layer.  I secured this with 2 1/2" drywall screws. 
    This helps tie all the subfloor layers together.  I would'nt use
    flooring nails.  I spaced the screws every 8-10 inches to start
    with, then I went back over the floor trying to find any spots where
    the flooring was loose.  I probably drove a 1000 screws into that
    floor!!!!!!  My drill was ready to be retired after that project.  
    
    At this point I started tiling the floor.  A few points about picking
    tile.  We picked a tile that was off-white and a cream colored grout.
    Mistake!!!!!!  This floor looks great when its clean but shows every
    spec of dirt and grime when dirty.  Think twice about using light
    colored tile and grout for a kitchen floor.
    
    The floor was finished about a year ago and has no cracks in the
    tile or grout.  The floor does not flex at all.  Our joists are
    spaced 24-30" on center.  We have a 21 month old son who tests the 
    floor daily by driving his cars across the table and letting them
    crash to the floor!!!...and he has'nt cracked one yet!!!
    
    I would put tile in a kitchen again.  The key is to make the subfloor
    as rigid as possible.
    
    Good luck.
    
    Paul

    The key to hiding dirt on a floor is not light vs. dark but pattern vs.
    solid color.  A small random pattern will hide dirt much better than a
    solid color.  The dirt adds to the random pattern and disappears.
    
    Opposing views welcome.

I haven't seen this discussed so...

I put down ceramic tile in my kitchen (over a cement slab).
Now, I've noticed that some of the tiles are cracking.  I replaced
one, and then I noticed two more had cracked.  I think I may have used
the wrong adhesive? I think it was a pre-mixed for "all" tiles floors.
Has anyone had this problem?  Is there a special adhesive for cement
vs. plywood?  My upstairs bathroom tile I put over plywood and haven't
had a problem in 2+ years with it.

    re: .59
    
    I believe that different tile adhesives are recommended based on 
    the size of the tile (i.e. over 4X4 requires thin-set mortar,
    under 4x4, you can use the "mastik" or pre-mixed adhesive).  Not
    sure of the specifics.

  I just put down a ceramic tile counter top (beige with white grout).
  I'm pretty pleased with the way it looks but I'm concerned with
  staining the grout.  I spilled a drop of coffee on the grout and
  it left a noticable stain.  I've put two coats of sealer on it and
  I even put a coat of polyurethane on top of that.  It still gets
  stained when you spill dark liquids on it.  I'd almost rather have
  my 1955 formica back.  At least you could clean it.
  Any ideas?

    I just finished my ceramic countertop last week and am waiting
    for 3 weeks (the instructions say) to put on silicone sealer.
    By the second day we had a couple of coffee stains and I don't
    even drink it...anyway I tried some bleach and the stains came
    out.  The grout is beige and the bleach did not change the color.
    I don't know if this will hurt the grout, but it takes out the
    stain.  You just need to rub a little in with your finger.
    
    Saul
    

    Or just let the bleach sit for a while, first.  Do this when the kids
    aren't around, of course...
    

>    By the second day we had a couple of coffee stains and I don't
>    even drink it.

>>    I just finished my ceramic countertop last week and am waiting
>>    for 3 weeks (the instructions say) to put on silicone sealer.

  Wow, 3 weeks?  I got all my stuff at ColorTile and the instructions
  say apply the sealer after 3 days.  Wonder if it's a misprint?  I
  also got a Time Life book on kitchens and it said the same (3 days).
  The bleach suggestion sounds good.
  Thanks

    I am about to tile my new bathroom floor.  The floor is 1 1/2" thick
    and solid as a rock.  The top layer is 1/4 solid core mohogany (luan
    maybe?). Anyway, someone told me that I ought to go ahead and place
    wonderboard down as additional security against water damage to the
    subfloor.  He said that with the wonderboard you won't have to worry if
    a bit of water gets underneath the tile.  With a wood subfloor, if you
    get water underneath the tile the wood will rot, soften and finally
    crack the tile.  How much truth is there to this.  Or are we talking
    about a extremely rare chance of this?

    Won't the tiles be set in a bed of cement?
    
    I've never done this, but it seems like overkill...
    
    Edd

    I renovated my bathroom about four years ago, using the peel-and-stick
    tiles. I put it over common plywood (should have used underlayment) and
    I haven't had any problems at all. During the past four years I have
    had a couple floods and the floor around the shower gets wet often. I
    too think the Wonderboard would be overkill.
    
    Mark 

    I think that you'll consider Wonderboard cheap the first time
    you have to replace a rotted floor that could have been prevented
    by using it.
    
    Some people are lucky and never experience rotted floors around
    toilets, etc.  When I redid our bathroom the plywood underneath
    the ceramic tiles around the toilet was delaminating, and the
    tiles just fell off.
    
    Would you rather spend an additional small amount of money now
    to do it in the most sturdy way, or would you like to take a chance
    on spending a lot more money later?

If you have children under the age of six, use the wonderboard.

I replaced the subflooring on one bathroom last year, and I'll be doing the
other bathroom this year.  Both had sheet flooring, but kid-generated tidal
waves have a way of getting everywhere.

Re: several back concerning tile over concrete slab.

Our house is on a slab that makes use of radiant heat.  I was wondering if
using tile would cut down on the amount of heat radiated?  Also, there is
currently linoleum on the floor.  Would that have to come up before laying
the tile or would it be possible to tile over it?

Thanks.

    RE-1	
    	
    	It is my opinion that the tile would hinder the efficiency
    of the  radiant floor, but very slightly. However, your lino is a
    better insulator than ceramic tile is. So I would say that by
    installing ceramic tile on the slab, you should find an increase in
    the efficiency of your floor heat.

    RE 64	
    
    	I think that the wonder board on the floor is way OVERKILL unless,
    as stated earlier, you have children and title waves. Your tile will be
    set in cement. Any large amount of water spilled will run to the edges 
    (like where the wall is) and run down the perimeter of the tile floor.
    This will still be a problem even with wonderboard. It is possible for
    the water to seep through the cement, and into the floor. If this
    happens, the water must have been sitting there for quite some time,
    and you would probably have other problems (mildew stains, musty smell,
    ect...). If done properly (sealed grout, seal the floor where it meets
    the toilet, tub, ect...) you should have no problem with water seepage,
    or rotting. The reason your floor is rotted at the toilet isn't 
    because of the tile floor, it's because the toilet "sweats" in the
    summer. This is what is deteriorating the floor, and this is a common
    problem for anyone with a toilet on a wood floor. If the installer
    sealed where the tile meets the toilet (with silicon caulking or sealed
    grout)  you wouldn't have the problems you do.


    	CB

	Hi,

	I've got a shower stall that needs a bit of work.  It has
	a one-piece floor unit ( porcelain, textured, with a center
	drain ).  The walls are tile.

	The problem is that the bottom edge of the tile does not butt 
	squarely against the top rim of the floor unit.  There is 
	a gap that varies from, say, 1/2" to 1" around the 3 sides 
	of the stall.

	When I first moved into the house, I sealed this gap with
	silicone sealant, but it doesn't look great, and tiny
	mildew spots are visible in the crevices of the silicone.

	What would be a proper compound to replace the silicone
	with ?  I'd prefer something that looks like grout, yet
	is utterly waterproof.

	Any suggestions ?

	Steve H

    If I had a 1" gap I'd seriously consider fixing the *real* problem.
    That's far too big to be attempting to treat with caulking compound...
    
    Edd

>    If I had a 1" gap I'd seriously consider fixing the *real* problem.
>    That's far too big to be attempting to treat with caulking compound...
>    
>    Edd

	Hi,

	Thanks for the reply.  I think it was just sloppy construction,
	not any lurking sinkage or anything...  I had occasion
	to be snooping around in the flooring beneath the shower
	and it doesn't appear to have broken, settled, etc.

	Steve H

>Any suggestions ?

Depends on how deep the space is without the sealant. I'd look at cutting
some wood pieces to act like long, skinny tiles. Paint them completely prior
to installation using the very best waterproof paint and re-seal using a
permanently pliable sealant. You could paint to match or contrast although
matching would probably hide the differing dimensions better.

Mickey.

    The previous reply sounds like an invitation for rot.  If you do use
    wood, at least use pressure treated wood.  I would use a product that
    is not affected by water and is naturally water resistent.  
    
    Concrete comes to mind.  Grout with a latex additive.  

>The previous reply sounds like an invitation for rot. 

Not if you protect it.

>at least use pressure treated wood.

I've always been under the impression that pressure treated wood was only
protected for some ___% of it's surface depth. The core does not get
impregnated with the preservitive. (Any one know the facts here?)  Anyway,
if you cut the wood to any extent, it becomes the same as using non-treated
wood.

>Concrete comes to mind.

For a one-inch wide hole?

>Grout with a latex additive.  

I wouldn't use grout between a stationary wall and a moving tub or shower
pan. It'll leak within the week.

>I've always been under the impression that pressure treated wood was only
>protected for some ___% of it's surface depth. The core does not get
>impregnated with the preservitive. (Any one know the facts here?)  Anyway,
>if you cut the wood to any extent, it becomes the same as using non-treated
>wood.
    
    Yes, you are correct that pressure treated lumber is treated to a
    certain degree.  This can be determined by looking at the tag on the
    wood for the CCA rating.  Occasionally the rating made be by ACA.
    
    Either way, look for a number like .25, .30, .35, .40  This indicates
    the amount of pressure treatment that has been applied to the lumber. 
    .40 is the most highly treated and is rated for ground contact for 30
    years.  The other numbers indicate acceptable use in weather but not
    necessarily for ground contact.

    For particularly hard wood or large diameter lumber, the lumber is
    first run thru a machine which pierces the lumber.  This allows the
    copper arsenic to further penetrate the lumber.
    
    If the noter with the problem used 5/4 x 6 bull-nosed decking, the wood
    would be treated all the way through and should have no problems with
    rot in the wood.
    
    For more detailed information about pressure treated lumber and the
    process of making it,  refer to Fine Homebuilding from about 3-4 issues
    ago.
    

    Any updates to this note? I am looking to make a hearth for my wood
    stove,and tile over wonderboard sounds nice.  I'm not familar with
    the "thin set morter". What is it?
    
    Thanks,
    Marc H.

        I used Durock (same as wonderboard) around my fireplace to support
        the tile there. It worked fine. I'd use it any place you were
        worried about heat or water. I'd definitely use it in place of the
        greenboard for shower or bathtub areas. As it was, the contractor
        put greenboard in our showers. Only the seat in the master shower
        and the deck around the tub are Durock.

    Re: 2152.6
    
    What did you use to hold it to the floor?
    
    Marc H.

        I just nailed (or screwed) it without predrilling. It chips a bit
        around the hole, but doesn't crack. I'm sure the galvanized nails
        are recommended besause wonderboard / durock is usually in
        moisture prone areas, and you don't want your nails to rust. If
        screwing, I'd suggest galvanized decking screws, rather than
        drywall screws.

    it's not a moist environment.
    
    We recently installed a wood stove in our basement. For the wall behind
    the stove we used 8x8 quarry tile installed with acylic-based mortar on
    Durock/Wonderboard. The Durock was installed using drywall screws, with
    no pre-drilling needed. We didn't tape the seams, since the whole area
    was being covered with mortar. 
    
    My $.02
    
    Freddie

A friend has purchased a home that has an beautiful old fashioned bathroom.
It has a cast iron tub surrounded with tile.  She is planning on having the tub
reglazed, and was wondering about the tile.  The glaze shows the signs of many
years of abrasive cleansers.  Is there a way to restore the glaze on ceramic 
wall tile?  

    re-.1 The glaze on tile is fired on at >1000 degrees there would be no
    way other than to remove, glaze, fire, reapply. It is possible
    something like Gel-coat might improve the apperance outside of that
    I think it'd cheaper to replace the tile. Gee it took 15 years but that 
    ceramics class in HS finally paid off 8^)
    
    -j
    BTW-I suppose you could call a ceramic shop to see if there are
    any other options but I doubt it.

If you go to a ceramics shop (you know, one of those places where they have all
the molded item waiting for you to paint) you can probably find a gloss finish
(kind of like varnish) which is brushed or sprayed over painted objects to give
them a high gloss.  This might be suitable, but I don't know anyone that has
tried it.

Tom

    My parents just had their bathroom tiled & now want to do the kitchen
    and other bathroom.  The guy who does the tiling (a friend of the
    family), told them that the tile could go down over the linoleum that
    is in the kitchen.  My father likes that idea (no work for him!), but
    my brother thinks the tiles may crack if they just tile over the
    existing floor.  The house is about 60 years old & has settled quite a
    bit (floors have a slope to them).
    
    Would it be risky to tile over the linoleum?  The linoleum has been on
    the floor for 15-20 years and is starting to wear out, but it hasn't 
    cracked or peeled - just looks very old!
    
    Thanks,
    
    - Cindy

    Re .68
    
    If the floor is shaky, you will probably have to put down an overlay
    of 3/8 to 1/2 inch plywood over the linoleum anyway, which will
    eliminate the tile-on-linoleum issue.  Otherwise, if the floor is
    solid, there should be no problem putting tile over linoleum.  I'd
    be more concerned with preventing the flexing of the floor, or else
    you will definitely have a grout loosening problem; the tiles
    themselves aren't likely to crack.
    
    PBM
    

    Thanks for the info - I'll tell them. 
    
    - Cindy

    A couple of replies back someone mentioned epoxy grout.  Anyone else
    have experience with this?  Tile City is recommending I use it in a
    tub enclosure for water resistant purposes.  I read the instruction
    sheet and it looks like a royal pain in the a** to apply.  Is it worth
    it?  Is the use of it as bad as the instructions make it sound?
    
    George

    
    Well, this is an old note, but it looks like the best place
    to put this.
    
    I want to put down a new bathroom floor that is currently a mosaic
    tile.  I was thinking about putting down that marbleized tile.
    I have two concerns however.  I was told that it is not as durable
    because it chips easily.  It *definitely* has to be durable, as
    there are children and pets  and things dropped on the floor all
    the time.  The tiles in there now have held up great, but there's
    so much grout that it NEVER looks clean, no matter what I do, and
    I thought that the marbleized stuff would look a lot better becuase
    the tiles abut one another very closely.  
    Anyone know if there is a particular brand or a type that is very 
    durable?  It must be crack and scratch resistant.
    
    2nd concern:  I've only seen the big squares of this stuff (like
    a square foot or so) and was told that it makes it more prone to
    cracking and be more difficult to fit together unless you have
    a perfectly level floor (not forgiving enough).  Should this be
    a big concern?  has anyone heard of smaller sized tile?
    I was planning on putting the new tiles over the existing ones, since
    they are in perfect shape.
    
    thanks!
    

  I'm interested in covering my kitchen, sunroom and half bath floors. My 
  cabinets are white raised panel and the countertop is a black/white/grey 
  granite looking formica. The kitchen is ~10'w x 20'l, the sunroom ~10' x 10'
  and the bath ~43"w x 7'l. I'd like to do the kitchen in a black and white
  theme. I also think that since the kitchen is a galley which flows into
  the sunroom that I'll do the kitchen and the sunroom in the same way.
  I believe that I can do the bathroom floor the same as the others or
  differently.

  Because the estimates that I'm getting for linoleum and tile are in the
  $1600 range for everything, I'm thinking about getting 1 ft. solid linoleum
  tiles which will be alternate between black and white (checkerboard). If I
  can get $1/ft tiles and lay them myself, it'll cost me ~$300 which is a
  significant savings. I know that I'll like this look alot since my previous 
  floor was like that. The problem, though, is that between my previous 
  experience and reading the latest consumer reports on tile and linoleum, I 
  know that solid black and white tiles get beatup and dirty easily.

  Does anyone out there have tiles as I've described which are holding up
  well? Which kind? How much did they cost? Any suggestions on where to find
  them?

  Also, would it be helpful to put a coating on them when they're laid down
  (e.g. wax, polyurethane, etc...). I'd really like to have a high gloss
  look.

				thanks alot,
				jp

                     <<< Note 4798.0 by SMAUG::VONHALLE >>>
                  -< Black and White Vinyl Tiles: Questions >-

>  $1600 range for everything, I'm thinking about getting 1 ft. solid linoleum
>  tiles which will be alternate between black and white (checkerboard). If I

>  experience and reading the latest consumer reports on tile and linoleum, I 
>  know that solid black and white tiles get beatup and dirty easily.

>  Does anyone out there have tiles as I've described which are holding up
>  well? Which kind? How much did they cost? Any suggestions on where to find
>  them?

>  Also, would it be helpful to put a coating on them when they're laid down
>  (e.g. wax, polyurethane, etc...). I'd really like to have a high gloss
>  look.

Have you read the many notes on flooring in this file??? see note 1111.1 
for the key to which reply has the full list of all vinyl tiles. I didn't 
writelock this because of a very specific questions, but it seems to be 
close to many others.

If you want a high gloss, talk to your flooring sales person, they can tell 
you what to use and what not.....I doubt poly would work for anything 
unless the floor is wood/painted, a typical early American trick that was 
elegant for the times when done nicely.


    	Vic

I have a tile ceiling, one of those ugly old fashion ones.
I don't want to tear it down.  It has lots of cracks all over it.
Has anyone ever skim coated one with joint compound?  
Rather than tear it down or repaint it, I thought I might try to
smooth it out with joint compound, but wondered whether the compound
would adhere to the tiles or just fall with any moisture?
This is in my bathroom.
Any suggestions??
Carol

    The joint compound will not stay firmly attached. Cover with sheetrock
    and then skim coat.
    
    Marc H.

	This NotesFile has a great directory in note 1111.  It is much
	quicker and easier to use than running a DIR/TITLE.

    Hi
    
    	I have a problem w/ the tile in the bathtub,... but it's on the
    side opposite the drain....ie/ the ceiling.  This past fall, we put in
    a skylight in the bathroom.  The skylight is where the exhaust fan used
    to be so I need to put in another exhaust fan.  I've purchased a NUTONE
    fan that can go in the bathtub(if "GFIed"). 
    
    	The ceiling, where I want to put the fan, is constructed of tile
    and concrete(wonderboard??).  It's an old(40yrs) bathroom.  The
    concrete is pretty thick at points(4"-5").
    
    	Question is: how should I go about making a hole big enough to put
    this new fan unit(probably 1'd), without damaging all the tile etc?
    (currently there is a hole where a light would go ~4"d).
    
    	Thank you in advance for all your suggestions!
    
    Regards,
    		John

I've read through this string and can't seem to find a good answer.

My brother in law tiled his kitchen and they used a white grout that
ended up all porous (gets dirty) and rough looking.  The colored grout
they used in their bathroom came out much smoother... looks completely
different.

Anyhow, now he wants to do something about it.  He is actually considering
trashing the whole floor (tiles and all) and starting from scratch but I
think that might be overkill.  One of the other notes mentioned a grout
removal tool.  Is this really effective?  Do the tiles come up as well?
Does it do a clean job?  Would it take forever to do?  Could they just put 
down 1/8" of new, colored grout over the old grout and not remove it?
The room is about 200 sq feet... how long would this take?  

I mentioned using some sort of dye to color the grout but their main
problem is the texture (which seems to be conducive to staining), not
the color although they want to change the color too.

They might consider a professional if the cost is right, but if the cost
is equivalent to starting from scratch, they would do it themselves.

karen

    We just had ceramic tile installed on our kitchen floor. The installer 
    said that he uses a silicone type of sealer and it works great. He's
    coming back in 3 months to seal it (3 mos. for grout to cure). It
    produces a pretty good shine, but most of all protects the grout from
    stains. 
     Also he said to clean it with plain water and maybe add a little dish
    wahing soap. 
    /bd
    

Hi All,

	I have three questions I'd like to try and have answered
before I commence laying down ceramic tile in a half bath bathroom.

	1) How can one tell if the existing flooring is rigid enough
	   to accept the ceramic tiles without cracking in the future?

	2) How far out into the doorway should the tile extend? There is
	   going to be carpeting just outside the door.

	3) I started pulling up the old sheet tile and the vinyl portion
           of the tile pulls up rather easily. However, the cardboard
	   backing remains glued to the floor. I tried scraping it up
           but the glue is very hard and it was slow going. Any ideas
           on how to loosen the glue up?

	Thanks readers for any advice you can provide.

	John M.

re.                       <<< Note 4952.0 by MPGS::MORTON >>>
>                    -< Ceramic Tile Installation Questions >-


>	1) How can one tell if the existing flooring is rigid enough
>	   to accept the ceramic tiles without cracking in the future?

    You cannot be sure if it is rigid enough, you can only be sure if it is
    NOT rigid enough.  Obviously, if the floor creaks or has cracks in the
    flooring now, you have a problem, but who knows if you cannot see
    anything wrong.  So, the safest bet is to more permanently secure the
    floor to the joists using flush set ring nails, or, preferrably,
    countersunk flooring screws.
    
>	2) How far out into the doorway should the tile extend? There is
>	   going to be carpeting just outside the door.

    Best bet is to install a marble threshold in the doorway.  They are
    very inexpensive, look great and protect the edges of the tiles.  When
    you install it, you cut away the "stop" part of the door jamb molding
    with a back saw so that the threshold will fit flush against the jamb.
    So make sure you measure appropriately.  The folks at the tile store
    can offer suggestions.
    
>	3) I started pulling up the old sheet tile and the vinyl portion
>           of the tile pulls up rather easily. However, the cardboard
>	   backing remains glued to the floor. I tried scraping it up
>           but the glue is very hard and it was slow going. Any ideas
>           on how to loosen the glue up?

    You dont.  Actually, you wasted your time pulling up the linoleum (but
    it probably felt good).  You need as_close_to_perfectly_flat subfloor
    for the ceramic tile as possible.  One procedure is to install 1/4" of
    luan plywood (again, flush set ring nails or counter-sunk flooring
    screws)over the existing floor AFTER you screw down the existing floor
    to the joists.  Another procedure is using a type of mesh material and
    grout mixture.  again, the folks at the tile store can offer the best
    suggestions.
    
    Now you have a flat and sturdy base for the tiles.
    
    Although I have put in tile and linoleum  floors, I have come to
    believe that the labor is the smallest expense of the job and that if I
    can afford the necessary materials to do the job right, I can afford to
    pay someone to do it.  However, make sure if you do that, you see
    actual floors this person has installed since you will be living with
    his/her craftmanship FOR EVER.
    
    
    As always, For What It's Worth....
    
    Dave
    

Pulling up old sheet tile is not only unnecessary, it may be undesirable.  
Some of the older stuff has asbestos in the backing.  If it's on the floor, 
and especially if it's under a layer of luan, plywood, tile, etc., it's no 
problem, but if it's disturbed, it's dangerous, and may be illegal to dispose 
of.

Clay

    
    re: .1,.2
    
    	Thanks for the replies. The reason I started pulling up the old
    sheet linoleum is because it was starting to peel at the corners. 
    
    	I guess I could have glued the corners down somehow. Oh well.
    
    	The house is only nine years old. Was tile containing asbestos
    still being used that recently?
    
    Thanks,
    John M.

>        The house is only nine years old. Was tile containing asbestos
>    still being used that recently?

I'm pretty sure the answer is no.  But it MAY be difficult to dispose of.

Clay

    One thing to mention when you put the 1/4 luan down is that
    you CAN NOT put to many screws (or ring nails) in. The more the 
    better. You don't want any movement to cause the grout or tile
    work loose and/or crack. I put screws about every 4 inches in my floor,
    esp. on the seams. I went right over the old flooring, it has asbestos
    in it.....
    
    /bd 

Even better, use construction adhesive (and screws/nails.)


		Steve

When we added the 2nd floor, the ceramic tile (Color Tile) salesperson
suggested strongly that we should have at least 1-1/2" base under the
tile, otherwise it would have a tendency to crack or best case, loosen
the grout.

He said that with the 3/4 T&G plywood plus the DuRock screwed at 6" intervals
we'd be OK.  I hope so, can't change things now...


At any rate, the DuRock is a cement board in 3X5 3X6 or 3X8 sizes. It's
a pain to cut, although you *can* cut irregular lines with a drywall
saw with a lot of elbow grease.  After you install this stuff, you go
over the seams with a fiberglass mesh tape and thin-set mortar.

One more thing... be sure, whatever base you use, to apply a primer to the
surface before laying down the glue or mortar. If you don't, the vehicle in
the glue or mortar (petroleum product / water) will dry too fast making for 
poor adhesion.

FWIW, I had some trepidation about using thin set mortar, as I was used to
laying tile into a petroleum-based adhesive.  Well, after this job (two
full bathrooms and a tile foyer), I'll not use that stuff again.  The mortar
dosen't smell, it's easier to apply, works just as well, if  not better (IMHO).

While I'm on the subject...

	I've two 1/2 bags (25lb) each of color tile black and buckskin
sanded grout free to whoever wants them.  In Merrimack, NH, send me E-mail
if interested.


Chris

    Inch and a quarter total thickness is acceptable.  That's 1/2 inch
    underlayment over 3/4 inch tongue and groove subflooring.  When you
    install the 1/2 inch, use 1 3/4  or 2 inch screws to penetrate to the 
    joists, and 1 inch screws everywhere else, 6 inches on center.  This 
    will get rid of any squeeks in the floor, as well.  
    
    Carl  

    
    I'm getting contradicting opinions on the use of 1/4" lauan plywood
    as a subfloor for ceramic tile. Several people, both in this conference
    and outside, have recommended lauan as a subfloor material for ceramic
    tile. However, when I was over at HQ last night, a self-proclaimed 
    flooring expert was adamant in his belief that lauan was not an
    acceptable subfloor material for ceramic tile. He said the only 
    acceptable subfloor materials were either plywood or durock. He told
    me he had had to rip up two ceramic-tiled floors that used lauan as the
    subfloor material just in the last year.
    
    But there was another HQ employee who has given me good advice in the past
    and he told me lauan would work just fine. The area I'm tiling is only
    about 3' x 3'. So, will I regret using the 1\4" lauan for my subfloor
    for 8" ceramic tiles?
    
    Thanks,
    John

re .9

The reasons for using Luan are:

	* 1/4 thick, yet stable.  Normal 1/4" building plywood does not remain
	  flat.  It tends to pucker in large areas.

	* smooth and consistently flat over large areas

	* resists damage from water better than 'x' grade plywood

The purpose of the plywood is NOT structural, but to provide a flat, even base
upon which to put your finish floor.  If Luan is applied over poor subsurface 
(insufficient joist size, not nailing/screwing at least subfloor to joists, 
etc), then the Luan will need to be pulled up.  However, the solution is to fix
the subfloor, not use a different finish grade subfloor. 

Remember, the whole exercise is to get a stable, flat floor so that the 
non-flexible ceramic tiles will not crack under weight.  I tiled a bathroom,
about 8x10 floor, with ceramic tile.  The floor was in great condition so I 
just tiled over the linoleum.  The only surface preparation I did was to score
the linoleum to help the goop adhere.  Twenty years later, the ONLY problems 
have been with grout loosening up around a fiberglas (therefore, flexible) tub.

With a 3x3 floor in question, we are having the HOME_WORK equivalent of a 
debate about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.  If it were me,
and the floor was creaky, I would screw_nail_every_8" the existing floor to the
joists, lay down Luan and screw_nail_every_8"_inbetween_the_previous_8" the 
Luan to the old floor and tile. If the floor flexes after that, you have 
SERIOUS structural problems. 

Sounds like a fun afternoon's job.  Make sure the wife and kids (if any) leave 
you alone so you wont be embarassed if/when you make a goof.  You'll be a 
hero when they get home.  :-)

As Always, FWIW

Dave

Have you determined how stable your floor is? 
You need to check how much (if any) bounce is in your floor.
What material and thickness is necessary is directly dependent on this.

      One way I saw Walter and Tony from the TNN show check before putting
down a marble floor, was for the two of them to stand about 8 feet apart.
One person then raises up on their toes and then quickly drops their heels.
If the other person feels movement, then the floor isn't stiff enough.
Yeh it's not scientific, but it's real easy.

In their case they added a beam in the middle of the joist in addition to
the plywood they added. I forget what thickness plywood they used.

     If you don't have any noticeable "bounce" or weak spots in your floor 
now and all you need is a uniform surface, then 1/4" luan may be fine. If you
have bounce then you might need better support of the joists or use something 
thicker than 1/4" for the floor, like 5/8" PDS plywood.

     The previous note on screwing the floor every 8" is mandatory whatever 
thickness of plywood you do. Also make sure nothing creaks before you put 
the tile down. I ended up in a couple places screwing through both layer and 
into the joist because the original base of 1/2"CDX wasn't secure to the joist.

     Dave

    If you want to minimize the added thickness, you can also get 1/8"
    luan.  Given that the floor is already stable, this is just creating a
    perfectly smooth surface to tile to.....
    
    I haven't used the 1/8" luan yet, but was planning on it,... I've been
    told that it'd work just fine.
    
    Any comments?
    
    -John

    I regrouted my bathroom floor.  There is a small hand tool you can get
    to remove the grout from between the tiles.  It is not a fun job, but
    the end result was very satisfying.  Basically, you run the tool
    between the tiles and 'saw' out the grout.  It takes a lot of elbow
    grease.  Our tiles are square which made it a lot easier than if they
    had had curve in them.  The bathroom floor area is about 30 square feet
    and it took me a little over 2 hours to do.
    
    Rhonda

   Not wanting to write a new topic, this seemed like the closest topic for
this hint.


   I had a problem with a ceramic tile counter top that had chipped in a few
odd places around the kitchen (dropped pots etc.)  The tile was a sort of bone
color (an off-white).  I had some extra tiles, but didn't want to go through
the expense of pulling and replacing tiles and then having to re-grout etc. 

   I found an auto touch-up paint made by Krylon that exactly matched the
color of my tile.  The paint was available in a "pen" much like a Magic-Marker.
It worked great, the chips that were showing the red-clay tile suddenly
disappeared.  You have to be actually looking for where the tiles are chipped 
in order to notice them.

   The color selection of automobile touch-up paint is pretty wide.  Maybe
this will work for you too...

Al

    
	If you were to cover the floor area below with tile or Vermont
    	slate, where would you begin the center tiles? I've tried to
    	give coordinates along the side and bottom; please pardon the
    	rough drawing.
    	
    	John
    
    
    
				24 ft. wide
				x = cabinet area
	A	-------------------------------------------
		|			  xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx|
	B	|			  x		 x|
		|			  x		 x|
	C	|			  x		 x|
		|					  |
	D	|					  |
		|					  |
	E	|	 ---------------------------------|
		|	|
	F	|	|					24 ft long
		|	|
	G	|	|
		|	|
	H	|	|
		|  4 ft	|
	I	|	----------------------------------|
		|					  |  <- 3.5 ft wide
	J	|-----------------------------------------|      hallway
		1    2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9   10   11

	You want to have full tiles basically centered, especially in the
	hallways. So, I'd start it at about I2 - the intersection of the
	centers of the 4' and 3.5' hallways.

	Given that you'll be dealing with a 3.5' width in one hall, you will
	want to carefully choose your flooring material for the best fit in
	that confined area. If you get big pieces of slate then you might
	end up with only fragments along the walls.

	Roy

    
    	Would you start in the same place if you were using the slates
    	that were various rectangular shapes, such as the 10 sq. ft
    	cartons sold at Grossmans? Several different colors, set down
    	to form a pattern.
    

	To me the most important thing is to get full pieces of slate in the
	moddle of the hall. That's where you'll get the most wear, and you
	won't want a seam right there. It will also look better. You never
	want to start laying out tiling or slate at the edge - in this case
	it's just a matter of which middle to start at.

	Roy

When I go to the lumber yard to get plywood for my new bathroom floor tile
project underlayment, what "grade" or type of plywood should I ask for?

I figure I need 3/8" stuff, but I'm not familiar with the various types of
plywood. What's best under bathroom floor tile?

Thanks,

Brian

    "Underlayment grade".  Make sure that the subfloor beneath it is 
    ridgid.
    
    				Steve

RE. -1

I just spoke to the guy at my tile store and he recommended using 1/2-inch
"exterior grade" plywood. What's the diff between that and underlayment grade?
(Water resistance? Knot-freenees?)

He also said an alternative is 1/4" "wonder board."

Brian

    I was told, at HD by a tiler, to use CDX.  Can't remember exactly what
    all the letters designate, but one of them is exterior, another, I
    believe means that it can take an adhesive.
    
    Let's hear how it goes... I haven't gotten to this project yet.
    
    -John

    
      Plywood that is not underlayment grade can (And usually does) have
    knot *holes* in the inner layers. This can cause the plywood to sag
    when weight is put on it at that spot. If you have tile there, it can
    cause the grout to crack or worse, even the tile to come loose. You
    should *always* use underlayment grade plywood for any type of floor.
    
    				Kenny

re .74:

The C and D in CDX indicate the quality of each face.

    re: .74, .76,
    
    .74 is correct, C and D are the face grades, and the X means it's OK to
    use as an exterior plywood.  D grade plywood doesn't usually have
    water-proof glue, so can't be used on the exterior.  The X indicates
    that waterproof glue was used.
    
    Paul

    
    Anyone with experience installing tub surrounds.... 
    	How do I prepare a ceramic tile wall over which I'm installing a
    tub surround. The instructions with the surround say to "sand the tiles
    lightly". I've tried sanding the tiles - barely made a scratch! What to
    do?
    	Thanks,
    	Dave 

    	My guess was that the sanding was to rough up the surface so the
    adhesive would stick. Maybe you could try putting a small dab of the 
    adhesive somewhere you sanded as a test case to see how well it sticks.
    
    	Ray

    
      You might want to go and pick  up some adhesive for tile/carpet
      (gallon) and really smear it..Just did one and the kit came with
       2 tubes of liquid type nail..The plumber trashed it and wanted
       the adhesive..(new walls) not over tile though..it was 7.95
       at spags..
    
       /David

    I experimented with several types of sanders, and the only set-up which
    worked on tile was a sanding attachment for my electric drill, plus
    very course grade sandpaper. The flexible rubber disk on the drill
    attachment allowes you to reach the low points on the tile's surface.
    The edges on these bath tiles are slightly raised, which combinded
    with the hardness of the glazed surface, made it impossible to abrade
    much of the tile with an ordinary flat-surfaced sander.
    
    Dave
    	  

    
    This is an old note, but it seems to cover what I'm looking for.
    
     I have some ceramic tile left over from when our house was built.
    some of the tiles have the glue/mud used to hold them to the flooring.
    I have a few broken tiles to replace and would like to use these tiles.
    But I haven't tried to remove the addhesive from the back of the tile.
    
      The last note here mentioned soaking them. I thought maybe a heat
    gun, or a small torch to  melt the stuff off. Any ideas ?
    
    Thx, Ed R.

    Is the glue a rubbery flexible one, or a rigid epoxy or cement based
    one?
    
    Are the tiles glazed or unglazed; terracotta, biscuit or porcelain?
    
    regards,
    Michael Watts.

    oops, forgot - how big are the tiles, how thick are they, how thick is
    the glue and is it in patches or more or less cover the back of the
    tiles. Is there any glue on the edges?
    
    regards,
    Michael Watts.

    Most tile glues use an alcohol solvent.  Try removing the glue with
    that.  Once I did this on bathroom tiles by boiling them in water to
    soften the glue.  After scraping the glue off, I used alcohol to
    clean it up.
    
    Bill
    

    oops, forgot - how big are the tiles, how thick are they, how thick is
    the glue and is it in patches or more or less cover the back of the
    tiles. Is there any glue on the edges?

>>> the tiles are about 1/2" thick 9"x9" tiles, the glue mostly covers the
   back of the tiles, and there's no glue on the edges


    Is the glue a rubbery flexible one, or a rigid epoxy or cement based
    one?
   
>>> Cement based from what I can tell
 
    Are the tiles glazed or unglazed; terracotta, biscuit or porcelain?

>>> Glazed, I'll guess they're porcelin, when you break one in half
    they're brown, and look like pottery material

    
    regards,
    Michael Watts.
    

    If they're brown inside, it sounds like your tiles might be terracotta.
    Biscuit and porcelain are usually white or buff, or porcelain is the
    same colour all the way through with the surface polished rather than
    glazed.
    
    For cement based adhesives, usually chipping the stuff off is the best
    method. That's what the antique tile place here recommends. Your tiles
    would sound to be strong enough to cater for this. A good method is a
    wire brush in an angle grinder.
    
    For more delicate tiles with cement, they recommend dipping the cement
    in hydrochloric acid (sometimes referred to as muriatic), trying not to
    get the whole tile wet. Depending on the glaze and porosity of the tile, 
    this can affect the glaze. One needs to rinse the tiles well in copius 
    amounts of water.
    
    regards,
    Michael Watts.
                                  

    
    	Could someone help clarify my confusion please?
    
    	We're getting ready to tile the upstairs bath.  I have a 3/4"
    	plywood subfloor.  I plan to put down another 1/2" of plywood to
    	get the recommended 1.25".  I am thinking of gluing and screwing
    	with 1.25" or 1 5/8" sheetrock screws.  How many screws and where?
    	Every so many inches?  Must they all go into the joists?  Or,
    	something like every 6" and not be concerned if they are between 
    	the joists?
    
    	thanks, Glenn...
    

    
      The glue will go a long way toward making the floor rigid. The rule
    of thumb I've heard about spacing is 6" square. I'd hit all the joists
    possible as well. (Do the joists first and then fill in the gaps) One
    thing you don't want is to skimp on this step. Movement of the floor
    can (and will) wreck the best tile job.
    
    					Kenny

I would NOT use sheetrock screws.  When I was doing the floors in our last 
home I was intent on using them but was warned that due to the mechanics 
involved each screw head would compress the surrounding wood as the head was 
countersunk and result in a "bump" or ridge of wood around each screw head.

By contrast subfloor nails are countersunk with a hammer-whack that leaves a 
nice circular depression easily filled with leveling compound and sanded 
smooth.  Subfloor nails have ridged (textured) shafts to give good grip, are
by far cheaper (so you won't mind using LOTS of them...), and are in fact
easier to install.

Get five or ten pounds of 1.75" subfloor nails.......... I bought mine with 
the agreement that I could return the unused nails by weight.  A good dry
"you mix" leveling compound (I used Armstrong), Finish or Framing hammer,  
one o' those joint compound spatulas to spread the compound over each and 
every nail, a durable electric sanded, and a good supply of 80 grit.

Nail 4" around the edge of each sheet and 6" staggered (Diamond pattern) 
throughout.  countersink with-a-whack all nails and fill with leveling 
compound.  Level any low spots and misaligned seams.  STAGGER THE SEAMS between 
the two courses of sub-floor.

Sand the ENTIRE FLOOR, vacuum TWICE and WET MOP.  Let dry 100% and lay your
finished floor...............

BUY KNEE PADS!  You'll be spending HOURS on your knees....... I did over
500 sq. ft. without pads and was sore FOR WEEKS!

- jw

RE: .20

    I'm in the screw don't nail camp...after having laid 3 floors and a counter.

    I always seem to have problems with nails pulling out; even the ring shank
    nails that are supposed to prevent this situation (it just takes longer).
    I suppose the adhesive coated nails used in a pneumatic nail gun wouldn't
    have any problems staying put :-}.

    I have never found the ridge around the screw to be a problem.  Since the
    surface has to be coated with some form of adhesive (concrete or a glue type
    mastic), the size of the ridge is not any real problem.  One way to eliminate
    it entirely would be to sink the screw head slightly below the wood surface
    and then come around with a hammer to bop the ridge down.

    One thing to consider when using screws: if you have a large area, consider
    buying a screw gun.  I used to use a bit chucked in a drill, and the difference
    is like night and day.  Not only is it a lot faster, but I can set the depth
    of penetration.  The major down side is the cost.  A good screw gun (I bought
    a Milwaukee) will cost about 4 times a typical "heavy-duty" homeowner type
    drill.  (Since I do a lot of woodworking, this was easier for me to justify.)

    As for knee pads, they are well worth the price.  Although I don't have a pair
    because I tend to squat rather than kneel.  (At 6'4" ~ 200 lbs this is a bit
    "interesting", bit it does help stretch out the bod' a bit :-) :-)

- Mark

    
    Ah, religious discussions...
    
    Re .20:
    
    I'm skeptical about the "'bump' or ridge of wood around each screw
    head". I understand the theory, but have never experienced it in
    practice. A properly sunk screwhead always dimples nicely for me and is
    amenable to filling; the only exception is an occasional small splinter
    of surface grain that rises as the head sinks, and that is quickly
    removed by a dry knife while filling.
    
    Nails are cheaper, but I find there's a *lot* more labor involved, and
    my right forearm tends to be the gating factor. With screws, I can go as
    long as my back holds out, which is considerably longer. There's also a
    lot to be said for easily backing out my mistakes.
    
    Screw guns may be cost and time effective for the professional or
    serious hobbyist, but I get along just as well with a medium power VSR
    drill. In fact, I perfer the drill --  the gun seems to be heavier, and
    the high-pitched whine that annoying BRRRAATTTTTT when the clutch
    disengages get to me after a while.
    

    
      I use screws all the time for a wide range of woodworking, including
    carpentry around the house. I've never noticed any sort of problem with
    the wood raising around the screwhead. And yes, a screwgun will go a
    long way toward making the job even faster and easier than it would
    already be (As compared to nailing - I've done plenty of both on
    floors)
    
    					Kenny

	re: last few....  sorry for the length....

================================================================================
Note 1819.20           Securing subfloor for tile surface               20 of 23
BUSY::JWHITTEMORE "Carp Perdiem"                     30 lines  12-NOV-1993 08:12
                          -< Nail - Don't Screw..... >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>I would NOT use sheetrock screws.  When I was doing the floors in our last 
>home I was intent on using them but was warned that due to the mechanics 
>involved each screw head would compress the surrounding wood as the head was 
>countersunk and result in a "bump" or ridge of wood around each screw head.

	I did the entire upstairs (28' x 36') screwing and gluing.  No bumps.

>By contrast subfloor nails are countersunk with a hammer-whack that leaves a 
>nice circular depression easily filled with leveling compound and sanded 
>smooth.  Subfloor nails have ridged (textured) shafts to give good grip, are
>by far cheaper (so you won't mind using LOTS of them...), and are in fact
>easier to install.

	Trying to save $ when the house was built, I got the pleasure of
	nailing down the luan in the kitchen.  Ring nails.  Now, I don't
	know if my builder bought cheap ones, or bad ones, whatever, but
	the linoleum in my kitchen now exhibits MANY rising nailheads, and
	the number is growing.  House is 2 years old.

>Get five or ten pounds of 1.75" subfloor nails.......... I bought mine with 
>the agreement that I could return the unused nails by weight.  A good dry
>"you mix" leveling compound (I used Armstrong), Finish or Framing hammer,  
>one o' those joint compound spatulas to spread the compound over each and 
>every nail, a durable electric sanded, and a good supply of 80 grit.

	One incentive for screws (a thin one at best) is that I have a
	partial box of 1.25" and one of 1 5/8" sheetrock screws left from
	rocking the walls.  Also, I messed up my subfloor by leaving 
	excessive gaps between the sheets of tongue and groove.  We decided
	on carpet, and fearing the carpet sinking into the grooves, spent
	too many painful hours filling the grooves with leveling compound,
	so, have all the experience and tools for that.  Way too much fun...

>Nail 4" around the edge of each sheet and 6" staggered (Diamond pattern) 
>throughout.  countersink with-a-whack all nails and fill with leveling 
>compound.  Level any low spots and misaligned seams.  STAGGER THE SEAMS between 
>the two courses of sub-floor.

>Sand the ENTIRE FLOOR, vacuum TWICE and WET MOP.  Let dry 100% and lay your
>finished floor...............

	Great advice.  Thanks, will do....

>BUY KNEE PADS!  You'll be spending HOURS on your knees....... I did over
>500 sq. ft. without pads and was sore FOR WEEKS!

	Awww, come on,,,, pain builds character  8*))))  The bath is rough
	size 10' x 10'.  Subtract out the tub, and closets, and it's at the
	noise level compared to the rest of the job.....

- jw
================================================================================
Note 1819.21           Securing subfloor for tile surface               21 of 23
SEESAW::PILANT "L. Mark Pilant, VMS Engineering"     27 lines  12-NOV-1993 09:34
                         -< Screw- Don't nail.....:-) >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: .20

>    I'm in the screw don't nail camp...after having laid 3 floors and a counter.

>    I always seem to have problems with nails pulling out; even the ring shank
>    nails that are supposed to prevent this situation (it just takes longer).
>    I suppose the adhesive coated nails used in a pneumatic nail gun wouldn't
>    have any problems staying put :-}.

	See above about my kitchen....

>    I have never found the ridge around the screw to be a problem.  Since the
>    surface has to be coated with some form of adhesive (concrete or a glue type
>    mastic), the size of the ridge is not any real problem.  One way to eliminate
>    it entirely would be to sink the screw head slightly below the wood surface
>    and then come around with a hammer to bop the ridge down.

	Or hit it with the belt sander w/ 50 or 80 grit...

>    One thing to consider when using screws: if you have a large area, consider
>    buying a screw gun.  I used to use a bit chucked in a drill, and the difference
>    is like night and day.  Not only is it a lot faster, but I can set the depth
>    of penetration.  The major down side is the cost.  A good screw gun (I bought
>    a Milwaukee) will cost about 4 times a typical "heavy-duty" homeowner type
>    drill.  (Since I do a lot of woodworking, this was easier for me to justify.)

	Yup, have my neighbors old gun.  He does sheetrock for a living.
	Before that though, I did the entire upstairs floor with a non
	reversible 3/8" 20 year old single speed drill.....  Had it smoking
	a couple of times....  You also develop a 'feel' after snapping a
	few screw heads off....

>    As for knee pads, they are well worth the price.  Although I don't have a pair
>    because I tend to squat rather than kneel.  (At 6'4" ~ 200 lbs this is a bit
>    "interesting", bit it does help stretch out the bod' a bit :-) :-)

	See above....

- Mark
================================================================================
Note 1819.22           Securing subfloor for tile surface               22 of 23
WLDBIL::KILGORE "WLDBIL(tm)"                         23 lines  12-NOV-1993 10:06
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    Ah, religious discussions...
    
    Re .20:
    
>    I'm skeptical about the "'bump' or ridge of wood around each screw
>    head". I understand the theory, but have never experienced it in
>    practice. A properly sunk screwhead always dimples nicely for me and is
>    amenable to filling; the only exception is an occasional small splinter
>    of surface grain that rises as the head sinks, and that is quickly
>    removed by a dry knife while filling.

	Ah yes, the splinters.  Yup, had them.  Knife or sander takes care
	of them.  Only had a few, and mostly where I got too close to the
	edge of the sheet of plywood....
    
>    Nails are cheaper, but I find there's a *lot* more labor involved, and
>    my right forearm tends to be the gating factor. With screws, I can go as
>    long as my back holds out, which is considerably longer. There's also a
>    lot to be said for easily backing out my mistakes.
			       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
	Yup, been there, done that..... 8*)
    
>    Screw guns may be cost and time effective for the professional or
>    serious hobbyist, but I get along just as well with a medium power VSR
>    drill. In fact, I perfer the drill --  the gun seems to be heavier, and
>    the high-pitched whine that annoying BRRRAATTTTTT when the clutch
>    disengages get to me after a while.
		^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

	I just turn up the stereo....
		    
	thanks for the advice all.....

	Glen(n)

>    Ah, religious discussions...
    
Ah yes , Screwing vs. Nailing... I'm not going to get into that here, 
I already have my own opinion and like it just fine thank you.

A comment about ring nails... everyone seems to swear by them as the 
best thing since the hammer and the nail and while I understand the 
"proposed" concept behind them ( the rings grip the wood and hold 
better), in reality I find the exact opposite.

Every place I've seen them used and especially when you remove them,
it looks like the rings CUT the wood on the way in and provide less
holding power. Regular nails will split the wood and seem to hold
tighter, longer. I've pulled out ringed nail (especially those that
have been there for awhile) and found the come out very easily (too
easily) and are coated with saw dust when they do. 


But then, I don't worry about those issues anymore... I use SCREWS!

Charly

    
    	8*)  I love this file.  There is so much information here that
    	when I go looking for an answer, the many answers tend to generate
    	that much more confusion....  8*) 8*)
    
    	So, .71 asked my question, but that brings up another question.
    
    	For the tile in my bath, it sounds like I want underlayment grade
    	to eliminate voids in the inner layers.  Then, I probably want
    	CDX to help eliminate any water problems.  This is for the master
    	bath, so no kids and their tidal waves, therefore, I won't use
    	wonderboard.
    
    	Now, the question.  Is there available an underlayment grade CDX?
    	Or, does someone have a better suggestion?
    
    	thanks, Glen(n)  (not only is this file informative, I find it very
    			  entertaining.... thx  8*))))))
    

    
    Glen, you need some more info on plywood grading.
    
      Underlayment grade means that it has no voids in inside layers which
    could sag under constant foot traffic.
    
     In other grading, such as CDX, the first letter is the GRADE of the
    outer layer of one side of the sheet. The second letter is the grade
    for the outer layer of the other side of the sheet. The X stands for
    exterior glue. Please note that exterior glue is water *resistant*,
    there are no guarantees for long term exposure. (This is in contrast
    with MARINE grade plywood which uses a different glue which is supposed
    to be able to withstand constant moisture.)
    
      So all you really need to find out about your underlayment is if the
    glue is water resistant. (My guess is that like other plywoods these
    days, it will be 'normal' to find underlayment plywood glued with
    water resistant glue) Beware of particle board underlayments, they are
    more often glued up with NON water resistant glues.
    
    				Kenny

    
    	-1
    
    	Oops, sorry Ken, in an effort to unconfuse my confusion, I confused
    	you....... 8*))))
    
    	I currently have 3/4" tongue and groove subfloor.  That will stay.
    	I need to add 1/2" of 'underlay' on top of that in order to get
    	the recommended 1.25" of total subfloor thickness for tile.  My
    	questions are based on what should I buy tomorrow when I go to get
    	the 1/2" of 'stuff' needed to do the second layer.....
    
    	thanks, Glen(n).......
    

    
      All you need is underlayment grade plywood that was glued using
    exterior or 'water resistant' glue.
    
    					Kenny

			

		
	       If you are looking for ceramic or marble tile, accent
	tiles, designer tiles, marble thresholds, brass trim moulding,
	TEC tile adhesives, latex additives, grouts, wet saw rental, tools
	for the do it yourself tile installers, LOW prices, and friendly
	service. I would HIGHLY recommend you contact Joe & Maria Baldassarre


			      EUROPEAN TILE DESIGNS
				967 South Street
			       Fitchburg Ma. 01420
				  (508)345-1946


	Wholesale and/or retail tile suppliers and installers with 12 years
	experience. All brand name, first quality stock from companies such
	as DAHL, FLORIDA, KERASTONE etc. as well as many imports. Large
	showroom with hundreds of tile samples to choose from.
	

	I am just completing an installation of about 250 sq/ft of ceramic
	tile that I purchased from EUROPEAN TILE DESIGNS. Tile price was 
	70 cents below competitors for same tile. Tile and materials were
	delivered promptly, overnight in my case, (your mileage may vary
	depending on manufacturers stock.) Fast, courteous service and
	best prices added up to real savings for me. Joe is a DIGITAL
	employee who has recently received the TFSO package and is now
	doing his tile business full time. 

	In my opinion, he's doing it up right !

	Regards,
	Dennis	

    ? on tiling size and subfloor.
    
    We are thinking of installing floor tile in the upstairs bathroom.
    
    The subfloor sits on 2 x 8 (I think) joists 16" o.c.
    Above that is 1 x 8 planking, above that is 3/4" plywood.
    
    What thickness plywood should I use over the existing 3/4" plywood
    to ensure a stable surface?
    
    Also, would it be more wise to purchase smaller tiles such as 8 x 8"
    as opposed to say 13 x 13".  The logic here being that a smaller tile
    is less likely to crack than a larger piece?
    
    Thanks, Mark

	Mark,

	Prior to recently installing approx 250 sq. ft. of ceramic tile in 
	my home I was asking the same questions as you are. Here's what I
	learned...
	
	I consulted with three tile installation 'experts' and they all 
	agreed that the subfloor should be a minimum of 1.25" thick.

	Some floors may require more underlayment to create a SOLID surface
	to build on. The key here is to minimize or ideally eliminate 'ALL'
	sagging or bounce to the subfloor. This is best tested by having
	a very 'LARGE' friend walk around on the floor while you watch for
	sagging underfoot. It sounds as though you already have 1.5" to
    	1.75" of subfloor. If there is no floor movement you may already have
    	an adequate subfloor.
	
	Personally I chose to go with a cement board underlayment as opposed
	to plywood. Actual name of the stuff was Tile Backer Board. This
	board is designed for tile applications, is heavy (concrete), solid 
	and impervious to water. Cost per sheet was comparable to 3/4" plywood.
	
	I used a 7/8" thick cement board on top of the existing	3/4" plywood.
	I secured the cement board to the subfloor using corrosion resistant
	screws (I saw them at HQ) and a drywall screw gun to drive the screw
	heads a little below the surface of the cement board.

	Regarding tile size, I asked the same question also and was told the
	way to prevent tile cracking is proper subfloor preparation not tile
	size selection. In other words a 13" tile on a solid and level sub-
	floor is at no greater risk of cracking due to surface pressure than
	a similar quality 4" tile on the same solid and level floor. 

	Of course if you accidentally drop a 3 lb. hammer on any size tile 
	it is most likely going to break ;')

	But then again, how many people store their hammers in the bathroom ?

	Regards,
	Dennis
	

>>	But then again, how many people store their hammers in the bathroom ?

What's wrong with that? :-)

    
    Ha!  ever have to pull a ..Hang nail???? :)
    
    

	Could come in handy when you need to 'TOE-NAIL' something...

    I discussed the situation with the installer.  He also felt as though
    the tile size was not a concern as long as the sub-flooring was setup
    properly.  He also mentioned using a "thin set" under the tile as
    opposed to the standard cement.  I think I got that name right.
    
    He said he would lay down a 3/8" luan over the existing sub-floor
    (3/4" plywood, over 1 x 8" planking).  
    
    I did walk all over the room this morning and it was sturdy everywhere
    except one area which was creeking a lot.  There did not seem to be
    that much play in the floor but a very noticeable creek.  Would this
    area be a potential problem?  
    
    It is about a 2 foot area.  What can one do about this?
    
    I have not had a chance to discuss this with the installer.  The
    installer is a plumber/builder who is installing a whirlpool tub,
    plus the wall and ceiling tile.
    
    Thanks, Mark
    

A creek in the floor?  I've heard of moisture problems in bathrooms before,
but this tops them all!

				Steve

		
	I had some areas with squeaks or creeks or whatever you call
	those nasty noises a floor sometimes makes. 
	
	What worked VERY well for me was reinforcing those squeaky areas with 
	the floor fastener of your choice (my preference was 1.25" screws).

	I installed a screw in the floor every 3 inches in the problem area
	until the squeak was gone. This will firm up the sub floor by 
	compressing the layers and eliminating the unwanted movement and 
	subsequent squeaking. 
	
	Secure the luaun over the screw infested floor and you have a smooth
	and squeak free subfloor to apply your thin set and tiles to.
        
    	Dennis

> Secure the luaun .....

	Why is luaun needed if ceramic tile is being installed over it
	anyways.  Why not some CDX (much less expensive than luaun)
	and patch yourself?

    RE: .34
    
    Luan has a smooth , unbroken surface. CDX doesn't. ACX would be OK,
    but more expensive.
    
    Marc H.

> Luan has a smooth , unbroken surface. CDX doesn't. ACX would be OK,
> but more expensive.

	How smooth does it have to be if you are laying a solid service
	over it, given that the mortor I would imagine acts as a leveling
	compound to begin with?

	FWIW, at least two workers at home depot suggested I could use
	CDX and fill the voids myself and that would be an acceptable
	underlayment for vinyl.  As it is, I used particle board (sealed
	with a sealer/primer and poly-u) so I have no actual experience
	using CDX.

    re: .36
    
    CDX with surface voids filled is not equivalent to "underlayment"
    grade.  My understanding is that underlayment has no interior voids
    as well.  The solid surface of CDX can conceal a void in the next
    lamination, so sufficiently localized pressure can crush the exterior
    surface.  If used under vinyl flooring, spike heels can be the
    source of "sufficiently localized pressure" to do the deed, making a 
    deep dent.  Or so I've heard.

    RE: .37
    
    Correct.
    
    Marc H.

	My understanding is that luaun is a popular choice for another
	reason as well.

	Aside from being a smooth solid underlayment luaun is favored in
	this type application because it is only 1/4" thick. This is a
	major factor when you consider the impact of raising the overall
	height of a floor. Especially when applying ceramic tile as opposed
	to vinyls.

	Potentially, depending on your selection of materials for sub flooring
	and tile, you could conceivably raise your floor height .5" to 1.5".

	Prior to my installing a ceramic tile floor here's some things 
	I've learned (some the hard way) to check. Maybe this will be helpful
	to another 'DIY' installer. Some are no big deal but still worth 
	considering.

	Perhaps others could add to this list of potential pitfalls based 
	upon your experience...


  o	If your refrigerator has cabinets ABOVE it. 
	Will you have enough clearance between the refrigerator top
	and the base of the overhanging cabinets after the new floor
	is in?

  o	Will you be able to maintain a useable toe-kick area under 
 	kitchen cabinets and or bathroom vanities?

  o	Will you have enough room under baseboard heaters to reinstall
	the end caps after the floor has been installed or will you 
	need to elevate the baseboard housings to compensate?

  o	How will you deal with the baseboards in the area to be tiled?
	Remove and replace them, cut the baseboards to fit the tile 
	under, or make a grout seam along all baseboards?

  o	Will you be able to remove your dishwasher from it's under
	cabinet position if necessary?
	
  o	How will the new floor height affect the stove/oven height?
	(assuming you tiled under the stove/oven)
	Will the stove/oven top be above the cabinet height?
	If so, does that present a problem for you?

  o	Will the finished floor height exceed the height of any 
	exterior door thresholds? 

  o	How will the new floor height affect adjoining rooms?
	    Will you require marble thresholds at every doorway?
	    Will you have to ramp your carpet areas to meet the new
	    floor height? 
	    Will you have to modify hardwood floors to join smoothly with 
	    the newly tiled floor?

  o	In a bathroom, will the new floor height require you to 
	install an extension flange under the toilet?
	
  o	Will it be necessary to modify your water supply line to the
	toilet?
		
  o     If tiling UNDER a bathroom vanity are you going to have to modify
	your hot and cold water supply lines to the sink and your waste line 
	(drain) from the sink?

  o    Will it be necessary to trim the bottom of doors in the newly tiled
       area?

	.
	.
	.
	.
	.


	Dennis

  
	

    Re: .39
    
    Sounds like you had some hard lessons learned!
    
    Marc H.

	Thankfully I didn't have to go through the school of hard
	knocks to learn about these potential 'gotchas' first hand. 

	Although I was caught off guard by that toilet water supply line... 
	and just after the creek in my floor dried up too !!

	Regards,
	Dennis

    I'm in the process of preparing the old bathroom floor for new tile. 
    I've pulled all the old tile, and need to replace some of the subfloor.
    Problem is, the old plywood was 5/8" and all I can find is 1/2" or
    3/4".  I also want to use wonderboard, which is slightly less than
    1/2". Question is... is there anything available that I can install
    below the wonderboard that is 3/16" thick?  That's what I need to bring
    the two floors even, but the only thing I could think of was 1/4"
    plywood,... and unfortunatly, it is a true 1/4".
    
    Anything sold in, maybe, 1/16" increments?
    
    thanks
    
    -John

    
    
    Paneling????????
    
    Change the threshold to match the hight of the flooring.....
    
    1.5cnts worth!
    

    Make surwe that you use plywood and not luan. Thin set will not bond
    properly to luan
    
    
    						/Dave
    

    Paneling... hmmm,... that could just do it! thanks.
    
    btw, Dave, I'll be putting the wonderboard on top of 'the material to
    make up the difference between 5/8" and 1/2" wonderboard'.  However,
    this is only in a couple of fairly small places(1'x4' and 2'x2.5'). I'm
    going to tile over the existing floor, in the rest of the room, since 
    the rest of it is in good shape.  The previous tile was also set in thin 
    set, but I was able to get the surface fairly smooth(using an ice 
    chopper... boy has that come in handy this year!)
    
    Any problems w/ doing it this way? ie/over plywood that had previously
    been tiled?  Will thinset bond to dryed thinset?
    
    Again, thanks for your suggestions.
    
    -John

    
I would like to know if any one has had any experience with Color Tile?
Where you satisified with the service/quality?  Did you have them do the
installation?  

    Thanks,
    
    Karen

 


    

I can only comment on quality/price. I bought all of my ceramic and quarry
tile from them when I built my house 11 years ago. I did the installation
myself.

The prices were the best I could find locally. The quality of the materials
seemed to be as good as I could have found anywhere else.

-Jack

    I bought my bathroom floor from them. Quality, selection and price were
    good, but the salesman didn't know squat.
    
    Edd

    	We had some carpet installed by them. For the price of the carpet
    installed with the pad, it's hard to see why someone would go the
    remnants route.
    
    	Since the rooms were large, they involved putting in seams. In one
    of the rooms, the installer pulled and reinstalled a seam because he
    was not happy with how it came out. It appeared from this that the
    installer was fairly quality conscious.
    
    	Ray

Do they contract out installations?  If so (or even if not so) wouldn't there
be a lot of variability from location to location?

    
    Is there a place I can go to order tile that matches a sample
    that I bring in?  I have tile from a 40 year old bathroom that
    doesn't match anything that I've seen in tile stores.  It is
    a weird hue of grey.  Can't afford to completely retile the
    bathroom walls so I'd like to just replace the broken tiles.
    
    thanks

    
    I'm sure you don't want to hear this but...
    
    I was told by a tile shop, when trying to locate a match for a 35 year
    old tile, the tile manufacturers change their colors\textures every
    so many years so you're forced to buy a mis-match or all new tile.
    I can't vouch for the truth of this statement but let's just say I
    looked long and hard for a match and never found it! Of course I didn't
    have access to HOME_WORK ;^) at the time. And that's not to say custom
    made or possibly used (salvage?) tiles aren't available. 
    
    Happy Hunting,
    
    Charlie 
    

	Matching tile is very difficult. I'd think that your only hope is to
	canvas all the stores you can find to look for as close a match as
	possible.

	And, if you find a few candidates that are very close, ask for
	samples, so that you can take them home and see how they look in the
	middle of a bunch of the existing tile. Comparing just one sample
	that you bring to a store could be deceiving.

	Roy

    
    Another solution to this problem is to find a close a match as you
    can and then replace some of the old tile with the new tile making
    a pattern that looks intentional. (e.g. if you have a broken tile 
    midway up the wall, replace the whole row with the slightly mismatched
    tile to make it look like an intentional stripe.)
    
    								- Mac

    
    aarrggh... ok, so if I remove the tub, is it possible to
    just ruin one row of tile around the tub so that I can replace
    it with a trim tile that is in other places?

    
    I'm not sure I understand... is the tub being replaced by a new tub?

    
    Yes, the tub is going to be replaced, so I figure the tiles around
    it will probably break when the tub is removed.  Plus, there is
    a wall section near the floor (where some shelves are, luckily)
    that has a few tiles missing.  

    I saw an AD on TV for Color Tile, they are having a 3 day %50 of sale.
    What store would be close to Groton Ma.?
    
    Thanks
    
    Brian

I think I saw an ad for a tile-matching service in a recent issue of the
magazine "Old House Journal".  Find one of these magazines (I got it from our
town library) and hunt around through the ads.  I think I remember it being
among all the classified-type ads near the back.

-Chris

I don't know the closest store to Groton, but there is a store at Searstown in
Leominster.

Elaine

	There's also the Color Tile (I assume it's part of the same chain?)
	in [Tax-Free :-)] Nashua, NH on DW Highway South.

    There's one in Nashua on the Daniel Webster highway. Past Jordan's
    furniture but not as far as FunWorld. It's on the same side as
    Jordan's.

    re: .7 & .8 Notes collision!

    I don't know where you are located but there is a place in Framingham,
    Mass. Colonial Floors Inc. (508)875-5521.  They have a lot of old tile
    upstairs, I was there last year looking to match a couple pieces.  The
    guy that runs the place could use a personality transplant but they
    have lots of old stuff up stairs, the first floor is all new stuff.  
    
    Good luck,
    
    Paul 

re: .-1

>    guy that runs the place could use a personality transplant but they

Doncha just love being a captive audience to these types?
:^)
-Jack

I need a reliable person to replace the wallboard and tile in a small
bathroom.

Does anyone out there have a recommendation for someone in the Arlington,
Lexington, Belmont area?  I need someone who will return calls, show up,
and do good-quality work (a lot to ask, these days!).

Thanks,

Kathe

Returning calls seems to be an effort nowadays, doesn't it?  Check out the
"contractor" area starting with note 2000.

				Steve

    We had similar work done to our tub tiling several years ago.  We used
    Foley Tile in Maynard.  They seemed reliable, cost seemed reasonable, 
    and it's certainly held up well.  They tore out existing tile, replaced
    the wallboard underneath with some kind of cemented wall board and 
    retiled with new tile & grout the entire tub area.
    
    							Gerry

    
     Yet another re-grouting question with a twist. I just finished
    grouting my new tile floor. After a day of curing I noticed that there
    were several placed where the grout was uneven. Can I just go over the
    grout line again with fresh grout? Will the new layer of grout bond
    properly? How about the color?
    
    Raj
    

Hi,

We're building a new 6' x 9' bathroom out of the ashes of an old
kitchen/pantry.  Behind the scenes is R19 insulation and a 4-mil plastic vapor
barrier.  We have installed durock around the tub (up to the ceiling)
and moisture resistant greenboard everywhere else.  We are getting prepared for
tiling, and have some preparation questions:

1) There are some gaps between the pieces of durock.  The worst gap is 1/4"
(working with a significantly un-plumb outside wall and a significantly plumb
stud wall).  What, if anything, should we put in these gaps?

2) The durock is installed sitting on the top edge  of the tiling edge of the
tub.  That is, the tub edge is against a stud wall, and about 3/16" thick.  The
durock is resting on top of the tiling edge, and of course  is 1/2" thick.  We
couldn't install the durock over the tiling edge because the tub is installed
flush with the stud wall and the durock would have had to have flared out over
the edge of the tub.

        |stud    |   |
	|	 |   | < bottom edge of durock
	|        |___|
	|        +-+
	|	 | |   < tiling edge of tub
	|	 | +__________

When we tile, the tile will come down over the tiling edge of the tub.  What do
we put between the back edge of the tile and the tiling edge?  Caulk?  What
kind?  I've heard that grout won't stick to silicone based caulks.

3. The durock is screwed into the studs every 12" or so.  Should we put in more
screws?

4. The greenboard also has some gaps between the sheets.  What, if anything
needs to be put in these gaps before we tile?

5. I have heard that we'll be using mortar on the durock, and mastic on the
greenboard, to hold the tile up.  At what point do I make the transition
between the two - at a tile edge or where the backing material changes (while I
haven't measured yet, it will be our luck that the material change will not
line up with a tile line)

Many thanks,
Dana

Hi Dana,

The 1/4 gap isn't really significant enough to worry about.  Just fill the 
gap will plenty of mastic.  you'll need a minimum of 2 coats and i'd 
recommend 3 for that large of a seam.  The mastic will fill the gap but 
does shrink a bit so what looks smooth once you apply will show a 
depression once it dries (make sure you let it dry at least overnight 
before you reapply.)  I supposed you could use mortar but mastic is easy 
(no mixing) and can be used on both the duroc and the greenboard.  don't 
worry about the seam between the duroc and the greenboard...just us mastic 
to smooth the transition.  Once you smoothed the whole tiling surface with 
mastic and it is completely dry, then apply the mastic to set your tiles in 
it.  Again, no need for a mortar mix.

As for the edge butt, don't worry about that either, that almost always 
happens and again you can fill the space with mastic.  Once you tile down 
to the tub face, you'll just grout and caulk like normal.  Not a drop of 
water will penetrate if you take your time and make sure all cracks are 
filled and smooth and DRY before doing each step.

I'd go every 6" on the screws in the Duroc.  Make sure every depression is 
filled smooth with mastic.

Call me if you need more specifics...actually we could catch up.  If you 
remember we worked together about 6 years ago in the old ASD group.  Good 
luck.

-Greg
 

    I'm in the process of tiling over a concrete slab with 12"x12"
    ceramics. I've got it all layed out ready for thinset. I thought
    the floor was "level enough" until I noticed a few tiles have
    a slight wobble.
    	Does the floor have to be perfectly level or does the thinset
    provide a sufficient bed over concrete?  How expensive is that
    self leveling stuff?
    
    R u s s
    

>    <<< Note 412.82 by WASHDC::PAGANO "Russ Pagano|DoD Workstation Sales" >>>
>                         -< Tile wobble over concrete >-
>
>    I'm in the process of tiling over a concrete slab with 12"x12"
>    ceramics. I've got it all layed out ready for thinset. I thought
>    the floor was "level enough" until I noticed a few tiles have
>    a slight wobble.
>    	Does the floor have to be perfectly level or does the thinset
>    provide a sufficient bed over concrete?  How expensive is that
>    self leveling stuff?
        


    I was faced with the exact same situation, however, this was a three
    seasons porch so I wasn't too concerned with it being perfectly level.
    
    The floor does not have to be perfectly level to tile over, depends on
    your level of meticulousness. I also went over cement with 12X12 frost
    proof ceramic using thin set. Be sure to use a 3/8 inch notch trowel and
    you should be ok. Leveling the floor first can be alot of work. Only
    someone scrutinizing my floor would notice it wasn't level in some places.

    One other thought would be to go with 8x8 tiles to minimize the differences
    of course that's incrementally more work. 

    Helpful hint: Next time instead of laying out all the tiles, make yourself
                  a story board. A piece of would perhaps an inch wide 4-5 feet
		  long depending on size tile. Mark the board where each tile
		  starts including spacers, do 4-5 tiles along ther board, and
		  use the board to layout how the tiles should go too minimize
		  slugs instead of laying them all down and trying different
		  configurations.

    Good luck, and get knee pads!

    As per .83's suggestion, using the recommended 3/8" notch trowel
    took up any slack while still ensuring complete tile/adhesive
    coverage.
    
    Re: story board- sounds like a good idea but my problem was 
    getting the whole layout as square as possible with each wall
    (of course adjoining walls were not square). I couldn't figure out
    how to do this without laying (almost) everything out then 
    shifting the entire layout for best fit.
    
    Knee pads for sure! I must say I'm very satisfied with the completed
    job but I can understand why installers wanted $4/sq ft!
    
    With HOME_WORK and the right tools we can do anything!
    

    I am planneing to remove 3 rows of ceramic tiles that goes horizontally
    across the middle of a wall. How can I do that without destroying the
    wall behind the tile ? I don't care if I have break the tiles, but don't
    want to ruien the wall. Is that a good way to do that ? Any special
    tools ?
    
    Thanks
    
    Ken
    
    

Gee, with all the notes on tile, I think someone has answered this before.  The
keyword is TILE&SLATE

Elaine

    Re.1 I did look thru the many topics with the TILE&SLATE keyword before
    entering my base note. Only 2 notes, 3847 and 207 scratch the subject
    "remove wall tile" but didn't really discuss about how to remove the
    tile WITHOUT also pulling the wall down. Most of them talked about how
    to remove the tile without breaking the tile, not the wall. What I want
    is to just remove the tiles, and leave the wall intact as much as
    possible. Is this possible ?

Use a grout saw  to remove the grout between the tiles and then with care
attack the tiles to be removed with a cold chisel and hammer.

Start at a corner only try to remove small chunks. 

If you're lucky, when you have a sizable area removed you can use a "wonder bar"
to price off the rest ( use a piece of wood under the bar to avoid digging 
into the wall).

You can then scrape the glue which remains in the wall off with the bar and
do what you will. 

Worked for me this weekend to replace a cracked tile

What's the wall made of?  What's the tile set with -- mud or thinset?

I HAVE WHITE AND PURPLE TILE WITH GREEN SPECKS, SHOULD I CREATE A 
DIFFERENT NOTE?

> I HAVE WHITE AND PURPLE TILE WITH GREEN SPECKS, SHOULD I CREATE A 

	    Are those `avocado' green specks?  8^)

					Tim

                                               <<< Note 5407.6 by STRATA::CASSIDY >>>
                                                      -< Psychodelic, man!!! >-

> I HAVE WHITE AND PURPLE TILE WITH GREEN SPECKS, SHOULD I CREATE A 

	    Are those `avocado' green specks?  8^)

					Tim


I don't know, maybe it's mold.

Should I start a new note because my mold is on purple tiles and not just 
white tiles?  It really looks bad on the purple tiles.  It's sorta neat 
looking on the white ones, though.

I know, I'll start a new note because I don't want to do anything with the 
white tiles, just the purple ones.  That's the trick.

Oh, I'm so excited.  I get to write a new note.

Oh, but you know nobody reads old notes so you have to create a new one so
that people will see it.  Either that, or reply to the old one and then
write a second new topic asking people to read the other note....

				Steve

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                              Home_work
Created:  5-NOV-1991 19:08                                   5408 topics                                  Updated: 25-AUG-1994 11:30
                                    -< Index, see 1111/contractors, 2000/ Wanted&selling, 1666 >-
 Topic  Author               Date         Repl  Title
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
         CSC32::S_LEDOUX     10-MAR-1989    2.128  I've seen 'em at various Color Tiles
        AKOLD1::KUMOREK       6-NOV-1989    4.18  How long does a tile chimney lining last?
    34  SMILEY::BIBEAULT      6-JAN-1986    38  Ceramic Tile on walls
        PARITY::KLEBES        7-APR-1988   34.13  Re-glazing Ceramic Tile?
         GLDOA::PENFROY       8-APR-1988   34.18  Tile Re-glazing
        PALMER::PALMER        8-APR-1988   34.19  Is there a trick to taking tile down?
        WLDWST::BARR          2-AUG-1990   34.25  Tile over paint?
          BUSY::CLEMENT      14-FEB-1994   34.36  Disposal of used tile?
    37  FURILO::KENT          8-JAN-1986    10  Vinyl Tile on painted concrete
        FURILO::KENT         15-JAN-1987   37.5  Vinyl tiles are easy
        SUBSYS::FILGATE      20-OCT-1988   37.6  Asphalt commercial tile on concrete 
    66  GUMDRP::PIERMARINI   24-FEB-1986    37  Tile under or around toilet?
          JOET::JOET         24-FEB-1986   66.5  De-install toilet and tile up to the hole
        MRMFG1::A_LANDERS    24-FEB-1986   66.6  TILE AND TOILET
          JAWS::AUSTIN        8-JUL-1986   66.15  Replacing Ceramic tile with Ceramic - PREP QUESTION
        TASMAN::EKOKERNAK     1-MAY-1987  102.38  To tile or not to tile?
        REFINE::HUGHES       16-OCT-1992  102.57  new tile over old plaster?
        TALLIS::KOCH         19-OCT-1992  102.59  Impossible to remove tiles & save wall.
          BRAT::THEIL        13-APR-1994  102.67  Tub surround over tile
   128    STAR::JAMES        14-APR-1986    21  hardwood floor tiles
        LATOUR::KILGORE      30-APR-1986  128.9  opinion, tip on hardwood tiles
   130  SCOTCH::GRISE        16-APR-1986    13  Tile under or around cabinets
           TLE::CLARK        16-APR-1986  130.3  Lay the tile last
          JOET::JOET         17-APR-1986  130.4  Tile first?
          YODA::DUNCANSON    12-AUG-1986  130.12  good tile man
        CHOVAX::GILSON       23-JUN-1987  130.13  Nix on tile floors
   207  SYSENG::MORGAN       19-JUN-1986     1  Wall Tile Removal
        PALMER::PALMER       23-MAY-1988  221.17  Max cantilever allowed by MA code??
         DEMON::DEMON::CHALM 16-APR-1991  221.135  My cantilever design (w/typos corrected)
        GIAMEM::PROVONSIL    18-APR-1991  221.141  can i do a 3' cantilever??
        MARVA1::POWELL        2-JUL-1990  228.15  How to install a flange on cement slab /tile floor
         MAY11::WARCHOL      29-JUL-1986  271.1  concrete well tile
        MORGAN::MAJORS       25-AUG-1986  314.3  Carpet tiles are great for a basement.
        WISDOM::NIGZUS       21-AUG-1986  317.2  R. Jordan Textiles
   329     CLT::SCHOTT       23-AUG-1986    20  Help removing vinyl tiles from Hardwood floor
        WFOVX8::KULIG        13-NOV-1990  372.20  color tiles leveler
   412  TRACTR::DOWNS        22-SEP-1986    84  Laying Tile Flooring ?????
        GUMDRP::BARWISE      30-SEP-1986  412.17  tile under woodstove
         VIDEO::FINGERHUT    17-SEP-1987  412.36  tiles
        TOLKIN::RIDGE        27-JUN-1988  412.37  tile up to carpet
        ERLANG::BLACK        30-AUG-1988  412.39  More on joining tile and carpet
        HPSRAD::DOUGHERTY    19-OCT-1988  412.40  Recommends on tile to door sill dilemma
        TRITON::FERREIRA      2-MAY-1989  412.50  THICK SETTING TILES?
        WEDOIT::BARLOW        7-SEP-1989  412.55  Thin Set or the SYSTEM 200 for gluing 13" tiles
        DISCVR::CASEY         8-SEP-1989  412.57  Look into National Tile
        ANGLIN::HEYMANS       6-MAY-1991  412.61  Wonderboard under tile for water protection?
        KIDDER::TRUDEAU       6-MAY-1991  412.66  Tile over slab with radiant heat?
        FDCV06::GERACE        6-APR-1992  412.68  Okay to tile over linoleum floor?
        CIMNET::MOCCIA        6-APR-1992  412.69  Tile 
        WASHDC::PAGANO       15-JUL-1994  412.82  Tile wobble over concrete
        SEESAW::PILANT        2-MAR-1987  517.26  Tile counters
         RINGO::FINGERHUT     6-NOV-1986  539.1  formica and tiles
           POP::SUNG          6-NOV-1986  539.3  Use ceramic tile
         DRUID::CHACE         6-NOV-1986  539.4  ceramic tile is great
        USMRW1::RSCHAVONE     7-NOV-1986  539.10  Adhesive backed tiles?
         DRUID::CHACE         7-NOV-1986  539.11  My vote's for ceramic tile
         MAGIC::COTE          7-NOV-1986  539.12  Try Tile City
        REMEDY::KOPEC         7-NOV-1986  539.15  ok, ok, I'm leaning toward ceramic tile..
        PAKORA::KANDERSON    27-JUN-1992  539.25  I no like the red tiles!!!!
         SALEM::PAGLIARULO_G 11-JUN-1990  557.3  hardwood against tile and carpet
        WYNTON::SYSTEM       27-APR-1987  567.18  How about asbestos in floor tile?
          MSEE::SYLVAIN      11-DEC-1986  637.4  consider ceramic tile
   699   OZONE::OHARE        14-JAN-1987    28  Re-grouting tile?
          CAM2::BLESSLEY     30-JAN-1987  699.4  Don't hold breath looking for matching tiles.
        CADSYS::RICHARDSON    7-MAY-1990  699.16  Step 5: install a tub enclosure over the tiles!
        COAL05::WHITMAN       7-JUL-1993  699.27  auto touch-up paint for ceramic tile repair
          STAR::SWIST        26-JAN-1987  726.10  Takes me days to install tile...
         VIDEO::FINGERHUT    26-JAN-1987  726.13  Ceramic tiles
        CLOSUS::HOE          26-JAN-1987  726.14  Goto ColorTile...
        MRMFG1::C_DENOPOULOS 28-JAN-1987  726.16  No wax tiles are nice.
         VIDEO::FINGERHUT    29-JAN-1987  726.25  Tiles
        THORBY::MARRA        29-JAN-1987  726.27  restaurant kitchen floor tiles
         CAABA::KENT          3-FEB-1989  726.49  No problem with vinyl tiles
          GOLF::BROUILLET     4-DEC-1990  726.55  Vinyl over ceramic tile?
        FSTTOO::ROTHBERG     22-OCT-1991  737.17  tile above tub wall liner
         15377::PKOW01::EBER 21-SEP-1993  737.18  Help! Sand Tile Wall?
          VINO::GRANSEWICZ    2-FEB-1988  762.17  Tile tips
   806   MAY11::WARCHOL      17-FEB-1987     3  Ceramic Tile Suppliers
        KELVIN::RPALMER      19-FEB-1987  806.2  Psst Buddy, Wanna buy some tile?
          LEDS::MUNIZ        21-SEP-1993  819.5  how about tiles in the basement?
        VMSSPT::LYCEUM::CURT 20-JUL-1994  875.31  I suppose I should be thankful it's not bricks above the tile
   914  ERLANG::BD           23-MAR-1987    28  Cutting Ceramic Tiles
         VIDEO::FINGERHUT    23-MAR-1987  914.1  tile cutters
        BPOV09::SJOHNSON     25-MAR-1987  914.9  Drilling holes in ceramic tile
         BOEHM::SEGER        25-MAR-1987  914.11  buy a tile cutter at SPAGS
        PSTJTT::TABER        25-MAR-1987  914.14  drilling tile
        KELVIN::RPALMER      26-MAR-1987  914.16  Tile ramblings
        FLUNKY::PAL          26-MAR-1987  914.17  More on making holes in tile
        CYGNUS::VHAMBURGER   14-SEP-1988  914.22  Would a carbide wire blade work for floor tile?
         MAMIE::DCOX          4-SEP-1990  914.27  Buy extra tiles.....
   932    YODA::SALEM        26-MAR-1987    20  Ceramic tile over linoleum?
        CRUNCH::CANFIELD     16-MAR-1988  932.13  Ceramic Tiles over New vinyl
           TFH::DONNELLY     15-FEB-1989  932.18  why not tile over sound base?
        MORMPS::WINSTON      13-APR-1987  1003.4  ceiling tiles?
  1016   MKFSA::STEVENS      14-APR-1987    15  Help on dull ceramic tile floor??
        SEESAW::PILANT       16-APR-1987  1016.4  Glazed tile & water = slip
        FRSBEE::GIUNTA       19-MAY-1987  1016.5  Suggestions on cleaners for tile?
        CSSE32::CZERNIAK     19-MAY-1987  1016.6  Removing carpet adhesive on tile
         SNELL::RPALMER      19-MAY-1987  1016.7  Tiles are tough
        DSTEG2::HUGHES       18-SEP-1990  1016.10  clean tile with tub and tile cleaner
         VMSSG::J_OTTERSON   17-OCT-1990  1016.11  UNGLAZED TILE-- how to get clean, how to seal...

        RANGER::PESENTI      28-FEB-1992  1016.12  "Reglazing" ceramic tile?
        NOKNOK::DEROSA       29-APR-1993  1016.15  sealing ceramic tile
  1032  TARKIN::BERKSON      16-APR-1987    13  Tile under or around cabinets?
         DRUID::CHACE        16-APR-1987  1032.5  Subfloor all but not tile.
         BEING::WEISS        17-APR-1987  1032.7  You can't nail through ceramic tile
         DRUID::CHACE        21-APR-1987  1032.10  The flange should sit on the tile, but tile last!
          PUNK::SUNG         22-APR-1987  1032.11  Tile under island
         SALEM::PAGLIARULO_G 26-JUN-1992  1081.14  Morter and Tiles sagging
          EVMS::PAULKM::WEIS 27-OCT-1991  1111.99  TILE&SLATE
         SALEM::PAGLIARULO_G 14-MAY-1992  1308.28  Wonderboard as floor tile base
          MARX::SULLIVAN     19-MAY-1992  1308.39  How big a risk with small tiles?
  1317    MSEE::CHENG        13-JUL-1987     2  how to joint tile floor with wall to wall carpet
         SSBN1::YANKES       16-JUN-1992  1358.13  Tile floor on a deck?
  1473    YODA::SALEM         1-SEP-1987    37  self-stick tiles
        FLIPIT::PHILPOTT      8-SEP-1987  1473.12  can u apply over old tile?
           RGB::SEILER       18-AUG-1992  1514.35  geotextiles under driveway?
           TSE::LEFEBVRE     16-SEP-1987  1530.2  How about masonry tiles?
  1531   DELNI::DUNLAP       16-SEP-1987    19  Cleaning Bathroom Tile: Unconventionally
        TRCA03::CILIA        21-SEP-1987  1531.3  easy way of cleaning tile
        TRCA03::CILIA        21-SEP-1987  1531.4  one more point to clean tile
        PALMER::PALMER       29-FEB-1988  1586.56  mud tips and tile questions
        TIGEMS::ELKINS       28-FEB-1992  1666.952  Looking for Tiles
         CSC32::ENTERLINE     8-NOV-1992  1666.1198  2 INCH CERAMIC TILE FOR SALE
           ICS::KAUFMANN     15-SEP-1993  1666.1422  Ceiling Tile for sale
          MPGS::CHASE        30-SEP-1993  1666.1433  FREE CEILING TILES/HANGERS
        SOFBAS::FRANTZ       26-OCT-1993  1666.1457  Ceramic Tile & Toast-R-Oven
         58323::MARCOCCIO    16-MAR-1994  1666.1533  Broken/Unwanted Tiles/Dishes
  1673  HPSCAD::FORTMILLER    4-NOV-1987    28  Removing Yellowing of ARMSTRONG NoWAX Tile?
  1746  PENUTS::CPERSON      28-NOV-1987     3  Wood grain floor tile?
          7413::EKOKERNAK    30-NOV-1987  1746.2  Ceramic tiles
         15934::PALMER        2-DEC-1987  1755.1  I bought a base, but opted for tile walls
  1819  MTBLUE::SENK_PAUL    23-DEC-1987    45  Securing subfloor for tile surface
           NAC::SCHLENER     27-NOV-1990  1819.13  Can I use tile on this floor??
        WEDOIT::KELLY         6-DEC-1990  1819.16  Tile old floor? Can be DONE!!
          BUSY::CLEMENT      31-JAN-1994  1819.26  preventing cracked tile?
        STUDIO::ARSENAULT_D   1-FEB-1994  1819.27  TILE BACKER BOARD
  1820   SALEM::BETTENCOURT  23-DEC-1987     7  CERAMIC TILE ACCENTS
        KELVIN::RPALMER      24-DEC-1987  1820.5  Custom tiles are nice but $$$$
        CSSE32::NICHOLS      26-JAN-1988  1893.6  re .5. Can you clarify volatile?
          DDIF::FRIDAY       13-MAY-1992  1896.3  Wonderboard + tiles + rubber mats
        DATABS::LAVASH       14-MAY-1992  1896.4  Tile
        AKOCOA::SELIG        15-MAY-1992  1896.5  Non-slip Ceramic Tiles
        UTRUST::VANHULST      9-JAN-1992  1974.515  protection of the tiles
  2030    JOET::WEISS        22-FEB-1988    29  Tile / Linoleum Installers 
          ECAD::BAER          7-MAR-1989  2030.7  GOOD RECOMMENDATIONS FOR TILE WORK
        DASXPS::S_BOUCHER    22-APR-1991  2030.12  Tile installer - Tewksbury, Mass.
        ROYALT::BUTLER       14-APR-1992  2030.14  TEDESCO TILE AND MARBLE
          LEDS::WITTMER       9-DEC-1992  2030.16  Request, tile inst., Worc., MA area
        DECSIM::GRODSTEIN    24-JAN-1993  2030.17  Looking for ceramic tile contractor near Arlington, MA
         HELIX::TORRES       25-OCT-1993  2030.23  Tile and Linoleum installer
        USCTR1::DWOOD         1-DEC-1993  2030.24  Tile Installer in Westford area
        KISMIF::STUKALIN      4-FEB-1994  2030.26  Mario Morelli - Ceramic Tile
         HELIX::MCGRAY       30-MAR-1994  2030.29  Peabody area tiler wanted
        CADSYS::CHAI         25-FEB-1988  2058.1  Tile store
          YODA::BARANSKI      6-MAY-1988  2089.10  are asbestos tiles that dangerous to tear up?
        REGENT::MERSEREAU     9-MAY-1988  2089.12  Asbestous tiles are nothing compared to my stuff...
  2152    SAGE::DERAMO       28-MAR-1988    13  Wonderboard under tile?
        ONFIRE::KENT          4-OCT-1988  2181.7  Try tile
  2228     CIM::PIUS         19-APR-1988    18  rotten drywall behind ceramic tile above bath tub
        CADSYS::RICHARDSON   19-APR-1988  2228.4  I finally got rid of the tiles completely
        HPSCAD::FORTMILLER   11-MAY-1988  2228.8  I HATE Tile around a Tub
        CADSYS::RICHARDSON   11-MAY-1988  2228.9  Yeah!  Goodbye, tiles!
  2312  CRUNCH::CANFIELD     19-MAY-1988     9  Ceramic tiles over hardwood floors?
        GMCTRK::FERREIRA      4-MAR-1994  2335.6  How far to Cantilever?
        AKOV85::MACDOWELL    30-SEP-1988  2350.5  Advantages/Disadvantages of Tile Counters
        SEESAW::PILANT       30-SEP-1988  2350.6  Happy with tile in the kitchen
        TALLIS::GIBSON       19-DEC-1988  2350.14  tile over old formica?
        CLUSTA::RITTER       22-MAR-1989  2350.20  Are Tile counters beset buy for $$
        SEESAW::PILANT       24-MAR-1989  2350.24  I like tile counters
        ESCROW::KILGORE      31-MAR-1989  2350.26  Another yes vote for tile counters
  2383  OLDCAR::VAN_CLEAVE   10-JUN-1988     1  How to replace shwr wall tiles?
  2574    SAGE::DERAMO       23-AUG-1988     7  Types of Floor Tiles 
        CAMLOT::DUGDALE      25-AUG-1988  2574.2  My experiences with tile
        OCTAVE::HERCHEK      21-AUG-1989  2574.4  Somerville Lumber Ceramic Tile
        CECV01::SELIG        21-AUG-1989  2574.5  Per Tile $  -vs-  SqFt $
         HELIX::MCGRAY       14-AUG-1992  2574.7  Marbleized tile (not the real stuff)
        ERLANG::BLACK         3-OCT-1988  2670.8  Ceramic tile?
  2677    YODA::MEIER         3-OCT-1988    14  Cover cement stairs w/ tile?
        PSTJTT::TABER         4-OCT-1988  2677.5  Tile works
          YODA::MEIER         4-OCT-1988  2677.6  Quarry tile...tell me more.
        PSTJTT::TABER         5-OCT-1988  2677.7  quarry tile isn't quarried...go figure
        AKOV13::FULTZ         5-OCT-1988  2677.8  Color Tile
           TLE::THORSTENSEN  12-OCT-1988  2677.12  quarry tile is cheap
  2754  PRGMUM::FRIDAY       27-OCT-1988    10  Ceramic tile around electric switches?
         VIDEO::FINGERHUT    28-OCT-1988  2754.3  Outlets and tiles
        HANNAH::DCL          28-OCT-1988  2754.4  Tiles won't burn
  2812  SAACT0::HERNANDEZ_M  15-NOV-1988     9  De-dusting concrete for linoleum self-stick tiles
  2855   SALEM::YACKEL        5-DEC-1988     7  Ceramic tile board
         MPGV5::LEVESQUE      6-DEC-1988  2855.2  Real tile is a pain
         LEVEL::REITH         6-DEC-1988  2855.3  I like REAL tile - Why veneer when it can be real
  2872    LEDS::BICKES       13-DEC-1988     7  Which comes first tile or trim.
         VIDEO::FINGERHUT    13-DEC-1988  2872.1  Tile before trim
        FRSBEE::DEROSA       13-DEC-1988  2872.2  I'd say tile last....
         VIDEO::FINGERHUT    13-DEC-1988  2872.5  tile first
          NSSG::FEINSMITH    22-DEC-1988  2888.3  same brand tiles and hangers
  2890   FRYAR::MAHER        20-DEC-1988    11  Removing residual grout from ceramic tile surface
        CIMNET::GERTNER      27-DEC-1988  2890.7  Cleaner from Color Tile??
  2905   COGMK::OCONNOR      30-DEC-1988     8  un-wax a tile floor
  2942   ULTRA::POZERYCKI    16-JAN-1989     9  tile from Spain??
         VIDEO::FINGERHUT    17-JAN-1989  2942.4  Albert Fitzgerald tiles
        TOLKIN::GUERRA       17-JAN-1989  2942.6  International Tile
        AKOV75::LAVIN        25-JAN-1989  2954.1  Hardwood & Tile - Arrrrg !
  2964  DEALIN::TETREAULT    27-JAN-1989     1  Ceramic tile over old cracked slate backsplash?
          OASS::B_RAMSEY      2-FEB-1989  2964.1  Check 1111 for index of tile notes
  2969     MDA::NEWSTED      30-JAN-1989    11  Decorator Ceramic Tile? 
        INABOX::HOWARD       30-JAN-1989  2969.1  European Tile Designs
         VIDEO::FINGERHUT    30-JAN-1989  2969.3  Albert Fitzgerald tile
        PRGMUM::FRIDAY        2-FEB-1989  2969.8  Try flea markets for antique tiles
          OASS::B_RAMSEY      2-FEB-1989  2969.9  Tile store in Atlanta, Ga.
        HPSTEK::EKOKERNAK     7-FEB-1989  2976.7  A concrete and tile solution
        PAMOLA::RECKARD      14-FEB-1989  3011.2  Good glue, yes.  Tile?  maybe
  3043   CADSE::SONG         21-FEB-1989     7  Preparing/cleaning used tiles for re-use
        STRATA::CASSIDY      10-JUN-1993  3085.43  Cheaper and more versatile...
  3095  VAXWRK::BEATON       14-MAR-1989     8  Smoothing rough edges after using tile nippers?
        NETMAN::SEGER        23-MAR-1989  3095.8  how many tiles require nipping?
  3124    ATPS::FEENY        28-MAR-1989     0  HOW TO DISSOLVE EPOXY ON CERAMIC TILE?
  3129   MCIS2::CHIN         28-MAR-1989     2  Used Thompson's to seal grout - not drying on tile!
         MCIS2::CHIN         29-MAR-1989  3129.2  Glazed tile
  3130   NRPUR::FORAN        29-MAR-1989     5  Vinyl Tile price
  3135   57028::HARPER        3-APR-1989     1  Quarry tiles on plywood?
  3202  TALLIS::MUMFORD       1-MAY-1989     7  Will epoxy spray enamel stick to tile?
         HAMER::KENEFICK      5-OCT-1990  3202.2  Hand Painting Tile
         HAMER::KENEFICK     11-OCT-1990  3202.3  tile surface prep before painting
        ESOA11::NICOLSG      24-JUL-1992  3202.5  Painting ceramic tiles - Any updates?
  3268   NERDS::BARRY        26-MAY-1989     1  removing tiles
  3283  DEMING::POLCARI       6-JUN-1989     3  Removing old grout from between tiles
          CISM::LANDINGHAM   26-JUN-1989  3314.23  Leaning towards CERAMIC TILE
        MAKITA::MCCABE       27-JUN-1989  3314.26  A word of caution on big tiles
  3323     ANT::WFRIBERG     27-JUN-1989    21  Ceramic Tile over Ceramic Tile
         NYEM1::MILBERG      27-JUN-1989  3323.2  'real' tile
        CECV01::SELIG        28-JUN-1989  3323.6  Tile UNDER the Toilet
        BUFFER::LOMBARDI     22-AUG-1989  3323.13  I wasn't aware that we had TILE SETTERS in DEC
        DEMING::CHANG        13-APR-1990  3323.15  Another tile on tile question
          OPUS::CLEMENCE     18-APR-1990  3323.17  I would tile over the old...
  3336    YODA::MEIER        30-JUN-1989     1  Brown ooze through tiles
  3352  CECV01::SELIG        17-JUL-1989     1  MUD FLOOR for TILED SHOWER STALL
  3362  MARKER::TELLERT      19-JUL-1989     5  Pool Surround - Outdoor Carpet, Rubber Tiles, or ?
  3367   CPLAN::MORGAN       24-JUL-1989     2  Tile-over-concrete-block pools
          ESPN::SIMMONS       3-AUG-1989  3393.3  Color Tile
        WEFXEM::DICASTRO      3-AUG-1989  3393.4  Once Apon A Tile
         IAMOK::ALFORD        3-AUG-1989  3393.5  have you tried Tile City?
         DEMON::DEMON::CHALM 24-SEP-1991  3393.20  Try Color Tile again...
        TOKLAS::FELDMAN      24-SEP-1989  3489.4  How about tile?
         VIDEO::NOTT         18-SEP-1989  3490.1  Why tile?
         KAYAK::GROSSO       13-OCT-1989  3522.7  we used tile
        SENIOR::HAMBURGER    25-SEP-1991  3555.15  retaining wall and/or tile drains
  3787    TOOK::M_OLSON      13-APR-1990     3  Replace 1 tile Only / Cleaning Grout
  3847    MARX::ZELTSERMAN    4-JUN-1990     4  Installing Tile over Sheetrock over Tile over ?
        MR4DEC::BMCWILLIAMS  29-OCT-1992  3847.4  Finishing joints under tile
  4001  SSGBPM::GIRAGOSIAN   16-OCT-1990     3  Replacing coping and tile in gunite pool
  4038     DKH::FULTZ        27-NOV-1990     7  Cleaning old mastic and grout from tiles
          GOLF::BROUILLET    28-NOV-1990  4038.2  Are you SURE you can remove the tiles OK?
        WRKSYS::CARLSON      30-NOV-1990  4038.7  Color Tile sells a softener
        EISKPS::SLATTERY     14-DEC-1990  4042.31  Land is the most volatile factor
  4090                       18-JAN-1991     1  Clean tile grout with acid? Any experiences?
        MR4DEC::DERAMO       21-FEB-1991  4119.20  scratches in tile
        CLOSET::RAGMOP::T_PA 18-JUN-1991  4119.34  $1 a square foot for tile removal, and worth it
         QETOO::SCARDIGNO     7-DEC-1992  4119.59  Tile on top of concrete?
  4146    MEIS::TOWNSEND      4-MAR-1991     4  Freeze-tolerant tile floor for bathroom?
          MEIS::TOWNSEND      5-MAR-1991  4146.3  Tile store says no problem with ceramic+latex
        REGENT::BENDEL       24-APR-1991  4198.5  well tiles are ....
  4244     ICS::WORRELL      22-MAY-1991     2  Bathtub Tile on Wood?
  4255   CSC32::S_HALL        4-JUN-1991     7  Tile/shower drain interface 
  4412* ISLNDS::SURDAN       21-OCT-1991     5  Installing tile backsplash-uneven wall/counter gap
         JOKUR::BASBAL::FALK  5-DEC-1991  4453.4  TileX
  4530  LJOHUB::M_GAGNON     19-FEB-1992     2  CERAMIC TILE OVER FORMICA????
  4798   SMAUG::VONHALLE     13-NOV-1992     1  Black and White Vinyl Tiles: Questions
  4830  NYTP22::NAEGELY       5-JAN-1993    12  Removing self-stick tiles!
        TECRUS::MULLENS       6-JAN-1993  4830.10  Asbestos in old tiles?
         SMURF::WALTERS      25-JAN-1993  4860.1  tile?
  4866  WEISER::RACINE        1-FEB-1993     2  Tile Ceiling in Bathroom
Tile Ceiling Fix up

  4895   SFC01::SFC01::SMITH 22-MAR-1993     3  Finishing edges of Ceramic tile
        RANGER::SCHLENER     30-APR-1993  4938.4  Tilex works well too...
  4952    MPGS::MORTON        6-MAY-1993    12  Ceramic Tile Installation Questions
          MPGS::MORTON        7-MAY-1993  4952.3  Too Late for Old Tile
          EVMS::YAHWHO::PETR 10-MAY-1993  4952.7  DuRock provides a *very* stable base for ceramic tile
          MPGS::MORTON       12-MAY-1993  4952.9  Will 1/4" Lauan be Okay for Ceramic Tile Subfloor?
  4958  SOLVIT::CASEY        10-MAY-1993     0  What Kind of cement for pool tile
  5013     ICS::SOBECKY       8-JUL-1993     3  Where to begin tiles (center-line)?
  5035    LEDS::ROBERTSON     2-AUG-1993    10  ceramic tile over chipboard?
        SOLVIT::CHACE        24-AUG-1993  5059.1  I've never seen a problem from freezing tile
         SLOAN::HOM          24-AUG-1993  5059.4  No problems with tiles
        AKOCOA::SELIG        24-AUG-1993  5059.5  Ingound Pools Use Tile
        SOLVIT::CHACE        24-AUG-1993  5059.6  I've owned 3 houses with tile that went below free
          ASDS::HARPER       31-AUG-1993  5059.12  second tiles
          CALS::HEALEY        7-OCT-1993  5059.13  I think we are doing tile!
  5088    ZOLA::AHACHE        8-SEP-1993     2  Removing Carpet glue from vinyl tile
        SDTMKT::WALKER       27-SEP-1993  5104.12  floor with tiles?
  5118   15377::PKOW01::EBER 23-SEP-1993     3  Sand the tiles?
        HDLITE::BELCULFINE   24-SEP-1993  5118.2  try tile/carpet adhesive
  5137  SDTMKT::WALKER       11-OCT-1993     3  granite tiles?
        ROLAID::LEFFERTS     20-OCT-1993  5137.3  I used granite tile
  5254   RDVAX::HEBERT       10-MAR-1994     9  COLOR TILE
  5273   HELIX::MCGRAY       30-MAR-1994     9  Where to find a tile match
         HELIX::MCGRAY       31-MAR-1994  5273.4  how many tiles get ruined?
  5328  SMOKEN::WROTHBERG    30-MAY-1994     2  Ceiling tile - 1 ft sq?
  5330  MTWAIN::RHOADES       1-JUN-1994     2  Reliable person needed for repair of bathroom tile/wallboard
  5339  ADISSW::FERRARA      10-JUN-1994     3  Carpet over Ceramic Tile?
        TIEFLY::ANDERSEN     15-JUN-1994  5339.2  Carpet over tile, sure.
          MROA::ZARRELLA     10-AUG-1994  5394.5  granite tile
  5407  VSSTEG::CHENG        24-AUG-1994     8  how to remove rows of tile without breaking thw wasll
          TOOK::MACHON       24-AUG-1994  5407.3  Remove tile and leave  wall

><<< Note 5407.5 by CSLALL::NASEAM::READIO "A Smith & Wesson beats four aces, Tow trucks beat Chapman Locks" >>>
>                           -< JEEZUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! >-
>
>I HAVE WHITE AND PURPLE TILE WITH GREEN SPECKS, SHOULD I CREATE A 
>DIFFERENT NOTE?

Can't you make you're point without being nasty about it?  Perhaps it's
time for a refresher on your Dale Carnegie course.

-Hal

Skip, DIR/TITLE=TILE *.* is useless and wasteful.  Use 1111.

>	DIR/TITLE=TILE *.* is useless and wasteful.  Use 1111.

	    Only because there are so many redundant notes that keep getting
	created over and over and over until they're repeated again and again
	and again.  But you're right, running a title search through all the
	5,400+ topics in this conference takes forever.

    Re: .11
    
    >DIR/TITLE=TILE *.* is useless and wasteful.  Use 1111.
    
    Note 1111 is almost three years out of date.  I have the suspicion that
    a few new (as in original) topics might have arisen in that period.

	Hi,

	I am in the process of preparing an area for installation of
	my jaccuzi.  The area is 4'X7' and is an ex-closet off of the
	bedroom, wall removed.  The surrounding walls are greenboard.
	(All newly installed).

	The floor in the made up of the closet floor, part of the bedroom 
	floor and a small section which was the floor of a cabinet off
	of the kitchen.  And of course all three are different heights.

	So, I have two ideas on how to approach the floor leveling
	problem.  I can fill in the floors with different thicknesses
	of plywood/boards until they are all 'level, and then apply
	a full sheet of plywood.  Or build a frame with 2X4's, laying the
	with the 4' side flat, and shim that, then cover with plywood.

	Also, should the second floor covering, over the complete sheets
	of plywood, be some sort of concrete/wonder board?  And, how does
	this material cut? (Installation of the plumbing)

	I plan on ceramic tiling the walls, part way up, as well as the
	outer walls of the jaccuzi (It's a drop in)  Should I also
	put this wonderboard up the walls?

	Kind suggestions welcome!

	/Andy

    Andy,
    
    I've tiled a couple of rooms, including a bathroom.  I would suggest
    using a leveling compound on the lower flooring to bring it up level
    with the higher floor.  Then put down sheet 1/2" plywood making sure to
    offset the seams.  Over this would go wonder board with taped seams. 
    The 3/8" concrete sandwitched between fiberglass sheets.  It you cut
    the glass sheet with an exacto knife it will break right on the line.
    Then you cut the other side of the sheet and voila you have a nice
    straight line.
    
    Tiling up a wall from the floor is kind of tricky.  The wall and floor
    don't expand and contract at the same rate.  There either needs to be
    an expansion joint or the wall tiles need to be connected to the floor
    and allowed to slip on the wall.
    
    I hope this helps.
    
    Mark

    
    
    Mark, thanks for your response.  The width of the opening where the
    tub is going is is 54 inches wide, the tub is 44 inches wide.  The tub
    was going to be flush to the right side wall, as that wall is the same 
    length of the tub, and leave the extra room to get in and out of on the 
    left.
    
    I've since decided to just split the ten and go directly to the walls
    from the sides which will cut the material required to one third.  The
    left side wall is only three feet.
    
    			-----------
    			|         |
    			|         |	I'm going to frame it with 2X6's on
    			|  TUB    |	each side, and shim them to level. 
       ------------------         |	The framing, once completed, will		
       |		*         |     cover the several floor levels.
       |   bedroom	*	  |
       |		*	  |     The ceramic tiling will go level
       | 	        **********|	with the top, and about 1 foot up
       |			  \                        the surrounding 
    				   \ kitchen                        walls.
    				    \
    				  |
    
         Should I plywood under the wonder board also or will it suffice
    	 as is?
                                                    
    
    
    
    

Well, here's a different spin on the topic.
I have a foyer with green and red slate in the entry way.
Even though the slate is in excellent shape despite being over
20 years old, I hate it and want to get rid of it.  Question is
how hard would it be to pry it up?  I'm afraid that trying to 
get the tile up would end up with a rocky, pitted surface that's
not good for anything.  
Anyone have any experience with this?
John

I've never tried to remove old tile or slate, but I am redoing a bathroom that
had the ugliest vinyl flooring ever made (trust me on this :-). I'll be
putting down ceramic tile.

Rather than try to remove the old vinyl, I just ripped out the old
underlayment and then put down new underlayment. Much easier than trying to
remove old adhesive in my case.

 						Bill

    yep, you can remove the old tile. use a large chisel or crowbar
    and hammer. problem is you will probably have to lay a new 
    underlayment as mentioned in -.1, because you WONT get off
    the old adhesive. but the tiles should come off complete !!
    
    i guess it all depends on how much inches you have to play with
    on the bottoms of you door openings.

    
    What do you plan on putting over it?
    
    /ab

    
    After tearing up 900 square feet of tile last spring, I'd recommend
    the following:
    
    	Use a floor chisel and a 3-4 lb hand sledge.
    
    	   (Home Depot sells a floor chisel with a large orange protective 
    	    handle that makes things much more convenient.)
    
    	Break out the first tile as best you can... and then remove 
    	the rest by driving the chisel at an angle UNDER the tile.
    
    	If you manage to remove the mortar (or adhesive) that remains, you're
    	still going to have to use floor leveler to fill in the inevitable
    	gouges. Due to the size of our project, we chose to tear up and
    	replace the underlayment.
    
    								- Mac
    

    If the underlayment was put down with screws and/or construction
    adhesive, won't you end up tearing up the sub-floor too. 
    
    How have people gone about removing underlayment?  Cut into managable
    sections with a circular saw set to 3/4" depth?
    
    JBS

re: .90

Get a "remodelling blade", set it for 3/4" depth, and rip it into about 1'
wide strips.  Keep a window open to let the smoke out, and don't let the
spouse watch the sparks when you hit the nails.  Use an 18" or larger crow
bar to tear up the 1' strips, allowing it to break into smaller chunks.
Safety glasses are even more of a must than normal (if such a thing is
possible), and a face mask doesn't hurt.

I took two bathroom floors down to the floor joists with this method, and I
must say it was the only part of the bathroom remodelings that was really
fun.

	If you have the clearance, i.e. door swing, tile right over
	the old tile. In talking to the professionals when doing my
	first tile job I was told one of the best substrates for a
	tile floor was an existing tile floor. Something to consider.

    
    Based on input from the pro's we got a quote from ($10K, ouch) 
    we used the following procedure:
    
    	1. Tear up the old tile (we used floor chisels and sledge 
    	   hammers as mentioned). There's actually a tool for this
    	   that looks like an ice scraper you would use on your 
    	   driveway that makes this goes amazingly faster (you use 
    	   it like pushing a shovel).
    
    	2. Attempt to scrape off the mortar (using the same tools 
    	   as you used to remove the tile). There is a reasonable 
    	   possibility that it'll pop right off. 
    
    	3. If not, using crow bars, attempt to rip up the underlayment
    	   with crowbars and the like. If it is just screwed down, it'll
    	   come up leaving not much more than what looks like nail holes (no
    	   structural concern) and the occasional divot (fill'm with 
    	   floor leveler if you like). 
    
    	      We found that a diggin bar (essentially a straight steel
    	      prybar about 6' long... founf in Home Depot's garden center)
    	      made this much easier. (Excessive force)	
    
    	4. If adhesive was used, cut the upper layer into smaller pieces
    	   and rip them out using crow bars... you'll likely damaged the
    	   subfloor occasionally and they suggested using floor leveler
    	   if the holes are too serious. 
    
    	   Adhesive can be sanded off using a floor sander, but it'll 
    	   gum up a lot of sanding sheets/belts. The easy alternative 
    	   is to leave the old adhesive beads alone, and apply the new
    	   beads between them (never crossing)... when you place the 
    	   underlayment they'll all even out.
    
    	If you attempt to tear up the subfloor as well, keep in mind that
    	it is often glued to the joists and the glue will sometimes be 
    	stronger than the wood, and you'll damage the joists (I just did
    	this to a joist when tearing up subfloor for another project).
    
    								- Mac

    My brother does this professionally, and I asked him last night (he's
    tiling my bathroom on Friday).  He pretty much confirmed what .93 said. 
    Take out a tile or two to see if the mortar is likely to come off.  He
    said that if it looks like you'll have to replace the plywood underlay,
    you can also try to take it all off at once, getting the crowbar under
    the plywood.  He said it would require strength, but could be much
    faster.  And probably better if it's a small area.
    
    Good luck.
    Susan

    
     I have two floor projects coming up this summer. One is in the
    entry, tiles are cracked. The were glued down on luan underlayment.
    These are 9x9 1/2" tiles.
     
     The other floor is the kitchen. It's armstong Glazecraft glued to 
    luan underlayment. The sub contracter used a nail gun to nail the
    luan, and 8 years later the nails are coming back up through the
    tiles.
    
     Here's the questions : 
    
       My wife would like Parkay ( SP?) in the entry. Is this a good idea
    anyone done this in an entr ? 
    
       IN the kitchen should I leave the old floor nail down new luan, and
     lay the new floor, or rip all the way down under the tile and luan.
     I have the room under doors etc.
    
    Ed

    	I don't think I'd touch parquet flooring in an entry...  Way too
    many cracks to get water into, and it won't refinish all that well
    after it gets scratched up.  Maybe if you put a fresh coat of poly on
    it every year???  I'd rip up the old tile and its underlayment.  Then
    put in a piece of wonderboard with lots of mortar and screws, then new
    tile.
    
    	For kitchen floors its SOP to put a new layer of luan over the
    existing floor as long as its not in really bad shape.  Its sure a lot
    easier than ripping up the old floor as long as you can hide the extra
    3/8 in height you'll pick up.
    
    	As for the previous answers/questions, has anyone found a good way
    to get up underlayment that goes under kitchen cabinets (and/or bath
    tubs)???  I looked for a tool to cut flush against an edge, but came up
    emtpy.  Its even worse in a kitchen where the toe kick space keeps you 
    4-5 inches from the cabinet with a regular circular saw.
    
    

    I talked to my brother about this this morning, and he said absolutely
    do not use luaun on the floor, because ceramic tile will not stick
    properly to it and you'll be sorry in the long run.  He said to get
    plywood only.  And he said you are better off using mortar, not glue.
    (This is my brother's business - he sets tile for a living.)  Also, I
    mentioned tiling over old tile and he made a face.  He didn't say not
    to do it, but he made a face.  He only believes in doing that for very
    low budget jobs, where the customer is either too poor or too cheap to 
    to have the original floor removed! :-)
    
    Also, my brother and sister-in-law had a parquet kitchen floor put down
    when they remodeled, and they regret it!  It isn't holding up that well
    to high traffic.  (It looks beautiful in the low traffic points,
    though.)
    
    Susan

    
     Just wanted to clarify. The floor in the kitchen is not tile, it
    is ARMSTRONG glazecraft. A 1/4" maybe 9x9" tile not ceramic. I'd
    never put a new floor over a ceramic tile floor. RE .94 would
    your brother rip that up, or even rip up an old linolium floor
    or put luan over it and then put down a  new floor.

    sorry the last note should have been re .97 not .94
    

    Sorry about that!  I thought it was over ceramic tile, and that's why
    he made a face.
    
    What he's doing in my bathroom is putting 1/4" (I think) plywood (not
    luaun) over the existing linoleum and then tiling (he should be through
    by now!).  He was using special mortar, too, that sets more quickly.
    If the vinyl tile would be too difficult to remove, I'd do the same as
    he's doing at my house.
    
    
    Susan

    Does anyone know if I can REgrout a tile floor right over the existing
    grout and then seal it. There is no loose grout but it has worn some
    and because it was never sealed properly, dirt has blackened the grout
    and will not come clean.
    
    So what I need to know is will it stick to the old grout. I would like
    to also use a darker grout. The current grout use to be almond.
    
    Thanks in advance........
    
                                              -Steve

                    <<< Note 412.101 by BIRDIE::ORLOWSKI >>>
                             -< Grout over Grout >-

>    Does anyone know if I can REgrout a tile floor right over the existing


	YES, you can by a grout file to take the grout down a bit, which
	is most advisable, and then regrout. It's tedious but can be done.
	The lazy alternative would be to re-stain the grout.

    Has anyone put the "heat tapes" under their ceramic tile floor?  These
    are displayed at Somerville Lumber.  You put them on the joists (I
    think) and then put the subfloor and tile on.  They are supposed to
    keep the tile floor warm.
    
    We have two small bathrooms where I would like to use this - do they
    work?  Are they easy to hook up?  Are they worth it?\
    
    Thanks for any info,
    
    Linda

I am in the process of preparing a shower stall for tiling.  I am having
a tile installer come in and do the copper pan / mud base since I'm
not comfortable doing this part myself.  

One guy who came by recommended that I use "Denseshield" instead of
Durarock or Wonderboard.  He felt it was "much better".  I wasn't home
at the time so I couldn't ask questions.  And I haven't seen Denseshield
at any of my normal haunts (HQ, Home Depot, Somerville, etc.)

Can someone explain what Denseshield is?  Is it just another brand
of cement backer board?  And if is is "much better", how?

					Thanks,
						Mark

I just saw a reference to this on the CompuServe HANDYMAN forum - I'll
dig it out and post it here.  I remember it's made by Georgia-Pacific.

				Steve

------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #43187-Kitchen floor/tile,wood? - Msg Number: 43264
   From:  ALFREDO ALVARADO 72702,2304
     To:  Chita Cazares 72500,1162
  Forum:  HANDYMAN   Sec: 01-Ask Your Forum
   Date:  22-Mar-95  00:56:19

Chita,

 The backerboard in question is called Densheild, made by Georgia Pacific,
actually it's a drywall core (silicone impregnated) that is covered by a
fibreglass matting on both sides, then on one side is covered by an
acrylic plastic coating, that's the side the tile goes on. It is lighter
than all CBU's and comes in a 4x8 format rather than a 3 x 5 format. They
claim it is water resistant and will not degrade if exposed to water (
left uncovered or say a leak in the installation of it). I have been
torture testing a sample piece by just leaving it in water submerged and
to my surprise it does not crumble or decay over night, it doesn't seem
to absorb the water, curios stuff.

 But I am a cement based man and like cement based tile backer boards
despite the fact that they are heavier. Densheild comes with a 20 year
limited warranty. I still use Hardibacker as it's lightest of all cement
based tile backerboards and is very strong and thin.

 The curios thing about it (Densheild) is that you can use it on floors
too.



 Alfredo Alvarado
 Assistant Sysop - The Family Handyman
 Section 5 -  Remodeling

 writing at 9:07 PM,
 on Tuesday, March 21, 1995
 Using EMail Assist for CSNav


    

Thanks Steve!  

Anyone seen it anywhere in the Maynard/Nashua area?  If so, how much?

						Mark

Hi,

This coming weekend I am going to try to remove the old tile work
from a second floor bathroom. The problem is that the tile that's
there was installed 30 years ago, and is what I've been told is
a "mud-job". It doesn't look like it's going to be easy to remove.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

Roy

tuxedo::klein
DTN: 226 5505

I recently had to do this in two bathrooms with 23 year old 
floors.  It wasn't as bad as I thought it would be.  What
I ended up doing was chipping up a row of tiles and then 
cutting through the sub floor with a carbide tipped blade.
After that, pry up the sub-floor with crow bars and
then replace the sub floor with plywood underlayment.
My floor was nailed down with ring nails.  If yours is
screwed and/or glued it'll be tougher to pry up.  Make
sure you wear glasses and gloves because there'll be a
lot of things flying around.
You could also try chipping up all the tiles and then try to
get the tile cement off the floor.  I've seen this done with
a disk grinder and it came off just fine except you will
have to stop frequently to un-clog the grinder.  A jimmy-bar
and a small sledge hammer works pretty well on chipping up
the tiles.

John

    
    re: -1
    
    ... but that doesn't sound like a mud-job tile installation.
    
    	A mud job installation is where they pour a layer of mortar
    	or concrete over the subfloor (usually 1-2" thick) and install
    	the tiles over it. 
    								- Mac

    
    Saw it at HQ in Manchester this weekend, they had a video tape
    showing the product. - a 4' x 5' sheet was around $12 +/- 

It turned out to be a much easier task than I expected.

After breaking apart the tub, and removing it, one edge of the tile
was open. We were able to wedge a crow bar between the plywood under-
layment and the wire mesh under the mortar. Then we just hit the area
above it with a sledge hammer, and it broke apart. We continued all the
way across the floor.

Some lessons learned:

	1) Always wear safety goggles, leather gloves, and
	   a good quality dust mask (I used a whole package
	   of the cheap ones - it would be much smarter to 
	   spend the bucks on a high quality one)

	2) You need at least a ten pound sledge to break apart
	   a cast iron tub.

	3) Don't try breaking apart tile/mason without a good 
	   shop-vac nearby!

	4) Nothing is ever as simple as it seems. Once we were
	   done ripping out the masonry, we found that the underlayment
	   was rotted around the toilet, so... we decided to rip that up
	   as well. It was much more difficult than taking up the tile.
	   supposedly there's something called a "cat's paw" which you
	   can use to get embedded nails out of wood - I wish I knew about 
	   that tool before I started!

	5) When you think you're done - you're not...  After getting 
	   the plywood up, the underlayment was also rotted! So that got 
	   ripped up as well. It was easy, yet still one more unplanned
	   repair.  [ I still wonder why the toilet didn't fall through
	   the floor - does it just sit on the cast iron sewage pipe? ]

	6) Remove the light fixtures and bulbs from the ceiling below 
	   the room you are working in before starting.

I'm glad it's done!

	6) Remove the light ... before starting.
    
    Step "0" :-)
    
    Good description.
    
    ed
    

You might ask around in your neighborhood.  You might be lucky enough to
find another house in the neighborhood being renovated.  Several years back
I drove down the street and saw my neighbor throwing away two milk crates full
of the tile he removed during a bath renovation.  They are the perfect match to
the tile in the kitchen of my 100 year old house and allowed me to replace
some that needed it.  Who knows how old they are but I couldn't match them when
I tried tile places.   I was told that tile changes like wall paper. 

I think the best pre-emptive solution is to always buy extra when doing a tile 
job and hide them away.  When faced with your situation, I second the idea
to find a complimentary or accenting color and make it look like it was planned
that way. 

I'm installing a new house-to-garage metal door and the mud room is tiled with
something like 12x12 tiles.  I think the threshold of the new door is deeper
than the old.  If so, I might have to cut the tiles that butt up to the old
threshold to accomodate the new threshold.

How to do this?  Masonry blade in a circular saw?  

Another idea I had was to avoid cutting by shimming the rest of the threshold
area up to the level of the floor tiles.  This would leave the new threshold
sitting on top of the existing floor tile.  Any problems with this idea (other
than what to do during future floor replacement?).

Any other ideas?

-Chris

    Quick question:
    
    Is it necessary to fill the ~1/16" gaps between plywood and the screw
    dimples w/ a cauking?  If so, what type?  (Won't the thinset fill it in
    just fine?)
    
    thank you
    
    John

    Thanks Bob.... that's what I did.
    
    * >>(Won't the thinset fill it in just fine?)
    *
    * Yes.
    *
    *Cheers,
    *Bob
    
    
    One more important note when doing tiling...
    
    Make sure all the tiles are the SAME size!!!!!!!!!  I ran into a box
    that had tiles that were all 1/16" larger(after I had put a bunch of
    them down of course).  I was able to pull them up and replace w/
    correct size tiles.  I'm using 1' tile(11 3/4") and just a sixteeth can 
    make a huge difference.
    

    I tiled my entire house with ceramic tile (Mexican Saltillo look-alike
    without the maintenance) and used one of those small handheld saws with a 
    special tile cutting blade.  Ask someone in Home Depot about it and 
    they'll get you the right blade.  That's where I got mine.  Those
    manual tile cutters were useless to me.  They cut crooked and go dull
    on you after 150 sq. ft. of cutting.
    
    Mike

    I agree with .30 on the uselessness of the manual tile cutters. 
    Better to go with the special saw blade.
    
    Tom

    Chris
    
    You have a number of options:
    
    	- buy the blade that -.1,-.2 are talking about to go into a
          jig-saw
    
    	- rent/buy a tile cutter
    
    	- rent(to buy is way to expensive) a wet saw(I just did this last
          weekend from Robinson rental in Hudson.  Works real well, but
          you'd have to weigh the cost vs. need because you can opt for...
    
    	- have home depot cut you the tiles at $1/cut.   Definitely get the
          tiles that you will see(ie/ wont' be covered by a floor molding)
          cut cleanly.  HD cuts them w/ a wet saw.
    
    Good luck.
    
    	John

    Quick question:
    
    Is it necessary to fill the ~1/16" gaps between plywood and the screw
    dimples w/ a cauking?  If so, what type?  (Won't the thinset fill it in
    just fine?)
    
    thank you
    
    John

    
    
    I have an older bathroom with tiled walls.  It had an older style cast
    iron sink that was bolted onto the tiled wall with a bracket underneath
    the sink, so you couldn't see it.  I replaced that sink with a newer
    lavatory type sink.  But this sink is lower on the wall than the older
    sink, thus all of the lag screw holes that held up the old sink,
    can be seen. 
    
    There are 4 tiles in the wall, all in a horizontal row that carry these
    holes.  I would like to just replace them with new tiles and not 
    touch the rest of them.
    
    What is the simplest way to remove these tiles without affecting the
    other tiles are them?  Should I use a grout saw to remove the old
    grout and then gently chissel off the old tiles?
    
    Or is there a safer method?? 
    
    ALso, the floor is tiled and I would like to change the tile.  It is
    in very good physical shape, flat, etc.  Can I just tile over these
    tiles with the new tiles. The are ceramic and put very tight together.
    Or do I need to rip up the old floor?
    I thought I heard of some type of adhesive that you can get that allows 
    ceramic tiles to go over ceramic tiles.  
    
    Due to the tiles-on-tiles, my toilet may end up being raised about
    3/4".  Would this be a problem??
    
    
    Thanks for any suggestions.
    
    		Mike

    	I've had good luck getting wall tile off by heating them with a
    propane torch and prying under them with a putty knife. I sacrificed
    one by intentionally breaking it so I could get under the others. This
    was for tiles adhered with mastic. I doubt this would work for thin-set
    though.
    
    	Ray

    >Due to the tiles-on-tiles, my toilet may end up being raised about
    >3/4".  Would this be a problem??
    
    
    It may be, depending on how it's placed now.  You may be able to get
    away w/ just adding a flat wax ring(like a big washer ~1" thick) to the
    normal wax ring when replacing the toilet.  I did this to one of our
    toilets and it works fine.
    
    John

    I don't think it's wise to tile on top of tile at all.  Tiling on top
    of linoleum or vinyl would be okay, but not on top of ceramic.  And
    don't forget that this will also affect the threshhold for your door.
    
    
    Susan

    >I don't think it's wise to tile on top of tile at all.  
    
    I agree.
    
    >Tiling on top
    >of linoleum or vinyl would be okay, but not on top of ceramic.  And
    
    I disagree.  Where did you hear that?  I would never tile over
    lino/vinyl.  At least put 3/8" AC down first, w/ screws every 6-8"
    apart(more at the seams).
    
    John

    From my brother, who lays ceramic tile for a living.  It does depend on
    the age and thickness of the vinyl/linoleum, though.  --S

    
    
    Gee, I was told one of the best substrates for tile was tile, again
    from a professional. Go figure.

I need to replace a light fixture in a bathroom shower ceiling.  The ceiling is 
tile over plaster over cement and is about 1" thick.  The closest fixture in
size that I can find is 1/4" larger than the available ceiling opening.  So, I
need to open up the hole by 1/4" along 1 dimension. Anyone have suggestions as
to the best way to do this?  My first thought is to just go at it with a nibbler
and see if I can cut 1/4" away without cracking tile. 

George

    George
    
    I put a vent in my tiled ceiling bath that was ~1' in diameter.  This
    was through tile and a mud job ~3-4" thick(which also includes that
    metal mesh screening).  What a bear -to say the least.
    
    What I ended up doing was getting a masonry drill bit and drilling
    about 200 holes and then getting a sawzall and cutting through the
    rest... went through about 4 blades. (No, they don't make a masonry
    blade for the sawzall)
    
    John

    Another thing you could do, depending on whether you can get in there,
    is to drill one hole, stick a hacksaw masonry blade through the hole
    and connect it back up to the saw.  Then hack away.

Does anyone know the approximate cost of a sheet of 98" x 30" x 1/4"
Corian (Glacier White)?  I'm getting estimates for a job and
knowing the cost of the material would help.  I called HD and
they said you can only get it from a distributor.

While I'm here, a basic (maybe dumb) tiling question;

I am tiling the side of a jacuzzi box.  The box is framed
with plywood.  Should I use thin set mortar to attach the
tiles or is there a wall tile adhesive I should use instead?

					Thanks,
						Mark

>Does anyone know the approximate cost of a sheet of 98" x 30" x 1/4"
>Corian (Glacier White)?  I'm getting estimates for a job and
>knowing the cost of the material would help.  I called HD and
>they said you can only get it from a distributor.

	While I don't know the exact cost, 'expensive' is a good
first approximation.  Also, you can't buy it unless you've taken
an official installer's training class - the maker want's to keep
the reputation up, and maintain the guarantees, and is afraid of
hack installs ruining both.  There are other brands that are equivalent
(swanstone, some others) and can still be bought by normal people.
	The last time I had to buy Formica, in a particular color,
the big box stores (HD, HQ) were useless - they usually only carry
one brand, and don't have any but the basic colors.  I tried calling
a small shop - they referred me to the REAL distributor - a big place
down in Woburn, near the Charrette store off 95.  EVERY color and
size of Formica you ever imagined, with all the glues, tools, and
even booklets on how to install, and all the proper countertop underlayment
in the handy (for countertops) sizes.  I believe they carried the
Formica-brand solid surface stuff, too.  And this is where the big boxes
as well as the little guys get their stuff from - so you save money.

>I am tiling the side of a jacuzzi box.  The box is framed
>with plywood.  Should I use thin set mortar to attach the
>tiles or is there a wall tile adhesive I should use instead?

	The best job would be a real mortar bed - layers of tar paper,
screen mesh, full mortar bed, til.  Next down is thin set on concrete
board underlayment, then mastic on concrete board, then mastic on plywood,
then mastic on wallboard (green or otherwise).  All that said, I've used
mastic on plywood, wallboard, and concrete board with good success, but 
the risk is that if your substrate moves, the grout will crack.  Minimize
this with a solid frame and a latex additive to the grout instead of water,
as this gives a more flexible grout.  None of this is hard except the grouting;
it's a mess, scary, and difficult to clean up properly.  Remember to avoid
grout in any corner joints (they WILL move and crack) and use good caulk
instead.

>	While I don't know the exact cost, 'expensive' is a good
>first approximation.  Also, you can't buy it unless you've taken
>an official installer's training class - the maker want's to keep
>the reputation up, and maintain the guarantees, and is afraid of
>hack installs ruining both.  

my data is certainly old, but when I looked into buying corian several years 
back, my lumber yard had no problem quoting me prices nor did they ever ask to
see any sort of certificate.  perhaps this is only an issue with the mega-stores
trying to avoid returns by their customers...

as for price, again going back several years, the ballpark was about $50 a 
lineal foot for 25" counter top.  I don't remember the thickness.  It also 
turns out to come in various thicknesses ranging from 1/4" to 3/4".  I just
assumed one would use 3/4" on a counter top, but...

I never did go through with the project because to cover my kitchen island,
which is quite large, would have cost $2K and then I'd have to install it!

-mark

 my data is certainly old, but when I looked into buying corian several years 
 back, my lumber yard had no problem quoting me prices nor did they ever ask to
 see any sort of certificate.  perhaps this is only an issue with the mega-stores
 trying to avoid returns by their customers...

This is a recent policy change.  

 lineal foot for 25" counter top.  I don't remember the thickness.  It also 
 turns out to come in various thicknesses ranging from 1/4" to 3/4".  I just
 assumed one would use 3/4" on a counter top, but...

Solid surface countertops are typically 1/2" thick, with two additional
strips glued to the edge to add up to 1.5" total edge thickness.  This is
invisible if done properly, or very visible if a contrasting color is used
for the middle layer, as is often done now for appearance.  Once your edge
is built up, you can rout any profile you like on it.

    re:455
    
    	Are you making a jacuzzi tub (i.e. tiling inside of tub) or is the 
    plywood on the wall above and around the jacuzzi ? I couldn't tell for
    sure from your note.
    
    	Ray

re: 459

Sorry.  The jacuzzi is a fiberglass Jacuzzi, already installed.  It is 
enclosed in a stud/plywood box.  Think of it like a tissue box with the
tub set in the opening on the top.  I'll be tiling the top area around
the tub and the sides of the box.

I've done plenty of floor tiling but I've never done walls.  I was just
wondering if the techniques or materials vary at all.


re: Corian.

I asked about price here in case someone might already know the answer.  I
haven't made any other calls for prices.  I'm sure its not that difficult
to get a quote.

The 1/4" is not for countertop.  We were looking into using it instead of
tile for a custom size shower surround.  The price may be moot at this point
because it will be more than we wanted to spend.

				Thanks for all the help,

						Mark

    	I would think that the tile mastic (adhesive) would be much easier to 
    use than morter, especially on a verticle surface. The mastic also has
    a little give to it in the event there is any flexing of the walls.
    This is the reason that it can't be used for large floor tiles (the give
    can crack the tiles under load). The mastic sticks to just about anything.
    
    	Ray

     I found a place that has white 3" x 6" tiles that could possibly be 
used to replace the cracked, drilled and broken tiles in my 86 year old 
bathroom.  But they are whiter than the 86 year old tiles.  

     Could it be that the old tiles have yellowed slightly over the 
years?  If so, it there a way I can age a batch of new whiter tiles to a
closer color?  Might it be UV light that has caused the yellowing?  Would 
I have any luck leaving the new tiles in the back yard all summer?  Any 
other ideas?

    	I'm not sure if tiles fade, but could it simply be that the tiles
    are a different shade of white to start with ?
    
    	Ray

I would ask a tile store.  They probably know all the tricks.

Jim

	Won't a nice layer of soap scum over all of them
even out any variations?  ;-)

    
    I have heard that there are salvage operations that sell things like
    windows, doors, bathroom fixtures (and tile) from old homes. I've 
    never actually been to one but it might be worth a try. I swear tile
    manufacturers change colors slightly every 2-3 years just to make life
    miserable for us...       

    make apattern by replacing the needed ones and some not needing
    replacement maybe use a contrasting color (black)...
    
    
    		Dean

>    make apattern by replacing the needed ones and some not needing
>    replacement maybe use a contrasting color (black)...
    
     I don't have that luxury.  I'm replacing cracked, broken and drilled 
tiles that are in the middle of walls.

     The colors are pretty close, but not close enough.  The store where I 
ordered the tile didn't know any way to deliberately discolor them.

You could try baking them at low temp.  Only do one in case it doesn't work and
I would not go too high on the temp.  Open the door quickly to see if the color
has changed, but don't let the too much cold air hit them.  Turn off the oven
and let them oven cool to keep them from cracking. 

Jim

I doubt that would help.  They were glazed by firing in a kiln hotter than
your oven.

    why not try emersing them in a strong tea/coffee bath to soak
    up the "aging"!  it is done with fabric and just might give 
    you a slight tinge.   at least it won't hurt to try.

    
    ... or apply a dark brown grout to the surface of the new tiles (before
    setting them in place), work it in really well, and then remove it, as
    you would if you were actually grouting. (And don't ask me how I know.)
    

>                    <<< Note 207.470 by CHIPS::LEIBRANDT >>>
>                              -< Another Option? >-
>
>    
>    I have heard that there are salvage operations that sell things like
>    windows, doors, bathroom fixtures (and tile) from old homes. I've 
>    never actually been to one but it might be worth a try. I swear tile
>    manufacturers change colors slightly every 2-3 years just to make life
>    miserable for us...       

They don't have to do it on purpose.
Considering the variation from one day's production to the next
can't be guaranteed to match in color, shifts over years are inevitable.
The human visual system is able to discern differences in color
better than current technology can easily match colors.

IF it were only a matter of fast-aging the tiles, the the UV or baking
suggestions might work, but today's tiles aren't starting out at 
the same white that the old tiles had, so no "catch-up" strategy will work.
I don't think tiles change much in color anyway.  It's not like draperies
or upholstery or rugs, or even wall paint.

If the match is close enough to live with, go with it.
If the match isn't close enough, you can scour tile stores and try to 
find a closer match (and make sure the store has the same kind of lighting
the bathroom does!).
Other than that, choosing a contrasting color and turning a problem
into a solution is attractive to some people.

Hint to would-be tilers:  ALWAYS order a couple of dozen more tiles than
you'll need for the job.  Put the extras in a well-labeled box and leave
them in the house when you sell it.  This is the ONLY matching solution 
that will work.

- tom]

    re:466
    
    	If you are able to remove whole tiles without breaking them, you
    might consider pulling the whole top row of tiles off to use as spares
    or for repairs, then replace the whole top row with contrasting border
    (pattern) tiles. This will spruce up your bathroom in the process. You 
    can even do a line of tiles in the middle of the wall too.
    
    	If the tiles are put on with mastic, I've had good luck heating the
    tiles with a propane torch, then heat up a wide putty knife blade and
    slide it under the tile. You usually have to break at least one to get
    enough room to slide the putty knife in. Since you already have broken
    ones, it doesn't sound like that's a problem.
    
    	Ray
    
    PS - If you go this route, make sure you buy extra border tiles ;-)

    re: -1
    
    Now there's improvisation at it's best.
    
    I've had to remove tiles from a closet floor to match the bathroom
    tiles.  Used as close a match as was available back in the closet.
    
    
    Dick

I've been told that if it's a mud job, it's practically impossible to remove
tiles without breaking them.

     Whats behind the broken off tiles is concrete-like.  Remember, the 
house was built in 1910.  So no tiles can be moved from behind the toilet.

     The low temp baking doesn't sound promising, based on the observation 
that the tiles are made in a much higher temp oven.

     I'm doubtful of soaking the tiles in tea, but what the heck, I'll 
give it a try.  

     I still think UV light has the best potential for slightly 
discoloring the tiles.  Does anyone know of an EPROM eraser in the GMA?

Sounds like a mud job.

    
    Did you look for a salvage place?

    I have searched this topic fro advise but still have questions.
    
    I am installing a whirlpool tub and it is time to install the platform.
    In the platfrom I need to cut 3 1.25" diameter holes for the
    faucets/spout.
    
    What is the best way to get a 1.25" diamater hole in 1/2" thick
    wonderboard?
    
    Thanks,
    
    David.

    A 1.25" hole saw.  The wonder board is pretty soft and will cut very
    easily.  Alternatively you can use an old wood boring bit but not a good
    one.  It'll dull it up pretty well.  A saber saw will also work after
    drilling a pilot hole.  

    
    I used a 1" masonary bit and it worked great.  I don't remember seeing
    a 1 1/4" bit, but I'm sure it exists.
    
    For bigger curved cuts, I used a masonary saw blade on a jig saw.
    
    John

I drilled small center hole with carbide tipped drill, then scored the outer 
circumferance with razor knife on both sides, then punched it out with a 
hammer. The results weren't pretty, but don't need to be if you're tiling 
over it.  It's funny how we home owners can take an hour to do what the pros
do in three minutes.

    I thaught that I would complete the story of the 1.25" holes in
    wonderbaord since the tub is now finished and in use.
    
    I did not use wonderboard. When measuring the faucet I needed a height
    of 3/4" instead of 1/2" so I went with 3/4" ACX plywood. Of course this
    was easy to drill with a wood boring bit.
    
    However for the tiles I did purchase a carbide drill bit that expands
    from 1" to 4" diameter. It was expensive but made the job very simple
    and looks GREAT. As I keep telling my wife "the right tool for the
    job".
    
    The finished result is super and the first time I used the tub my
    thaughts were why did we wait so long!!!
    
    Thanks for all the suggestions.            
    
    David.