Conference 7.286::home_work

							Bill Jackson
							8 Belmont St
							Newton MA, 02158
							(617)244-9034


Editor:


In a  letter  to  the editor (Saturday, April 5) Carolyn Davis surmises that
illegally installed water heaters may have been the cause of tragic fires in
the south end of Boston. She then goes on to state that it is a violation of
state laws for any homeowner to install water heaters in their own homes.

It is,  in fact, illegal for non registered plumbers to install any plumbing
system  in  the  state of Massachusetts. Why? Because the plumbing lobby has
convinced  the  state  legislature  that  homeowners are not competent to do
anything  on  their own, especially when it takes money out of the pocket of
their  peers.  Many  times,  I  have had work done by 'professionals' that I
could have done, and probably done a better job, but I was not allowed to do
the work.

For any  homeowner to do a proper job when installing plumbing or electrical
systems  in  his  own  home,  he  must  be  aware  of  the  proper codes and
installation  procedures  that  will  insure a safe installation. Cities and
towns  all  have  building  inspectors  who  inspect  the installations when
completed  irrespective  of  who  does  the installation which should insure
proper  installation.  Today many installations go unchecked, mainly because
permits  cannot  be issued without the work being done by a professional. If
homeowners were permitted to do their own work, they would be more likely to
get the work checked by the building inspector when it is completed.

I am  not advocating that any and all homeowners be allowed to do electrical
or  plumbing  work  without any regulation, or do work on homes that they do
not  own.  Regulations  which  allow  homeowners to do their own work can be
enacted  and  enforced. Unfortunately, passing such regulations will require
the  support  of  the 'professionals' whose pockets will become lighter as a
result of such regulations. Can you say "conflict of interest"?

  Better change "lighter" to "heavier" in the second-to-last line (it is
  your pockets that will be lighter).  Aside from that, right on.

  JP

    According to the building inspector in Townsend, MA, it is legal
    for a home owners to do their own wiring and plumbing, as long as
    a building permit is obtained and the work is inspected upon
    completion.
    
    However, this legal right is often overruled (in effect) by the
    local building inspector.  Some are happy to approve owner-done
    work; others will always disapprove non-professional work.
    
    The latter attitude seems to be the classic "cover your own ass".
    If an approved installation turns out to be a problem, the inspector
    takes the heat.  Professionally-done work, therefore, presents less
    of a risk to the inspector.
    
    -- Ward

    Mass. law may require plumbers and gasfitters to be licensed, but
    it does not require you to hire licensed plumbers or licensed
    gasfitters.  The requirements are set by each town, if the town
    requires you to hire licensed plumbers (or electricians) then
    you have to, but if they don't require it you can do it yourself.
    I think her letter was misleading in this area.
    When I lived in Lowell I was told (by the gas co.) that the city
    required licensed plumbers to do water pipe, but not to do gas
    pipe.  They also told me how to install my new stove myself, and
    where to get the materials needed.  There wasn't even an inspection
    by the city (but the gas co. did come and inspect it for me before
    turning the gas back on).
    
    jim d.

    I recently finished off the basement in my split and when it came
    to getting the electrical permit, the bottom had a space for the
    electricians name and another for the license number.  I asked the
    building inspector and he told me to sign my own name and under licence
    number to enter "homeowner".  
    
    We was quite helpful and told me exactly what he would be inspecting
    and the quality of work he expected.  It only cost $7 (I think) for
    the buiding and electrical permits.  I didn't do any electrical
    work.
    
    Jim Pappas

    You may also want to check your homeowners insurance.  If you do
    electrical and or plumbing (gas), is your policy still in effect?
    Will the insurance still pay if you DIY your house to ashes?
    
    Bill D.

    It seems that different communities allow different things.  (I'll
    have to change the letter to reflect this)   For example:  Newton
    (where I live) permits electrical work , but not plumbing (of any
    kind!)  Sudbury doesn't permit anything, it must be done by a licenced
    'professional'
    
    
    oh, well.  Back to the editor! (pun intended)
    
    -bill

Ok, here's the latest cut (and the one that will go to the globe tomorrow
morning)  It clears up the issue of it being illegal to do your own
work, and has a little better grammar.
    
    
    
							Bill Jackson
							8 Belmont St
							Newton MA, 02158
							(617)244-9034






Editor:


In a  letter  to  the editor (Saturday, April 5) Carolyn Davis surmises that
illegally installed water heaters may have been the cause of tragic fires in
the south end of Boston. She then goes on to state that it is a violation of
state laws for any homeowner to install water heaters in their own homes.

Contrary to what MS. Davis would have us believe, the state of Massachusetts
does  not  have laws regulating homeowners doing electrical or plumbing work
in  their  own houses. Some cities and towns do regulate the installation of
plumbing  and  electrical systems based on the laws of those cities. In many
of the cities in towns, it is illegal for non registered plumbers to install
any  plumbing system Why? Because the plumbing lobby has convinced the local
legislature  that  homeowners are not competent to do anything on their own,
especially when it takes money out of the pocket of their peers. Many times,
I have had work done by 'professionals' that I could have done, and probably
done a better job, but I was not allowed to do the work.

For any  homeowner to do a proper job when installing plumbing or electrical
systems  in  his  own  home,  he  must  be  aware  of  the  proper codes and
installation  procedures  that  will  insure a safe installation. Cities and
towns  all  have  building  inspectors who inspect the work to insure proper
installation   irrespective   of  who  does  the  installation.  Today  many
installations  go unchecked, mainly because permits cannot be issued without
the  work  being  done by a professional. If homeowners were permitted to do
their  own  work,  they  would be more likely to get the work checked by the
building inspector when it is completed.

I am  not advocating that any and all homeowners be allowed to do electrical
or  plumbing  work  without any regulation, or do work on homes that they do
not  own.  Regulations  which  allow  homeowners to do their own work can be
enacted  and  enforced. Unfortunately, passing such regulations will require
the  support  of  the 'professionals' whose pockets will become lighter as a
result of such regulations. Can you say "conflict of interest"?

    I think an important point to add is that the requirement for work
    to be done by professionals is often an open admission that the
    inspectors are either not competent or do not have enough time to
    do a real inspection.  The feeling seems to be that if you require
    a professional to do the job, you probably don't have to worry about
    carefully inspecting the work.

    In the town of Franklin where I live you are required to hire a
    licensed plumber to do any plumbing work but you can take out your
    own wiring permit. This makes sense to me too since I recognize
    that I am much more likely to die from drowning on my second floor
    from a sink that is improperly hooked up than I am from an electrical
    mistake. :-)
    
    Paul
    

    RE: -?  (insurance coverage)
    
    When I finished off the rooms in my basement,  I checked with my
    insurance rep (MetPay in Hudson MA) to be certain that my insurance
    was still valid.  I was careful to tell him that I had obtained
    a permit and had my work inspected.  He said that it really did
    not make any differance if it was inspected or not; I would still
    be covered.  He was happy to raise my coverage for the additional
    rooms though.
    
    Jim Pappas

    RE:.10
    		Do you *really* believe you'd drown before you'd burn!!!!
    I have never considered (and never will) believe plumbing could
    or would kill me! Or even hurt me for that matter. On the other hand, 
    electrical disorders are a frigthening thought!!! 
    
    RE:.11 
    		Interesting that your insurance company told you
    that. My insurance company said, they don't care who installed
    it, as long as it was inspected. They said that if damage was 
    done to my house by work I did (and I could legally do) and it was
    the cause of the accident, it won't be covered unless it was 
    offically inspected. Hmmmmm. Anyone else checked with their 
    insurance companies lately?
    					/Glenn Tremblay
                                       

    Re: .12
    
    	You'd *better* believe plumbing can kill you.  Stink pipes can
    give off deadly gases, that's the reason for traps.  Knowing the
    necessary codes for such things as chimney connections are also
    a must for obvious reasons.
    
    This is a case of "do what I say not what I do".  I just got done
    remodeling our kitchen and had the building and electrical inspectors
    check it out, but decided to bypass the plumbing inspector.
    
    					Steve
    

    I was of the opinion that when the town required a plumber/electrician,
    you could do it yourself, then have a plumber/electrician inspect
    it and sign the permit.  It is fairly expensive to get them to certify
    your work, but often cheaper than if they did it themself.
    
    Phil

    Re: .14:   This practice is called "borrowing the license".   I've
    heard of it being done.   I inquired of the subcontractors that
    built my house, and to the last one, they refused.   Think about
    it.   If they inspect and miss something, you could sue them.  I
    doubt you'll find anyone willing to do it in this day and age.
    
    I view the whole thing as a way to protect the union. (Noone asked,
    just my opinion.)
    
    By the way, according to my plumber, a licensed plumber is the only
    one that can call for the inspection, and you can better believe
    he will.   This gets the building inspector into your house.   Now,
    you've done something else (say electrical).   The inspector is
    likely to take note of this, and ask to see your building permit.
    The building inspectors also speak to the tax assessors...  TANSTAAFL.

>    The building inspectors also speak to the tax assessors...  TANSTAAFL.

    Not in Newton!  It's sort of funny, sort of depressing.  Our house
    is ZONED 2 family, but is assessed as a 3 family.  Now that's not
    that bad, cause rumor has it there's a bunch of folks who have 'in
    law' appartments like us who are going to file a class action suit
    against the city because they've collected taxes based on 3 family
    zoning, while the building department only has the properties zoned
    as 2 family.
    
    Should be interesting!
    
    
    -bill

    
    	I would like some info on Parlor heaters... Does many
    apartments/homes have then now?  Are they efficient?
    What's the scoop?  The apartment I will be occupying does
    have one, That is the only source of heat..which means
    all the dodrs to all of the rooms must stay open in order
    for all the rooms to get heated.  Also It is a space hog.
    I t takes up about 3' x 3' of living space.  
    
    			Help me out folks.
    				Niece
    

    
    I've heard them called space heaters. They're gas fired and sit
    in a room and are vented into a chimney.  We used to have one at
    the apartment we rented and it worked really well. I think that
    depends largely on the layout of the rooms.
    
    It does tend to dry out the air during the heating season, so we
    used to keep a pan of water on top of it to help increase the humidity.
    
    Ray

    Oh the memories:
    
    When my wife and I were in college, we were living in a very, very
    old house with:
    
    	1) No insulation.
    
    	2) No central heat.
    
    This 3 bedroom house had a gas space heater in the living room and
    a stove with built in heater in the kitchen (I'm told the proper
    name is gas and gas stove).  Our bedroom would get sooo cold that
    we would go to bed with wool hats on.  The following winter, we
    moved our bed into the living room (next to the space heater) and
    our couch into the bedroom.
    
    This place was owned by an uncle who was letting us live there rent
    free.  Although the the price was very attractive for a starving
    college couple with no real income, I really can't say that it was
    worth any more than we were paying :-).
    
    Luckily for us, the following year, my parents took a consulting job
    out of the US and needed a house sitter. 
    
    Jim Pappas  

    Justy a thought...if you do the work CORRECTLY (i.e. according to
    all codes and standards, who's ever going to know a professional
    didn't do it?
    
    Steve

    
    	re .17  That's EXACTLY how anyone can tell an amateur's work,
    it is according to all codes and standards and also has the look
    of, "took a lot of time and effort to do this RIGHT".
    
    	Reg
    

It's not the inspection that's the problem, it's getting the permit in the 
first place.  Towns that require a licensed person to do the work require the
license number as a prerequisite to getting the permit.  No number, no permit.

Paul

      I am trying to locate information on a gas type heater.  I own
    a split enty style of home. The upstairs of the home is well taken
    care of as far as heating.  What I am seeking is information from
    anyone who has knowledge/experience/source-of-infornmation on gas
    style of heaters for my home.  The area I need to heat is a family
    room, bathroom, and bedroom.
      I'm not looking for a gas style forced hot air but more so a "space"
    style heater.  There is such a creature, isn't there?  
      Where does one find information on such heaters?   Is it better
    to go to a company to that does installations/maint./service?  
      One other consideration is I would have to go thorugh a concret
    wall to access the out side world in regards to venting the stove
    and supplying gas form tanks. (I have read some information about
    the "joys" of going thorough concret fondations for any reason,
    in another HOME_WORK notes.)  That alone has almost completely
    discouraged me form pursuing this any futher but being a strong
    headed person.....
    

    
    As far as I know gas space heaters are still available. My
    mother-in-law had one installed in her apartment 2 years ago.
    
    I think you could get one through the gas company or a plumber (I
    suggest having the plumber or the gas co. connect the the heater
    up for safety/insurance reasons).
    
    Ray

      I had a "gaslog" (warm morning) in an apartment when my wife
     and i got married. It was great! In the kitchen we had a gas&gas
     stove. 4 burners, oven, and a gas heater on the side. Both were
     efficient. We also had a large bowl of water on the heater to 
     add moisture.
     

    I put a gas space heater into my Maine home. Its about a 3x3ft sq
    box that hangs on an outside wall. It needs a 12" dia vent hole
    through the wall and a copper line tothe storage tanks.
    
    I bought it from Sears, about $300 +- as I recall. No big problem
    to install.
    
    Ron Ginger

    
    I live in a split and have a 30,000 BTU gas space heater in the
    lower level.  It's brand name is Warm Morning, and many of the gas
    companies appliance sales departments sell them, along with some
    appliance stores (in my area Dracut Appliance on Lakeview Avenue
    sells them). They *do* have to be vented, and they are a very good
    nearly maintenance-free heater.  We use it to heat the entire lower
    level of the house, and with with a ceiling paddle fan over the
    stairway we bring a lot of the heat upstairs too.  As a result we
    do not use the furnace at all, relying on the Warm Morning, and
    wood (which gets stoked up when we're home) to do the entire house.
    
    Also the heater is pretty economical.  I don't have any efficiency
    figures, but my highest gas bill to date, including hot water and
    cooking was about $80.
    /Dave

    
    Are these suitable for use in a workshop, where there's lots of
    sawdust and thus, the potential for a dust explosion?

    Since a gas appliance needs a source of air and has an open flame,
    I wouldn't want to put one where I might have a chance for an
    explosion.  I would feel safer with a stove where the fire is enclosed
    and the amount of air reaching the fire is limited.
    
    bb
    

    
    RE: .4 -- Good question, probably not.  In my case the basement
    is about 75% -- 25%, the 75% representing finished area, which is
    where the heater is located.  The chimmney pipe goest through the
    unfinished area close to insulation and another conrete wall for
    about a six-foor run.  Now this pipe is usually only warm to the
    touch (even when the heater is burning), but your point is well
    taked; I certainly wouldn't want an open flame of that size near
    sawdust.  Currently my tools are in the garage, but when I do stir
    sawdust up in the cellar, I vacuum immediately.  Perhaps the best
    (and only suitable heat in a flammable environment like you speak
    of would be running a duct off a hot air system, or running some
    sort of a forced hot water arrangment into the area.
    
    /Dave 

    By doing the plumbing to the radiator myself, and using an old
    radiator I had lying around, it cost me only about $400 to add
    a new zone for my shop to my FHW heating system.  The $400 covered
    parts including the new thermostat and circulating pump, and the
    cost of having somebody come and do the hookup to the boiler.  (I
    ran 3/4" copper tubing from the new radiator to within a few feet of
    the boiler, then let my oil burner guy take over.)  The convenience
    and safety of the setup is well worth the $400.  I thought about
    a woodstove, kerosene space heater, etc. but they just didn't seem
    like a good idea in a shop filled with paint thinner and other
    assorted flammables.
    
    Steve
    

    
    	Re  "dust explosion",  I think these only happen when a very
    high temperature (though sometimes very little energy) is reached,
    as in sparks from electric motors or metal to metal contact.
    
    	Reg
    

    
      One additional question.  Do the gas heaters have a thermostat
    control and do they require a constant pilot light?  I seem to recall
    hearing of an "electronicly" controlled starter or "spark" that
    is used on demand.  This is supose to prevent a constant need for
    a pilot flame which I think is a draw back for having a gas type
    heater.  Is anyone familiar with such a device?

    My gas space heater from Sears would be fine in a dusty area. It
    draws its combustion air from the outside, thru the firebox and
    thenback out the stack. The connection through the wall is a tripple
    wall metal pipe, the incoming air cooling the exhaust gas so it
    can go through a wood wall. The box all this is housed in then gets
    hot and radiates its heat into the room, helped by a couple fans.
    Id try to draw this but not with character graphics!
    
    The unit is controlled by a wall mounted thermostat, has a pilot
    light and in all respects behaves just like any hot air furnace.
                                
    Ron

    RE: 9 -- most units do have a thermostat, either remote, as .10
    or on the unit as in my Warm Morning.
    
    As far as not having a pilot light, and having electronic ignition
    this is little blessing as far as I'm concern.  Trouble here is,
    one of the beauties of gas is that it doesn't rely on electricity.
    The year before last we lost our electricity for about five days
    after a winter storm.  I had heat, hotwater, and was able to cook,
    because all of my appliances have piot lights.  Also, the amount
    of gas that a pilot light uses is a minimal expense.  Some of the
    newer appliances have a provision to override the electronic ignition,
    but not many of them.  For example my oven is a Kenmore, pilot lights
    for the burners, and electronic ignition for the oven.  When I'm
    without electricity, I cannot use the oven.  A couple of weeks ago
    we were looking at new gas ranges; some had manual overides, but
    the majority of them did not.  So I'll continue to use units with
    pilot lights, pay the gas company the extra few pennies to operate
    them, and not have to worry about what to do when the electricity
    goes out.  BTW, you would shut the pilots down in the warmer months
    anyways.
    
    /Dave
    
    is not w

    Speaking of space heaters, I just received a recall notice from
    Honeywell, which sells gas controllers to some heater manufacturers.
    
    It contains dire warnings of explosion or fire, and instructions
    for inspecting your gas controller to see whether it's the offending
    model. (Mine isn't.)
    
    So if you have an LP (yes, this is LP only) heater or water heater with
    a Honeywell gas controller (that's the contraption that the gas line
    goes into, with a big knob on it for the pilot light), and hasn't
    received this notice, I'd be be glad to send a copy. 

    					Val

    re .11	I had thought (hoped ?) that most of the pilotless ignition
    systems were pietzo (sp ?) electric devices.  Anyway, gas central heat
    is almost always dependent on 110 V A/C, for either a circulating fan
    or pump.  A DC conversion would probably be fairly easy on a forced hot
    water system, but tough on a forced hot air installation.
    
    	Reg
     
     

    	Has anybody had any experience w/ those new "disc" heaters??
    they are making some fabulous claims for them.  Such as, will heat
    a 20'x20' room up to 70 degrees while outside temp is 30 degrees,
    and cost roughly .79 cents a day for (electricity).  I stopped in
    at Aubuchon Hdwre in Sudbury and they had one running, it was putting
    out some heat but it didn't seem likely that it could match the
    claims I had heard.  The price was 149 bucks, and that didnt seem
    right either!!
    

    Infact, it seems to live up to all that it claims to be. Yes,
    $150-$200 seems high for one of those, BUT, that IS the CORRECT
    price!!! It uses a new technology of heating. Try touching the
    case. It is nice and cool, EVEN THOUGH IT IS A METAL CASE! The heat
    is ALL going efficiently into the air. The blower is also a
    ultr-high volume unit.
    
    I would guess that it takes some getting used to, BUT, it
    does exactly what it says.
    
    Mark

    My wife gave me on for Christmas.  I have been using it in the
    basement.  
    
    The basement is larger than 20'x20'.  The ceiling and the wall
    common to the garage are insulated, but otherwise it is bare
    concrete.  Also, it gets some heat from the furnace.  During the
    past four weeks it has been mostly in the 20s.  It will not heat the
    basement to 70 degress, but enough to be comfortable to work.
    Usually, about an hour or two at the highest setting is sufficient.
    
    The pluses are:
    
    	It distributes the heat much better than an oil filled heater
    
    	It heats more evenly than the nichrome wire heaters and makes
	me feel safer
    
    	It is very small, light, and portable
    
    	Doesn't get very hot
    
    The negatives are:
    
    	The price, about two to three times alternative heaters
    
	The advertising implies (my reading) it puts out more heat than
    	other heaters.  This isn't so.  It puts out 1500 Watts maximum
    	which is pretty much standard 

    I am not sure about its safety around flamables.  
    
    So, while I prefer it to oil filled and nichrome heaters, the
    price is high. 

    Watts are watts!  Those little disco heaters change 1500
    watts of power into heat.  Big deal.  My bathroom heater does that too,
    and for a lot less initial $$$.  The big deal with these disk heaters
    is their small size.  Be forewarned, 1500 watts will cost you just
    as much electricity no matter what type of heater you have. They
    aren't any more efficient at converting power into heat, they're
    just smaller than their 1930 counterparts.  
    
    They work, but why pay the price. 
    
    ...bill

    re: .4
    
    Agreed!  In term of efficiency, ALL resistance heaters, be they 50 year
    old Nichrome or brand new ceramic disk, are the EXACTLY the same (i.e.
    100%).  Any additional heat that the new ones produce is caused by
    friction when your money rushes out of your pockets to purchase one. 
    
    I find the ads for them to be very misleading and would never ever
    consider buying one on moral grounds alone.
    
    -joet

    I agree with .5 and further more believe that these heating units
    will that the same road as the "Quartz" heaters of only a few years
    ago. Remember the quartz heaters were initially priced around $100
    and after a year or so you couldn't give them away. The only thing
    I like about the new disc heaters is it's size and forced circulation
    characteristic. I feel that it may be good for quick heat in the
    basement or garage and will probably pick one up when the price
    drops to about $20..... their true value!!

    Re: .4, .5, .6:
    	YES!  Watts are watts are watts, and the laws of thermodynamics
    have no exceptions.  
    	 Using electricity for heat is a waste - both of money and a
    very useful form of energy.  My engineering professor argued that
    turning a low-grade energy source (coal or oil) into electricity,
    a form of energy that is very versitile and useful for a wide variety
    of tasks, and transmitting it hundreds of miles only to turn it back 
    into heat, was basically dumb.

    regarding .7:
    	Yes, in that scenerio it 'sounds' dumb, BUT IT ISN'T AT ALL.
    
    You neglect to take into account that everyone DOES NOT HAVE THE
    MEANS to use coal or oil and hence, nessesity dictates not only
    an inefficient conversion and re-conversion, but a higher cost to
    the end user. THIS FOLLOWS EXACTLY WITH THE *REAL WORLD*! People
    pay for convienence, and as long as they are willing to pay,
    someone will provide.
    
    (No flames, just wanted to inject some of the *REAL WORLD* reasons...)

    Electric heat is OK.  I take offense to people trying to sell me
    a "more efficient" electric heater.  Would you buy a more efficient
    tooth pick?   
    
    Electricity is still a spookey mystery to a lot of people, I'm just
    a little annoyed when this is exploited with lies.  I was just as
    upset when quartz heaters hit the market.  They were marketed the
    same way with claims of lower electric costs, more efficient heat,
    etc.  All due to some new hi-tech discovery from Sweeden or somewhere.
    
    
    I'll be quiet now.....

    
    Does this new heater actually heat the air? If so, I agree with
    all preceeding negative comments.
    
    A few words in defense of the quartz heater: it seemed to be a good
    idea, badly implemented. Designers of concept homes for the future
    seem to think that radiant heat will be used because of it's
    efficiency, which is based on the fact that radiant heat does not
    heat the air, but objects that absorb the radiation. This is, I
    believe, the idea upon which the quartz heater was based - it's
    problem was that the radiation was not dispersed enough to create
    a comfortable living environment.
    

    there's still a fallacy in the logic expressed in .10 - you can
    heat the objects instead of the air, but then if the air is cool
    the objects will lose heat to the air and you just end up heating
    the same air only indirectly.
    
    The comment about "...the radiation was not dispersed enough to create
    a comfortable living environment" seems to make that same point.
    It reminded me that we define heating performance in terms of comfort,
    and since we really are mostly in contact with air we will not perceive
    the environment as comfortable if the air is too cool.
    
    There is a factor that might be the basis for the concept mentioned
    in .10, because there is a perceptable difference in comfort due
    to radiation from the body to cooler surroundings.  But I'd expect
    that it will be much less important than the direct loss by contact
    with cooler air (otherwise I'd be more comfortable outside my warm
    house in these subzero tempertures :-).
    
    So I'd think that claims for inherent advantages for one specific
    design of this type of heater over another are pretty dubious. 
    The addition of a high-capacity blower might be helpful for heating
    more air in the same time, and distributing the heat, but that won't
    improve efficiency - 1500 watts is still the same amount of heat
    however you spread it.

    
    re .10
    
    There may be a misunderstanding here. My "logic" was:
    
    1. Anyone who can create a heating system that heats the object
       (us) rather than the environment (the air in our houses) will
       probably have created a more efficient system (microwave oven
       as proof of concept).
    
    2. Some futurists have declared that radiant heating systems will
       be the wave (non-pun) of the future, because radiant heat so
       neatly fits the requirement above (disregard microwave energy
       because of possible health hazards).
    
    3. The quartz heater, though it worked on the radiant heat principle,
       did not create a comfortable environment, thus making it less than
       a smashing financial success. This failure was possibly due to
       the creation of radiation shadows which caused uneven heating
       of the object ("Why is my left bun toasty and my right bun
       freezing?"; microwave ovens were not successful until they
       solved a quite similar problem).
    
    The practicality of radiant heat has already been demonstrated in
    a limited sense, in that may newborn and premature babies spend
    their first hours in such an environment (no parallel for microwave
    ovens here).

    Point is, I wasn't trying to sell off an overstock of quartz heaters,
    just taking exception to an implication made in note .9, that you
    just can't make a more efficient electric-based heating system.

    My uncle is the pastor of a church in rural Nebraska.  The church
    is an old one with high ceilings.  A real pain to heat.  He had
    radiant heaters installed in the rafters of the church.  It greatly
    reduced the heating the church.  Turn them on during Mass, and the
    parishoners feel warm.  Turn them off afterward, and the church
    is cold.  Anyone who's been out sunbathing on a cool day and had
    the sun go behind a cloud will know what I mean.  

                                                August G. Reinig

    I have recently been in the process of building a Bow House.
    
    One of the "preferred methods" of heating offered by this
    company is the infrared radiant heaters which are imbedded
    in the ceiling plaster. This is "preferred" esoterically
    because of the style of the house [read as:no central heating
    that can be perceived.]
    
    Anyhoo, they had this setup in one of their model homes that we
    viewed last February when the outside temperature hovered around
    20 degrees. Did we feel warm in the model home? Well, we "felt"
    that something was attempting to warm us. Something akin to August's
    sunbathing on a cool day, however, it seemed to be very directional.
    For the ambiant sensation was clearly _COLD_, I believe it was
    probably about 60 in the house. We opted for a conventional system.
    
    I would tend to agree with .11 [?] on heating comfort directly relating
    to sensory perception. One of the reasons that a super-insulated
    house can be more comfortable is that the surrounding surfaces are
    warmer [including the air] which tend to make us perceive a greater
    sense of "warmness" even at lower temperatures.
    
    Charlie

 I'm thinking about buying a portable kerosene heater for heating portions
 of my home. anyone have any experiences or information that they'd like to
 share before I make a decision?

 I'm concened with the issues of 'smellyness' and 'saftey'. 

 Thx. - Ed

    In Massachusetts, they're illegal to use "in places of human
    habitation" (legal term for "in your home"!).  That's because
    they'll use up all the oxygen in an enclosed environment, give
    off oderless carbon monoxide if they're not burning correctly,
    and become a fire hazard if ....
    	o  they're placed to close to a combustible surface
    	o  have fuel spilled on their hot parts during refueling
    	o  somehow get tipped over (some *do* automatically shut off
    	   if this happens but on some, fuel still spills out)
    	o  (others?)
    
    On the other hand, they're a great source of localized heat!  By
    heating only the area that you're working in, they allow you to
    turn down the general heat.
    
    Jim
       

    I have a Corona kerosene heater.  It's got electronic ignition and
    starts very easily.  I've always used it near an open window, otherwise,
    I'd get a headache from it in about 30 minutes.  The open window works
    well though.  It heats up a 20x20 room in about 15 minutes.
    
    I used it while I built an addition on my house last winter.  It
    does shut off automatically if it falls over or gets kicked hard.  
    
    I never left it on when I wasn't around.  I wouldn't recommend that.
    
    I bought it last winter at County Store in Milford, NH for $149. 
    I live in Mass. and don't really want to use it anymore (for obvious
    insurance reasons).  Let me know if you want to buy it for $85 including
    a 5 gallon can.

I have used a Sears 20,000 BTU/hour for several years.  It cost $119 then.  
Kerosene costs $1.30/gal and a gal lasts maybe 4 hours.
Pros: clean (not smelly), efficient (you get every BTU you pay for), quick,
convenient, portable. 
Cons: lugging and pouring kerosene (and do you know where to get it?),
cleaning (several times a winter), illegal in Mass (of course I use mine 
only in my detached garage).

> I'm concened with the issues of 'smellyness' and 'saftey'. 

The only smell occurs on shut off and I would call it 'noticable'.  Less 
after it is cleaned or 'burned off'; more if you are neglecting it.

Safety is completely proportional to common sense.  They are HOT.  If there
were children around I wouldn't use one.  Never pour where you wouldn't
mind wiping up; spill on a rug and you have the biggest wick in the world. 
Never fill until cool.  Never leave unattended or sleep.  And on and on... 

re: .1

They are illegal, but it is my opinion that it is because one idiot in a
tenement could kill innocent neighbors.  This is already such a common
situation in Boston that the people making laws therefore made them illegal
for everyone.  I called everyone from police to insurance to fire dept to
find out what would happen if the house burned while I had the thing in the
basement for STORAGE; not one of those suckers would give me an answer. 

re: .2

If I got a headache from one I'd either fix it or get rid of it.  A 
headache is what you get from running a car in a closed garage (before you 
go to sleep); these things are supposed to burn 99.9% efficient. 

Regards,
Craig

I've got a Sears which I bought about 5 years ago. It has a removable 
tank (1.1 gal) and electric (battery) ignition plus a fan to help move 
the warmed air (a real plus). It will produce 9500 BTU/hr while burning 
that 1.1 gallons for 18 hours.

re: odors...if you use fresh K1 kerosene there aren't extremly noticable 
odors...when it gets up to operating temperature, there are no odors at 
all.

re: safety...What we do is put the heater inside the fireplace behind 
the screen. It serves two purposes. First, it's away from the kits and 
kats. Second, I open the flue when I start it and it exhausts what small 
odors there are up the flue...which is closed as soon as it reaches full 
heat (about 5 minutes).

To purchase one in New Hampshire, you need to go to your fire department 
with the model number of the unit you're interested in. If it's an 
approved model, they issue a permit to purchase which you take to the 
dealer. When I bought mine, I lived in a rental house. I also needed 
written permission from  the landlord.

    they have been outlawed in this state for use in any living space,
    
    that includes the basement.
    
    jim

>    To purchase one in New Hampshire, you need to go to your fire department 
>with the model number of the unit you're interested in. If it's an 
>approved model, they issue a permit to purchase which you take to the 
>dealer. When I bought mine, I lived in a rental house. I also needed 
>written permission from  the landlord.

    Is this new this year?  I didn't need to do this last winter.
    

RE: .7

"I live in Georgia, and ... we do get some pretty cold weather here"

re: .6

Guess they changed the 'law' or the dealers aren't forcing the issue. As 
I said, I bought mine 5 years ago. I believe the main reason the fire 
department wants to know is in case there's a fire, they have some idea 
as to the probable cause and what kind of heating units are in use. Of 
course, it's my WAG.

Chris

    we (including myself) gave you the best info we're aware of.
    
    how about calling the local authorities in georgia....
    
    
    jim.

    There are now units on the market with an external air supply and
    external venting for fumes. No more smell period....
    
    They are not exactly cheap.
    
    Rochettes oil in Merrimack, NH sell this type and Bedford True Value
    sell the same type, different brand.
    
    Merle

    
    I have had a Kerosun for ~5 years. My nose picks up any smell and
    is usually allergic to most of them. I felt the Karosun was the
    only bearable unit on the market at the time. We nose tested a few
    others that didn't pass my test. Don't know what's out now.   We 
    start the Kerosun outside, like in the garage. We'll let it warm up 
    out there and it burns off all the initial smell.  We tried the start 
    in the fireplace idea but still thought we got too much residual odor. 
    We don't keep it on while we are away. The safety of it can sometimes 
    be annoying because just a bump into it will turn it off..and it also 
    stinks when it goes out.  I love it for supplemental heat, in the spring
    and fall when you hate to use your furnace/boiler and it has been
    wonderful in power outages.   This year we converted from using
    coal as our main source of heat. The Kerosun was the perfect addition
    on very cold days when the coal stove couldn't do the entire heating
    job. 
    
    

    
    	If you would be willing to consider a more permanent solution
    I'd like to suggest the Kerosun "Monitor" in either 20K or 30K BTU'S.
    They receive their air supply as well as give off exhaust thru a
    2" manifold pipe that mounts thru the wall ( they also have a window
    kit). I have had mine for a year installed in my garage/workshop
    which is 825 sq.ft., and I can maintain a constant temp whatever
    I set the thermastat on. There is no odor of kerosene as the combustion
    chamber is a sealed unit. I paid about $465.00 last year but I believe
    this years models are considerably higher, but I think they work
    well. From everything I have heard about them, they are completely
    legal in a home do to the outside exhaust.
    
                         My $00.02    Dick
    

One more point about radiant heat.  One should be careful about how you define
"efficiency".  Engineering types (myself included) tend to think only about the
theoretical 100% conversion to heat.  However, one could also define it in terms
of how efficiently do we deliver the heat to where it is needed, ie. to our 
bodies.  Regarding the last few replies, I think the bottom line is, what will
you be doing when you are being heated.  If you will be sitting in church, or in
front of a TV by a wood burning stove, then the radiant heat is certainly 
adequate, as long as you insulate the side of you that isn't facing the source.
On the other hand, if you will be working in a basement, moving around, then it
gets difficult to keep warm from a single radiant source and it pays to heat the
air. 

One other idea comes to mind.  You can improve the comfort of an environment by
increasing the humidity, thereby reducing the evaporative cooling from the skin.
Given two otherwise equal rooms (same temperature), the one with the higher
humidity will generally be more comfortable, assuming there is no condensation.
HOWEVER, if you start with a room at X degrees temperature and turn on a
humidifier, the humidity will go up BUT the temperature will go down as a result
of the evaporation of the water.  Thus, whether the evaporation takes place on
your skin or in the air, the results will be much the same.  There is one more
point to make and that is that by running a house at a higher humidity and lower
temperature, the temperature gradient to the outside will be lower, thus there
will be less heat lost to the outside air. 

Dave

ROOM HEATER FOR BABY'S ROOM?

A friend asked me about advice on what kind of heater could be used to warm
up a small room about 10x10 to be used as a nursery.  Any suggestions?  
What about those new-fangled ceramic element heaters that I've been seeing 
lately.  I don't know what they are called, but they are amazingly small, 
and claim to be efficient.  (About 9" square with small blower in back).

Thanks,

David

    Consumer Reports did a study on those ceramic heaters, and found
    them no more efficient than any other electric heater - in other
    words, 100%.  They are, however, hideously expensive.  CR also found
    that they didn't have much capacity for keeping a room warm.
    
    I'd be very reluctant to use any sort of space heater in a nursery.
    
    				Steve

    I SECOND THE COMMENT ON NOT PUTTING A SPACE HEATER IN A NURSERY.
    
    Babies rapidly become very curious toddlers who can get into things
    in the blink of an eye and get seriously hurt.   

    This has come up before and is more a subject for the parenting
    conference but...
    
    It is the opinion of some (and I agree) that keeping a nursery warmer 
    than the rest of the house proves nothing.  Babies don't need
    temperatures different from adults, even if you turn your heat way
    down at night.  You are more likely to do harm by overheating them.

    And people wonder why my kid's skin is blue :-)

>    It is the opinion of some (and I agree) that keeping a nursery warmer 
>    than the rest of the house proves nothing.  Babies don't need

Ah yes, I agree.  However, we do use an el cheapo convection heater (looks
like a large toaster on wheels) at night in our toddler's (now 2-yr-old's)
room.  Because we keep her door closed at night, and the amount of fhw
baseboard in the room is inadequate (upstairs in a cape with full-shed
dormer), the room becomes much colder than the rest of the house without it -
we need the heater to keep the temperature at 65.  The extra electricity is
cheaper in the short term than having a plumber come in to add more
baseboard.  This doesn't mean I'm happy with it.

We turn it on only at night, when she's imprisoned in the crib.  I don't
know what we will do when we take the side off the crib - perhaps
investigate electric baseboard heat (which I feel comfortable installing
myself).

And there's the fact that adults tend to sleep under blankets but it takes
a while for babies to learn to pull the covers up if they wiggle out of them 
and get cold.  Heating the room can be simpler than keeping the baby in
"blanket pajamas" that can't be wiggled out of.

Sorry for the digression; I do agree with the basic point.

    I have also been wondering about this topic. We have a large house
    which I don't want to keep fully heated at night. This has never
    been a problem in the past because my wife and I have a nice toasty
    waterbed.
    
    However, my 7 month old daughter doesn't have a heated water mattress
    in her crib. And she doesn't keep the blankets on. The flannel sleeping
    sacks help, but her room was COLD last night!
    

    We have an oil filled radiator in our daughters room to augment the
    central heat.  An oil filled radiator is safe, it doesn't get
    uncomfortably hot to the touch; and inexpensive, ours was about $50. 
    They disperse heat by convection, which is not as effective as a
    fan.  
    
    The disk heaters work well, but are expensive and Pelonis early
    campaign was less than honorable.  They are compact, don't get very
    hot, and the fan disperses heat better than an oil filled.
    
    Absolutely avoid any heater that has an element that gets hot. 
    They are a hazard not only to little fingers but to thrown toys and
    cloths.  I think all nichrome units are in this catagory. 
    
    Gary

I'm missing something here.  I have a header with the elements well 
behind a fairly fine metal grille - like a coarse screen (I got it at
SPAGS for $30 a few years ago i think the brand name is ARVIN).  There
is no outside surface, including the face, that is hot to the touch. 
It shuts off when you knock it over.  If you child is in a crib, why
is this unsafe?  


BTW: In fact, if you child is in a bed, why is this less unsafe than,
say, a lamp?  Both are plugged into the wall, and can cause shock or
burn if you stick things into them?? 

    
    RE: .7
    
    >We have an oil filled radiator in our daughters room to augment the
    >central heat.  An oil filled radiator is safe, it doesn't get
    >uncomfortably hot to the touch; and inexpensive, ours was about $50. 
    >They disperse heat by convection, which is not as effective as a
    >fan.  
    
    Actually, the oil-filled radiators disperse heat by radiation, 
    which is not as effective as a fan, which disperses heat by 
    convection.
    
    -tm
    

    Well, the oil filled ones work by both natural convection and
    radiation. The fan forced ones work mostly by forced convection.
    
    You don't need a fan to have convection, you just need a density
    dif.
    
    gjd
    

re .8:

Lamps are dangerous, too, but heaters are more dangerous because:

    1)  Lamps don't tend to be turned on in baby's room when adults aren't 
	in the room, eg at night.

    2)	Lamps tend to be on high surfaces so they don't get things dropped
	on them or draped over them.

    3)	Similarly, a crawling baby cannot stick its fingers into a lamp 
	without first pulling it down with a crash.  But even with an
	adult watching, a crawling baby can get at a heater - they're fast!

Re 2: Imagine accidentally dropping baby's clothes on the floor heater.
It isn't tipped over, so it could come on and fry the clothes.  The smoke
alarm may not come on in time for you to get into the room and get the
baby out.  An unlikely event, it's true, but parents of babies tend to get
paranoid about their babies' safety, and why not?  

Bottom line: there are lots of alternatives to heating elements, so it is
better to keep things that get burning hot out of reach of young children.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

      Another idea is a radiant panel electric heater.  These do get hot
      enough to be concerned about a child's touching them, but  not  as
      hot  as  a  electric element type heater.  However, the panels are
      made to be hung on the wall (or even ceiling)  so  that  they  are
      safely  out  of  the child's reach.  They have the added advantage
      that they take zero floor space.  Some of them are design to  look
      like a framed picture and actually are reasonably attractive.
      
      Unfortunately I have not experience with these and cannot tell you
      about cost to purchase and/or to operate, or about  how  effective
      they are.

    I'd like to reopen this discussion....
    
    I'm looking for a small electric heater to warm 'the coldest room in
    the house'. 
    
    I'm comparing a $19.00 'toaster coils' unit to a $129 Pelonios 'ceramic
    disk' type..... watts and BTU's are in the same range (1500 w.  5200
    BTU's as I recall.
    
    Other than the safety features discussed in previous replies, what are
    the pros and cons to 'disc furnaces' and 'toaster coils'.
    
    BTW Grossmans has a heater on sale for $50 that's 'similar' to the
    Pelonios. It's MAXI heater or something like that, that claims solid
    state heating elements, and has a samll fan.....
    
    Any way, pros and cons and efficiency ($$$$ wise) is my question. Jim.

    
    Pick up the latest Consumer reports. Big article on exactly what
    your looking for in all price ranges.
                                               Bill

    When I was at B.J.'s in Salem N.H. about 2 weeks ago, they had ceramic
    heaters for under $50.00.  They looked like the same ones I've seen
    in any other store for much more.
    
    Chris D.

I have the November 1989 Consumer Reports article here.  They said that
although ceramic heaters are safe because the element can't get hot enough
to burn, they don't distribute heat or maintain temperature very well.

They also said at list price of $100 and up they're not worth the money.

The convection heaters are much better at heating a room and much cheaper.

The Arvin model 29H40 was the number 2 rated overall and a "best buy" at $35
list.  It had excellent stability and noise ratings.  

The safest model was the Arvin WH10, which is only 7x7x4". 
It has no power cord, but plugs directly into the wall outlet.  
It can't tip over, if you knock it it becomes unplugged.  This was the only
model rated excellent for safety.  However, it was only 1000 watts so would
heat a smaller room like a bathroom.,

These are both convection heaters which heat the room air, as opposed to
radiant heaters which heat objects in the room.  Convection heaters provide
more even heat.

The radiator-like heaters are safe but have poorer heat distribution than
the fan driven convection heaters.

Bill Norcott

The following heaters were rated UNACCEPTABLE by Consumer Reports due to a 
severe fire hazard.  They put a piece of terry cloth on them and it started
a fire in less than 12 minutes.

	Arvin 60H8106
	Presto 07892
	Robeson 03-2701A
	Sears 36013

ALL of the quartz heaters tested were unacceptable.

Bill Norcott

    Has anyone tried an electric baseboard heater (plug-in type) that
    Somerville Lumber and Grossman's advertises, in a nursery?
    
    Bo

  Are you referring to the water-filled "Softheat" heaters? If so, we
  just installed some of these in our family room (they come in both
  plug-in and permanent models). They don't get as hot to the touch as
  other electric heaters, and it doesn't seem to me that they would
  cause a second-degree burn (one which blisters). But they still get
  pretty hot. If an infant or toddler touched one, they would certainly
  run away crying, though not injured.

>>    < Note 2671.16 by STAR::NORCOTT "Wakarimasu ka?" >
>>                    -< Summary of Consumer Reports article >-
>>
>>The Arvin model 29H40 was the number 2 rated overall and a "best buy" at $35
>>list.  It had excellent stability and noise ratings.  
  
    Does anyone know a store that carries the Arvin heaters?
    
    Bo

    A few years back my mom was looking for a heater for her porch. Not 
    insulated, all sliders.  She wanted just enough heat to not 'freeze'. 
    We ended up with an oil-filled electric radiator.  I think the heat it
    produces is FANTASTIC!!  It warms the porch very evenly, as opposed to
    coil-type heaters that you can't stand to be in front of, but aren't
    usually warm enough to be away from.  It takes about an hour for the
    oil to warm up once you first turn it on, but it maintains the heat
    well and is pretty cheap to run.  In a house that already warm, it's
    probably only take 20 minutes to warm up.
    
    	We got it at Lechmere.  It was somewhere between $70. $100.00 
    The other thing I like about it, is I really don't think you could burn
    yourself on it.  It's a LITTLE warmer than a regular radiator at
    'medium' heat.  Also, it LOOKS a lot nicer than other heaters I've
    seen. (off white, about 2 feet wide, 3 feet tall, 8-10 inches deep)
    
    I can find out the brand if you like ....
    			GOOD LUCK!!
    
    			Patty

    Re: .20 about where to buy Arvin heater...
    
    I notices this weekend that Sears carries them!  I assume this would 
    be nation-wide.  Check out hte Home-Improvememt section, where they
    carry water heaters, thermostats, etc.
    

    To answer my own question in .20, both Service Merchandise and Prime
    Value Mart carry the Arvin 29H40 heater.  It's a nice little unit,
    for only $25 at these places!
    
    Bo

    I'm looking for info on oil or kerosene heaters made by Moniter.
    I don't know much about them but I think they're small permanently
    installed space heaters. I didn't see anything in any of the
    HEATING directories about them.
    Does anyone have one, or know who sells them?  
    
    Dave
    
    

    >If I remember right they had monitor 20, and monitor
    >30., the diffenece being one could be attached to an external fuel
    >supply.  
    
    That sounds like it.  
    Let me know what you find out.
    
    

    I own two Monitor heaters to heat my second home.  My newer model is
    a Monitor 20, which has a 3 gallon tank that slides in thru the
    top of the heater.  Where my heaters are used as a primary heat source,
    they are directly connected to a 275 gallon drum.
    
    The newer heater was purchased from the Stove Barn on Loudin Road,
    Concord NH.  Unfortunately, they do not service the units.  I just
    found a new dealer in Laconia (Contractor's Supply 603-524-2309)
    which does both sales and service.  
    
    The owner of Contractor's Supply told me that they are extremely busy
    with both sales and service......(I would bet as a result of the
    high electric rates with PSHN).
    
    Before you purchase a heater, please make sure that K-1 fuel is
    available in your area!  If you use a cheaper grade, the heater will
    tend to carbon up.  

    	Anyone use/know/comment on vented Oil space heaters, specifically:
    
    o Are the code legal in MA?
    
    o Are they more/less dollarwise-efficient, to run than bottled gas
      heaters?
    
    o Are they safe to run?
    
    /Dean

    To the best of my knowledge **VENTED** oil space heaters
    are valid in MA.
    
    Some years back we were investigating the possibility of
    using a kerosene space heater. We found that the unvented ones
    were not legal, but that vented ones were. But we never
    bothered to get one for various reasons.
    
    Can't say anything about cost or efficiency
    
    Should be perfectly safe.

    I just built a two story barn attached to the end of my two car garage
    and I want to install an LP gas space heater.  Does anyone know if a
    ventless (no vent) LP gas heater can be installed in Massachusetts?  It
    can be installed in most states especially if it is a non-living area,
    like a barn or garage.
    
    A ventless gas heater requires no chimney, no vent through the wall,
    and no electricity, unless you add a blower fan option to it.  The
    ventless cost $300 vs. $500 for a direct vent heater.  So I would like
    to go with the $300 ventless since it is for my workshop in my barn.
    
    
    Dave

    Funny, I was just looking at these in a Sears catalog the other
    evening.  I believe the blurb was that they could not be sold in
    (among other states) Massachusetts.
    
    Call your local fire inspector and ask him; he'll be the one who
    would have the "official say".

    RE: 1
    
    Like Kerosene heaters they cannot be sold in Mass, but one can mail
    order them, or go to NH to buy one.  The restrictions are about the
    same though.  They are not suppose to be used in Living areas.
    
    
    Dave

To buy a kerosene heater in NH requires a permit.

			Steve

    
>>To buy a kerosene heater in NH requires a permit.
    
    That's only in Nashua. You can buy one in Manchester.
    
    Mik

    Merrimack and Bedford require a permit.  when I picked mine up
    a couple of years ago, the fire chief in Merrimack said it
    was a NH regulation (if my memory serves me correctly).  Basically,
    you pick out the unit you want, then go to the fire station where
    they look the model number up on their "supported" list, and give
    you a permit to buy it.  If the model isn't on their list, they
    call a central NH point to check on new models or exceptions - but
    if they don't feel comfortable with the model you wanna buy, they
    don't give the permit.  Note that they don't have any permit
    for USING it, just BUYING it.
    
    andy
    

    My bedroom in my apartment does not have a heater in it, so it gets
    very cold in the winter when I keep my door shut.
    
    I think I'd like to get a space heater for the room to keep it warm.
    Any recommendations?
    
    What are the safest?  Are their any with temperature controls?
    Timers?
    
    What are ceramic heaters?
    
    Any help would be greatly appreciated - it's getting colder every day.
    
    -Scott

Try notes 1343 and 1348 in LYCEUM::CONSUMER.  Also notes 716 and 3641 here.

    Thanks for the pointer Gerald.
    
    -Scott

    I've had a lot of experience with this lately.
    
    Oil filled radiators are the quietest, but you may not like the looks.
    All other heaters have difficulty in maintaining any particular
    temperature. The problem is that their thermostats, (if they have them)
    are too close to the heat source to accurately sense room temperature.
    the result is that you end up either too hot or too cold.
    
    	There is one heater that is different made by Holmes. It costs
    nearly twice as much as conventional units (~$70 vs ~$40) but I think
    it is worth it. It has an electronic control and a temperature probe
    that sticks out the top. The unit is designed like a tower and is
    designed to put into (near) a corner. BJ's warehouse carries them.
    
    	Whatever unit you get, I strongly recommend one that has electronic
    controls and separate temperature probe. All heaters are going to be no
    more than 1500 watts, All heaters are 100% efficient. The only real
    decision that you need to make are wether or not you like the
    features/looks/noise level of a particular heater.

Stay away from the infrared heaters.  Are they even made anymore?  These are
the ones with vertical glass rods.  They don't heat the air, they just heat
whatever they hit.  So, you sit there in front of one with warm skin that has
cold air circulating over it.  Waste of money.  We tossed ours even though it
was in working condition.  We called it the cold heater.  

The oil-filled radiators are the best.  It's like having a warm hunk of metal in
the room with you.  One good deployment is to put it under the kitchen table
as a reasonable facsimile of those wonderful Spanish tables with a charcoal
burner built in.

    Has anybody had any problems smelling exhaust using a ventless gas
    heater?  I have one that uses a power venter. Now the unit works fine
    when the power ventor is on (e.g when the furnace is on blowing hot
    air).  However, all of the other time when the pilot light is burning
    the exhaust has nowhere to go but out into the cellar and house.
    
    Is this normal with pilot lights? And/or ventless gas furnaces?
    
    -Gary
    

    I have 1/2 my basement finished and am now looking for what I can do to
    heat it.  We have FHA gas heat and I'm considering putting in some kind
    of gas heater downstairs that could be used only when we wanted to
    heat the are but I have a question on venting.  Is it legal to vent
    the heater through the sill rather than the foundation?  I'd rather cut
    a hole through wood than the concrete foundation.  I woul expect that
    if it is legal you have to use some sort of heat shield to protect the
    wood.  Has anyone done this?
    
    What is a good source of heaters in the Nashua area?
    
    Thanks,
    
    George

    	See note 2006.73.
    
    	Ray

    > See note 2006.73.
    
    	I looked.  Ouch!  Over $300 for a vent?  Do you really need a chimney 
    or something like a power vent for a gas space heater?  I expected a much 
    less elaborate requirement - maybe a 3" or 4" pipe through the sill. 
    If you really need that much venting I may just put on another
    sweater.
    
    George

    
      Why not simply cut into the existing run of duct and install a
    louvered vent that you can close when you don't want to heat the area?
    
    				Kenny

    	I had a gas space heater in my other house and it was just a direct
    vent. This also had to come out of the back of the unit. Direct vent
    kits would only be about $75. Sears used to sell them, and still may,
    for the Thermar tank-less hot water heaters, but this may not be code
    and/or apply to your situation.
    
    	If you call someone like Petrolane or a similar outfit, they can
    probably answer this and maybe even install one for you. Our whole
    heater installed was $500 for a 35k BTU LP unit.
    
    	Ray

    re .17
    
    I thought of that but the furnace is driven by the thermostat
    upstairs.  I don't think that the cellar would ever warm up to a
    comfortable point.
    
    George

    RE: .19
    
    I have the thermostat upstairs, and vents in the basement....basement
    is as warm as I want.
    
    Marc H.

    I looked for a 'Where Can I buy' note, but came up dry.
    
    I am looking to build a portable, gas fired heater. I need to find a
    12v fan - probably prefer a squirrel cage fan, but I guess just a
    propeller fan may do. Need something that will move a fair amount of
    air.
    
    Any suggestions on sources for this kind of fan?

    
    
    They sell propane fire portable heaters.  Some are stand
    alone and some are like torpedo style.  Prices range from $50 to $200.
    
    JD

    Building a preheater for the plane???
    
    I did the same thing a couple of years back, call me if you want
    details.  As for a fan, I bought a 12v VW heater boost fan from JC
    Whitney.  About $35 as I remember.  Works great, I pump ~450 degree 
    air into the bottom of the cowling.  Takes 15 minutes to get things 
    warm.
    
    Ken

    Locally = So. New Hampshire
    
    Electronic surplus dealer such as ESS in Manchester or RST in Hudson
    might have something. I've seen all sorts of fans and blowers at ESS,
    some 120V 60Hz some 12VDC....
    
    Peter Duke
    

    
        I'm looking for a source for a "Tick-feed" style portable
     propane heater. This is the type you would see a drywall or
     painting contractor using on a construction site. It is a
     sheet metal cylinder about 2 foot tall, 10 inches in diameter
     and has a conical cap on it. Inside it is nothing but a large 
     gas flame that you can adjust from a small lever. Where would
     a contractor go for one of these?
    
                                            Randy

Try a good plumbing supply like Capitol in Nashua, Concord or possibly Hammar
industrial might have some, they have kerosene salamanders. You could also call
the retal stores around. Just about all of them rent them...maybe some are also
dealers. Do-all Rent-all in Milford NH has a lot of them. Give them a try.

Don't ask for a tick-feed heater ask for a propane fired mushroom type heater. 
They'll know what you're talking about.

later

Paul

    I got one at a plumbing supply place a couple months back.  They  are 
    great, no kerosene smell on start up  or shut off.  This thing puts out
    250,000 BTUs per hour, to protect the floor I put a 2'X 2'piece of 5/8 
    fire code sheetrock under it, works fine.  It cost around $150.00
    
    
    Paul

    I would like to re-open this topic.  I don't read this file very often,
    so please forgive if there is another more appropriate string.

    This will be my first winter in my current residence.  My son's bedroom
    has no heat.  I am thinking of getting a portable heater for him but I
    am concerned first with safety, and second with cost.  He is seven
    years old.  Are the disk heaters discussed still in good favor?  Are
    oil/gas filled heaters safe for a child's room?  What, and where, do you
    get an oil/gas heater filled?  Which is cheaper to run?  

    
    Leave the door open and get him an electric blanket.
    

    Been there, done that.  The room is still much colder than the other
    upstairs rooms.  And this is only November.

Re: .24

The oil-filled electric heaters don't get hot enough on the surface to burn
(unlike the fan-forced heaters I've seen).  The biggest problem I had at the
time was the kids turning up the thermostat.  There is no "filling"; the
unit has the oil sealed inside (the oil is only used as a heat transfer
medium).

All electric heaters are "100% efficient".  Infrared heaters might be
cheaper because they make *you* feel warm without having to warm the air.
The highest-power that I have seen for portable units is 1500W, so figure
the cost based on your local electric rate (1.5 * cents/KwH * hours).

    Thanks.  I didn't realize that the oil filled were electric.

    
    There are also electric heaters that look like the built in baseboard
    style heaters. They come in various length, and have a thermostat.
    These also, do not get hot to the touch, but will warm a room
    nicely, by convection. With no moving parts, and no noise it may 
    also have no interest for little ones.
    
    Pete

    I've seen those and wondered about them.

    So, what I'm hearing is that the things I should look for are:
    	- a fan of some sort
    	- not hot to the touch
    	- a thermostat that is somehow removed from the heat source
    	- turns off when tipped
    	- at least 1500 watts

>    	- at least 1500 watts

I don't think you'll find an electric heater that's more than 1500 watts.

    Debby
    
    I have two types in my house.  With the kids rooms we bought the oil
    filled heaters.  They do get hot to touch if turned on high, but won't
    burn. They are slow to heat up and simply radiate heat in all
    directions primarily up.
    
    I also bought a small electric heater with a fan built in.  It has a
    temp shut off, also will shut off when knocked over.  This one heats up
    infinitely faster than the oil heaters and can direct heat to where you
    want it.  I would be a tad more apprehensive if you put this one a
    carptet floor than the oil ones.
    
    Brian