Conference 7.286::home_work

    ho,ho,ho, i *of course* meant "...the light stays on again until
    you shut it off or it gets *light* out."
    
    geez!

	I am looking for a solution to hanging a heavy swag-type
    chandalier from a cement ceiling. The hook that the chain previously
    hung from was secured by screwing it into a wooden beam when I had a
    plaster ceiling. It is now going to be suspended from a cement ceiling.
    With a lighter fixture, I could have drilled a hole in the cement and
    inserted a plastic anchor to screw the hook into. The problem is that 
    this chandelier weighs about 40 - 50 lbs. Any suggestions? Can I use
    some sort of a gun and fire a stud into the ceiling that has a thread
    size that I can screw the hook onto? The fixture is not wired into the
    ceiling - it has a cord that plugs into an outlet.

		Thanks for the help.
			
				Paul

    What about the possiblity of drilling a hole into the cement and
    putting in an expanding lead-shield type anchor?  A 1/2" dia hole
    will give you a 1/4-20 thread in the anchor.  
    
    Bruce Bretschneider

    I used the plastic slug-type expanding anchor about 10 years ago
    and had good luck with them.  The threads of the lag bolt didn't
    cut into them as easily as in the lead, so I felt that it allowed
    more side pressure and provided more strength.
    
    -joet

    The anchor I was referring to has a section that expands the
    lead into the concrete.  The threads of the lag screw do not make 
    any contact with the lead.  If you use a good masonry bit 
    (preferably in a hammer drill), you shouldn't have too much 
    trouble drilling the hole.  The trouble will come with the dust 
    falling all over everywhere.

    
    BB

    There are some anchors for cement called (I think) "Tamp-ins" or
    some such.  They come in various sizes and consist of an inner metal
    piece, threaded, with an outer lead collar.
    
    			----------
    			|\      /|
    			| \    / |
    			| |    | |
    			| |    | |
    			----------
    
    The inner (tapered/straight) section is the part that is threaded,
    and the outer section is the lead.  You drill a hole, put in one
    of these things, then use a special tool to mash the lead shield
    down, out against the sides of the hole.  You can get them 3/4"
    diameter with a 3/8-16 thread, and they hold beautifully.  Ought
    to be enough for a 40-pound chandelier.
    
    Steve
    

In a recent conversion from steam heat to forced hot water, my plumber
had a nasty problem with a riser.  The pipe was positioned right next to
the plaster board rather than in a special cavity that had been already
designed into the brick (solid masonry house).  When he tried to get out
the riser (to put a new copper one in for the FHW), part of the paster
wall in my living room next to the ceiling came out. The plumber is 
anxious to get it fixed, will pay, but is having a hard time getting 
somebody to do such a small job (when there are major additions being 
done all over the place). See note 454.  

This weekend I had an *idea*!

We have been thinking about putting in track lighting in our living 
room, but have hesitated due to the problems in fishing the wires 
needed. The hole is in an *ideal* location for fishing wires!

Here is a rough layout of the end of my living room:
                 +---------------------------------------+
                 |                                       |
                 #                                       |
                 #                                       |
         Window  #                                       |
                 #             FT       FT               |
                 |CCCCCCCCC                              |
                 |        C         C=couch              |
                 T     T  C                              |
                 |        C         T=track light head   |
                 |        C                              |
                 |        C         FT= Possible future  |
                 |     T  C             track head       |
                 |        C                              |
                 |        C                              |
     Hole at     |     T  C                              |
     ceiling  -->|        C                              |
     here        |CCCCCCCCC                              |
                 |                                       |
                 |                                       |
                 /////////////////////////////////////////
So my questions are:

1. Are there "standard" locations for a track (how close or how far out
from the wall) so that it would be situated in a good place above a
couch for reading (e.g., 24",36" or whatever)?  Do you try to bounce 
the light off the wall rather than use it directly?

2. I am going to have to cut a hole through the plaster ceiling.  I 
plan to locate the box next to a stud.  

      (a) I assume I will try to screw the box into the stud somehow.
          Is there a "best" way.  My first idea is to use sheet rock 
          screws through holes in the side of the box (which I may need 
          to make).

      (b) Should I use a standard rectangular box or the larger round 
          (octagonal?) type box?

      (c) I will probably go with a dimmer switch.  Should I consider 
          something like a two-circuit track (do they exist)?  I may in 
          in the future want to add an extension to the track making it
          "L" shaped in the future in order to add two additional track
          heads (marked FT in the diagram).  Does this influence 
          anything in the wiring?

      (d) Any suggestions for cutting through the plaster without doing 
          even more damage (I believe it is on metal lathe for the 
          ceiling even though the walls are something like blueboard; 
          the house in 1946 vintage)?


Thanks, 

Alex

    we're having track lighting installed in our new house, by the
    electrician, so I can answer some but not all of your questions.
    
    1) track distance from wall is determined by distance below ceiling at
    which the light is desired to hit wall.  This is figured to give an
    angle (30 degrees) for the light head which will avoid shining in
    anyone's eyes.  we found a chart in the Progress Lighting catalog
    that showed normal values for various heights.  I would expect that
    indirect lighting off the wall would be preferable assuming adequate
    light levels, and it can also give the benefit of spotlighting any
    art or wall decorations above the couch.
    
    2) I'm not sure of the feed-in mechanism, I got the impression that
    there is some fairly tidy direct connection to the cable without
    a box, based on our proposed mounting scheme (on a solid beam).
    
    3) The Progress Lighting catalog listed 1-circuit and 3-circuit
    tracks.  The 3-circuit track seemed like overkill for the typical
    home installation so we didn't even look to see if the price
    differential was significant (my guess would be that it is).  It
    would take 3 cables, 3 switches for 3 circuits, you'd get some more
    flexibility but how much and at what cost I can't say.
    

    re.0 another source for multiple circuit track lighting is 'Halo'
    made by a division of Mcgraw Edison it used to be somewhat 
    better quality than Progress with simular pricing.
    p.s. this info held true a few years ago.
    -j
    

    My S. O. and I were out shopping for living room lights and we came
    across the halogen floor stand type lights.  They point up at the
    ceiling and 'look' like they would give a lot of light, but it was
    hard to judge in a store where all the lights are on anyway and
    it's daytime outside.  I asked a salesperson how the amount of light
    compares with, say, 150 watt bulb.  No idea.  I asked for the number
    of lumens and I got a really blank stare.  Anybody know how much
    light one of these puts out?  Also, we were in Marlboro Electric
    and the price for a floor stand lamp was about $190.  Is that price
    about what they cost or can they be gotten less expensively elsewhere?

    I'll also post this in Consumers notes file.

    I have an outdoor Halogen light whose bulb is burned out.  I've
    not had any luck finding a replacement for it here in southern NH.
    The bulb looks like:
                                 __
                                /  \
                                |  |
                                |  |
                                |  |
                                |  |
                                |  |
                                \  /
                                 == 
                                 == 
    
    That is, it has a screw at one end and nothing at the other, just
    like a normal light bulb.  Does anyone know where I can get a
    replacement for this bulb.
    
                                                August G. Reinig            

    You should be able to purchase the bulb from an electrical supply
    house as they are standard stock. The bulb or fixture should have
    a number code giving the correct replacement.
    If that fails take the bulb with you also halogen and mercury vapor
    are not the same but can be interchanged in the fixture resulting
    in ballast meltdown.
    the code for halogen should be something like H175/m ect.
    -j

      I just picked one up at ....where else???  Spags

    Where did you find the best price on Juno?
    

RE: .4

Because we had very little time to look (the hole was *supposed* to 
have been fixed the next day, but there was a change in plans), it may 
not be the best price. We got the lighting at Mid-city lighting in 
Lawrence, MA.  If their prices are valid, there is quite a discount on 
their stuff.  We spent about $45 per brass head and about $60 for the 
brass track, if I remember correctly.  The heads were relatively large ones
(75 watt spots) that look a bit like:


                             +++++
                             +++++
                             +++++
                          ---+++++----
                        / ___________ \                                    
                       / /           \ \                                   
                      | /             \ |                                  
                      ||               ||  ||                              
                      ++               ++==||                              
                      ||               ||  ||                              
                       |               |                                   
                       |               |                                   
                       |               |                                   
                       |               |                                   
                       |               |                                   
                       |               |                                   
                       |               |                                   
                       |_______________|                                   


Alex

I'm planning to replace the ceiling lighting fixture in my upstairs hallway
with three wall fixtures.  The wiring is no problem, since there is an
attic above, but I'm wondering how to physically support the wall fixtures.

The lights are  single bulbs with glass shades on a gooseneck sticking out
of a metal plate that is fixed to the wall, i.e. not particularly heavy.
In new work, I preume that one would use a junction box on a bar nailed to
the studs, and then position the box where one wanted the light.
But in old work (my case), is it
necessary to open up the wall to do this, or can I

    (1) Use a switch box with ears and those flat peices of metal to stop 
        it falling into the wall cavity, or an old work box with those
        molly-screw-like things on the side
    
    (2) If I can get next to a stud, use an octagonal box and screw it 
        kinda sideways

Any other ideas?

    I'd stick to your first suggestion IF the spacing for the screws
    on the wall fixture match the spacing of the holes on the box, OR
    you've figured out how to get one on those flat mounting stips
    attached to the box and the screws from the fixture will line up
    with the mounting strip.
    
    Matching fixture to box is easier with an octagonal box, but I've
    not seen one that mounts into the wall as easily as the other
    boxes you described.  
    
    Personally, I'm not above drilling a hole for the wire, making
    the electical connection, pushing the wire back into the wall,
    and screwing the damn fixture right into the wall.  But that
    ain't the code!
    

    
    I think I'd go with the retrofit switch boxes. Before you do anything,
    however, you should have the light fixtures in hand, and know how
    they mount to the box - this will tell you if the mounting hardware
    is sufficiently generic to be used with a switch box, and also what
    orientation (if any) the swith box must assume to make the installation
    look right (eg, you might have to install the box horizontally).

The variables seem to be:

- How heavy is "not particularly heavy"?

- Are these wall fixtures likely to be bumped by people walking past? 
  Consider furniture-moving as a worst case.  (I hope they'll be up too
  high to interfere with normal household activities). 

- Does "gooseneck" mean that the lights are adjustable/aimable?  How likely
  are they to be adjusted by people with little regard for the solidity of
  the mounting?  (I hope not very).

- What's the existing wall made of, what condition is it in, how is it 
  finished, how difficult is that finish to repair?

- Won't you be getting your wall-repair tools and materials out anyway, to 
  repair the hole where the ceiling fixture used to be?

Assuming reasonably standard answers to these questions, your proposed 
schemes seem fine.  They meet code for remodeling work.  I would try to get 
next to the studs, though.


> If I can get next to a stud, use an octagonal box and screw it 
> kinda sideways

I recommend drywall screws and a long screw bit (or extension) for this job. 

    It turns out that my wife didn't like those particular fixtures,
    (wrong color) so some of the questions are no longer relevant.
    
    The lamps arn't flexible, and should be high enough to discourage
    the kid's swinging on them.  The walls are new (5 years old) sheetrock;
    dito the ceiling.  Yes, I'll have tyo patch the ceiling, but don't
    have the paint to match the walls, so would have to redo the who
    hall.
    
    Actually, I was planning to mount a smoke detector to cover the
    hole in the ceiling.  Smart idea?   Or one day it may become a whole
    house fan.
    
    

Yup, those are the "fairly standard answers" I was assuming.

Right, if you don't have any matching paint for the walls, then avoiding
opening them up makes good sense.  You might lean toward fixtures with 
large escutcheon plates, the better to cover up the larger-than-needed
holes you'll undoubtedly make. 

Smoke detector to cover the ceiling hole is a great idea!

    I'm stuck.  How do I add lighting to my living room so as to create
    a soft and warm feeling?  How does one learn about lighting (aside
    from reading existing notes in this file)?
    
    Gary

    Try the TIME-LIFE series.  I think they have a book on lighting
    or electrical work (which includes lighting).  Some indirect lighting
    will help give a soft feeling.
    
    DVC

    Replace your ON-OFF switch with a dimmer switch. This would allow
    you to control the amount of light in the room. 
    
    I just finished wiring a new addition and used a small paperback
    book available at Grossman's called "Electricity Simplified." I
    used about 500 feet of wire and wired all sorts of three way switches
    and outlets (even ground fault circuits). The book seemed to cover
    everything.
    
    Good luck with your project.
    
    regards,
    
    Lou
    

    
    
    	But did you get it inspected ? I just finished wiring my addition
    by one of those books and did what I thought was an excellent job.
    When the wiring inspector showed up he said the job was very neat
    and would work but I should call a real electrician who ripped it
    all out. Those books are great but they don't even come close to
    telling you everything you need to know.
    
    

    As 0.3 points out, those books don't tell you everything. You do
    need some common sense and ability. However, I did pass inspection
    because I was very careful to follow the National Electrical Code
    which is constantly referenced in the book I recommended. The result
    was that I did a $ 1,500 electrical job for $ 200 in materials plus
    my time!

GE will send you a number of books on lighting for free
(800 626-2000) - they are interesting and occasionally useful

    Since I bought my house 'half finished' (unfinished upstairs) 5 years ago
    I had the ability to do alot of fancy wiring for lighting/alarm/phones
    etc. In my front to back master bedroom I opened the ceiling up
    to be a semi catheral(sp?) ceiling and put in the biggest Velux
    skylight they sold. Where the ceiling slopes down to meet the wall
    in placed 'cove' lighting. (Time/Life idea?? I don't remember...)
                                     \ 
                                      \ sloping ceiling
                                       \ 
                                        |
                              |   (*)   |wall
   cove lighting              |    -    |
                              |  I___I  |
   long box w/                |_________|
   florescent light fixture             |  
   placed inside
    
    Picture the box mounted on the wall looking like a flower box w/
    a light sitting on the bottom. When lit the light is directed upwards
    bouncing off the ceiling giving a nice soft effect.
    I've also seen this done another way where the light is forced both
    upwards and downwards behind a wooden valance. Very pleasing and
    soft on the eyes.
                                             |     
                                      |   ___|
                                      | *-   |    
                                      |   ---|

    MArk

    The lighting stores now sell pink colored light bulbs.  Supposedly
    they don't really give off pink light but a very soft white light.
    
    -al

Several replies to this topic developed into a lively discussion that, 
unfortunately, diverged from the original subject and title of the topic. 
In the interests of keeping this conference useful as a reference tool, 
I have moved the divergent replies to a more appropriate place, namely
topic 583 ("Electrical inspection criteria"), reply 39.

I first obtained the consent of the moderators, and the permission of the
author of the reply that (innocently) started the digression.

    I just decided on recessed lighting for my kitchen remodeling job
    and have purchased 8 Juno recessed lights with black phenolic
    baffles. I was hoping there would be some installation instructions
    with the lights but there were none.
    I'm concerned about the placement of the light above the sheetrock
    ceiling. With the main body of the can resting directly on the top
    of the sheetrock, the bulb (flood 75w r30) lens is almost protruding
    from the bottom of the baffle. 
    Question is, what is the right method of installation for a recessed
    light. Should the can be directly above the sheetrock or should
    it be backed off some to allow the bulb to be more recessed. The
    socket in the unit is adjustable but is back as far as it goes.
    Also what does the R30 mean in the bulb type. The bulbs we got have
    a rather long neck. Is there a comparable bulb with a shorter neck.
    If there is this would allow me to leave the can where it is (directly
    above the sheetrock) and have the bulb more recessed.
    Any commments would be most appreciated.
    
    DS

RE:1500.0 

    R30 is a smaller version of a reflector style floodlight and yes it
    does have a shorter neck.  My kitchen downlights had an adjustment for
    the bulb type as well as an adjustment for the can;  However my lights
    the can was also inside another enclosure.  Make sure the unit you
    buy has a thermal cutoff, this is required by code for residence
    installations, also the type of unit you buy will determine whether
    it can have insulation packed against it or not.  The brand I bought
    was Progress Lighting.

    You also need fiberglass insulated wires between the units and the
    romex (usually plastic insulation). I wired a 1 amp diode to each
    fixture so they run at about 70% of their rated brightness [100
    watt gives about 70watt light]. They were still burning when we
    sold our California home after living in the house for 5 years.
     
    The R30 bulbs run $4 -$5 each.
    

    I've seen the electric eye type timers for lights/appliances that
    plug into them.  Has anyone seen an electric eye activated wall
    switch (for turning on my outside lights when darkness falls)?
    If so, where?  Do they have timers on them (only stay on for x
    hours)?
    
    In .0, it seems as though these sensors are on the outside.  Where
    are they located, on the lights themselves?  Are they special light
    fixtures?
    
    Thanks,
     Bill
    

I just bought front spots for my house at Channel for about $10.  They 
had an add-on box to the spots which sensed darkness - also had one 
which sensed movement.  these were like $30 or $50.

    True Value Hardware Stores sell heat-sensing motion detectors that
    can be installed in place of a wall switch or outside for turning
    on a light when someone gets within their range.  Two controls adjust
    light sensitivity (to not turn on the lamp in daylight) and length
    of time the light stays on after initial trigger (20 seconds to
    15 minutes).  They are often on sale for about $25.  I bought these
    instead of the flood-light ones mentioned in .2 since the sensor is
    independent of the light being controlled, they are cheaper, can be
    used indoors (indeed, can replace a wall switch), and I saw them
    advertised before I saw the units mentioned in .2.
    
    Dale

while we're on the subject... my wife complains that the hallway is
too dark at night.  One solution is a nite light, but there
are no outlets in the hallway.  Another solution is a lit-up wall 
switch, but the appropriate switch is actually an X-10 control (they 
don't make lit X-10 wall switches).  Of course, another solution is 
to turn on a light, but I was wondering if there were any neat 'light 
gimmicks' out there to provide low lite w/out AC power available.

    I've seen a battery-powered sound-activated light, in a Bradlees
    or K-Mart or similar Everyman Hardware Department.

    RE: .0
    You started this note by talking about electric eyes and timers
    which would have your lights on when you came home in the dark.
    With standard time back upon us, I'd love to find out about these.
    Can I get them at Spag's or Grossman's?  Will they break my pocketbook?
    
    Elaine

    re:.2
    
    I found at the Nashua NH Channel store exactly (well, close enough)
    what I wanted.  Intermatics (I think that's the company's name),
    maker of the plug in timers for lamps, appliances, etc, has come
    out with a timer that replaces a standard wall switch!  There are
    two flavors, one for single switch circuits ($15), and one for
    3-way switches ($28).  
    
    The timer is programmable for 24 hours.  There are 48 30-minute
    positions.  It is set up very similar to a dimmer switch - you
    rotate the dial to select the on-off settings when programming
    the timer, and you simply push in the dial to turn on-off the
    light manually.

>        Intermatics (I think that's the company's name),
>    maker of the plug in timers for lamps, appliances, etc, has come
>    out with a timer that replaces a standard wall switch!  
    
    I've had one for about 5 years now.  They're great.  I got it at
    Spags.
    

    re: .9
    Where at Spag's?  Electrical at the base of the ramp?
    

>        Where at Spag's?  Electrical at the base of the ramp?

    No.  
    
    Near the tackle counter.  On the other side of the rack where
    all the batteries are.

    

    They must have run out of room *at* the tackle counter!

If you're into timing lamps, outlet, wall switches, etc
why not consider an X-10 home control system?

R/S has the timer controller on sale for $25, and the individual 
modules are $13 each (can be found cheaper if you look).

Assuming individual timers cost marginally more than $13 each, you
make back the cost of the controller in a small amount of time, and 
have the advantage of programming from one spot, and expansion should 
you desire - it allows you to program each device with 2 on/off times
each of which can have a random offset associated with it.
its discussed somewhere else in this file (I think) and in 
ELECTRO_HOBBY

When I first bought an automatic switch, I chose Diablo because of its 
ability to dim the lights to half intensity. The clock was easy to set 
and so were the 8 on/off times. However, the life of the device was 
poor, so I suggest staying away from them althogether. The Intermatics 
(which I replaced the Diablo units with) appear to be more rugged and 
can also dim the lights if the correct model is purchased.

The Diablo was easier to re-program, but in the final analysis, it isn't 
here for me to re-program easily! It was a little cheaper as well. 
Probably why I bought them in the first place. I've learned my 
lesson...you get what you pay for.

    I've been using a Diablo unit for some years with no problems.

    I just installed a Flourescent lighting fixture in a closet and
    have a problem. When the room is cold and the light is cold it takes
    up to one to two minutes for the light to go on. After that it goes
    on in a matter of one or two seconds. I could take it down and return
    it to the store but if it's something simple I would rather fix
    it myself.
    
    Any suggestions?
    
    Thanks,
    Jack

    There's nothing wrong with the fixture.  Slow startig in even
    moderately cool weather is a characteristic of fluorescents.
    That's why they're never used outdoors north of the Mason-Dixon
    line.
    
    pbm
    

    I know that I can't expect "instant on", but is it normal for the
    light to take a full two minutes to light?
    
    Jack

                Yep. There are flourescents that are specially made for
        cold starting (it's in the fixture, not the tube), but if you
        use a standard fixture, then starting time in the realm of
        minutes (I've seen it take 5-6 at times) is perfectly normal.
                
                /s/     Bob

    You can buy cold weather flourescents but the price is MUCH higher
    both tubes and ballasts are different. I belive they are designed
    to work in temperatures as low -10F. Continued operation in low
    temperatures of fixtures not designed for cold weather will
    greatly shorten the life of the tubes and balasts. 
    
    -j
    

>    RE .8, I bought one such timer from Spag's in April. I got the fancy
>    electronic type with digital display. It died this last weekend.
>    It was kinda screwy for a while, running slow or fast and finally
>    making the light flicker. I removed it thinking there was

	I'm not sure whether mine is Intermatic or Diablo but a problem I 
noticed looked like a broken switch to me turned out to be not enough load.
I have mine running two coach lites and a pole light.  I couldn't get the 
lights to come on for anything and the display just showed screwy characters.

We had had a pretty severe thunderstorm and I figured it got zapped.  Digging
in a little deeper one of the coach lights was burned out, (before the storm,
one of those little jobs :-), both coach lites are 15 W by the way.  I looked 
at the pole lamp and it looked OK, checked the breaker fine, went back and 
checked the pole lamp bulb.  On closer inspection The bulb was full of water
and the element popped/glass cracked at the top when it got dripped on and the 
load of one 15W bulb was insufficient to run the switch.

	This programmable is nice but I wish it had somekind of battery backup 
for when the power failed so I wouldn't have to program it so often.  We have 
frequent power failures at certain times of the year.

	Randy

    Has anyone heard of these little things you put in a light socket
    before screwing in a bulb to extend the life of the bulb?
    
    I imagine they work by supressing the initial surge when the light is
    switched on.  They're supposed to make bulbs last for 5 years.
    

    yes, i've heard of them, but I'm not sure how they work.
    Anyone know the mechanics behind them ? Do they make the
    light a bit dimmer ?
    
    George
    

    There are two types. One is a thermistor type much like the negative
    temperature co-efficient devices used in tv sets. Initial power
    surge, they have a high resistance, as the device warms up, the
    resistance drops and you get full power. The other device uses a
    diode and operates your bulb at ~70% of full power; ie 30% dimmer.
    
    /cal

I have the diode type on two 150-watt outdoor floods.  30% dimmer sounds about 
right.  The floods are on a photocell and have been on every evening for over 
two years with no lamp failures yet.

One warning: don't screw the lamp in tight; just "snug it up" against the 
button.  Overtightening will crush the button and short the diode, giving you 
back what you had (normal brightness and normal lamp life).

							- craig

I'm in the process of doing some major lighting and have begun looking into
various types of fixtures.  In particular, I'm interested in the recessed type
which has been discussed numerously throughout this file.  I've just heard about
a new (I think) type called low voltage.  They basically run of a 12 volt 
transformer.  The advantages are that they take less energy to run and last
longer.  The disadvantage is $$$.  They appear to average around $100 per 
fixture.  I'm certainly not planning on getting any unless someone has some
good reasons.

For example, the literature stated that if you pay $.10/KW then in a single
year you would save something like $17 on 6000KW of electricity.  The only
problem is noone runs their lights that long.

comments?

-mark

    I would be a bit skeptical about the "less energy" statement.
    Light output is a function of power, power equals voltage times current.
    For the same output, if you lower the voltage you got'ta increase
    the current. If anything, I would expect transformer losses to
    decrease the efficiency of a low-voltage system. Anybody got figures
    that show differently?
    
    I always thought the advantages of low-voltage systems were:
    
    	o  Decreased shock hazard (safer and less expensive to run wires
    	   hither and yon for outdoor lighting)
    
    	o  Flexibility of bulb design (which, with an accompanying
           flexibility in reflector design, allows for greater variability
    	   in lighting patterns)
    

    I've seen alot of use of low voltage lighting used outside, such
    as along walkways, front entrances. Apparently when you run them
    over with the snow blower or lawn mower, the sparks and fireworks
    show isn't as good as with regular 110 volt stuff.
    

I think .0 may be talking about the quartz/hallogen low-voltage lights 
for indoor use.  They provide more light per unit of power because the 
bulb is more efficient than a standard edison bulb.

Personally, I think the fixture costs for the low-voltage lighting is 
artificially inflated, but if it's what you want, that's what it costs.

When I was looking at them, I found that although they were very bright 
at small distances and good for lighting special objects, they really 
didn't seem to be all that great for general lighting.  I haven't seen a 
fixture using them that spreads the light out well, and the drop off in 
apparent brightness is very fast.  The high intensity of the bulb makes 
it annoying if it gets into your field of vision, and the bluish cast to 
the light is more commercial than home-like.
						>>>==>PStJTT

    If you're talking about low-voltage interior lights the idea isn't
    new...my 30-year old Campanelli ranch has them.  Not sure what the
    advantages are (my husband is the technical brains of our family)
    but a couple of problems we've had are: (1) one of the relays is
    intermittent - acccess is not going to be fun since it's in the
    wall somewhere behind the kitchen cabinets; and (2) switches, etc.
    are hard to find and expensive when you do find them.  I still remember
    going from electrical supply store to store mumbling "Excuse me
    sir, do you carry single-pole double-throw momentary contact switches?"
    After that fruitless search I vowed never again and told him I wouldn't
    ask him to purchase feminine products as long as he NEVER EVER again
    asked me to go to another electrical supply store.
    
    Evelyn
    

I too would have thought it would be easier to run smaller wires, but the catch
is that the transformers are in the individual fixtures, so you still have to
run 110 to them.  I would have thought one might simply put a transformer in the
basement or some such thing like that.

-mark

    Thanks for .3 I have two floods over driveway and have been replacing
    floods every few months I'll try the diode route and thanks for
    the installation tip!!!!!

    
    Re: .5
    
    	If the transformers are in the fixtures and you still have to
    run 110, what are the benefits of these low voltage fixtures?  I
    thought that the benefit was pretty much limited to working with
    a lower voltage outdoors being easier...
    
    							-c

RE: .-1

Again, you have to be careful to state if you're talking about indoor or 
outdoor lights.  

The outdoor lights I have seen use a large central transformer to send
12v or 24v DC down the cables that you bury in your yard.  The theory 
seems to be that the 12v won't kill you as dead as 110.

Most indoor lighting fixtures seem to have the transformer built into
the fixture.  The reasons for using indoor lights are the high intensity
and color spectrum, not the ability to do low-voltage wiring in your
walls. 

I've never seen an indoor fixture that got power from a central
transformer, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.  A call to a 
lighting store could probably settle it.  ( There's probably some
obscure part of The Code the forbids indoor DC for lighting...) 

					>>>==>PStJTT

    Here's a way you could use regular, inexpensive fixtures.
    Is this against code, provided that you label it "low voltage" or
    some such?
    
    Get a hefty step-down transformer (24v) and mount it near your breaker
    box. Wire from there to your outside lights. Use normal fixtures
    in the lights. Screw in 150W bulbs. Ohm's law says you get the
    equivalent of a 30W bulb from them, plus they'd last forever...

re .8
You'll get dim red-orange lights with that method. The spectral peak will
move down towards red and infrared because the filamant is so much colder.

    Remember, that when installing low-voltage lites with a central
    transformer, the gauge of the wire is VERY important, as is the
    quality of the connections that are made along it's run.
    
    IT happens that the currents in these wires tend to be 10 times
    the current of 'normal' 120VAC lighting setups. hence, the larger
    wire is a very good idea.
    
    (By the way, this is EXACTLY the same types of discussions that
    went on years ago when the National POWER GRID was being formed.
    They opted for the HIGH-VOLTAGE grid rather than HIGH-CURRENT
    grid for the simple reason that it is much easier to transport
    HIGH-VOLTAGE than HIGH-CURRENT over any given distance.)
    
    I guess low-voltage lighting defeats this realization, but, for
    whatever reason, it is popular and very successful as long as
    good quality proper capacity wire is used...
    
    

    I have one of those lights that turn on and off when you touch them.
    Recently the light has been going on by itself.  Since this is the
    light next to my bed it can get really annoying.  Is this typical
    of lamps like this or is there a problem that I can fix.
    
    Thanks
    
    George

    Yes, this is typical of lamps like this.  Ours turns on when the
    washing machine or dishwasher cycles; friends of ours have one
    that turns on when the 'phone rings.  Best solution is to change
    to a conventional on-off switch.
    
    pbm
    

    	I've had one for about 6 years, we use to have trouble in our
    old house every time my next door neighbor keyed up his Ham radio
    equipment. 
    	Solution: Buy a new house.
        
    	Try to find whats causeing it to turn off and on. My guess is
    that it might be just to dry in your house. To much static electricity.
    
    					...Dave
    
    					

    My parents lamp used to go on whenever they used the portable phone.
    The lamp was a three-way so it would cycle between brightest to
    off each time they turned on the portable phone.  They fixed it
    (totally by accident) by plugging it in to another outlet.  Might
    have put it on the other leg of the 220V service.  Don't know. 
    
    bjm

    
    
        As most folks are finding out, touch on lights are more problems
    then there worth. They screw up TV reception and play havoc with
    good stereo equipment. If you've got fingers use them. 

    Our lamp turns itself on when there's a power surge (maybe once
    or twice a month, no big deal).  On the positive side, these
    lamps can be a godsend for people with bad arthritis or other
    physical disabilities.

    
    I have a three-way touch lamp - if it's left on the brightest
    setting for more than ten minutes, you have to unplug it to turn
    it off.
    
    Planning on "upgrading" to a hard switch in the near future.

We are about to enter the rough electrical stage for our kitchen
addition. It looks like we will be using a combination of track and
recessed lighting for the kitchen and dining areas, and need to pick up
any recessed lighting we will use soon (the electrician starts on the
28th--we hope). 

I have called around and obtained some information on the following 
four brands:

Juno    \ At Mid-city electric in Chelmsford and Lawrence, MA
Troy    /
Progress  at Ralph Pill in Lawrence
Lightolier at Nelson Powell in Haverhill

Above the island, we plan to use cans.  In the other area above
counters, we have to decide between track or cans, and cannot make up
our minds.   When wiring is included, the cost will be about comparable
(I won't be able to do this wiring job due to time constraints).  We're 
talking a lot of counter space requiring about 6 or 7 heads.  We plan 
to have alternate circuits so we can switch on one of the two sets if 
that's all we need.  We'll use dimmers too.  (Any biased comments on 
why we should choose cans or track would be welcome as well.)

The question is this:  the prices for these brands are roughly:

    Troy < Progress < Juno < Lightolier

Does anybody have any experience concerning relative quality of these 
brands?  We have a Juno track in the living room, and we are satisfied 
with the quality, but the brand is expensive. Troy is about 60% of Juno 
at the same store.  I know that Troy uses more plastic parts, but how 
important is that?  (I have looked at note 262.10 about Halo--how does 
that fit into this list?)

Any information on problems with brands, relative quality, etc. would 
be most welcome.

Thanks,

Alex

    	I've got 6 Progress P-7's installed in my kitchen and 2 P-7-TG
    in my soon to be bathroom.  They are only a year old but I've had
    no problems and they were relatively easy to install.  The P-7's
    are the standard recessed lighting cans and the -TG are recessed lighting
    with temp protection for direct contact with insulation.  I think 
    it is a good idea to use dimmers so that you can adjust the amount
    of light that you desire.
    	I like recessed lighting better than track.  I've got 8' ceilings
    but I still think the track has a cluttered look.  If I had 10'
    ceilings I might use track.
    
    				=Ralph=  

    
    	We used Juno track above the butcher block counter tob we put
    in as a breakfact bar.  The track and lights are very high quality.
    No plastic on them other then the black liner.  We use 75 watt flood
    lights in the three of them on a dimmer.  They've been in about
    a year and are great.  The lights are mounted on a pin that lets
    them swing roughly 200 degrees  side to side. Initially we didn't
    think this going to be useful, but it turns out to be handy to be
    able to adjust the light over the counter depending on what you're
    doing.  Marlboro Electric has Juno 40% off list.
    
    
    

How about as an addition to this note references on places to shop.  People may
not be aware that lighting stores like lumber yards give contractors discounts.
In the case of Marlboro electric, what is required is that you spend at least
$500 which on a project like a kitchen I'd imagine wouldn't be too hard to do.
They also provide free consulting service including a trip by their consultant
to your home!  Unless I hear of a better deal, I plan on using them.

-mark

Just talked to the folks at the lighting store in Chelmsford on Route 
110 (I don't remember the exact name, but they are connected with Mid-City 
lighting in Lawrence).  If you buy $500 at once, they extend 
contractor's discount at 50% off.  What's more, you can continue to buy 
more fixtures a few at a time for six months at the same 50% off.

The Juno recessed looked as good as the track that we have.  And the 
price (at 50% off) beats the Progress lighting at Ralph Pill. 

Alex

Sounds like I should check out Chelmsford...

Do any of these other places provide on-site design consulting?

One more note on Marlboro electric - after you spend your $500, their discount
is forever!

-mark

    Ahhhh, another problem solved by homework.
    
    Thought I'd let you know what fixed the lamp.  Dave in .2 was
    right on when he said he thought the house might be too dry.  I
    bought a humidifier about 2 months ago and at the time of this note
    hadn't gotten around to connecting it to the FHA furnace.  Soon
    as I did all problems with the lamp stopped.  
    
    Thanks for the help.
    
    

    I am having a bit of a problem with lights burning out after just
    a couple of months.  I recall hearing a theory that the power from
    the electric company varies and if one receives 125 V, it will cause
    bulbs to burn out faster than normal.  Apparently most service supplies
    closer to 115 V.  Is there some basis for this and if so are there
    bulbs available for higher voltages?
    
    thanks
    
    Bob (who is in the dark over this one)

    
    	Bob,
    
    	What timing.  I was going to add a note on the exact same topic
    this morning...  We recently (oh, last spring) bought a house and
    I've had to replace some of the bulbs.  No problem, I figured that
    the old bulbs were just "due".  Last night, though, the hallway
    light went out -- and I *know* that bulb was just put in by me no
    more than 3 or 4 months ago.  Even at 4 months, I'd have to be running
    that bulb for 8 hours a day to get to 1000 hours (which was the
    bulb's rating, if I recall).  Hmmm, come to think of it, with the
    early evenings (evenings?  What evenings?) here in the wintertime
    I just might be racking up that kind of time on the bulbs.
    
    	Its sort of like car headlights -- notice how they always seem
    to burn out in the winter?  Guess when you use them the most...
    
    							-c

get some bulb life extenders (buttons that sits between socket
and bulb)

You can also add a 1 amp/200PIV diode at your switch to drop the
voltage down by about 30%; bulbs will be dimmer but the bulbs
lasts almost forever). I have mine on a light sensititive switch
and the bulbs burn all night till daylight for the last 2 years.

/cal

    	Also keep in mind that bulbs take there biggest beating when
    turned on and off. A bulb will burn out faster if it is cycled a
    lot. Haven't you ever noticed that most bulbs will blow when you
    first turn them on as opposed to when they have been on for a while.
    
    
    					...Dave
    

    I thought about the diode approach and also have thought about just
    using a dimmer so the power comes up more slowly...even the cost
    of a good dimmer is cheaper than replacing these bulbs every 3 to
    4 months.  If it were just one or two it wouldnt be bad but at last
    count, I see 14 bulbs out and the house is new as of September.
    Either the quality control on bulbs is very bad or there is something
    else going on.  The dimmer approach appeals to me also because I
    can reduce the power consumption when all I need is enough light
    to get up the stairs or walk across a room.  
    
    I just found the reference that I was trying to remember..Consumers
    Reports March 1982
    
    	"Most light bulbs are designed for use on 120 volts.  If they
    	are operated on exactly 120 volts, they should provide the watts,
    	lumens, and average number of hours that are noted on the package.
    	Unfortunately, the electricity delivery to you home may not
    	be exactly 120 volts.  It may be 125 volts (my case), for example
     	which would make the bulbs filament burn hotter, providing more
    	lumens but a shorter life."
    
    They do go on to say that
    
    	"Dont be deceived by dimmer controls.  They save energy, but
    	not in proportion to the rate at which they diminish light output.
    	Dimmer switches can help to extend bulb life, however."
    
    
    I guess I answered my own question...I think I will opt with the
    dimmers because 1-2 bulbs (of the fancy type) will pay for the cost
    of the dimmer.  Mybe even a fancy one with a timer or darkness sensor.

    My experience seems to imply that bulbs in closed fixtures like
    the jelly jar fixtures used for porch lights,hall light,bathroom
    lights seem to burn out at a faster rate than those in open fixtures.
    Anyone else notice this trend?
    
    -j
    

    re .4
    
    How do you know you have 125 volts??  Do you have that accurate
    an AC voltmeter ??
    
    125 Volts sounds awfully high.  I thought electric companies these
    days saved money by producing more in the range of 90 - 105 volts.

    re .6
    
    I have a Radio Shack VOM that I used to get a reading off one of
    the plug outlets.
    
    Since the utility company here in Colorado Springs is city owned,
    maybe they dont worry about saving money...They just raised the
    rates 15% or so...
    
    re .5
    
    There does seem to be a high correlation with fixtures that enclose
    the lights...the basement lights last much longer.
    
    Installed a couple of dimmers this weekend and will report back
    if it helps the burnout problem.  I chose to use the type that require
    one to twist the knob to turn it on rather than a push type which
    would apply the entire current at once which would seem to negate
    what I am trying to do.
    
    
    Bob

      re: .6
    
      The higher the voltage, the LESS loss in the lines.  At the lower
    voltages that you mentioned, you run the risk of overloading appliances
    (motor driven) and possibly/eventually burning them out.  According
    to Richter's Wiring Simplified (If I get the numbers right), a motor 
    operating at 90% of it's rated voltage will only produce 81% of its 
    rated power. I don't think that electric companies would want the
    hassle/liability of producing lower voltages.  In fact, Shrewsbury
    electric sent a notice to its customers last summer warning that there
    was the potential of lower voltages during peak demands. 
    
    -Jim
    

RE: .7

Try the toggle-style dimmer (looks like a regular light switch).  It 
always starts at the lowest setting and has the added advantage that 
when you push to the fullest position it is fully on (as opposed to 
some dimmers that are never 100% on).  

The toggle from Radio Shack is made by GE, if I remember correctly.

Alex

    Check the brand of light bulb.
    
    Here in New England, we have a flood of Hungarian-made light bulbs
    selling for very low prices.  So far, the male threaded portion
    of the bulb has overheated and split on two of them in my house.
    The rest have been removed and trashed.
    
    The resulting high resistance may have been causing other problems.
    From now on, I stick with GE, Sylvania, or Philips (Westinghouse).
    
    pbm
    

    re: last
    
      How true.  I had bought a couple of boxes of those bulbs and they
    do not last long at all.  'Action Tungstram' seems to be the most
    common of these.  I think the rating on these is generally 750 hours.
    Maybe I missed the decimal point and it was 75.0 hours. No matter
    how cheap they are, they are really not worth it
    
    -Jim
    

    .4 is right on!  Dimmers do extend the life of a bulb by reducing
    the surge and thermal shock at turn on.  Bulbs typically draw 10
    times the normal current at turn on and this is quite a shock. .4
    is also right in saying that dimmers don't really save that much
    energy as they reduce the light output of the bulb without a
    corresponding reduction in heat output.
    
    The failure rate of some bulbs is usually considered to be V^5,
    which is a strong function of voltage.  Even a slight reduction
    in voltage will yield a substantial increase in bulb life.  Household
    voltages of 125 volts will reduce the life of a 120 volt bulb by
    19%.
    
    Nobody seemed to mention mechanical shock as a cause of failure.
    Having a lot of active kids, I've notices darkness is coincident
    with a loud "bang."  In that case, rough service bulbs are the
    solution. In fact, I found that I had to use rough service bulbs
    for my outside lights, as slamming the door sent enough shock through
    the wall to blow a bulb a week.
    

    
    Wow, 1920.* seems to be answering all my lightbulb questions!
    
    Re: .12
    
    	I was wondering why my front porch light burns out *very* quickly!
    Where do I get the "rough service" bulbs at?
    
    	Dimmers won't help me for my hallway circuit since they are
    controlled by three switches.  What can I do there?
    
    							-c

    
    	I went thru 2 cases of light bulbs in less than a year. I
    	knew there was a problem. Merrimack NH. I called PSNH and 
    	put a recorder on the line...you guessed it, Nothing.
    
    	I went to a flea market where some guy was selling all kinds
    	of weird bulbs ie 92, 71,52 watts etc. I bought several
    	cases of them....you know, guaranteed for 10,000 or 15000
    	hours etc. maybe they didn't make it, but they lasted for
    	a hell of a long time. I wish I had bought more.
    
    	.........anyway, it was NOT the weird wattages that got
    	the extra service it was the VOLTAGE rating. You need to
        buy bulbs with 130 volt ratings. The others are worthless
    	and are made to keep burning out. You can buy them at
    	electrical supply stores. The diodes also work but reduce 
    	the intensity by 30-40%...so get larger bulbs. Radio Shack
    	sells the "Bulb Extenders" in a package of 4 for about $4
    
    				___GM___
    
    	

    Re rough service bulbs
    
    I found some at Bradlee's.  GE Roughneck was the brand name.
    I use them in the garage door opener, which previously would
    croak one bulb about every two weeks.
    
    pbm
    
    

    Rough service bulbs come in several flavors and can be found at
    most decent hardware stores.  The flavors I've seen are:
    
    Rough service: glass, but with better filament support for shock
    and vibration.
    
    Pole lamps: plastic coated for protection against water
    
    Combination of rough service and plastic coating.  These are great
    for trouble lamps that tend to get knocked around and dripped on
    when working under a car.  (I've noticed that these are getting
    harder to find these days)
    
    I'm glad to see that this discussion solved someone's porch lite
    problem.  I had to use the trouble lite type of bulb as mine was
    dying from both the shock of slamming the door and being splashed.
    
    doug
    

RE: 3 hallway switches

You could still use dimmers, 1 for each switch.  You would still need the
switches, though...

Any body know where to get 'full spectrum' bulbs that have the same combination
of light wavelength output as the sun?

Jim.

    
    Re: .17
    
    >You could still use dimmers, 1 for each switch.  You would still need the
    >switches, though...
    
    	How would I wire those together?  I thought I once read where
    you absolutely couldn't have more than one dimmer controlling a
    circuit.  (And even with one dimmer plus another switch, which is the
    way my basement is wired, if the dimmer is all the way down, the other
    switch becomes useless.)
    
    								-c

    re 3 dimmers
    
    Go with a 20 - 25% larger bulb and add the Radio Shack (diode)
    bulb savers.  No wiring changes.

    re .18
    
    The way the dimmer package explained adding a dimmer into a circuit
    with multiple switches was that the dimmer replaced one of the switches
    and the other switches remained.  The one dimmer controlled the
    circuit and the other switches turned on at the level the dimmer
    was set at.  
    
    I have a circuit like this myself but havent installed the dimmer
    yet...The placement of my switches makes it possible to leave one
    of the switches dedicated to the dimmer (two upstairs within a couple
    of feet of each other so I can afford to dedicate one to the dimmer.)
    
    Bob

    I found the following in a GE lamp catalog
    
    "For any particular lamp. the light output and life depend upon
    the voltage at which the lamp is operated.  For instance, as
    approximations, the light output varies as the 3.6 power of the
    voltage and the life varies inversely as the 12th power of the
    voltage."
    
    From a graph that was included, if a lamp has a life of 1 at the
    rated voltage, operation at 5% less than the rated voltage will
    increase the life by about two times.  Operating the lamp at 5%
    over the rated voltage will decrease the life to one half.  An increase
    of 5% over a nominal of 120v is 126v.  This is not uncommon.  As
    indicated in .14 (?) using lamps rated at 130v should help the burn
    out problem.
    
    The effects of voltage on light output at not nearly as dramatic
    as they are on life.  At a 5% reduction in voltage belown rated,
    light output is at 80-85% of rated.  This should not be a problem
    in hallways, etc.
    
    Peter Duke
    

    Consumer Reports discussed this issue recently, and found that
    GE traffic signal bulbs were far more cost effective for long-life
    (not necessarily "rough duty") applications.  They can be obtained
    at better electrical supply stores.
    
    				Steve

    Just thought I would add some final thoughts. I replaced the Juno
    model lights I had bought with the "deluxe" Juno recessed light.
    This model had a double can (one cylindrical can surrounded by a
    square aluminum can). According to the manufacturer this was to
    allow extremely cool operation. After reading some of the horror
    stories about cracking bulbs due to excessive heat, I opted for
    these units. They are completely covered with about 10" of fiberglass
    isulation, and about 4 months later absolutely no problems with
    overheating. Also, the deluxe models proved to be deeper and allowed
    the bulb to be recessed more the way I wanted it.
    
    DS

    We went for the JUNO recessed cans (double can for cooler operation)
    from Marlboro electric. I forget the price but it seemed reasonable
    with the discount. I'm real happy with the lights. The baffles really
    cut down the light dispersion so make sure you plan for enough units.
    In our 10 x 16 kitchen we put in 8 ceiling lights, 1 sink light,
    and the stove hood light. The ceiling lights we installed evenly
    spaced  about even with edge of the counter top. I would go for
    the "deluxe" units with the double cans. Besides the cooler operation
    (if they are going to be covered with insulation), they are deeper
    and allow the bulbs to be recessed more (look better).
    
    ds

RE: .4

>                 Also, the deluxe models proved to be deeper and allowed
>    the bulb to be recessed more the way I wanted it.

Not exactly.  Juno make a single-wall existing-construction unit that 
is also deep (it is either the 121 or the 122, I can't remember which). 

For those not familiar with the units, it should be pointed out that the
Juno rectangular units (double wall) which can be used with insulation
are for new construction only (i.e., no ceiling sheetrocking/plaster,
just the joists).  On the other hand, the existing-construction unit
allows you to just cut a round hole and insert the thing and clip it in
place--as long as there is no insulation in the ceiling.  All of these
Juno units now have the thermal overload device. 

Alex

I just bought two 18" (undercabinet) flourescents from Channel home 
center - "USA light Co" or some such.  - both were defective (no 
light)

    I just installed 2 Sears 4 foot fixtures in the garage.  On sale
    for $9.99 each INCLUDING bulbs.
    
    Both worked fine.
    
    	-Barry-
    

    I have 16 of these type lights that I use for starting seedlings
    for my garden and exotic house plants they all have been in service
    16-20 hrs a day for the last 2 years no problems at all.
    I will admit that I dident think they would last when I bought them
    but they so far proven me wrong.
    
    -j
    

I've been installing lots of recessed lights over the last couple of weesk, some
in an existing ceiling and others in new ceilings.  Lately I've been wondering
what I would do if there was an electrical problem that required getting into
the box.  In the case of those that fit in an existing ceiling, no problem
since they're installed in such a was as to make them removeable.  In the case
of the others, it doesn't look like there's any easy way to get into them.  At
best you could remove the cylinder that surrounds the bulb and get one hand
over far enough to reach the junction box.

BUT - I can't imaging wy how one could ever service the thing if there was a
	problem.

So, I guess the question is, is there some obvious way to do this that I've
overlooked in which case I can sleep peacefully OR am I correct in assuming
there's no way in hell to get at the thing to service it?  If the latter is
true, which I suspect it is, why are people even allowed to install them since
the code requires that all boxes be accessable and secondly are there any
extra precautions you can take to reduce any possible problems (like soldering
the leads together)?

-mark

    
    All of the recessed lights I have worked with have a junction box
    attached to them so all you have to do to work on it is remove the
    baffle.
    
    >best you could remove the cylinder that surrounds the bulb and get one hand
    >over far enough to reach the junction box.
    
      It sound to me like you are installing a seperate junction
    box in a new ceiling where it will not be accessable (which is against
    the code).
    
    bjm
    

There is indeed an integral junction box, I was just wondering how easy it is
to get at them.  If you say you've done it, that certainly gives me some relief
although it's still a tight squeeze.  The one that really scares me is the small
unit which only has a 5" (or so) access hole.  There's no way I can imagine
getting two hands in there at the same time and I haven't yet figured out how
one would put on/remove a wire nut single handedly.

I assume we're talking about the same thing as follows:

			+-+	+------+
			| |	|      |
			| |	|      |
			| |	|      |
			| |	|  ||  |
			| |	|  /\  |
		    ----+-+-----+ /__\ +----
	
			 ^	   ^
			 |	   |
		      junction   light
			box	  bulb
	

-mark

    
    	We recently replaced the original ceiling light in our kitchen
    (read: ugly) with a nicer enclosed glass fixture.  (Not recessed,
    just a solid enclosed box of glass with trim.)  It looks so nice,
    we want to replace the upstairs hallway light with the same thing.
    However, upon opening the second box (bought, say, 4 months after
    the first), there is a big warning label that says:
    
    		"Do not use this fixture with wiring rated less
    		 than 75-degree C.  Most homes built before
    		 1983 have only 60-degree C wiring.  Consult
    		 a qualified electrician before installation."
    
    	Hmmm, my house was built in 1980.
    
    	How do I tell the temperature rating for my wiring?  (Frankly,
    I didn't even know that wiring *had* temperature ratings...)  I was
    already planning on using 4 15w bulbs instead of the maximum 4 25w
    bulbs which will cut down on the heat production.
    
    	Next question -- what about the kitchen light that is already
    installed using 4 25w bulbs?  Should I try to remove some of the
    top panes of glass to provide ventilation in the fixture?
    
    	Thanks!
    
    							-craig

    Most ratings I have seen were written right on the insulation
    either the outer romex cover or on the insulation on the seperate
    conductors.
    
    -j
    

    
    	Thanks, I'll pull the existing light down and take a look.
    
    	By the way, the date in my .0 note was incorrect.  I reread
    the warning this morning, and it said "houses before 1985", not
    "1983".
    
    							-c

This warning is also discussed (for fluorescent fixtures) in topic 843.

    we have been using the wire with the higher tempreture rating for
    about a year or so now. look at the jacket of the romex, if it says
    type"NM B", it's the right type. chances are from 1980 it's not.you
    can also tell by looking at the conductors themselves, they'll look
    shiny or clear plastic coated if its t.h.h.n. i think the warning
    pertains to new work only though.(i'm not sure on that.) it would
    seem unreasonable to me for the u.l. to require the new wire in
    all old installations.(i'll be looking into this deeper)

   To solve the problem over overheating the isolation, resulting in
    damaging it and finally risk for a short circuit, you may use a
    silicon tube you can put over the existing wire for 1-2 inches.
    Overhere it is a standard procedure now to supply the tubes for
    closed light-fixtures.
    
    regards, Henk
    

    I just replaced a flourescent bulb in my living room.  When I put
    it in, it seemed fine.  After it had  been on awhile, it started
    to flicker.  I pulled it out, turned it around, put it back in
    again, and the flicker stopped.  So, not knowing if it makes a
    difference, I assumed that I had put it in backwards at the start
    and that was the problem.

    However, a couple days later, it was flickering again.  I pulled
    it out, did not turn it around, put it back in, and the flickering
    stopped.  So, here are my questions:

    1) Is one end of the bulb different from the other, requiring
    that it be installed with a particular end near the starter?

    2) What causes flicker?  It appears (from my small sample) to
    occur only after the bulb has been on for awhile?

    Sid

    
     I had a flourescent fixture in my workshop that did the same 
    thing and after getting tired of reseating the tube I took the
    fixture down and tighten the metal clips that hold the tube and no
    more flicker. Maybe you just have a loose clip.
    
     -mike
     

    or a bad ballast...
    

    Or... the temperature in the room or ceiling area above the
    sheetrock is TOO COLD. COLD makes flouresent lights flicker...
    
    Why?  Don't know- but it does.
    
    Mark

>    Or... the temperature in the room or ceiling area above the
>    sheetrock is TOO COLD. COLD makes flouresent lights flicker...

    While I suspect it is rather cold there, I doubt that that is the
    problem, since there are two other flourescent fixtures that don't
    flicker.  The three fixtures are directly above the three large
    double hung bay windows that are far from tight.  Our house is
    kept rather cold in the winter.

    I think that the loose clips suggestion may be right on the money. 
    It hasn't yet resumed its flicker, so I haven't actually looked at
    it again.  I'll probably do so on the weekend.

    BTW, there is no sheetrock in my house, just cracking plaster :-)

    Sid

     re .-2 
    
    It would certainly seem plausable that the cold could cause contraction
    of the metal clips, thereby affecting either the connection with the
    tube, or wiring, thus resulting in a flicker?  
    

    I think it has something to do with the gas in the tube being cold.
    
    m
    

	RE: cold weather and florencents...

	There are special florencent lamps made for cold (read outside) temps.
	They are refered to as high output florencent lamps.  The balast is 
	different, the lamps are different.  They cost alot more also.  The
	gas being cold does prevent normal florencents from getting to their
	full brighness.  They always look dim.  I am not sure at what temp.
	normal florencents start working incorrectly.

	bjm

    Cold weather ballasts are availible for most all fixtures high output
    and regular. The ballast usually has a CW at the end of the part
    number on cold weather ballasts and is absent on regular types.
    High output are a breed of their own and being so dosent always
    mean that they have a CW rating.
    
    -j

    
    	Yesterday while my wife and I were sitting on our livingroom couch,
    Diana started talking about how lousy the lighting is in the
    livingroom.  Sad to say, this discussion is neither infrequent nor
    unfounded...
    
    	She would like for me to put up track lights.  I can really see the
    lighting benefits that they would provide, but I can also sense the
    horrible project monster lurking around the corner and snickering.
    You see, two problems immediately come up: 1) this room is on the first
    floor and is thus not covered by an easy-to-get-at-wiring attic, and,
    2) the ceiling is textured.  Not textured as in "I really like this
    texture", but textured as in "this will make patching holes and
    matching the texture really tough."
    
    	Can anyone give me a hint on how to snake the wires without,
    hopefully, having to make too many holes, or holes bigger than, say,
    "just enough" to reach my hand into?  I have nightmares that we'll end
    up with so many holes that it will be easier in the long-run to just
    strip all the texturing instead of trying to match the texture.  (Actually,
    my nightmare is ending up with a livingroom that has to be totally
    re-rocked, but I doubt that will happen. :-)  Thankfully, the one
    saving grace is that I should be able to line up the power-pickups on
    the tracks (yes, plural to add to the fun...) so that the wires won't
    have to cross through ceiling 2x8s on the way to the wall where the
    dimmers will be.  "Just" bring the wires over and down, cut the hole
    for the controls and bring up a new line from the distribution box.
    Sounds easy in theory, but I've never snaked wires behind finished
    walls before...
    
    	Thanks!    
    
    							-craig

    1) Unless you have nonstandard construction or some other access
    path, the ceiling cavity will be blocked from the top of the
    wall cavity by probably double 2x4 (or bigger) plates forming the top 
    of the wall framing.  "Over and then down" is very tough.  Even
    pros with all the snaking gizmos and tricks will cut a channel in
    the (visible) corner of the ceiling/wall joint to pass the cable
    through.  The idea of course is that it's small and easy to patch.
    
    2) Have you considered not even bothering with all this?  I had to do a
    "quick and dirty" track lighting system in similar circumstances to
    yours - I bought the cord and plug option. I ran it down the corner of
    the room and plugged into an outlet. Both the horizontal and vertical
    runs stretched between white hooks such that I had a very straight,
    very neat looking white cord run. 
    
    By the time the room was decorated you just don't see it anymore.
    Yeah it's not perfect but a LOT less work.  Snaking can be VERY
    frustrating.  There's always blocking or some unexpected piece of
    framing in an unexpected place.

    1) As an alternative to running bare cords around, you may want
    to investigate the use of "Wire Mold" type plastic wiring channels
    and boxes. They may provide a neater look for surface wiring.
    
    2) If you have a carpeted area on the second floor that is positioned
    over an interior wall in the room you want to wire, pull up the
    rug and cut an access panel in the subfloor. Find the joists
    exactly, and cut along the center of two of them where they cross
    the downstairs wall, with a circular saw set to the thickness of
    the subfloor, then cut across to form a rectangle (pry out the
    nails in the area first). With this access above and the basement
    below, you can do all your wiring without cutting into the room
    except for fixture holes. To close the upstairs hole, toe nail
    stud scraps across the joists to support the cross edges of the
    plywood, then apply construction adhesive around the edges of the
    plywood panel and fasten down all around the cuts with sheetrook
    screws to avoid squeaks.

    I am thinking of putting low voltage small strip lighting in my
    cabinets for accent lighting. I have a stained glass front, and I saw
    the lights in a kitchen store. The problem is, I can't find an
    electrical store that carries them (looking in Southern NH). The
    kitchen store will sell them to me, but I thought I'd save by going to
    the electrical supply places. Any ideas?
    
    					dr

Try Ralph Pill out on Rt. 101A.  Never been there, but looks like new store &
big.  My electrician uses them.

Steve

    Thanks for the tip, but I called and they don't have them. I have found
    a kitchen store in Brookline called Kitchen Resources that sells the
    lights. They are made by Task. I was hoping to get rid of the middle
    man and find an electrical supply store that carries them.
    
    				dr
    
    

    re .11:

    I think they have them at Watertown Electric in Watertown MA.

    There is an article in Popular Science this month on low voltage
    lighting strips, that lists many manufacturers. It would be worth
    reading. Progress is one of them and many electrical supply houses
    carry progress fixtures. Let me know if you can't get the article
    and I will xerox it for you. 
    
    							Chris

    I don't get PS and would like to see the article. Would it still be in
    stores? If not, I'd appreciate a zerox. I am in ZK for the next week -
    but am moving to Taylor Street next week. 
    
    				dr

    I purchased a low voltage set of lights for my walkway.  It came with
    8 lights, a transformer with timer and light sensor to turn light on
    and off automatically.  My question is,, can I add more light??? if so
    how many?  The documentation I got with the units doesn't cover this.
    
    
    Thanks Bruce
    

    
      See if the the unit specifies the power output , like 12V, 75W.
    If it does then all you have to do is find out the wattage of each
    bulb and add it up. Each bulb's wattage may be on the bulb or it
    may be included in the litterature you received with the set.
      I bet that you can't add any more lights without going over the
    max rating of the supply unit.
    
    					Kenny

    ref -2
    	It is the September issue, it should be out, send me your new
    mail stop if you want a copy.
    
    							Chris

    Thanks - please do - my new mailstop is TAY1-1/3C.
    
    				dr

    How do you convert watts to CP (candle-power)?  I have several sets
    of LV lighting, one has 12 watt bulbs, one has 15CP bulbs.  My idea
    was to replace the 12W bulbs with 10W and thus enable the addition
    of more fixtures.  Near as I can tell however, all automotive 12v
    bulbs are rated by CP rather than Watts.
    
    The conversion looks like perhaps 1.5 CP = 1 W.  This make sense?
    
    Dave

    There's no direct conversion, because it depends on the efficiency
    of the bulb.
    
    You can figure out watts with an ammeter and your car battery;
    watts = volts X amps. (I believe these are 12V bulbs..)  You can't
    use an ohmmeter, because the cold resistance of the bulbs is much
    lower than the hot resistance (keeping you from using 
    watts = (volts^2)/ohms
    
    ...tom

    Oranges does not equate to apples.  Watts represents power consumption,
    candlepower represents light output.  The relationship will vary
    with the efficiency of the conversion from electricity to light.
    
    pbm
    

    ref .20
    
    Donna,
    	The copy is on its way.
    					Chris

	When we were shopping for lighting for the new house....
	The salesperson had a reference manual depicting the
	"lumens" (sp) of light for each given fixture.  Perhaps
	you can get that info from your local lighting store.

    re:25 - thanks Chris!
    
    			dr

    I just replaced my kitchen light - one of those round flourescent
    lights - it worked fine, but I redid the kitchen,so... - I replaced it
    with a 25 x 25 square light with two horse flourescent lights inside
    the fixture. Almost immediately, it would flicker. Not constantly, but
    every 5 minutes or so. I think that it is on the same line as a freezer
    in the basement and when the compressor cycles, I get a flicker. Does
    this sound right? We plugged in a popcorn maker a few days later and 
    the light dimmed immediately, so I figured the freezer was indeed the
    culprit. If so, then how can I isolate the light? If not ,then what??
    My previous light did not have this problem. Any ideas out there???
    

I'd like to know if it's just me, or if anyone else suspects a global
conspiracy to get us to buy more lightbulbs.

I have tried every brand and am still replacing bulbs at the rate of 1-2 a
week.  During the past several months I casually mentioned this perception to
several friends and social acquaintances and the majority of them said "Yeah,
you know, I've noticed the same thing!"

Or could this be traced to some problem with my electrical feed, and if so,
what else should be happening as a result?

Pete

    If you live close to a power station, or if you are near the beginning
    of the "feeder" your voltage may be as high as %10 , over the mean
    (110 volts) whereas lightbulbs are rated for only 110 v. the increased
    voltage "kills 'em a lot faster". If that is the case, you need to buy
    long life bulbs (fillaments designed for 120 to 125 volts).I have heard
    this story many times, and the common denominator usually is the
    increased voltage (I believe the allowable limits for the Elec. Co.
    is +/- %10 ). A good ole voltmeter will answer the question. 

    My grandfather is loveable, but a little strange.  He keeps records
    on everything.  Anyway, the light bulb in the lamp over his reading
    chair is (drum roll) 20 years old.  

    
    
    RE. .0  Also if your lamp/light is in a traffic area where it
            can be bumped/jolted, it can cause a microscopic vacuum
            leak which will significantly contribute to the death
            of your bulbs.  (make sure they aren't getting bumped)
    
    
    RE. .2  Has your grandfather used the lamp in 20 years??
            (only joking, could have been changed without him knowing
             unless he dated stamped the thing)
    
                                   Mark
    

The life expectancy of a light bulb is very dependant on the voltage.  The
higher the voltage, the shorter the life.  I've read somewhere that the life
expectancy is inversely proportional to the 12th power of the line voltage, if
so, a small change will make a big difference.  The average voltage in the US
is 117 volts (re .1, 110V is definitely on the low side) so see if you can
get someone with a voltmeter to measure the voltage.  Anything over 120V
is too high and is probably what's causing the problem.

-Mike

    Re: .0
    
    	How many lightbulbs do you have and how long do you leave them
    on for?  With that info, you could calculate roughly how many hours
    you're getting out of each bulb.  Most bulbs are rated at around 750 to
    1000 hours which sounds like a lot, but...  Lets say you keep two
    outdoor lights on all night long.  Here in the New England winter, that
    means around 25 hours per day.  ;-)  Ok, lets say 14 hours instead. 
    Each bulb should only last for around 50+ days (assuming the 750 hour
    level) which, with my two outdoor lights, means an average replacement of
    one every 3-4 weeks.

	And that is, of course, only for the two main outdoor lights.  Add
    to that the bulbs in the kitchen, living room, hallway, etc., etc. (less
    hours per day each, but many more total bulbs) and its a rare moment
    when every bulb in the house is working!  Even getting the full 750
    hours, I *still* can feel like I'm replacing a bulb every time I turn
    around in the winter -- because I am!
    
    								-c

    	I've been told (but haven't actually verified) that a bulb left
    on continuously will last longer than one that's turned on/off a
    lot. Maybe the constant heating and cooling takes its toll on the
    bulb filament. Sounds logical anyway.
    
    	Also, if the line that the lamp is connected to also has a 
    large appliance connected to it, it could be subject to some large
    voltage spikes (sounds like I just had this conversation ;-) which
    may take the bulb out prematurely.
    
    	The above is in addition to what's already been suggested.
     
    	If you live in NH and have the same power company I do, you
    don't need to have strange wiring to get some healthy voltage 
    spikes. The electric co. supplies them at no extra charge ;-)
    
    	Ray

    BTW - Question: How many programers does it take to screw in a light
    bulb ?
    
    Answer: None. It's a hardware problem ;-)

    1)  It would make sense to me that a bulb would last more HOURS if
        you burned it continuously, but probably it will last considerably
        more DAYS if you turn it off when you aren't using it, if you
        get what I mean.  
    
    2)  I should have told you that my grandfather is very tight with his
        money and only turns on the light when he is actually reading and
        it is dark.  So that is probably no more than 1/2 hour a day. 
        Let's say 100 hours a year, that's 2000 hours.  Within reason and
        my assumptions about his usage may be wrong.
    
    					- Vick

Geez, you folks are fast.  I checked the file this morning, and 7 replies 
later...

This must be a popular topic.  The previous note has 35 replies.

Paul

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Paul [Moderator]

Well, it all started with a couple of those cheapie flourescent
lamp fixtures that you buy in the hardware store for $10 or so.
They worked perfectly for about 3 years, then a couple of months
ago the tube on one stopped working.

I went out and bought a new tube, but that didn't work, so I took
the lamp apart thinking I would "replace the ballast"  -- that
great cure-all for flourescents.  Well, the blasted thing didn't
have a ballast, just a couple of lousy pc boards with electronic
junk.  So I wrote the fixture off and took the second fixture
from its place in the garage and installed it.

The second one worked for about a month, then went south too.  So
I brought another fixture in, this time not one of the cheapies,
but one that has a real ballast.

The problem is that this lamp has a pinkish light from the tubes,
rather than the cool white that the cheapies had, so I swapped
the tubes.  But it wouldn't light with the new tubes in.  So
after some experimenting, I found that the only tubes that would
work were the ones that were already in it.

Now, I thought all tubes are the same; they were labelled the
same -- the only difference I found was that the ones that worked
had black end caps, and the ones from the cheapie fixtures had
silver end caps. Obviously, very significant.  What's the
difference between these lamps?

    Certain flourescent bulbs are designed only for preheat circuits, in
    other words in fixtures with starters (the little aluminum cans).
    
    Your low-cost "shop light" probably does not have a starter.
    
    Other bulbs (sometimes called rapidstart, although that may be a trade
    name) don't need a starter.  Many bulbs sold these days will work in
    either kind of setup.  The bulb hopefully is labeled as to what kind of
    fixture it requires.
    
    By the way, the most expensive flourescent fixtures actually use
    "electronic ballasts" (not really ballasts at all) to lessen power 
    requirements and reduce the amount of generated heat.  I've heard that 
    there are "cheap" electronic ballasts and good ones, though.
    
    __Rich

OK thanks Rich.  I gather from your reply that the end cap color
has nothing to do with the start type.  I looked at the "good"
light and did not see a starter, and of course, the cheapo didn't
have a starter either.  I want to look the lights over again,
in the light of your note.

Does anybody have any experience using EDISON recessed lighting fixtures,
that are sold by Somerville Lumber?  They look like decent units, and they
are 25% off this week. I need to buy about 6 for a kitchen remodeling.

Any comments on quality, problems found...

Thx Steve

    Just installed two during my kitchen remodeling.  I have no prior
    experience with other brands to be able to make a comparison, but these
    worked fine.  The instructions are a bit skimpy, but it's not exactly
    rocket science to install them.  Besides, who reads instructions?  8-)
    
    BTW, the bulbs for these babies are $4.00 apiece!  If I were GE, I'd
    give these fixtures away.
    
    They do look nice, though, and really concentrate the light where you
    need it.
    
    Bob
       

    They are actually somewhat better than average, but you gotta watch out
    - track fixtures and tracks are not necessarily interchangeable among
    manufacturers and Edison is at least the second brand of track lighting
    they've carried.
    
    I used to always buy Lightolier track lighting because I knew the
    company would be around and the stuff had widespread availability. But
    you pay through the nose for the fancy design work.  Edison track fixtures
    are more utilitarian in appearance (but still fine) and their quality
    is better than Lightolier.  At half the price per fixture I guess I'll
    take the chance that Edison won't be around if I want another track
    fixture. 
    

    The discussion on noisy fluorescent lights reminded me that I had meant
    to include the following excerpt from the JAN '90 issue of The Family
    Handyman into this notesfile.  It is in response to a question on
    removing humming noises from fluorescent fixtures:

    ............The annoying hum you're hearing is a mechanical vibration
    from the magnetic forces in the ballast (or transformer) located inside
    the fixture.  It's typical in all fluorescent lights although it does
    vary in volume from one light to another.
         Check the label on the ballast in your fixture.  It should give a
    sound rating (determined by laboratory and manufacturing standards)
    from "A" to "F" -- with "A" being the quietest.  If yours is rated "B"
    or lower, replace the ballast with one rated "A."  ..............

    PS.  This is the first I ever heard of a sound rating on lighting.
         Sure sounds like something to check when choosing new light fixtures.

    -JFK-

    I looked at the Edison stuff at Home Depot last nite (need to by
    24 recessed lights for the basement remodel project!) and was not
    impressed with the quality and value for price.
    
    Good units - Lightolier and others sold by electric supply places
    (here in NJ) were about the same price ($30-$40) and had thermal
    protection, baffles and nicer surrounds.
    
    	-Barry-
    

        My wife and I moved into a new house (brand-new, we purchased it
        from the builder) about 5 months ago.  We've occasionally
        noticed some flickering lights before, but today the lights have
        really been acting up.

        Various incandescent lights have been flickering.  They flicker
        for a few seconds then stop.  Sometimes the same fixture will
        flicker a minute later, sometimes not.  We have noticed it on
        several sets of lights, some wired into the house and some
        plugged into outlets.  However, we haven't noticed it on all
        lights in the house, and have noticed no problems with TV,
        radio, fluorescent lights, stoves, terminal, modem or anything
        else.  We haven't had any problem with clocks running slow or
        losing time, even clocks plugged into the same outlet with
        flickering lights.

        We haven't been able to correlate the flickering with any
        electric events in the house.  The only item that we can think
        of that would turn on and off without us being aware of it is
        the electric hot water heater, but I hope it isn't coming on as
        often as the lights are flickering.

        Any ideas what could be causing the flickering?  Is there any
        potential for this to be a serious problem that needs to be
        addressed quickly?  Any suggestions on how to investigate or
        solve this problem?

        [Don't bother suggesting I contact the builder, the warranty is
        worthless.  The builder did a reasonable job of building houses,
        but didn't handle the financial side quite as well.]

        					Thank you,
        					B.J.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I want to put a 4' shop light in my basement. I saw one that has a
    power cord attached. On the box it says not to cut the cord. Why?
    I'd like to wire the light to a switch. Do I have to add a junction
    box with a receptacle to plug the light in, and then run the box off
    a switch? 
    
    Don
    
================================================================================
Note 1047.14               Help with Wiring (lighting)                  14 of 18
CADSYS::RICHARDSON                                   10 lines   2-OCT-1989 17:18
            -< I dunno, but the extra outlet comes in handy anyhow >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I dunno, either, so I had an outlet put on the workshop ceiling, right
    next to the shop light, and plugged the thing in there, with a switch
    mounted on the wall next to the workbench.  It is actually sort of
    handle to have an outlet up there sometimes, since a cord plugged in
    there doesn't run across the bench or the floor where it might be in
    the way of whatever I am working on, or get tripped over.  The shop
    light came with a very short cord, maybe all of two feet long, with a
    grounded plug on the end.
    
    
================================================================================
Note 1047.15               Help with Wiring (lighting)                  15 of 18
TFH::DONNELLY "Take my advice- Don't listen to me"   12 lines   2-OCT-1989 22:54
                   -< swinging lights should be plugged in. >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
re .13:

>    power cord attached. On the box it says not to cut the cord. Why?
>    I'd like to wire the light to a switch. Do I have to add a junction

my guess would be that the reason is associated with the chains.  if you
hang the light from the chains it should probably be plugged in as in a
movable type appliance.  on the other hand, i have opened those lights up
and hardwired them in with a switch, but i also screwed the light to
ceiling permanently. 

craig
================================================================================
Note 1047.16               Help with Wiring (lighting)                  16 of 18
CSSE::CACCIA "the REAL steve"                        18 lines   3-OCT-1989 09:42
                       -< can you say forseable misuse? >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Why the short cord? Cost reduction, of course. They save upto $0.15 per
    foot of cord depending on the type and the supplier. 

    Why not cut the plug off? U.L. listing or recognition would be
    invalidated. So what you say? Well that really is no problem, all that
    means is that the unit they tested was safe for a customer to use if it
    was used in the exact manner described by the vendor and in the exact
    condition submitted. 

    The vendor KNOWS, beyond any shadow of a doubt, that with the cord so 
    short someone is going to cut off the plug and do strange things with 
    the line cord. So- to protect themselves against a lawsuit from a handy 
    dandy DIYer who burns down the house (or worse) because he wires the 
    light wrong, They put a warning label on the fixture to meet U.L. 
    requirements and satisfy their obligation to warn. (silly tort law
    legal jargon)  
================================================================================
Note 1047.17               Help with Wiring (lighting)                  17 of 18
BOSTON::SWIST "Jim Swist BXO 224-1699"                9 lines   4-OCT-1989 09:01
                      -< Yeah, but it's a short FAT cord >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    In my miscellaneous electrical junk box I'll bet I have a dozen
    one-foot cords from workshop flourescents I've hard-wired over the
    years.   They make good replacement cords for power tools (where
    you usually use an extension cord anyway).
    
    If they're trying to save money, why are these cords 16/3 wire for
    a 2x40 watt fixture?  That's about 3/4 amp draw on wire that can
    take 10 amps.  Thinner and longer would cost the same and be much more
    cost effective.
================================================================================
Note 3686.0                 Wiring A Florescent Light                  2 replies
SALEM::PAGLIARULO_G                                  13 lines  26-JAN-1990 12:24
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        I have several florescent lights that I want to hardwire in the
    cellar.  The lights are all built to be plugged into outlets and
    switched on via a pull switch.  These are lights to be used over
    specific work areas so although they will be part of the cellar
    lighting circuits they will still be turned on by the pull switches.
     I remember someone telling me that if the light has a plug you can't
    just cut the plug and hardwire the light into a circuit.  Anyone
    know about this?  If true does this apply only if you plan on using
    a separate switch (ie. wall switch) to turn the light on?

    Thanks,
    
    George
================================================================================
Note 3686.1                 Wiring A Florescent Light                     1 of 2
POLAR::MACDONALD                                      9 lines  26-JAN-1990 12:35
                        -< Follow the Electrical Code >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The basic ruling is that if you are going to hardwire to an electrical
    outlet or box, you can't use the standard cord that comes with a plug
    on it -it's not legal and it's not smart. If you are going to wire in-
    side boxes and walls, follow the electrical code and use 14/2 or some-
    thing similar intended for the purpose.
    
    The smaller wires that come with lamps, appliances,etc., does not meet
    the requirements for house wiring, is frail, can cut easily, chafe, etc
    and expose you to serious risk.
    

    Could it be the compressor for your frigerator? or well pump? or window
    air conditioning unit or other motor which cuts on and off periodically.  
    When electric motors start, they draw more than when running.  This
    short term draw can cause valleys of power for other applicances on the
    same circuit.  Check to see if all the lights are on the same circuit
    or differenct circuits.  What else is on that circuit.  Also might want
    to check 1920 for information about Light Bulb burnout.

Just in case you folks are confused about why this is reposted, particularly 
since there was a new note entered last week asking this which was writelocked:

Bruce and I talked about the merits of writelocking notes to point to 
digressions that are not apparent from base note titles, and we agreed that it 
really doesn't make sense.  For one thing it takes ridiculous amounts of 
moderator time if we want to do it, for another no one ELSE can find the 
discussion either.  From now on we'll only write-lock notes if there is a 
reasonable base note to point to.  If we're feeling particularly helpful - or
if we get a complusion to find that old discussion that we KNOW is in here :^)
perhaps we'll put a pointer to the digression in the new, appropriately
titled note so that future noters can find the old digression too. 

Just another example of ever-improving moderating in action. :^)

Paul

    Buy one of those inexpensive outlet testers at Radio Shack (not great
    but adequate for the job) and test your outlets. A poor ground should
    show up on everything (TV etc) but might not. A poor ground can be,
    miswiring at the box, corroded ground outside at the meter, or possibly
    bad connection at the nearest transformer. Check with your neighbors.
    If you live in a rural area, loads from other locations (nearby farms)
    could also cause the problem. 
    I lived in a dairy area and every day at milking time the cows would
    crowd around the feed lot and rub against the power pole. The wires
    were close enough together to touch. It flicker the lights for miles.
    It took the electric comp. several weeks to find this.

Find out if all the lights that you have problems with flickering are on the
same circuit.  Do this by shutting off the switches in the breaker box one
at a time if you don't have a proper circuit map of the place.

Does the light get dim once for a short period of time and then resume
normal brightness?  Or does the light get irregularly dimmer/brighter for
a period as if someone was playing with a dimmer?  Do any of the
incandescent lamps get momentarily brighter than normal?

The first (and last) are usually a motor kicking on somewhere as mentioned
previously.  Maybe at a neighboring house if the power distribution system
is poor (like my father's cottage, 12 places on a single transformer and he's
3 poles away from it)  The second may be a corroded contact in the breaker
box, junction box or meter box acting up.  This could be dangerous.

-Mike

    This may sound like a frivolous reply, (  *8)   )  but have you checked
    to see if the bulbs are going bad?
    
    It's a possible problem even in a new house, maybe they got cheap
    lights to start off with...
    
    Good luck
    
    Patrick

    
    My lights flicker/dim everynigh around 9-9:15 pm. Boston Edison doing
    something. My whole neighborhood has the same experience so it is
    the sys not the house.

        Thank you for all your replies and mail messages.

        This weekend I played around and discovered that the lights that
        were flickering were on at least three different circuits.  In
        the process I made sure that all circuit breakers were solidly
        set and making good contact inside the breaker box.

        Now I'm going to wait to see if the flickering returns before
        taking any further steps.  I like the suggestion about asking
        neighbors if they have the same problem--I wouldn't want to tear
        apart my house only to discover the problem was down the street.

        					Thanks again,
        					B.J.

re.                  <<< Note 3693.6 by ULTRA::HERBISON "B.J." >>>
                        -< I've taken the first steps >-

Maybe this'll help?

I had a similar problem;  flickering and slow motors on  all circuits at random
times.  I EVENTUALLY called in Public Service.  They put a line monitor on each
side of my mains outside the house.  They saw that the overall line voltage was
too  low  -  much less than 100V.  They told me that all they  did  was  select
different taps off  the  transformer.    The transformer was new - replaced one
blown away by lightning.    I'll  just  have to believe them since the problems
appeared right after the new  transformer  was  put  in and went away when they
were done.  Wish I had  called them right away instead of playing detective for
a few months.


Dave

We had the same problem after the City of Worcester "upgraded" us to a
plastic meter. They forgot to jumper across the meter to get the ground
onto the street side of the meter. I've heard that corrosion on the 
ground connection can cause it too.

    Likely the reason for the warning not to cut the powercord on a
    portable fluor.light is that the power cord is special resistance
    wire. This is a replacement for the transformer. Check the temperature
    of the wire it should get warm. So leave the cord on it.
    
    rg. Henk
    

    Ref -1, Huh?, All the cords I have seen were 16-3 SJ cord, nothing
    special about it.
    								Chris

    Similar problem after a storm turned out to be the ground wire coming
    loose between the street and the house.

    
    I've install a few of those "department store special" floresent
    4' shop lights in my basement. They come with a 12" electric 
    cord, which plugs into an extention cord. I'd like to wire them
    into the house electric, but the directions say not to. Something
    about cable resistance. 
    I would think an Extention cord would offer more resistance than
    the house wireing. Can anyone offer any advice on this?
    
    Steve

    re-2
    
    	What?? Since when did adding resistance to a circuit increase
    the out put voltage. Unless the resistance is that of a transformer
    coil.
    
    				CB

I think these things have normal power cords for 2 reasons:

1) I suspect the UL approval of a plug-in device is easier to get than approval
   of a permanently wired fixture.

2) These things are designed to be hung, and a hanging permanently wired fixture
   probably needs special wire that would raise the price beyond the Kmart $9.99
   price range.

They probably tell you not to cut the cord to cover their @$$ from the person
who cuts the cord, wires the fixture incorrectly, and burns their house down.

-Mike

    I figured it was the same deal as the electric drills that come with a
    one-foot-long cord.  I put one of those el-cheapo fluorescent lights
    over the workbench in our basement, and for years I had an extension
    cord running over to an outlet.  I finally got someone to wire an
    outlet in the ceiling next to the thing, with a wall-mounted switch to
    turn it on with - very convenient compared to a pull-chain or to
    plugging in the extension cord at the outlet, since I can easily find
    the switch in the dark and turn the thing on.  It also turns out that
    the ceiling-mounted outlet, now that it is there, is a useful place to
    plug in some tools, since it means the cord does not run across the
    floor or over the bench.
    
    BTW, I did *not* buy a drill with a uselessly short cord - mine has a
    12' cord, with is usually plenty for indoor stuff.  I think the
    tiny-cord models are made by extension-cord manufacturers!
    
    /Charlotte

    In my case it is a portable fluorescent light with about 10 ft of cord
    the light is very slim and no transformer.
    The cord has an additional function to start the light, so cutting 
    or changing the cord will likely disable the light. Also this cord
    gets warm.
    
    rg. Henk
    

    
    	I have a question on the Hunter brand of track lights.  My project
    requires several of the 4 foot extension pieces and I'd like to know
    how long they really are.  (They are on order, but I'd like to start
    the installation with what I have and their length is critical to the
    proper placement.)  The problem is that the track pieces in the "4 foot
    track kits" that I've bought are actually 45 inches long.  I've called
    Hunter twice now with this question and have gotten two, conflicting,
    answers.  (And neither person was aware that the track in the "4 foot
    kit" is not really 4 feet long, so right there I'd question their answers
    unless they actually measured one -- which neither person could do.)
    
    	If anyone has used these extension tracks, would you please tell me
    how long they really are?  45 inches or 48?
    
    	Who knows, maybe my metal measuring tape has just stretched over
    time... :-)
    
    								-craig

	Re: .10

	Well, the "4 foot" extension tracks came in, so I'll answer my own
question for the benefit of anyone else using them.  Turns out that they *are*
also only 45 inches long.

								-craig

I am planning the lighting for my garage/workshop (two separate rooms).
I am planning to use 4' flourescent fixtures.  I have two concerns.

1)  Arrangement of lights.  The workshop is about 14x22, and I'm
planning to center the fixtures so that the walls are 5' away from
either end of the tubes.  Is this going to give me dimly lit walls?
Should I count on having to use task lights to work at benches or
whatever near the walls?  Do you use task lights?  Do you have
flourescent fixtures that are far from the walls endwise?

2)  How much light should I plan on per square foot?  I plan to use
standard 40W tubes.  I'm currently trying to arrange things so that
I can start with one tube per 60 sq ft (not counting task lighting)
and increase that as high as one per 30 sq ft if I want to.  How
much light does your work area have?

	Thanks,
	Larry

PS -- I didn't find anything in the directory on how much light to provide.

    Larry,
    
    Like .1, I find that about 2 watts/sq ft (fluorescent) is a good
    number.  I would recommend using incandescents for task lighting around
    power tools, since fluorescents can produce a stroboscopic effect. 
    This can make a spinning saw blade appear to stand still, with obvious
    safety implications.  This doesn't occur with incandescents.
    
    Bob

    Larry,
    
    
           If you plan to do any finishing work such as staining or sprying
    of lacqure, you best have a lot of lighting. You cant see imperfections
    of finishing (re-finishing) in dim light.....
    
    
    
    Matthew....
     

    
    
    	...if you plan on spraying alot of laquer, you'd better enclose
    	the lights amoungst other things. Laquer is extremely combustible.
    
    	Gary
    

another concern is room temperature; here in Colorado, it gets
down in temperature so the garage lights are dim in the winter. I
have swing arm lamps that I use between the different power
tools. (Also, the lamp shade becomes a nice hand warmer when it
gets too cold.)

cal

    You'll probably want lights directly over any workbenches or
    power tools.  If the lights are behind you as you're working,
    you cast a shadow; if they're in front of you, you get glare.

    Lower wattage  bulbs  may  be possible now that there are a lot of
    incandescent to flourescent bulb adaptors. You get the same amount
    of  light (but perhaps a "cooler" color) and draw less power. I've
    never  used one myself, but I've heard generally good things about
    them.

--David

Unfortunately, most of the flourescent replacements for incandescent bulbs
are much larger than a standard incandescent, and won't fit in ceiling
fixtures.  Also, many are designed to be used only in a vertical orientation.

But where you can use them, I agree, they are great.

				Steve

    Recently (6 months ago) I installed 2 pair of flourescent lamps in my 
    kitchen- one pair on top of the wall cabinets, and the other pair just 
    beneath the wall cabinets, to illuminate the counter tops.  Each pair 
    of bulbs is controlled by a separate switch, and is hard wired (no plug)
    
    I've come across a problem over the last month or so with one of the
    bottom lamps.  The first symptom:  it was slow to come on.  a few taps
    fixed that.  finally it wouldn't come on at all, so I replaced it with
    a new lamp which worked fine for about 3 weeks.  Then it went out,
    permanently (tapping it wouldn't help). I tried replacing the bulb,but it
    burned out IMMEDIATELY (zap).  No switch in the fuse box was triggered,
    however, and the other lower mounted lamp (on the same wall switch) 
    continues to work fine.
    
    Any ideas? 
    
    Thanks,
    
    Helen

    Sounds like the ballast in the light fixture.  Happened to me with a
    fixture I bought from Somerville Lumber after about 5 months ago.  They
    replaced it along with a new bulb.  (It had a 3 month warranty)
    
    It's likely that your fixtures also have a 3 month warranty.  Ignore this
    and bring it back anyway.  If they give you any grief, use the phrase
    "implied warranty".  Many states (including Mass) have implied warranty
    laws. 
    
    Bob

    Is the ballast the same as a condenser?  (I have a spare condenser)
    
    
    not an electrician,
    
    Helen

    I suspect the "condenser" you describe is probably a starter (small,
    round can with two tabs on top, labeled something like FS-40 (or some
    other #). The ballast is a much larger, usually dark colored box,
    inside the fixture, with wires coming out of both ends.
    
    Eric

    A flourescent tube has a pair of low voltage filaments at the ends of
    the tube which warm the gases in the tube and make them ionize (ignite)
    more easily.  (Ever try starting a flourescent outside in winter ...
    nearly impossible!) In a conventional flourescent fixture, these are fed 
    by taps on the ballast which supply a current limited low voltage across 
    the filaments when the tubes light (Olders fixtures used starters which
    actually turn the filaments off when the tube strikes).  In the
    cheap lights, rather than use a ballast, they use a resistance
    element in the power lead which limits the current through the
    filaments.
    
    Hence the special cords; they are supposed to have a high resistance.
    Wire it directly in and the filaments will vapourize instantly.  (The
    ends of the tube will turn black in a hurry!)
    
    The tube life in these cheap fixtures is shortened dramatically
    because the filaments have a significant current flow through them
    all the time.  (The filaments vapourize and produce the characteristic
    black ends).  The modern ballast fixture gives a longer life because
    the current through the filaments is reduced when the tube strikes.
    The older starter fixture gives the longest life because the filaments
    are turned off when the tube strikes, because under normal operation
    the ionization of the gas can be maintained without the additional
    heat.  Alas, starters were unreliable, and the tubes tended to be
    slow to start, so they were abandoned in favour of the ballast only
    control, which gives a fast start at the expense of shorter tube life.
    Also it allowed the tubes to operate in cooler conditions.
    
    Stuart

I have an aquarium at home that has a special flourescent fixture that fits
into the top of the aquarium.  So, the fixture is not interchangeable.  Also,
the bulb is not a standard light either...special wavelengths for the fish and
not for the algae.

The electronics include a plug/transformer unit in order to eliminate the 
heat generated by the transformer from being close to the water, a pushbutton
switch, NO starter, and the light tube.

The pushbutton switch requires you to hold the switch in until there is a 
minor glow in the light, then release and the light lights.

The problem is that we have many "blink outs" in our power.  This results in 
the light being off most of the day.  Turning it on requires pushing the button
twice (once off, once hold-warmup-release-on).

Is there a means of converting this unit to come on when power is restored?

    To convert a flourescent from push-to-start to instant start, see
    note 194.7 through 194.last in the ICBB::FISH notes conference for a 
    complete description.
    
    (Press <keypad><7> to add that conference to your notebook)
    
    cheers,
    jeff
    

    
    
    Can one use SCR (silicon controlled rectifiers) to control Halogen
    lights?
    
    Thanks for any info,
    
    Ken

Ballasted or non-ballast?

I suspect that you cannot use an SCR (or triac for that matter) to control a
halogen light.  As I understand it, all halogen lights require a specific
operating temperature to work correctly.  This is achieved by operating the
light at a specific voltage.  Any change in the operating voltage changes the
operating temperature and will shorten the life of the light.

Again, this is my understanding.  If it is incorrect, I'm sure somebody will
generously offer to correct it :-) :-)

- Mark

    Another opinion.  From reading in a lighting catalog, I learned that
    the halogen in the lamp boils off of the filament and circulates in the
    envelope.  If run at a reduced temperature, the material tends to
    deposit.  They suggest running the lamp at full output from time to
    time to boil the material off the wall of the bulb.  Obviously the
    color temperature of the lamp will vary with voltage, but people use
    dimmers to get that nice warm glow anyway!  Another thought.  Most
    lamps burn out when first turned on..due to the inrush of current. 
    Using a dimmer (such as a toggle) that starts low ans increases may
    actually extend the life of the lamp.  The one rule that always
    applies, is to never touch the lamp with your fingers.  The skin oils
    react with the coating of the lamp and shorted its life substantially.
    
    Rich

RE back 2

Friend of ours has a dusk to dawn halogen light that works every
night for the last three years. He has a full wave bridge in the
lamp. It is a lot dimmer (about 30%) but it has worked better
than my florescent lights working on the same dusk-to-dawn
electric eye switch.

My only reason for not selecting the halogen light was the shape
of the light; I have a low mounting angle and he had a high mount
so it looks a lot better in his application.

calvin

    If you  read  the  label on a halogen light box, it says "fully dimable
    for mood lighting".   Presumably you want it on full power when you are
    interrogating your mother-in-law, though.
    
    grins,
    
    gjd
    

I am looking for material to make a lamp shade. I don't know how it is called
properly, if it has any specific name at all.

The best as I can described it, it looks like a parchment or hard waxed paper,
but probably is made from some kind of plastic.

I already has checked with the following stores (without any success obviously):

Fabric Place
Lee Wards
Charrette
Burlington Lighting Supplies
Lamps & Shades in Concord.

Any advise where can I find it?

Thank you,
Gene

Check a well stocked artists supply store like Art hardware or world of crafts
I believe both a national chain.

-j

    A lot of crafts are discussed in ERIS::THREADS.  You might try there.

    
    
    Thanks for all the replies.  I called up General Electric's question
    line and was told that some allow dimming by SCR's and some don't.  Of
    course all of GE's quartz bulbs do, they try to sell you on how great
    GE is etc... The filiament must be a "full voltage filament".  The half
    wave or diode filiaments can not be dimmed apparently.
    
    The number is 216-266-3900, 8am - 5pm.  EST/EDT

    Although this could probably go under basic wiring it has to do with
    track lighting.
    
    I just bought a 250ft box of 14-2 romex (on sale at Spags 19.99)
    and am ready to wire the 3 sections of my track lights to a dimmer in
    the wall.  I have the plan in my head and have bought all the stuff.
    (dimmer, cable staples, wire connectors, metal box)
    I know where everything is going to go but for aesthetics I want to run
    the wiring up to the attic and over to the wall where the dimmer is
    going rather than running the wire in the open and getting that
    "raceway" molding to cover it up.  (single story ranch with easy access
    attic).
    
    Is this o.k. to do?  Having the wires in the attic exposed but stapled
    to the ceiling joists?  I know I can make it nice and neat and I'd like
    to do this before I plan on putting added insulation up there.  It
    would seem to me that this would be o.k. since the wires in the walls
    are essentially also exposed.  Or would the code require some sort of
    conduit in the attic?
    
    Also on a related note the dimmer I bought is rated to 600 watts
    which is what I plan on for a maximun wattage anyway, but if I do
    run 8 - 75watt bulbs at full throttle (600watts total) this is the
    max the dimmer can handle, but is this dangerous?  It's a G.E. but its
    very thin and doesn't appear to be that heavy duty or anything.
    Just want to know if it says it can handle 600watts does it really mean
    600watts.
    
    Steve....................................................

    Yes, running wire in the attic not in conduit is acceptable.  Try to
    keep it away from "the main pathway" thru the attic.  If it is not in
    the most used portion of the attic, it is less likley for people to
    accidently do something stupid.  Also try to keep it below the tops of
    the joists if possible.  At some point in the future, someone might put
    down some decking to use the attic as storage and then they would have
    to reroute the wire.  If you have 250' of wire, taking a little more
    indirect route should not be a problem.  If you drill holes thru the
    joists, make the holes at least 1 1/4 inches below the top.  This
    protects against most nails from entering the wire if driven from the
    top down.
    

> If you drill holes thru the
>    joists, make the holes at least 1 1/4 inches below the top

And the bottom!  You never know when someone might re-do the ceiling below.

Paul

    The wiring wasn't as bad as I thought after I spent the time to map the
    outlets and lights in the house in reference to the circut breakers.
    Even managed to find a 20 amp line to tap off of for the tracks
    rather than the 15 amp I was originally planning on.
    
    Even snaking the wires was suprisingly easy.
    Just layed the wires on the ceiling joinsts.
    
    The attic is a truss set up so it wouldn't ever be used other than
    minor small storage between the trusses, if that, and I don't need the
    storage space.  Plenty in the basement.
    
    Steve................................................................

>    Even managed to find a 20 amp line to tap off of ...

      If  you  connected the 14-2 romex that you mentioned a few replies
      back to a line protected with a 20 amp circuit breaker  (or  a  20
      amp fuse) then you have violated code as I understand it. A 20 amp
      line must use #12 or heavier wire. I hope that my understanding of
      what you've done and/or of the code (and safety!)  requirements is
      wrong, but this may be a seriously dangerous situation.
      
      The  reason  for this is that if you draw 20 amps through #14 wire
      that wire can get hot enough to start a fire.  Yes,  I  understand
      that  your  track light won't draw 20 amps through the 14 ga wire,
      so you may not be in immediate danger.  But there is a  very  real
      danger from at least two possible future occurrences.
      
          1)  It is possible that one or more of your track lights could
          develop a short circuit which would draw more than 15 amps but
          not more than 20 amps.  If this happened you would have a very
          real danger of fire.
          
          2) Some future DIYer might connect additional load to your #14
          wiring and this could cause the total load to be more than  15
          but not more than 20 amps.  Again, a real fire danger.
      
      What  to do?  The quickest and easiest fix would be to replace the
      20 amp breaker with a 15 amp breaker.  (Its O.K. for some  of  the
      wiring  to  be  heavier  than  the  minimum  required.)   However,
      depending on what all is on  the  circuit,  including  your  track
      lights,  15  amps might not be enough apmacity.  (i.e. the breaker
      /fuse might blow frequently.)
      
      Second  possibility  is  to  connect  the track lights to a 15 amp
      circuit that has enough uncommitted ampacity.
      
      Third, and most difficult would be to replace your 14-2 with 12-2.
      
      DISCLAIMER:   I  am not an licensed electrician nor a code expert.
      The above is based on my understanding, which could be  in  error.
      However,  if  I  am  correct you are facing a very real danger and
      possibly severe legal liability as well. I recommend that you have
      the  safety and legality of what you have done checked by a person
      with the appropriate expertise.

    Very good point in fact I was going over the whole box today anyway.
    I have 2 20amp breakers and 2 15amp breakers, and a sub-panel with 2
    15amp fuse-type breakers total for the outlets and lights in the house.
    The other breakers are the furnace (15amp), dryer (30amp), stove (40amp),
    and the main 100amp shutoff breaker.  The subpanel was put in after the
    house was built because the wire to and from it are newer romex.
    
    Both the 20 amp breakers have #14 wire from them.  Why didn't
    the house inspector notice this after he spent 20 minutes in that box
    alone during the inspection.  (We have only lived here for 2 months
    now.)
    
    As soon as I can I will change the 20's to 15's.  The circuit will
    still be able to handle the track lighting well due to the already low
    use of this particular line.
    
    thanks,  Steve...........................still a very green home owner

It takes a little pratice to tell a 12 guage wire from a 14 guage wire (most
makers of the RX cable don't bother to stamped the guage on the insulated wire 
inside).  The inspector may have been just looking for doubled up circuts or 
such (which tends to be common in older houses).  

How did you determine that the wire is 14 guage on those breakers?

Brian

    The wire I traced from the breaker to out of the box is stamped 14 when
    it exits the box (on the insulation).  Inside the box its hard to tell 
    with so many wires and no outer insulation with the numbers stamped on it.
    All the wires traced from that point outside the box to their final point 
    (outlets + lights) are 14's.  The only thing that needs to be done is
    to change the breaker from 20 to 15.
    
    I don't feel there is immediate danger running the track lights full
    power.  I only have  4 - 40watt and 4 - 60watt bulbs for a total of
    only 400 watts.  The only other things on this line are the 800watt
    microwave and the 100watt rear outside light.  1300watts total is less
    than 80% of a 15 amp line limit.  I will of course change the 20amp
    breaker to a 15amp asap.  But the above total figure is assumming
    everything is on.
    
    Steve..................................(old timers have patience with me!)

>>    Steve..................................(old timers have patience with me!)

Old timers!  Gee I just moved into my first house last week!  (but I have been
working on them all my life)

If you have taken the time to figure out what each appliance draws on a
specific line you have done better than most.  The problem with this is the
general use outlets.  You never know what anyone is going to plug into them and
that is why they have limits to the number you can have on a single line.

Adding new track lighting can make a big difference in a room and I hope your
happy with the results.

Brian

	Re: .20

>Adding new track lighting can make a big difference in a room and I hope your
>happy with the results.

	A big amen to that!  Before we added the track lights to our livingroom,
it was a dark room due to the limited options on moving regular lights around.
Now we have track lights along all four walls, each wall on a separate dimmer
circuit and a total of 10 heads at 75 watts each.  (And yes, we're careful to
never put more than 600w on any individual dimmer circuit.)  We can now set up
the room to any degree of lighting from very soft background lighting all the
way up to aiming all the lights at one point and being able to out-cook a
microwave oven!  We love it.  We're in the process of redoing the livingroom
and "gee, where do we put the lights?" is not the problem it usually can be.

								-craig

    Yes I am very happy with the results.  I have always favored
    contemporary lighting, and on my budget this is one way I can show off
    my decorating taste, along with having a very functional lighting, and
    not be broke in the process.
    
    Also... I wired the 3 tracks to the dimmer on 3 separate runs so that
    in the future I can very easily add a couple more dimmers for
    individual track control, as opposed to the one-dimmer-does-all that I
    have now.  I'm glad I thought into the future on this one.
    
    Steve................................................................
                                                                         

>   ...1300watts total ... assuming everything is on.
      
      Also  assuming  everything  works  as it is supposed to -- i.e. no
      short circuits of overdrawing appliances, etc.  In the  short  run
      this may not be an unreasonable assumption.  By that I mean that I
      don't think most people would advise you to get the hardware store
      guy  out  of  bed at 3:00 AM to get you a 15 amp breaker.  But you
      really should get the 15 amp breaker with a couple of days.
      
      hmmm...It  occurs to me that there's one more assumption -- namely
      that you traced the circuit correctly and completely.   You  sound
      reasonably competent, so you probably did. However, strange things
      can happen... As you know if you follow this conference!

      Don't put it off -- Go get that 15 amp breaker.

    
    
    Hello,
    
    I want to put up some Halogen lights in my living room.The prices
    of the fixtures are not so bad but the Xformers to step them down
    to 12 50VA are a small fortune.
    Sooo I thought I would buy my own.I went down to an electronics
    supply store and bought a 12.6 4amp centerTap Xformer.The siz of
    this Xformer seems larger than what I need but according to what
    I remember from days past is to get 12V with a 50va rating I need
    a 4amp rated Xformer.
     
    I actually bought 2 Xformers, one for each light.I've tried the
    lights in 3 configurations,in all cases not using the centertap
    off the Xformer(Why would one want to use the center tap anyways,
    just to get half the voltage?).
    I set up one light singly, This produces an intense light but
    seems to generate too much heat.
    2 lights off one Xformer in series.This produces a less intense
    heat,but still generates a lot of heat.
    2 lights in parallel.This gives the same results as single setup
    still creating alot of heat.
    The first 2 cases the voltage was 12.9-13.2 area.The 2l lights in
    parallel was ~10v accross light fixture.
    I will go to the store to see how hot this fixture is supposed to get.
    Does my origional set up of on light/Xformer sound right?
    
    
    Thanks,
    Mike

 I have just built a large shelving display for my wife to show her pottery
 at crafts shows.  Currently the only thing missing is display lighting.
 While lighting will not always required if the surrounding light level is
 sufficent, I am concerned that the wide display shelves (15") may cast shadows
 which impede the view of pottery on the back of the shelves.  I think that two
 small-to-medium lights suspended out in front of the display would solve any
 lighting problems.  I have planned to attach two telescoping or gooseneck
 style lamps to some upright supports at the top of the shelving display.
 These could then be pulled out in front of the display, and pointed beck and
 down to illuminate the display.

 This display will be used soon at an indoor crafts show.  While there will
 be quite a bit of ambient light, I am still concerned about the display
 looking a bit gloomy if insufficiently lit.  So far, so good ... I could go
 and buy some lights and mount them ... but there is one catch!  At this crafts
 show, and presumably at other similar shows, they want $50(!) for the use of
 an electrical outlet for the two days of the show.  It doesn't matter how
 much power is draw, its $50 no matter what!

 So, to investigate the possibility of saving $35-$50 per show, I have been
 reading the previous replies about low-voltage lighting.  While they all
 suggest using a transformer to step down household voltage to 12V, it seems
 clear that some form of this lighting could equally be battery powered.
 I have seen some outdoor "security lights" with double spotlights which are
 battery powered, and don't seem to require a 12v car battery to power them.
 I would like a fairly white light, so it seems that a setup of low-voltage
 halogen lamps would be perfect.

 The lights don't have to be too high in wattage, and would only have to run
 for about two eight hour days between battery rechargings.  Ideally, I would
 like to be able to plug them in when the display is at home, or when the
 plug/power is not $50.  It seems that I would need a tranformer for this, but
 would the tranformer and battery power be interchangable, or would the lights
 have to be designed for one or the other?  What type of battery would be best?
 Are there any extensible lamps for low voltage lights?  If not, could a
 gooseneck lamp be rewired to support low voltage lights?  Where should I look
 to get the stuff I will need to make these lamps?

 Thanks for any and all suggestions,
 Todd

    I would guess you did right the first time, and the lamps just get very
    hot.  Most of them have ceramic bases and other high temperature
    materials in the fixtures....
    
    BTW:  I wouldn't draw 50 watts from a 12-volt, 4 amp transformer... 
    You forgot to derate it....
    
    Willie

Todd,

Automotive lights creates a shadow. Will RV flourescent lights do
the job? They're pretty shadow free. You can get two dual 16watt
florescent 12 volt lights that draws about 1.5 amps running.
Incadescent or halogen lamps pull about 5-8 amps for the same
amount of light coverage; though definitely brighter.

cal

    I thought Hologen lights were supposed to go inside pumpkins.

    You can now buy 120 volt halogen spots and floods that fit into
    conventional 120 volt fixtures thus avoiding the cost of the
    transformers.
    

    How about glass shelves to avoid the problem?
    

 re .29,
 Thanks Cal, this is the kind of alternative that I need to look at.
 Where could I find some of these 12 volt flourescent lights?  I am not sure
 that shadows from halogen lights would be a problem since I hope to suspend
 them out in front of the display, and it is the shadows from lights directly
 overhead that I am most concerned about, so I would still like to check the
 halogen alternative too.  It is true, though, that I would not want a highly
 focused halogen light for this purpose.  Thanks for your idea, and I would
 greatly appreciate it if you could point me to someplace which may have both
 alternatives available for me to look at.

 re .30,
 This is a great problem solving idea too!  However, glass shelves would
 have posed other problems with scratching and breakage .. and some of my
 wife's pottery pieces are large enough to cast shadows themselves .. and
 probably most importantly, the glass shelves would not have given my wife
 the "look and feel" that she was thinking of.  I get to design and build
 the display (lucky me) .. but only after it passes my wife's strict approval
 process ;-}

 Thanks for the ideas so far ... I still need more help though, so please
 keep the ideas coming!

 Todd

    Following the idea that the shelves could be made differently...
    
    What if you made a frame of 1x2s and put a heavy metal screen in the
    center of the framework.  This would allow light to pass thur, would
    not show nicks and scratches, and would keep the "feel" of rustic.  It
    would also make the shelves lighter in weight which maybe come a big
    feature after many craft shows.
    
    Or how about a string of white christmas tree mini-lights run along the
    bottom of each shelf.  One string along the front of the shelf and
    another along the backside of the shelf.  Light from both sides of the
    piece directly onto each shelf.  No shadows and no overhanging lights
    to worry about.  You still get back to the 12 volt vs 110 volt issue but
    it is an alternative lighting idea.
    
    You could route a grove in the bottom of the shelf to help recess the
    wiring and the bulbs.  This would help reduce the christmas like feel
    to the display.  In combination, you could also attach a small piece of
    molding to the edge of each shelf.  Between recessing the wiring and
    hiding the rest behind molding, you would not see the lights, only the
    light on the pottery.  Attach the wiring with staples and the lights
    become a permanent part of the shelf and reduce the setup time and the
    chance for breakage.
    
    Just a crazy idea.

    I've seen 12V (or even 6V) flourescent lamps sold for automotive
    use (as trouble lamps, etc.)  I am certain that RV dealers would
    also have them.  However, I don't think that flourescents are the
    ideal lighting for displaying crafts.
    
    			Steve

    What about adapting a couple of those solar powered walk lights that
    are popular right now?  You could put a piece of electrical tape over
    the photocell to fool it on.  The light in the building might even be
    bright enough to help increase running time.  
    
    Carl

    Oh, yeah, the flourescent 12v lights can be had from Sears in the
    RV/van catalog.  You might also be able to adapt the camping lantern
    style, some of which come with rechargable nicads and a built in
    recharger.  
    
    Carl

    Another option may be at your local hobby center. I believe the lights
    used for model railroading and doll houses use low voltage 6-12v grain
    of wheat bulbs. You may also be able to find low voltage panel lights 
    at your local electronics store.  A long time ago I also thought I saw
    a small mini light bar in a J.C Whitney catalog. I think they used it
    to light up a makeup mirror. 
    
    Don

	I'm not sure if this applies to your needs but I just bought
	a 300W Halogen lamp at Lechmere for $50. It runs off 120v.
		
	They also have bulbs available.

	Bob    

    Grain of wheat bulbs are much too dim for this purpose.  I think
    that small spotlights (halogen would work well) are the best bet
    from the viewpoint of making the pottery look its best.
    
    			Steve

 re .32,
  I don't think your mini-light idea is crazy at all.  I am a bit concerned
 about the look of the wires and bulbs (even if recessed in a routed groove)
 but this does open up a new alternative.  Is there such a thing as light
 "strips", which could lay relatively flat against the underside of the shelf
 (or recess fully into a groove)?  By the way, the shelves are already
 complete, and are 1"x15"x6' poly/stained pine with routed rounded edges/ends.
 So for good or bad, changing the shelves is no longer an alternative for me.

 re .33,
  Thanks for the RV dealer pointer .. maybe I can find some other lighting
 options at an RV dealer.  I will also check out Sears for RV stuff as pointed
 out by .35.  I am interested in whether you think that the color spectrum of
 the flourescents would not be as flattering for the pottery pieces (which I
 tend to agree with, but I have to check out), or if there is some other
 reason that you think flourescents are not best for this.

 re .34,
  I think that these solar powered lights are great, and while I'm not sure
 if I can find one with an appropriate form factor to serve my needs, I will
 definitely give them another look.

 re .36,
  The hobby center is a good idea.  I wonder if what you mention as panel
 lights or the mini light bar (J.C.Whitney?) are what I am thinking of as
 light "strips" above.  I will check into it.


 Boy, what a great set of diverse brainstorming ideas ... 

 Thanks so much for the responses, Home_work, and keep them coming.

 Todd

    re .37,
    
    You beat me to the last reply Steve, and it seems that you have
    answered the question that I posed to you in .38. Thanks.
    
    I tend to prefer the small halogen spotlight idea, but I am still
    lacking some confidence as to whether (or where) I could obtain the
    materials I would need to construct battery powered telescoping
    spotlights for this purpose.
    
    Todd

> Where could I find some of these 12 volt flourescent lights? 

	I know Spags in Shrewsbury has them.  I just purchase one last
	week, albeit the thing fryed as soon as i turned it on!  They
        are about $8.00 and can optionally use 8 AA-cells.  The bulb
        is about 7-8" long.

-james

    
    
    I've seen the new 120 volt halogen lights but they do not offer
    the style of the 12 volts.
    
   > BTW:  I wouldn't draw 50 watts from a 12-volt, 4 amp transformer... 
   > You forgot to derate it....
    
    Derate?
    
    When I say runs hot, I mean HOT!! I will go to the store on Thurs to see
    if they also run that hot.
    
    Mike

re .38:

>                                           Is there such a thing as light
> "strips", which could lay relatively flat against the underside of the shelf
> (or recess fully into a groove)? 

I've seen these in lighting stores (Watertown Electric, I believe), but
they're probably 120 volt.  Have you tried calling lighting places?

I have seen those light strips also.  Similar to what is used for isles
in movie theaters.  My guess is that if they are low voltage, their
cost would put the project out of reach!  I saw a display at Granite
City Electric in Quincy.
Brian

>    Derate?
 
    Yeah, you know, never run anything at the limit of it's power handling
    capabilities.  Like if a resistor calculates out to .2 watts, don't use
    a 1/4 watt resistor, use a 1/2 watt.  And don't draw 50 watts (4.17
    amps at 12 volts) from a transformer rated at 48 watts.  Add a fudge
    factor of 70 percent to your power calculations...
    
    Do you drive your car flat out at 5000 RPM all the time? :+)
    
    Willie
    

    Some airplanes have a row of lights encased in basically a clear
    plastic tube running down the edge of the aisle which supposedly light
    in an emergency to show you the way to the exits.  If planes use them,
    they would have to be 12 volt.  I don't know if they sequence or are
    lit constantly since I have not yet been in a plane that had this
    feature during an air emergency.   I am flying this weekend and if I
    have an emergency and the plane has this feature, I will report here.
    ;^)
    
    

    Re .43
    
    Commercial airliners aren't 12 volt, unfortunately.  I think they're
    24V.  Don't ask me why.  Good try.
    
    pbm
    

    To answer an unrelated question in the base note, the reason for a
    center tap on the transformer is to allow full-wave rectification
    with only two diodes instead of the four needed without a center
    tap.
    
    				Steve

...or to allow multiple or split voltage power supplies to be built from one
transformer winding.

-Mike

    Re .6: Does anyone have any recommendations for a battery-powered,
    sound-or-motion-activated light? I'm looking for something to light the
    basement stairwell, and have no handy outlets and a very high
    ceiling... 
    
    thx,
    -b

< Note 139.18 by EVETPU::RUST >


>    Re .6: Does anyone have any recommendations for a battery-powered,
>    sound-or-motion-activated light? I'm looking for something to light the
>    basement stairwell, and have no handy outlets and a very high
>    ceiling... 
    
I saw one that was meant for an outside application that used
solar to recharge a battery. Perhaps some modification to the
solar panel or battery supply to disposal batteries might solve
the problem? 

calvin

    The price of these lights has come down considerably since the base
    note was written.  Most of the local retailers (Lechemere, Caldor,
    Bradlee's) have these shine-on-the-ceiling halogen lamps for $35-45.  
    I just got two at Channel for $32 each ($39.99 - 20%).
    
    My lights have 300 watt bulbs which the box says are equivalent to 3
    150 watt incandescents.   The built in dimmers give a good range from 
    candle-light to super-nova.
    
    I have a question about the bulbs though.  The instructions says to
    replace them with a J-type 300 watt bulb.  I've only checked a couple
    of stores, but the only thing close that I've found is a bulb for an outdoor
    halogen flood light that says T-3 on it.  Both are about the same size 
    (~3" long) and both have contacts on both ends like a flourescent bulb.   
    The T-3 ($5.48 at Kmart in Nashua, NH) is sealed in a box, so I can't tell 
    if it's exactly the same as mine.  Anyone know if they are compatible?  I 
    suspect that they are, but don't want to spend $5 to find out.
    
       Thanks,
    
      -- Jeff  

    Lechmere in Nashua (if you're in the area) has replacement bulbs
    downstairs near the escalator.
    
    R
    

    T-3 lamps are tubular with the power connection being both ends
    J-style I believe are screw in.
    
    -j

I'm in the process of building a home and need to purchase
*LOTS* of lighting fixtures.

I'm told that there are stores that offer "builders discounts"
in instances such as mine.

Could anyone recommend stores that offer this incentive in 
either Mass. or N.H.?

Thanks very much,
Patti

    I think it depends on what you call "lots".  When we built our house,
    we ordered 10 identical windows, even from the same lumber yard which
    supplied all our 2x4's etc. - discount?  Nah, not on a measly 10.  Same
    with lighting fixtures.  We got *most* of ours from Builders Square - I
    think less than two dozen.  No discount.

    If by "lots" you mean 50 or 100! - then ... maybe.

When building a house about 6 years ago, got a decent discount
from a place in framingham. It was a fixture store with a contractor
section in the back. Before buying anything, I went up and told them
I wanted to purchase one-house's worth of breaker panel, boxes, outlets,
wire, *and* fixtures. and not all at once, either. They said fine, and
quoted me a discount price.

Later on in the project, when needing fixtures, I'd see what model's
i wanted from their showroom, and then instead of purchasing it
at the showroom cashier, just went to the back contractor table,
went to the guy there who now had become a friend, and got decent 
prices. that way, no discount hassles (so *who* said you could have x% OFF?).

dl

    Try this

	$ VTX livewire

	select 1 on 1st MEnu
	select 3 greater maynard area news
	select 2 activities
	select 97 discounts
	select 6 furniture/home

	look for Ralph Pill and whoever else may be there
	

    Hi Patti,
    
    Check with the Electric Candle on Rte 110 in Chelmsford.  They're
    giving us a builder's discount, although it may be because our builder
    does alot of business with them.  Good luck.
    
    ...Ken

    
    Yet more sources...
    
        	Electrical supply of Milford, Milford NH                        
    	
    		Mass Gass and Electric. They have a store in Nashua
    NH, Boston Ma, Watertown Ma, Portsmouth NH. 
    
    They usually will work a better deal with you if you explain to them 
    that you are building a house. Typically at their stores you can
    figure 40% off of list as a regular price. If you swing a deal they
    will give you the so called contractor prices, 50% off of list.
    I have found most electrical supply stores will do the same sort
    of deal if you push for it. 
    
    Good luck with the house!
    
    P

    "50% off list" on lighting is a price you can get just by walking
    off the street at many electrical supply stores (eg. Ralph Pill).
    The list price is, as most are, set artificially high to make the
    discount look like a bargain, and to pad the profits of contractors
    who bill their clients the list price.
    
    Standard Electric in Nashua typically offers 15-20% off their regular
    prices for contractors, but sale prices are often lower.
    
    			Steve

    Spags can probably beat them all.  Their selection may not be quite as
    extensive, though.
    
    Bob

As far as selection is concerned, Spags < Ralph Pill < a lighting specialty
store, like Wolfer's.  I believe Ralph Pill only sells Progress.

Given the state of the economy, I imagine any lighting supplier would be
willing to dicker.

Too bad you missed out on Watertown Electric's going-out-of-business sale.
There was a sad story about their downfall on the front page of the Sunday
Globe a couple of months ago.

    
    A few years back when I was in this situation, Standard Electric
    in Waltham gave me the contractor's discount, and I only bought
    about 10's of things.  (like recessed lights, circuit breakers, etc.)
    
    My architect said Wolfer's would usually do the same if you 
    asked and explained what you wanted.
    
    as mentioned in the last note...give it a shot with whomever you
    normally deal with....they just may need business bad enough to
    negotiate with you.
    
    deb
    

I recently added on to my house, and I got all my recessed lighting from
Golden Valley Lighting, located in either North Carolina or Georgia (I meant to
look up the number last night, but forgot).

They carry pretty much all the major brands at substantially lower prices than
local suppliers.  Of course, there's no sales tax either.  The only caveat is
that you can't return anything.  However, they do exchange defective items -
I had one.

I did a price comparision between them and 3 or 4 local suppliers.  I don't
have the comparision with me.  I do remember that they gave me lightolier
insulated boxes for recessed lights (model 1000? - the kind that you can put
insulation right up against) for about $8 versus about $16 locally. The 
reflectors (my wife wanted gold ones and they are priced like thay are real
gold) were about $40 each versus $60 each locally. So I saved $300 on 10 lights.

ahhh...just found the number in a mail message...it's 800-735-3377...if you
have the brand and model number, call and get a quote...you should be presently
surprised...

ps.

if anyone wants, I can dig up my price comparision sheet and post it in another
reply.

    If you still have the price list hanging around, I would certainly
    appreciate the posting.  We too have priced the recessed lighting
    fixtures at around $18.  
    
    Also, once the order is placed, how long did it take for you to 
    get your fixtures?
    
    Thanks to all for the replies...
    Patti

I couldn't find my cost compariaion sheet, but I have the invoice from golden
valley, and I can guess at the other places.  Both local places were around the
same.  All model numbers listed are lightolier.


model/supplier			Golden Valley  Hanson's (Fram.) &Benjamin's (worcester)

1108 (rec. trim satin gold)	   $34.31	both over $60

1100IC (rec. hsg. ins. ceiling)     $8.31	both between $15 and $16

1038 (rec. trim gold alzac)	   $53.20  	both around $75

1000IC (rec. hsg. ins. ceiling)     $8.31	both between $15 and $16

rec. = recessed
hsg. = housing
ins. = insulated

I think I received my order in about 4 weeks.  The 1038 was backordered and
took longer.  The important thing to get on time were the housings.  If you
pay by check (I paid by credit card) it takes longer since they wait for the 
check to clear.  

ps.

from my conversation with them, it appears that their goal is to be lower in
price than any other mail order place as well.

Let us know if you go with them.

    
    
    	Try using High Output Fluorescent fixtures. They come with low
    temp ballasts by default. They are brighter than run of the mill
    lamps when its warm and will light well below freezing although
    the output is reduced. Adding plastic protector sleeves to the
    lamp will help keep the lamp warmer when it is cold and increase
    the output somewhat. I don't have the lumen figures with me so I
    can't help you there.
    
    	P
    	 
    
    	

I have one of the "Compact" flourescent bulbs in my porch light, and a
standard U-tube flourescent over the driveway.  When the weather gets
cold, they take longer to get going, but they've never failed to light.

				Steve

    I don't have any problem with flourescents, I have four 8' two bulb
    fixtures in the barn. They take awhile when sub freezing, but still
    will work even when below zero. Granted, you don't flick the switch
    and presto, but it they work.

    RE: .8
    Ditto reply .9  I use four fixtures of these "HO" lights in my garage. 
    I have not had a problem with them lighting.  With all four on, its
    like daylight in the garage too!!
    
    Dan

    FWIW-Cold weather balasts are availible for standard 4' fixtures
    the ballast part usualy is appended with a "cw" as part of the number
    to indicate it's rateing. I recently replaced a ballast in 2 of the 
    8' 2 tube fixtures in my garage I bought the CW variety for $3.00
    over the non CW ballast. At the wholesaler I worked for in my previous
    life we would often accept a new non CW and a few bucks for the CW
    flavor. Maybe you can work a trade?
    
    -j

    The lights on one circuit in my house had been flickering occasionally.
    Saturday night, just for kicks, I went into the cellar to look in the
    fuse box. The fuse controlling the offending circuit was WARM. Not too
    hot to touch, but very obviously warm.
    
    ...so I swapped it out, and the next one heated up.
    
    So I killed the mains, checked the fuse socket with a DVM, and tried to
    turn the screw at the base of the fuse socket. Loose as a goose.
    Tightened it up. Ended the flickering AND the warm fuse problem.
    
    Edd

    I'm looking for a shop light with a round flourescent tube with a
    magnifying glass in the center of the tube.  The arm of the lighwould
    have an elbow and then the whole thing gets bolted to a table or it
    could remain protable with the right kind of attachment.  I've called
    Hammar Hdwr, Raplh Pill, Lighting Gallery ... the closest I've come 
    is at a sewing supply store - they sell them to people who do
    needlework!  I need it for a gift for a person who would use it doing
    close work in his workshop.   Any ideas of where to go in the So. NH
    area for such a beast?
    
    Carol
    

    
    should have set the needlework one is OK except it is a floor lamp
    only.  
    
    carol

    My tracklighting which has bullet style shades regularly blows bulbs ...
    I think when I first had it installed, I was sold special bulbs.  I
    had thought that didn't matter on the long run so I gradually started
    using plain bulbs.  Now I am having trouble with the bulbs failing
    regularly ... and I am wondering if there might be a connection :-) !
    Do you use the special bulbs which came along with your lighting? 
    
    Carol

    
    
    		Try WW grainger in Manchester NH
    
    
    	I know they sell them, don't know if they will have one in stock.
    
    P

    Luxo Lamp Co. makes these, Model KFM-1A, $199.00.  (!)  There's also
    a cheaper version, the Luxo Magna_lux II, for $70.00.  I'd check
    a drafting supply store.
    
    If you can't find anything locally, these lights are sold by
    
    Brownell's Inc.
    Route 2, Box 1
    Montezuma, Iowa  50171
    
    (Gunsmmith supply outfit; $4.00 for catalog)

Most office-supply stores will have them (try Staples.)  Also, Lechmere
has them.

			Steve

    
      A good question. I have been curious about this as well. 
    My thinking would be that they recommend the R type because 
    they are designed to reflect the light out of the cans thereby
    sending light to the aimed spot. If you change to a regular bulb
    the light would be less directed and the targeted area would recieve a
    lot less light. If you exceed the recommended wattage you could be
    building up to much heat in the can and could possibly cause shortened
    bulb life.

RE: <<< Note 3804.17 by SELL3::ROBERTS "when there were no songs to sing..." >>>
    

>> -< shoplite with magnifying glass? >-


  At the $ sign type;

 VTX PDCSTORE

 Check out the office supplies, and drafting menu selections.

    Thanks everyone for your ideas.  I found two qualities out there. 
    Lechmere and Staples has the $59-$79 variety (depends on whether they
    are on sale).  Fabric stores have the $30 variety which I discovered
    comes with a bracket so you can attach the upper 'arm' to a bench.  The 
    more expensive one has a flourescent (round)tube with a 7" (+/-) wide
    magnifying glass, pull down handle and generally very solid.  The $30
    one has an incandescent fixture and maybe a 4" wide glass.  It is
    adjustable  from floor lamp to bench style, has a plastic knob for a
    pulldown fixture and is overall more lightweight then the other...as I
    would expect.  The more expensive one is clearly a class act...the less 
    expensive will suit the purpose for now until the workshop really gets
    going in full swing.  
    
    Carol

	re .24  There definately are limits to the wattage you should use
	for a given canister size.  The fixtures are usually labelled.
	If you don't get enough light with the recommended wattage (or
	less), I would suggest getting another head.
	    One way you can probably get extended life out of you lamps
	is to buy 130 Volt light bulbs.  They would burn slightly dimmer
	than the 120 Volt variety, but the difference is negligable. The
	filaments are a little bit heftier and tend to last longer.  
	    Another thing to consider is how often the light bulbs are
	being turned on and off.  The surge current through the filament
	is very high when you turn the fixture on, and it slams into the
	filament and breaks it.  That's why light bulbs usually 'burn 
	out' when you turn them on.  
	    A dimmer control could also help reduce the number of bulb 
	failures.  They can also add to the ambience.  Rule of thumb is:
	The cheaper the dimmers are, the noisier they tend to be.

					Tim

If you use a dimmer for track lighting, be sure that the dimmer you buy is 
robust enough for all of the heads on the track.   Dimmer switches create a 
lot of heat, and must be properly rated.

If you have five heads, with 75 watt bulbs, you need a dimmer that is capable
of handling (5x75) or 375 watts.

Bob

    Any suggestions for the _best_ (meaning large display, large in-stock
    selection, fair prices) exterior lighting dealer in the southern NH or
    Methuen/Lawrence area?  We've checked Ralph Pill in Salem NH and Brite
    Ideas also in Salem.
    
    Thanks,
    Al

    Try Standard Electric in Nashua (across the Pheasant Lane Mall, in the 
    same building as Jordan's Furniture) - they have a pretty decent 
    selection.  I'm not too sure about the prices - talk to Jamie (the
    assistant mgr.) - real nice guy.  Tell him I sent you...
    
    							-Sujal Dave'-

From: clarinews@clarinet.com
Subject: Halogen lamps linked with cancer
Date: 16 Apr 92 00:54:40 GMT


	WASHINGTON (UPI) -- Halogen lamps, increasingly popular because of
their intense brightness and reduced energy consumption, cause cancer in
laboratory animals if the lamps do not have a plastic or glass covering,
scientists said Wednesday.
	Appropriate covers already are used in many commercially available
halogen lamps, the researchers said in the British journal Nature.
	In a study, four laboratory mice exposed to 50-watt uncovered halogen
lamps for 12 hours per day developed skin lesions within four months.
	A second group of mice exposed to the same lamp but with a 2-
millimeter thick transparent glass covering did not develop the lesions.
Neither did a control group of animals that were not exposed to the
halogen.
	The researchers cautioned that the animal study did not have direct
implications for humans, but they said glass or plastic covers should be
required in all halogen lamps as a precaution.
	``The illumination doses and times in our study, although high, are
not so far from the levels to which some people are exposed,
particularly in the workplace,'' said Silvio De Flora and Francesco
D'Agostini of the University of Genoa School of Medicine in Genoa,
Italy.
	The halogen lights emit high frequency ultra-violet radiation, which
the scientists said is of the kind that can cause melanoma, the most
serious form of skin cancer.

    
    	This question fits the 'Track lighting - where?' part of this
    topic...  We are in the process of building a three-season room.
    It's about 14 X 24 with a 16' cathedral ceiling. It's got 5 large
    windows, a 12' patio door, and 4 skylights. (2 on each side). We're
    planning to go with track lighting, but where's the best place to
    locate it? We are also planning to install a ceiling fan, my gut
    feeling says not to locate the lighting above the fan...  true?
    My first thought is to attach the track to the top of the cross-ties,
    (the fan will be above these) which are 4X8's. Will I be able to point
    the heads downward from here? Or is it a better effect to leave them
    pointing upward for 'ambient' lighting? I am not concerned with being
    able to spotlight anything in the room... just looking for overall
    general lighting.  Does anyone have any comments, other ideas or
    experiences with lighting this type of room?  Thanks....

    
    	Re: .28
    
    	I don't have a good visualization of the room yet.  How about
    putting a rough diagram of the room in here?
    
    							-craig

    
    	eeek! you want me to draw PICTURES??  :*)  
    	think about this.... the room is 14 by 24 feet, the walls are 8
    	foot high, the ceiling peaks out at about 16 feet. The crosstie beams 
    	will be about 10 or 11 feet from the floor. They run the 'long'
    	way (24') across the room. There will be 6 of them, one flush up 
    	against each wall, and four across the open part of the ceiling.
    	Forget about the windows and doors, guess that's irrelevent to my 
    	question anyway...
    	
    	

    
    	Ok, no pictures... ;-)
    
    	Let me tell you what I did in our livingroom, and then translate
    that into your room.  We didn't know where we'd be putting furniture in
    the future, so I ran tracks along all four walls, but about 3 feet in
    from the wall.  Each of the sides of this rectangle of track is on a
    separate dimmer circuit, which gives us a lot of good flexibility in
    how we want the lighting to be.  This has worked out quite well for us.
    So if I was faced with putting track lights in a room like yours, I'd
    probably run tracks along the entire length (minus perhaps 3 feet on
    either end) of the first "inside" crosstie beam on each wall.  (ie. Not
    on the beam attached to the wall, but the first open one on each side.)
    Now, you have an asthetics versus practicality question -- do you want
    tracks along the width-ends of the room?  Personally, I'd put them in.
    To make the installation simplier, I'd attach one board under all the
    crosstie beams (instead of trying to attach each between-beams piece)
    and mount the width-wise tracks on them.  To keep all the lights
    visually the same, I'd probably also run another board under the
    length-wide beams (those that will have tracks, of course) so that all
    the lights have the exact same floor-to-light distance.
    
    	Ah, a thought.  For some dramatic indirect lighting (why not, its
    your project and not mine... ;-) I think I'd also put some tracks on
    the _top_ of the width-wise boards with some lights aimed up to show
    off the cathedral ceiling.  If you really want to get fancy and avoid
    the look of lights aimed every-which-way off of these boards, making
    "U" channels the size of the crosstie-beams (with the above mentioned
    width-wise board being the bottom of the "U") could let you hide the
    upwards facing lights.  Yeah, if I had a cathedral ceiling, this is
    what I'd do.
    
    	Oh, one of your earlier questions -- yes, I'd avoid having a track
    light be immediately above a fan.  Especially on low fan speeds, that
    might give a lousy blinking effect.
    
    							-craig

    
    	...good input... but do I put the track on top of the beams, or on
    	the side (presumably the side facing the rest of the room)...
    	I guess I'm confused about the actual use of this type of lighting
    	in this kind of application. Are the heads supposed to point
    	upwards or downwards. From what I can tell; if I mount the track 
    	on top of the beam, I'll have a problem pointing the heads down
    	into the room... but the track will be hidden on top of the beam.
    	If I mount the track on the side of the beam, I'll be able to 
    	point the heads either up towards the ceiling, or down into the 
    	room... except the tracks and fixtures will be very obvious.
    	Guess I'll have to learn to live with that!

    
    	Hmmm, your question sparked another thought.  Since my track
    lighting is attached to the ceiling, the track is naturally pointing
    downwards.  I was making the mistake of immediately applying that to
    your situation!  If you do mount the track on the side of the beams,
    then yes, you can point either downwards or upwards from the same
    track.  This would be easier to implement, but if you choose to do it
    watch out for two things:
    
    	1) Since the upwards-pointing lights and the downwards-pointing
    lights will be on the same track, you lose some lighting flexibility. 
    For example, if you want a soft indirect light environment, how do you
    only turn on the lights aimed upwards?  (I think I'd put a separate
    track and dimmer circuit for the upwards pointing lights.)
    
    	2) Be careful which sides of the beam you put the tracks on.  If
    you put it on the outside part of the beam (the side closest to the
    wall), its easier to put lights on chairs (etc.) along the wall, but it
    is harder to angle lighting into the middle of the room.  Vice versa --
    if you put the tracks on the inside side of the beam, make sure you can
    still angle the lights to get light along the wall.  Perhaps I'd do
    something like this to help hide the tracks:
    
    		|        |    |
    		|        |    | <- crosstie beam
    	   Wall	|       X|    |
    		|        +----+
    		|
    		|
    
    where the track would be fastened where the "X" is, as low as practical
    on the outside of the beam.  To get light in the middle of the room,
    however, the light fixture would have to be able to bend backwards to
    about a 45 degree angle like this:
    
    
                         |    |
                         |    |
                  / \---X|    |
                  \  \   +----+
                   \  \
                    \
    
    If your lights can bend back enough, this would hide the extra track
    nicely.  If not, well, putting the track on the bottom of the beam is,
    by far, the most flexible in terms of where you can aim the lights at.
    
    
    	As to your general question of whether lights should point up or
    point down when you're using tracks.  Both ways are nice for certain
    things.  If I'm reading, for example, I like the more-concentrated
    light provided by a fixture aimed downwards to my chair.  If I just want
    general area lighting (TV watching, talking to company, etc.), we'll aim
    the lights down along the walls to get a softer indirect lighting effect.
    (If you aim a few lights up, you could get a very dramatic indirect
    lighting coming down from the cathedral ceiling.)  There is no one
    "right" way of using track lighting.
    
    	By the way, track lighting gives you another variable to play with
    -- spot versus general lights.  Spot lights are good for really
    concentrating light on something -- a chair, painting or whatever --
    while the general lights give a wider "cone" of light and are good for
    area lighting.  After our tracks were in, I bought one of each kind so
    we could go around the livingroom and decide how many of each kind we
    wanted.
    
    							-craig

    Many companies make track with multiple circuits and lights that can be
    focused from a narrow spot to a broad flood.
    
    Having used track extensively I learned that positioning is critical. 
    You might want to take your blueprints to your supplier and discuss the
    results you would like to achieve.

    Kinda funny ... while reading this note I just pictured someone giving
    there kid an erector set and the kid asking which way it's *supposed* to
    go together.
    
    Granted you can really screw up with where the lights point, I love
    having track lighting for the versatility in that I can change it at a
    moments notice.  I agree with whomever it was that said it depends on
    your situation, but also have fun with it!
    
    If I had a cathedral ceiling I'd probably do something contemporary
    like having 4 or 8 lights pointing up toward the ceiling with different
    *colored* lights.  Maybe a couple blue, a couple red, a couple green.
    Maybe just 4 at the corners with blue.  You could change it around
    whenever you wanted too.
    
    Steve

    
    I have a 16x20 family room with cathedral ceiling, fan and track
    lights (sorry, no beams).
    
    The ceiling has a 4' horizontal section down the middle:
    
                           -----------------
                          /                 \
                         /                   \
                        /                     \
                       /                       \
     
    The fan is hung in the exact center of the room (well, it wasn't at
    first, but that's another story), and the tracks run from near the fan
    along the horizontal ceiling to the far walls. 
    
    There are six heads. Four wash the sloped ceilings and two halogen
    spots highlight wall hangings on the high walls at either end. Total
    lighting is 450 watts. The indirect lighting is very effective general
    lighting for the room. I find that down-lighting, for example over a
    chair for reading, it not nearly as comfortable or effective as a
    table lamp. I will consider tightly focused spots in one or two
    locations when we complete the decorating, but only for architectural
    highlighting, not for utility.
    
    Note that the lowered horizontal section of the ceiling makes for a
    decent angle fro tne heads to the sloped ceilings; not sure it would
    work as well (too shallow) if the sloped extended to the peak. If I had
    horizontal beams, I would definitely mount the tracks on the side and
    point the heads up for indirect lighting.
    
    
    

    
    This might not be the right note to enter this.  Moderator, feel free
    to move it if you wish.
    
    What about the eyeball types of recessed lights?  We are thinking of
    installing two regular recessed fixtures (75W A lamp, gold cone) in
    front of the fireplace and two eyeball fixtures in front of and angled
    towards the entertainment center.  Has anyone had problems with the
    eyeball type of fixture?  Also, what are the advantages or pitfalls to
    using the A lamps as opposed to the R lamps?

    I don't ever recall seeing such a note...so here goes.
    
    Relocate moderator if need be...maybe "The right tools for the job."
    
    I am attempting to replace the plastic covers that cover a 24" x 48"
    flush mount 4 bulb flourescent light fixure. The new ones create an 
    indirect type of light such as the lighting found in modern offices 
    here at DEC.
    
    A problem came about when I found out that the new covers need trimming 
    to fit the existing framework. They are made of a plastic material that 
    is very brittle and refuses to cut properly without breaking.
    
    
    1. I tried side cutters, but once a crack starts in the wrong direction, 
       forget it...it just keeps traveling.
    
    2. I tried snapping small pieces off with pliers, once scored with a
       utility knife, but that also seems to not be the proper way.
    
       Both 1. and 2. leave a very roughly finished edge and would be very time
       consuming if I should succeed at it.
    
    I also tried cutting it with a hacksaw blade, but again the material is so
    brittle that it starts to crack also.
    
    Anyone ever successfully cut this stuff and find the right tool for the
    job? I hate to break this stuff as these pieces cost $7 each and I have
    4 to install.
    
    Frustratedly, Dave'
    

    
    Dave,
    
    I use a similar material for glazing pictures.  One way to cut it is to
    clamp it between two bits of scrap ply and cut with a fine jigsaw or
    coping saw.
    
    Another way is to make repeated scores along both sides until it breaks
    along the line.  It can also be cut using a hot knife attachment to a
    soldering gun - but it's smelly and takes a while.
    
    Regards,
    
    Colin
    

	Hi,
	
		As an electrician I've had to replace a few of these from 
	time to time. The most succesful way I have found is with a table
	saw and a plywood blade put on the arbor reversed. ie the teeth
	face the wrong way and the saw has a false wood top applied to it.

	Here is how I set up:

	1) Install the blade in the correct direction on the arbor. 

	2) Adjust the fence to the cut that you want to make.

	3) Run the blade all the way down.
	 
	4) affix a piece of 1/2" or so plywood to the saw table with clamps.

	5) start the saw and raise the blade up through the plywood until
	   you have enough blade to go through the plywood, plastic panel and 
	   a little more. 

	6) shut the saw off, remove the plywood, reverse the blade, reinstall
	   the plywood with clamps to the table. The plastic panel will slide
	    on the plywood false table and be supported right up to the saw
	    blade. No chatter and with some luck no cracks.
	
	You should now be all set to trim away. I've also used a piece of
	plywood on top of the plastic panel when cutting, keeps the panel from
	riding up on the blade and sandwiches the panel to the false table.

	You can achieve somewhat the same efect while using a skill saw with 
	a plywood blade reversed on the arbor and a false surface applied to
	the skill saw. Here I use a 1/4 plywood false table and also run the 
	saw blade through it but this time with the blade on backwards. 
	(I know I'll catch some flack for that one :') ) Lay the panel on a
	piece of plywood and adjust the blade so that it just cuts the plastic
	panel and a little into the plywood  under the plastic panel.   

	I also cut vinyl siding with the blade reversed on the arbor. 

	Have fun!

        Paul

Anyone have experience with compact flourescent lighting?  I'm thinking about
installing some Lightolier downlights in my kitchen using quad-tube compact
flourescent bulbs.  From what I've read, these bulbs sound great: 13W unit
provides light equal to 60W incandescent; life is 10K-20K hours, vs maybe 1K
for incandescent; coating makes color very "true"; heat generated is minimal.
Downside is that the bulbs cost a lot. I'm also not sure from looking at the
info sheets andtalking to a salesperson what the best spacing  would be for use
in a kitchen where I need brightness. Evidently you can install two bulbs in a
fixture, but I don't think this necessarily doubles the candlepower.

Experiences? Opinions?

Brian

    I've been using them where possible but unfortunately some lighting
    fixtures require either flame bulbs, globe bulbs or spots/floods.
    
    They work best where there's a normal incandescent covered by
    some sort of opaque covering.  They take about a minute to get
    up to full brightness so you don't want to use them where you
    turn the lights on and off alot (for example a hallway from
    the garage to the house).  They also take about 1 second until
    they even start to produce light so you have to get used to it
    at first compared to an incandescent where you get instantaneous
    response.  They don't work well in recessed downlights in the
    kitchen since the downlight normally expect a flood lamp.  The
    compact flourescent is too long and it sticks out too much.  The
    compact flourescent also produces light in all directions so it
    is not appropriate for track lights.
    
    If you do a cost analysis of the bulbs, they are supposedly cheaper
    over the long run because of the energy saved and their lifetime.
    Typical incandescents have about a 750-1000 hr life.  Some
    electric utilities will give you a rebate on the bulbs also.
    
    I wouldn't put two bulbs in a fixture, just get the larger quad
    flourescent bulb.  You probably wouldn't see any difference in
    the amount of light if you put 2-15 watt flourescent next to each
    other.
    
    -al

    
    	Re: .0
    
    	About a month or two ago I put one of those new compact
    flourescents in the light above our kitchen sink.  Before I put it in,
    my wife hated it.  (She has a historic aversion to flourescent lighting
    due to the old-style bulbs.)  After it was in for a few days, I asked her
    what she thought of it and her reply was the best I could have ever hoped
    for: she totally forgot it was a flourescent bulb.  We don't have any
    of the "1 second to produce light" problems cited in .1.  We flip the
    switch, the bulb flickers ever-so-briefly and it is on.  Unless you're
    really watching for it, it practically goes on like an incandescent
    bulb did.
    
    	I like the economics of the bulb.  Yeah, it costs a few bucks up
    front, but for a situation like our kitchen sink light where it is on
    straight for many hours a day (probably around 6 hours counting morning
    and evening), it using only 13 watts is a real nice deal.  We have 4
    60 watt bulbs in the basement ceiling that are going to be switched over
    to the compact flourescents once I get rid of the dimmer switch. 
    (Which we never use since we haven't converted the basement to a family
    room.)  I just wish that the technology allowed flourescents to be used
    on dimmer circuits since that is what we mostly have at this point.
    
    							-craig

    
    Good article on these in last months' Consumer Reports.  Some
    perform much better than others, some ballasts are better - worth
    reading before you buy.
    
    Colin
    

RE. -2 (Craig):

Are you using the bulb in a recessed downlight fixture over your kitchen sink? 
Does its brightness come close to that of a 75 watt incandescent reflector
flood? 

RE. -1:

Thanks for the pointer to Cons. Reports. Interesting suggestion in that
article: it's possible to maximize even further the $$ savings from these bulbs
by purchasing them through your local utility company, if it is one of the many
offering good deals on "high efficiency" bulbs. Anyone know if Public Service
of NH has such a program?

Brian

No, PSNH doesn't have a discount program for these bulbs.

I'd be wary of using them in a kitchen; most emit a bluish light which can
make food look strange.

				Steve

I like them in general where they can be used.  One comment I have is they seem
to be a little optimistic when they say a nn watt CF replaces a nn watt
incandescant.  They are definitely much more efficient than incandescants
but to me they replace the next smaller size bulb than what they claim.

Newer ones have electronic instant start ballasts which is nice, and they are
coming up with new phosphors that make nicer colored light (regarding the
funny colored food)

-Mike

Has anybody tried them outside?  I've a fixture under my garage roof overhang
where I screw in incandescents and I'm wondering how one of those will hold
up outdoors.  They're not cheap, so I hate to experiment with exposing them
to high humidity.  Would extreme cold keep them from working?

I'm also curious how they handle shock.  When I work under the car or in the
eaves of my attic, you know why they call it a drop light.  Mine eats bulbs
and I'm wondering how a compact flourescent would fair in a fall if shielded
from breakage of the glass.

    > Would extreme cold keep them from working?
    
    I have two in my bedroom. While I was asleep with the windows open
    one night a week or so ago, someone filled my room with WINTER!!
    BRRRR!!!!
    
    It took a good 30 seconds of flicker-blink-grunt-groan for the lights
    to finally spark up and light. Inside temp was probably about 45.
    
    I doubt they'd be much good outside during a New England winter.
    
    Edd

The ones I have don't work well when cold either.  Fluorescents in general
work poorly in the cold unless designed for it.  I have a CF in my basement
that's rather dim until it warms up.

The instant start ones with an electronic ballast *may* work OK in the cold.

re .8:

As to a drop light I don't think there are any fragile parts in a CF like with
the filament of an incandescant.  They aren't designed for rough services
though.  Have you tried the rough service bulbs intended for drop lights?

-Mike

    Re: compact flourescent in a drop light: not sure.  I have a drop light
    that is a flourescent tube shock mounted inside another clear plastic
    tube.  It is quite resistant to bumps and dings.  I don't know if a
    compact flourescent would be comparable; it probably would.  You'd
    have to come up with some sort of protective cage or cover large enough
    for it, as I suspect the glass of the bulb is pretty fragile even if
    there is no fragile filament inside.
    
    The shock-resistant "normal" bulbs work quite well in a droplight, as
    previously mentioned.  As you have found out though, the regular
    grocery-store variety do not take kindly to being shaken, at all.

    I use one outdoors in a fixture on top of a post.  When it first
    turns on it's very dim but it eventually warms up and comes up to
    full brightness.  Kind of like the sodium street lights.  It doesn't
    really matter since the light comes on via a timer (or with a darkness
    sensor) and stays on for many hours thru the night.  I used to
    run a 100W incandescent and it's been replaced with a 20W quad compact.
    It's been in service over a year now and I've had no problems.
    
    Boston Edison has specials on compact flourescents every once in a
    while.  I picked up 3 of them for $10 at Standard Electric during
    one of their promos.
    
    -al

	   The CF I use burns dimmer in cold weather but it works.  I 
	leave it on all night 'cause it's so cheap to run.

The comments on the effect of cold weather are correct.  Normal (ie 4' or 8'
tube type) flourecent fixtures can be purchaced for outdoor (ie cold weather) 
use.  They are  refered to as HO (for high output).  The bulbs and balasts are
different and not compatable with normal tubes.  

bjm

   Boston Edison is having some great rebates on CF's. The one that is offered
now lasts until sometime in December. There are a few places that have the
energy-efficient CF's and offer "Instant" rebates. Standard Electric is one
of them. Also there are many more that you can purchase the lamps, and mail
in a rebate form to Boston Edison (you have to be a B.E. customer though).

   In the compact florescents that I've seen, most are ones that operate
down to 0-degrees F., this is including some of the outdoor lamps. For 
recess lighting, if you don't have the room for flourescents, you can 
retrofit for Halogen lamps. They (I think) are more efficient than standard
incandescants.

   Also Electronic ballasts are much quicker to start up than mechanical
ballasts - which is one of the reasons why they are more efficient. Another
reason is that (I think) a 27-watt CF has the equivalent lumen rating as
a 90-100 watt incandescent lamp - probably saving 1k to 2k+ Lbs of CO2 from
being put in the air per year.

   There is a mail order company called Real Goods out in Calafornia that 
sells CF's, Halogens, and (more-efficient) incandescants. All are a little
more expensive but you can find things like retrofit lamp-harps that accomodate
the ne CF's at $3.00 ea.


/John

    
    	Re: .4
    
    	Sorry for the delay in a few days.  I haven't had much time to
    traverse this notesfile lately.
    
    >Are you using the bulb in a recessed downlight fixture over your
    >kitchen sink?
    
    	No.  We had one of those ugly globe covers hidden over the sink
    when we moved in that looked like this side view:
    
    		+------------------------+     <- ceiling
                |        ||||||          |
                |       /      \         |
       Board:   |       |      |         |
                |        \    /          |
                |         ----           |
                |                        |
                                         |
                                         |
                                         |     <- outside window
    
    The thing labeled "board" is a piece that connects the cabinets on the
    right and left side of the window.  It comes down far enough that
    unless you're standing right in front of the sink, you can't see the
    light fixture.  Since the flourescent bulb was slightly too big to fit
    into the globe, we simply didn't put the globe back on.
    
    
    >Does its brightness come close to that of a 75 watt incandescent reflector
    > flood?
    
    	I don't know since all I can compare it to is a regular 60 watt
    incandescent inside the globe.  I think the 13w flourescent gives the
    same amount of light.
    
    							-craig

    RE: .-1

>> From the same source, if the bulbs are used where it is cold, some success
>> may be had by mounting a grounded plate near the bulb, or by bringing a
>> grounded foil near the bulb until the bulb lights.
    
    Could you elaborate on this more?  What effect does this have on the
    bulb?  Does the grounded plate actually touch the bulb?

    -al

    Hi,
    
    Does anybody have more 'recent' suggestions for brands of recessed
    lights to go with?
    
    One CON to the Edison, that I saw at home depot, was that if you put a
    Halogen light in it, the neck is much shorter and makes the setup look
    terrible.  Others, I've noticed, have variable sockets so you could
    adjust the light up or down.
    
    Anyway,...I'm planning on doing a kitchen renovation SOON, so need to
    purchase some lights.
                          
    Thanks in advance for all your suggestions.
    
    regds,
    
    	John

I've looked through all the Electrical notes but there is nothing related to 
my problem.

Anyhow I have recently built a home, 3 years, and have install Colonial type 
Onion style lights on each side of my front door.

The front door is steel with windows.  This past summer I also hung screen 
doors with the spring hinge type closures.

The problem is I keep blowing out the light bulb on the right side light.

We use the clear bulbs.  The door shuts to this side and I figure the 
slamming screen is causing the bulbs to blow.

Is there any heavy duty type bulbs, or other options.

Cal

Try one of the rough service lamps. If that continues to blow start looking
for other problems like high voltage, loose connection etc. Loose connections
you can usually see when the light blinks but not not always. High voltage
problems get cured by installing a lamp with a higher voltage rating.

	I suspect this subject has a another going note elswhere in this file.

    Re: .0
    
    I've seen rough service regular bulbs...use them in my trouble light.
    I haven't seen rough service though for the type you mentioned.
    
    Don't slam the door???????
    
    Marc H.

    You might take the unit apart and check the contacts and the wires near
    the socket.  There might be some matter built up causing the lights to
    burn out prematurely.  I doubt slamming the door would cause the
    problem.
    
    Jim

I'll try looking for rough service bulbs.  

I did check the connections to the lamp and all seem good.

I figured that the vibrations of the door closing was doing in the 
filiments.

As for not slamming the door, yeah right tell two 17 and a 9 yr old 
not to slam the door!

Thanks,

Cal 

    Cal,
    You could always take the cost of new bulbs out of their allowance.
    
    TMW

    I can definately believe that slamming the door could cause the bulbs
    to burn out.  The bulbs on my garage door opener were going at the rate
    of one every few months.  I got some "special" bulbs (I think Genie had
    them packaged) for garage door openers about 5 years ago -- I'm still
    using them.  If you have trouble finding "generic" rough service bulbs
    to meet your needs, check out the area around the garage door openers
    at your favorite home center store.  I believe that the ones for garage
    door openers tend to have somewhat lower wattage than some rough
    service bulbs.

re: .0

I'm not familiar with Colonial type Onion style lights. Do they enclose the
bulb and is the bulb installed base down?

The reason I ask is that one of my previous exterior fixtures which enclosed
a base-down bulb kept blowing the bulb. What I found was that the fixture
was too air tight and condensation in the fixture would drip on the hot
bulb causing it to crack and blow prematurely.

Just a thought,
-Jack

I have an old night light which is great and want to buy more.  I don't think
it's manufactured anymore but want to find some equivalent.

It was made by Westinghouse, and it's called "Rayescent".  It's a flat panel
about 3/8 inch thick, it's about 2 inches square and has a plug right on the
back.  It doesn't take a light bulb: it emits a bluish light from the flat
panel.  The best part about it is that it draws only .02 watt, and the light
is bright enough to navigate around in the dark.

Does anyone remember these?  Does anyone know if some equivalent can be bought
these days?

-Chris

	I have a similar one that I got through Trix cereal when I was kid. 
Now my kids are using it. Still going strong. It's round though. But other than 
that sounds like the same technology. 

Wow - I had one of those when I was a kid and I loved it.  Haven't seen one
since; I wonder why not?

			Steve

    
    
    Spags carries and equivilent.  It is amber and 1/4 watt.  Plugs
    directly in the back, more snowflake like.  Just bought one, $1.99.
    
    /acb

Re: .3

Not even close to "equivalent".  The neon bulbs you refer to are ok (I have
one I keep in my travel bag for dark hotel rooms), but are not adequate
substitutes for a normal night light, nor do they give off anywhere near
as much light as the electrolumninescent panels.

				Steve

    
    
    Just plug in something else.......the Mirowave and the stove clocks
    are enough to light up the kitchen/dinning room.  Now If I could
    get them to flash at the same time.........................
    
    JD

    Not the same but it s cheap light 
    
    At BJs I got a 2 pack of 3.5" flourescent night lights gives off
    a lot of light (to much for me)
    
           Dean

    Re: .4
    
    Equivalent meaning it does not give off a lot of light, enought not 
    annoy you but enough to navigate in a otherwise dark area.  Sorry
    for not being more specific.
    
    
    /andy

	    I connected a compact flourescent to a screw in electric eye.
	The light bulb blinked severely and was deemed incompatible with
	the light sensing unit.  It must have something to do with the
	electronic switching.

					Tim

    
    I've been using a circular (22 Watt ?) compact flourcent bulbs attached
    to plug in timers in two fixtures for about 2-3 years now with no
    problems .                                                    
    
     Bob

RE: .20

    I expect part of the problem is flouresent lights, unlike incandescent lights,
    flicker at 60Hz; which matches the 60 cycle AC line frequency.  It would not
    be unlikely that this flicker would set up some form of beat with the
    circuitry in the photoelectric switch.  If the light itself were remote
    from the sensor, I don't expect there would be a problem.

What brand and style were the timers you were looking at?

Good timers (not the cheap household varieties that are all plastic with lousy
contacts) should work with those lighting units. There are a bizillion (new 
electrical unit of measurement :') ) installations of CF's in the commercial 
world that I'm sure are on timers. Another way around the problem is to have 
the timer control a relay which in turn controls the lighting power at the 
lighting distribution panel ("house" panel in your case). 

(I suspect that real reason the timers you were looking at aren't compatible
with the CF's is because the timer components aren't designed beefy enough
to handle the currents caused by the harmonics that ballasts and/or electronic 
ballasts tend to create.)

>(I suspect that real reason the timers you were looking at aren't compatible
>with the CF's is because the timer components aren't designed beefy enough

There are new(er) electronic timers that use a small amount of current
(flowing thru the bulb) to maintain the electronics (time and on/off
settings). The new CF's don't allow the current to flow, so the timer
won't work. 

An interesting side effect of this, it that the on/off setting are
lost when the bulb burns out and is replaced. You have to re-program
the timer. 

Charly

<There are new(er) electronic timers that use a small amount of current
<(flowing thru the bulb) to maintain the electronics (time and on/off
<settings). The new CF's don't allow the current to flow, so the timer
<won't work. 

	I hadn't even considered that aspect because I wouldn't have
considered those types for this application. (I beleive the type you mention
replaces a wall switch correct?)  I was under the impression that the project in 
question was control of common area lighting in a condo or apt building. 
My impression of the project may have been wrong....

In any case, in commercial/condo/apt building common areas I typically remove all
the wall switches, wire the circuits permanently on and control the circuit at 
the house panel with a good commercial timer. Less maint. no tampering etc. Of 
course if this is just a simple residence you might consider this overkill and 
inconvenient and I'm sure someone makes a timer rated for CF's that will do
the job. CF's have been readily available since at least 1979. 


Paul

>  I expect part of the problem is flouresent lights, unlike incandescent light,
>  flicker at 60Hz; which matches the 60 cycle AC line frequency.  

	    I beg to differ.  All household lamps receive the 60Hz current.
	They receive `no' voltage 120 times a second and are theoretically
	not generating any light.  In reality, the filament and/or gas isn't
	off long enough	to completely stop producing light but they will
	dim. 
	DISCLAIMER:  Some compact flourescents use electronic ballasts with
	inverters to create high frequency (kHz) voltages. 

    Thanks for the information so far...
    
    just for clarification of a few back. The photovoltaic eyes, and the
    electronic timers I was looking at are all 'replacement' types. they're
    designed to fit into and replace a switch. I was not looking at the
    commercial type of timers (yet :-). I wanted something that was
    not obtrusive in a common space hallway, and something that was easily
    accessible to change the on/off times. "ugly" commercial boxes
    in the common area entry and locating timers in the basement where the 
    main curcuit breaker is located lost out in the vote. :-(
    
    todd/// 

	    Attn. Mass. Electric customers:  Mail in rebates on mini
	fluorescents.  HQ sells the circline 30W (up to 150W light
	output) for $19.  Rebate for this lamp is $19.  It seems you
	can buy as many as 12 and get the rebate on all of them. $$$!

					Tim

    Everything old will be new again...
    
    NEW!  High-Tech Night Light Burns Cool, Cheap and Forever
    
    The same backlight technology used in laptop computers and aircraft
    instrument panels now provides a soft, soothing, green glow for
    nighttime illumination in hallways, bathrooms and bedrooms.
    
    Completely cool to the touch, no bulbs to replace, and uses less than 1% 
    the electricity of a standard 7-watt night-light (only .03 watts).
    Always on, costs under 2 cents per year to operate!  Unobtrusive at
    just 1/4 inch thick, so kids can't pull it out of the wall.  Lifetime
    guarantee; if it ever burns out, just return to the manufacturer for
    replacement.  2-3/4" square.  UL Listed.
    
    [The picture shows it plugged into one socket of a standard dual
    wall outlet; it covers only that socket leaving the other free.
    The actual emitting panel area looks to be about 2" wide by 1-1/4"
    high.]
    
    Catalog number 109975 - $14.99 each, 2 or more for $13.99 each.
    Leichtung "Improvements" catalog, 800-642-2112.
    
    						Steve

Fifteen bucks?  Yow!  I'm sure my parents didn't pay more that $1 or so way
back when.

    Just got the January Popular Science, and it lists this light as
    "The Limelite" made by Austin Innovations, 9907 Burnet Rd., Austin, TX
    78758.  Price given is $10.
    
    I've now also seen it in another catalog (same ~$14 price.)
    
    				Steve

Re: .26
> Rule of thumb is: The cheaper the dimmers are, the noisier they tend to be.

	You mean the dimmer itself will emit noise, or do you mean noiser
	in the electronic sense?

	I just installed my first track in my kitchen this week and have
	noticed a slight hum or buzz from the cans themselves.  And what's
	weird is that the buzz seems louder when I dim it.  I have 4 cans
	on the 4 foot track.  Each can is rated for up to a 75watt R-30
	which is exactly what I put in each of them.

	Is this buzz normal?

What you have noted is typical.  Dimmers operate by changing the duty-cycle,
the ratio of on to off.  As you dim the bulb, the filament is receiving pulses
of power 120 times per second; as the pulse gets shorter, the filament
heats up and contracts causing vibration you hear as a buzz.

The dimmer itself can also buzz for much the same reason; it can also be
emitting RF interference; both due to it switching the power on and off
very quickly.

					Steve

> What you have noted is typical.  Dimmers operate by changing the duty-cycle,
> the ratio of on to off.

	Thanks for the info, and I learned something new (I didn't know that's
	how dimmers worked, I thought they may of worked by lowering the
	voltage and/or current).

> As you dim the bulb, the filament is receiving pulses
> of power 120 times per second; as the pulse gets shorter, the filament
> heats up and contracts causing vibration you hear as a buzz.

	Guess I'll learn to live with it.  Any chance someone makes a
	R-30 sized bulb whose filiment doesn't vibrate?  It already
	costs me $2.50 a bulb, it may be worth a little extra money
	for a quiet one .....

Do dimmers deteriorate?  We have a dimmer that's started causing bulbs to buzz.
It didn't used to.

    I've seen dimmers go bad like that, yes.
    
    			Steve

    

    The light in our kitchen, with fluorescent u-shaped bulbs, began having
    problems a few weeks back. The initial problem was a startup problem,
    ie the bulb would not light. A repeated on/off would sometimes light.
    Now it either wont light at all, or does light for a short period and then
    flickers then goes very dim. I've looked at the ballast and see its a
    0.8amp, A noise rated, self enclosed. The bulbs are dark on the
    connecting ends. How do I tell if it is a bulb problem or a ballast
    problem? The bulbs are $20.00 apiece, so I'd rather be more informed 
    prior to swapping one of the other.

    	The ballast is probably ~8 years old.
    
    Thanks
    mike

The symptoms and description of the bulb don't sound promising. Darkened
ends means condensed mercury vapor, if I'm not mistaken. If the vapor
pressure has dropped significantly, there's not enough to light your
bulb reliably. Can you not take the bulb to a store which handles
similar fixtures and ask them to try it in a known good fixture
with a known good ballast?

-Jack

In my basement shop there are 3 incandesent light bulbs and one 8' florescent
fixture.  I plan to replace the  incandesents with some florescent 4' double
shop lights that I have and probably add a light or two. Can I just wire the
florescent fixtures in or do I ned to be concerned with a change in load?  The
circuit is a 15 Amp line.  Do you figure the load for a florescent fixture the
same way as an incandescent?

George

	    A 4 foot flourescent lamp uses 40 Watts.  A shop light will use
	(40x2+ballast loss) about 80 Watts.

					Tim

 For two tubes at 40 watts per tube, there are at least 80 watts.  My shop
 ballasts get *hot*, they also dissipate power, anyone have an idea how
 much power ballasts dissipate?...another 80 watts?

 Bruce

I have some shoplights from Home Depot.  The box claims that they use something
like 69 watts.  The wording sounds like they mean the _total_ wattage, so I
suspect they're just lying.

I was at Home Base last night, and a display of "energy efficient"
flourescent ballasts caught my eye.  According to the boxes, a "normal"
ballast for 2 4' 40w tubes can use 35 watts.  One that can be labelled
"energy efficient" (EPA definition) can use 25 watts (I think; I'm not as
sure on this one), and the electronic ballasts use 15 watts.

A half-decent flourescent fixture (i.e., not shop lights), will be "energy
efficient", and so should use (40 * 4 + 25 * 2) = 210 watts.  Still a lot
less than incandescent equivalent.

I have to be back to Home Base at lunch; I'll try to remember to check those
numbers.

Sears in Nashua, NH has the "Lime Lite" for $5.  It's in the hardware
department, near the garage door openers.

-Chris

    
    Home Depot also sells them for around $4 (I think). I have three in 
    the house and will be getting more... really great nightlights. They
    don't light up a room but they provide enough very soft light to see
    your away around in a room without waking up. :-)

    
    	The new Citibank Citishopper offers them at 3/$15 [$5 each].
    

I bought three for $15 through "Shoppers Advantage" (run by CompUCard, same
people who run CitiShopper).  They sure are bright.

				Steve

    
    	Maybe I shouldn't have been so quick to throw away the mailer,
    	huh?
    
    	8^)
    
    	Maybe next time.  Or maybe I'll call them and order them anyways.
    

    
    
    >>>Unobtrusive at just 1/4 inch thick, so kids can't pull it out of the
    wall.
    
      Well my 1 year old daughter found a way.  I had it in the hallway
    but had to remove it. 
    
      I must say, they are a more appealing thing to look at then a regular
    night light.
    
    
    -Dean 

    This looks like a good spot for my question (time to re-open this
    note).
    
    I'm looking for a comtemporary lighting dealer in NH or MA -
    specifically I'm looking for one with a large display of contemporary
    lights.  My wife and I have looked in several places from Westford MA
    (Westford Lighting) to Concord NH (Ralph Pill, The Lighting Place),
    though they seem to have a very limited section on contemporary lights.
    
    Any suggestions would be most helpful...
    
    			Ike
    

There's Electric Candle Lighting Center in on route 110 in Chelmsford - I've
found a lot of nice things there.  See their ad under lighting in the Nashua
yellow pages.

				Steve

For the benefit of those stumbling across this note, Standard Electric closed
their Nashua store (referenced in .1) a year or so ago.)  Too bad.

				Steve

Electric Candle in Chelmsford is closed now too.

fwiw, I think it's an ice cream shop - Baskins & Robbins or
Carvel.

Large furniture stores might have a decent selection.
Levitz? Jordan's? Bradfords?

If you ever get to Natick, there's a pretty big lighting
fixture place on route 9 Eastbound near Oak St.  I can't
think of the name of it right now.  It might begin with an "H".
I think it's just before Bradford's Furniture.

In Marlboro, on rt 85 (405 Maple St).  Gentilotti's Lighting Showcase at
Marlboro Electrical Supply.  Lots & Lots of contemporary lighting on display.
508-481-4221 
hours (from the 90-91 phone book) daily 8-5, thursdays to 8:30, Saturdays to 2 

    Gentilotti's is now J.D. Daddarios.  Also in Newton and Franklin.
    
    

    Neena's in Burlington, right near the Burlington Mall is excellent.
    Prices are fair, the display is excellent and they seem to have quite a
    bit of stock.
    
    

    Thanks for the suggestions, Guess I have a bit of driving to do this
    weekend :-)
    
    		Ike
    

    I'm not sure if this is the best notes file for this, but
    thought I'd give it a whirl
    
    I just acquired a free Tensor Light.  I think the reason it
    was free was that it's close to impossible to find bulbs
    for it.  At any rate, while I was looking I met a person
    who told me that he'd had the same problem and simply
    gave up.
    
    So, does anybody in the Boston area know for certain of
    a place to get bulbs for a Tensor Light?  The bulb
    number is supposed to be 1133, 25 Watts.  (There's
    a number 93 bulb, but it's not acceptable.)
    
    What's the connection to this conference?  Of course I
    intend to use it for DIY stuff at home.
    
    Thanks in advance,
      Rich
    

    Go to an automotive supply house (NAPA, etc). Tensor lamps use 12v
    bulbs, often the same as brake lights or turn signal lights. From the
    era when those lamps were popular, the bulb numbering system changed,
    but a parts house should have the cross reference. Probable cost to
    replace will be around a dollar or less.

Just out of curiosity, what *is* a Tensor lamp?

-Hal

    .2:
    
    Illumination for a theoretical mathematician?
    
    Dick

    re .2 >>>>Just out of curiosity, what *is* a Tensor lamp?
    
    It's one of those lamps that has a transformer in the base
    and a long segmented arm so that you can aim the light
    directly at something.  The light can be switched to
    Hi, Lo, or Off.
    
    They were fairly common a few years ago, but are not being
    sold any more.

        I'll second the auto place - I've used 12v auto bulbs in a couple
        of lamps (and the reference earlier to a #93 prompted my memory -
        that's one of the ones I've used) so you'll stand a good chance
        of finding something compatible of the same wattage.
        
        Andy
        

i'll be interested if you find a place you like better than 
Westford lighting. if you do please post.

jim

    Well, did a whole bunch of looking over hte weekend and into the early
    part of this week.  For biggest selection, I would say that Wulfer's
    gets top honors.  For ultra-contemporary, try Prizma in alston (?).
    
    Neena's of Burlington seemed to have a subset of Wulfer's.
    
    It looks like we are going to be ordering something out of a catalog. 
    Some things to watch out for:
    
     	--  If you can, look at several catalogs of the same company.  
      	    Different pictures give different feelings.  We thought we had
            a light picked out and then we saw it from a different view and
     	    lost all interest.
    
     	--  Call around for prices!!!  We've found, for the identical lamp,
     	    prices ranging by nearly a 100% (e.g., $400 in one place, $750
            in another)!
    
    We are still looking, having gone to Wulfers at Standard Electric in
    Waltham this morning.  It's a long road.  Glad I'm not trying to do an
    entire house.
    
    			Ike

    
       If your in Acton, you can try the Quill & Press on Route 27 near
    Route 111 intersection. That's where I used to get mine.
    
        Mark

    re .6
    I had tried Quill & Press but they only had a few dusty #93's.
    
    However, in the meantime, the problem has been solved, but not
    in the expected manner.  It's a tad amusing.
    
    Last Friday PM I happened by a lighting store in Westford.
    After waiting for several minutes (too many customers, not
    enough employees...) I was finally at the top of the queue
    and the owner waited on me.  I said I hoped he had the bulbs
    but also said I expected that he wouldn't.
    
    Well, he gave me a mini-course on low voltage lightbulbs.  It turns
    out that there are three standard low voltage bulbs in the US.
    They're number 93, number 1133, and one other that I can't remember.
    Some of them are used in low voltage outdoor lighting, such as
    in gardens.  Some of them were used in Tensor lamps back in the 70s,
    etc, but basically all of them are readily available, as he
    showed me on his display stand.  So I picked up a pair of 1133s
    for $1.50 and went home anxious to start enjoying my free Tensor
    lamp.
    
    Fit perfectly in the lamp.  Just one problem... the lamp doesn't
    work!!!!!!!!
    
    

    We are putting on an addition which will be 30X16.  Half of the room
    will have a pool table with a three light fixture above it.  The other
    half of the room will be the TV/Family room area and will have a
    ceiling fan with lights.  The ceilings will be eight foot.  
    
    The couch will be placed in the middle of the room, away from any
    walls.  We need to figure out a way to get lighting there without
    running cords across the floor.  I don't think the fan light will be
    bright enough and that could also be annoying to people in the room who
    just want to watch TV and don't want the whole space lit up.  We're
    thinking of recessed lights (we already had Trak lights in another room
    and these wouldn't be a consideration in this one).  Questions:
    
    	Can recessed lights be directed toward a specific spot on a couch? 
    Can they be redirected if furniture moves around?
    
    	Should the fixtures be located in the center of the room?  (Spaced
    evenly in the 15X16 line?)
    
    	Can outlets be put in the floor of a room?  (Instead of recessed
    lights?)
    
    Thanks for any suggestions!
    
    Linda N.

You can get "eyeball" recessed lights which are aimable.

You can put an outlet in a floor, but I don't recommend this as once you've
done it, you're stuck with it there.

Recessed lighting sounds like the way to go to me.

			Steve

Go to a real lighting store (not HD or HQ) and see what they have.  As Steve
mentions, eyeball trims can be used to direct the lighting where you want.  I
just put in eight of them on my first floor - to get rid of the need for all
table lamps on a switch.

As for the floor outlet - they are not that bad - the are not cheap though (if
you get the good ones - brass cover etc...) sure you are stuck with it but it
is at the same level as the floor so it is not too noticeable on a wood/tile 
floor - carpet - well forget it....

bjm

    
    I'd also suggest looking into low-voltage lighting. That way you 
    can use a number of well positioned lights to provide light to 
    specific areas. Personally I'd love to rip out all the recessed 
    lighting and track lighting in my house and replace it all with 
    collections of low voltage lights.
    
    							      - Mac 

    .404:  What is low voltage light?  Would it work in the design I
    mentioned?
    
    Thanks,

    
    
    Low voltage lighting systems consist of a transformer (usually
    installed above the ceiling) that services a number of very small
    compact fixtures via low voltage wiring. The fixtures come in all
    sorts of styles (pin spots, wash lights, tiny eyeballs, halogens). 
    Most of the types I've seen are 2" or so in diameter and mount flush 
    with the ceiling such that they are practically invisible.
    
    Very convenient to wire, very flexible layout options and minimally
    sized hardware. They aren't cheap, but my basic rule of thumb is to
    not scrimp on anything permanently built into my house. If bought 
    from a lighting dealer such as Standard Electric expect the transformer
    to sell for $80 or so and the fixtures will range from $40 on up
    depending on features.
    
    If you're a This Old House fan, they used a ring of 5 low voltage lights
    surrounding a focused low voltage pin spot to illuminate a dinning
    table beneath a cathedral ceiling once. It was in the Lexington ranch
    that they converted to a large contemporary.
    
    In my opinion, typical recessed lighting fixtures are obtrusive and 
    ugly (I have plenty in my house). As are track lights. Both are
    functional and LOOK functional... not attractive. I'd prefer to have 
    my lighting be nearly invisible except for lamps and chandeliers that
    are meant to look nice as well as perform.
    
    								- Mac

Hi,

We have a chandlier in our eat-in kitchen area.  This chandelier uses five of
the decorative, bent tip bulbs and has one central regular(?) bulb.  The central
bulb was fused out since we had the house.  Well after several months, I finally
did get around to picking up a spare bulb for it.  The bulb that was there was
an indoor reflector (R 40 I think)...got a similar bulb at Home Depot.  In two
days, this new bulb was gone!  So, took the bulb back to Home Depot and
exchanged it.  Well, a few days later, this one is also gone!!

I am convinced that there is something wrong with that particular slot - anyone
know how I can find out for sure?

Thanks!

Check the bottom connection in the lamp socket.  Often times this is loose for
what every reason and causes a "constant arc" which ends up, in effect, turning
the bulb on and off hundreds of times - and that will cause a short life span.

bjm

There has to be a bad connection in there somewhere.  It's time to take it
apart.  If you can't find anything after taking it apart, it's time to
replace the socket.  BTW, before you disassemble it, put a voltmeter on it
to see if you are getting 110V at the socket.

Jim