Conference 7.286::home_work

    	All winter I have been seeing black ants in my bathroom.  Not
    many, just one or two at a time, but I assume for them to be there
    at this time of year there must be a nest somewhere.  Does anyone
    have ideas on how I get rid of it without knocking holes in the
    walls?  Eventually the bathroom will be remodeled but I really have
    much better thing to do right now.
    
    George

    I don't remember the details that well but this past Sundays Globe
    "Handyman" column had a question that sounded very similar to
    yours.  The answer (I think) said to check where the piping for
    the drain came into the house....that this often wasn't sealed by
    the builder and is a place for infiltration.  If you can't find
    the article let me know and I will try to dig it up for you.
    
    -lz

    Soon after I bought my house, I discovered that there were black
    ants on the front porch and inside landing.  I started looking around,
    and found that one wall, about 18 - 22' of a 40' ranch had been excavated
    by ants.  They had removed most of the wood from the foundation wall,
    up to the first floor of a raised ranch.  The house was less that 10
    years old.
    
    Moral of story:  
    
    Find those buggers, where ever they are,  regarless of what you
    have to do.
    
    phil

We to had blank ant problems in our bathroom.  Finally I decided to see
where they were coming from.  There was a closet in from of the tub/shower
and they were coming out through a hole in the bottom of the closet.  We
ripped the bottom shelf of the closet up and the entire 2 x 3 foot area
was totally black with those critters.  It turned out that water was leaking
around the top of the tub where the ceramic tile met it.  In fact the
sheet rock behind the tile was soggy up about a foot and when we started
ripping that off we found a another small pocket of ants in one of the
studs.  After fixing the wall (ripped off all the ceramic tile and replaced
it with fiberglass) we have not seen any more ants.  I have heard that ants
like moisture.

    I had the same problem last winter and that was *after* remodeling
    the bathroom! I set off one of those RAID bug bombs in the bathroom
    and one in the cellar directly underneath the bathroom and that
    cleared the problem up. Cleanup after the bombs was a chore
    (left a greasy film over everything in the room) but it got
    rid of the ants.
    
-mike

    BTW: The species of ants I had ranged from 1/4 to 1/2 inch...

    	Thanks for the responses so far.  It seems that the ants are
    definitely in the wall since  there are no hollow spaces in the floor or
    anywhere else in the bathroom.  I'm considering drilling several
    holes in the walls and spraying insecticide behind the walls through
    those holes.  Does anyone know of a bomb or gas type product that
    has a controllable spray so I can put the insecticide where I want?
     Does it seem like this should work?
                                 
    George

    We were bothered by "grease" ants every summer.  Nothing dangerous,
    just annoying little critters all over the counters in the kitchen.
    I tried EVERYTHING I could find in SPAG'S, all the hardware stores,
    etc., to no avail.  We finally called an exterminator.  He stopped
    by on the way to a Boy Scout meeting with his son.  Fifteen minutes
    and $60 later, there were no more ants.  Period.  For two years.
    
    Whatever he used, worked.  I got a one year warranty, didn't have to
    mess with the poisons anymore, and was confident that he solved the
    problem.  In my opinion, it was a primo investment and I'd suggest it
    to anyone. 
    
    -joet

    There was a note about ants quite a while ago in another notes file 
    (maybe CONMSUMER?) that had some good information.  Does anybody
    else remember it and remember exactly where it was?  
    
    I had carpenter ants in my old house that I discovered when I rebuilt
    part of the roof.  They had completely hollowed out a 3' section
    of 6"x6" beam.  I could get at them (because the roof was off) and
    I could replace the beam.  If I had the problem in a new house where
    getting at them might involve poking holes in finished walls, I'd
    probably hire a pro.  They can do a lot of damage that would cost
    considerably more to fix than the cost of hiring an exterminator
    to do the job right.
    
    Steve
    

  If you happen to use wood stoves as a source of heat, storing
  the wood inside the house (basement for instance) can bring in
  a lot o ants. They tend to wake up when the wood is brought in
  from the cold outside and will find themselves a new home in
  yours!
  
  My neighbor (his house is ~10 years old) just finished remodeling
  his bathroom. He removed the wallboard on the wall between the
  kitchen and the bath to do some additional plumbing work. He
  found that the "wonderful" builders had used the wall as a trash
  recepticle for their soda cans and candy wrappers. The ants got
  into that wall and were having a ball! This wall was FULL of
  trash and ants. Needless to say he cleaned it out and has no
  problems now.
  
  Just thought I'd give you that horror story to make your day...
  
  /tb/
  

    I would suggest looking at Anderson and Pella.  Both of these companies
    offer excellent products in a variety of styles and types.  I have
    put several Anderson windows in my house and a neighbor down the
    street did the same thing but he used Pella.  I have tripple galazed
    windows but the third pane is removeable from the outside.  I would
    suggest tripple glazing on the north side but double should be fine
    on the south side.
    
    I would suggest that you use all wood windows; the metal and vinyl
    types I would avoid.
    
    	/s/	Roger
    

    Pella does indeed make a nice albeit expensive (you get what you pay
    for) window. However, my opinion on Anderson windows are that they are
    over-rated and over-priced. If you live in the North of Boston area
    Merrimack Valley Wood Products (at the intersection of Routes 110 and
    93 in Methuen) makes a good quality window at a reasonable (but not
    cheap) price. They are comparably priced with Anderson's but of better
    quality (double-pane wood construction).

-mike

    I have the Merrimack Valley windows in my new house.   They're the
    "tilt-in" kind (you don't have to do outside to clean them).   They
    are wood with double-pane glass.   On a scale from 1 to 10, I'd
    give them a 7.   Pella's are definitely a 10.   Andersen's about
    8.5.   (My father is a contractor.   I've seen more Pella windows
    than I care to think about.   Amazing, but Pella's are the cheaper
    windows in Iowa (Pella's are made in Pella, Iowa).   They have a
    big plant at Rte. 2 and I495 in Littleton; I assume it is for
    custom unit assembly.   I still think all the units are actually
    manufactured in Pella, Ia.
    
    Note that with Pella's, you can "make" windows from building blocks.
    I replaced a 4'x8' picture window with a solid center and two
    crank-type casements.   The unit was assembled per my instructions.
    (And like I said, probably represents the work at the Pella plant
    in Littleton.)

    
    I have also been investigating windows. The universal opinion from
    all contractors whom I have talked to has been either Anderson or
    Pella. They have all mentioned that most heat loss is around the
    window not through it. And most feel that Anderson and Pella make
    the best seals on windows.
    
    Also, if anyone is interested in roof windows, go with Velux. They
    are the most expensive, but as has been said, you get what you pay
    for. Most said that they are the only ones which don't leak. I have
    installed two of them in my house. It is quite easy to do. You don't
    even have to go out on the roof to do it. Cut the hole from inside
    and then work through the hole.
    
    Any opinions on double vs. triple galze? Is the cost difference
    worth it? How about the new membrane or coated windows. They supposedly
    filter ultraviolet rays (no carpet fading), repell heat in summer,
    absorbe it in winter, and are clear. They showed an example on last
    weeks "This Old House". Anyone have experience with them in the
    Northeast?
    
    						Mark
    

In most places, triple glazing is not worth the extra money when it is just 
triple pane glass.  (as opposed to double pane glass with a storm.)  As was 
mentioned, a lot of heat is lost around the window instead of through it.  A 
storm window makes the air go through a more convoluted path to get out, and 
thus saves more energy than simply putting three panes of glass together and 
keeping the same air leaks.  For non-south facing windows, double pane with 
storm is probably the best way to go.

For south facing windows (especially if you are putting some form of insulated
shade over the window at night), glass panels past the first one are actually a 
heat loss.  I was surprised at that, but a south facing single glazed window 
actually lets in enough more solar radiation to offset the increased heat loss.
That's under ideal conditions, though.  Night insulation, sunny day, etc.  In 
the real world, double glazed is probably optimum, considering that you want to 
open the windows on cloudy days, etc.

The heat-film windows that I've seen filter out quite a bit of the solar 
radiation, and also have considerably better R value for heat loss (about R4 vs
R2.5 for triple pane, R1.7 for double and R.8 for single).  Again, these would
probably be a good buy for non-south facing windows.  I think that the blocked 
out solar radiation would offset the higher R value for south facing windows, 
though.

Also, if you can find somewhere that you can get low-iron glass for your 
windows, (good luck), it is ideal for south facing windows because it transmits
something like 98% of incoming radiation as opposed to 92% for regular glass.

Paul

    Yeah, there was another note on this subject--I thought it was in
    this very file. Anyway, find a pro who uses DIAZINON around the
    foundation and sprays inside. Does the trick every time and usually
    lasts a real long time.
    
    Marty

I have a 65 year old house that I am renovating.  Last year I purchased
replacement windows (double glazed with storm and screen) - they are
Harvey windows.  I looked at Anderson and Pella and found the construction
to be similar while the cost was much less.  These windows seal quite nicely
and also tilt in for easy cleaning.  I too believe that you get what you pay
for, but am very pleased with these windows.

As for installation, the contractor wanted $40/window.  I said no thanks,
just deliver them.  It takes me 60 minutes to remove the old sashes, weights,
etc, clean up the opening, install the window, install 1/4" insulation 
between the window and frame, and clean the window.


Mark

    

                                                       
    No, No don't find a PRO. - get a plant sprayer, ya know the pump type
    canister?, and some DIAZINON from yer local hardware/plant/feed
    store...  add a cap or two to a tank of water (see directions) and
    spray, spray, spray...  Much cheaper than a pro... 
    
    I did this last summer when, after a rain storm, our NEW home was
    raided by black ants.  I sprayed a five foot swath all around the
    foundation, and up the foundation onto the siding for a few inches.
    I haven't had a single ant since, and the grass is fine (it was
    brand new (baby) grass to boot)...
    
    						.dave.

    I had a very bad experience w/Diazanon.  
    
    I did exactly what was suggested in .10, and the ants came back
    two weeks later.  The pro's job lasted for the entire summer. 
    
    To make matters worse, one week and two thunderstorms after I sprayed,
    we got three goslings for our pond.  A couple of days later they
    wandered up to and ate some of the grass around the house.  Two
    of them died within 10 minutes.  
    
    In my experience, diazanon isn't all that effective or safe.
    
    -joet
    
    P.S. The third goose may have suffered brain damage (if you've ever had
    them, you know how hard it is to tell.) 

Has anybody tried/considered *making* windows?
Would be interested in hearing pros/cons on such matters.
Am toying with the idea of making storms for my south facing screened porch.
Primary motivation would be for a fun project, but wouldn't want to do
it if cheaper to buy.
Is more than a 1 1/2 hp router necessary? Perhaps a shaper (for mucho
bucks).
What kind/grade of wood is used?
B.f. cost?

    Pella prices go all over the map.  It depends on whether they are
    openable or not, insulated glass or not, casement or awning, etc.
    etc.
    
    You can call the local dealer and he'll tell you the prices.
    
    Examples:
    
    30x24 awning window $200 plus or minus.
    4 bay 20x36 casement with shades $600.
    3 bay 36x24 awning with shades $600.

    That's a good question,Herb. I would be interested to see if anyone
    has attempted this. I have a 75 year old house and I was looking
    around at the windows just the other day. Some of them are double
    paned,some are not,those which are not are in in different stages
    of disrepair. My brother-in-law attended a Vocational High School
    with carpentry as his major,I'll talk to him an see how practical
    it would be.
    
    	Steve
    

    You can make dandy windows yourself with very little "special" work.
    You can use good old pine, but get a top "clear" grade.
    
    As far as routing etc. Why bother? Buy the moldings you need from
    the lumber yard. The most difficult part will probably be the
    joints at the corners.
    
    If you have an old storm window, take it apart piece by peice and
    use it as a template. You will also discover how its made.
    
    Also the more panes you put in each window the pain it will be to
    make. :-)
    
    /tb/
    

    re .2
    Do lumber yards sell mullions?
    Is the "clear" grade is to ensure strength,dryness, & straightness?
    (the windows will be painted, so guess I am asking is wood with
    any knots in it just inherently inadequate for the structural demands
    that windows have)
    
    			thnx,
    			herb

    I built a full set of wood storm windows for my house afew years
    ago. I used 1x4 fir flooring, because it was readily available,
    clear straight grain and not to expensive. I made an open slot and
    tenon joint at the corners, since that could be cut eaisly on a
    radial saw, instead of a mortise. Its been about 10 years now and
    not one window has a joint problem.
    
    It was a great exercise in jig building- I had 25 identical size
    windows- I carefully laid out each piece and then cut 25 identical
    ones with various stopblocks, gauge blocks etc. I built a plywood
    clamping jig for glueing- using wedges for pressure. I could glue
    one in the morning before work, one as soon as I got home from work
    and one just before bed- got them all glued in just over a week.
    
    Painting and glazing was just timeconsuming- I did learn a few tricks
    in glazing. I know I saved money over buying aluminum windows, I
    dont mind the putting up and taking down, it only takes 2-3 hours
    twice a year and my wife wants the windows washed then anyway, so
    even with aluminum windows Id be up there twice each year.
    
    As to making window sash it would be a bit more difficult since
    they need some fairly fancy moulding- I think a shaper NOT a router.
    Also they would require some thicker stock. I would guess you would
    not save much money and would get into a real big job. The only
    reason Id do it was for some odd size or unique window- ovals or
    some such.
    
    Ron Ginger
    

    Great idea Ron!
    Is each window one pane? If not, how did you attach the
    mullion(s)/lintel(s) to the frame?
    Another tricky part: How did you get the rabbets to stop 'inside'
    -or before- the open slot and tenon? Did you finish of the slot
    side rabbet with a chisel?
    
    Mm, if the tenon is like
    			
    			   this
			-----------------------

       			_____
    			    |
    			    |___________________
    			rather than
			this
    			    _____________________
                       _____|
    		       |
    		       |____
    			    |____________________

        you wouldn't need to worry about rabbetting over the tenon

    
    			herb

re .3

>    Is the "clear" grade is to ensure strength,dryness, & straightness?
>    (the windows will be painted, so guess I am asking is wood with
>    any knots in it just inherently inadequate for the structural demands
>    that windows have)
    
I don't know about the structural issue, but the knots are a visual problem
even if you paint.  Given time, the sap in the knots (at least with pine)
will bleed through even several coats of primer & paint leaving a noticeably
darker spot in the paint over the knot.  I believe there is a sealer you
can buy which will delay the process but may not solve it completely. 

    My wife collects small glass bottles which seemed to invariably end up on
that little ledge formed by the top side of the inside window.  It looked
good but was a real pain when I wanted to open the window.  I took pine
1x4s, finished the outside edges with a router, attached it to the 
framing surrounding the window, and then painted it to match.  Visually,
with the windows closed, it disappears into the line formed by the top of
the inside window and the bottom of the outside window. . . except for one
dark spot where a knot bled through (fortunately, at one end of the board
and covered by curtains).  BTW, the four inch shelf holds the bottles
nicely, and I still get easy access to  summer breezes.

-Byron

    I'm not sure about getting mulion from lumber yards but they should
    be able to order them if they don't have them in stock.
    
    As someone else mentioned - going this route could be a BIG job.
    Keep it simple and you'll have a lot more fun doing it.
    
    As far as the clear grade goes it generally provides all the things
    you mentioned plus NO knots.
    
    /tb/
    

    I have wooden frame windows which slide horizontally and the putty
    is drying out and cracking, leaving gaps between the glass and the
    putty letting the rainwater in to the wood.  It is difficult to get 
    the putty out without cracking the window glass (I cracked one already). 
    Even with the glass removed, it's rough going with a chisel.  Any
    recommendations on how to remove the putty?   Once I replace the
    glass, what should I use for putty - silicon caulking?  I don't 
    relish doing this often.

    1) Try a soldering iron. Can buy a cheapie at Radio Shack if you
    don't have one.
    2) Use a good priming material before replacing the putty. I use
    oil paint as the primer.
    

  >    2) Use a good priming material before replacing the putty. I use
  >    oil paint as the primer.
    
  Putty dries out because the wood absorbs oil from it.  When we refinished some
  windows 8 years ago, "the book" said to put linseed oil on the surfaces in
  contact with the putty.  They still look good as new, so I can attest to the
  fact that this works.  I'll bet an oil primer would work just as well, though.

  We used something called "Dap" for putty.

  JP

    A related question/problem - rot. All the window trim  on the North side
    of my house are rotting. Clever builder: 4 windows on the North
    side, none on the South side. Must be some sort of new 'inverse
    solar' technology.
    
    Anyway... these things are beyond epoxy repair. I am told that
    replacement wood is "easy to come by". Any opinions on that? Any
    experience with replacing rotting trim (the sills gotta go too)?
    At the other extreme - if I put in four new "replacement" windows,
    will these stick out like the proverbial sore-thumbs?
    
    -Scott
    

    Pete - use a heat gun. Not quite as quick as a torch but won't char
    the wood as readily.
    
    -Scott
    

    Try Elmer's (as in glue) glazing compound.  It's different from
    standard glazing compounds and I've found it to be extremely easy
    to use.  

    re: .3
    
    You can do one of several things to replace your windows. If you
    are licky you can shop around and locate standard size windows that
    will drop into where your present windows with out destroing the
    looks of your house. Your other option is to have them custom made.
    There are several places that will do that work. One warning about
    custom windows you will then have to have the storms custom made
    also. 
    
    

    Spraying isn't going to help much in this case. If you have big
    ,around 1/4 inch in size, you have more that just an ant problem.
    Black ants better known as carpenter ants just love wet wood. Eliminate
    the wet wood and they will leave. Unfortunately they will have already
    done a lot of damage. I would suggest that you start looking for
    a wet spot in the area that you are seeing the ants. 
    
    dave
    

    Re: .5
    
    I used single panes of glass, about 24x24. No mulions. If you wanted
    the look of mulions you could add them on a strips outside the glass,
    like they do with anderson windows. I think this has an advantage
    of weathertightness over real multi pane windows.
    
    I rabbetted the stock full length, and simply adjusted the end cutoff
    to be longer on the rabbet side to fill in the rabbet. ( I'm not
    going to try to draw this with character set drawing- if you dont
    follow my note give a call, Ill mail a sketch)
    
    Ron

    DOnt use Silicone Caulk for putty!!!
    
    When I built my 24 storm windows ( a subject of another note) I
    first tried caulk in a tube, since I assumed putty would be to tedious.
    The caulk was a mess, didnt remain tight, looks awful. After one
    window I switched to putty (DAP brand) and with just a little practice
    had no trouble.
    
    Note a proper putty knife for this work has a 45 degree bend inthe
    blade about half way down its length. Makes all the difference in
    the world about smoothing it off and working the corners. I would
    apply putty from my left hand, somewhat like squeesing it out of
    a tube, but in just ragged lumps more or less evenly spaced along
    the frame. Then a single swipe of the curved knife and it was
    smooth. In fact repeated swipes made it worse- seemed to dry out
    the putty and lift it away. Simply put the putty on wipe it smooth
    and stop playing with it.

The Old House Hournal recommended removing the glass panes, 
then attacking the putty with a router. 

G'luck.

    To that end, Brookstone sells a widget (that's the technical term
    I believe - the lay term is "thing" :-) that works along the lines
    of a router rabbeting bit, but made to work in an electric drill.
    Check it out if you're interested in going that route.
    
    -Scott
    

    It's best to shop prices for these windows too. I put Andersons
    in an addition several years ago, and found that discounts range
    from 15% to 30% off list price. That can add up to great savings
    when you're putting a lot of these in!
    
    Dave

    One of Roy Underhill's books,(companion to The Woodwright Shop PBS
    show) - I think it's his second one, describes
    some good techniques for window making. Of course, he makes it without
    the use of any power equipment, but that might make the job even
    more fun! You just have to have access to numerous planes.
    
    Dave
                                       
    

    
    
    Concerning rotting windows on the North side of your house, Minwax
    has just come out with a product that alledgedly will fill in and
    seal rotted section of your windows or whatever. Yes, they claim
    that it can be used outside and is an inexpensive alternative to
    replacing your windows. Once dried, it can be sanded, painted, drilled
    or whatever [you may not be able to get by with transparent type
    stains, though].
            
    Disclaimer: I have not personally tried this product or know of
    anyone who has. However, Minwax products are usually of high quality
    and probably carries a performance warentee. Definately worth a
    try.
    
    Charlie

    Re the Minwax rot cure product.
    
    For several years there has been a product on the boat market called
    'Get-rot'. It is basically a thin epoxy that is supposed to soak
    into the rotted wood and then harden to good solid epoxy, which
    can be 'drilled, sanded etc'. Having owned lots of old, very rotten,
    wood boats over the years I have used lots of the stuff. I have
    little good to say about them. I could never get full penetration,
    and since wood rot is a fungus (think of it as wood cancer) the
    little bit remaining between the good wood and the new epoxy just
    continues to rot into the good wood. As a temporary stopgap- maybe
    till you can sell the house, it might be OK, but it will never be
    a permanent fix.
    
    As an interesting sidelight, I became friends with the owner of
    the original 'get-rot' patent in the last couple years. He was
    bemoaning the lapse of his patent, hence the end of royalty checks,
    last summer. In the last year many brands of similar epoxy compounds
    have appeared on the market.
    
    

    
    	Does anyone have preferences to what type of glass to be installed
    in windows?  i.e single pane, double, andersen, etc,etc.
    
    						Niece
    

    re: .10 and types of glass
    
    I'm not sure what you mean.  Single and double pane refer to the
    number of sheets of glass, while Anderson is a brand name for a
    whole window.
    
    "New Shelter" is always whining about "low iron" glass for some
    reason, but I forget why.
    
    Can anyone help shed some light (ugh!) on this?
    
    -joet

Low iron glass is really useful for solar applications because it is clearer 
than regular glass.  If you look at the edge of a pane of normal glass, it 
looks green, but low iron glass is clear.  Standard glass panes transmit about 
92% of available sunlight, while low iron glass transmits about 98%.  This 
makes for an even more dramitic improvement when used in double pane glass, 
which is almost a given these days.  About 95% transmittance for low iron glass 
vs. 85% in normal glass.  

Makes a big difference if you are trying to heat your house with the sun.
Unfortunately low iron glass is hard to find and expensive when you do find it.

Paul

Are ant traps at all effective against carpenter ants?  (The boxes claim
they are, but it's MY house they're eating!)

I just noticed we have ants below the first floor flooring -- between the
sub-flooring and the vapor barrier on the insulation bats between two pairs
of joists.  I hope they are just beginning to set up housekeeping (only
noticed them about two weeks ago -- after the big rains).  But even now
there is a lot of sawdust above the insulation.

They are in a location that is suspicious as far as moisture is concerned
-- under the dishwasher and near the base of the wall containing the pipes
going to the second floor.  I haven't completed my investigation yet, nor
have I decided how to treat them.

Suggestions are welcome.

Bob

    I/we put about eight of those ant traps around the house.  The only
    thing they did was take up space.  The ants kinda sneared at it and
    laughed.  I had to take the insulation down and spray the inside and
    outside of the walls (plywood half on unfinished downstairs) with
    diazinon (stong mix).  This killed them little buggers.  I then sprayed
    all around the outside for four feet around the foundation.  I haven't
    seen many ants lately. 
                                                               

    
    Has anyone ever installed a circle head window (regular window with a
    semicircular window mulled on top)?  I'm installing one and I'm not
    sure what to use for drip flashing on the round part.  Metal flashing
    probably isn't flexible enough for this, so does anyone know if someone
    makes something that is, like maybe something vinyl that can take
    exposure to the sun and rain?  ...or would a good caulking be sufficient? 
    
    						- Rich

I think that I might take the route of hiring an exterminator.  I live in the
"greater Groton (Mass.) area".  Recommendations (and warnings) would be
appreciated.  

Thanks,
Bob

P.S.  I am especially concerned about the lingering effects of any treatment on
the grounds around the house, since I have three young children that play
around there. 

Try Locke's Pest Control, 
545 Harrington St,
Concord, MA 
617-369-3802

Reasonable price.  Did the termites under!

    Id guess metal flashing is the answer. I just finished making a
    couple boat items out of sheet copper. I bought flashing copper
    at Diehls Lumber in Wellsley- Its amazing how much bending and forming
    it takes. I'd use a fairly narrow- maybe 3"- flashing bent first
    to 90 then try to form it around the arch- takes lots of gentle
    hammer taps, not heavy smash.
    
    Wheres Steve Wellcome- hes a metal bender and ought to have a
    suggestion here!
    
    Ron

    Ex-sheetmetal worker, my father has been the business for ~30 years.
    
    If I understand what you want then this usually isn't made with
    just one piece of metal. Copper is a very good choice for this.
    You would first make the piece that fits flat against with the arch
    cut out for the window. Then you would make the lip that sticks
    out from the house, roll it to the curve of the window, and then
    use a very nice tool that can put a 90 degree edge on this. The
    two pieces would then be soldered together with a very large iron.
    
    Not many people would have the tools that you need. Any sheet metal
    shop worth a damn would be able to make this for you. Copper will
    be expensive, but if you have the material it shouldn't take any
    more than an hour's time which is usually worth about $25.
    
    Nick

    Diazanon is a bio-degradable insecticide and its effectiveness
    diminishes after about 1 to 2 weeks.  The most effective ant
    insecticide around is Chlorodane.  It is very potent and has an
    effective life of 10 years!  I'm pretty sure that this product is
    banned from use in Mass and N.H., but it is still used in places
    like Florida.  By the way, ant traps are almost totally useless.
    
    -al

    Sorry Ron, I don't have a sheetmetal brake!  
    
    One suggestion though for doing it: copper (and brass) tend to
    work-harden considerably as they are formed.  You can test this
    empirically by getting a piece of "flexible" copper tubing and
    bending it into a curve, then trying to bend it back; you will
    discover that it is a lot "stiffer" when you try to bend it again.
    To anneal the copper after it work hardens, heat it with a torch 
    and let it cool.  Unlike steel, you can quench it in water to speed 
    the cooling and it won't make any difference in the hardness, the 
    copper will still be soft.  If you've got a complex bend you might 
    have to do this several times, but fully annealed copper will bend 
    amazingly.
    All you reloading guys know about this from annealing the necks
    of cartridge cases....
    
    Steve

    I use ant traps and have not seen any little ants for quite some
    time.  In the basement I use a lamp over soap/water and the flying
    ants go there.  When I find a big enough infestation such as carpender
    ants I use boric acid on them.  so far none of this is toxic to
    my pets or family.

    	I realize that this is an old subject but a good one.  I just
    replaced a window pain in a very old window. 
    
    	I started by removing the old broken glass as completely as
    possible, some ragged edges left.  Then I took a propane torch using
    a wide flare tip I would swing it along a six inch section at a
    time, give it about ten slow strokes then with an angled putty knife
    I would easily scrape off the putty.  This way the torch never stayed
    over any wood long enough to burn and the putty came off like soft
    butter.  You do have to be careful not to burn the wood.  I then
    applied linseed oil to the wood and let it absorb over night.  I
    used DAP with a thin layer along the lip of the frame and set the
    window in until it squeezed down onto the DAP.  I used a DAP putty
    that was linseed oil soked.  RE. 7..I then applied the putty to
    the outside edge and found what reply 7 referred to as a single
    swipe method.  After trying to perfect one edge so much that it
    was a disaster I started over and used the one single swipe method
    and got great results.  The window is now drying.
    
    	I do have some questions at this point.  How long should I let
    the window set until I paint over the putty?  What paint should
    I use?  And am I going to get into trouble not using the holder
    pieces (little slivers of metal that hold the window in place)?
    What are they called?
    
    				Thanks....Jorge'

    You're talking about glazier's points (the little metal triangles
    or diamonds that hold in the glass).  Their purpose is, indeed,
    to hold in the glass.  The job of the putty is to make it weatherproof.
    However, the putty also holds in the glass unless is really dries
    out and falls away, so it probably isn't a big deal.
    
    Painting...you'll probably find that if you try to paint it too
    soon the bristles of the brush will dig into the putty and make
    a mess.  The putty has to harden up enough so that doesn't happen,
    or else use a real soft brush.  A week, maybe???  When painting,
    try to JUST go onto the glass; the paint provides a weatherproof
    seal at the junction of putty and glass, which is why being sloppy
    and then using a razor blade to clean up is not as good - scraping
    with the razor blade disturbs the paint seal to the glass.
    
    Steve

    I hope this reply is not too late - I have a bending brake and
    you are welcome to stop over and bend whatever you need.  I
    live in Marlboro.
    
    
    Mark
    

    
    Re: .*
    
    Thanks for all the advice and the offer of the use of the bending
    brake!  What I ended up doing was using regular window drip flashing
    and carefully heated the part that fits against the wall and stretched
    it to fit the arc (thanks for the heating suggestion!). I then put in
    place and crimped the part that hangs over the front of the casing with
    a hammer. Since it's cheap, I bought twice as much as I needed, since
    it was kinda tricky to get the right arc - easy to break it or just
    overshoot the correct curvature. The copper suggestion sounded like a
    winner, but I've heard there's a problem with cedar shingles coming in
    contact with copper (I hadn't mentioned the cedar shingles in .0). 

    						- Rich

    
    Anyone out there have experience treating for carpenter ants?
    While we do not yet have an infestation IN the house, the little
    buggers reqularly invade from outside. They seem to be particularly
    fond of one of the adhedives used when putting down the subflooring.
    
    Stu
    

    I've had a couple of "run-ins" with carpenter ants.  In my cases
    they were comming in because they found nice soft wood to chew on.
    The wood was soft because it was wet, because of a plumbing leak.
    When I fixed that and sprayed them, they stayed away.  Same thing
    happened on the roof due to a roof leak.  So, look for wet wood.
    Also, the colonials used to plant mint around their homes to keep
    out the ants.  I don't know if that works because I have a black
    thumb and can't get mint to grow.
    
    Good luck!
    

    
    re: .1
    
    No, no wet wood problems.
    
    I guess I'm most interested in what sorts of treatment methods people
    have used: type of pesticides, method of application, etc.
    
    Stu
    

    	The best stuff you can but in MA is Diazion by Ortho.  Sprayed
    on the foundation, outside sills and three feet around the foundation
    should do the trick.  It costs about $8 a bottle.  If you can get
    you hands on Cloridane it works even better.  It has been pulled
    off of the shelf (at least in MA) and can only be used by licenced
    professionals.  I did my foundation a week ago and haven't seen
    any bugs since.  Be careful and read the label and DO NOT USE inside.
    	I was quoted a price of $100 by a "licenced professional" for
    two sprayings with Chloridane.  I think the chemicals had rotted his brain.

    					Get the bugs!
    					=Ralph=    

Hi!

I'm hoping some of you have some suggestions to help me with my latest
DIY project.

Last weekend, I tore out my suspended living room ceiling, and the the panelling
on the living rooms walls.  The new ceiling is going to follow the roof line to
make a cathedral ceiling.  (A low cathedral ceiling.  It's only about 12 feet
from the living room floor to the peak.)  I plan on putting in octogon windows
where the old attic vents used to be.  And for the inside walls, I'm going to
use pine boards.

My questions are:

1. Roof insulation.  I read all the past notes about insulation, and
   didn't find any pertinent notes.  I have two questions:

  - Do I need an air space between the insulation and the roof?
    I hope not, because the rafters are only 2 X 4's.

  - Any suggestions on how to get a decent R value for a roof in only 3 1/2"?


2.  Pros and cons of T & G pine.  What is the least expensive grade I could
    use for inside walls?  (not loose knots).  Also, ship lap pine is much
    less expensive.  Could I use ship lap pine instead?

3.  Anybody have any advice on octogon windows?  Since there are already square
    vents in what used to the attic space, I thought I would put in octogon
    windows instead of just boarding over the holes.



     What used to    ^                      The new plan:   ^
     be there:      / \                                    /#\
                   /   \                                  /#^#\
                  /  _  \                                /#/ \#\
                 /  |_|  \ <-- square                   /#//-\\#\
                /         \    vent                    /#/ | | \#\ <-- octogon
               /           \                          /#/  \-/  \#\    window
              /             \                        /#/         \#\
             /###############\                      /#/           \#\
             |#|-----------|#| <-- suspended        |#|           |#|
             |#|           |#|     ceiling          |#|           |#|

    # = insulation

Any advice would be appreciated!   Thanks.

- Molly -

    Answer to number 2:  I would use T&G rather than shiplap.  Most
    mills use their better wood for T&G since it has to have 2 good
    sides.  You should be able to get it for about $.55 or $.60 a
    board foot, so you can figure out your total cost.  Shiplap
    is probably $.45-$.50.  It's hard to name grades of wood because
    number 2 at one place might be the same as #3 someplace else.
    Also, I would use the V-Groove side showing.  I have a cathedral
    ceiling with 6 inch V-groove T&G running diagonally.  It
    looks real good.   Also, by having the V-groove side out,
    when the wood shrinks, and the joints separate a little, it
    won't show as much since there is a groove there anyway.
    

    
    Better allow some airspace betw. the insulation and the roof
    boarding, or you'll have smiling shingles (curled at the edges),
    at least on the pitch which gets the most sun, before too long.
    
    Stu
    

    On the air circulation, you'll also get condensation dripping off
    your ceiling if there's no air flow between the insulation and the
    roof.  My building inspector insisted on it.  Also, Maine Post &
    Beam has had several lawsuits because their roof construction didn't
    provide for enough airflow.  They have since changed the design
    of their roofs so that it's not as easy for customers to stuff too
    much insulation between the rafters, and plug up the airspace.
    

I'd add just one item to the advice given so far.  When you get around to
nailing up the T&G, rent a compresser and a nailing gun.  Nailing above your
head gets old pretty quickly and you wouldn't want your lovely new cathedral
ceiling to be covered with hammer marks.

JP

    Thanks for the replies!  Keep 'em coming.  I really appreciate the
    help.
    
    RE:  .4  Yep, believe it or not, the rafters are only 2 X 4's, and
    what's worse.... there are no cross rafters.  The peaked roof is
    only over one room (15' X 13').  The rest of the roof is relatively
    flat.  Sort-of like this.  (My house was originally built (65 years
    ago) to be a summer cottage.)
                         ^ 
                        / \
                       /   \
               --------     --------
    
    Thanks for telling me how to get a good R value in the roof.  It's
    worth the extra cost of the 2" foam.  
                
    - Molly -

    re: .4   There's no reason you have to nail T&G through the tongues
    if it's for a ceiling.  If you were considering face nailing shiplap,
    you might as well face nail the T&G.  I used finishing nails to
    put up the T&G on my ceiling and you would have to look pretty
    carefully from down below to be able to spot a nail.  Especially
    after it's stained.
    
    Also, on the price, I don't know where you (263.0) live so I can't
    tell you where to get the wood for that price.  But that's the price
    I pay.  BTW, its only 10 cents a bd foot more than what you said, which
    was 35 cents a lin foot 1x6.        
    

    Oops, sorry.  I forgot to mention that I live in Groton Mass.  
    I'm not too worried about making sure I buy the pine from someplace
    that delivers.  I drive a truck, so I would be willing to drive
    a ways (including Southern N.H.) to pick up the wood, if I can save
    money.
    
    - Molly -
    
    

    I just read the notes on ridge vents.  They say you have to have
    soffit vents also.  Because my roof turns into a sort-of flat roof
    on both sides of the peak roof, I don't think I could put in soffit
    vents.
    
    Sheesh! This is sounding complicated.  I tried calling a few "pro"
    insulation people, but they're all too busy for a "minor" job.
    (Gee, it just goes to show, all things are relative - I consider
    this a "major" job!)
    
    - Molly -

 A good place for you to get the wood is Bingham Lumber in Brookline,
    NH.  To get there go down 119 to 13 and go north.  After you cross
    into NH and pass a little ski slope on the left, Bingham lumber
    will be on the right.  They usually have lots of milled wood there,
    both shiplap and T&G.  The T&G is 60 cents/bd foot for 8 inch and
    65 cents bd/ft for everything else.  No tax. 
    They let you pick out the pieces you want.  (603) 673-4549.
    
    They also have oak in 3 or 4 grades with prices from 80 cents to
    about 2.25 bd/ft.
    

Well, now I understand why there were no collar ties.  With the peaked roof in 
between two flat roofs like that, the side sections provide support for the 
roof.

As to soffit vents, what is really needed is some way for air to get into the 
roof at the bottom.  Soffit vents is just how that's done for a normal roof. 
Your case is different, so you can't use soffit vents, but you still need to 
get air to that section of roof.  Is there already a ventilated air space over 
the flat side roofs?  If there is and it connects with the cathedral roof then 
you're all set.  If not, then I'm not quite sure how to get air in there.

Paul

    A non toxic approch is to use boric acid.  This stuff gets into
    the the edges of insects and cuts them up.  It also kills rats and
    mice because they can not throw up.

    
    	re .4	"Non toxic", you say ?   Then how does it do that to
    insects, rats and mice ?

    	Reg
    

    Non Toxic, in that rats and mice can not throw up and the boric acid
    makes them crave water.  Thats why decon works so well.  when the
    rodent gets to water, the boric acid produces gas and blows them up.
    
    Boric acid on insects cuts into the cracks of the exo (skin) and
    makes them leave the area.  This works great on fire ants down south.
    
    It is not so deadly to pets and birds because they can throw up
    and will not eat it after a few episodes.

    
    I did *almost* the same treatment for a master bedroom a couple
    of years ago, breaking a partition between two small bedrooms, and
    then extending the carrying wall up to the ridge board.  I did use
    tounge and groove pine on the walls and the ceiling.  A couple of
    good places to go for your lumber are Currier in Amherst N.H. and
    as .10 said Bingham Lumber.  For millwork try National Building
    Supply in Plaistow N.H.  If you go there deal with the owner, Ron.
    He discounts most millwork 15 -- 20% including Anderson, Marvin,Velux,
    Blefa, Roto, etc.  Another place is Liberty Millwork in Hudson N.H.
    
    I didn't have the problems you are running into, because I really
    built a vaulted ceiling, an thus used the 2x6 floor joists I removed
    to frame the wall up to the ridge board.  I then doubled up on collar
    ties in the rest of the attic, and trussed every other 2x6 back
    to the existing conventional floor joists.  Now your arrangement
    does indeed present a support probem, as stated in another reply.
    Collar ties done decoratively uld help, and I personally would a
    beam across the room, anchoring it to the two standing walls.  I'd
    use a 6x6 fir beam; if my calculations are correct, this should be 
    sufficient.
    
    You will have to add strapping to your 2x4 rafters to get enough
    insulation in, and not knowing what your roof looks like, I can't
    help here, but a ridge vent, soffit vent system would be almost
    mandatory.  Now there are more ways than one to do soffit vents,
    so you may not really be out-of-luck after all.  And for ensuring
    ventilation, and picking up a little more R value also, use air
    channels.  You've probably seen them before, they're white plastic
    semi-V shaped and you insert them between the rafters and your your
    roof sheathing.  Then the insulation is butted against them.  Because
    they are V shaped they ensure constant ventilation.
    
    Good luck!
    
  ave

    
    	I've got a dilemma on what to do with the old windows in my
    home.  I'd prefer to rebuild the existing windows to save money.
    However some of the windows are in such bad shape that it is not
    possible.  I've started looking at three choices, new wooden sashes,
    vinyl replacement windows, and wooden replacement windows.  I am
    not totally happy with any of the choices.
    	The windows are large double hung windows.  The dimentions are
    as follows:
    
    
    			  30"      30"
 			<-------><------>   
    			-----------------  ^
    			-	-	-  .	Windows have two panes
			-	-	-  .    per sash
    			-	-	-  .
    			-	-	-  .
    			-	-	-  . 60 inches
    			-----------------  .
    			-----------------  .
    			-	-	-  .
    			-	-	-  .
    			-	-	-  .
    			-	-	-  .
    			-	-	-  .
    			-----------------  v

    The problem is getting reasonably energy efficient windows and keeping
    the original look of the house.
    
    	The choices (as I see it) are as follows:
    
    New Wood Sashes ($120 per set custom made)
    	Advantages-would keep the original look
    	Disadvantages-poor efficiency, same trouble with window weights
    			and rattling.
    
    Vinyl Replacement Windows-($150 per set $30 installation)
    	Advantages-will be custom made to keep original look
    	Disadvantages-difficult to repair, impossible to change color.
    		
    Wooden Replacement Windows ($150-180)
    	Advantages-possible to repair and paint
	Disadvantages-Would change the look of the house.  I can't
    		find wooden replacement windows in the same style as
    		the original windows.
    
    
    	Does anyone have any idea?  Can I get custom built wood replacement
    windows for a $150-200 per window?  Are vinyl replacement windows
    really as bad as I think?
    
    					Thanks for the help
    					=Ralph=

    Refer to note 103 for a discussion on replacement windows. 
    I ended up buying Harbor Thermal Replacement windows. I bought 2 of them
    to see if I liked them. They were very easy to install by myself,
    and my house is over 200 years old. I just ordered 20 more windows.
    If you would like more info on Harbors Windows, send me mail.
    
    Mark    

    On your way to Bingham lumber (note .10) make a left on Rte 13 in
    Townsend.  Just past the hardware store (on the left) make a left
    on Depot road, go down a little, and check out Hirsh Lumber.
    
    __Rich

    What does Hirsh Lumber sell?  What are their prices like?
    
    Another good lumber yard is Tapply Lumber, which is about 1
    mile north of Bingham lumber on the opposite side at the 
    intersection of RT 130 and 13.  I got wide pine (16" and 20")
    from them at a good price.
    

    Thanks again for all the good advice - more welcome!
    
    I'm in the process of checking out the different lumber yards
    for price, quality, delivery, etc.  (While I'm waiting for a
    professional insulation contractor to give me his advice how to 
    insulate my roof).
             
    I'll report back on the lumber yards, and what the insulation
    guy says (he's certified by Mass Dept. of Energy, or something like
    that).                                   
    
    Thanks again,
    
    - Molly -

    
    	I was walking through the local shopping mall the other day
    and saw a display for vinyl replacement windows.  I had nothing
    to lose, so I let the man come by and give me a free estimate.
    The bottom line was $6200 to replace ten 30X60 double hung windows!!
    What a joke!

    Hirsch Lumber sells both rough cut and finished boards.  I bought
    several rough 2" x 10" boards for my raised bed garden.  (I wanted
    to avoid pressure treated arsenic).
    
    I have also bought finished 1" x 8"'s and 1 x 10's for shelving.
    Their finished price is $0.50/board foot for what they
    call grade 3 but it might be called #2 elsewhere.
    
    If you visit, go into the door marked "office."  The lady there
    will show you around.
    
    __Rich
    
    Ah, yes, their hours are (I think) 8-5 including Saturday.

    re .2.  Incredible!  I just paid $3600 for 11 windows and 1 door
    by PELLA.  A bargain by comparison.

    	And I'd be willing to bet that the Newpro sales person came
    	across with the line "but wait, if you sign right now we can
    	save you $1000.00, But you must act now....
    
    	I also has them come out and found out how much of a joke they
    	are. I went with a local contractor (Gardner Ma.) and had 10
    	double hung (apporx 30x60, 1 30"x30" casement, a 5'X5' sliding
    	window, a 60" X 110" picture window with 2 double hung's, an
    	insulated steel door and new combination door for.... $6200.00
    
    	$3000.00 less than Newpro wanted for 11 double hung's... 
    
    				Steve
    

    RE: .3,.4
    
    And you got a better window too!!!
    

    Question:  Is it difficult to replace windows yourself.  Mine have
    got to be the epitome of ugliness.  The house is about 100 yrs old.
    
    Pam

    I replaced the 2 windows I have done all ready and I was surprised
    how easy it was. First you remove the stripping that holds the old
    windows in, then remove the windows. If you have weights you have
    to remove them and fill those spaces with insulation. I had to remove
    the window sill because the new windows were  wider, but this was
    not hard to do. I removed the old storm windows and cleaned the
    opening with a putty knife. The new windows, (if they are measured
    correctly), will fit right into the opening. Once the window is
    securly butted up against the outside frame, you can screws can
    be put in. They give you an L shaped piece of vinyl to install at
    the bottom on the outside to make up for any gaps. All that is left
    to do is caulk around the edges, and install the inside strips.
    	The first window I did took about 45 minutes. After that it
    only took me 20 minutes. I will be installing 20 more windows when
    the order comes in. Believe me, if I can do it anyone can.
    
    	For those of you interested in Harbor Windows, The company is
    located in Scituate Mass. The phone number is 617-545-9600. These
    windows were recommended to be by an friend who is an Industrial
    Arts Teacher. I payed $4800 for all 20 windows. One thing that I
    like was that they still honor the warrenty, even if they were
    installed by the home owner. Some of the other companys would not
    do this unless they installed them at $70 a window. They also will
    measure each window so the fit will be correct.
    
    Mark

    If you're interested in the Newpro products, have a salesperson
    come to your home, talk about replacing lots of windows, get an
    incredibly high quote, and maintain firmly that you can't justify
    such an investment (a lot of creative math will appear in the
    salesparson's counterarguments).
    
    Within a week, you will get a call from some main office manager,
    who will ask you for the quoted price and offer to cut at least
    40% off because of some kind of factory-direct deal. You should
    be able to work that down to 50% off the original quote.
    
    Newpro operates a lot like automobile dealerships, but with a higher
    profit margin.

    
    Good Luck Molly, no matter what you do I think you'll love the results.
    The pine looks nice when finished. 
    
    I did two side walls in my 19x32 family room, 1x6 T&G, smooth side
    out, on a diagonal. I got it from Mullen Lumber in Sudbury and paid
    less than $.40 a board foot (two years ago). Don't remember the
    exact price but it was in the .30's. I had a large initial shipment
    delivered so I didn't pick it out. There were only about 10 boards
    out of more than 100 that needed to be exchanged. And there was
    no problem from Mullen when I went back. (If you know anyone who
    works at Raytheon, Mullen gives 10% off)
    
    A couple of pointers when you are installing it.
    
    	1) Leave the wood stacked in the room with spacers for at least a
    few days before installing. This lets it become aclimated to temp/
    moisture so there is less movement after installation.
    
    	2) Go through all the boards and seperate them by quality. Some
    boards which have flaws may still be usable for the shorter pieces,
    just cut around the flaws. ( Especially if you install diagonally
    as I did, produces a lot of waste.)
    
    	3) If you go with T and G, you'll find that it is almost impossible
    to nail without denting the groove a little. The angle of the nail
    in the grove is not enough to grip if you angle to much, the board
    will split if you don't go deep enough, and if the angle is to low
    it will really show in the finished product. What I did was to carry
    a little piece of sandpaper while I was nailing. After installing
    a board, I sanded the small dents out before putting the next board
    in the groove. Only took a few seconds per nail, and the result was
    no dents showing between the groove in the boards.
    
    	4.) Don't worry if the boards bow a bit on the side. I finally
    figured out how to handle this when I did it. The problem was that
    when you inserted a board in the groove of the adjacent board, the bow
    would result in the T&G meeting only at the top and bottom of the
    boards with a big space in the middle. I solved this by rigging
    a short length of 2x4 with a studding nail partially driven in at
    one end. I would nail this into a stud just above the board I was
    installing. I then put a scrap piece of T&G in the board, piveted
    the 2x4 in on top and banged it into place to force the board to
    fit snug in the groove. After nailing, just move the "wedge" to
    the next postion. (If I didn't explain that very clearly feel free
    to give me a call)
    
    
    If you think any of this sounds tough, wait till you finish it.
    In my case, 3 coats of semi-gloss poly with sanding between each
    coat!! But the final result is on of my proudest achievements and
    I love the compliments that we get on the room. Especially when
    I sit back and think "Yeah, I did that!" 
    
    Good Luck,
    
    					Mark
    

         There's got to be a better way....I can't justify spending
    thousands of dollars on replacment windows. Last year I spent
    a weeks vacation re-glazing, repainting, and restringing the 21
    windows in my home(6 paines over 1). And as you can imagine....
    I don't care to do that again in my liftime! In the winter, I
    moretite all the windows for insulation. I think it would take 
    a long time for 5 or 6 thousand dollars of heat to seep out.
    There has got to be some manafacturer out there who is'nt making
    a killing out there on these replacement windows.

    The putty is likely to *eventually* dry out. Then the pane will
    be subject to falling out. I might be obsessive
     and reputty it but  Steve's observation is probably correct.

    
    
    			herb
    

I finally found an insulation company that wasn't too busy to
come look at my place.  It's costing a lot more than I expected,
but it sounds like they're going to do all the right things.

Included in the $1400 is Installation and materials for:

Vents:
------
28 circular 2" diameter soffit vents.
2 roof vents (for the flat parts of my roof)
1 ridge vent.

Cathedral ceiling:
------------------
Styrofoam "proper vents" for air space and circulation.
then 2" of styrofoam board,
then 1" of Urethane board.
This gives me an R-value of 21 in the Cathedral section.

Flat ceiling:
------------
Cut holes into existing framing to make air space over flat roof, open to
the air space (Proper Vents) in the cathedral ceiling. 
Then blow in 4" of cellulose insulation.
This gives me an R-value of 25 in the flat sections.

Walls:
------
The usual fiberglass batts with an airspace.  Gives me an R-value of 13.5

So, all in all, it's expensive, but I think it will be worth it in the long
run.  (And it's also nice to have someone else doing the work for a change! :-)

I'll let you know how it turns out after they do the insulation.

I forgot to mention, the insulation company is Energy Contractors out of 
Hudson Mass.  Any good or bad news about this company?

- Molly -

The best price I could find is at Farnsworth Lumber in Shirley Mass.
Their price is only .40 a board foot for 8" T&G.  Their grade of wood
is one lower than most other places, but I went to look at it.  And
it looked fine for my tastes.  I couldn't really see a difference 
between it and the better grades.  I know that I'm liable to find
a few bad boards and knots in the batch I get, but I think I'll still
save money in the long run.

Also, I went to Maki's in Lunenburg last Saturday and they were having 
a sale on Octagon Windows.  I got one that opens, has a screen, a grill, 
and a weather seal for $65.  That was a really good price.  :-)

As an aside........ I found the people at Farnsworth to be extremely nice!
It's a small family run lumber yard.  I was looking for a small bag of
cement because I need to secure my "wobbly" mail box.  I now know that
there in no such thing as a "small" bag of cement.  But the people at 
Farnsworth gave me (for free!) a big bag of cement that had broken open.
And this is BEFORE they knew I was going to buy my wood from them.  
Boy, just when you start lose faith in people, someone goes and does 
something really nice!!!!  It sure made my day!  :-)

- Molly -

    
    RE: .17  Thanks for the T & G pointers.  
    
    I'm looking for some suggestions and "war stories" on how other
    people have finished their pine walls.
    
    I think I'm going to just seal it with #209 Natural stain from
    Minwax.  But I know a lot of people prefer to use Poly.
    
    Anyone have any suggestions?  I'm looking for a finish that won't
    require lots of maintenance, and which will turn "yellow" as LITTLE
    as possible.  This is why I'm leaning toward the Natural Stain.
    I've seen it on pine before, and the pine stayed white.
    
    Thanks for any suggestions,
    
    - Molly -

    I have a problem that I have been trying to solve for some time
    without spending thousands of dollars.  
    
    I have two sets of sliding double pane glass doors which lead out
    to a deck.  The seal in the glass is apparantly broken, as a fog
    has developed between the layers of glass.  
    
    Does anybody know how to get rid of the fog?

How old are the doors?  Most insulated glass is guaranteed for 5 years, and 
some for 10.  You might be able to get it replaced on warranty.  If not, you're 
probably going to have to replace the glass, I don't know of any way to stop 
the fogging.  It's fogging because the seal is leaking, and even if you cleared 
it up, it would come back.

You don't have to spend thousands of dollars, though.  Replacement glass for a
slider will run somewhere between $65 and $100 a panel, depending on the size 
of the door and where you get it.  So you're only talking hundreds even if all 
four panels are fogged.

Paul

    I KNOW OF SOMEONE WHO HAD THE SAME PROBLEM.  ONCE THE SEAL IS BROKEN,
    THE GLASS HAS TO BE REPLACED.

I just replaced one pane in a slider for $135.  The person came out to the
house to measure the door.  Second trip he returns with replacement glass and
does it right on site.  Piece of cake.

No, there is no way you can do anything about it once the seal is gone.  If
it looks bad now, it will look HORRIBLE in winter then the cold causes even more
condensation.  Since you have to remove the door to do this, best advise is to
do it when you've not heating your house (either in the next couple of months or
wait for next spring)!

-mark

    I have to agree with the previous solutions of getting an exterminator.
    We had the bimbos.  Tried DIAZANON.  Didn't make it.  Got the man
    in.  Gone in a few days.  Haven't seen them since.  Also got a 
    1 year warranty on the work.  No complaints here.
    
    							Pete
    

    Where can I find some one to replace the glass for me? I have the
    same problem.   Thanks in advance for any recommandation.
    
    (Location: Worcester, MA area)

I can't remember the name of the outfit we used but it was in Acton and may
have been called Acton Glass.  My wife said all she did was look in the 
yellow pages under Glass (how original).  I suspect this is a fairly common
practice and looking for a local dealer would be your best bet.

-mark

    
    	I am in the process of having the outside pane of a double
    	hung double glazed window replaced.  (My 4-year old is learning 
    	how to throw rocks...)  I called some glass shops (I live in
    	Lowell MA) and they all said that they could do it.  I only called 
    	those that specifically mentioned "repair" or "installations".  I'm 
    	getting it done for $13.  I had to take the window there, but
    	it was quite easy to remove.  After talking to the guy about
    	what he had to do, I think I MAY have been able to do it myself,
    	but for the price, and the penalty if it is done wrong, I'm
    	letting him do it.
    
    	Joe O.

    	I met with the HARBOR window rep last night.  He was honest
    and straight to the point.  I liked the windows and ordered seven
    of them for $240 each.  I'll keep you posted on the installation.
    Delivery takes about 4-5 weeks.
    
					=Ralph=    
    						

    	Anyone know the right way to putty windows ?
    	I have done it many times, just to watch it crumble
    	and fall out in about a years time. I have heard that you
    	should put linseed oil on the wood before puttying, 
  	tried this and . . .  the putty wouldn't stick.
    
    	It is time to try again and I would like to have it last
    	longer than a year. 
    
    	Is there a technique, or a certain brand ?
    	that I should try.
    	
    
    	I am pretty sure it's called glazing compound, anyway, the junk
    	that you put around windows to seal and hold the glass in.

	Finally decided to replace our windows. They're 35 years old,
	rattle in the wind, fall down on us (pressure, no weights),
	etc. I have four window suppliers comming over to the house
	in the next five days. Looking for installed windows, I don't
	want to try installing them on my own, with my luck, I'd 
	install them upsidedown and insideout. We are in the market
	for an Almond color window with 3 over 3 grids top and bottom
    	and double pane.
	
	Polar Windows from North Reading was over last night, they
	sold a vinyl clad window (vinyl over metal). Glass looked 
	like it was tinted, glass had a trademark "Comfort E" made
	by AKG Industries. He wouldn't give me a price, I slipped
	and told him others were comming over, he said he call next
	Wednesday and give me a price (without hearing the other
	quotes) and he'd have them all beat. The window glass had
	a 10 year warranty and the rest of the window had a 25 year
	warranty. 6 to 8 weeks delivery.

	Ask my next door neighbor (a carpenter) if he had heard of
	Polar Window, he hadn't, and said he installs Harvey Windows.
	He told me he had installed them in my wife's cousin's house
	and to call them to take a look. He said he could do it for
	$260 a window. 11 weeks delivery. Don't remember the warranty
	but it was on the lines of Polar. More on Harvey when he comes
	over to measure the windows.

	I have Arctic Windows comming over tomorrow night, Anderson
	Installations, Saturday and Newpro, Monday (what the hell).
	I'll keep you posted.

	Now for some questions.

	What is the positive and negative aspects of:

		Vinyl windows?
		Vinyl clad windows?
		Metal windows?

		Double pane (with and without addition storm window)?
		Triple pane (with and without addition storm window)?

	Can anyone think of anyone I should call that services the
	Clinton area?

	Thanks.

Ed	

    
    There's a long discussion of this elsewhere in this file, but
    I just thought I'd point out a new product 3M makes to make
    the job easier. It's a pre-formed glazing strip. Cut a section
    off the roll, peel the protective paper backing, and press in 
    place. I always had trouble getting a good, smooth, even bead
    of glazing compound in place, and this stuff may be worth the
    extra $$ if you can't do a real professional-looking job yourself.
    
    Stu

    In brief:
       Put a thin coat of raw linseed oil on the wood and let it dry a
    day or two.
       Put in a thin bead of putty (all right, "glazing compound" these
    days, but "putty" is easier to type) around the opening for the
    glass to set on.
       Put in the glass, and push in a few glazier's points (one on each
    side for small panes, or about a foot apart for larged panes)
       Use a putty knife to apply a bead of putty around the top of the
    glass.  
       Wait about a week until the putty hardens up a little, and paint
    it.  If you've got a good hand, have the paint JUST come over onto
    the glass, and don't use a razor blade to scrape.  The paint give
    a good weathertight seal, and if you scrape with a razor blade you
    break the seal.
    
    Steve

What I can add:

Do your glazing on a warm day; when it's cold it's hard to
handle the putty and it doesn't seem to adhere as well.

Make sure that there's no dust anywhere.

Kneading the putty (with clean hands) helps soften it and
make it stick better.

And finally be sure to paint it after it cures (longer in
cold weather than warm).
R.

    
    Re:-2 I just saw the molded 3-M glazing compound discussed in this
    reply at Spags.I was planning on using it when I get done working
    inside of my new/old house.It is located on the counter in the paint
    department and sells for $2.99 for a package of 17 feet.BTW,has
    anyone used this stuff and does it stick???
    
    Tony....

    re 399
    I was faced with installing 30 panes of glass last fall and tried
    about three variants.  In cold weather the only thing that worked
    with great success was a latex based compund that Red Devil sells
    in caulking tubes.  It was great, and very fast.  The nozzle is square
    and has a flap that smooths the bead out.  It's a bit goopy when
    first applied, but firms up in a short while.  I just painted the
    mullions on these windows the other day, everything was still tight
    and firm.
    
      

    There is a nice little tool made by Stanley for handling window
    glazing.  It has a regular putty knife at one end, and a V-shaped
    knife with a slot in it at the other end.  After putting in the
    window and pointing it, you slap in the glazing compound as best
    you can with the putty knife, then draw the V-blade along the bead.
    The bead is compressed into place and the excess compound is trimmed
    off.  Left me a real nice, regular bead.  Only trick is that you
    can't draw it along too fast - slow and easy does it.
    
    It did take me a bit to figure out how the knife worked.  There
    were no instructions and the way it works wasn't obvious - but once
    I got the hang of it I could work pretty fast.  Got it at Moore's
    in Littleton.
    
    /Butch

    I just installed the 20 Harbor Windows. It took a total of 3 days
    to install them. I ran into a few problems with rotted sills that
    had to be replaced, but nothing major. I am very pleased with these
    windows. The biggest noticeable difference is how quite it is in
    the house now. I live on a busy street, and now the traffic noise
    is cut in half. I should see a big cut in my heating bill this year.
    Thanks for the help Ralph.
    
    Mark

    We had 5 windows and 1 patio slider replaced by Portland Glass in
    February.  I HAVE NOTHING GOOD TO SAY ABOUT THEM!  The windows are
    OK, but extremely overpriced and the workmanship is horrible. We
    decided to go with them after seeing a friend's windows and getting
    his recommendation.  Unfortunately, we were very naive and didn't
    get any other estimates...DUMB!!  The installation was terrible-I
    think I could have done a better job myself...it certainly would
    have been neater!  
    I feel that the salesman (who happened to be the "district sales
    manager"...woopy) deliberately misled us.  The patio door we had
    was a double pane slider with nothing wrong with it.  We felt we
    wanted triple pane glass to try to prevent heat loss and asked if
    they had triple pane sliders to which he replied yes.  When the
    installers came(WE DON'T USE SUBCONTRACTORS-ONLY PORTLAND GLASS
    EMPLOYEES..another lie) my husband realized it was only double pane
    they were putting in.  He called the office and they said "oh, we
    don't make triple paned sliders.  It's against building codes for
    residential homes".  $1250 for a door to replace something that
    was perfectly fine.  On top of that, the damn door never worked
    properly and they came back no less than SIX times to fix it.
    
    We were also told that there would be no damage to any existing
    molding...bull!  Not only did they wreck the molding, they mickey
    moused and put small molding up to make the window fit.  They also
    scratched the paint off the walls below the windows (I suspect from
    the tool belts) and said a couple of the marks were crayon marks!
    How convenient that we have a three year old.
    Bottom line is we ended up having to hire a lawyer to have them
    take out their door so we could put one in (Andersen) that works.
    
    We have since been told that it's the dead air space that is the
    insulating factor, not the number of panes of glass.  If the three
    panes were spaced further apart than two, then that might be worth
    the extra money.  Is there any truth to that?
    

    The insulating value of multi-pane glass is a combination of air
    space and surface effects.  The conventional wisdom seems to be
    that EACH air space should be around 1/2" - 3/4" for best effect.
    
    (Rusty memory of R-values:  each "dead air" (sealed against air
    movement) surface is about 0.8, each "live" (exposed to ambient
    air movement) surface about 0.3 (for slow air, as would be
    characteristic of an inside surface) to 0.15 (for faster - e.g.,
    outside) air.  This would lead to effective insulating values
    of about 0.45 for single-pane glass (I think that's a tad low
    in reality), 2.05 for double-pane (about right), and 3.65 for
    triple-pane (a tad high - but perhaps that's because most such
    windows are built with smaller dead-air spaces than 1/2").) 
    
    Anyway:  Triple-pane glass is rapidly becoming unavailable, as
    double-pane with special heat-reflective coatings offers better
    overall performance (R-values in the 3 to 4+ range).
    
    			- Bill
    

    Of course everyone does things differently,I have been using DAP
    glazing compound for my windows. I prefer to apply it on cooler
    days,seems to be just too hard to work with if it is warm. Usu-
    ally just roll it into a snake and press it into the corners of
    the glass,then heat up a putty knife and smooth it out. However,
    with the amount of re-glazing I have to do,I'm definately going
    to get either the stuff in the caulking tube,or the pre-formed
    stuff;seems like the way to go. Glad It was mentioned.
    
    	Steve
    

    
    
    Jorge,
    
    The glazier points (little metal thingos) are to hold in the glass.
    If it is a window that doesn't get much use you may be lucky and
    have the glass stay in but with out the points you could be asking
    for trouble later. 
    
    You can use any paint you want on the putty  especially since you
    used DAP. You can paint generaly in about a week or as soon as the
    surface dosen't cave in when you touch it.
    
    You used the right method with the torch but it really would have
    been safer with a hot air gun or even one of those 1500 watt blow
    dryers.
    
    

    We have a large 45inch X 45inch Velux window in our bedroom. We
    had a real problem last winter with condensation and were wondering
    if there was any way to cut down on the moisture. The window has
    a groove at the bottom to catch the moisture but it gathers so much
    (much of it frozen by morning) that it overflows the groove and
    cascades (well, maybe not cascades) down the wall leaving unsightly
    waterfall marks and wrecking a wooden shelf we have underneath the
    window.
    
    The window has a shade which we draw at night and a screen that
    fits tightly into the window. The best solution might be some sort
    of interior storm that would fit where the screen normally does.
    I did see a news brief in Practical Homeowner (or whatever it is
    called) which described a new interior storm that comes complete
    with integrated springs which hold the storm in place without unsightly
    adhesive strips or velcro.
    
    Anyone have any suggestions?
    
    Thanks,
    Paul
    

hmmm... reminds me of the days I camped in a waterproof tent (as opposed to
one with a rain fly that breated out the moisture).

I wonder how you generate that much moisture in the first place (I'd expect
this more in a bathroom than a bedroom, there's also the makings of a joke
here but I won't touch it :-)).  Is this a thermopane skylight?  It sounds 
like it isn't and the moisture is condensing on the cold glass much like
steam condenses on kitchen windows.  If not an insulated glass, than perhaps
replacing it with an insulated one would do the job (but probably big $$$'s).

The only other thing that comes to mind is to find out where the moisture is
coming from and try to reduce it.

-mark

   
>    You used the right method with the torch but it really would have
>    been safer with a hot air gun or even one of those 1500 watt blow
>    dryers.
    
 
I had no luck at all with the 1500 w. blow dryer.  I had to resort to the 
torch and that worked great.  A little charring, but not too bad.  
   

    
    RE: .0
    
    I have the same window and same problem!
    
    The window is made with double-pane insulating glass, but this
    doesn't seem to make much of a difference. However, most of our
    moisture build-up was in the dead of winter when it was the coldest.
    
    I am now in the process of moving and leaving the window behind,
    but what I had intended to do [if I wasn't going to move] was to
    make a wooden frame for the inside of the window opening to receive
    a "third" pane. I believe that this would solve the problem, because
    as Mr.[?] Seger suggested in .1, that the window is still too cold
    even with the double panes and condensing moisture on it's surface.
    
    By contrast, I have wooden sliding glass door off of the kitchen,
    that boasts 3/4" insulating glass [Velux, I believe, is 1/2"],which
    never causes condensation. The kitchen, of course produces a lot
    more condensation than our bedroom where the Velux window is.
   
    Charlie
    

I had this problem in my old dorm room at school.  I could get
up to 1/2 inch of ice!!  The room was on the shady side of the
building.  The best thing that I could do was to turn the heat
up a little and leave the shade up.  In the winter the room was
quite dry except for a couple of plants.  I figure that I could
have gotten rid of those, but they seemed to be all that there
was between me and a terrible case of chapped skin lips etc...

R.

    MY BROTHER HAD THIS PROBLEM WITH HIS VELUX.  HIS WAS ONE THAT OPENS.
    IN MY HOUSE WE PUT IN THE KIND THAT DO NOT OPEN AND HAVE HAD NO
    TROUBLE.  HE DID AS WAS PREVIOUSLY SUGGESTED AND HAD A PIECE OF
    PLEXIGLASS CUT TO FIT AND INSTALLED IT AS A THIRD GLASS PAIN.
    
    JUDIE
    
    

.3 gave me a clue when it said to turn the heat up.  That sounds like just
the opposite of what you want to do.  The warmer your room, the bigger the
temperature differential and the result is condensation.  Therefore, if you
cool you room down enough (maybe only a few degrees), the problem may lessen.
Naturally, this is kind of a silly thing to do but it might offer some
temporary relief.

If all else fails, just sleep with your windows open.  Isn't it supposed to
be healty to sleep in a cold room?  :-)

-mark

    
    	My windows arrived Saturday morning!  In the space of about
    four hours of work I've got four of them in.  The person who delivered
    them helped my with the first one.  They really are very easy to
    install.  I didn't believe it until I did it myself.  All the work
    can be done inside of the house.  I don't have to take my old storm
    windows for the installation.  The storms are not really necessary, but
    are new and will keep the weather off of the new windows.  The only
    real work was cutting about two inches off the header trim piece
    on a table saw.  I didn't have to remove the window sills.  Harbor
    Window would have charged $50/window to do the installation.  The
    warranty is valid for DIY installations.
    	The difference is amazing.  The old window glass was wavy and
    difficult to see through, sort of like a fun house mirror.  I use
    to sit and watch the curtains move in the wind.  The new windows
    are weather tight and slide up and down quite easily.  Harbor Thermal
    Window Company was a joy to work with.  They arrived when they said
    they would, delivered the windows 1 week early and helped me with
    the first window for free.  Final cost was $240 for each 30"x60" window
    tax included.  I've got three more windows to install, if anybody
    is interested in seeing them go in, drop me a line.
    
    						=Ralph=

      I had the same problem with  a  sliding  glass door in the condo I
      used to own.  I solved it by adding a sliding glass storm door. So
      the  third  sheet  of  glass/plexiglass  worked  for  me  and will
      probably work four you.
      
      However, the previous question about  where is the moisture coming
      form is a good one.  Do  you  have a bathroom that is not properly
      ventilated?  (Or maybe you don't turn the fan on when you shower?)
      Is this a new house?  If  last  year  was it s first winter you'll
      find that it has  now  dried  out  a  lot  and  you may not have a
      problem any longer.

    I have ANDERSON crank-out windows all around in my house they all
    have that second pane of glass you "snap-in" for winter, however
    that does not seal the crack where window meets frame. each window
    is also equiped with one of those screens that goes onto the inside
    of the frame. my question is; is there a "storm" pane that can be
    purchased that replaces the screens or has anyone tried "covering"
    the screens with plastic and if so do they fit tight enough to do
    any good? is there some kind of weatherstripping that can go on
    to help seal the cracks?(remember this would be on the inside of
    the window so looks is a consideration)
    
    Any help would be appreciated
    Thanks
    Amos Hamburger @IND CYGNUS::HAMBURGER

    I've put plastic over the screens in that situation - seemed to
    work pretty well.  I used the clear 3M heat-shrink-stick-on-with-
    double-sided-tape stuff, and it was practically invisible.
    I've thought about getting some windows made up to replace the
    screens, as you suggest; that would probably be a better long-term
    solution, but I think for practical utility the plastic is fine.
    It did seem to make a difference, too.
    
    Steve

    I made wooden frames for our screened in porch and put 6 mil
    poly(ethylene?) on the frames. This was an easy job and in fact
    my first "carpentry" job with an el-cheapo Sears table saw. 
    This does a good job of heating up our south facing porch.
    In fact we use the porch as a "cold frame" in late winter/early
    spring! 
    As I remember, the price of a 100'*4' roll was <$20.00! 
    As the plastic occassionally(sp) tears, it is replaced with double
    wrapped poly. At least giving me the illusion of "double insulation"

    As observed elsewhere, the poly is not clear so the view outside
    is "muddy". But it is still nice to be able to sit on porch on
    a Nov/Dec day. 
    
    Making separate frames may seem a bit obsessive, but I had fun doing
    it. Furthermore, it becomes a one time investment in the poly so
    perhaps buying a roll of *clear* poly would then be viable. (think
    Spags has the clear 6 mil stuff also,have to check the price)
    
    So now we put screens on in the spring, and "storms" on in the
    fall.

                I wouldn't worry about the seal between the window and
        the frame. Unless your window has excessive wear of some sort,
        the seal built in does a wonderful job when the window is locked
        (you do lock it, don't you?). If you are looking for additional
        thermal efficiency in the glass part, Anderson sells what they
        call a "Triple Glazing Panel" which gets put on outside the
        window. It actually becomes part of the window and swings with
        the movable part(s).
                
                /s/     Bob
                

    I've been checking out windows for the kitchen and found what I
    want, only problem is the company is Marvin Windows... never heard
    of them.
    
    Reputable, good quality???
    
    
    Tnx,
    
    Chris

  Very reliable, very high quality.  Marvin has the reputation of making the
  best wooden windows -- they also make vinyl- and aluminum-clad versions.

  I think their stuff is beautiful.  They are the only company that offers
  real mullions as opposed to the fake snap-in kind.  They offer both
  thermopane alone and regular glass with storms that clip into each sash.
  Their clip-in storm window system is supposed to have a greater R-value
  than thermopane alone (because of a larger airspace).

  JP

    
    re: .0
    
    We have Marvin (un-clad wood because I like it and don't mind the
    infrequent maintainence, and wanted something other than white,
    brown, or bronze window trim) in our house, and I thoroughly agree
    with .1. EXCELLENT quality, right up there with the big names.
    
    re: .1 I hadn't heard about the clip-in storms sashes. Are they
    something that can be retrofit to my dual-pane windows?
    
    Stu
    

  Re: .2

  Not sure if you can retrofit.  The catalog leads me to believe that
  they have two storm systems.  One clips into each sash (so you have
  two storm panels for each window), and the other is a single storm
  that fits into the the outside of the entire window.  You might want
  to check to see if there is a receiving groove in your wondows.

  Are your dual-pane windows a single piece of thermopane per sash?
  Or are they separate pieces of thermopane with the thick mullions
  between them?  (Not to be confused with the single-glaze mullions
  I mentioned in .1.)

  JP    

   
    re: .2 I'm not familiar with the term "mullion", so I can't answer
    the question.
    
    One thing about the Marvin windows: the wiodw frame is built around
    the thermopane, for a much more solid, leakproof window (this as
    opposed to{fitting the glass into a preassembled frame). This 
    techique is wonderful *UNTIL THE GLASS IS BROKEN*. Should that happen,
    you either need someone with cabinetmaking skill, or you have to
    replace frame plus glass (this happened to us while our house was
    beig built.
    

    re mullions see 114.*(?)
    I believe that mullions and lintels are the vertial and horizontal
    moldings that hold the individual 9"*9"(say)  panes on a 6 over 9 or
    9 over 9 window traditional colonial sash (window). The snap in
    kind may well be composed of vertical and horizontal crossbars that
    are also called mullions and lintels.

    
    Thanks, Herb. In that case, I answered the question in .4
    
    Stu
    

    We added a 2nd floor with Marvins throughout and are very happy
    with them.  A couple builders said that they're as good as Pella
    and Andersen but less expensive.

    Are Marvin windows really less expensive than Anderson???
    Then why would anybody buy Anderson?
    

    
    	Yes, Marvin Windows are cheaper than Anderson, but because this
    brand is not as well known a lot of people prefer to go with a name
    brand that they recognize.  I would have chosen Anderson's for my
    house, but because I wasn't in any hurry I took the time to do some
    research and found out about Marvin.  And Marvin also has some 
    beautiful sliding glass doors in addition to their line of windows.
                                                          
    	Conni
    

    RE: Mullions
    
    As I understand mullions (as explained by the carpenter who installed
    my new windows) it is the strip of wood that joints two windows
    together - as such |  The unit as a whole is called a mullion or
    Mullion window.    |
    		       |
                       V
    	--------------+-+--------------
    	| 	      | |	      |
    	|	      | |             |
    	|             | |             |
    	|             | |             |
        |             | |             |
    	+-------------+ +-------------+
    	|             | |             |
    	|             | |             |
    	|             | |             |
    	|             | |             |
    	|             | |             | 
    	===============================
    
	-Bob

    I just completed my third house and I used Marvin Thermopanes
    EVERYWHERE, including sliders.  I'm real happy with them and when
    I had to get parts (cranks for windows over kitchen sink were missing)
    there were no problems either.  I bought from Sundeen Lumber in
    Manchester.
    
    BC
    

    re .10
    
    From American Heritage dictionary-Houghton Mifflin 1970
    
    mullion- A vertical strip dividing the panes of a window

    lintel - The horizontal beam that forms the upper member of a window
    or door frame and supports part of the structure above it
    
    and from De Cristoforo's Housebuilding Illustrated
    
    "Precast lintels, which do the same job that headers do in a wood
    fram, are often used to span the opening over doors and windows"
    
    Win some, lose some
    
    
    			sigh (:-)
    			herb

    
    re: snap-in storm windows: do these replace the screens on the
    inside of crank-out casements?
    
    Stu
    

    RE: .8  Someone has already mentioned that Marvins are cheaper
    than Anderson Windows, but in answer to your question, the reason
    people buy Anderson Windows is because they make a fine product....yes
    they are a brand name, and you pay a little more but let's take it one
    step further.....the Anderson Narrowline Windows do not need to
    be painted @#$$%^&*()!!  I hate to paint windows!  I am very pleased
    with the Andersons.
    
    Chris,
    
    The Marvin Line is very good.  A lot of reputable contratcors are
    using them including the one building our church in Bolton on
    Wataquadoc Hill Road (if you want to take a look).  I recommend
    them highly.  The only companies that offer a non-paintable window
    that I know of are Pella and Anderson.  They are expensive, Pella
    more so than Anderson.  If you are still in the Hudson, Mass. Area,
    check with Lamson's on Lake Street.  You probably know of them already.
    They have Marvins, West Pine, and others besides Marvin, and their
    prices I have found to be real competitive.
    
    ROB

    Just a couple of tidbits...
    
    Marvin sells Marva-Gard (sp?) windows that are clad on the outside.
    That's what we bought for our 2nd floor.
    
    And as to why would anyone buy Andersens: we're winterizing our
    back porch and are going with Andersen because they're the only
    compnay that I've found that makes picture windows that are hinged
    at the top with an awning window mechanism at the bottom so you
    can open these beasts for ventilation.  Using them I'll have maximum
    glass area while retaining vent capability, and I can leave 'em
    open when it rains.

    You want to buy Anderson windows (plus other makes) Then the place
    to buy is J.C. Adams at Fresh Pond Circle in Cambridge. I bought
    Anderson Casements for my whole house when I built it. They have
    (had, or have during certain times of the year, not sure here)
    Truckload sales where you put 25% up front wait six weeks, and get
    your windows. I was able to save $1200 dollars over the same windows
    at Lamsons (Hudson MA.), which was the Lumber yard I used for my
    entire house. 
    
    Another Great feature of Andersons is that they are warrenteed for
    20, yes 20 years against defects. This includes problems wth fogging
    between the thermopane glass.
    
    
    							Dave
    

    We also opted for Marvin windows when building our Bow house.
    They are are excellent windows with very high quality. What
    impressed me is that the sash's are made with single lengths
    of clear pine [fir?] and are not finger-jointed as on some 
    wood windows that I've seen.
    
    For those who don't want an aluminum clad window but *DO* want the
    low maintenance, Marvin offers a type of "enameled" finish [I forget
    the exact name at the moment] which offers the best of both worlds.
    
    [Caution: Sales pitch to follow.]
    
    BTW, it just so happens that I happen to have in my posession [3]
    Marvin casement windows that I am willing to let go very cheaply.
    We made the costly mistake of changing our window layout *after*
    ordering the windows, thinking that we could just send them back.
    Except, because Marvin windows are "made-to-order", there are no
    returns. My loss could be your gain. If interested, send mail to:
    
    SEINE::CJOHNSON

    Charlie

    
    Last year I put up an addition and installed Anderson double hung
    windows with Anderson storms. The only problem I have is with the
    operating design of the storm windows. The screen is fixed so it 
    cannot be raised. If you want completely open the window you would 
    have to either remove the screen, utilizing two side retaining clips, 
    or swing out the entire storm, the storm is supported by two "hinges" 
    at the top, again using two side clips. This is not very comfortable
    to do. You would need a screwdriver to pry the clips and some patience
    to put them back into their slots. I don't know if Anderson re-designed
    this but they should make a standard triple track system.
    
    wayne   

    One window to avoid is RIVCO (a New Hampshire company).  I had Rivco
    windows installed in my house five years ago when I had all of the
    aluminum sash windows replaced with wood sash/insulated glass.  It
    never occured to me to check about and see what might be the best
    window to use - I let the contractor choose what he wanted. 
    
    About five months after the windows were installed, one of the counter
    weight units (a spring with a nylon cord, series of pullies and
    a catch mechanism to support the window) broke.  I thought it was
    something I had done until several more broke.  Now, every window
    in the house has at least one broken counter weight "thingie".
    
    Rivco warrants their window "seals" from fogging, etc. for five years,
    but not the mechanisms, so if I want the windows fixed, I have to
    pay for it.
    
    At the time, Anderson's costs too much for me to use, but now (hind
    sight is always 20/20!) I wish I had looked at other windows instead
    of letting the carpenter choose.
    
    -Bob
                                       

    Not familiar with Marvin Windows, but if you specify what it is
    that you are looking for, I might be able to give info on other
    sources; am putting up an addition with all types of windows, and
    have been to quite a few places!
    -reed
    

    Anderson windows are fine if you like snap-in grills. Personally,
    I think snap-in grills look lousy. I've used Brosco windows and
    have been very pleased with them plus I think they look a hell of
    a lot better then Anderson windows.

    
    re .21
    
    	As far as I know, BROSCO windows are Anderson windows. Just
    a different line.
    
    							Mark
    

    re .-1 
    Not sure what you are trying to say. Brosco windows are not Anderson
    windows with a different name. Put the two windows side by side
    and that becomes obvious. 
    

    Brosco *sells* Anderson windows (among other things).  It is the
    same Anderson line that you find anywhere else.  They also sell
    other windows.

    One of the window sills on my house is rotting out. I considered
    removing the entire window and making a new sill, but the house
    would freeze by the time I got it put back. 
    
    Has anyone tried using vinyl or aluminum to cover the sills? I believe
    siding contractors often do this when residing a house, but I haven't
    seen these materials at the local home center. 
    

    I had the same problem some years ago. What I did was soak the sill
    with linseed oil then used galvinized sheet metal. I just removed
    the window when I put on an addition, it hadn't rotted beyond the
    point of when I did the repair. That would be the best fix until
    spring when you could do the job correctly. You could remove just
    the sill by cutting it in half, sliding the two pieces out, then 
    sliding a new one in with out removing the whole window.
                                           
    dave

    I have a large, north-facing window in the living room, flanked by two
    smaller windows that open.  It is a wonderful place to hang my stained
    glass.  But it looses a hideous amount of heat even though it is double
    paned and tight. 
    
    What are some options for insulating the windows at night yet permitting
    a full view during the day?  I have considered drapes, blinds, and
    quilts.  Of the three (and the many variations) I think I like the quilt
    the best, but I was quoted $300 if I install it myself.
    
    I am also playing with an idea of covering 2" styrofoam panels with
    fabric, then building some sort of interior shutters out of them. But
    I'm afraid the sutters would sag and droop after a while. (Maybe if I
    added a sill for them to rest on...) 
    
    Are there any other options I'm overlooking?  Where can I look for
    window quilts at a better price?  Has anyone ever seen "interior
    shutters"?
    
    
    John B.

    If the problem is not extensive, there are a number of epoxy wood
    fillers on the market to fill in rotted wood. I assume that the
    sill is wood? Perhaps you have an aluminum sill rotting from radon
    vapors oozing from your basement. In this case, there is no cure
    and your entire house will be reduced to a rotting pile of scrap
    in 6 to 8 weeks.

    Have a happy Thanksgiving!
    Charlie

    If you find reasonably priced window quilts in the Greater Marlboro,
    Boston area, please post it here.  I've been looking around for
    several years to have some made for my living room and found that
    I was financially better off to loose the heat then spend all that
    money on window quilts.
    
    Please keep me in mind if you find a supplier of reasonably priced
    and attractive window quilts.
    
    Judie
    
    

    You might try the heat shrink plastic kits which are sold in hardware
    stores.  I've used them with varying degrees of success on some
    large skylights.  They seem to insulate pretty well.  At least the
    snow that falls on them doesn't seem to melt nearly as fast as before.
    The big problem is that the adhesive tape that holds them in place
    has a tendency to pull away from the surface below.  Clean the
    substrate thoroughly before applying.  I've mounted  the plastic
    on the molding on the wall around the window leaving about 10" of
    space between the plastic and glass.  You may want to mount it closer
    to the glass if you need access to the sill.  The stuff is invisible
    if you carefully trim the edges ( that is, until the tape  starts
    to pull away).

    We've been using the plastic interior window coverings for three
    years now...and have been pleased.  We have a 100 year old Victorian
    with 50+ strange shaped windows, and no storm windows!  The plastic
    works great...but it is a pain to put up.  We buy plastic by the
    roll from the Boston Building Coop.  We find that the shelf-liner
    mounting tape sold by our local Heartland is much cheaper (and works
    just as well) as the stuff sold by 3M for mounting the shrink-plastic!
    We have run into different 'lots' of the shelf-liner tape: one clear
    and one opaque white.  There is no notation on the package...and
    the two packages look identical.  This year's lot appears to be
    all clear, however...so far at least!
    

Friends of mine bought the Window Quilts 3 yrs ago and are really satisfied
with them.  They had a huge Gambrel house that was built in 1970 with lots of 
Double hung and 2 huge single pane Bay windows, minimal wall insulation, and 
a Sliding Glass door on the other side of the house.  Sitting in the living 
room, you could actually feel cold air drafts blowing around your feet.  Anyhow
they spent $1500 for the Quilts and have noticed a remarkable difference.  These
are high Quality Quilts, and they got them for everything, including the sliding
door.  I've gone over there on REALLY COLD days, and the quilts are all down,
but they billow out in the center of the quilt over the bow windows over 1 foot
from the cold air trying to come in!  They've noticed a return already on their
investment from lower heating bills!  These Quilts have a bar pressing against
the quilt and the top of the window, slide rails down the sides that hold the 
quilt tight against the window and a weighted bar that sits on the windowsill
to hold the bottom tight against the sill.  I'm impressed with them!

My mother-in-law put the 3M plastic window cover on for the last 2 years, and
has been impressed with it.  She lives in the D.C. area and her house has almost
no insulation and 2 single pane Bay windows and a sliding glass door.  Same 
thing with the cold air on your feet.  She would like to insulate, but you 
mention any kind of house remodeling down there, and you start talking big 
bucks that she can't afford, and being divorced with the kids away, has no one
that can do it for her.  She doesn't like the looks of the Quilts, so she hasn't
gone that route.  But as someone else said you have to make sure the area under
the tape is really clean, best bet is to wipe it with a clean damp cloth and let
it dry thoroughly before putting the tape down.

  Just taking your 2" styrofoam idea a bit further...

  Rather than building interior shutters out of this stuff, why not just
  cut them to fit tightly in the window opening?  Of course you then have
  to have a place to store them during daylight hours.

  JP

My wife has now made three sets of Warm Windows roman shades (6 windows
total).  You buy a multiple layer (mylar, etc.) quilt fabric from
Fabrictown in Reading, MA and you follow the directions to sew on a
cover fabric of your choice.   While sewing on the cover fabric, you
incorporate strip magnets (also available at Fabrictown) on each side, a
rod, the loops, etc.  You mount the shade either on the outside molding,
inside the window, or in a combined (so-called hybrid) mount.  Then you
put down more magnetic strips on the window molding.  When the Warm
Window is down, the magnets make a tight seal, and it is dramatically
warmer in the room. 

Highly recommended.  But you need a sewing machine and a fairly good 
idea of how to sew.  

Apparently Fabrictown is the only store that sells the stuff in the 
Greater Boston area.  The have examples on display.

Alex

    RE .4
    
    Styrofoam and UV rays do not get along very well together.
    The styrofoam (not beadboard) should be covered.
    
    -al

Unfortunately, the clear plastic shrink wrap idea seems to be the only method
that still allows you to see through the window, at least marginally.  Are there
any other methods of insulating a window that still allow you to use the window
for what it was meant for???

Or is the best idea to have N pane windows?

Jim still_would_like_a_large_skylight 

    I have repaired several sills in my house while I was doing a residing
    job. The sill was basically shot only on the part outside of the
    house, that is, the piece that extends beyond the frame of the window.
    I cut off the old rotted sill, then created a new one out of a piece
    of good pine. you could also use new sill material from the lumberyard
    but it is expensive to buy, just to cut it down the middle and use
    half. I used some molding planes and made a new one the correct
    shape. The new one then is pre-drilled and coated with the two part
    reddish glue that is waterproof and then screwed into place. the
    resulting glue/screw joint is very strong and nearly invisible once
    a wood plug is glued over the screw head and the sill painted/dtained
    to match. 
    
    For this winter, I would go with the BOILED linseed oil frick and
    worry about it next spring when the weather is nicer.

    Improving the overall insulating value of a GOOD double-pane window
    is just not easy (nowhere nearly as easy as improving that of a
    SINGLE-pane window, the subject of many of the replies).
    
    For example, a layer of shrink-wrap can halve the heat loss from
    a single-pane window (or even do better if the window wasn't tight
    to begin with), but will reduce loss from a good double-pane window
    only around 30% (only around 20% if it's a "Low-E" window):  that
    means that in the single-pane case, if each square foot of window
    was losing heat at the rate of 45 BTU/hour, you'll save around 22
    BTU/hour per square foot, which is pretty respectable; for the
    double-pane case, however, the losses were only 15 - 22 BTU/hour
    per square foot to begin with, and improvement will therefore be
    in the 3 - 7 BTU/square foot per hour range.
    
    The same kinds of things happen to the figures with use of
    insulating shutters - or (less effective) shades - or (even less
    effective) drapes:  if you start off with a good double-pane window,
    the potential for improvement is much reduced.  Consider that even
    with a PERFECT (R-infinity) insulator that's in place 14 hours out
    of every 24, the (averaged-out) heat saving is only 8 - 13 BTU/square
    foot per hour...
    
    On the other hand, on sunny days, there's some compensation:  even
    a North-facing window does collect some diffuse radiation, and if
    the window is not shaded externally it's actually close to enough
    to break even during the daylight hours - which means that good
    night-time insulation turns out to be a more effective approach
    than additional glazing layers, and a combination of the two the
    best of all.
    
    Shutters that open inward can make use of the interior space awkward.
    One option is to use a shutter that folds up to store on the ceiling,
    rather than outward into the room.  Another ceiling-based shutter
    that intrudes less into the room during its swing would operate
    similarly to a garage door in tracks (if segmented, the intrusion
    would be very minimal).  Shutters that emerge from ceiling, floor,
    or neighboring wall cavities are likely only feasible when designed
    into the building from the start.
    
    Given that glass is pretty opaque to UV, insulation break-down may
    not be at issue for an interior shutter (especially for a North-
    facing window).  However, a fabric facade would improve the external
    appearance (internal also if it's exposed when open).
    
    Good luck,		- Bill
    

    my project for tonight when I get home is to cut the foam bought this
    morning for window insulation, so I've been looking into this problem
    recently.  and last night, my brand-new state-of-the-art Andersen
    double-glazed low-E windows all had condensation forming on the inside,
    as the temperture dipped to 14 F outside while we tried to maintain 68
    inside... (sorry, Bill, you may be right in .9 about the ease, but
    the necessity remains :-()
    
    If you decide to build your own "shutters" from rigid foam, better
    plan to frame them with some wood - the foam is fairly brittle.
    I just bought some 1" foil-faced foam reportedly about R 8, was
    told that the R value for 1" of blue or pink foam was about R5.
    I think the pink or blue may be less brittle, but the foil-faced
    took several dings in the course of normal handling while getting
    it home.
    
    We will probably keep some of the windows in this, use window quilts
    on others, and perhaps buy custom-made insulating shutters for a
    couple, depending on asthetics.
    
    Interesting coincidence, on my way to pick up the foam this morning
    I noticed a sign for a product called InsulShutter (for the first time,
    on a street I travel fairly frequently).  I stopped to check it
    out, they use 3/4" rigid foil-faced foam core with 1/8" air gap
    either side, as the center of custom-made hardwood shutters or louvers.
    They were very attractive, and are rated at R9.1 with a single-glazed
    window.  I do not have pricing, think it depends on size and finish
    (they offer basswood, birch, oak, or mahogny as I recall).  I will
    bring the brochure tomorrow and post contact info - I can't say
    enough good about the appearance (it's actually as good or better
    than the brochure), the performance in their office seemed quite
    good, and the people seemed good.  Can't say about quality, consistency
    etc. but if first impressions are accurate it will be ok...

re:-1

Wow...  If you're getting condensation at 14F you must be living in a 
steam room.  I installed Andersens over 6 years ago and with 
temperatures as low as -10 (or was it -20) I have never seen any 
condensation at all.  In fact, that room with 4 large casements was the 
warmest room in the house.  I admit I heated it with wood and that keeps 
the humidity down, but even so, I shouldn't think it a problem.

-mark

    re:-1  -  what configuration are your Andersens, double or triple
    glazed?  and do you have any additional insulation, storm windows
    or such?
    
    our humidity could be pretty high, we did make an effort to boost the
    humidity when we first started staying in the house a couple of weeks
    ago - right now the woodstove is not yet online so we are heating with
    the gas hot air furnace.  I would expect that to be fairly dry but the
    house is quite tight so it might have retained a lot of humidity from
    earlier (after stacking the woodpile in the rain last week my garments
    were soaked so I expect they released considerable amounts of humidity
    into the house while drying). 
    
    early results of the foam panels are in from last night.  One of the
    windows that got them also houses the indoor/outdoor thermometer, which
    ended up on the outside of the foam, so I got readings for outdoors and
    between the foam and the window last night (and I'd had the reading for
    outdoors and inside from the previous night, before the foam).  The
    foam is cut with about 1/4" to spare since the first cut was attempted
    to exact size and was difficult to fit or trim - this may have reduced
    efficiency somewhat but results still seem to indicate significant gain
    - foam edges are taped with duct tape to protect them and the window
    wells.  Results should be pretty comparable for the past two nights,
    outdoor temperture seemed to be within a couple of degrees of the same
    reading both nights, and the thermostat setting was approximately the
    same. Two nights ago the thermometer read about 63 F for the indoor
    temp on the windowsill (well away from any heating ducts) when it was
    14 F outside, with slight condensation noticed.  This morning, after
    the foam had been in place overnight, the thermometer read 54 F in the
    window well (outside of foam) with the outside temperture about 18 F.
    There was also a great deal more condensation covering most of the
    window, I'd assume because the heat lost out the window was not being
    replaced due to the foam panel.
    
    I would expect considerable improvement from a better seal between
    the panel and the window well - another reason that I would plan
    for a finished unit having a wood frame.  My experience trying to
    cut and trim the foam panel convinces me that it would be far easier
    to get acceptable fit by making the wood frame and then inserting
    the foam panel (possibly caulking with canned foam if there are
    any large chinks) before covering with fabric or other finish material.
    The one thing that struck me when figuring plans for such units was
    that I needed something like 150' of wood for the framing, just
    for the windows that concern me most - that suggests that this project
    will take longer than I originally expected...

    here is the contact info promised in .10, along with a few sample
    prices.
    
    InsulShutter (tm of First Law Products)
    P. O. Box 888
    Island Mill, 69 Island Street
    Keene, NH 03431
    
    (603) 352-2726	
    (ask for Kelly Harvey, mention the reference in this file)
    
    right now they are extending Fall Sale prices (40% off) for orders entered
    soon, not sure how long that will last.
    
    model:   Aspen		Stowe		Glenwood	InsulLouvers
    	(recessed panels)  (raised panels)   (flush panels)	(louvers)
    24x24    $105		$125		$92		$98
    24x36    $156		$186		$136		$146
    24x48    $207		$247		$180		$194
    36x36    $232		$277		$201		$217
    36x48    $306		$366		$264		$286
    48x48    $401		$481		$346		$374
    96x96   $1297		$1617		$1050		$1190
    
    the price list goes up to 104"x104" and I was told that they will
    quote prices beyond that by extending the cost per square foot up
    to the desired size.  The prices are figured based on square footage
    plus some factor for setup/trim/waste/etc that goes down as size
    increases - so 24 h x 36 w is the same as 36 h x 24 w, etc.
    
    also, the units come preassembled and framed, there are two different
    framing styles possible, one ("inside mount) mounting within the window
    well and the other ("face mount") mounting on the wall surrounding the
    well, measurements specified for ordering are the outside frame
    dimensions in either case so the mount style affects size requirements.
    They recommend face mounting because the fit requirements can be less
    precise and because window wells often are not precisely square in all
    dimensions. 
    
    I've got to see how those prices fit with the budget, one problem
    I have with purchasing "window quilts" is that the cost seems so
    high, these seem expensive too but they are very aesthetic and have
    a higher R value - on the other hand, my rough homebuilt foam panels
    may turn out to be hundreds of dollars cheaper even if they are
    less aesthetic....
    
    I'll probably end up with one or two of the shutters situated for
    visual effect, window quilts (either bought or homemade) on a couple of
    windows that wouldn't look right with shutters, and the rest homemade
    foam panels - the precise mix will depend on tradeoffs between budget
    and aesthetics. 

re:11

I just have double glazed windows.  I had looked into triple and the 
salesperson told me there wasn't a whole lot of payback so I figured I 
could always add the removeable pane later if I wanted to.  I never 
bothered.

If you have a lot of moisture in your house and are going to do some 
heating with wood, I'd hold off panicing until you get the house dried 
off some.

-mark

    What are the signs of leakage through the glass?  I have large casement
    windows and do not have any window treatment.  The windows are double
    pane and supposed to be efficient. I can not feel any temparaute
    difference near the window or near a wall.  Does that mean that the
    windows are efficient enough? 
    
    Do the vinyl blinds or clothes blinds have any insulating properties
    at all?

- Vikas    

    
    re: .15
    
    Normal blinds/shades do help somewhat, both in reducing radiational
    and convective losses. However, both are "leaky" enough not to be
    much of a solution.
    
    

I wonder how hard it would be to produce double pane windows with a vaccum in
between...?  That would insulate *real* well.  You could even put a BB sized
glass disk every inch or so to keep the panes apart.  This would be especially
nice for large window/skylights/domes where you would not get close enough to
focus on the spacers...

Jim

I've thought of that before too.  I don't think glass BBs would work, because 
they'd be basically impossible to keep in place.  You'd have to have some sort 
of glass spacer relatively frequently to hold the pressure, and they'd have to 
be attached to the panes.  The conductance of all that continuous glass area 
would probably cancel out most of the gain from the vacuum.

But if I could think of a way to do it, I'd be able to retire now and live on 
the proceeds.

Paul

I doubt that the beads would move around much...  Remember, there's 14 pounds of
pressure on each of those BBs, from the air pushing the panes together. That's
why the BBs are there in the first place!  If there was not enough pressure to
keep them in place, you would not need them in the first place!

The hard part, I would think is making a vaccum tight seal that will last at
least 10 years, or having a setup that would make it easy to revaccum the
windows every couple of years, or whatever...

IT's my idea, I'd hope you'd at least split the illgotten gains... :-)

Hmm, actually, probably now, DEC has a good claim on it... :-)

Jim.

    I think it read an article in Rodale's _New Shelter_ (now _Practical
    Homeowner_?) on exotic window manufacturing techniques such as vacumn
    glass.  The problems they are running into involve things like laser
    welding the two pieces together to form a leak proof seam -- only
    it still leaks or the process is expensive or something...
    
    
    John B.

    Sorry, but I've read (forget where) that such windows are already
    under development.  Instead of BB-sized spacers, much smaller (well
    under 1mm) beads are used that are not obvious from any reasonable
    distance:  with a good vacuum, after all, there's no need for greater
    glass-to-glass spacing (and presumably this makes it easy to get
    a good edge seal as well:  just weld the panes together at their
    edges).
    
    An R-value of around 11 was mentioned:  enough to generate some
    heat gain even from an otherwise uninsulated window facing due North
    (as long as it's not too shaded from diffuse radiation), and certainly
    sufficient to make additional insulating shades, panels, or whatever
    pretty unnecessary.
    
    The idea is at least a few years old, and it's not clear why
    manufacture would present any insuperable problems (one would expect
    volumes to be high, to say the least).  Just have to wait and see,
    though.
    			- Bill
    

    Well, I CAN think of one problem that might be delaying things:
    just how do you handle the differential contraction that results
    when two good-sized, edge-welded panes of glass experience the
    close-to-100-degree-F. temperature differences that often are seen
    during a Northern winter?  While I don't know what the relevant
    physical constants are, I'd guess that this might place a fairly
    restrictive limit on a pane's largest dimension.
    
    Now, using two or three sets of vacuum-separated pairs would tone
    down the differential experienced by each, but now you're talking
    a VERY expensive window...
    
    And if you give up on edge-welding, then maintaining the vacuum
    over years gets really difficult.
    
    Too bad.  Hope they do work it out.		- Bill
    

    I've got 2 sills to replace, along with a threshold.  I've seen
    thresholds in lumberyards; do they also carry windowsills?
    
    Dick
    

    I've also read [somewhere] where they're experimenting with
    "insulated glass". No, no, not "insulatING glass" but glass
    with a lower "U" value, by infusing microscopic air particles
    with the glass itself resulting in a lower "U". This seems
    more feasible than "evacuated" glass for the reasons mentioned
    in .22.
    
    Charlie

I would not think that that would work all that well...  Each time the light
hits an interface between glass and air, and probably not a perpendicular
interface at that, the light will refract...  You might get some interesting
effects, but any appreciatable insulating glass woulf not be transparant. 

Jim.

    Does anyone have a recent Marvin retail price list. I think that
    I want to use Marvin and they have a number of options I can use.
    
    Problem:
    
       1. The new renovation is 3 hours away at this point [we'll move
    in the spring to do the work].
    
       2. I would prefer not to bother my local supplier because I'm
    not going to buy from him. {Remember, it's 3 hours away.}
    
       3. I'd like to be able to sit down and compare my alternatives.
    
    We have 36+ windows and 4 doors to replace on this project.
    
    Thanks
    
    Howard

    I need some help about replacement window sashes.  I've read most
    of the notes in this conference about windows, but I think I need
    more advice.
    
    I'm fixing an old (1902) house with *OLD* windows.  I don't want
    to go through the expense of buying all new replacement windows,
    but I'd like to replace the sashes, since they're really cruddy.
    
    How much work is it to put in replacement sashes?  Do they just
    fit?  I was going to keep the original window weights and cords;
    I figure it will be less work that way.  My biggest fear is that
    I'll need to trim (with a saw), every window. I can't imagine getting
    this right without a *real* good table saw.
    
    thanks,
    ..bill
    

    
    	I went through the window scene last fall.  I did a lot of
    investigation and ended up putting in replacement windows.  The
    first thing you must determine is what you are trying to do with
    the windows.
    	If you are just trying to get them to open and close, you might
    be able to rebuild the existing sashes.  I have a copy of the _Old
    House Journal_ which gives instructions.  This was not an option
    for me because my sashes were rotted and held together with angle
    brackets.  It is the least expensive option, but does not leave
    you with very efficient windows.
    	You can get replacement sashes, but don't expect to go into
    Grossmans and order them from a catalogue.  I found an outfit (listed
    in the OHJ catalogue) that would make new sashes for about $65 for
    a 30" x 30" sash.  Each sash would have to be custom made for the
    opening because more often than not the window sizes are not all
    equal.                             
    	After weighing all the options I ended up getting Harbor
    replacement windows for $230 for a 30 x 60" window.  I did the easy
    installation.  Replacement windows were expensive, but they leave
    the house toasty warm on these cold days.  If you want some more
    info, just send mail.
    					=Ralph=

    I'm going to install a bay window on Saturday (Marvin Sunbay) and
    am looking for hints/kinks.
    
    I plan on sticking the window in the opening (good start?) and,
    after shimming, nailing throught the outside casing only.  No nails
    in the sash, right?  I will then install two knee braces into studs
    with lag bolts.  It seems too simple, is it?
    
    What do you call the aluminum strip that goes above the window (sorta
    like a drip edge)?
    
    tnx
    
    Chris

>>        What do you call the aluminum strip that goes above the window (sorta
>>    like a drip edge)?
    
    It's called flashing, but I think most people also call it drip
    edge.
    
    -al

    I believe the proper method might entail most of the following.
    
    Equipped with a desire to add a window, you need an assortment of
    various tools (which you already know what these are).
    
    Open the inside wall to one stud larger than your rough opening
    (RO).
    Be sure the opening is from the floor to almost the ceiling. Too
    close to the ceiling will fracture your nice ceiling. Next you will
    need to locate a header just under the top wall plate. The header
    should be 3" longer than the desired RO and is usually 2x10s padded
    to the width of the wall. The header is stood on end. Next put in two
    wall studs, outside of the header you just installed. These go from
    the top of the bottom plate to the bottom of the top plate. Next install
    a sill plate to complete the desired lower height RO. Install jacks
    from the top of the bottom plate to the bottom of the sill plate.
    After that is done, jack from the top of the sill plate to the
    underside of the window header. Add additional cripples under the
    window sill plate as needed. 16" OC for 2x4 or 24" OC for 2x6 walls. 
            
    So much for the RO preperation. OH, BTW when constructing the RO
    use the level and framing square liberally.
    
    Now, if you are installing the window under a soffett, the outside
    is a piece of cake. If you are installing the window on a gable
    side of the house, you will need to build a roof over the window.
    This can be done with a standard homemade 2x4 and plywood setup
    or you can purchase one of those copper looking plastic covers.
    You should make up your mind before cutting the hole on the outside
    of the house. 
    
    Be sure to also have cripples where you are going to install your
    knee braces on the outside under the window.
    
    Next I would drill holes from the inside out from the corners of
    the RO. Next I would ask the wife and kids to leave (if they already
    hadn't). Then I would scribe the RO on the outside of the house.
    I would then fire up the chain saw and cut the hole.
    
    Now if you have one of those plastic copper looking roofs, tack
    it up over the siding, and scribe the exposed shape of it on hte
    siding. This plactic cover is intended to slip under the siding.
    You'll have to loosen the siding for installation. Cut out the line
    you just scribed the best you can with what you have. Be sure to
    shim out the siding from the wall studs before cutting. Using this
    plastic roof will not require you to have a top window flashing.
    Install the plastic thing using a grnerous amount of GOOD caulking.
    Be sure where ever you are going to apply caulk, both surfaces are
    primed or sealed with your favorite paint/stain.
    
    Next caulk (GOOD stuff always) the complete external RO. Insert
    window and tack with galvinized nails. From the inside shim the
    window to square and level. Once you are square and level, check
    the outside casing for square and level. Set a couple of the tacks.
    Check again inside and out for square and level. Check for smooth
    operating moving glass (if you have them). Nail window in place.
    Secure plastic roof to top of window. Install knee braces on the
    outside of the window bottom at a suitable angle as specified to
    the wall studs.
    
    From the inside of the house, insulate everyplace you can get at.
    Shimming should be left at the corners and once in the sides. A
    couple at the bottom won't hurt.
    
    Replace all sheetrock and mud. Nail the inside casing (finish nails)
    through the shimming. Paint/wallpaper then add mouldings. Finish
    mouldings BEFORE installation.
    
    NOW, if you are putting the window under a soffit. Insert window
    as stated above. Locate 2x2s from top of window to soffit. Cover
    with thin sheet of plywood. This will follow the contour of the
    bay window. Don't forget to seal and caulk.
    
    IF, you aren't using the plastic rook, you'll need to construct
    a small roof, which will overhang the window. Use 2x4s which would
    connect from the house studs to the window mullions. Cover with
    plywood and shingle like your roof to suit your taste.
    
    As you can see, this is a good warm weather project, during a nice
    day. Staging would be helpfull as would a strong relative or friend.
    Also having the wife and kids stay over someone's house for the
    weekend might be a good idea. Also large quantities of beer for
    washing down all of the dust you will be eating.
    
    good luck
    dana

    I think .2 was one of the best, and most complete responses I have ever
    seen!  The only variation I had was that my bay window was wider and
    much heavier.  As a result, I built the roof first, then suspended most
    of the weight of the window from the roof (based on manufacturer's
    recommendation.  Due to the weight, I believe I also put the supports
    and a plywood platform (shaped like the window) in first, to support the
    window.  It took 4 adults to lift the window and everyone was in a big
    hurry as it was an hour before kickoff of the Patriots/Bears Superbowl.
    My window was a victory and the Patriots were soon to be history. 
                                                             
    Tom
    
    

    A clarification:  I am removing two kitchen windows, so the opening
    is already there.  I have a 2x6 header and I am assuming that the
    frame will take the weight of the window.  I'm also assuming that
    the knees take some of the weight from the projection (18") so that
    the top of the window does not pull away from the house.  I will
    be resting it on staging and blocking it up until I can slide it
    in.  I would guess the weight is about 80-90 pounds.  Hmmm, that
    brings up a point.  The window RO sill is just a 2x4, is that enough?
    
    BTW, this window does not need a roof.  It has a glass roof already
    built in, kinda like a greenhouse.  Looks like all I need is the
    drip edge at the top.
    
    Thanks for all the info.  I'll give you the post-mortem on Monday.
    
    Chris

        I did something different.  I ordered insulated sashes from
    Butler lumber for $80 each.  Got the tilt out balances for $30 each
    and spend about 1 hour installing them.  I order the hardware on
    the side so that I can cut the edge to my specications.  I used
    my table saw on the first one and a straight edge and skill saw
    on the rest.  so far I am very pleased with the results and insulating
    powers.
    
        Also when I pull out the old window I remove the cords, rollers,
    and weight.  Next stuff this hole with insulation and no more drafts.
    
        So far I have done by window glass a 14x20, 28x28 and 32x30,
    every one costs about the same regardless of the size.
    
        By the way I ask all these companies if they can beat this price
    and they quit calling.

    RE: .2
    
        Hmmm..  This sounds alot like what I'd like to do.  I'd probably
    go with non-insulating sashes 'cause the house has brand new storms.
    How much work did it take to trim the new sashes to the old window
    dimensions?  I've got 14 windows to do.
     This sounds very interesting...
    
    
    ..bill

    Today I did my third window.  It took 3 hours, along with answering
    the phone 6 times and making lunch.  It came out looking very nice.
    
    I went for insulated sashes even though I have storm windows.  the
    one window that has noninsulated is very noticeable in relation
    to the others.
    
    work involved.  Screw driver to remove cords, weights and pullies.
    same screw drives to pry out the strips between the windows.  saved
    the top strip and cut to fit after installing the balances.  Same
    screw driver to push insulation into holes.  new balances cover
    the holes so don't worry about not looking good.  Hammer and electrical
    staples for the 4 clips as per instructions that come with supply.
    Fist to pust balance onto spring clips.  *note here I used the table
    saw to cut 1/8 inch off the end of the balance so it sits flush.
    Used skil saw and 1/2 of a plywood saw guide to cut sides of sashes
    to fit.  Hammer pegs to end of window being careful as to top and
    bottom.  Tilt and install.  At this point I usually have to use
    a hammer and chisel to remove 1/4 inch from the inside of the window
    still to make the window come down flush.  Sand and paint if so
    desired.  *I also install a 1/4 inch peice foam insulation at the
    top.  It does not seam to make much difference insulation wise but
    makes a nice tight fit.
    
    All this and lunch too.  Not bad for a saving of $100.

    OK.  I think I'll dare to do this.  What's the scoop on Brosco
    replacement sashes?  Are they junk, or are they OK.  I'm trying
    to get this done fairly cheap, since this will be a rental apartment.
    One supplier quoted me ~$50. per window for single glazed sashes.
    Also, are there different types of balances?  Maybe you could mail
    me your DTN for a chat.
    
    thanks alot,
    ...bill
                                      

    	I am considering using Pella windows when I remodel my
    house. I am looking for some opinions on Pellas quality.
    How do they compare with other windows such as Anderson?
    How do they compare in price with other windows? And finaly,
    do they only make contempory looking windows or do they make
    windows that would keep with the character of an old cape?
    
    						Thank's
    						Mike
    

	Pella == "mucho $$$$$$"

	They are however outstanding quality windows.  I looked at Pella
	windows when I was building my house, but settled for the Andersons
	instead.  I don't think there is another window that can compare
	quality-wise and expensiveness-wise to Pellas.  They do have a 
	good selection.

	I believe there is a Pella distributor somewhere around Acton/495
	area in Mass.

	-gary

    I used Pella thru my whole house.  They do make double hung windows.
    I assume that's what you're talking about.  I used casements.  I
    compared them with Anderson and thought that the millword looked
    much better on Pella. 
    But they cost more, too.  The Pella distributor for all of New England
    is in Littleton Mass.  You can buy the windows directly from there,
    and you'll get them faster.
                        

    There's a Pella warehouse more or less at the junction of route
    2 and 495.  I think it's on Taylor Road in Littleton; anyway, 
    it's right next to the communter train station in Littleton.
    I think that place is just a warehouse, you'd probably have to
    go to a local lumberyard to order the windows, but maybe not I've
    never actually been there and inquired.

    
    Pella windows is located right next to the DEC plant on Foster St.
    in Littleton.
    John

    ...and they do have a sales office there.
    
    Jim D.

    I used Pella's in my addition - THE BEST.  The cost isn't as high
    as everyone thinks:
    30x36 casement with low-E glass was $244
    30x20 awning with low-E glass was $196
    both were vinyl clad exterior
    
    You usually cannot order them through a lumberyard.  No need to
    - just call (in Mass) 800-892-0218 or 617-486-3548 to get the Littleton
    Warehouse at 265 Foster Street (about a mile down from LTN on the
    right - easy to miss).  The deliver for free, or you can pick up
    youself (will save at most a week, since they seem to make it
    everywhere each week).
    
    The quality of the millwork is far superior to Anderson.  I got
    an anderson for downstairs (I was pissed at the local Pella dealer
    in Auborn - but just found out that Littleton closed him down, so
    there IS a God!), and the price was almost the same and the quality
    of the window was poor.
    
    Pella is also the only manufacturer (I never understood why) what
    has 'slimshades,' which are thin blinds that fit between the two
    panes of glass (no more dusting, no more curtains, etc), but are
    controlled by a knob on the inside. Nice feature.
    
    Just to complete the pricing info, they have 6' sliders and french
    doors for $925.
    
    If you somehow get a copy of their price list, beware that everyone
    gets a discount, not just contractors.  They also run specials,
    such as homeowner discounts, where you get another 5 or 10% off
    if the order totals (for instance) 3K or 5K at list prices.
     
   So, either get Pella, or just get a Brosco.
    -reed
    

    My brother-in-law had a new house built about 7 years ago with Pellas
    throughout and today is quite dissatisfied with them.  It seems
    that the inner pane of glass snaps in and is held with little clips.
    During the winter months the 'dead' air comes to life enough to
    frost the windows.  If he had it to do over again, he'd go with
    Andersen or Marvin.
    
    Pete

    I grew up with Pellas.  My dad is a contractor in Iowa.   Seems they
    favor supporting their own (Pella's are manufactured in Pella, Iowa) in
    that neck of the woods.   I believe the Littleton plant is a "staging"
    plant - that is where they take the component pieces of your big
    picture or bay window and bolt them together.
    
    Pella's can't be outdone.   I wanted to have them put in my house, but
    the builder wouldn't change.  I did replace a rather large picture
    window in my previous house with a Pella. The double panes are actually
    two single panes with one panel which can be removed.  This is how the
    mini-blinds fit in.   You can get a reflective glass (sort of "copper
    colored") to replace the inner panels.   My dad uses them on his
    house.  They prevent the sun from blowing you away in the summer,
    and in the winter they help reflect heat back into the house.

    
    RE.6> What's a Brosco? A cheap window??
    
    	Does Pella Have divided double hung windows such as 6 over 6,
    or do they just have plastic inserts for effect?
    

>    RE.6> What's a Brosco? A cheap window??
 
    Brosco is a millwork company that hangs doors, puts together windows
    to your specs, etc.  They don't really manufacture doors and windows
    from scratch.  They aren't necessarily cheap.  They hang and sell
    Marvin doors which are good.
    
    I've never had a problem with my Pella windows frosting between
    the panes.  (And my house is cold).  I've installed the mini-blinds
    between the panes that were referred to earlier.  I recommended
    having it done in Littleton when you buy the windows.  It's tricky
    to do unless you've done a lot of them.
    

    There's only a slim chance a builder would include Pella windows
    in new home construction....unless he's building a development
    for criminal lawyers and brain surgeons in the N. Andover.. Andover
    area. (MASS.) Andersons are chosen because the name is synonymous
    with quality and the discount to builders is better.
    
    I CAN'T argue against the fact that Pella DOES makes a nice window
    but from my experience Andersons are a good unit for the money,
    and their basic design of their entire line has remained consistent
    for many many years. AND nobody has said anything about warranty!!!
    
    Anderson has a 20 year warranty. I'm not familiar w/ Pellas.
    In either case though, I must admit, You get what you pay for....
    The Pellas are just a tad more $$$, Tough to quantify exactly what
    more you get for your mony when buying Pella, when decisions are
    very close usually the visual aspect enters in.....
                                            
    Mark 
    

When I looked at Pellas around 5 years ago, they were around 5% more 
than Andersens.  The sales person convinced me the difference was well 
worth it because they are indeed quality.  However, what he didn't tell 
me is that nobody sells andersens for list.  I got my andersens for 25% 
less than Pellas and that added up to lots of $$$!

-mark

Try again on this note (JOET is  hard to get to these days)...
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

We almost bought a Pella bay window, but, due to a delay in plans, we
have not yet had the hole through the masonry made nor purchased that
window.  In the meantime, we have heard the following: 

1) Anderson's warranty is very strong--apparently better than the Pella.
And the Anderson support network is better in New England. 

2) The problem with misting noted in an earlier reply is not hard to
imagine when you look at the construction of the Pella window.  Their
design does, however, make for an easily enclosed blind. 

3) I have heard that Pella had a difficult time with Low E glass--some
kind of wrinkling problem.  Anderson's high-performance glass has been
very satisfactory in another window we installed. 

4) If you are interested in a better quality look than Anderson, I have 
heard that Marvin is probably a better choice than Pella.  And Marvins come
in virtually any size.  All Marvin products we have looked at have 
looked to be very high quality.  However, I don't believe they come in 
a vinyl clad version.

5) Pella gives very little in discounts.  And contractors see no
different prices than we do.  Once the typical Anderson discounts are
factored in, they can be considerably cheaper than Pella. 

Alex

    re: -.1
    
    Marvins definitely do come clad.  They call in Marv-a-gard or something
    and I have them all throughout the 2nd story I added about 2 years
    ago.  I'd go with Marvins on the addition if they sold a ventilating
    picture window like Andersen.  Very happy with them.

RE: .14

Thanks.  The people we were talking to apparently got it all wrong.

But now my job is harder once again.  We eliminated Pella for our 
addition.  Now if Marvins come vinyl clad, we'll have to start over and 
decide between Marvin and Anderson.  Sigh.

Does anyone know the cost differential between Anderson and Marvin?  
Major differences in features?

Thanks,

Alex

    re: .15     Sorry I can't make a statement about cost differential between
                the Marvin & Anderson......
    
    But, just to fill out this file
    
       I'd like to point out that during the period between early Spring
    and late Fall a number of lumber yards offer what they call
    " Truck Load Sales"  where they buy huge quanities of a particular
    'brand name product'  and offer substantial savings. For example;
    most lumber yards in my area (Newburyport Mass.) discount both BROSCO
    and ANDERSON products at either 20% or 25% any day of the year.
    The deal with the truckload sale is you tack on an additional 10%
    savings bringing the total discount to " 35 % " ! tough to beat.
    >>>> The catch is: you usually order the item leaving a 5-10%
    deposit by a certain date...then you have to wait a month for delivery.
    I've never seen Brosco products offered this way, But last summer
    a lumber yard in my area (Johnson Lumber in Amesbury, Mass.) ran
    3 of these sales through the Summer for ANDERSONS. I purchased
    a 9' wide, 3 panel sliding glass door w/ 'high performance glass'
    which lists for ~1400. >>my price $909. very substantial savings.
    The only other comment I have is that the delivery was 2 weeks
    late but I ordered in the spring and planned the job for fall.
        
    Mark

Just to throw a monkey wrench into things, think carefully about getting 
the vinyl.  Personally I would NEVER get them simply because you're 
then stuck with that color.  When I did my addition I wanted red trim.  
I was told I could get vinyl windows in any color as long as they were 
white or brown!  I asked if I could paint them and was told no.

So, if you go with the vinyl, don't plan on changing you house color 
FOREVER!

-mark

    I spoke to a window salesman who said you could paint the vinyl,
    but you couldn't use regular latex or oil based house paint.
    Anybody tried it?  If it worked, what did you use?
    
    /Dave

	I need any and all feedback wrt fixing dual pane windows that leak.  
	That is the seal for the air tight space between the two panes is no 
	longer air tight!  Is this a DIY project?  Has anyone gone through this 
	DIY or with a service?  Any estimate on cost?

			thanks
			  	ed
    

I recently helped my non-DIY neighbor with this one and saved him about
$800.  His was a picture window (small doublehungs on either side of a large
fixed panel) with the center 5' x 5' pane leaking.  Although fixing the actual
glass unit that is leaking is not exactly a DIY project, replacing it is.  All
we did was take the measurements to the local lumber yard (or glass company if
you have one near) and ordered a new sealed glass unit.  Cost- $60.00.  When we
got it, we just popped out the old one, cleaned out the old putty that was used
to seal it and sealed the new one in.  Piecea cake. 

The carpenter he had quote the job for him said, "You gotta replace the whole
window and I can't get to ya for three months".  Whatta racket!!
We had the new glass in a week and it took three hours to do the job!   


						--Mike

    Once the seal between thermopane glass is broken, you can only
    replace it (the glass itself).  There's nothing you can do to seal
    up any leak.  The thing you can do is remove and install the glass
    yourself as mentioned in .1.  I've heard stories that it sometimes
    cheaper to replace the entire double-hung sliding portion rather
    than have it new glass installed.
    
    -al

    My picture window is so bad, some days you can't see out of it.
    I will be putting in a bow window in the spring.
    
    
    Royce

    We are also looking at adding some insulation to our windows.  (Our
    has has all single-pane double-hung sash with outside storm windows.)
    
    Our choices have come down to WindowQuilts and glass interior storm
    windows.  The particular brand of interior storm window that we are
    looking at is "Panelair".  Does anyone have experience with this
    product????


    The Panelair's seem to be the same idea as the plastic interior storms
    mentioned in .2 and .3, except that they are real glass with a rubber
    spring gasket around the edges.  Spring clips mounted on the window
    casing grip the window and hold it in place. 

    According to the saleman, while the WindowQuilts have more insulating
    ability when they're deployed, while the Panelair's are doing their job
    continuously; also, the glass interior storm windows are much better at
    stopping air infiltration.  The storm windows have "almost as much"
    (???) raw insulation ability as WindowQuilts, due to the trapped dead
    air between it and the house window. 

    Price: Panelair = ~$6/sq. foot.  WindowQuilt = $7.50 -- $10.00/sq.
    foot.
    
    Aside from the cheaper cost, I like the fact that glass storm windows
    are working for us ALL THE TIME, whereas the WindowQuilts are working
    only when they're pulled down.  But, this makes comparing the
    respective R-values difficult. 
    
    jdr

    
    
    	An alternative you may consider, New England Eagle Products
    	in Concord NH, 603-224-4688.  They make an excellent quality
    	window comparable to Pella less mony than Anderson.  They
    	make single pane, double pane, and low E glass ( coated to keep
    	the heat in in winter and cut down the sun in summer ) in
    	all styles, shapes and sizes, even custom fixed glass.  They
    	offer a written warentee.  
    
    	I plan on using these windows in a new house I am building,
    	there will be over 32 windows in the house.  I've compared
    	price and quality to Anderson and was impressed by their
    	product.
    
    	Tony

    I have Pella windows throughout my home... they've been in
    about 15 years.
    
    Their service is *astounding*!!!  I had to have a window replaced
    which was no longer made... they custom made one within a couple
    of days ... the service manager himself drove out to my house
    the same day I called to do the measurements... about a two-hour
    turnaround trip from their office...
    
    I just wish I knew where to buy some "butterfly" type handles for
    the windows... the crank handles do come off but if I leave them
    in, they poke at the curtains.
    
    grins,
    Marge
    

    I want to put something down on my bay window to seal it from dirt,
    water, etc.  Laminate won't do because of the temperature extremes
    - it may buckle.  One suggestion has been epoxy-based paint.  Is
    there anything else I should be considering?
    
    /C
    

     How about Zip-Guard semi-gloss polyurethane? It's very easy to
    apply, is very hard, impervious to water ect, and it looks great.
    
    					Kenny

    I second the vote!

    Last night a fellow from Artic Windows came over. He showed me a
    vinyl-clad aluminium replacement window that looked super. I need
    17 units, so you can imagine it's real expensive. However, I do
    not have storm windows now and the heat savings alone will be
    significant. 
    
    He also told me about an energy conservation program in Mass, whereby
    a local bank will process a home improvement loan interest-free.
    This would be the only way I could possibly afford these windows,
    as the total cost comes up to $11,600!
    
    I am 5'2", strong for my size, but I honestly can't see myself
    replacing windows myself, as many of you guys have. 
    
    If I'm getting a runaround, I do have 3 days to cancel, so PLEASE
    feel free to advise me on this one.
    
    Thanks much,
    
    Estelle James    
    
    

    That's about $700 per window, you can get double insulated Andersons
    for under $200, and hire somebody to put them in.
      If your existing windows are ok, you can probably put storms on
    all of them for about the price of 1 Artic (they just screw onto
    the window trim, very easy to do).
      And, even if these windows were to save you $500 per year in heating
    costs (I'm being very generous here) it would take you 23 years
    to pay back the initial cost.  Will you even be in the same house
    then?
       I would just put up storms and save the $11,000.
    
    Jim D.

I agree with .1
    
    You are paying an EXTREMELY high price for the windows, of which
    the salesman is probabally getting 15-20%...
    
    you are much better off to shop for windows yourself.  Most stores
    that sell windows have, or know of people who will install for you.
    
    By doing this you can probabally save 2-5k.  If you really like
    these windows, call Artic window direct and ask about a cash and
    carry price.  You may be able to save the salesman comission, as
    well as the installation fee, not to mention the kickback that the
    installer is paying Artic to refer the business!

     Over $680 dollars a window! Unless you have some really unusual
    or oversized windows, that sounds VERY expensive!
      To give an example, a friend of mine is currently building a new
    house with passive solar and a LOT of glass. His cost was $5K for
    the entire house! These were the best quality low-E windows and sliders
    ect. not including installation, but they're not hard for someone
    with DIY experience to install. Now you know WHY we do it ourselves.
      I guess I know why I see so many commercials for these glass replacment
    companies; these guys must really be cleaning up.
      Seriously, I think you should get some other prices. Maybe from
    another glass replacement company, and how about a local contractor
    or rennovator. There are plenty of good windows out there. You don't
    need Artic windows do you?
      You should also consider the payback period. $11,000 can buy a
    LOT of heat. Even at a $1000 a year savings your payback would
    take 11 years. What if you invested that same $11,000, what would
    the result be at the end of 11 years? If you're taking a loan for
    the windows, your payback will take even longer (unless you're
    getting 0%). Why not invest ~$75 a window for good storm windows,
    that almost anyone can install?
    
    					Kenny
    
    					Kenny

For that amount of money, you could put up storms, have window quilts installed 
inside, and still have enough left to buy a nice second-hand car or take a two 
week trip to Australia.  Or, if you're thinking about resale value, put an 
addition on the house.  Like the previous responder said, you could just burn 
more oil (or whatever) for 25 years before you came close to paying off that 
investment.  I think the payback even for an all-electric house would be a 
loooong time, and I don't think that the new windows will increase your resale 
value by $12,000. I personally can't imagine a window-replacement expenditure of
that magnitude *ever* making it to the top of my monetary priority list.

Paul

    Wow, I thought my estimate was bad!  You should seriously consider
    installing replacement sashes if you can get away with it (read:
    the frame isn't rotted).  Marvin replacement sashes (low-E) were
    quoted to me for around $150 (baked enamel outside) for a normal
    double-hung window.  No need to tear the old frame out.  If you
    could install storms, you could do this.  Anybody got any other
    positive/negatives concerning replacement sashes?
    
    Phil

	I didn't notice any replies underscoring the lesson: don't
	buy anything when a salesman visits.  I once enmetized a
	wallpapering salesman who wanted me to sign on the spot:
	sure enough, his outfit's price was 25% topheavy.

	When you arrange to have someone come to your house to show
	you products, make sure they understand you are not buying now,
	you plan to buy in a few months and you are gathering information.

	Cancel your agreement.  If you are diffident about telling them
	their price is too high, tell them you reviewed your situation
	and you discovered you can't afford the windows.  If they
	pressure you, everything shifts to your side, and you can tell
	them to disappear without a trace, in whatever words you like
	to use.  If they are reputable, the most they will do is try
	to get you to believe you can't get a better deal elsewhere,
	which of course you don't care about.

	Spring is coming, so you have time to nose around in windowland
	before you have to do something for next Winter.

    Cancel, even if you really want the windows. Odd are, someone from
    the 'main office' or 'factory' will call with a 'special offer'
    that is about 50% lower than the original quote. If it were me,
    I'd reject that offer too, but the message is that you can probably
    chew them down enough to buy yourself a small car.

    Thank you all very much for your input. I have filled out the "cold
    feet" form, got it notarized, and sent it registered mail at
    lunch-time. Amen to the last note stressing not to buy anything
    when the visiting salesman comes. 
    
    What smooth tactics they have! This guy came over at 6:00 and WOULDN'T
    LEAVE until 11:00. I felt overwhelmed, intimidated, and brain-washed.
    
    
    Again, thanks to all
    
    Estelle James
    

    
    	Replacement window people can be bad news.  My blood still boils
    when I think about the NuPro salesman.  Follow the first rule of
    phone sales, Don't call me I'll call you.  One of these turkeys
    called me last night and wouldn't give up even after I told him
    I just replaced all my windows.
    	If you are interested in vinyl replacement windows I had great
    success with Harbor Thermal Windows in Scituate MA.  It cost me
    $225 for a 30" x 60" window.  See my note 'window dilemma' for more
    info.
    						=Ralph=

	Hey, Estelle!  From your note .8, this sounds like a job for
	Cousin Guido!

	Are you telling us this pain in the you-know-what salesman
	hung around for 5 hours?!!  Did you think of hinting he
	scram?  You know, something like "Excuse me Mr. &^%$, do you
	know the number for the local police?"

	That's the nice thing about owning a home.  You meet people.

	Never mind.  A couple of weeks from now you'll think back
	and have a good laugh.  Maybe sooner, if they try to call
	you.

	Regards, Robert.

    re: .8
    
    Bravo!
    
    Now, seeing as how the first 7 respondents and I (this whole conference
    WAS my idea, you know) saved you from spending all that money, I think
    that a 10-10-10-10-10-10-10-30 split (after all, this whole conference
    was MY idea) of the savings would be fair. At least WE won't hang
    around your house for 5 hours trying to collect (at least I won't,
    since this whole conference was MY idea). 
    
    -joet (whose idea this whole conference was)

    A few notes back, someone mentioned Nu Pro.  I bet we had the same
    salesman!  After his 3-4 hour sales-pitch, lectures, and pressure
    (the triple-pane for the price of double-pane is good today only!),
    we signed on the dotted line.  Price for 15 windows- $10K, and this
    was 4 years ago!  Needless to say, after consulting with friends
    whose brains were still functioning, I cancelled the deal.  They
    did call back within days, or was it hours, anyway, they lowered
    the price by $2K.  I was too smart for 'em this time!
    
    I finally settled for a local, reputable outfit.  Got Harvey windows,
    not vinyl-clad aluminum, just all vinyl, triple-panes, some carpentry
    work to enlargen 2 of the tiny windows, 2 steel insulated doors,
    and 2 basement windows, all for $5300!  So, shop around.  The locals
    aren't paying Jamie Farr's tv ads!

    Actually, JOET, if I could, I would, but I really like the Cousin
    Guido idea better! No kidding, my daughter and I thought he wasn't
    going to leave until I either took the windows or the salesman!!!
    Talk about being between a rock and a hard place - 

    
    Estelle
    

    I wonder if this is the kind of thing that the Better Business Bureau
    would be interested in?  Every time I've ever called the BBB, they said
    that they had no info on the firm about which I was asking. It seems
    that if high pressure combined with inflated prices would be considered
    by them as a complaint, you might be helping the next guy.
    
    Any thoughts and/or experience with the BBB out there? 

    -joet    

    My wife tried this trick a while ago when one of the irritating
    window salesmen called.  Tell him you don't have windows - you live
    in an underground house.  It left him speechless.  They know how
    to counteract any of the 10^6 ways you can say "NO", but they don't
    learn how to handle a comeback like this in telemarketing school.
    
    You can use variations of this theme for just about any telemarketed
    product ("Magazines?  Well, we're both legally blind, so...")

    -db

    re: combating telephone salemen
    
    If I have time, sometimes a listen to the whole thing, and then
    say something like .-1; I figure I might as well waste some of
    their time.
    
    Once I listened to a cable TV guy for 20 minutes
    as he decribed just about every one of the 23000 channels available.
    At the end, I asked him how I would handle the problem that I didn't
    have a TV (at the time).
    
    You can also listen to the benefits to an "extended warrantee" for
    your whatever, and then mention that you just sold it yesterday.
    
    __r
    
    To be fair, I try to do the above only to real annoying salespeople.
    
    Sorry for the extended off-note discussion.

    re: .15  on combating telephone salespersons....
    
    How about starting a note in the CONSUMER notesfile?  I loved your
    2 examples, and .16's example, and I'm sure the discussion would
    get a lot of mileage.  I'd like to learn some of these tricks since
    I'm one of those people that have a hard time saying no, and would
    rather fight back and give 'em a knock-out punch, if I knew how
    to do it!  So, how about it?  Thanks.

    
    Here are a few "tricks" I heard about for combatting annoying/
    obnoxious/pressuring telephone solicitors (I haven't yet had
    occasion to try any of them out!):
    
    Homeowner (after determining it's a solicitor for something
    worthless):

          "Excuse me Mr. Smith, but I had to leave my 2 year old
          daughter unattended in the tub to answer the phone.  
          Please hang on just a minute."  (Puts phone down)

    Leave the phone off the hook for, say, 15-20 minutes.  The caller
    will most likely have hung up by that time.  Especially nice if 
    they're calling from out-of-state and AREN'T using an outgoing WATTS...
        
    Another one:
    
    Homeowner:   "Hello?"
    Solicitor:   "Hello, this is Mr. Whoever from the XYZ Company.
                  Have you ever considered..."
    
    Homeowner (With heavy accent; cutting Solicitor off in mid-sentence):
    
                 "I no speakee englesh."   ....CLICK...

    
    And, finally:
    
    Homeowner:   "Hello?"
    Solicitor:   "Hello Mrs. Rosenthal... My name is Edgar and I'm
                  calling from the Fubar Company...."
    Homeowner (cutting Solicitor off in mid-sentence):  "Hello?"
    Solicitor:   "Hello Mrs. Rosenthal... My name is Edgar and I'm
                  calling from the Fubar Company...."
    Homeowner (cutting Solicitor off in mid-sentence):  "Hello?"
                 Gee, Harry, nobody's there!"  ...CLICK...
    

    ///donna rosenthal
          

	How about:

		Homeowner: Hello
		Solicitor: "Hello, this is Mr. ??? of Useless Inc. and...
		Homeowner (cutting in):"Thank you but I'm not interested".

			      ...CLICK

If they call again just ask them for the company's address so that you can 
report them to the Atty. Gen. and BBB for telephone harassement.

I did that just last week.

Me:        Hello
Solicitor: Hello, I'm calling all the homeowners on Marblehead Road on behalf
	   of the NuPro company...
Me:	   And my house is two years old and I have no interest in replacement
	   windows, thank you.
Solicitor: Uhhhh, Oh.

	<Click>

I sort of enjoyed hearing that startled "Uhhhh, Oh"

Another thing I hate is the computer calls.  I have yet to listen to a single 
one.  As soon as I hear that pause and click, and then the canned "Hello..."
the phone is back on the hook.

Paul

    I had the oppisite problem last year. I had been looking for windows
    for a couple of months whem I got a call asking if I would be
    interested in this companies replacement window. When I told the guy
    on the other end that I would be very interested, he was so surprised
    he didn't know what to say. After about 30 seconds he said he would
    have his manager call me back. It was rather funny because the manager
    told me that if the phone solicter gets one yes in a hundred calls
    he is doing good. 
    
    The salesman that came was very good, no high pressure. I ended
    up buying the windows, but not until he came way down in his price.
    
    Mark 

    My favorite call was:
    
    	I have an answering machine at home that I have the normal message
    on it saying I'm not home and leave a message. One day I get home
    and I have this message on the machine from a woman from some widget
    company. Well the recording played for her and she started to leave
    her message and she rambled for a good 5 minutes asking questions
    of my machine and when she didn't here a response she would answer
    them for the machine. About 5 minutes later the woman started getting
    upset that the machine wasn't answering her and started to vent
    some of her frustrations telling my machine all about her life and
    problems (nothing to do with the widget she was selling).  She finally
    stopped 10 minutes later and the last thing she said before she
    hung up was "Thanks for being such a good listener".  I guess it's
    true that there are some serious basketcases out there.
    
    Mike B
    

    but aren't we getting a bit off the original topic here???
    

    I would like to install a window on the first floor level of a two
    story wall. Since this is an outside wall (load bearing) I am wondering
    what type of considerations I must take with regard to the existing
    windows on the second floor level. Should I install the new window
    under an existing one or NEVER under an existing one  or it doesn't
    matter. Any help??
    
    Thanks,
    
    Kevin

    If you frame it correctly (double studs, sufficient header, etc),
    you shouldn't have to worry about the placement affecting the structural
    stability of the house.
    
    I'd be more worried about what was in the wall that might get in
    the way (eg, do you have FHA; where are the ducts?)

    
    Another great way of getting rid of the telephone sales people
    is to tell them that you live in a condo and you don't own your
    window's, the condo association does. 
    
    
    -cjm

    
    
    Thanks for the reply. There is nothing in the wall to conflict.
    This gives me the artistic license I need (read: I can put it where
    my wife wants it).
    
    Kevin

    Guess what, guys? The salesman from Artic Windows CAME BACK TO MY
    HOUSE LAST NIGHT, and told my daughter he had a "present" for me
    in his trunk! Merciful heavens, I was out. Where I get a "Rent-A-Thug",
    or is this a job for the Better Business Bureau?

    I don't want the windows, I don't want his present, and I want them
    to LEAVE ME ALONE!
    
    Stel
        
    

    
    This might sound rash to some people, but I've had to resort to
    doing this --
    
    I lived in a <secure> apartment building with "No Solicitors" 
    signs plastered on every external door.  Salespeople still
    managed to get in and knock on individual doors.  I resorted to 
    hanging a "No Solicitors" sign on my apartment door, and when 
    people <still> had the audacity to knock, I'd tell them if they 
    didn't leave the building immediately, I was going to call the 
    police.  One guy ignored me, and went to the apartment next to 
    mine.  I called that neighbor after he'd let salesman in, and told 
    him to keep the guy there as long as he could, because I was calling 
    the police.
    
    He was given a less_than_gentle escort out of the building.  I
    think there were grounds for arresting him for trespassing, but
    just getting him out of the building was enough for us.
    
    Go to your local hardware store, buy one of those signs and post 
    it on your front door.  If he still rings the bell, I'm pretty 
    sure he's breaking some law (trespassing/harassment/or SOMEthing!).
    He's violating your rights to privacy.
    
    I would also call Artic Windows directly and tell them if any of
    their salespeople come to your house in the future, you're going
    to file a VERY LOUD complaint with the appropriate authorities
    (mentioning some of those appropriate authorities by name/office
    may help prove your seriousness...).
    
    This may sound very unfriendly to some folks, but I can't STAND
    being bothered by solicitors.  The SAME three people from a religious
    organization came by my house every Sunday a.m. around 9:30 for
    3 weeks straight.  They don't give up, either.  They ring the bell,
    wait a minute or so, ring again, wait another minute, ring again,
    wait..... you get the picture.  Then they leave literature inside
    my door.  Then I started locking the storm door on Saturday nights.
    I hear them trying to open the door, but they can't.  They've
    finally left us alone.  I've almost resorted to the "No Solictors"
    sign again...
    

    
    
    This topic was very informative. I had no idea that those replacement
    windows were so expensive!! Why would anyone by them???
    
    The only solicitors I allow in my house are girlscouts, boyscouts,
    paperboy, etc... Once while I was working in the back yard a salesman
    came to the door. My wife answered and told the salesman we wern't
    interested. Well, he wouldn't take no for an answer. When my wife
    tried to close the door he jammed it with his breifcase. Right at
    this time I cam around the corner and saw this. I silently came
    up behind the guy and grabbed him by the collar and threw him off
    my porch. I told him if he ever comes back and harrasses my wife
    "I'd kill him, then call the police". When I threw him he tore his
    pants and sport jacket, and scrapped his knee. Boy did I get
    satisfaction from doing that.
    
    If someone botheres you on the phone you should call the Public
    Service Commision. They handle those kind of complaints. Also if
    they feel it's warnted they will bring the company/person to court
    in your name.
    
    
    RE 22:  Did your answering maching buy the product this woman was
    selling????
    
    Mike

    I've never tried it (somehow not being imaginative enough at the
    time), but sometime when a salesman comes along and tries to sell
    me something I'd like to turn the tables and try to sell something
    to HIM - like, "Wow!  I'm glad you came by!  Just looking at you,
    I know you're a man of taste as distinction and you'd just LOVE
    a couple of my handmade knicknack shelves, I got the plans out of
    Popular Mechanics and they're great, a GREAT present for your wife,
    and I'll sell 'em to you, seeing it's you, for only $19.95 apiece!
    And if you buy FOUR of them I'll throw in a FREE silkscreened T-shirt
    my daughter made in art class!" ...etc.  Keep rambling on like that
    with enthusiasm and excitement, not giving him a chance to get a
    word in edgewise, until he flees in terror.
    

You should watch out for "No Solicitors" signs.  It draws them like a 
magnet.  Every sales manager in the world tells their people that the 
folks who hang those signs out do it because they have no sales 
resistance.  Even if you do have excellent resistance, MOST of the 
people who have them don't.  

I've found a brusque "not interested" and closing the door does the job. 
Door-to-door types depend on politeness to work against you, so you just 
have to give it up.  Physical antics, though satisfying, are illegal. 
Besides, the poor dope is just trying to make a living.

					>>>==>PStJTT

    A friend recommended this method years ago, and it's always worked.
    
    Phone Salesman:  Hi, Mr. xxxx.  I'm calling about xxxxxxx
    
    Me:  Sorry, my brother-in-law (is an insurance broker, contractor,
    	 sells encyclopedias, baby furniture, etc.)
    
    Works everytime!!!
    
    Lee
    

	Estelle,

	To recite my own thoughts, some of which will be obvious I'm
	sure ...

	In general, keep it all legal.  Don't waste time talking and
	arguing: take action.

	I wouldn't wait for another encounter.  Call the police and
	ask whether they've had complaints about this outfit or its
	salesmen.  Tell them you're having difficulties with one of
	their people.  Tell the police the salesman came to your house
	when your daughter was home, but you were away.  Tell the truth
	rigorously.  Ask the police how to get an injunction.

	I can't imagine it, but if Arctic takes legal action, see a
	lawyer; if they take physical action -- as they already have,
	pass the problem to the police.  If they visit your house
	again, call the police immediately, before you answer the door,
	or before getting into any conversation, at any rate.  Do not
	be "polite".

	To amuse yourself, call the BBB and ask whether they're interested
	in a complaint.  Don't expect much.

	Regards, Robert.
	

    Kudos to .31 for constructive yet agressive suggestions. 
    Kudos to several others for creative turnoffs.
    
    However, there is a theme in some of the replies that distresses me.
    That theme is that somehow the salesperson deserves courtesy.
    Granted, sales folks have jobs. But sales OBJECTS (a.k.a. us folks)
    have a right to privacy too. That privacy is INVADED every time a sales
    person knocks on the door or calls us on the phone. The first invasion
    PERHAPS merits tolerance and once the topic is clear I tolerate the
    intrusion long enough to say politely that I am not interested.
    
    Any courtesy after this point is above and beyond the call of duty!
    These people have been professionally trained specifically to ENTRAP
    naive customers (us). They spend weeks honing their skills . The variations
    in the techniques for getting clients talking seems endless. (just
    as the techniques for getting us to open unsolicited mail are
    impressively varied). This is blatant rudeness. And should be treated
    as such.
    
    My favorite interaction is
    
    Salesperson: (Tantalizing monologue ending in a question)
    Herb:	I am not interested
    Salesperson: "But ...  another leading question
    Herb:	F*#% You. 
    
    Gee that felt good!
    This obviously won't work for many of you, but LAND SAKES the worms
    certainly have done NOTHING to merit courtesy! What we need are
    as many techniques as possible to AGRESSIVELY discourage these people.
    I want them to be very unhappy in their jobs. Then perhaps they will leave
    us be.
    			herb

    I had someone from Citibank Shopper call one night, told him I wasn't
    interested. He called back, I told him if they call one more time
    I was going to complain to the BBB and cancel my Citibank Visa.
    I haven't heard from them since.
    
    Other tricks:
    
    They ask for Mr. Norris, I give them my 18 month old. You give him
    a phone and he just says "Hi" over and over and ..... again.
    
    Insurance companies call, I tell them I'm already insured for 5
    million and they usually hangup.
    
    Sears or whoever calls and asks if I want to buy the extended
    warrantee. I ask them, is the product made that cheaply that you
    need the warrantee, I better stop buying at Sears and get something
    with quality. They start defending the product and I tell them it
    sounds like I didn't really need the warrantee. They've always given
    up at this point.
    
    Ed

    	I've always found that grabbing my cordless phone on the way
    to the door and pushing the mute button, (mine also kills the dial
    tone sound), works very well.  As you open the door with the phone
    to your ear say something like "Hang on there's a stranger at the
    door".  Then as they start in on their sales pitch just say that
    you're not interested and can't talk now anyway.  Slam the door
    and they're history.
    
    	If they're persistent tell you're nonexistent phone caller to
    call the cops because you're being harassed.  That's usually a last
    resort but my wife's done it in the past and that one's never failed.
    
    						Lee
    
    BTW - When I was a teenager still living with my parents my Dad
    answered the door while in the process of cleaning a 357 revolver
    after a day of target shooting.  The salesman said something like
    "Sorry - WRONG house!", and RAN down the driveway.

Stel,


    If you live in Mass, contact the attorney general's office.  They
    recently successfully prosecuted several Willmington car dealers for
    identical sales tactics.  Judgment included mandatory refunds of part
    or all of the purchase price, I think.  Anybody remember the details?
    Just mentioning this might slow these guys up.  Hmmm Probably not
    considering salesmen.  In any event high pressure sales tactics are
    illegal in Mass.  Up here in Live Free of Die country I would guess
    calling the AGs offices wouldn't fly very well, but if you pay the
    taxes, you might as well use the services. 

Byron
    

BTW, I have heard that in MA, there is a state law that if someone comes to
*your home* and sells you a product, that you have X days to change your mind,
and return the product.

If you get stuck with 25 Automatic Ginzu Potatoe Sharpeners, take advantage
of this...

Jim. 

    re .-1:
    
    I believe you have three working days to walk away from *any* business
    deal sealed in Massachusetts, without penalty.

    Throwing a salesperson off his pitch is the most effective way of
    getting rid of him.
      
    Insurance... "when I die what do I care about those I leave behind??"
                                  
    Window... "I like fresh air, I always leave a window open all winter"
                                  
    Food.. "I shop around and feed my family of eight for $40 a week,
    can you help me do better than that"
                                  
    Financial...." I spend my money as fast as I can so my wife doesn't
    have the chance to do it"                                       
                                                     
    Most salespeople aren't experienced enough to recover from this
    tactic, and those that are won't press the issue.
    
    NH also gives you some number of days to cancel.  I think it's three.  

    Dave Maynard has a good talk show on WBZ in the mornings.  I remember
    him touting artic all winter.  Maybe you should give him a call
    and tell him just what it is he's selling.  Maybe he's real good
    at espousing sincerity or I'm still gullible but he sounds like
    he'd be interested in hearing from someone like you.
    
    If you do give him a call, tell us what  transpired.  Hope I happen
    to be listening that morning.

    Well, folks, thanks to you all I was prepared when Arctic Windows
    called last night. Are you ready for the latest? After hanging up
    on the woman TWICE, I talked to her when she managed to get out
    the information that she wanted to return my check. "Knock yourself
    out", (right?) I said to her.  "Stick it in an envelope (do you have 
    my address?". Well, she said she had to send the same representative
    over because I had to sign a form and he had to witness it!!!!
    
    I said I would get any form that she sent notarized - that still
    wasn't good enough. I told her that the cancellation form I sent
    back stipulated that Arctic Windows had to send me back my money
    20 business days after receipt of the cancellation form, and THAT
    had been notarized. Still no soap...she still wanted to send the
    window wizard over...so, I told her that IF SHE DID, I was going
    to contact the Townsend Police to have a restraining order made
    up.
    
    She said, "Goodnight, and thank you for taking it out on me."
    
    Is there any  truth at all to her allegations that I have to sign
    a release form so that they can send back the money? That I have
    to sign it in the presence of one of their representatives? It sounds
    like an extremely fishy requirement to me, but then again, I am
    getting REAL paranoid about these people.
    
    Stel
    
    
    
    

    Sounds like it is time to call your lawyer!!!!!!

    
    	Hang in there.  Agree to meet the person but only at another
    location.  A lawyers office would be a good idea, but if you want
    to save a few bucks, meet him in the lobby of your local police
    department.  That should keep him in line.  
    	Have you contacted the Atterney Generals office?

    It sounds like they want to get the salesperson back in for a last
    ditch sales effort. 

    re <-  
    
    You got it...and I don't want them ANYWHERE NEAR ME. Have you noticed
    the thin edge of hysteria here? I am losing all perspective on this
    situation.
    
    According to my copy of the Notice of the Right to Recind, it says
    
    "If you cancel the transaction, the (mortgage/lien/security interest)
    is also cancelled. Within 20 calendar days after we receive your
    notice, we must take the steps necessary to reflect the fact that
    the (mortgage/lien/security interest)(on/in) your home has been
    cancelled, and we must return to you any money or property you have
    given to us or to anyone else in connection with this transaction."
    
    I think that spells it out pretty well; maybe I'm losing it on this
    one, but I honestly don't want to have to contact a lawyer, the
    Attorney General, Dave Maynard, or Guido. 
    
    Stel
    

    Meeting in the lobby of the police station sounds like a great idea!
    Why don't you propose it and see their reaction? It might possibly lead
    Arctic to incorrectly conclude you are going to try some legal action.
    In that case, how about just having one or two good sized friends over
    during the final transaction?

It all sounds very dramatic, but it's probably best to proceed in a 
manner where you get your money and they don't feel challenged.  Tell 
them to mail the check.  If they don't want to, then you can sound tough 
and tell them you'll file in small claims court and have the court 
collect the check for you.  
				>>>==>PStJTT

> but it's probably best to proceed in a 
> manner where you get your money and they don't feel challenged.

Exactly!  You both want to come out winners!

Allen

    
    
    It sounds like you said, Stel, they are trying to make a last ditch
    stand with their sales guy.
    
    Have them send you the forms and the check by registered mail, return 
    receipt requested. Then you have your part of it notarized and send
    the papers back to them the same way. This will give them the warm
    and fuzzy feeling that you won't get the check cash it ans then
    say you didn't get it. If they still balk at that remind them that
    a postal service receipt is admissible in court as a legal document
    (a lot of copyrights and patents are protected by the owner mailing
    them to himself this way)
    
    Good Luck,
    Steve

    Just to set the record straight -- It used to be enought to
    a) Put a copyright notice on something
    AND
    b) mail it to yourself to establish the date
    
    I believe you had to do both.
    
    Now, the only way to get a copyright is to file for it with the
    Government.  You must include a fair copy of the work and $10.00
    with the application.  
    
    		George

    They'll have their cancelled check as proof they paid you (whenever
    they get around to doing it!!!); I don't see why they would need
    anything more than that.
    

    My check was returned to me in today's mail, marked "VOID" all over
    it, and looking like somebody stepped on it.
    
    Amen
    
    Stel
    

    Stel,
    
    After all that mess you might want to check with the registry of
    deeds, to make sure there is no lein on your home.  There shouldn't
    be any lein from this incident, but considering what has happened
    so far I'd make sure they didn't screw that up too.
    
    Dave

    Can anybody give me any advice on why thermopane glass is fogging
    up?  Any cures??  Thanks.

    It needs to be replaced because the seal between the panes is leaking.

	I own a ranch style house, the slab type that were put up all
over the Framingham/Natick area in the 50's. These house were made with
steel casement windows and if you are familar with these, then you know
what a pain they are, with rusting and condensation. If you not familar
with them, they are "frameless", in that except for the sill and gypsum
board and plaster, they basically screw into the framing. 
	What I would like to do is replace them with wood casement
windows, such as Andersens. A neighbor had it done and while it came out
fine, the amount of work involved has left me hesitant to start this
undertaking. They literally cut out these windows, plaster, sills and all
right back to the framing (rough opening). They then installed Andersen
windows and had to patch up wall, restore siding, etc. It is very nice,
but all that work.
   	My question is, Isn't there an easier way of doing this? Couldn't
you just remove the steel casement windows, leaving the sill and 
surrounding area intack. Then install a replacement unit in the 
opening. I know that I would lose a small amount of glass area and that
these unit might have to be made to order, but it sure seems like alot
less work. I'm not interested in vinyl or aluminum. I would be interested
in hearing from anyone who may have information.
                                          
		

    I was wondering if some of you noters could help me out I\
    bought my first house last fall. I want to replace all the windows
    I was wondering if you could explain the difference between a case
    ment window and replacement window.The ones I have mold around them
    and flys in them.
    
    				steve       

    A replacement window is usually manufactured with the ability to
    fit a range of openings.  It can be of any type, of which casement
    is one, along with double-hung, awning, picture, etc.  A casement
    window is hinged on the side and opens like a door, usually by turning
    a crank.  A double-hung is the traditional window which has two
    parts (called sashes) which slide up and down in tracks.  An awning
    window is like a casement put in sideways: it is hinged on the top
    and tilts out by turning a crank.
    
    Hope this helps.  You might want to stop somewhere and pick up an
    Andersen or Marvin (any manufacturer, really) window pamphlet so
    you can see just what each style looks like and how it works.
    
    Pete

The labor involved to try and save a little plastering and painting (which I
don't think can be avoided anyway) will cost far more in the long run in terms
of custom windows and the labor involved in fitting them.

btw - have you looked at what the standard sizes are?  there may not even be
any that would fit.  go to any lumber yard and ask to look at their catalogs.

-mark

    	There is another consideration in replacing your windows, how
    much of a job do you want to get into?  There are replacement windows
    that are custom made to your present window opening so that no
    plastering, painting, or siding has to be done.  They are easy to
    install.
    	Windows like Andersons, or Pella are great windows but require
    that you take out your present window to replace.  You will have
    to do work on the walls and the odds of finding the exact size of
    your present window are nill.  Type DIR/TITLE=window to look at
    other notes about windows in this conference.

    Speaking of Pella, it looks like the Pella warehouse in Littleton
    has closed down.   Anybody know why?
    

If the work seems intimidating, it would be better to hire someone to do 
it for you.  Anything you think you can't do, you can't do.  There are 
people around who have put in bizillions of windows that would probably 
do your house in a few full-time days.  Can't beat that.  While you're 
at the lumber yard, look for the ever-present bulletin board covered 
with contractor's business cards.  Get a few estimates, take the best 
one and let them do the rest.
					>>>==>PStJTT

    Re: .3
    I stopped by a couple of weeks ago - yes, they've moved to Ballardville
    Road (I think) in Wilmington.  There is (or at least was) a sign
    on the door giving directions to the new place.

    Has anyone heard of certine(sp)replacement windows??
    				steve
    

It's odd that Pella is moving... they just added a 50% size addition there
last year.

What kinds of windows casement, double hung, awning windows are best for
what types of situations?  I'd favor the awning ones so the you can essentially
get a breeze through the full window in any direction.  With a double hung
window only let's you use half the window, and a casement window limits the
direction.

Jim.

    The best type of window is the one that goes with the style of your
    house.  You can really muck up the look of a house by being careless
    or using what's on sale styles.  Look at Old House Journal's remuddling
    of the month for examples.

    re: .5
    
    I think you mean Certain-Teed (sp?).  We had 4 of them put in our
    house and are very happy with them tho' they look 'plasticy' close
    up (i.e., they're all plastic, no wood, with fake mullions between
    the double-panes).  They provide a good seal and are easy to keep
    clean, but you can't paint them.
    
    Pete

    Your request for info id a little old, but if you're still considering
    BROSCO, I've has excellent results with their sashes. I've replaced
    six sets within the last year an a half and the insulating quality
    (along with the storms) is most satisfactory. I do suggest replacement
    with vinyl sash channels (spring loaded not necessary).
    
    If you do your painting, scrapping, and cleaning before you pop
    them in, would find your job much easier (especially during the
    winter, or on second story windows).
    
    I've used Somerville Lumber as the supplier, fast delivery and
    ~$50 price range is correct ...
    
    
    

    Yeah.  I'm just getting around to it now.  The dealer talked me
    in to getting the vinyl balances; they're alot nicer.  The only
    problem I've had was getting the correct size sash. I've reordered
    twice so far.  This time I think I've got it.
    
    
    ...bill

    .1 seems to be assuming that the fogging is between the panes.

    If that's not the case it may just be that the humidity is high enough
    to cause condensation even with the reduced heat loss through the
    thermopane. 

Anyone ever heard of Window Wizards in Bristol, Pa?  800-922-8060

I caught a commercial for these folks on TV the other day and they advertised
Andersen Windows at up to 50% off.  I've tried calling a couple of times and
always get a recording to leave my name for further info.  I did...

Anyhow, it sounds kind of shaky.  If it is, then we can all keep away and if
these folks are on the level, it could be a good source for everyone.

-mark

    
    Haven't heard of Window Wizards but if you're around Boston look
    up J & C Adams Co. Inc. I found them very reasonable, they're in
    Cambridge.
    
    wayne
     

    Mark, I have a circular from them (as a result of leaving my name
    and address on their tape machine).  They don't mention prices but
    they'll probably beat anyone around here because of volume.
    
    I mentioned them to my builder and he said to remember that warranty
    claims must be satisfied by the dealer (or the builder, if the windows
    are purchased through the builder), and that I might have a hard
    time getting satisfaction from a cut-rate place in another state.
    
    I'm going to pay about $20 per window to be able to call my builder
    if I have a problem.  Seems like a reasonable price for the peace
    of mind.
    
    Pete

    I used J & C Adams for my windows and doors (Andersons).
    They deliver free "Cape Cod to Cape Ann" and (late breaking
    news) "Worcester to Nashua".  The quality was good.  They happily 
    scheduled a second delivery for a set of "back ordered"
    extension jams.  They claim to give the same prices to 
    both trade and retail customers.  I compared their prices
    to Window Wizard prices and they were consistently lower.
    
    I recommend J & C Adams to anyone in the Metro-Boston,
    Metro-West and So. N.H. area.

    

    They will also give you quotes over the phone.  It helps
    if you have one of the Brosco/Anderson "Project Books" 
    to give them an actual model #.  Last time I was there 
    they gave me one of these gratis.
    
 

    
    
    i'll third j&c adams for price. when i replaced windows
    they were always 25% lower than everyone i checked with.
    service was terible. i also had 2 broken window frames 
    which they were reluctant to replace. the sales people
    were great until they had my $3k in their hand. but i guess
    because of the prices they offer they can afford to be
    that way. i'd still go back if i were spending anything
    over 1,000 dollars.
    

    I HAVE TALKED TO WINDOW WIZARDS AND THEIR PRICES ARE 50% OFF OF
    LIST. I GOT ESTIMATES FROM THREE DIFFERENT LUMBER YARDS TO COMPARE
    AND WINDOW WIZARDS WERE HIGHER EVERY TIME!!!!!!

    I know there are many many comments on windows in this conference.
    I was able to find only one comment on RIVCO windows and it was
    not a positive comment. It talked about the counter weight pully
    system breaking. I am building an addition with six double hung
    windows. I want wood, not clad in any way. Not being a window expert
    and not wanting to spend lots of money, i have been considering
    going with the RIVCO units. Any comments on their quality for windows
    in that price range? What are my alternatives other than Anderson
    or Pella?
    
    Thanks,
    Jack

don't know about rivco...
    
    
    for an alternative, if you're near methuen or derry try Merrimack
    Valley Wood Products
    
    address in methuen is: 476 Lowell St.
    telephone:            617-686-3804
    
    the place in Derry, N.H. is called Standard Sash & Door...  i've
    always used the Derry location, but don't have the phone # handy.
    
    quality of the windows is good, and the prices are MUCH more reasonable
    than anderson....
    
    \ske

    I second Merrimack Valley Wood Products as a less expensive 
    alternative.  My new home has them, as well as others being 
    built in my sub-division by different builders.  

    My house has Merrimack Valley Wood Products windows and doors. 
    The double hung is only average, in my opinion.   They are the tilt-out
    kind, but are hard to pull out.   I put in a casement, and it is
    a nice window.   

 
 >   The double hung is only average, in my opinion.   They are the tilt-out
 >   kind, but are hard to pull out.   I put in a casement, and it is
 >   a nice window.   
  
    
   i have both the casement and the double hung variety... i agreee
    that the casement is a good window.... the tilt-out double hung
    i have is easy to pull out for cleaning...
    
    
    

    I suggest reconsidering the Anderson. I have all Anderson, both
    casement and double hung, throughout my house and love them. How
    much do you really save by purchasing on lesser known window. If
    you add it up I'll bet it's not that much. Shop around for Andersons,
    you'd be suprised at the difference in price based on location.
    In my first house I decided against Anderson because I felt the
    price was high. I ended up going with CrestLine windows and had
    regretted it up to the day I sold the place. Double hung are much
    more difficult to design/manufacture because of the many tight joints
    which have to be easily opened/slid but at the same time be air
    tight when closed. Casement windows are another story, almost anyone
    can make a good casement, after all it's nothing but a glass core
    door. 
     I'd recommend the better, established window makers (anderson,
    pella, marvin, etc.,) and shop around for the best price. If your
    in southern NH., I'd recommend P.F.O'connor on rt 101A. If your
    willing to wait a few weeks for delivery, they'll sell them to you
    at a reduced trailerload price.
    
    OK all you lesser brand window fans - open fire, but remember this
    you don't get to be the largest supplier and brand name window
    manufacturer by putting out a bad product. I'd go Anderson now and
    keep my blood pressure down later!
    

    re .5   I agree with you 100% about going with the better brand,
    provided you can afford it.  True you can shop around and get a
    decent price and spend some more for established quality.  However,
    I trust that the person who wrote the original note has already
    done this, ruled-out the Anderson's or whatever, and is seeking
    a cheaper alternative.
    
    I also suggested the Merrimack's, and I agree with one of the replies,
    they're only average.  Lots of builders use them, mainly because
    of cost, I'm sure.  But they have to be a 'pretty good' window....
    ...and that's about how I'd rate them, at best.  Personally, I would've
    rather had vinyl windows in my new home instead of the Merrimack's or any
    cheap alternative wood window, especially since my windows are painted
    white anyway.  For the money, the vinyls are much better in quality
    than the cheaper woods.  But, if you must have wood.............. 

    Lets reopen this...
    
    This is perfect.  I have had a plumbing problem that left a wet
    warped sub floor for my tiles... guess what happened...
    
    Anyway that was a while ago and this topic is ants.  I have black
    large ants in the kitchen, 4 or 5 a day.  We kill them, no problem.
    I sprayed diazanon around the foundation, the number of them lessened
    but did not get the whole problem.
    
    Now I am noticing "saw"dust by the tile floor that I have not fixed
    the subfloor of, down the hall from the kitchen.
    
    Someone said that black ants are carpenter ants, I thought carpenter
    ants had wings?  These guys do not.  Does the sawdust mean that
    I have carpenter ants?
    
    Where do you get Boric Acid?  What do you do with it?  drill a hole
    in the wall near the sawdust and pour it in?  Wash the floor with
    it?  What about the Diazanon?  I am leary of using it inside, I
    have a four yr old and a 3 month old, a dog and two cats, none of
    (not to mention a wife) which I care to lose.
    
    How about professionals, in the Milford NH area?  JP Chemicals over
    the phone is saying $150 to $400 depending...

re Note 69.20 by TAMARA::STOLLER:

>     Someone said that black ants are carpenter ants, I thought carpenter
>     ants had wings?  These guys do not.  Does the sawdust mean that
>     I have carpenter ants?
  
They are carpenter ants.  Most of them, most of the time, DO NOT have wings.
The sawdust means that they are eating your house.

  
> What about the Diazanon?  I am leary of using it inside, 

Diazanon (sp?) is not for indoors use.  Ortho, and others, sell insecticides
based on Dursban (tm of somebody) which is acceptable for interior use.  But I
still wouldn't use it near where the kids could reach.


>     How about professionals, in the Milford NH area?  JP Chemicals over
>     the phone is saying $150 to $400 depending...

I myself would still like to hear a recommendation of a good exterminator in
the greater Groton, MA area.

Bob

Good exterminator somewhat near Groton:  Central Mass Exterminators in 
Shrewsbury (jim Jrioux) - his father is Hallmark Home Inspection, 
mentioned elsewhere in this file.  Braman Chemical is also good.

If you dont have small kids or animals, and want an immediate solution 
- you might get some ortho diazon crystals and fill up all the holes 
you can find - I've found this VERY effective outdoors, IF you fill 
all their key holes

	Ahh, black flies and carpenter ants...ain't NH great :-)
	
	I just had Central New England in for the same problem.  They 
charged $175, found the nest (mine was in the attic) and also treated the entire
outside of the house.  They also guarantee that you'll have no further problem 
with that particular pest through the rest of '87.  I thought they were 
efficient and knew exactly what they were doing.  Their toll free # for Mass.
is 1-800-922-2060.  Outside of Mass. it's 1-800-553-5528

I believe that their price for carpenter ant treatment is now $180 and it's a
flat rate.

George

    Hey -- he said he wanted WOOD.  most Andersens are vinyl clad
    (they do have wood casements and awnings).

    One of my neighbors has gotten carpenter ant quotes from three different
    exterminators.  One suggested that only a single visit was necessary
    to take care of the problem (and of course, he would return and
    take care of anything that showed up within the year).  The second
    claimed that he had to come in once a month for a year to maintain
    the effectiveness of the poison.  The third offered to come back
    every three months for a year to take care of the problem.

    My neighbor has developed a very low trust of exterminators after
    hearing three radically different stories.  Can anyone shed some
    light on the appropriate procedure for the extermination of carpenter
    ants?
    
    bd

    Our house has a major ant problem but I am leary of bringing in
    an exterminator because of the fact that we have 2 cats and a dog.
    Would the exterminator be able to do his thing without my animals
    being hurt?
    
    Thanks in advance for any info,
    
    Linda
    

    The difference in guarantees and frequency of treatment may well
    be related to differences in the chemical used.

    We just had our house treated (this morning) for carpenter ants - I
    have been keeping them at bay for some years, but decided it was
    time for a professional to take a shot. He uses diazinon in spray
    form (I've been using the granules to band the foundation and powder
    form along the edges of the "attic" formed by the dead space between
    our original roof and the roof from an addition). He indicated we
    should keep our pets (3 cats) and kids (don't have any - that part's
    easy) out of the house for three hours after interior treatment. If
    you must keep your cats indoors all the time, penning them in a room
    which doesn't need treatment (and which can be ventilated) on the
    day of treatment might work. Once the stuff dries and the air
    clears, I would think pets would be safe.
    
    I have reason to believe a small nest exists in one wall (which
    suffered from some water infiltration from an improperly sealed
    cricket joining the original and addition rooflines), but don't have
    enough data to localize the nest to a particular region of the wall
    (e.g. no shavings in evidence since I treated it last year, and no
    munching sounds when I put my ear to the wall - yes, you can hear
    them munching if there are enough of 'em). When I asked the
    exterminator about spraying inside the wall he indicated that we
    could do more damage to the wall in ten minutes (without finding the
    nest) than the ants would do in ten years (I guess "properly
    controlled" might be implied here), especially since it's an
    insulated wall, which would restrict the spread of the chemicals.
    Instead, he sprayed into the existing gaps around the suspect area.
    Makes sense to me, but having read in this conference of people who
    have had nests in a wall cavity destroyed I'm curious how the issue
    of insulation was dealt with. 

    In years past we had more problems with "little wanderers" (ants
    just wandering through the house with an appraiser) than now; I
    found that the beams of our 20-year-old post and beam house had
    shrunk to a sufficient degree to create gaps between the beams and
    the roof decking. Caulking every crack that looks larger than an ant
    helps quite a bit. 

    Interesting thought for new construction: how does one build
    a house to make it more ant-proof? Some thoughts come to mind:
    
    	- Steep roof (less chance of leakage and wet wood)
    	- Don't bring siding down to ground level
	- Caulk
    	- Caulk
    	- Caulk
    	- ? Use particle board rather than plywood ? (Do they burrow
    	  in particle board?)
    	- All-steel I-beam construction
       	- Location north of the Arctic Circle

    Any serious ideas?

re:-1

The only Andersens I've ever bought were wood.  I thought they ALL came in wood
and the vinyl was an option.

-mark

    I had my house treated for carpenter ants ~2 yrs ago.  
    
    I could hear the little buggers in the wall, it sounded like a dripping
    faucet, at least that's what came to mind since they were in the
    bahtroom wall.
    
    I had Central New England Chemical out of Worcester, Mass do the
    job. They came out once, and gauranteed it for a year. 
    
    Basically what the guy did was ask why I thought I had ants, I told
    him and showed him the sawdust on the outside foundation. He agreed
    that I had them, and checked around the rest of the foundation.
    
    He decided that the area I pointed out to him was where they were
    entering the house. It was a door frame. He took what looked like
    a 3/8 inch drill bit, and drilled thru the frame. He then placed
    an electric sprayer right upto the hole and began spraying a dust
    into the hole, for about 1-2 mins.
    
    When he backed off that hole, the ants were falling over themselves
    trying to get out.  It was disgusting!!  The guy just kept watching,
    and then pointed to one ant and said, "There's the queen. You're
    all set now"  He took a small cork, stuffed it into the hole and
    cut it off so it was flush with the door frame, packed up, and left.
    
    I never had a problem after that.  I didn't have to worry about
    spraying inside or anything. I was very pleased.
    
    BTW, those ants ate through a 2X4 in the bathroom wall, over the
    winter.  
    
    
    Ray
    

	I got information from the Vermont Extention Service about these
	little critters.  Basically it said that they find a spot of wet
	wood and make themselves at home there.  As long as there is wet
	wood they will burrow into it.  If the wood is not wet, they DON'T
	eat it.  According to the extention service the most beneficial
	thing you could do is to find the wet wood, determine the cause
	of the wetness and eliminate it.  I guess you should kill off the
	ants at the same time so they don't find another home in your house.

	My problem has been that I haven't been able to find the wet wood.
	I just keep finding them crawling on my kitchen counters.

	Under dishwashers, clothers washers, etc. are good places to check
	for leakage problems that will attract them.

	-gary

re Note 69.28 by FROST::SIMON:

> 	My problem has been that I haven't been able to find the wet wood.
> 	I just keep finding them crawling on my kitchen counters.

The nest I found last year was under the first floor, between the subfloor and
the vapor barrier facing of the fiberglass insulation in the basement.  As far
as I could tell the wood was not moist.  There was no evidence of burrowing
(except one or two holes in the fiberglass backing paper).  But I just kept
finding them crawling on my kitchen counters and floor.

The "chewing" noise was readily audible in the basement when all was quiet and
I stood under the joists surrounding the nest.

The situation still scares me, because the nest could just as easily have been
in some truly inaccessible and invisible (and possibly inaudible) location in
the wall or attic.

Bob

re -.1:

	I thought that they may have been down in the basement, but there
	is no vapor barrier in the basement as in your case.  The subfloor
	(which is the same as the basement ceiling) looks perfectly dry.
	I even looked all around the outside foundation and can't find any
	sign of moisture.

	The other thing is that I have not heard any "chewing noise" like
	most people have mentioned.  I know they are carpenter ants because
	I gave one to a friend who is currently taking a college biology
	class and needed specimens for his insect collection.  He identified
	it for me.  They appear to be the sweet eating variety because the
	only thing they seem to get into is fruit and sticky marks left from
	fruit juice on the counters.  My wife spilled some juice last night
	and didn't get it all cleaned up as some went under a drain board.
	When I got up this morning there were about 12-20 of them little
	buggers hanging out.  grrrrrrr.

    
    
    This is an old recipe from the Yankee (Rioux's Question and Answer
    section).
    
    Mix Borax and confectionery sugar with water until a paste and put
    drops around the area where the critters are found.  The article
    says that they will bring this back to the colony.   I tried this
    mixture along with Boric Acid and that seems to do the same thing.
    Don't mix too much since this paste will harden after 1 day, so
    the next day you will have to mix more and clean up the old dried up
    spots.
    
    

re : < Note 69.31 by MSEE::SYLVAIN >
    
	hmmm..sounds interesting.  Also sounds like it's worth a try.
	Even if it doesn't kill the colony it may afford me with the
	opportunity to follow a few of them back to their colony maybe?

	I think I'll give it a try.

	thanks,
	-gary

  Has anyone out there had any experence with Peachtree casement windows.
  I am thinking of replacing a few windows and Peachtree are the only
  ones I have found that come close in size to what exist today.  I was
  wondering how they compair to Anderson and Marvin in cost and
  durability?   Size in this case is very important, any comments
  would be of help.
       
       
    Thanks,
       
    Kev   

    
    
      Peachtree casement windows are a excellent brand of window. I'd
    have to say they advertise less than Anderson and Marvin but that
    keeps there cost down to. My brothers are both builders and that's
    all they use. I wouldn't hesitate on minute to put peachtree windows
    in my house. Ask any builder, I think they'll give you the same
    opinion.
    
    
    
    brian @pk

    I have come across a window condensation problem that perhaps someone
    out there would have a good guess as to what may be causing the
    problem. I have a room with a 12" ceiling and at the north side,
    the wall is mostly glass. Basically this wall has six double hung
    windows, three smaller ones over three larger ones. The problem
    is the top-right window keeps getting condensation on its individual
    panes of glass. The house is about 50 years old and the windos are
    original. They are single pane,6 over 6 double hung, with no storm.
    The condensation forms on the inside and was there yesterday, a
    70+ degree day, which was sunny and fairly low humidity. Can't seem
    to figure it out. The bathroom is on an adjacent wall, and vents
    to the attic. The house has steam heat that hasn't ran much lately,
    and the kitchen is on the other side of the house.
    
     Has anyone ever experienced anything like this in there house?
    
     Any guesses on what may cause this and any possible solutions?
    
     
    Below is an attempted diagram!
         ---------  --------- --------- 
         |  |  |  | |  |  |  ||**|**|**|   <-- This Window
         |  |  |  | |  |  |  ||**|**|**|       Has The Condensation
         ---------  --------- ---------
         |  |  |  | |  |  |  ||**|**|**|
         |  |  |  | |  |  |  ||**|**|**|
         ---------  --------- ---------
    ------------  ------------  ------------
    |   |   |   |  |   |   |   ||   |   |   |
    |   |   |   |  |   |   |   ||   |   |   |
    ____________  ____________  ____________
    |   |   |   |  |   |   |   ||   |   |   |
    |   |   |   |  |   |   |  ||   |   |   |
    ____________  ____________  ____________
    
    
    Please excuse the diagram, I have no edit capabilities!
    
    Thanks in advance.
    

      I still hav'nt seen any comments pro/con on Certain Teed windows.
    I got an estimate last week to replace every window in my house
    (21) with CertainTeed windows for $4,800.00. Seemed like a good
    deal to me. I am going with this contractor regardless. To side
    my house and garage complete with shutters, 21 windows, remove and
    trash three layers & replace with Bird 30 year architectural shingles,
    and jack & level front porch, he is charging me $14,000.00. It seemed
    like an excellent deal considering the last estimate I got was 21K!
    Any comments?
                          /Brian

    	Is he using replacement windows or just replacement sashes?
    Replacement windows run $250-300/ea  installed while replacing just
    the sashes costs about $150/ea.  What type of siding is it, vynal
    or cedar?
    			  		=Ralph=	

    Hard to pass up a war story run like this one...
    
    We had ants two summers ago -- they started in some wet wood caused
    by a leaky kitchen drain and then just worked their way up an exterior
    wall.  DIY chemicals and sprays never did the job -- the ants came
    back a few days later.
    
    The exterminator came out, pried two clapboards off of the exterior
    wall and sprayed the dickens into the opening.  THOUSANDS of ants
    came screaming out of that space.  The exterminator watched with
    devilish eyes and a sinful smile.  Then the queen ant came out and
    he stomped the heck out of her (with a look of glee in his eye,
    I might add).  He closed up the opening, sprayed around the outside
    foundation and left several long-term matchbox-sized deterrent
    spaced along the inside top of the sill plate.
    
    He told us to expect a few ants for the next several days.  If any
    returned after 10 days and within 90 days, he said he would return
    at no additional cost.  Total charge: $99 (flat rate, Cleveland
    dollars).
    
    Randy
    

      The siding is Bethlehem Steele vinyl, and the windows are the
    double hung, double pain, with the grill in between in the frames
    that go into the existing openings.
                                             /brian

    Have you checked the attic above the window?  I thought exhausting
    the shower into the attic was a no-no.  Is that moisture condensing
    on your rafters and roof and dripping down near the window?  Is
    there a roof leak?  Is the wood around the window wet?
    
    Maybe the window is not sealed very well.  It is 50 years old.

    Central New England came out Saturday for our carpenter ants.  $165
    for the treatment.   He used a stethoscope, but couldn't locate
    the nest (I believe it to be in the space between the first and
    second floors since I disturbed a nest there last year.)  He used
    some kind of powder blown into wherever he could find a space.
    Guaranteed 'til 31-Dec.   The beasties have plenty of sawdust and
    other shavings, and seem to be going to the bathroom for water.
    Last night there were lots of dead ones around.   The exterminator
    said that what we're doing is starving the rest of the colony by
    killing the workers while they're out on their field trips.  Those
    that get back will carry some of this powder back with them.   Does
    this sound reasonable?   I had hoped for a story like .-1.
    
    By the way.   He claimed that a queen can live for 20 or more YEARS.

    I'm guessing the powder was diazinon, but who knows? I wouldn't
    expect the "tracking the poison back to the nest" to be so effective
    that it wipes the nest out entirely, but it ought to put some
    curbs on the population. With luck, the queen will die, and the
    rest will get depressed.
    
    The major point here is that carpenter ants do not eat wood - they
    just burrow in it. So they eat something else - if that something
    isn't readily available in your walls (I assume not), then the only
    way the colony doesn't starve is for food to be imported. Similarly,
    if they're not burrowing in wet wood, they need to import water.
    (This info is all nth hand - I'm no entomologist.) Poison their
    supply routes in a manner that doesn't deter them from using
    them, and they should track the poison back to the nest.
    
    

    To address the real question that started this note, RIVCO's are
    good windows for the price. There is no question that you can get
    a better window, but RIVCO's are a least as good as ANDERSONS (The
    IBM of windows...) In the last months, I have looked at a lot
    of windows. Anderson's vinyl exterior and poor grill work didn't
    go with the style house we are building. Marvin's were a good window
    but their grill system was terrible, little pins eating at my nice
    new $150 window. To make matters worse, every Marvin display I have
    seen for a double hung, double insulated window with grills, has
    had the grill work on the floor somewhere near the display.
    
    I think that RIVCO's are about a step better than the standard
    "shop" or builders grade window, for example BROSCO, LIBERTY,
    CORADCO(sp).
                                                               
    If you do go with Anderson, PF OCONNER does have good prices on
    them. Remember, the vinyl comes in two colors, white and brown.
    If you plan to put trim around your windows you will have add that
    your self or side right up to the window.  
    
    Let us know what you decide.

I had heard that in colonial times people planted mint around the foundations
of houses to repel insects.  Is this true?  Does it work?

Bob

    
    I'm looking for feedback on vinyl-clad windows...specifically
    Anderson's vinyl-clads.
    
    A couple of years ago I had an Anderson vinyl-clad sliding glass
    door installed in a vacation home.  Though the door seems to perform
    well, the vinly "strips" continually "pop" out of place all over
    the unit.  Though they can be "popped" back in, at this point, simply
    by pushing, this situation seems to be getting worse.  After a couple
    more years, I won't be surprised to find several vinyl parts missing.
    
    I'm now in the process of having a house built.  The builder is
    suggesting Anderson vinyl clad windows all around and has not hear
    of the problem that I'm having with the door in my other house.
    Since I don't want to spend the rest of my life maintaining 
    "maintenance-free" windows if this problem is common, I'd thought
    I'd ask the experts...
    
    Is the problem that I'm having with the door the "rule" or the 
    "exception" to the rule?
    
    Thanks in advance,
    John
    
    

    We just had Accurate Pest Control of Pepperell(sp?), MA come up
    to Milford, NH to get rid these pests. Mr. Martin was willing to
    travel a long way, after me (on sunday!) he was on his way to
    Litchfield, NH to do another job.
    
    Saturday we killed 30+ big black mama's (literally, wings and all) in
    the house. We did not
    see any more on sunday before APC showed up.  He hand pumped
    some 95% diazanon into the sill of the house where we saw saw dust.
    Then he sprayed the foundation, under the bay window and all around
    under and through the back porch. He guaranteed that the pests would
    disappear in two or three days and that the hornets and wasps that
    were building nests in our porch would not be back this year.
    
    He also said that we would be well advised to have this service
    every spring (surprise!).  And I will probably take him up on the
    suggestion.
    
    Bottom Line: $50 - 10% discount for DEC employees = $45
        (His wife works for DEC... Hi Karen)
    
    I will post the results in a week or so...
    
    Disclaimer:  I have never met the Martins before, am in no way
    affiliated with APC or any related companies, etc...
                                  

Re: .36

I have mint running wild all over my back yard and there's no sign that 
the ants are avoiding it. Smells nice when I cut the lawn, though.

The Christian Science Monitor -- better known for international news 
than for garden tips -- had a little blurb in its "Ask the Gardeners" 
column that said cucumber peelings will discourage ants.  You're 
supposed to put them on ant runs and over any hills.  (I still believe in 
better living through chemistry...)
					>>>==>PStJTT

    
    
    We have a contract on our house that says we get at least one
    inspection per year and treatment as required. It costs $45 per
    year from NEW ENGLAND pest control in warwick ,R.I. (I live in conn.+)
    The guy came out last week and told us essentially the same thing
    as Bill Martin said. spray the whole foundation up under the sills
    and up under the edges of the siding at least once in the season
    and better yet once a month from when it starts getting above freezing
    consistantly to when it starts freezing again. It can be done with
    any reasonable off the shelf bug stuff that kills ants. He also said
    that you will never get them all on one shot unless you wrap the
    house and bomb it real good for a while --- but that has to be done
    a couple of times to make sure you also get the larvae as they hatch.
    
    BTW. nothing in the house and a very small colony of carpenters
    just getting started in the detached garage.
    

There are MANY notes that deal with windows.  Check them out.  I think that 
general consensus would be that the ranking would be #1 -- Pella, #2 -- Marvin,
#3 -- Anderson.  They're not the window they used to be (10 yrs ago), they've 

    The house we bought two years ago has Anderson vinyl clad windows
    all around, except for the slider which is all wood. The vinyl is
    molded on the windows and not on removable strips, I don't think
    we could get it off if we tried. We've had no problems with them
    so far. The only complaint my wife has is that they don't pull
    out into the house for easy washing like our old house windows
    did.
    
    Gary

    I think  your slider was a bad batch or something. I've installed
    19 Anderson vinyl-clad in my new house and are very happy with them.
    They have only been in about a year but I've installed the same
    Andersons clad at two of my relative's houses and they've been perfect
    for years. I'd highly recommend them. If you get any of their
    narrowline windows, I'd also recommend you consider getting the
    Anderson storms. These matching storms work great and can be installed
    in about 3 minutes. Good luck.
    

    in re the once a year treatments.
    (no disrespect to the Martins intended)
    
    We too had carpenter ants. Called an exterminator, he did his shtick,
    and promised a one year guarantee. The ants came back in 12+months.
    My neighbor suggested spraying myself. Bought a sprayer (Chapin
    1 gallon I believe) for $10-15 (12 or so years ago) in K-mart and
    sprayed around our chimney. Killed *literally* hundreds of huge
    suckers. It has been an annual attritioning process, when a decreasing
    nr of ants (a dozen or less more recently) would appear each year after
    the first really hot/humid day. Didn't spray last year, haven't sprayed
    yet this year. Looks like we made it!
    
    Moral of the story:
    You too can mix and spray diazanon! The principle benefit of a
    professional exterminator in this case is to give the layman confidence
    that he can DIY. Call the exterminator, watch him do it once, then
    Do It Yourself.
    they are finally gone!

	I put Anderson vinyl clad windows throughout my house when I
	built it 3 years ago.  No problems at all.  I shopped around
	quite a bit beforehand and found the Andersons to be very good
	quality for the money.  I couldn't afford Pella.  I also wasn't
	convinced that Marvins were any better.

	I have double casements and a couple of awning windows.

	-gary

    Does anyone have any information on "BEST BUILT" windows?
    
    My builder is recommending them instead of the Andersons he normally
    uses. He has used them in a few houses and feels that they are just
    as good as the Andersons and 20% cheaper.
    
    The windows are an allowance item in our contract. He doesn't care
    what we use and would be happy putting in the Andersons. Just
    recommended the others as a way of saving money without cutting
    quality.
    
    Anyone heard of or used BEST BUILT? Opinions? Criticisms?
    
    						Mark
    
    P.S. Construction is moving ahead SLOWLY. The driveway is now roughed
    in so I can drive up if I'm careful. Still no solution to the power
    situation. The lot is half cleared and the foundation should be
    done by mid-July. Then the real fun starts.
    

    
    
        I am not an active reader of this file, but I need some answers
    to some window questions.  I did a DIR/TIT=WINDOW and did not find
    any titles for windows painted shut.  If there is already a note,
    please point me in the right direction.
    
        Anyway, I just picked up a house that is approx. 45 years old
    and many of the windows are painted shut.  They are the kind of
    windows that the bottom window slides up.  The window frame is wood
    and the sill and sliders are also wood.  They are painted shut and
    I would like to get them open.  Does any one have any good ideas
    on getting this done?  I realize I will probably have to repaint
    certain areas of the window afterwards, so let me hear your
    suggestions.
    
    Thanks for any help!
    
    Bill
    

  Are these normal double-hung windows?  You say "the bottom window slides
  up" but on double-hung windows, the top window should slides down as well
  (once you break the "paint seal" between the sash and the frame.

  The recommended procedure is to get a wide putty knife and tap it in
  between the sash and the frame all the way around.  The window should
  then open easily.  If you do it slowly and carefully, it shouldn't even
  crack the paint, so I see no real need to repaint.  

  This probably belongs in the "why did they ever do that?" note but...
  When we got our house, all the windows were painted shut.  I went around
  the house performing the procedure and everything came beautifully
  unstuck until I got to the north side of the house.  On the north windows,
  the putty knife went in ok and the window *looked* as though it should
  open the way the others had -- but no go.  So I got out my crowbar for
  heavy-duty persuasion.  Gentle pressure on the crowbar didn't budge the
  window, either.  I was just about to take the "get a bigger hammer"
  approach when I decided to investigate a bit.  It turns out that the
  northern windows had a different type of aluminum storm window on them
  than the others.  Looking more closely, I realized that they were too
  narrow to be attached to the trim boards at the outside edge of the
  window.  So when they put them on, the attaching screws went right into
  the *upper window sashes*!  It was not surprising that they didn't budge.
  Once I replaced the storm window screws with shorter ones, everything
  turned out fine.

  JP

    
    re; .1
    
       Yes, the windows that do work, the top also comes down.  So I
    guess that is what you would call double hung?  As a matter of fact,
    the windows in the living room, you shove the bottom window up,
    and the top window comes down.  So, I decided to quit trying to
    *open* the window and just started unlocking it and let the top
    one *open* itself.  Because as soon as you open the bottom one,
    the top would come down and reclose the window.
    
       I will try the putty knife idea, but they look like they are
    *really* painted shut.  
    
    Thanx for your reply.  If this does not work, are there any other
    ideas out there?
    
    Bill
    

    If your house is anything like my parents' house, they may be painted
    shut for a reason.  The reason being that they are old windows that
    do not come close to sealing properly.  When un-stuck you may find
    you have considerable draft problems which you won't notice much
    now, but come this winter you will.
    
    You've already got the best idea on how to un-stick them.  You may
    find that after you have, you'd wish you hadn't.  Be prepared to
    weather strip them or start looking at notes about replacement window
    installation.

    One more comment.
    
    It also sounds like you may have some broken sash cords or chains.
    These are the guys that attach the top and bottom window sashes
    to the counter weights inside the hollow 'pockets'.  When the cord
    or chain breaks from age, there is nothing to hold the window up
    and gravity takes over.  The sash cord (looks like clothesline rope)
    attaches to the window by running down a blind groove and is then
    knotted. Once you get one window sash out of its channel, you'll
    see what I mean.  The cord then runs over a pulley and down into
    the pocket or wall cavity and attaches to a heavy weight.
    
    Replacing your first set of sash cords can be a sticky situation,
    but once you get the hang of it, the rest aren't so bad.  
    
    There are four cords and weights per window in double-hung windows
    (two per sash).  Take a close look at the cords to see if they are
    intact.  You may find that one or both are broken, in which case
    you'll see the pulley at the top of the channel with no cord running
    over it.  If you have to replace a cord on one side, always replays
    the other one too, because it is probably ready to let go soon.
    
    To get the window sashes out of the opening, you have to remove
    the 'side stops' which are strips of wood running vertically up
    the full length of the frame.  These pieces keep the sash in place
    and form one half of the path which the sash travels up and down
    in.  The other half of the path is the window parting bead which
    is a single piece of wood running down the side of the frame between
    the top and bottom sashes.  It is usually set loosely in place id
    a recessed channel so that id can be easily removed when changing
    sash cords.  Sometimes, people pait the parting bead and seal it
    into its channel making it darn near impossible to remove without
    breaking.  Lumber supply places carry replacement parting bead,
    so don't worry if one does break.
    
    Once a sash weight cord breaks, the weight drops to the bottom of
    the cavity, so there should be a little door held closed by a screw
    which you can open up and gain access to the weight for attaching
    new sash cords.  The door is exposed once you remove the side stop
    strips. All of the side stops in my 100+ year old house are held
    on with wood screws.  Once the screws are removed, you may have
    to break the paint seal to avoid splitting the side stop.
    
    Hope I haven't scared you too much !!
    
    
    Good luck.
    
    Jim
    stop
     

    
    re; .3
    
        I thought of the windows being painted shut for a reason also.
    I live in Colorado and the weather/wind usually comes from the North
    or the West.  The 3 windows that I want to get open are on the East
    and South sides of the house.  The 2 windows on the North side that
    are painted shut, are going to stay that way!
    
    re; .4
    
       Thanks for the input.  I will have to look at that when I get
    home tonight.  Since all my houses have been less than 10 yrs. old,
    this is going to be a learning experience for me.  I would venture
    to guess that the cords in the windows no longer exist, cuz they
    open themselves *real* easy once I unlock them.
    
    Thanks again..
    
    bill
    

  .4 is probably right about the sash cord.  And the reason the sash cord
  broke is probably because they painted *that*, too.  Dried, cracked
  paint chips on the sash cord act as miniature knives on the fibers that
  make up the rope.  The cord should easily last 20 years if unpainted;
  paint it and it'll break real soon.

  JP

    Never heard of BEST BUILT but if I had the choice I go with Andersens
    Why fool around when you have a choice of the Best Window.
    
    
    Thats my $0.02 worth.
    
    
    
    	Don
    

"looks like they're *really* painted shut"

is it possible they were sealed with caulking, and then painted over 
the caulking?  If so, you may need a deep putty knife, or a hammer and 
thin brad to get things going.

    The builder calls them BEST BUILT but I'm sure they are the same
    thing. He told me they were made in MA.
    
    I'm willing to be convinced, but so far I'm leaning toward .1. I'm
    going to have to live with the windows for a long time and would
    rather pay more for a proven performer who I can be pretty sure
    will be around 10 years from now if I need parts/repair.
    
    						Mark
    

    
       Well, I attacked my windows this weekend.  I tried your putty
    knife trick and that did not work to well.  After thoroughly getting
    pissed off at the windows, I did things *my* way.
       I ended up taking the molding out of the inside of the sash(it
    holds the window in), once I got that out, the window *should* have
    come right out.  WRONG!  I then took the same putty knife and put
    it between the slider and the window.  Once I broke that loose,
    the window should have come right out. WRONG!  I then went outside
    the house, took the storm windows off and broke loose the outside
    of the window.  NOW, it should come out.  WRONG!  Finally I went
    back in the house, stuck the putty knife between the window and
    the sash and also inbetween the 2 windows, and the window fell out
    in my hands.
       Like I said, these windows were *really* painted shut.  I would
    really like to find the lazy bozo that painted these things.  I
    finally have some fresh air in the kids room and my kitchen.  I
    do have some painting to do to take care of the places I marked
    up.  It took me at least an hour to get the first window to open,
    after that, they went pretty easy.
    
    Thanx for all the quick replies,
    Bill
    

    Re: .8
    
    Good grief!
    
    Suggestion to one and all: take window sashes OUT when you paint
    'em!  

    
                                                         
    	Can anyone out there give me some tips, shortcuts, tricks o'
        the trade about how to put up moulding. I recently purchased
    	some cove moulding (colonial?) and would like to put it 
    	around the perimeter of my living room ceiling. I am having
    	trouble getting the correct angle on the exterior corner.
    	The room is shaped like this:
    
    
    		------------------------|
                                        |     What is the easiest way
                                        |     for me to determine the
                                        |     >> x angles? Then, how do
                                        |     I transfer that angle
    				     >>	x\    to the moulding? I am
                                          \   very new at this, and
                                     WINDOW|  ANY advice would be
                                           |  apprieciated. Thanks
                                          /   in advance for any help.
                                     >> x/ 
                                        |
    					| 
                                        |
             ---------------------------|
    
    
                                                 RB
     

    There's probably an easier way than this, but here is one way. 
    Get yourself what is known as a sliding T-bevel, which is sort
    an adjustable trysquare.  Briefly, you can put it up against two
    ajoining surfaces, set the angle and lock it, and transfer the 
    angle to something else.  Since you want to bsiect the angle,
    you can draw the angle from the T-bevel on a piece of paper, use
    compasses to bisect it (remember your high school geometry?), and
    then reset the T-bevel to the bisected angle to mark the moulding
    with.

    just fold the paper inhalf
    

>    just fold the paper inhalf
    
But how do you know that you've scribed the angle so that it's *exactly*
centered on the paper.  I'd stick with the compasses.  I've used that method
and it works.

						--Mike

    There are different methods for joining moldings at inside and
    outside corners. For outside corners, you determine the angle
    by some method such as described in .1, then cut both pieces at
    1/2 that angle so that they join properly.
    
    Inside corners are somewhat more complicated. If you just cut the
    pieces at an angle and try to join them they will probably separate
    when they are put in, leaving a gap at the corner. The proper method
    for joining inside corners is to leave one piece straight, and cut
    the end of the other piece with a coping saw to fit the shape of
    the molding. When you are cutting the cope you should angle the
    saw slightly (about 10 degrees) so that the back edge of the cope
    is "shorter" than the front edge. This will insure that the front
    edge will join tightly when the moldings are installed. One additional
    hint is to cope the end of the molding and check the fit before
    cutting the piece to length. After you are sure it is right you
    can cut the other end off (this won't work, of course, if there
    is only one piece which has to be joined at both ends - then you
    will just have to do it right the first time).
    
    Another point about putting up moldings. You only asked about the
    corners, but when straight pieces are joined in a run they should
    also be mitered at 45 degrees using what is called a "back miter",
    so when they are joined the joint will be as unobtrusive as possible
    and will not separate.
    
    The last thing to remember about putting up molding is not to be
    ashamed to use some spackling compound to fill in the cracks and
    holes (unless you have to stain or varnish it). A quick drying compound
    like DAP vinyl based spackle works very well, and you can use your
    finger to smooth it in on the curved edges.

    - Ram

    re: .3
    >But how do you know that you've scribed the angle so that it's *exactly*
    >centered on the paper.  
     
    You don't!  you line up the lines, not the edges of the paper.
    if the fold goes through the angle between the lines, and the 
    two lines lie on top of each other, the fold will exactly
    bisect the angle.  Regardless of where the edges of the paper are.
    
    Kevin
    

    re: .4
    
    That is the proper procedure (and well explained, I might add), but boy
    do you need a picture to figure out how to do it! 
    
    If it's not clear to whomever needs it, I'd be willing to try another
    verbal shot at it. 
    
    -joet

The one "trick" missing is how to get the correct outline for coping!  You need
to cut a 45 degree angle at the end of the molding.  This then forms an EXACT
outline which you can saw against.  If you're not familiar with this technique
try it and see...

-mark

My guess would be to make the cut at 1/2 the overall angle before coping.

-mark

      Which ants are carpenter ants?  This may sound ridiculous based
    on this note but I have read and heard many different descriptions.
    Notes in this file say they are 1/4 to 1/2 inch.  People are telling
    me that the 3/4 to 1 inch ants I have are carpenter ants.  Does
    this mean that ALL black ants are carpenter ants or are certain
    ones/sizes are?  I had seen 3 of these large suckers over the past
    three weeks but the bottom areas of the door jamb(sp?) and the door
    sill are rotted.  I believe that most of this rot is from the water
    getting trapped between the concrete stairs and the house.  I ripped
    up the door sill last night and found about a half dozen of them.
    They made very neat tunnels in this wood and put all of the sawdust
    in one pile and packed it very tightly (Professional carpenter ants?).
    As I said, these are VERY LARGE black ants and you can easily make
    out the details such as their jaws which look pretty vicious.  I
    did not find a nest of them...only these few.  I sprayed the entire
    area of rot but no more appeared.  Are these carpenter ants?  Could
    these be strays and there is no nest?  Do all carpenter ants have
    a nest with a queen?  
    
    -Jim
    

    Re: .42
    
    I'd say you've got 'em.  The difference in size estimates you've
    been hearing are probably just people's problems in estimating
    sizes.  Or they may come in different sizes.  The ones you have
    eat wood, which is the real issue, so the terminology is rather
    academic.
    As far as strays, etc. my guess is that those you found belong to
    a nest, somewhere.  Whether it is in your house or not, who knows.
    Your best bet is probably some more exploratory digging in the
    door sills and jambs, to see what you find.  If the wood is rotten
    you ought to replace it anyway.

    They definitely come in different sizes - I don't know if this
    reflects different ages (older ants getting bigger) or different
    varieties (Paul Williams ants vs Arnold Schwartzenegger). At various
    times I have seen them ranging from 1/4" or less to as large as 1"
    (these open the door when they want in). 

Something else to bear in mind in all of this:

Re: .35

<    The major point here is that carpenter ants do not eat wood - they
<    just burrow in it. So they eat something else . . .
<    . . . Poison their
<    supply routes in a manner that doesn't deter them from using
<    them, and they should track the poison back to the nest.
    
Not only are you poisoning their food and their supply routes, you
are poisoning _them_.  All types of ants are cannibals.  Therefore,
when you poison the little buggers slowly, they return to the nest,
croak, and then become dinner for their buddies.  This is the idea
behind anttraps -- which, BTW, DO work if you use them soon enuf
before your infestation is too severe.

Prill

P.S.  Hi Paul -- how's Nancy?

Prill (Magalhaes) McGan

      Thanks for the quick replies!  Yes I will be doing more exploratory
    this weekend when I replace the jamb (or a good portion of it) due to 
    rotting.  I dug down almost to the foundation sill along the outside 
    edge and found only extremely rotted/drenched wood.  I did not dig
    further directly under the sill because I was not ready to repair
    it.  Also, I sprayed Black Flag "Professional" ant and roach killer
    directly on these guys and they laughed at me! :^)   I mentioned
    it to my neighbor and he suggested using a gun. 
    
    -Jim
    

    Could someone post a description of the little beasties that would
    enable the regular asshole off the street to differentiate them
    from their less malicious brethren?
    
    -joet

    Re: .47
    
    Joe,
    
      If you have one of those cages used to transport small animals,
    I'll send you one!  :^)
    
    -Jim             
    

    Re: .7
    
    	Thank you!  I've been doing it for years, and never thought
    of that trick.  I always wondered how the pro's did it ... I just
    figured that they had a better "eye"
    
    HOME_WORK strikes again.  I'm sure that Digital is in the wrong
    business.
    

    I don't want to be flip, but you'll know them when you see them. I am a
    city boy who can distinguish 3 or 4 kinds of rats and 1/2 dozen
    roaches, but the only ants I ever saw before moving out into the
    boondocks (Acton Mass) were those little fellers at church picnics, 
    or coming up through the cracks in sidewalks. Perhaps you will remember
    the admonishment from your mother "don't spill sugar, it'l bring
    ants"?. Those little beasties you would sqeeze between 2 fingers?
    Those suckers are not carpenter ants. The red ones are not
    carpenter ants. I just sharpened a #3 pencil. The common variety
    black ants are about the length of the lead on a very sharp #3 pencil.
    and about the same girth. (just measured lenght of pencil tip at
    1/4"). Carpenter ants run twice as long or more and substantially more
    "girthy" (sic). So estimates of 1/2"-1" are probably pretty good.
    (Don't know many who would sqeeze one of them between two fingers.)
   
    Another possible comparison. We have several (or at least a few) ant
    hills on our property. These are the old fashioned ones I grew to know
    and love on various streets of Boston. There is *no* way those suckers
    can be confused with carpenter ants. Have frequently heard that the 
    small ants will never go into a house that has carpenter ants. May
    or may not be true, but we have never seen any of those litte fellas
    in our house, just in little piles of sand (ant hills) outside.
    

    By the way, in reference to using DIAZANON: I think MALATHION is
    stronger that DIAZANON. Its my impression that MALATHION is considered
    the strongest generally available insecticide on the market. Chlordane
    was, and of course DDT before that. But neither can currently be
    purchased, although Chlordane can still be used if purchased n years ago.
    
    pps 
    in an earlier note (.41) I said we have gotten rid of them finally.
    Spoke too soon. My daughter saw one last week. Out with the spray
    again

    We have a few stray carpenter ants in the house, and they are 1/2"
     - 3/4" inch long.  The exterminator says that we don't have a nest,
    but I don't know whether to believe him.
    
    But they come smaller too.  I was out sponging down the picnic table
    (stained cedar) yesterday, and noticed a little sawdust scattered
    on the deck around one leg.  I looked underneath, and there is this
    little tunnel in a knothole.  So I gave it five seconds worth of
    ortho crwaling and flying bug spray: yup, out came writhing small
    black ants, maybe 1/4" long.
    
    BTW, we have the minature black and red ones in the house too.
    
    And maybe they come bigger.  Friday night, I'm working in my shop in
    the garage, and I hear this rattling in the closet that contains the
    water tank.  What's that noise?  It's the metal case of an ANT TRAP
    moving around over the (concrete) floor.  Sounds of a struggle, finally
    quietens down.  How big does an ant have to be to pick up an ant
    trap!!!  ( I have to admit that I didn't open the door to look.) 

      Here's the story.  Saturday I took out all the rotten wood (almost
    all) down to the house sill.  Yes, half of that was rotten too but
    there seems to be adequate support left.  Apparently the concrete
    stairs were letting water drain right down to the foundation.
    Everything inbetween was rotten/soggy.  During the course of all
    this I found a grand total of two more carpenter ants. I was waiting
    for the exterminator to come by and tell me if I had a problem.
    This was the ideal time because everything was exposed.  I wasn't
    sure if he was going to show up so I figured I'd go ahead and spray
    some Black Flag in there so I could begin putting it all back together.
    Since I had the door jamb out, I went ahead and sprayed above the
    door...not for any particular reason except that the area was now
    somewhat exposed.  To my surprise, out came the carpenter ants!
    The ones from above were the 1/2 inch variety, a few with wings
    but most without.  He told me that these were the workers and that
    the ones in the door sill (the 3/4" to 1" size) were building a
    nest and that they were the egg layers.  He said nothing about a
    queen but that these were asexual? and did the reproducing themselves.
    I'm a little fuzzy is this area. I don't know if he meant this
    particular variety or what.  I asked him about the ones with wings
    and he said that all ants have wings at one time or another and
    that they use the wings when they swarm (maybe this is how they
    go house-hunting).  Anyway, by removing the cause of the moisture,
    they will eventually leave.  I asked him how to distinguish between
    the regular harmless ants and carpenter ants and he pointed out
    that carpenter ants have relatively large heads and that the mandibles
    (what I call jaws) are more pronounced whereas regular ants have
    heads that are smaller than the other sections of their body.
    
    -Jim
    

	I've seen carpenter ants about 1 1/4" long.

	I've never read about swarming ants... sounds weird.  Sounds like
	a horror movie.

	The literature says the winged ones are queens.

	I wouldn't try to pick one up; they bite.  Do carpenter ants
	produce formic acid?  I read somewhere that ants use it to disable
	prey, though no single ant is likely to produce enough to harm a
	large animal.  Once, when I was digging a ditch, I noticed a
	carpenter ant eyeing me expectantly.  It probably thought I looked
	like dinner.  I sliced it in half with the shovel.  The front half
	started looking for me, with its mandibles working furiously.  This
	lasted about half a minute before both halves finally expired.
	The Bible says something about the meek inheriting the Earth.  To
	hell with the meek; the carpenter ants will inherit the Earth, or
	else.

	Incidentally, up north (say 100 miles north of Boston) there are no
	termites because winter frost sinks down too far and kills them.
	Guess what.

	Regards, Robert.

    
    re .7
    
    I'm not quite sure what you mean as far as "getting an outline".
    Is it an outline of the angle you're trying to fit up against?
    Also, could you give me a few more tips on coping, as I have
    never even touched a coping saw. Thanks.
    
    							RB
    
    PS. It is definitely not as easy as it looks!!!!!!!!! 
    

    re .7
    
    Sorry, I forgot to mention about cutting the end at a 45 degree
    angle to get the outline for the cope. The idea is this: You are
    fitting the end of one piece against the molded edge of the other.
    By cutting down through the piece to be coped from the top, and
    angling the saw at 45 degrees so that the back (straight) edge of
    the molding will be longer than the front (molded) edge, the cut
    leaves an outline on the front edge against which you can cope.
    
    There is nothing really difficult about using a coping saw. Just
    turn it as you go down to follow the outline formed by the 45 degree
    miter cut. And as I said before, angle it slightly so that the back
    edge of the cut will be a little shorter than the front edge (the
    opposite angle from the miter cut). This will allow the pieces to
    join cleanly.
    
    I admit, this is somewhat hard to follow without pictures, but it isn't
    really that difficult to do. Using a coping saw well takes a little
    practice, but what doesn't? The result will justify the effort. If you
    can't figure it out from these descriptions, and you don't have anybody
    around who can demonstrate, try looking at a book on finish work in
    Grossman's or some such place. I'm sure somebody must have written a
    book which describes these procedures with pictures.
    
    - Ram 

The Old-House Journal for June 1985 has a long article about removing 
interior woodwork (i.e. trim) without damaging it too much, and then
re-installing it.  The installation section includes an excellent writeup 
of coping, complete with OHJ's usual fine drawings and photographs.

    No problems here either with either the double hung or vinyl clad
    sliding doors.  I don't remember if I have the narrow line windows
    or not.  How do I tell and how does the storm windows fit on.  I
    have screens that cover the entire window from outside.
    
    Gerry
    
    P.S.  Storms should be better than just thermal panes.
    

    I need to replace the poor quality, ill-fitting aluminum storm windows
    on my house (combination-type) and I'm looking for a company in
    the northern MA/southern NH area that make wood-frame combination
    windows.  Checks of the local phone books have found any number
    of places that make aluminum, and I already know that Rivco (in
    Nashua, NH) sells wood-frame windows of standard sizes.  My problem
    is that my 95 year old house has no standard dimensions -- anywhere!
    
    I really need someone who makes the windows since the majority of
    my 42 windows will undoubtedly be non-standard size (the first 3
    I've measured are all odd-sized).  Anybody know where I should look?
     Comments on price and quality will also be greatly appreciated.
    
    
    Jan  who_can't_wait_to_have_screens_everywhere

Try Merrimack Valley wood products in Methuen 617-686-3804.  They just 
made 14 custom wooden sash sets for my 1902 house.  They came and 
measured, and guaranteed they would fit.  Also they are very reasonable.


...bill

    I will be finishing some new wood frame windows as part of a remodeling
    project.  They will be stained and sealed.  The windows all have
    the little pane dividers (three have real dividers, and three have
    inserts).  My question is: What is the best finish to use for this?
    Polyurethane? Watco? Tung oil?  I am concerned with the grime from
    hands opening and closing the windows, the durability with the sun
    shining on the window sills, and the ease of application (especially
    on those tedious pane dividers).  
    
    Also, why is it necessary to use steel wool between coats when using
    an oil finish?  Is it just to remove dust, or will the oil not
    sink in properly if you skip the steel wool step?  (You can see
    I want to make this job as easy as possible.)
    

I've never heard of using steel wool between coats of oil (then again, there's
a LOT of things I've never heard of)...

It's a musts for polyurethane, though.

-mark

    Merrimack Valley is good...per reply #1.
    
    
    Marvin....national window company....has an "Alpine" model wooden
    storm/combination. Marvins are distributed usually through lumber
    yards.
    
    john mollica
    

    
    
    	If you want to do it right you will need the following:
    
    
    		Cray XMP super computer front ended by a McAuto CAD/CAM
    station running Molecular Modeling software. Just describe the shape
    of molecules to look like molding then display you work in a 3D
    window until you get the desired shape. After you have the desired
    shape get a hardcopy printout on your full color laser printer and
    send it off for blue printing and your ready to go.
    
    	This solution may sound expensive but the computer can later
    be used for children to play video games.
    
    
    		Good luck,
    		-Steve-
    
    P.S.
    	This is what happens to a programmer after sheet rocking all
    weekend !!

    Re .1:  Merrimack Valley doesn't make storm windows -- I just called and
    asked.  They also couldn't think of anyone else who still makes them.
              
    
    Re .2:  The Marvin sounds good but I would have the same problem as with
    Rivco, I would only be able to buy standard sizes.  I need custom!
    
    Thanks anyway, anybody else out there have an answer?
    
    
    Jan  who_still_has_a_stuffy_house

    
    
    	You said that you need custom and Marvin was out. I have 5 custom
    Marvin windows in my house, they will make just about anything you
    need.

    Re .4:  Maybe I misunderstood -- I thought the reply said I could
    buy Marvin at lumber yards, not that I would be dealing with Marvin
    directly.  I'm envisioning the typical hardware store, they tell
    you what they have and you decide if it's what you need.  Can I
    get lumber yards to special-order?  Will any lumber yard do this,
    or should I be prepared to hunt for that one in a million store
    that offers service?
    
    Jan  who_doesn't_normally_frequent_lumber_yeards
    

    I bought and ordered my windows thru Moores Home Center. They sell
    everything under the sun. These stores are geared more to the casual
    do-it-your-selfer.
    
    	-Steve-
    

ALL Marvin Windows are "custom ordered" and "custom made."  They do have 
standard sizes, and you pay a little more for having "custom" sizes, but they 
will cheerfully make any size/shape you need.  We just got a quote for 45 
Marvin casement/fixed windows for the house we're building at $13K.

			Andy Ostrom

    I have a new house with newly stained pine window frames.  I assume the
    builder put something over the stain to protect them but I don't know
    what was used. I would like to put an additional something on the
    window frames to try to protect them from my cats' claws.  They love to
    sit in open windows.  Does anyone have any suggestions?
    
    Carol

    Over time, claws will damage the wood regardless of the finish.
    (I speak from a 4 cat experience). While it's usually impossible to
    keep cats out of all your windows, you can try to find their favorite
    spot and make this your target. (We have a family room that they
    love because of the sun and the view; all kinds of birds and things)

    For the cat's viewing pleasure when the window is closed I have a 
    "cat seat" that works quite well.
    
    To protect the windows that are open try this:
    
    Cut a piece of plexiglass to fit the window opening (be sure to cover
    the sill), and set it in there. You won't have to secure it with
    screws and it can be moved to any window you choose.
     
    If the cat has a particularly favorite window you should consider
    securing a piece of plexiglass to the wall directly below the window.
    This saves the wall from the ocassional miscalculated jumps.
    
    Hope this helps, 
    
    Dan

>        Cut a piece of plexiglass to fit the window opening (be sure to cover
>    the sill), and set it in there. 
    
    You could also use carpeting.
    

    I've searched everything on windows and have never seen anything
    mentioned on "Weather Shield" windows.  A good friend of mine,
    who also used to be a builder, is a salesman for a distributer 
    that sells "Weather Shield" windows. My friend thinks they are 
    good quality windows and he can get them for me at a great discount.
    However, the discount really isn't if the quality of the window
    is not good. I do trust my friend but most people have their own
    biases. I haven't found these windows anywhere (although I recently
    saw an ad for them in a home mag) nor have I found anyone that has
    used them.
    
    Can anyone tell me anything about Weather Shield, good or bad?
    
    Thanks, Kathy

    Weather Shield windows where placed in our new contemporary 3-4
    years ago. Generally, their quality is fair (in my opinion). The
    cranking mechanism in at least 3 of the windows have failed and
    you can't use it is open the window the first few inches, or close
    it the last few. My builder use them because they appeared to have
    a good quality-to-price ratio, but he does not use them now. If
    I were on better terms with my builder, I have have he replace or
    repair those windows. If your builder will stand behind them, you
    may be okay. To be safe, ask for a specific guarantee, or ask for
    Anderson (or Pella or Marvin,etc.).
    

    I have Weather Shield double hung windows throughout my house and have
    no complaints. They may not be Marvin's or Anderson's, but there look
    good, fit tight and the double hungs work fine. I have none with
    cranks, so I can't comment on those. 
    
    I did have a problem with some of the panes fogging up after a couple
    of years, the common factor appeared to be the manufacturing date stamp
    on those windows (July 81, must have been a bad month). I called the
    main office in Pennsylvania, the took the sizes and manf date over the
    phone and sent me new glass panels at no cost to me. I had to install
    them my self, but it was a five minute job.
    
    Charly
    

    I had a Weather Shield window put in the bathroom in my last house.
    It worked well and seemed to be made well.  No complaints.
    You might also look into KSI windows.  They are certainly less
    expensive than Marvins or Andersons and seem to be pretty good.
    I just installed a KSI mini-bow in my new house and I am quite pleased.
    My carpenter said they are like the Chevrolet of windows (compared
    to Pellas being the Cadillac).  That is, they work well, are well
    made and are affordable.
    
    Unless of course, you want a BMW.....

    So two out of three people with these windows had problems.  I guess
    that answers your question.
    

    I just looked up the number for Weather Shield my latest copy of
    MASTERGUIDE, a specifying and buying guide Directory of the AIA.
    
    		WEATHER SHIELD MANUFACTURING INC.
    		330 Middle Street
    		Middletown, CT 06457
    		(203)632-1443
    
    I spoke with Gail in Customer Service and found out they have a
    very good warranty on the windows. 
    

    
    Thanks for the replies on Weather Shield windows. Your feedback
    makes it a lot more comfortable to come to a big decision.
    
    Kathy 

    	I put Weather Shields in a porch/sunroom I'm building. I've
    only had them in for a year so can't comment on endurance quality.
    But, I did look at all the others and my reason for choosing them
    are as follows. In order of importance
    
    	1. Off the shelf size availability
    
    	2. Wood casings/molding to match existing windows
    
    	3. Price
    
    	4. Delivery time (2 weeks)
    
    	5. Good quality (not the best, not the worst)
    
    	6. Could buy them from the lumber yard I do business with
    
    
    As was mentioned before they're not Marvins, but then again you're
    not paying for Marvins.
    
    				...Dave

	Another possibility (if you have them locally available) is
	Crestline windows.  I put mostly Andersons in my house when
	I built it, but I needed to put in a couple of large windows
	(6'6" x 4') on the south side of my house and the Andersons
	were way to expensive.  I found the Crestlines to be excellent
	quality at a very reasonable price.  The local lumber yard
	carried a good selection of them but I needed to order mine
	special.  Even then I got a good price and they showed up within
	a couple of weeks.

	-gary

    I'm not sure if this is the place to ask, but here goes:
    
    The house I just bought has a yard with lots of ant hills.  And
    it may be my imagination, but they seem to be spreading.  I'm seriously
    thinking of putting down lawn insecticide while I still have a lawn
    and driveway (it's dirt).  
    
    What I'm wondering is... will spreading lawn chemicals drive ants
    into the house?  Maybe I should leave well enough alone.
    
    Thanks.
    
    Elaine
    

I have the same problem - and am currently assessing chemical lawn 
services (who also would take care of my abundance of weeds and lack 
of grass).  Mine are the tiny black and red kind.  My exterminator 
friend tells me to mix fertilizer with diazinon (or you can buy 
diazinon/fertilizer mixtures) and spread it on the lawn, and that they 
will not come in the house.

PS - anyone out there whho would admit to using a lawn service and 
willing to make a pro/con recommendation?

    If you want to be extra sure that the ants don't migrate, you can
    spray the foundation and the ground immediately around it with
    diazinon.  That's a good carpenter ant preventative too.
    
    /Dave

    I'll testify to the effectiveness of diazinon.  I put some spoonsful
    along the inside and outside of my workshop exterior walls and in a
    couple days the workshop floor was littered with hundreds of dead ants.

    I think it's effective for only a few days out of its container.

    I live in Andover, Ma.  Supposedly the area is really a hot spot
    for carpenter ants.  We were told by several people when we bought
    the house to get a treatment once per year.  I enlisted the services
    of Waltham Chemical Co., who has an Andover office, who came out
    and took care of the buggers.  Their promotional literature has
    big pictures of all the common pests.  Yes, the differentiating
    feature of carpenter ants is their head size and "jaws".
    
    They have an annual service plan that costs about the same as
    a normal inspection and treatment ($125/year, I think).  It covers
    most common pests, but not termites.  With the plan, they
    come out 3 times per year (early spring, mid/late summer,
    and late fall/early winter - I think).  This is because none of
    the chemicals last forever.  The major treatment is the early
    sping one.  They spray around the foundation, "dust" the foundation
    sill and attic soffits, and spray around the baseboards inside.
    They do ask that pets and small children not be around for a few
    hours until the spray dries.                                         
    
    When we first moved in, we had problems with carpenter ants, regular
    ants (they WERE in the house at the same time as the carpenter ants),
    mice, millipedes, "cluster" flies, wasps/hornets (hundreds of them),
    and a number of other insects.  Since they began treatments, we've
    had almost no problems.  If we do get a problem (e.g. a couple of
    mice were rather persistent and I discovered the cluster flies in
    an attic soffit), they come out free of charge.
    
    I've been tempted to cancel the service and do it myself.  I don't
    remember now what chemicals they used, but I'm sure they'd tell
    me if I ask again.  However, it IS convenient, doesn't cost too
    much, and I'd really rather let them handle/store those chemicals.
    I hope this doesn't get my DIYer license revoked.
    
    Rob
    

    RE: Lawn Service Companies.  I have had both Chemlawn and New England
    Green.  Neither provided ant control in the lawn.  Maybe at extra
    cost but I was told by both of these companies that they don't do it.
    .57 refers to an exterminator company, sounds like they way to go.
    Good luck with the Lawn Service companies, currently New England Green and
    I may meet in court for problems to long to go into in this note.
    
    

    Re: .53
    
      I have the same thing happening in my yard.  They do seem to be
    spreading but they don't really bother me.  I don't want to use
    an insecticide because of the many neighborhood pets that hang around
    my yard...not to mention that my yard is also a haven for chipmunks.
    As long as they stay outside I won't worry about them.  I don't
    think they are destroying my lawn.  They only seem to be in areas
    where the lawn was already weak.  
    
    -Jim
    

	You could get a dog ... ;^)

    We have a vinyl Anderson sliding door that is used at least 12 times
    a day.  It was installed about 6 years ago and we haven't had a
    single problem with it.  We are in the process of building another
    house and I'm having the Anderson vinyl door and windows installed.

    Our dog likes to stand with front paws on the window sill so that
    he can see what there is to bark at.  His claws do as much damage
    as any cat would do (if not more - his claws are bigger).
    
    Rob

	I just ordered a PEACHTREE bay window to replace two side by side
	double hung windows in our kitchen.  It's a northern exposure so
	we opted for the low-E glass approx. $35.- more.  It will arrive 
	in about six weeks.  I am in the process of researching all my
	books on windows especially in reference to bays actually this
	will be an ARIEL type installation as defined in the OHJ.  I checked
	this notes file but did not see too much in regards to Bay windows.
	My house is approx. sixty years old and the rough opening left by
	the double hungs will just need slight filling.

	I would be interested in anyone's experiences in general with
	installing a bay and also any recommendations as to adding the
	roof for it.  We had thought copper but due to the price and
	in keeping with the character of the house we opted for a shingled
	roof.

	All inputs welcome.			Thanks Randy

	

    Great timing!  I'm doing about the same thing if the thing ever
    arrives (told 2-3 weeks, 4 weeks ago).  I'll be replacing a picture
    window flanked by two double hung windows.  Since the bow I'm getting
    is smaller than the existing opening, I'll just have to put in new
    double 2x4's on each side and close up the extra.
    
    Anybody have any suggestions on the supports that are needed UNDER
    the window?  I've seen some premade supports in some stores.  Are
    these good enough or should something more substantial be built?

    Phil

    
    
    	You can buy the roofs already made for a bow window.
    
    	-Steve-
    

re: .1

	The premade wooden supports, (brackets) are sufficient to support
	a bay the only question is 2 or 3, depends on width of the window
	unit.  You referenced bow for your installation bows do not generally
	stick out that far from the house maybe 5 or 6 inches in which case
	you would not need any brackets.  A bay traditionally sticks out
	from 12 to 18 inches hence the supports.

re: .2

	Premade shingled roofs are available?  I don't want plastic or
	copper because it won't fit the character of the house, and in
	the case of copper very expensive.  I would be interested to 
	know who sells a pre-fab wood/asphalt shingle type roof though.
    

    	I'll 2nd that, I put a 6ft wide bow in my old house and didn't
    use any brackets as it only extended 8 inches out. I did however
    frame out the 8 inches with 3/4 inch plywood nailed securely into
    the sill, and then set the window on this. You have to put something
    under the window any way because the don't come finished on the
    top and bottom. Also a piece of rigid insulation on top and bottom
    wouldn't hurt.
    	As for the top, I was able to box an inch or so up to the 
    overhang on my house.
        
    	If your getting a big one keep in mind those things are heavy,
    it took 3 of us to lift a 6ft x 5ft.
    
    			good luck...
    			...Dave
    				
    	

	Well, I've been looking into windows also and have found a super
	window & door company called Donat Flamand Inc.  They are a 
	Canadien Co. selling out of Manchester, N.H. and they have some
	really nice Windows in either Pine, Cedar, or Vinal Clad.  They
	have all kinds of options that you can add to them like diamond
	grills instead of square and triple glass and Low-Emissivity glass.

	I have purchassed 8 casement windows, 2 Bath windows, 2 exterior 
	doors and a three pane slider from them.  The best thing is you can
	buy direct through the Manchester office and SAVE MONEY !

	The salesman I talked to was Jeff Cyr  603-625-1418  and you can feel
	free to use my name in talking with him.  


	Chuck April

    re .4

    I don't really see how the plywood is going to provide the necessary
    support, although you might have gotten away with it since the window
    only extends 8". I installed one last year that said supports were
    "optional", but it began sagging almost immediately after being
    put in, so I now have to add some braces. I would say that if the
    bay is of any substantial size you should plan on putting in braces.

    I agree with the idea of putting rigid foam on the top and bottom.
    3/4" of pine is not much of an insulator.

    The bow will extend out 12" and is quite long, more than 7 feet.
    I plan on boxing in the top since the soffit extends out over the
    window.  I can then stuff insulation up there.  For the bottom,
    I presume I'll have to insulate, enclose and then install the supports.
    Is this correct?

    Phil
    
    P.S.
    I think I'll have to buy another case of beer for additional helpers,
    right Charly?

    That's the way I would do it. If your bay is anything like the ones
    I have installed it has a lip extending down about 1 1/2" around
    the bottom. I would fit foam sheets into the cavity, then cover
    it with exterior plywood. Pay some attention to how you seal the
    edge of the plywood, since it will be subjected to some runoff from
    the window. I would caulk it and cover the edge with a molding.
    Then install the braces. How you attach them to the house depends
    on the kind of siding you have.

    Ok, now you are talking about something near and dear to my heart.
    I have a BAY window, stick out 18 inches, 7 feet long and lets in
    mucho cold air in the winter.  very uncomfortable when sitting in
    front of it.  The builders must not have put ANY insuloation in
    there, which surprises me as the rest of the house is insulated
    pretty well.
    
    Anyway, anyone have any suggestions for retrofitting insulation
    into this beast without ripping the wall apart? Blow some in?

    re: .8
    
    If you're talking about a small volume, would anyone have any
    objections to squirting a can or two of expanda-foam into a couple
    of 3/8" holes drilled into the cavities?
    
    -joet

Soon after I moved into my new house, someone from "Blue Diamond
window-care" (in Holliston) left an estimate of $43 to clean my
windows.  Thought nothing of it, till I went at them with the hose and
realized I was having very little effect.  Most of the windows are
under an extension of the roof, so the rain doesn't get in very far
either. 

Anyone heard of these guys, or had any experience with 'professional' 
window washers?  As a once or twice a year deal - sounds like it could 
be worth it, IF they deliver.  On the other-hand, tips for good DIY 
(other than a big ladder, a bigger scrubbrush, and a pail) wouldd also 
be cheerfully accepted).

			thanx	/j

(PS - the picture in the brochure shows the guy holding a high-pressure nozzle).

    	A real DIYer would replace all the windows in the house with
    the kind that tilt in for cleaning.
    
    	Fortunately I already have them...
    					...Dave

    Yeah, that way you don't have to pay 43 bucks to have someone clean
    them. What a briliant idea!
    :-)

    
    	I cleaned my windows with (please don't laugh) SWIRL-ON.  Yes,
    it is the silly attachment you see advertised every ten minutes
    on cable TV.  The funny thing is it works pretty good.  
    	For those of you fortunate enough not to have seen the commercial
    the SWIRL-ON brush is attached to a long handle that connects to
    your hose.  The water pressure causes the brush to spin and dispense
    soap into the brush.  By the way I bought it at the local
    NHD hardware store for about $15.
    
    					=Ralph=

    Real DIY'ers don't care if the windows are dirty.  They're too busy
    fixing the roof or whacking moles...

    For what it's worth in the long run:
    
    The fifteen-year-old house we just bought has all Rivco double-
    hung windows in different sizes.  They appear to have stood up
    well: no warping, separations, loosening, or deterioration of
    the wood.
    
    pbm
    

	I am currently on the final leg of building my own house and would
like to share some bad experiences I have had with Marvin Windows, their
factory, distributor, and dealer, so that others who are contemplating pur-
chasing windows will not find themselves in the same situation as I now find
myself.

	When my wife and I were considering windows for our new house, we
had several contractors and homeowners recommend Marvin, stating that they
were "the best".  Admittedly, we did very little comparing between window
companies, and because our lumberyard also recommended Marvins we decided
to use these windows in our house.  This is the only item that we didn't
'shop around' for, and now, we very much regret not doing so.

	We ordered seven windows, one eight foot bow window, and a six foot
french door, from our lumberyard dealer totaling $3223.00.  One window, a
28X24/36 six over nine bedroom window, has a sizeable splinter on the outside
sill and in fact the splinter itself is split into three or four pieces thus
appearing very rough, gouged, and sticks out from the frame in a most obvious
manner.  In addition, the little brackets that hold the screen against the
window frame are all at different heights, from which I conclude that the fac-
tory worker who constructed this window was not paying attention to his work.

	Another bedroom window, the same size, has an obvious bow in the out-
side casing that is nailed into the sheathing.  As a consequence, the screen
does not fit correctly into the frame.  This was probably due to the strapping
being loose on the interior of the window frame, whose purpose is to keep the
window from spreading out before it is installed.  This seems to make sense
since the builder had to square another bedroom window before he installed it
because the same thing had happened to it.

	The above windows are mullions (two windows connected together) and
where they meet, they are stapled together on the interior.  No mullion strips
were provided by the factory to hide these construction blemishes, but WERE
provided for a different type of window, a casement type that went in the kit-
chen. 

	One of the worst things is our living room bow window.  When the bow
was delivered, it had a protective seat board cover so that the wood would
not get damaged during shipment and installation.  The seat board is con-
structed of joint and plane 4X12 (approximately) pine strips, which for our
tastes, we thought was a much nicer finish than just plywood, as many such
windows come.  A couple of days after the window was installed, we picked up
some stain and varnish to finish the bow which is to be the center focal point
in out living room.  When we took off the protective covering from the seat
board, all the pine boards were beautifully finished except for one.  In the
middle of all this nice white pine joined board, is one RED (as in dark maho-
gany red) board.  I realize there are variations in wood tone between different
pieces of the same type wood, but this piece is way out of place, and in our
opinion, just ruins the rest of the window.  Since we are using a very light
stain throughout the entire house, there is no hope of covering up this dark
piece.  I cannot conceive how Marvin can possibly pass such a blemish in an
interior window such as this through their quality control.  Their excuse is
"we can't guarantee wood tone variations in our products".  How convenient!

	Lastly, we had, and have, problems with our french doors.  The first
set we received had what is known as a 'wane' in the outside casing.  This is
where the wood was milled too close to the bark of the tree, and some of the
bark still exists on the wood.  In addition, the wood, because it is so close
to the edge of the tree, is irregular in shape and is not true and square.
Luckily, as fate would have it, the dealer had sent me someone elses french
door and when I got mine, there was no wane in it.  However, what noone
bothered to tell us, was that the french doors are made for 2X4 construction
not 2X6, which is what we have, and that the only way to use the doors are with
extension jambs.  The instructions with the door state that with the extension
jambs in place, the doors will only open 90 degrees.  French Doors are suppose
to operate, by design and by name, so that both doors open ALL THE WAY!  We
paid $701.40 for these doors, which is alot of money for something that doesn't
work the way we want it to.  One other "SMALL" detail is that in order to use
the extension jambs with the door, the rough opening has to be 1/2" larger than
the normal rough opening.  The house is completely framed and enclosed and the
rough opening for the doors does not include this important 1/2" because we 
were never told about it, nor does the Marvin catalog document any such infor-
mation about it.

	I contacted the dealer immediately about the construction and materials
used in the windows, and he tried to recommend puttying the first bedroom win-
dow, and said that Marvin would probably suggest putting plywood over the bow 
window seat board.  We were not satisfied with these solutions, and he said that
he would have the distributors representative go look at the window and see what
they could do.  In the interim, I contacted the Marvin Factory in Warroad MN, to
talk first hand with a customer representative hoping they would have a more 
satisfying solution to the problem.  Unfortunately, they had a very lackadaisi-
cal attitude toward the situation.  They concurred, as the dealer said they 
would, that the only solution was to put on a plywood top, and they couldn't be
held responsible for the variations in wood tone that they put in their pro-
ducts.  When I informed the person that this was not a 'variation' in wood tone
but a completely different colored piece, he said he would contact the distri-
butor, and have them take a look at it.
	The next day I called the dealer and he said that the distributor's
representative had indeed gone to look at the window and came up with the same
solutions as had been proposed before.  I informed him that this was not a 
satisfactory solution, especially when I had paid $926.00 for a new 'looking'
window.  He said that he was out of alternatives and that any other solutions
would have to come from the distributor, and that I would have to contact them.
	I once again called the Marvin factory and talked to the same person
again who informed me that they were 'kind of busy' and didn't have alot of time
to spend on this problem, (to which I raised my eyebrows but said nothing, and
started to realize I was going to have problems here) that he had contacted the
distributor in massachusetts and that the distributor was aware of my situation
and would try to rectify it with me.  I asked for the name and number of the 
person he had talked to, and he gave it to me stating that this person was a 
supervisor or something and would help me out.
	When I gave this person a call, he had NO IDEA who I was or what the 
problem was, and said he had never been contacted by the Marvin Factory!  His
attitude was 'this is the way they come' and provided no new solutions for the
problems I was having.  He, like all the others, wants to put a piece of ply-
wood over the bow window seat board, and I informed him that this was not a sat-
isfactory solution.  When I asked him if it was plywood or nothing, he said no,
but he would have to have a Marvin representative look at the window.  When I
asked for the name and number of this person, he would not give me either.  He
said he would contact him, but would not guarantee when the rep would get out
to see it.  I have not as yet heard from this Marvin representative.
	Lastly, I contacted the Distributor's representative who the dealer
had told me, went out to look at the window with him.  He said he had never
heard of me, nor had he gone out to look at the windows, but the dealer had
'mentioned' a problem with one of the windows.  I told him the entire situation
and he was very responsive to my complaints, (and had a decent attitude) but
conceded that Marvin would most likely do nothing about it because, once again,
they don't guarantee the wood that goes into there products.  He said that at
the most, we might get a new seat board out of them, but they would not pay to
have it put in.

	I am disillusioned at Marvin Windows, a company that has such a good
reputation in the building industry, that they would be so, seemingly, uncon-
cerned about the product that they sell.  I would think that they would want
to make sure that dealers and distributors are representing their company fully
and responsibly to the best of their ability.  That customer problems are hand-
led efficiently and correctly, but most importantly, I would think that they
would take repsonsibility for errors in manufacturing.  A $700 French door 
shouldn't have a wane in it.  A $388 window shouldn't have splinters in it, 
and a consumer should expect that little details such as screen clips will line
up properly, and doors will open the way that designs intend them to.  
Nor should any window have a bow in the casing so that the screens can't fit 
in correctly.  In fact, it just shouldn't have a bow in it.  I can find abso-
lutely no justification in the statement, "we can't be responsible for varia-
tions in wood tone".  Wood is their business.  The catalog I ordered from 
doesn't show the bow window with one piece of deep red wood in it.  I can't
imagine Ford, GM, or any other car company shipping out cars with a different
tone of paint on the fender and then using the same excuse.  Nor do I think
anyone would accept it as such.

	I would suggest that you CAREFULLY pick your windows, state that you
will not accept anything that does not look right, and then INSPECT everything
BEFORE it is installed in the house frame, even if you have to take a day off
from work or something to do it.  We now find ourselves in a situation where
we can't continue siding, staining or painting until this problem is straight-
ened out, and I have no idea when that will be.
	I would never, recommend Marvin Windows to anyone.  I wouldn't want
to see anyone else go through the problems we are having and can honestly and
sincerely say that in our opinion, we feel they are a low quality window and
regret purchasing them, and wish we could start all over again.  I am sure that
some will think we are nitpicking, or making an inconvenience even worse, but
since we are building this house ourselves, we want things to look right, and
expect to get what we THINK we are buying, not anything else.  Money is awfully
tight, and for the amount of it that is spent on something as important as win-
dows, I don't think that Marvin, the distributor, or the dealer are holding up
their end.


	Jon

      Beautifully written!  Why not send this note to MARVIN and say
    something to the effect of "In case you would like to review this
    before I send it to the Boston Globe"?  Also sounds like it needs
    to somehow be elevated above the schmucks you've been dealing with.
    
    -Jim
    

  You have indeed had a bad experience and I think Marvin should do what it
  takes to leave you a satisfied customer.  But the fault mostly belongs with
  your dealer and not Marvin.

  Whenever you order a Marvin window or door, you must also tell them the
  thickness of the doorjamb or the window wall.  If you don't provide that
  information, then the dealer should certainly ask for it and not just
  give you the default.  There is no "standard" framing measurement for
  this kind of thing because the wall thickness can be affected by the
  framing, the thickness of sheetrock or skimcoat plastering, whether it
  is an old wall (renovation), etc., etc., etc. So the problem with the
  french door is that it is the wrong size and you shouldn't install it --
  get the right size so that it will open fully.
  
  The splintered bedroom window sounds as though it was damaged in transit.
  Marvin can't control that but somebody (dealer, shipper, or Marvin) should
  certainly accept responsibility.  And it's hard to believe that this has
  never happened before -- there must be a procedure for taking care of it.
  Another question is why did you accept delivery of damaged goods?  It's
  the same with the other (bowed) bedroom windows, though if the builder
  can square them up without too much time/effort, you might want to forget
  about the "not-square" complaint and concentrate on the others.  If the
  builder can't fix it, then Marvin should.
  
  The mullion to cover up the construction blemish seems like a perfectly
  reasonable request, especially since they supply it for a different
  type of window.

  The red board in the bow window seat is a tough one.  I can see your point
  and I can see their point.  One way to approach the problem would be to
  find out whether Marvin lets you specify "clear" wood.  I know that
  Anderson gives that option (at a premium, of course) and if you don't ask
  for clear, you get finger-jointed stuff which is suitable only for painting.
  If Marvin does provide this option, then it's another case of your dealer
  failing to ask the right questions.

  It sounds to me as though you don't have any complaints about the
  quality of the windows at all -- your complaint is about damaged
  shipping and a dealer who didn't ask the right questions. If I were you,
  I'd get hold of a Marvin rep (the more clout he or she has, the better)
  and say something like, "I really like the windows and doors but the
  shipper damaged a number of your fine products and the dealer, through
  ignorance, ordered the wrong items.  I wanted a french door for a
  <mumble>-sized jamb and I wanted the bow window to be made from clear
  stock."

  If you are angry when you go into these negotiations and say stuff like,
  "These windows stink and Marvin is a lousy company," you're not going to
  get nearly as far.  The template for this kind of complaint is:
  
  Step 1: This is what I like about your company or product (even if there
          is *nothing* you like about the company or product, make something
          up)
  
  Step 2: This is what I don't like about the product, the transaction, whatever.

  Step 3: This is what I want you to do about the problem (and be very specific
          here -- you can negotiate away any of your specific demands but you
          can't show up saying "do whatever it takes to make me happy."

  Step 4: This is what I will do if you do what I want (remain a happy customer,
          tell all my friends about it, post the information in a notesfile...)

  Step 5: This is what I will do if you don't do what I want (call the BBB,
          tell all my friends, etc.)

  You may have to repeat steps 3, 4, and 5 over and over until the other
  person believes that this is exactly what you plan to do (so don't make
  any idle or ridiculous threats in step 5, either).

  JP

    Addition to .-1
    
    Forget the BBB - that's a NOP.
    
    Attorney general's office.
    WBZ radio Dave Maynard and call for action.
    Boston Globe
    All your friends - you have a LOT of builder friends.
    Be careful about the notes file - this could open up some legal
      action.  Even though we're clean, it can still be ugly.
    
    .-1 is right about the attitude.  Have you talked to the owner of
    the lumberyard or whereever you bought these.
    Also I've found that talking to the president or owner of a business
    counts more than an employee who doesn't really care about anything
    but his weekly paycheck.  The owner used to be a struggling guy
    who dealt directly with the customer.  He hasn't had the opportunity
    to have that kind of 'fun' for a long time.  He also has a vested
    interest in the outcome.
    
    This is how the Japanese are taking over.  They'd have a crew out
    to replace the window and have the dealer in for lessons in how
    to spec windows.
    
    good luck.

    Did you pay for these windows with a credit card? I think that VISA and
    Master Card will stand by you if you have a "legitimate" complaint
    about a product or service that you purchased using their card. You
    write to the bank informing them of the facts and request that they
    withhold payment of said goods/services, and they will work with
    you to resolve said problems.
    
    Charly

    A friend and I just recently closed on 5 acres of land in Barre,
    Mass. The back 3 1/2 are thickly wooded with a mix of pine, hemlock,
    birch, maple, and others. About 100 ft. into the woods there *was*
    a 50-60 foot pine with a twin trunk. It's now mostly on the ground,
    being chomped on by either carpenter ants or termites, and I do
    mean *chomped*. CRUNCH CRUNCH CRUNCH. I declined to look closely
    to see which it was. I guess they sufficiently weakened the tree
    that it came crashing down, fairly recently, too.  -Tom R.

    re a previous reply
    
    The BBB is not a no-op. I check with them often before using an
    expensive service. Once I had trouble with a product and the BBB
    negotiated a replacement for me (kept it out of court).
    
    So please do not write them off.
    
    Marty
    

    That's the first I;ve heard of the BBB doing anything other relating
    the number of complaints they've had with a particular business.
    
    Where is this that you've had success ??

    
    	I have had no success with the BBB. When I asked what happens
    when I register a complaint they said they record it and give it
    to people that request info on a particular company. If they get
    enough complaints they hand it off to the Attorny Generals office.
    

    My memory is a bit dim on this, but I had trouble with some
    carpeting. The owner was a terrible person to deal with, and he
    refused to come and look at the problem because one night he "couldn't
    find my house" (I saw him drive by and all my lights were on). Anyway,
    I was all prepared for legal action but I called the BBB just to
    see what they could do. 
    
    They sent certified letters to both of us asking for a description
    of the problem, and offering a mediation. The situation got rather
    tense but I think when he saw that I was serious he backed down.
    I wound up having a new carpet installed for free.
    
    The BBB I used in this case was in Worcester. The thing I'm not
    sure about is whether it was the BBB directly that did all this or
    whether they referred it to another group. In any event I was pleased
    with the outcome.
    
    One other thing. Once I had a guy come over for an estimate on a
    security system. I mentioned to him that I had checked his BBB record
    and it was clean, and that was the only reason I had him come over.
    He couldn't believe I checked him out, and he was visibly shaken
    by it. I wouldn't be surprised if he had some problem before that
    had been resolved, and he was still worried about it.
    
    Although the BBB might not go after those bad guys with a meat cleaver
    as you would often like them to, they still perform a useful function,
    in my opinion.
    
    Marty

    re .4  on getting hold of higher ups at Marvin and handling the
    problem in a reasonable manner: THANK YOU! I'm getting G*D**Med
    tired of seeing everone and his brother jump for the media or the
    lawyer every d**ned time they have a problem with someone - no wonder
    everyone thinks contractors and manufactures are crooks and
    incompetants. I'm in the final stages of putting a huge addition
    on my house, and I've had so few problems that I cannot believe
    it is a coincidence; whenever something came up we (we=me and whoever
    the other party was) talked it over.  I got satisfaction every time.
     If you jump un and down and say "I'LL SUE YOUR ASS" every time
    you have a problem, you get nothing except more frustration.  If
    you say 'LET'S WORK THIS OUT" then it gets worked out.
    
    The other this .4 points out is the source of the problem - it is
    not necessarily Marvin, but the dealer.  I bought Pella windows
    from a Pella distributor, and the outfit was a bunch of breathing
    veggies - but when I call the regional office and went over the
    problems, then everything got fixed up - they ended up closing down
    that distributor a couple of months later, hopefully because other
    complained as well.
    
    [stepping down from my soapbox now]
    -reed
    

    FWIW,
    
    I also agree with .4. It's easy to point the finger at Marvin and
    say their stuff is trash. But if this was true, they would more
    than likely be out of business by now given the competitiveness of 
    the window industry.

    Like anything else, nothing is perfect all the time. The real question
    is 'How does their product fair over a larger statistical sample?'
    I'll bet there are even dissatisfied Mercedes owners ;). So.....
    To offer another man's unbiased opinion, I also outfitted my new
    house with Marvin windows all around. 15 double-hungs and 4 casements.
    All came through flawless, and even my framer, who had really nothing
    to gain by his comment [seeing as he had already pocketed 90% of
    what I owed him], said that they were the nicest windows he had
    seen.
    
    If I had it to do over again, I would still go with Marvin. Like
    I said....FWIW.
    
    Charlie

    
    	The BBB is simply a reporting bureau.  The Atourney General
    	is "too busy to help you"...
    
    	I am in the process of building a house and have had more
    	than my share of problems.  This may sound cynical but
    	I hope some of these guys starve when bad times come.  The
    	basic problem is that most contractors/suppliers are just
    	too busy to deal with problems, they just don't care.
    
    	I had several problems with the window company I dealt
    	with, New England Eagle Products.  To make a long story
    	somewhat short, they made promises they could not keep,
    	the salesman out and out lied to me, they shipped the
    	wrong windows, they shipped defective french doors, sold
    	me a sun room they didn't know how to install, sold me
    	skylights with defective flashing, I'm still waiting for
    	some glass and trim, waiting for months.  This has caused
    	delays, money and frustration. 
    
    	The only recourse one has is money, don't pay it until
    	you are satisfied and get what you paid for.  Never prepay!
    	
    	I am thinking of starting a note to relate all my building
    	experiances, both good and bad, that is, if anyone cares
    	to hear them.
    
    	Tony/

    During my home inspection, I was told that my basement window frames
    are too close to the ground.  They are 1-2" from the grass/soil.
    SInce they are supposed to be 6" to avoid excess moisture and termites,
    I was instructed to install window wells.
    
    The only kind of window wells I've ever seen are the ones that look
    like a piece of corrugated pipe.  What other methods are there,
    and where are the materials available?
    
    Thanks.
    
    Elaine

    Use rail ties or 4X6 pressure treated wood to make a three sided
    frame. Evacuate an area around the window to a depth of 8" or more.
    Treat the soil with round-up soil sterlizer to ensure that weeds
    or plants will not grow. Lay about a sheet or two of heavy gauge
    vynl sheeting on the soil. Install the frame and add pea gravel to the
    top of the sheeting.
    
    The pressure treated wood has a rot/bug treatment that is rot and
    bug proof. DO NOT burn the scraps, it's posionous [so I understand].
    
    /cal

    You can also buy dome shaped covers that prevent rain and runoff
    from the roof from getting in the well.
    
    Clay

    I had a similiar problem with a dinning room table I purchased.
    It was a Pennsylvania House solid oak table. We paid approx
    $1,000 for the table and when it arrived it had scorch markes in
    one of the peices used on the top. The Mfg rep. came and said it
    was due to variations in the wood. We said that none of the display
    models that we had seen at several furniture stores had these
    marks and that we didn't want or intend to buy a table with these
    obvious marks (our perception) smack in the middle of the table.
    
    The rep stuck to his story untill we showed him photographs that
    we had developed, that really highlited the  er..defect/variation.
    The photo's really backed us up.
    
    With photo's we could file a complaint with the Attorney General's
    office with evidence.
    
    A month latter we were sent a new table.

    re: .13
    
    The rep was trying to shaft you.  There are variations in the wood
    and then there are DEFECTS.  Furniture with such obvious defects
    are usually sold as seconds.  Then you get into real subjective
    territory with drawing the line between defects and variations.
    Some wood is gauged, waned and warped!  Are these also variations?
    Depends if your buying or selling I guess.  Sometimes you just have
    to stick to your guns and go to the mat with these "reps".  I'm glad
    you got what you deserved (and payed for).

    
    I have to replace a section of glass in a wooden door, and also
    in a window paine.  Does anyone know how this is done?
    
    						- Ted

RE:1482.0 
    
>    I have to replace a section of glass in a wooden door, and also
>    in a window paine.  Does anyone know how this is done?
    
	Hi Ted-
		Are the panes of glass glazed into the cavity, i.e. putty
	around the edges.  Or is there a wooden piece of molding around the
	edges?

    Here in Colorado they wont sell you regular glass if you tell them
    its for a door. They will either push plexiglas or tempered glass
    for the job. Tempered glass is almost impossible to cut with regular
    tools and the plexi scraches from a sneeze.
    
    -j
    
    

I need some custom glass.  To be exact, I'm looking for a pair of trapazoidal
windows about 8 feet wide at the base, 6 feet high on one side and around 2
feet wide on the other.  I know that folks like Andersen, Marvin, etc will do
custom windows.  In fact, for my specifications it's only a little over $2k
each!!!

So, I have a couple of options including making the openings smaller and looking
for other sources.  The problem is I want then to match the rest of the windows.
It turns out that Andersen (and probably the others as well), will sell you 
molding kits to make your own trim.  Essentially, you go to a glass shop and
order some custom glass made up.  Then all you need to do is put on your own
trim, presumably saves big $$$'s.  My question is has anybody ever done this?

As a related question, does anyone have any idea how much a hunk of glass this
size would weigh?  I'm betting it would be in the hundreds of pounds which would
then lead to the question of how the hell do you get the damn thing in?

-mark

    Well, having just completed refurbishing a bunch of storms last
    fall....
    
    Let's see, the situation usually looks something like this:
    
                Putty or moulding                Wood Frame
                    /                                |
    _____________  /        Glass            _____________
    |           |\            |             /|           |
    |           |_\________________________/_|           |
    |           |=====------------------=====|           |
    |________________|                  |________________|

    The glass is sitting on a ledge of the wood frame, held in by putty
    (glazing compound) and/or moulding, and (probably) glaziers points.
    
    Pry off the moulding and/or chisel out the putty holding the glass
    in place (I've seen special tools that fit in your drill to remove
    putty, but never tried one - anybody?).  The glaziers points are
    little squares of thin metal that lie flat on the glass with a point
    jammed into the wood frame - I'm not going to try an illustration.
    You have to persuade them out of the wood - it usually isn't that
    hard.
    
    Pop the glass out of the frame and clean the channel out, there
    is normally some glazing compound on the inside of the channel that
    glass was bedded down in to seal it before the glaziers points and
    the putty bead or moulding was put in.
    
    To reinstall, you smear a thin layer of glaziers compound in the
    bottom of the channel (the glaziers compound tends to be kind of
    stiff when you get it from the can - you have to knead it a little
    before it is pliable enough to use).  Set the new pane in place
    and press carefully around the edges to bed it down in the compound.
    
    Slide new points in place to hold it.  You don't need a lot - for
    a regular window pane a couple along each edge is fine.  Then you
    either put in new moulding or a new putty strip.  Getting a nice,
    even bead of putty takes a little practice, and there is a cute
    little tool put out by Red Devil that helps - ask your local hardware
    store.
    
    Oh yeah, if the wood is dry, like in an old window - paint it with
    a little linseed oil a day or so before you put in the new pane.
    Make sure your new panes are cut just a little smaller than the
    opening they fit in (but wider than the ledge, of course).  I forget
    the exact amount, but 1/8 inch smaller comes to mind - allow for
    the differing expansion and contraction characteristics of wood
    and glass.
    
    /Dave
    

When we built our house, we put in a LOT of large glass panes.  The solarium 
has 14 4'x8' insulated panes, in two rows of 7 (Toasty warm in the winter sun)
They were relatively easy for two people to move around, so don't worry about 
that too much.  Besides, that's going to be the same wherever you get them 
made.

As far as the glass, go directly to Lappe Plate Glass on Rt 101a in Nashua.  
They were MUCH cheaper than other glass places we went, and they carry at least 
a 5 year guarantee.  I think the 4x8 panels were somewhere between $150 and 
$200 delivered.  Your's may be more because of the shape, and delivery may be 
more because you're only ordering 2 panels and I don't know where you live.  
But it may very well be cheaper to buy them there even if they are far away and 
paying the delivery cost than buying them close to home.

Oh, and by the way, ask for Bert. 

Paul

    Re: .3
    
    Yup.  I'd only add, paint the glazing compound after it's had a
    week or two to harden up a little, and it will last a lot longer.
    Ideally, when you paint you want to get just a LITTLE paint on 
    the glass to give a good seal.  I'm not in favor of painting, then
    scraping the glass with a razor blade, because it breaks that seal.
    
    Go easy on the glazing compound; you don't have to go out on the
    glass too far.  This depends in part on the width of the channel 
    the glass is sitting on; basically, aim to make the glazing compound 
    go out onto the glass about the same amount as the wood does on the 
    other side.  In my experience this usually means holding the putty
    knife more vertical, so the angle from the vertical is somewhat
    less than 45 degrees.
    

    All good info in the earlier replies.  I'll add a few concerning
    one of my least favorite jobs.
    
    If you're replacing a broken paine on a window that is removed from
    the track, Place the window over a large box, cover the window with
    a couple of layers of newspaper and tap out the rest of the broken
    glass with a hammer.  Hopefully this will also loosen up some of
    the old putty.
    
    Needlenose pliers come in handy to remove the glazier points.
    
    The old putty can be a bear to remove.  I've used a propane torch
    with an iron tip to soften it.  You have to be careful not to burn
    the paint on the window though.  Electric soldering irons can also
    be used.  I've also used a rasp attachment for drills.
    
    Getting a nice finish on the putty can be frustrating.  3M sells
    some window caulking that you roll into the window.  You can get
    it on sale a lot of times.  Roll it in, trim it and paint it
    immediately.  I've got some but haven't used it yet.
    
    Phil
    

	When I added on to my house, I used Anderson's frames to build two
trapazoidal windows for the gable end of the room.  They came out quite well.  
Here's the story:

	The shape I wanted was:

				 	 __
				        / |
				      /   |
				    /     |
				  /       |
			       	/         |
			       	|         |
		 	  ^	|	  |		Not to Scale
		        / |	|	  |
		      /   |	|	  |
		    /     |	|	  |
		  /       |	|	  |
	       	/     A   |	|    B    |
	       	|         |	|	  |
	       	-----------	----------
		|	  |	|	  |
		|     C   |	|    C    |
		|	  |	|	  |
		-----@-----	-----@-----


	The angle of the windows "A"and "B" matched the roofline in the
cathedral ceiling.  Windows "C" were standard Anderson crank-out casements 
which I wanted for ventilation purposes.  I ordered the thermpane glass 
inserts through my lumberyard and they were not expensive-- about $60 for the
two (approx 2.5' wide by 5' tall on the large one).  The Anderson frames I used 
were vinylclad wood and pretty easy to work with.  I cut them on my 10" table 
saw.  I can get the exact cost on them if you want but I believe they ran about
&10 a foot.  (This was two years ago so my memory may be faulty).  At the time
the total cost of the windows seemed pretty reasonable compared to what a
custom house would have charged me.

	BTW, the frames came complete with custom corner fasteners, silicon
sealant strips, mullions and mounting flanges identical to the the ones used to
install their standard windows.  The flanges simply slid into grooves in the
sides of the frames. 

	For assembly, I found a band clamp to be indispensable!

	Good luck and if you any questions about details, feel free to contact
me directly or through Notes. 

							--Mike

    I have a window that was painted shut.  I can finally open and close
    the window, but with great difficulty.  How do I get it to open
    and close easily?  The window is the old-fashioned kind, with a
    thick wooden frame.
    

    This always works for me:
    
    
    Run a bar of soap along all of the gliding edges of the window.
    (if it's double hung, this means you have to do this 8 times, 4
    on each side, 2 for top, 2 for bottom window)  Then  work the window
    a few times and all is well.
    
    If that doesn't work, then you probably will have to take off the
    trim that holds the window in and scrape the paint off of it.
    
    
    -bill

That's great to here.  I just called Lappe glass (thanks to Paul) and they gave
me a price of around $500 which is a hell of a lot cheaper than a custom made
unit.

Are you saying that the molding kit goes onto the glass before intalling it
rather than around it after you install it?  If so, that's great too.  My only
fear is that on a chunk of glass the size I'm using, I don't want the sucker to
fall out in a couple of years and need to have it VERY secure.

-mark

>Are you saying that the molding kit goes onto the glass before intalling it
>rather than around it after you install it?  If so, that's great too.  My only
>fear is that on a chunk of glass the size I'm using, I don't want the sucker to
>fall out in a couple of years and need to have it VERY secure.

	If I understand the first question correctly, the answer is yes.  But
maybe if I clarify a little it will help.  What I built were two complete,
separate windows.  When they were done, they were finished windows that
installed exactly the same way standard off-the-shelf windows do.  After I
assembled the frames, the glass sections were dropped in place and secured with
wooden retaining strips (what I referred to as mullions).  The window was then
nailed into the rough opening.

	Essentially, they were Anderson windows that I put together for them!

							--Mike

	You could try painting the wood with linseed oil.  I'm told
	doing this every year for a few decades makes the windows
	slide like a wet duck on a banana peel, or whatever it is.

	I once dealt with a bunch of windows only 50 years old.  Taking
	some care to avoid breaking the wood pieces and making sure
	they fit together properly can give you beautiful windows.  The
	wood in my windows was dry and brittle, but careful sanding to
	remove the paint "burrs", cleaning, and oiling made them
	useable.

	The side boards in the casement were screwed on.  Of course,
	the screws were gobbed with paint.  I touched a soldering gun
	to the half-buried screw heads to soften the paint.

	Regards, Robert.

	

    Great Info, Thanks. I have a question when replacing storm windows,
    When it isn't wood but a metal fram and moulding.
    
    
>    Slide new points in place to hold it.  You don't need a lot - for
>    a regular window pane a couple along each edge is fine.  Then you
>    either put in new moulding or a new putty strip.  Getting a nice,
>    even bead of putty takes a little practice, and there is a cute
>    little tool put out by Red Devil that helps - ask your local hardware
>    store.
    

    How do you replace a moulding?    

    Linda
        

RE:1482.3 

	Daves reply was one of the best I've seen on window glazing, I'd
	like to just add my experience as an old house owner.

	My house was built in 1929 and I've seen many different techniques
	to window glazing in my house :-}, This simply has to be one of the
	worst DIY jobs there is, next to plumbing of course (in an old house,
	plastic don't count :-)

	So to add my $.02:    

>    The glass is sitting on a ledge of the wood frame, held in by putty
>    (glazing compound) and/or moulding, and (probably) glaziers points.
    
	Old timers also used a very thin strip of glass along the edge between
	the pane and the frame instead of glaziers points sometimes in addition
	to them.  Watch out for these a royal pain.

>    putty, but never tried one - anybody?).  The glaziers points are
>    little squares of thin metal that lie flat on the glass with a point
>    jammed into the wood frame - I'm not going to try an illustration.
    
	Also came in a triangular 3/8" on a side version and today you can buy
	what is called a push-in glazier point kind of oval in shape with 
	a perpendicular ridge for you to push against with a screwdriver or
	putty knife and to act as a stop for correct depth, these work real 
	nice.

>    To reinstall, you smear a thin layer of glaziers compound in the
>    bottom of the channel (the glaziers compound tends to be kind of
>    stiff when you get it from the can - you have to knead it a little
>    before it is pliable enough to use).  Set the new pane in place
>    and press carefully around the edges to bed it down in the compound.
    
	A trick I have found helpful here is instead of forming the bedding
	with glazing compound use a silicone type caulk.  It's much easier
	to work with during and easier to cut after, it will also take more
	abuse.

>    little tool put out by Red Devil that helps - ask your local hardware
>    store.
    
	Hyde tools also makes one that is a little more rigid, I have two
	and highly recommend the Hyde version.  Don't be discouraged at 
	first it takes a little practice, once you get the hang of it you
	can really fly along.

>    Oh yeah, if the wood is dry, like in an old window - paint it with
>    a little linseed oil a day or so before you put in the new pane.

	Or you can just paint it with primer.

>    Make sure your new panes are cut just a little smaller than the
>    opening they fit in (but wider than the ledge, of course).  I forget
>    the exact amount, but 1/8 inch smaller comes to mind - allow for
>    the differing expansion and contraction characteristics of wood
>    and glass.
    
	Probably one of the most important things here, make sure there is 
	some room for the window to move side to side a did a 6 lite window
	one night only to find two broken panes the next morning, sure enough
	the two panes that fit very tight the night before.

	Happy Glazing (Isn't that a contradiction :-) Randy

    RE: .6
    
    I've never done a window with moulding, but I would guess:
    
    Pry off the moulding VERY carefully; you'll bash it up a little
    the best you can do, but try to minimize the damage.  This may
    be a real problem, because the ends are no doubt mitered, and
    nothing will want to come out.  You may need to seriously abuse
    the first piece to get it out.  
    I'm assuming the removable moulding is on the "inside" side of the
    window.  I suspect the glass is bedded in a thin layer of putty,
    to provide a weather seal on the outside.  You'll want to scrape
    that out, put in fresh, and put in the glass.  You won't need
    glazier's points.  Put the moulding back, and I'd paint the outside
    of the window, going onto the glass SLIGHTLTY to provide a weather
    seal as mentioned earlier.  Also paint the inside, same way.
    All this is conjecture; probably the best thing for you to do is
    to take one apart, see how it was done originally, and duplicate
    the process when you put in the new glass.  The real killer is
    probably going to be getting the moulding out without butchering
    it, but even if you do don't despair, you can probably buy new 
    moulding at the lumberyard... :-)
    

    re .8:
    
    I did have some windows with moulding in a kitchen door.  I should
    have mentioned the part about scheduling the work on Saturday morning
    with good weather so you have time to take the broken first piece
    to the lumber yard and get some replacement moulding.
    
    Using a VERY stiff putty knife to start prying works pretty good,
    but you will probably wind up breaking the first piece unless it
    was only lightly tacked in place.
    
    /Dave
    
    

  

      >	Essentially, they were Anderson windows that I put together for them!

		

    
    
    Does one purchase a "kit" in order to build these windows?  and....
    if so, would a lumber yard be the place to obtain said kit?
    
    
    

    
>    Does one purchase a "kit" in order to build these windows?  and....
>    if so, would a lumber yard be the place to obtain said kit?
    
 	I wouldn't classify it as a "kit", as in opening a box and all the
pieces tumble out for assembly.  It's more like; buy the raw materials (10'
lengths of vinylclad framing), figure the angles you want to cut, cut them,
assemble the pieces, insert and seal glass, attach mounting flanges, install
completed unit.

	I purchased my materials at Chairtown Lumber, Gardner MA but I'm sure
that any yard that carries Anderson windows will be able to get it for you.
Chairtown also handled my double-paned glazing material but you may be able to
(or forced to) find a glazier on your own.

							--Mike
    

Hello and help.

15 months ago I naively accepted a low bid to put an addition on to my home.
I am entirely satisfied with the work that they did but they mickey-moused
me on doors and windows and I was too green at this to realize it until
later.  I should add that they were $3000 lower than the next highest bid.

Anyway, I have a 20 X 12 foot addition that is insulated fully that has
nothing on the windows but single pane storms.  I need to get 11 double
paned thermal windows put in these window frames so that I can enjoy this
room throughout the winter.  
                                       
The windows average about 30 X 64 inches.  I called the same contractor
to see what he would say about this.  I gave him the measurements and he
called back tonight.  He claims that 5 of the windows are an odd size and
he cannot get windows to fit the frame.  He maintains that he will have
to reduce the size of the frames to fit the windows he can get!  This sounds
extremely crackbrained to me.  Instead of getting windows to fit the frames
he wants to fit the frames to the windows!  

His prices:

$1362		windows

$ 250		Plywood for making runners for the windows (the interior
		of the frame is smooth and the windows must slide up and
		down on something)

$1600           labor
______
$ 3212

The price on the windows sounds good.  After reading some of the other notes
in this conference tonight I realize that I need to find out what type of
window he plans to use.  The labor includes dry wall work that will have
to be done after he reduces the size of the frames.

Is this a crackbrained scheme or not?

/MGA

    No, it's not quite crackbrained. Ususally the frame needs to be
    designed to fit a standard window size.  The alternative is to build
    custom windows - $$$$$$$$$$$$$$.
    
    The question is where did the windows you have now come from?  You
    say that he has plywood for the windows to slide on??  I build a
    rough opening for a window, go to the lumber yard and buy a window
    that drops in which has its own 'slider' built in.  In other words
    there are two windows, ususally, either one on top of the other
    or beside one another.  I believe it's called double mullion.  If
    that's the type of window you're looking for.  For that size window,
    a quality double paned, screen, alum clad (no paint outside), with
    pop-in grills would run about $230-$250 each at Rivco in Nashua.
    
    Hope this helps.  I'd go talk to some window dealers yourself.

    
    
    	You can also have windows made to exact measurments like I did.
    I replaced some windows and had new ones made to the exact size
    as I requested. As far as I know, any company will make special
    orders. I did not notice a big price tag either as opposed to standard
    sizes.
    
    	-Steve-
    

Re: .0

My question is why did the idiot make odd sized windows???  To make himself
more money???  Thrash him!

Jim.

    What are the rough opening sizes?  I just spent several months
    researching windows (part-time, of course) and will help by going
    through the literature I have to see if standards are available
    from one of the major companies.
    
    Also, what kind of windows do you want?  Casement, double-hung,
    awning, fixed, etc.?
    
    Pete

    We have a 13 year old house in Colorado Springs with single pane
    glass. We added inside storm windows on nylon tracks and plastic
    frames around the glass, custom cut to the size of the old windows.
    The outside widows, we added a 3M solar film that passes light
    and reflects the ultraviolet and infrared [I believe]. Cost $2000
    for a 17000 sq ft house.
    
    /cal

I have a door to do soon also, I was thinking of breaking the window pane out
the rest of the way and then prying the moulding straight out from behind to
preserve it hopefully without damage that sandpaper and paint wouldn't fix.

I'm concerned that though I might find the same shape the dimensions have 
changed over the past 50 years ;-)

What do you guys think, I've only dealt with putty style windows before?

Concrete window  wells are fairly common on  older  homes.  It's
probably possible to get precast ones or you can pour  your own.
Just  leave the bottom open  for drainage.  Gravel in the bottom
of the well will keep dirt from splashing up onto the windows.

R.

    For that kind of money, think about aluminum combination storm windows
    for the outside.  They aren't great, but they do work and they are
    always custom-made to whatever measurements you give them so oddball
    sizes don't matter.  Cost ought to be around $50/window, I'd guess.

    With Marvin offering "1500 standard sizes" is there really a standard
    window?  I would imagine you could find something relatively close
    to what you need in a "standard" window.  Is the outside of the
    addition sided yet?  It's no big deal to fill in the excess with
    plywood if it isn't.  Otherwise the siding has to be dealt with
    also.  More info would help.

re:-1

just remember that Marvin's 1500 sizes are really made up out of "n" 
combinations of less than 100 sizes.  but even at that, there are still a lot
of choices.

However, don't get your hopes up too high.  I framed my addition for Andersen
windows and am now thinking about other vendors.  Most companies have windows
close in size to what I want, but in many cases they're anything from 1/2" to
5 inches too small in one or more dimensions.  In new construction that's no
problem because you can fill in the gaps with more siding.  With existing
construction if it doesn't fit exact, you're in trouble.

-mark

    The current (newsstand) issue of Popular Mechanics or Mechanics
    Illustrated (don't remember which but it's one of those) has an
    article on how to do this.
    
    Pete

    TRY YOUR LOCAL LUMBER YARD AND CHECK THERE BROSCO CATALOG.
    ALSO CHECK WITH HARVEY INDUSTRIES IN SALEM N.H. 893-1611 THEY HAVE
    HARVEY, HARVEY/KOMCRAFT VINYL REPLACEMENT WINDOWS THAT ARE CUSTOM
    MADE TO YOUR SIZE REQUIREMENTS. HARVEY IS WHOLESALE ONLY SO MAKE
    LIKE YOUR A HOME REMODELING CONTRACTOR. I HAVE INSTALLED THESE AND
    THEY ARE A NICE UNIT.

    Well, you could put the plate down on the floor and watch it;
    I rather doubt they're materializing out of thin air. If you
    can identify a "supply line" you might have some idea where they
    congregate and try placing some ant traps to see if they like
    them as much as they like dessert.
    
    The problem with ant traps is it takes so much dexterity to put
    that TINY little piece of cheese in it and set that TINY little
    spring...

    Those little reddish-brown ants are harmless to your home and
    to humans and pets, but they are a nuisance.  They go for grease
    and sweets.  Eliminate the food sources.
    
    If you follow the little critters' trail across the rug, you
    should eventually find their home.  Blast 'em.
    
    pbm
    

I pored over quite a few of the window notes and didn't find anything 
addressing my question. If I missed it, please steer me in the right 
direction and I'll delete this note.

Are there reasons other than aesthetics for choosing casement windows 
over double hung? 

We are choosing materials, etc., for building a Sawmill River Post and
Beam house. Their package comes with either casement or double hung
for virtually the same price. 

We like the looks of double hung windows on the traditional exterior 
of the house, but are we missing some important reason for not using 
casements?

Thanks.

John H.

    Last year we replaced our casement windows (single pane - metal
    frame) with vinyl sliding windows.  Our house is well situated
    and we get good cross ventilation.  However, if your house is
    situated so that you get very little air circulation when the
    windows are open you may prefer casements since they tend to
    act as air scoops to bring in outside air.
    
    Evelyn

    Casement windows actually seal better than double hung.  That is
    because the gasket/weatherstrip system works much in the same manner as a
    refrigerator door.  For double hung, you cannot have the seal as tight
    since you have sliding parts.  The newer double hungs have this
    "pop-out-for-cleaning" system which makes the seal even worse.
    
    The only problem with casement windows is you have to get special
    window air conditioners for them.
    
    -al

>               For double hung, you cannot have the seal as tight
>    since you have sliding parts.  The newer double hungs have this
>    "pop-out-for-cleaning" system which makes the seal even worse.

The newer double-hungs also have double locks which makes the seal
better.  So it's probably a wash.  (I'll bet you thought the locks were
to keep thieves and villians out, huh?)  But you're right, fewer seams 
mean fewer air leaks, and so casements are tighter than double-hung.

On the whole, if your house will still look good with casements, I'd go 
with them.  Being able to use the whole window area for ventilation is 
great, and as stated, the seal is better than double-hung.  But there is 
nothing worse than a traditional-style house with casement windows -- 
yecch!    

					>>>==>PStJTT

We just replaced 28 windows in a 120 year old house with Duo-Therm 
replacement windows bought through Maki Home Center in Fitchburg MA.
They are double-pane, low-E glass, grills between panes, foam-filled 
frame and come with aluminum half-screens.  They were about $180 per 
window.  That seemed a very good price for them, though we didn't search 
exhaustively. (It's getting cold out there.)  The windows took about two 
weeks to come in.  For an extra charge, Maki will send someone to take 
the measurements so they eat any mis-measured windows. (I think of it as 
"measuring insurance.")

If you go to have a look, ask for Dan Kelly.  He also moonlights
installing them at $25 per window. (It wasn't the kind of thing I wanted
to do.) He and his partner show up on time, work pretty close to
schedule and do a good job.  They even cleaned up the wreckage when they
were done. (They don't haul the old sashes away, but they do stack them
neatly where you tell them to.) 

I'm very happy with the windows and the installation job.  The usual 
disclaimers apply (I'm not getting anything for recommending him, I'm 
not connected to Maki's other than as a customer, I don't make any 
personal garantees.)

The house is warmer, comes up to temp faster when the heat kicks in, and 
it's so *quiet* now...  The windows retain the character of the place, 
and none of the inside or outside moulding is affected (except for chips 
and scrapes where the interior window stops had to be dug out from under 
100 years of paint -- easy to fix.)  The biggest plus in my opinion is 
that now if we open a window, it stays open and doesn't come crashing 
down after a random period of time.
					>>>==>PStJTT

Think about how the casement windows will stick out when fully open.  Will
they interfere with outdoor foot traffic, or with furniture placement on a
porch or deck?  Will they represent a head-klunking hazard for somebody 
working in a flowerbed (and standing up without looking)?

If the house is L-shaped, poorly positioned windows (and doors) could 
prevent each other from opening fully.

    A big problem with casements is that you have to close them all
    the way if it's raining or the rain will come in.  With double
    hung, you can have them open a couple inches.  
    

    That's why I went with Andersen ventilating picture windows, which
    are actually LARGE awning windows.  Best seal and no problem when
    it rains.
    
    Pete

    Personally, I'm not too impressed with casement windows; I've found
    that over the years they tend to get to be hard to close as the
    wood weathers, the house settles, etc.  I never open the ones in
    my kitchen anymore, not since I had to go get a stepladder and
    push them shut from the outside.  (They're about 18 years old now).
    
    Maybe I've just had bad luck.

    I agree with 1617.7, the casement windows eventually get harder to 
    close due to weather abuse and house settlement.
    
    One advantage though; I would of prefered a casement window over
    my kitchen sink as oppose to the double hung because it's easier
    to open.  Bending over the sink and lifting at the same time is
    obviously more difficult than turning the crank.
    
    Chip

    re: .18 
    
    Sure. That's why MOST new houses use casement window in the kitchen.
    Not only its easier to open, but also provide better ventilation.
    I also agree with some previous notes that it may look funny if
    the whole house has all casement windows and if they all open up.
    

           My windows have suddenly developed a very bad case of
    condensation. The problem is happening to all the windows of the
    house, though some seem to be worse than others. I noticed the problem
    during the last few cold days when the temperature goes below 50.
    I have lived in house for 10 years and never had this problem. In
    August, cedar siding and a vapor barrier, Tyvack (sp?), were put
    on. 
     Does anyone have any suggestions as to how solve this problem.
    I am very concerned about ice and associated damage to the sills
    during the winter.
    
    
                    Thanks,
    

    With the rain lately, have you used a dehumidifier at all?  I've
    had the same problem lately, but, it'a almost time to fire-up the
    woodstove.  After that, bye-bye high humidity.

I had the same problem in my new-to-me house.  The house has 
single-pane casement windows, and the strange part was that the 
windows that could open had a lot more condensation than the window 
that were sealed shut.  I noticed that the windows didn't close 
completely, creating a small draft on the inside of the window pane.  
In cold mornings - the cold air cooled the pane so that all the 
moisture in the house tried to condense on the pane. 

The fix, for me, was to run foam weather stripping around the outer 
side of the window frame, so that the windows closed tight.  So far 
(only 1 or 2 cold morning since I did this) this has made a tremendous 
difference - there is almost no condensation left.

Basically - water condenses on cold surfaces (windows, window frames, 
water pipes, etc) you have to find out why the surface is cold, and 
correct it if possible

hope this helps
/j

    
    I have an old 35X90" bay window that needs to be replaced.  I'd like to
    replace it with another window but of better quality ( double
    pain and crank opening).  The replacement does not have to
    be a bay or bow; I'd like to take the least expensive route. 
    
    I called Sears to get a quick estimate of how much a replacement
    would cost.  They said about $3,500 including labor.  I could not
    believe this price!  A better quality window of that size should
    cost about $600 and should only take a half of a day to install.

    Does anyone have an idea who I should call for another estimate? 
    I've tried many in the phone book but they all seem to install
    vinyl replacement windows but not for bays, bows, or picture windows.  
    
    thanks, ted. 

    $600 and a half a day to install!?!?!?!  HAH!  That's what I said
    too!  Mine was a 5-pane Marvin Bow unit roughly 48"x90" and cost
    over $1100. It had low-E glass.  Remember, that when replacing there
    is a certain amount (in my case a lot) of demolition inside and
    out to take care of.  $3500 sounds a bit steep, though.

    Sears has to make a profit right.  Sears is the last place you want
    to go for this type of work.  Check with your local contractors.

    
    My bow window needs replacing too and I got a price of of $1500
    dollars, labor included. This seems to be a reasonable price.
    The window we want to put in is a bow window with insulating glass
    and crankout windows. As .1 said, there is always some demolition
    involved when replacing a window like this. NOTHING is easy.
                                         

    Let me give you an idea of what was involved when we put my bow
    unit in.  The window was pretty much the entire front wall of the
    living room.  Less than a foot on either side, the header at the
    top, and less than 2 feet at the bottom.  The previous window leaked
    and had caused water damage to the plaster and some sheathing. 
    Bottom line was that *all* of the plaster on that wall had to be
    taken down.
    
    The old window had to be removed.  Took a little while so as not
    to break the thing.  The new window was smaller than the old window
    so a new rough opening had to be framed and sheathing added.  Now
    the instructions for my Marvin bow unit gave detailed instructions
    of the platform that had to be constructed *before* the window was
    put in.  In all of the bow units I've seen, none have had the platform
    under them.  I built the platform after the window was in.  Time
    consuming!
    
    Now time to put everything back together again!  The exterior siding
    is shingles so to put them up the way they are supposed to be, many
    of the old shingles had to be removed, replaced and painted.  Then
    there's the inside to be re-insulated, re-sheetrocked and painted.
    
    There is *much* more to this project than meets the eye!  To take
    the old window out and put the new window in, you should have at
    least 4 people there, 1 on the inside and 3 to lift the window.
    
    Good luck!
    
    Phil

>The fix, for me, was to run foam weather stripping around the outer 
>side of the window frame, so that the windows closed tight.  So far 
>(only 1 or 2 cold morning since I did this) this has made a tremendous 
>difference - there is almost no condensation left.

Teach me to speak too soon - now that the morning are colder, I'm 
practically back to where I started - some windows have water running 
onto the sill..   HELP


I have single-pane casement windows, and not the $$$ to replace them.  
Any suggestions to decrease the condensation on said windows will be 
truly appreciated.  thanx/j

                Also having the older metal casemnet windows, I have
        found only three solutions. 
                
                1. Keep your house unacceptably dry (humidity below
        25%). This can be very tricky to do now that we have sealed up
        the houses so much. Also, low humidity is bad for both you and
        your furniture (and probably the house too).
                
                2. Keep the cold air away form the outside of the
        window. This is the one I chose and I accomplish it by putting a
        layer of clear poly over the outside frame of the window
        creating a dead air space of about 3 inches. If you buy the
        right poly, the view is only slightly distorted. If you buy the
        wrong stuff, you can't see enough through it to tell that there
        is an outside.
                
                3. Replace the windows with wooden ones like Andersons
        (these still require the outside storms, but the window is made
        for a piece of glass that will stay with the window all the
        time). I am in the process of slowly doing this. (It ain't
        cheap!)
                
                /s/     Bob

Thanx for the comments...
>                
>                2. Keep the cold air away form the outside of the
>        window. This is the one I chose and I accomplish it by putting a
>        layer of clear poly over the outside frame of the window
>        creating a dead air space of about 3 inches. If you buy the
>        right poly, the view is only slightly distorted. If you buy the
>        wrong stuff, you can't see enough through it to tell that there
>        is an outside.

So what is the 'right stuff" and where do I get it?
                
>                3. Replace the windows with wooden ones like Andersons
>        (these still require the outside storms, but the window is made
>        for a piece of glass that will stay with the window all the
>        time). I am in the process of slowly doing this. (It ain't
>        cheap!)
                
the 2 window dealers I talked to recommended metal frame replacements 
- why do you specify wood?

thanx	/j

                I got the right stuff last year at State Lumber in
        Framingham. I went looking for it this weekend, and they didn't
        have any. The "manager?" said that he knew what I was talking
        about and would order some and that he would expect it in
        sometime this week. I hope he's right! I don't remember a brand
        name and you will need a good staple gun and some strips of wood
        to hold it on.
                
                As for the wood vs. metal - I happen to like wood and it
        is capable of lasting for a long time with proper care. If you
        go with metal, remember that there needs to be a thermal break
        between the outside and the inside or you will be right back in
        the same boat at least for the frames of the windows.
                
                /s/     Bob

    For "plastic" you might want to consider the 3M "shrink-to-fit" window
    insulating kit. You mount it on the inside with double sided tape
    and then shrink it with the heat of a hair dryer. It's as clear
    as glass and when done properly the surface is as tight as a drum.
    The kits are available in most hardware store (and Spags) this time
    of year and cost less than $10 dollars for enough materials to do
    several windows.

    Charly

>    For "plastic" you might want to consider the 3M "shrink-to-fit" window
>    insulating kit. You mount it on the inside with double sided tape
>    and then shrink it with the heat of a hair dryer. It's as clear
>    as glass and when done properly the surface is as tight as a drum.
>    The kits are available in most hardware store (and Spags) this time
    of year and cost less than $10 dollars for enough materials to do
>    several windows.
>

ok - but do they leave much behind when they come off - can you put 
them on the outside?  (so I can open the windows if i really need to)

thanx for all the idea- keep em coming
/j

> ok - but do they leave much behind when they come off - can you put 
> them on the outside?  (so I can open the windows if i really need to)

I used them on some of my windows last winter (on the inside). I was 
worried about what they'd leave behind on the oak window frames but 
the tape came right off. No residue whatsover. I don't believe they'd 
stand up very well outside but I've never tried it.

Chuck

    	My dog thinks she is an aardvark. She eats any ant that tries
    to walk across the floor.

    I left some of that double-sided tape on a window or two for a couple
    of years (windows I never opened), and when I finally did peel it
    off it tended to take the paint with it.  I think though, if you
    just leave it on for the winter and take it off in the spring you
    shouldn't have any problem.  And that 3M shrink-plastic stuff works
    really well.

    3M now markets an outside version of the plastic window cover. Put
    a few up this weekend, and they came out very well. Seem quite durable.
    Available at stores everywhere for $3.50-3.99.

	Two questions/problems with Anderson windows:

     1) I have Anderson windows throughout my house.  A couple of them
	won't stay up (ie, open) by themselves; they just slide shut...
	They are very easy to open up, too easy as a matter of fact.

	Does anyone know of a way to adjust the tension or something so
	that the windows will be able to stay open on their own ?


     2) I also have a problem with the seal on one window.  The problem
	is located between the window itself and the frame.  There is a
	gap of 1/4 - 1/2 there, and I'd like to adjust the frame somehow
	to close the gap.


	Any help would be appreciated.  Thanks in advance,
		Ken Hannan

    The fix for the imbalance problem depends on what kind of setup
    you have, but you might try this and see if it gets you anywhere.
    Raise the window and look on the bottom edge.  YOu should see
    a metal strip maybe 1/4" wide and 2" long at each end of the
    bottom edge:
    
    	| |	      |	|
    	| |___________|	|
    	|_______________|
    	 ^	       ^
    	 |             |
    	 `-------------+--- mwtal strips here
    
    These should be fastened with a couple of small nails.  Each of
    these metal strips is attached to the end of a balance spring.
    Pry out the nails, wind up the spring one turn, reattach the
    strip, and try the window for balance again.  (Or, if the problem
    is that the window won't stay down, let the springs unwind one
    turn and try it.)
    
    If you have a 1/4" to 1/2" gap around the windows, I wonder about
    the talent of the carpenter who put them in!  Are you talking about
    a gap between the sash (the part that goes up and down) and the
    trim boards that hold the sash in?  If so, you can pry off the
    trim boards, move them in so they're snug, and renail.  (Not too
    snug though, or the window will bind, and they really ought to be
    put on with screws so you can get the sash out easily when the
    time comes to repaint, but that's another story....)

    Most of the windows in our 15-year-old house were made by Rivco
    in Penacook, NH.  I know here to get spare parts, fixtures,
    trim pieces, etc.  One window is not.  It has different fixtures,
    moldings, and trim retainers, although it is the same general
    style as the others.
    
    Problem: the linkage at the bottom of the left-hand side of this
    crank-out casement-style double window is done busted; I'd like
    to get replacement parts.  How can I tell who made this window?
    Is there a characteristic size, color, shape, or design characteristic
    that would identify it as an Anderson, Marvin, Pella, Joe's 
    Happy Window Company, or whatever?
    
    pbm
    

    When I was looking for spares for mine, the guy at the company that
    distributes them told me windows could usually be identified by looking
    between the two sheets of glass at the aluminum piece around the edges 
    of the double pane glass. You know, the frame that holds the two
    pieces of glass together, not the window frame. Most manufacturers
    stamp their name there.

    If you have to take off the inside trim you might add insulation
    as a way of pushing the window frame together, to close any gap.
    When I was insulating my family room I noticed that the windows
    were binding, so I removed some of the insulation that I had stuffed
    between the rough frame and the window frame and the binding 
    dissapeared.  
    
    As you add the insulation keep trying the window untill the feel
    is right.     

    If the window is found to be defective, check with Anderson about
    the warranty.  We are having a seal leak problem with our Rivco
    picture window.  They claim it has a 5 year warranty and they will
    give us a new one.  Installation is our problem.

    I have a word of caution when insulating Anderson or any other type
    windows: Be carefull if you use the spray insulation foam in a can.
    My wife decided to use this stuff (without fully understanding)
    around the window frames. This stuff really expands! After I arrived
    home from work the day she did this, I said, "oh nice but do the windows
    still work?" They didn't move, and it was a job scraping the foam
     out to get the windows to go up and down smoothly and easily.
    
    She now fully understands how much the foam expands.....now as far
    as the door goes...well that is another story.
    
    Jim...

It specifically said on the installation instructions on my andersen's NOT to
use the spray in foam.

-mark

    on the first problem.
    
    window won't stay open.  thats pretty easy to fix. get a new set
    
    
    of sash balances.  get metal ones, the plastic ones tend to bind
    
    and wear quickly.
    
    as for the gap, from your description, you say the space is between
    
    the sash and and the frame. sounds to me like they are not original
    
    sashes, and have been replaced once. someone seems to have gotten
    
    the wrong size sash.
    
     the space of 1/4 to 1/2 sounds to unrealistic.  are you sure ?
    
    jim.
    

    take the done busted piece to a good lumber yard, or a larger window
    
    dealer.  if they can't get a factory part, usually they can sell
    
    you an identical replacement.
    
    jim.

re: >    as for the gap, from your description, you say the space is between
    >    the sash and and the frame. sounds to me like they are not original    
    >	 sashes, and have been replaced once. someone seems to have gotten
    >    the wrong size sash.
    >
    >  	the space of 1/4 to 1/2 sounds to unrealistic.  are you sure ?


	First of all... this notes file is great!  Thanks for the response
	people!

	The house is only 3.5 years old, so they must be the original
	sashes.  And the builder was written up in Worcester Telegram
	for building the best split levels in the area, so I don't know
	what went wrong.  

	Out of approx.  15 windows, I only have minor problems with 2 of them
	so I guess that isn't so bad.

	OK, the gap between the sash and the frame is probably 1/4 inch MAX 
	at one end (bottom), and then zero gap at the other end of the window 
	(center of frame). 

	I'll try the recommendations. Thanks.

    i have a bay window (actually 16 separate panes) that has only single
    pane glass at the moment.  the panes are held in place by wooden
    molding on the outside.  i'd like to replace the single panes with
    double or triple panes.  this soulds like something i should be
    able to do myself, right?
    
    is prepared double/triple glazed glass available to the homeowner
    without the rest of the window?  can it be made to size (18"x22" i
    think)?  could i make my own double panes by installing a spacer of
    some sort between two single panes?  what about the high-tech glass
    that has special coatings - is this available without the high-tech
    window? does glass expand and contract enough that i should wait until
    next spring to do this? 

    any insight would be appreciated.
    
    /mark

    I've heard that making your own is next to impossible.  Seems you need
to achieve a vacuum or something special to avoid condensation inbetween
the layers of glass.

    You could probably find the right sized panes for your windows but I
    don't think you'd be able to mount them in the frames with out some
    serious rebuilding of the window. The thickness of double and triple
    glaze glass is SUBSTAINTIALY more than single glazed. A sheet of glass
    is probably 1/8 to 3/16 of an inch thick and double/triple galzed is
    probably 1/2 to 3/4 inch thick if not more. 

    Charly

    I'd say your chances are not very good.  Thermopane glass now comes
    in "individual" pane sizes, but I suspect the selection of sizes
    is severely limited and the chances of the size you need being
    available is probably vanishingly small.  And, as pointed out, the
    sandwich of the double pane is almost certainly too thick to fit
    in your existing frame in any rational way.  
    If you want to keep your existing window, I think you best bet might
    be to get a single large framed pane of glass made up at a storm
    window company and put that over the entire outside of the window.
    My cousin did that on his picture window, with pretty good results.
    There was a small ledge in the outside frame that he could set the
    large pane into (actually, he had the glass company put it up -
    he didn't want to risk dropping a piece of glass that big!).
    Or, bite the bullet and buy a new double-glazed picture window with
    the "low E" glass; from all I've heard, it's good stuff.  

    
    Would it do any good to install "low E" glass in regular 
    (single pane) windows or storm windows?  If so, where does
    one buy it, and is it better to put the low E film glass 
    on the storm or the regular window?  I am asking this 
    because I have about 20 cracked  windows in my place 
    (yes, it's a REAL fixer-upper) which I will have to replace 
    anyway.  I would prefer to use the better stuff if it would 
    help. 
    
    TM

    re: thickness
   
    at first glance, there appeared to be plenty of room to spare in the
    frame.  i haven't taken any close measurements but i'd guess that i
    could probably fit double pane.
    
    re: availability
    
    but then if they only make a few sizes (sm, med, lg?) then double
    pane may be a non-option.
    
    re: storm window
    
    the bay window bows out (four vertical facets).  unless i added
    a frame or collar around the window, one large storm window would
    only fit in the inside.

    Re: Thickness 
    
    There may be "plenty" of room in the frame for the window itself but
    does that allow any room for the glazing compound or what ever other
    method you chose to hold the window in place. A quick call to a glass
    shop should indicate whether this size pane is readily available in
    "high-tech" glass (double/triple/Low-E types) and what the thicknesses
    would be. 
    
    The outside storm idea might be your best bet. Get four panels
    made up and have them fastened to each bay section. Have them made
    removeable so that you can take them down for the spring-summer-fall
    seasons and you'll also be able to clean all surfaces before you
    put them up for the winter.

    Charly

    I replaced a number of window panes with "thermopane".  One of them
    was a stationary large sheet of glass - about 3X4 feet.  The other
    2 were two horizontally sliding windows about 18" X 3 feet.  First
    of all, I wouldn't do it again.  The frame had to be modified in
    each case and was a nuisance to do.  Secondly, you can get thermopane
    (or any generic brand) in any size you want.  The large piece cost
    me $125 and it was tempered glass.  I ordered it from Country Glass
    in Hudson.
    
    To modify the window frame, I had to router out what holds the glass
    in place and use wood strips to hold the glass in place on the other
    side.  Glazing points are not strong enough and they tell you not
    to use glazing compound with the thermopane - its seal is dissolved
    by regular glazing compound.

    Replace the whole window.  It's too much work if you try to put
    thermopane on many small squares of glass.  

    I second replacing the entire window with a thermopane unit. By
    the time you get done doing all the mickey-mousing done to the existing
    window, purchase the individual panes, install them etc., you'll
    be nuts. 

    i third the motion.  you could never achieve as good a unit as
    
    can be factory built. we don't probalbly have the tools,\
    
    mostly we do not have the process. 
    
    in replacing windows or trying to achieve maximum r-value with glass.
    
    keep one thing in mind.  you can have the best bow window in the
    
    world, highly efficient etc. if the rest of the windows in the room
    
    or house are not equivalent, they bocome the weak spot. therefore
    
    the gain will be lost. in order to achieve max r-value all the 
    
    windows need to be of the same quality.
    
    this is what i discovered in shopping for replacement windows,
    
    at coldwell's in berlin, mass.
    
    
    jim. 

    There is a very good/long article in HARROWSMITH this month all
    about low-E glass, both windows and storm windows.
    
    If you can't find a copy, send me mail and I will see about Xeroxing
    up one for you.
    
    - rick
    

    after starting this note i did some calling around.  it seems that
    you can have double panes made to size.  i don't know who actually
    does the work - most places said they would have to order them.
    thicknesses can be 3/8" (not recommended), 7/16", 1/2" and 5/8".
    cost is typically $6 per square foot.
    
    looking again at my window i was surprised to see that even with
    the current single pane and wooden molding in place, there was still
    roughly 1/2" left to play with.  the window itself is in pretty
    good shape although it does need primer, paint and putty or sealer.
    i don't know why the window was made with so much "room to spare"
    but i can't complain.  i'm inclined to order one or two panes of
    the double glazed stuff and try it out.  the worst that can happen
    is that it won't work and i'll have to replace the single pane.
    
    if it does work, the $300 it'll cost me for the glass will be much
    easier to swallow than the $1500 (?) plus installation a new bay window
    would cost.
    
    /mark

    I have heard that for double-pane windows to do much good, the air
    space in between has to be at least 1/3", better 1/2", even better
    5/8" to 3/4".  So, go for as much thickness as possible.  I suspect
    that the not-recommended 3/8" thickness would be scarcely better
    than single pane and probably not worth the trouble.

RE: .10

It is not true that "any gain will be lost" if you fix only some of the windows
of a house.  You will get some gain, but of course unless you fix them all, you
won't get as much gain as *possible*.

Jim. 

>    I have heard that for double-pane windows to do much good, the air
>    space in between has to be at least 1/3", better 1/2", even better
>    5/8" to 3/4".  So, go for as much thickness as possible.  I suspect
>    that the not-recommended 3/8" thickness would be scarcely better
>    than single pane and probably not worth the trouble.

Not really true.  The optimum space is somewhere between 1/2" and 1".  Any 
larger than that, and the space is large enough to form a convection current, 
with cold air falling down the outside surface and warm air rising up the 
inside surface.  This current significantly decreases the effectiveness of the 
insulation.

A 5/8" space is better than a 3/8" space, but only marginally.  The big win 
comes from breaking the direct conduction from inside to outside - and even a 
1/8" space does that.  After that, the increasing space does add some 
insulating value, but not nearly as much as the initial hit, until the 
convection current starts to form.

Paul

    Glad I'm not the only one that wants to do this!!
    
    I have a Wall of windows each ~30"x30", about 26 of them.
    
    They were all double glazed, by a craftsman in the early 1950's..
    Were double glazed is the right term for ~10 of them.
    
    Has anyone replaced windows with double glazed ones....
    
    If you can't use glazing compond what do you use?
    
                                         Tom
    

    i'm beginning to understand (finally) whats going on in this topic.
    i think we're discussing two types of double glazing. to me double
    glazed means a thermopane window. wherein a gas is captured between
    2 panes of glass and sealed at the factory. when i read about double
    glazing in this topic, it refers specifically to 2 panes glazed
    or puttied into a sash.  from what i've read and understood 
    2 panes merely puttied into a sash does not accomplish much beyond
    the "r" value of the glass itself, and you would be better of 
    with a storm window.
    
    jim.

>    from what i've read and understood 
>    2 panes merely puttied into a sash does not accomplish much beyond
>    the "r" value of the glass itself, and you would be better of 
>    with a storm window.
    
Two panes puttied in (with an air space) will have nearly the insulating value 
of a purchased thermo-pane window.  Only problem is, the inside of the panes 
will be fogged all winter, and will probably eventually get dirty as well.

Paul

You can prevent the fog between the panes by putting a bit of desciant between
the panes.

Jim. 

                             -< mositure absorber >-

< You can prevent the fog between the panes by putting a bit of desciant between
< the panes.

Where can I get some desicant material, and how much should I use?

Dave

    re: .19
    I question the long-term reliability of this approach.  At some
    point the dessicant will absorb all the water it can hold, then
    you'll have the moisture problem again.
    
    I've heard that the way to prevent fogging in double pane setups
    is to seal the inner pane tightly, and leave the outer pane slightly
    unsealed.  Sort of like you do with insulation: put the vapor barrier
    on the inside, and provide slight ventilation to the outside.

    re: .20
    
    Dave,
    
      Get in touch with the person that orders equipment for your group.
    As far as I know, our hardware is still shipped with silica-gel
    packets (desicant) and its usually disposed of as the equipment
    is uncrated.
    
    -Jim  

  If water was continually getting between the panes, then I agree that
  the dessicant would get saturated.  Some of my windows (Marvins with
  energy panel rather than thermopane) fog up and some don't.  The ones
  that had their energy panel installed on a cool, dry day don't fog --
  the ones that were installed on warmer days do fog.

  I think silica gel might really help in this situation but there's
  one other problem.  Putting that white, square packet between the
  panes would look almost as bad as foggy windows.  Is silica gel (or
  some other dessicant) packaged any other way?  A long, thin packet
  that sits on the bottom of the window would be just the thing -- does
  it exist?  Can you get the stuff in bulk and package it yourself?

  JP

Probably if you were going to do this (and I think it's a little 
crack-brained myself) you'd want to snip open the packets and sprinkle 
the suff at the bottom of the airspace.  It would look like sand at the 
bottom of the window, which I think would be less objectionable than any 
packaging method.  It would be a good idea to bake it for a while to get 
as much water wrung out as possible before use.
						>>>==>PStJTT

I have heard that some? makers of double pane window purge the air space
    with nitrogen to remove the water content. Anyone else heard of
    this?
    
    -j
    

    In looking through the notes containing window information, I notice
    that most of the noters are from the east coast area. What I am
    interested in is knowing if there are any people at CXO that have
    experience with windows and/or window dealers in the Colorado Springs
    area. Specificaly, does anyone have experience with Oldach windows. I
    know that there is a Pella window store downtown, but how about the
    best dealer for Anderson and Marvin? Any other window manufacturers
    that are worth checking out? I have awning windows in my home now which
    I hope to replace next year. 
    
    Mike
    

    
    
    
    
      I thought they used Argon. But only in their top of the line windows.
    Opps. I'm talking 'bout Marvin windows.  Nice windows and sliders.
    
      Rick.
    
    

Re .-1 & .-2

Doesn't seem to me that there would be any difference between argon ($$$)
and Nitrogen. Either one of them can hold water vapor as well as air can. 
It's not a matter of using an inert gas but rather of removing all moisture
that could possibly condense.  When installing the second pane of glass to
my Pella windows for the winter, just before latching the glass in, I try to
"fill" the space between the windows with warm air from a hair drier. This 
may not dehumidify the air, but it does tend to dry out any moisture which
has already condensed in the dead space.

Speaking of filling the dead space, Has anybody ever heard of a system
whereby the space between the panes is filled from the top at night with
styrofoam beads and then emptied during the day into a hidden container     
by sucking out of the bottom of the window? I seem to recall such a scheme
many years ago. I keep imagining a few stray beads of foam adhering to the
glass by static electricity. Does such a system exist?

Dave

>Speaking of filling the dead space, Has anybody ever heard of a system
>whereby the space between the panes is filled from the top at night with
>styrofoam beads and then emptied during the day into a hidden container     
>by sucking out of the bottom of the window? I seem to recall such a scheme
>many years ago. I keep imagining a few stray beads of foam adhering to the
>glass by static electricity. Does such a system exist?

Yup, I've heard of it.  And that which you imagined is exactly what killed it. 
They couldn't figure out how to overcome the massive static electric charges
generated, and the whole idea flopped. 

Paul