Conference 7.286::home_work

Try John Wilson of Apex Construction Co. in Boylston.  He also has a
friend in Princeton who does contracting; unfortunately, I don't know
his name, but probably if you called John he'd tell you.

Cost estimate...what's the per-foot rough guess figure these days, about
$50 per square foot, finished?  At that rate you're talking $20,000 for
your addition, as a very rough guess.  I think the main thing to do is
to find a contractor you can trust.  Working with somebody in an adversarial
relationship is ridiculous.  I've dealt with John Wilson, and found him
honest and mostly competent.  I think his friend is the same, and from
reports, perhaps a slightly better carpenter than John is but I'm not sure.
All I've had John do is rebuild part of my porch, which doesn't give much
of a chance for his finish carpenter skills to show.

Crawl space vs. full basement?  Your choice, I guess.  If you can cut
through to provide access from your present basement, and if you need
the space for something, the full basement probably makes sense.  It
will probably also be a little warmer, and personally I think it's a
"better" job.  However, unless you really need the extra basement space
there is probably no compelling reason not to go with a crawl space.
It's just more difficult to fix anything under there, if anything ever
needs fixing.  

Steve

Get yourself a copy of the National Construction Estimator.  It's got
prices for everything in the world.

I'd say $50 per square foot is pretty cheap these days.  I'd consider
$70-$80 to be a better approximation.

- Paul

	Got any more details on this publication? Publisher? Cost? Where
    to get it? (Would a local library have one?)

					Thanks,

					    Mark

I recently ordered a GREAT estimator book. Its from

Home-tech Publications
5161 River Rd 
Bethesda MD 20816
301/654-8380

I called, Read my MC number and had the book in a couple days by UPS.
It contains several hundred pages, breaks down EVERY step of house bulding,
shows standard costs for Material, labor and Subcontractors. For $37 you
get the book and 4 quarterly update sheets with price adjustments.

I purchased the book to use as the database for a complete Job cost and
estimating system I have just about completed for my brother ( a small
contractor). It runs on a Rainbow, under dbaseIII. He's running his first
job on the system now. I would be happy to share the program with anyone
interested. If interested mail to GIGI::GINGER or DTN 297-6201

re: .5

I think Mastercard numbers are private information and shouldn't be entered
in NOTESfiles.  (Send them by VAXMail directly to the moderator.)

-joet  (the moderator)  :-)

    	This is kind of an offshoot of the last note about the mortgage
    rates.  I too am going to remortgage but I want to make it for an
    additional 10 or 20k so that I can put an addition onto my home.
    So this is where the DIY comes in.  I am interested in a two story
    addition added onto the back of my home.  I have a 2 story house
    with the second floor bedrooms having slanted ceilings and a few
    dormers.  I want the addition to compliment the house in the same
    way but with a couple of large dormers.  The size I would like is
    a 17' by 20' area built up with no celler. 
    	What I want to know is what is the difference in price for having
    a finished off addition complete to having just the shell, outside,
    floors and frame put up?  Also what is the difference in price and
    time for one floor as apposed to two floors?  I can do the finishing
    if necessery but if the price is right I'd have it done.  Also does
    anyone know of any good contractors in the Leominster/Fitchburg
    area to do the work?  Any info would be appreciated!
    
    						Thanks in Advance
    							Jorge'

    
    I just had something similar done...a 24x24 attached garage with a
    workshop above, gambrel roof, two front shed dormers and a 3/4 dormer
    across the back.  I don't have exact figures, but a large chunk of the
    money is the poured concrete foundation, which probably costs about
    the same whether you have one story or two resting on it.  In my
    case, the difference to have a second floor is the load-bearing
    floor, carrying beam, lally columns, a little extra concrete
    under the columns, the dormers and a stairway up the back, which
    isn't much compared to what has to be done for a one-story addition,
    anyway.  I think it's been said before in this file that it makes 
    more sense (is cheaper) to build upward than outward, mainly due to
    the cost of concrete foundations.
    
    On your other question, there is a BIG difference between finished
    and unfinished costs, even more if you do the exterior siding,
    as well as the interior work.  
                                                   
    						- Rich

    RE:1  I didn't see any prices in your last reply.  I don't need
    your actual costs just a rough $/per sq. ft idea.  
    						Thanks,
    						jorge'

    re .2:
    
    	Ah...you noticed that.   There are a few other features of our
    addition to consider with $/sf cost, so now that I have a little
    more time, I'll go into more detail.  The whole addition cost under
    $18/sf.  In addition to what was described in .1 is a screened porch
    across the back and a 7x10 room adjoining everything and the back
    door of the original part of the house, so you have to kind of guess
    how it relates to what you want to do, since I didn't get a breakdown
    on the cost of the different parts.  The things to consider are that
    you don't need as much concrete (the floor), but more wood if you're
    just adding living space (cheaper, I guess), the porch probably
    cost less/sf.  One breakdown I did get is that the labor for the
    cedar shingling of the walls would have been about $1k, and I think
    I'll need about 7-8 squares.  So, the cost above doesn't include
    siding or labor to apply it.  Oh, yeah, I think I mentioned this
    before...I'm doing all the interior finishing, other than the doors
    and stairway.
                                
    	On the one-story vs. two-story decision, I would *guess* it
    made a difference of a few $k, given that we wanted a gambrel roof,
    anyway.  I'm not sure how big of a consideration this is, but I would
    think the difference with a "regular" roof would be a little more
    significant, since the gambrel roof effectively makes up the 2nd story
    walls, so it's just a matter of adding the components described
    in .1. 
    
    	A few other tips (fwtw):  Talk to several contractors from the beginning
    and give each one the same description for comparison.  I got strung
    along for a few weeks by one contractor with one excuse after another
    on why he didn't have an estimate on time and when he did finally
    give me a number it was almost 50% higher than his original ballpark
    figure and he still hadn't included all the features we had
    discussed!  I had initially been impressed with this guy, so I waited
    a coupla weeks before talking to other builders.  Also, avoid
    cost-plus arrangements unless you have written limits on overruns.  
    I've heard more than a few horror stories on cost-plus arrangements!
    
    	Hope this helps!  Let me know if you have any other questions.
                                       
    						- Rich

    	THANKS DO MUCH FOR THE DETAILS, RICH.  THEY ARE WHAT I REALLY
    NEEDED.  I WILL HEED YOUR ADVICE ABOUT MULTIPLE EXSTIMATES AND 
    FIRM PRICES.
    					THANKS AGAIN,
    					   JORGE'

    re .3:
    24*24*18 = $10368? Tell me again its true! I have been figuring
    30-40k for a 24x24 garage with 2 stories above it!!!
    Am I  missing something? The basic addition is 24x24, with a
    concrete slab foundation which also serves as the garage floor; and
    a 2nd floor above ?
    How thick is the slab foundation.? I have the impression that one
    of the reasons there are cellars in New England is that the frost
    line is so deep, one might as well go the additional little distance
    and have a full cellar.

    Hmmm...well, it's not that rosy.  The way I figured the square footage
    (which is also the way they figured it for the building permit)
    is to figure the floor area, i.e., garage floor+2ndfloor+porch+back
    entry room (connects garage, porch and kitchen).  The foundation
    is pretty much the standard footers (I think 4 ft. below frost line)
    and foundation walls (to about 1 ft. above grade).
                                                      
    						- Rich

    I am thinking of buying a small two bedroom house in Beverly Ma.
    and need some information on the cost and difficulty of an addition
    that I would like to add to the house.  It is a five room house
    with kitchen, dining room and living room on the first floor and
    two bedrooms and a bath on the second.  The bedrooms are located
    over the living and dining rooms.  We would like to extend the smaller
    bedroom 15' to go over the kitchen, and perhaps add a bath
    (diagram follows)
    
		    <--15'----->	    
    		    ************________________________
    		    *	Addition|	|bath|		|
    		    *		|b room	|    |bedroom 1 |
    		    *		|2	|    |		|
    		    ------------|-----------------------|
    		    |		|			|
		    |		|			|
    BACK	    |	Kitchen	|living rm.  dining rm. |      front
    		    |		|			|
    		    |		|			|
    ________________________________________________________________
    	
	The lower roof is flat over kitchen.  The upper roof is pitched
    to the front of the house.  The question I have is how much can
    I expect to pay for the addition?  I would have the addition roughed
    in and do the finishing work myself.  Is it possible to add a bath
    and what would be the approximate cost?  I realize that this is
    a difficult question to answer without looking at the house.  I
    am interested in your best guess estimates.  Please hurry as I will
    be viewing the house again on thursday and would like to make an
    offer.
					Thanks in advance
    					Ralph    
    
    

    	I am planing an additon also. I have had 2 contractors
    so far come and look at my house with a 3rd on his way.
    Although both of the contractors did'nt want to give me
    a $ per square foot estimate, ( as every addition varies)
    they did say that a good ball park figure is between $65
    and  $68 per square foot. This figure does not include
    fixtures or appliances so add the additional cost of these
    in. Also if your going to do some of the work yourself
    have the contractor itemize the estimate so you know how
    much your going to save for each thing you do.
    
    				Good Luck
    				Mike
    

A lot depends on the structural details of the existing kitchen.  Its
foundation and wall framing may have been designed to carry only one
story's weight.  Even if the existing structure can, in fact, take the
weight, it may still not meet modern building codes - in which case, even
though the addition could theoretically be built safely, it couldn't be
built legally. 

There's a big cost difference between adding just a second-story addition 
and rebuilding the entire structure of that end of the house.  Especially 
since the kitchen plumbing and other utilities are intimately intertwined 
with that existing structure.

    RE .5:
    
    My wife and I recently added a 24X20 family room and attached a
    24X28 Gambrel two-story garage (garage is on a slab). Regarding
    the frost line issue, the foundation is 4ft deep, standard practice
    in Massachusetts. The floor for the garage is 6" of concrete (make
    sure it is pitched toward the garage doors!).
    
    The second floor of the garage is a wide open room (the gambrel
    construction makes the room about 19x28) with a sub-floor only -
    we'll finish it off when the kids are old enough to figure out that
    they have a private play area (god help us!).
    
    The garage (excavation, frame, siding (insulite [yuk]), roof and
    paint) totalled in the $13,000 range.  
    
    Steve.

    
    re .7:
    
    	Sounds like you got a great deal!  Did you do a lot of the work
    yourself?  If so, which parts?
    
    						- Rich

    As of recently I have just completed (95% complete) an addition
    to my house. One thing I learned during this timeframe is that
    the cost of the project depends entirely on how much effort you put
    into saving money. In my case I concentrated most of my money saving
    efforts on the purchase of materials. Although I did save a small
    amount of money by doing the finish work myself, my focus 
    remained "GET THE BEST PRODUCT FOR THE MOST REASONABLE PRICE".
    Here are some of the lessons I learned:
    
    	- Buy most of your lumber, nails, sheetrock at high volume lumber 
    	  companies. They receive the largest discounts from manufacturers
    	  and in most cases do not go through middlemen. Also be
	  inquisitive, ask what it would take to cut the cost on a quote.
    	  I did this and found out that the salesman could ask his boss
    	  to allow the "SPECIAL PROJECTS" price, which happened to be
    	  roughly 2% less than the small contractors price. That 2%
    	  doesn't look like a lot but 2% of $15,000 is better in my pocket
    	  than in theirs.
    
    	- Buy electrical equipment at an Electrical supply store EXCEPT
    	  for smaller items like outlets and switches which are carried
    	  by department stores like Sears and are often on sale. I bought
    	  all of my outlets at 3 for 1.00. They work fine. The only
          differences are they dont say LEVITON or EAGLE and they don't
    	  have the slots in the back for inserting the wire.
    
    	- If you want to find deals call the manufacturer of the item
    	  you desire. They will point you to their volume dealers where
    	  the savings can be found. I did this for my vinyl siding and
    	  wound up saving a considerable amount.
    
    	- Whenever possible buy direct from the manufacturer. I did
          this with my garage door and door opener. I had originally
    	  ordered a 16 x 7 insulated garage door from East Coast Lumber
    	  for $465.00. One day out of curiosity I stopped at Eastern
          Garage Door in Lawrence MA. to inquire about prices. The bottom
    	  line is that I got the same exact door for $320.00.
   	  I cancelled my order for the garage door from East Coast Lumber.

    
    	- Take advantage of being a DEC employee and get your discount
	  from those businesses offering them. I learned this one quite
    	  by accident. I was purchasing electrical supplies from Ralph
	  Pill in Nashua. In my usual custom I asked if the goods I was 
    	  getting was at a discounted price, they assured me I was.
    	  One day out of curiosity I called A&J electric, on Maple street
    	  in Nashua, to inquire about prices. They quoted better prices
    	  than Ralph Pill so I asked for directions. When I said from
	  DEC in Merrimack they requoted the price and said they give
    	  discounts to DEC employees. The bottom line is the GFCI
	  receptacle I purchased at Ralph Pill for $21.00 I bought at
    	  A & J for $11.00. Also the people at A&J are nicer to deal
	  with. The two guys behind the counter are the owners and
	  are always willing to help out a homeowner.
    
    	- Take the time to draw up a plan and a materials list and review
    	  it periodically to make changes. This helped me to focus on
    	  what materials I needed and when I was going to need them.
    	  I found this to be a sort of schedule for when I should begin
 	  bargain hunting in order to have the materials available
	  when they were needed.


    
    	- Lastly try to have fun searching out the bargains and don't
	  waste time on uncooperative retailers. There is someone out
    	  there who is willing to give you a deal in order to get
    	  your business.

    
    	In case this might be of interest to anyone who is considering
    building an addition and is wondering about what it would cost,
    here is a brief list. If anyone is curious about acutal prices for
    each phase I will enter that in also.
    
    	I own a cape and this was a standard 16X20 room off of one side.
    
    	Foundation with crawl space
	2x4 construction
	4" insulation
       	Viynl sided, trim and shutters
    	Full bath with ceramic floor/solid brass fixtures/fan
    	3 marvin standard size windows
    	1 marvin picture window
	Carpet/Pad
    	Curtains/Levelor blinds
    	Bedspread/sheets/pillow cases/lamps
	Sliding mirror doors for closet
	All Oak trim
    	2 phone jacks
    	Cable tv jacks
    	2 Solid 6 panel pine doors
    	Solid brass French door handles
	Electric heat in bathroom
    	Forced hot air hookup for rest of room
	Professional electrician / not me  $180.00
	Professional plumber / not me      $750.00
	Landscaping....6 shrubs and 20 sections of sod
          
    I added up EVERYTHING it cost me before I moved in. Thats why I
    included the curtains and that other stuff.
    
    The prices I was quoted from contractors was around $25,000 and
    that did not include a bathroom, hollow doors instead of solid pine,
    no brass fixtures, no mirror sliding door, no carpet/bedspread...ect.
            
	The final figure was $13,500 for doing it myself. I think the
    price would have been around $30,000 if a contractor did everthing
    I did.

    	I am not a carpenter but are a Komputor Enginear. I bought alot
    of books and found this a somewhat easy job and would highly recomend
    anyone trying this !

    I'd love to know actual prices.  
    
    BTW - Did you do *all* the work yourself?  (i.e. foundation, framing,
    etc.)
    
    
    Thanks,
    
    - Chris

	Hi Steve-

	     I too would be interested in prices but more importantly I would
	be interested in knowing how much time it took you for the work you 
	did and how close you came to your own estimates in time and money

					Thanks Randy

    If you can, I would be interested in knowing what books you used
    and which ones you thought were more helpful than others.  I am
    about to do some remodeling starting with bringing in a contractor
    for estimates and then figuring what work I could do to bring the
    cost down.  
    
    Did you find it worthwhile to have the plumbing and electrical work
    professionally done?
    
    Steve

	Below is a list of all the prices I paid to complete my addition.
    You will see alot of Misc items listed. These are receipts I found
    that included alot of small stuff. I.E. nails, screws saw blades
    and a bunch of other stuff that really added up.
    
    	Re .1
    
    		I did all the work myself except for 
    			Foundation
    			Electrical
    			Plumbing
    		I would have done the plumbing but it is illegal for
    		anyone in Mass to do the plumbing unless you have a
    		license. I tried to get a permit and the inspector 
    		could not even do that.
		The wiring was done at the same time I had my service
    		upgraded to 200 amp.
    
    	Re .2
    
    		As far as how long it took me. I had the foundation
    put in Dec 22 and then waited until about Feb when there was
    a weekend without snow. I put the floor on then covered it with
    plastic until about the end of March. Then I went at it in a major
    way. I worked every weekend about 12 hours a day. During the week
    I picked a few small items that were my goal to be completed. These
    tasks were all the crap stuff you really don't want to do but have
    to before you can do something interesting. Moving oil filler pipes,
    ripping siding off, ripping out uneeded windows and stuff like that.
    I finished the addition about the middle of July but could not move
    in until the carpet was installed which was about August 1.
    
    	Re .3
    
    		The books I used heavily were Sunset and the new Time
    Life Series on home improvement. The sunset book was labeled basic
    capentry if you can believe it. That book used an addition as an
    example throughout the book which was almost identical to what I
    was building. It had everything from A to Z. The Time Life books
    are all specialized with one book dealing with plumbing and another
    with framing and so on. 
    
    	I have done alot of work to my house over the years with the
    help of my friends doing things like decks, windows, sliders ect...
    I feel that those jobs prepared me with basic concepts on framing
    and general contruction rules before tackling this.
    
	Keep in mind that I did not search for best buys or wait for
    sales. I bought all my materials at either MAKI'S in Lunenburg or
    MOORES in Leominster. I did luck out alot and ran into sales,
    MOORES gave me a 10% discount when the saw how much stuff I was
    buying. Just as a side note, I found that MOORES and MAKI's were
    about the same in price overall. One place had something cheaper
    and sometimes the other way around.
    
    12/22/86--8/1/87

    Foundation 16x20                   		$1,817.50
    Building permit                  		$40.00
    Plumbing permit                  		$40.00
    Carpet                          		$900.00
    Plumbing                        		$740.00
    Bathroom tile                   		$154.60
    Tile glue and grout		    		$25.72
    Closet door                     		$181.17
    Curtains/blinds/bedspread/Lamps/Towels 	$900.00
    Joint compound                    		$9.44
    Electrical permit                		$40.00
    Electrical/wiring/bath heat/bath fan	$600.00
    Misc                            		$126.32
    Drywall tools                    		$24.54
    Drywall tools/strapping          		$94.20
    Door/Toilet/Bath/locks			$392.00
    Windows 4                       		$888.86
    Studs                           		$155.76
    Screens                          		$50.20
    Roof stuf                        		$84.53
    Wood                             		$33.51
    Siding                        		$1,350.00
    Wood for roof                   		$872.50
    Drywall stuff                   		$284.22
    Misc                             		$19.41
    Wood for floor                  		$735.43
    Roof stuff                      		$126.66
    Sheetrock stuff                  		$56.39
    Misc                              		$3.68
    Plumbing Stuff                   		$13.40
    Misc                             		$71.58
    Misc                             		$24.41
    Misc                              		$7.56
    Misc                             		$10.23
    Misc					$9.35
    Phone/cable jack                 		$42.96
    Misc                             		$36.71
    Misc                             		$12.54
    Misc					$41.57
    Plumbing stuff                  		$143.14
    Roof stuf                        		$23.05
    Shelf/paint stuff                		$72.11
    Vanity                          		$188.99
    Molding/finish stuff            		$301.78
    Door                            		$201.95
    Sliding tub doors               		$192.15
    Rental nail gun                  		$19.64
    Misc                             		$52.50
    Landscape stuff/shrubs/20 sect sod		$210.00
    Sheetrock                        		$94.20
    Misc                             		$37.43
    Paint                            		$20.98
    Paint                            		$46.16
    Misc                            		$172.11
    Medicine cab                     		$95.62
    Sheetrock                        		$18.63
    Bathroom stuf                    		$19.41

    
    
    			TOTAL			$12,927.80
    

    
    I am starting to build a rumpus room/bedroom in my basement and
    being new to the area (Gardner) I don't really know the best places
    to get materials. I'll be needing general wall stuff;
    2x4's, 15" insulation, sheetrock, etc.
    I've read some notes about how and what to use but I didn't see
    any on where to get the best buys.
    Any favorite spots?
    Fitchburg, Leominster area is fine. I travel Rt.2 daily.
    
    Thanks,
    Mike
    

    Re: .5:
                                                   
    I live in Gardner too.   
    
    Grossman's in Gardner is your typical Grossman's.   Their prices
    are just high enough so that for most stuff, they're OK.   It's
    too inconvenient or no cheaper to drive anywhere else too far away
    if they have something, and you need it now.   (Especially on a
    weekend or night.)
    
    Moore's in Leominster is a block north of Rte. 2 on Rte 12.   They're
    very convenient, and always helpful, although special orders can take a
    while. 
    
    Back behind Searstown mall is a Webbers.   They don't have much
    selection (seem to be a contractors yard) but they have good prices
    on Andersen Windows (30% off) on their truckload sales.
    
    Maki Lumber (in Lunenberg) - take Rte 2 to Rte 13, North on 13 to
    Rte 2A, left, and go about 1 mile.   Their prices are also good,
    and they'll give you contractor's price if your order is big enough.
    A year ago they had the best prices on insulation and sheetrock
    of anywhere.   Cash'n'carry on the sheetrock, they did deliver the
    insulation, but it was enough for four houses.  (Quite literally;
    four of us batched our orders together.)
    
    Chair City Lumber in Gardner seems to be a contractor's yard.  Their
    retail prices are too high.
    
    
    Most of my business goes to Moore's.   I've never been in the store
    when someone didn't ask if they could help me, they're so convenient,
    and their prices are as good as any (higher on some stuff, lower
    on others, but usually better than Grossman's.)

    
    
    Super!   Thanks a lot for the help. Looks like the fishing pole
    is about due to retire for the season.
    
    Where's my hammer..........
    
    Mike
    

we are planning to add a 3/4 BATH (about 7' x 8') on the second floor.
i am NOT a DIYer but would like to know what it would cost us if we get it
all done by a professional. my impression is that it would be around $5000.

i plan to get some estimates from some local home-improvement companies, but
was wondering what other noters felt would be a reasonable amount. (estimates
to the nearest $500/$1000 would be acceptable). of that amount how much would
be for parts and how much would be for labor? do you suggest that we get the
parts ourselves, and pay them just for the labor?

i assume the cheapest quotation need not be the one to go with. how different
is the quality of work between different contractors? could someone
suggest a good contractor in the nashua (NH) area? do we need to hire 2
contractors, one to do the plumbing and the other to do the rest, or can we
get it all done by one contractor? (phew! i know these are too many questions
but i got to start somewhere! remember, i am NOT a DIYer)

it would be adjacent to another bath -- so i expect the work to be a little
easier. the house is about 5 years old, and we don't plan to have something
real fancy or real cheap. it would involve rearranging a closet.

thanks in advance.

-- kamesh

    1) I would be surprised if you can get it done for $5000.
    
    We had a 2nd bathroom done 8 years ago for $5000. The rough-in plumbing
    was already there

    I would agree that $5000 is too low.  We just got a quote on replacing
    the shower stall in our 3/4 bath off the master bedroom; no other
    work.  $2000.  That's probably going to tilt us towards DIY, even
    though I'm squeezed for available time right now.
    
    pbm
    

The going price for just plumbing a full bath is around $5K (give or take) for
average fixtures.

-mark

    RE:.7

    I think that you're being a little optimistic. I just put in a new
    bathroom DIY and the materials alone cost me over $2500. That included
    things like tiles, sinks, walls, vanities, etc. By the way, I kept the
    original toilet and tub, so add another $500 for those. I've heard that
    a rule of thumb is that the labor cost about twice what the materials
    cost. 

    I agree with the previous noters that $5K is on the optimistic side.
    Two years ago, I redid my entire master bath and it came to $3,700,
    not including my labor.  Mind you, this figure includes two sinks,
    two vanities, two medicine cabinets, two sets of lights, nice floor
    and tub tiles, heat/vent/light fixture, etc.  I concur with .11
    that labor will probably run you 2x the cost of the materials, if
    not just slightly less.
    
    I will be putting in a 3/4 bath this summer and I'm budgeting some
    $1,600 for it, which is probably on the optimistic side.  Then again,
    it's easier to get the wife to approve on cost overruns than in
    the correct budget in the beginning!
    
    Re working with plumbers
    
    Keep in mind Woody Allen's apocryphal remark about plumbers when
    you deal with them: "Not only does God not exist but have you tried
    finding a plumber on a saturday?"  I hate plumbing but I would suggest
    that you consider doing some of the work yourself if you think you
    can hack it.
    
    Alfonso
    

    This horse has been beat before.  I think that plumbing is one of
    the easier trade jobs to do.  I like it and find it rewarding when
    I can turn on water at a new location.  It is illegal to do your
    own plumbing in Mass.  
    
    I re-plumbed my supply plumbing for the entire house in two weekends.
    Since I live in Georgia I can do my own plumbing.  I had a plumber
    come out and inspect it and he said it was as good or better than
    he would have done.  
    
    The story is told that there are 3 rules to plumbing: Sh*t runs
    downhill, the bosses truck is red, and payday is Thursday.  If you can
    remember the first rule, you can usually plumb without much difficulty.
    Get a Ortho or Sunset or handy book and the steps to adding additional
    plumbing is well described. 

    P.S.    Remember, septic gas is poison and can kill and explode. Make
    sure you properly vent any waste lines. 

    
    The cost of doing a bathroom is highly dependent on labor. So this
    depends on where you live.  All the plumbing (including medium
    fixtures, but not including heater/boiler work) for a new 1-bath
    house could probably be done for $5K in the Athol/Gardner areas.  I
    base this on figures from people who are having houses put up.  Now
    in a new house a plumber doesn't have to worry about walls, etc, 
    but in your case, you already have the plumbing in the area,
    so that would probably offset those costs.
    
    Decent fixtures for decent prices can be had if you really look
    around.  I redid a 3/4 bath and these were most of my material
    expenses.  Maybe this can help you when you get estimates. 
    
    I paid $100 for a simple Almond toilet at K-mart (not their cheapest
    either), $400 for a nice almond corner shower stall with hammered
    glass doors (including fiberglass base and walls) from Sears (this
    was of course a really good sale price), $200 for floor tile (but
    you can get some pretty nice in stock sheet vinyl at places like
    Grossman's for much less).  You gan get a really nice vanity
    (including a top) for $300-400 at Grossman's, Spag's, etc.  Then
    there's the fixtures.  I paid $50 for solid brass sink faucets
    (another Sear's bargain), and about $80 (maybe less, I can't
    remember the figure) for a good-quality (but not fancy) Temptrol
    shower faucet and head at a plumbing supply house.  Now the other
    things you would need are a fan, light fixture, and mirror/cabinet
    ($350 would probably get you some good stuff). 
    
    OK, let's add it up ...
    
    Toilet			$ 100 
    Shower      		$ 400 
    Vanity & Sink		$ 400
    Faucets & Shower head 	$ 130 
    Vinyl Flooring 		$ 100
    Light, Cabinet, Fan		$ 350 
    			       ------
    				$1480
    
    Then there's the other miscelaneous stuff ...
    
    Basic plumbing (pipes valves, etc)		$100 (parts only, of course)
    Electrical (incl. labor for fan and light) 	$200 (*just* a guess)
    
    Now, there's the carpentry stuff ... really depends on what you
    need done.
    
    Walls, doors, molding			$800 (*totally* wild guess)
    

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    Now, the plumber's labor -- really depends on the area.
    Seems to me that if you don't live in one of those mega-expensive
    areas you can get this job done easily for $5K.  Shop around,
    and talk to his previous customers.  I know some Gardner/Athol
    people if you are anywhere near there.
    
    -tm                              
    

We just finished building our house, doing the contracting ourselves.  Our
plumber did the whole house for $6400, including FHW heat.  The break-down
was $3000 for one and $3400 for the other (domestic water vs. heating
system) - I forget which was which.  The only things we bought ourselves
were the two bathroom sinks and the kitchen sink.  His price included all
other fixtures - one-piece tub, one-piece shower, two toilets.  (And the
credits he gave us for the sinks came to something less than $150.)

Yes, we may have different tastes than many (we wanted white and
inexpensive).  But I think $5000 for _just_ plumbing (and fixtures) for
_just_ one bathroom is too high.  (Actually, I may have mis-read that note. 
If that price includes all the carpentry, cabinets, flooring, etc. for a
complete add-on or remodeling, I'll defer - it's probably more accurate
than anything I could guess at.)

re: .14

Many plumbers will balk at installing plumbing when the homeowner has bought 
the parts (not the flooring, but stuff like the shower) because the plumber 
gets a markup on the parts.  So if you buy your own shower etc., you may need 
to do a bit of bargaining and/or talking to several plumbers.  Occasionally, a 
plumber will give you a break on parts they supply if you let him know that 
you have done some research and have located an equivalent fixture for less 
than he wants to charge you.

Clay

I'm the one who tossed in the $5K price tag and maybe I exaggerated a tad (but
not a whole lot).  I'll admit I didn't talk to a whole pile of plumbers, but of
those I did talk to virtually all agreed that rough plumbing runs around $2500 
plus materials.  Then there's the fixtures and the installation of them.  Part 
of the problem is I sort of got a lump sum for what I had done that included
moving a bunch of base board heaters, adding some new ones, plumbing the new
full bath (including tub AND shower which probably added some).  Furthermore
I needed to move the washer/dryer, kitchen sink and move the expansion tank
for my well.

When the first plumber quoted me around $9K (including allowances for fixture,
one of which is a whirpool) I almost died!  I went to a second, Paul Kelleher in
Acton, and he wanted $15K.  I knew I was in trouble when I saw all those trucks
with his name on them.

The third guy I talked to refused to give me an estimate but said he'd so it 
time and materials.  The one ballpark he did give me was the $2500 to rough
plumb a bathroom.

Anyhow, I went with the first guy and now that I think of it maybe I should
revise my numbers since he did the rough plumbing and moved all the basboards
(including putting in another zone) for around $4K.

One final comment is that rough plumbing in NEW construction is considerably
easier than doing it in existing.  Also, if your going to the first floor that's
one thing and if it's the second, that's another.

-mark

    
     I just had a house built this past summer and added another bathroom
    to the builder's plans and the cost was $5k. This was having the
    bathroom back to back with another bathroom so there was a single
    wet wall. If I had placed the bathroom in another spot the price
    was $6-7k depending on how far the waste and feed lines were from
    the other bathroom. I would suggest you plan on using the $5k number
    for a ballpark figure and if you get away with less smile and be
    happy.
    
    -mike
    

    
    RE: .16
    
    If a plumber isn't content with their labor rate of $30-40 an hour and
    gets tee'd off at the idea of buying your own fixtures, then I'd tell
    them to take a hike!  I'm sure there are some good, reasonable plumbers
    that would do the work.  Personally, I wouldn't pay a plumber for
    something I could do myself.
    

    Local ads here in suburban NY/NJ from contractors:
    "Renovated Bathroom"
    -New sheetrock,insulation,American standard steel
    tub/toilet/sink,fixtures,basic pastel/white tile on floor and tub.
    $5995. 
    or dormer with two skylight (two bedroom) $5995
    
    I'm in the process of renovations, which involved replacing all
    my Waste pipes, half the copper supply pipes, and rebuilding
    two bathrooms from the studs up in a 1896 colonial, including
    new fixtures. I'm using American Standard Steel tubs, sinks, toilets,
    (basic units) and fancy Price-Pfister Porcelain cross handled
    faucets. We are getting nice mid-range tile.
    
    Everything is done but the tile. Total cost:
    
    PVC and copper piping, including tools and fittings $900
    1 tub, 2 sinks, 2 toilets,3 sets of faucets         $700
    tiles/tiling tools and necessities			$400
    							----
    							$2000
    We did it all ourselves.
    However I took a total of 8 days off(plus a few weekends),
    and lived without a shower or toilet for a week.
    
    based on quotes given to neighbors considering the same we
    saved alot. Some shopped around quotes from plumbers:
    		replumb sewage lines $8000
    		tile/install fixtures in already plumbed bathroom $5000
    		convert walk in closet to bathroom (plumb/install fixtures)
    		$9000
    
    If you are brave, I'd do it yourself and save. You will have the
    satisfaction of knowing how everything was done, you'll accumulate
    good tools, and you won't take a shower for a week.
    

Time to open this one again.


Picture a house that is one big rectangle, 24 feet total width and 
36 feet long.  It has a completely walk-up attic, which is 8'10" high 
at the peak.

What is a ballpark estimate for a full dormer on one side?  I guess 
that makes the dormer 12' wide X 36 feet long?

I am only interested in an estimate for the shell of the dormer, it 
would be just studs on the inside.

Any help would be appreciated (read - I have NO IDEA what something 
like this costs).

Thanks,

>    What is a ballpark estimate for a full dormer on one side?  I guess 
>that makes the dormer 12' wide X 36 feet long?

    $5500.00
    

re .4  thanks for the quick reply.  Since windows are such a 
variable, I assume that didn't include their cost.


re .3 - more info.    It would be vinyl siding, not clapboard.  

    I'm looking at the same sort of thing, but with a 13x32 dormer on
    a cape.  Where did you get your $5500 figure?  I just got off the
    phone to a contractor who wagged $10K-15K for roughing it in (i.e.,
    no gypsum, painting, etc)
    
    						=maggie

>        Where did you get your $5500 figure?  
    
    I made it up.
    

    I added an 20'x24' family room to our house (on an existing pad).
    The cost for materials excluding windows & doors was around $8000
    (but this included around $2500 got T&G cedar for the inside).
    The millwork was about another $2000 (for 6 40"x60" slider windows
    and a swinging patio door).
    
    I would expect the materials list for a shell to be less expensive
    (probably somewhere around $5000 - $6000), but labor to be more
    because the existing roof will have to be removed before (or as)
    the dormer is being built.  If you use the $ for labor = $ for
    materials rule, that would indicate that an estimate of $10000 to
    $12000 would not be unreasonable.
    
    - Mark

    estimates for a full shed dormer on the back of our 36 foot cape
    (in New Jersey) were in the 15 - 20 k range for the shell.
    
    	-Barry-
    

    hmmmm...sure doesn't sound as though I could ever get my money back
    from it, then, since I'd guess it'd be at least another $8K to finish
    it as 2 BRs and a Bath, even if I did the work myself.  That'd be a
    total of nearly $180K for what still works out to be a small house on a
    smallish lot in an inconveniently-located neighborhood.
    
    						=maggie 

    I think this is the best place for this question.
    
    We currently have a screened porch below a deck.  The porch is off
    a "daylight basement".  A couple looking at buying our house was
    wondering how much it would cost to "finish" this room.  They'll
    probably have a contractor come out to give an estimate, but I need
    to know whether or not the cost would be prohiibitive.  It would
    basically entail--I think, three walls, some type of roof setup
    under the existing deck, and some type of floor over the concrete
    that's there now.  Also two windows, and a door.  Any guesstimates??
    
    Thanks
    
    Susan

    Is there a "rule of thumb" for estimates? And if so, what is the going
    rate. Ex. if you want to add a 1000 sq. ft addition , is there a going
    rate for "the project". Assuming a typical addition. Like $ 55.00 a 
    sq. foot, for a total of $55,000.00 for the job.
    
    thanx/bob

Major variables for the formula (if one exists):

Full foundation?
Number of floors?
Baths?
Type of heat?
Luxury/bare_bones?

I imagine the easiest to formularize would be "Just give me four 15'x15' rooms,
with a roof, no plumbing, and pretend the foundation's already there."

    Bob, I don't know of any rule per se.,, but we had a 16' X 32' addition
    put on this year, and iw was $58.  per sq. ft.  That's a weather-tight
    shell, with a full foundation.  
    
    No finish work, no plumbing or wiring.  It includes the excavation
    and leveling of the dirt, cutting off of the old bulkhead, foundation,
    shell including shingled roof, windows, swinging patio door, break-thru
    to the old section (6 ft. wide), and two skylights.  No chimney
    work needed, but the sewer vent was extended as well.  No siding
    in this price, but we had the whole house done as a seperate item.
    Also included one full interior wall, and the installation of my
    furring strips for the ceilings.
    
    One BIG point, it did NOT include any disposal of material, other
    than the old roofing that was removed.  All the rest is MY
    responsibility, which was clearly stated in the contract.  This
    can be VERY expensive, depending where you live and what you need
    to get rid of.
    
    Good luck,
    
    Lee

    Could someone tell me if this is a reasonable price to have a
    16 x 16' deck built -- Labor $1,000.00, the contractor will let
    us know how much wood we'll need and we will be getting that 
    ourselves.  Also, I originally wanted an 18 x 18" deck but he said
    something like redwood/fir doesn't come in those lenghts so they'd
    be a lot of waste.  Is that right?

    re: .-1
    
    Depending upon the manner in which the deck is built, the costs for
    wood will run between $2.50 and $4.00 per square foot.  At $5. per
    square foot for labor, the estimate you have is about right.  Most
    people make some of their money in marking up the price of the
    materials.  In other words, they buy a board for $2.50 and charge $2.75
    In this manner they are covered for things that normally wouldn't be
    itemized.  A good example of this is saw blades.  These get consumed
    over a number of jobs and don't get charged to any individual customer.
    
    As far as the 18' X 18' deck goes...  Depending again on the way the
    deck is built, there could be a sizable amount of waste.  You would
    find that a 20x20 would be about the same.  The only cost difference
    would be in the additional decking needed for the extra square footage
    of the platform itself.  The frame would essentially be the same cost.
    
    Dan (Who builds decks as a part-time business)

    Thanks,
    Julie
    

    Why would there be a lot of waste?  Boards come in 8 and 10 ft lengths. 
    You alternate 10 and 8 ft boards and you will have no waste.  If your
    joists are on 24 inch centers, perfect match for joints.  For joists
    you use two 10 ft and overlap the 2 ft.  A few bolts thru the overlap
    and you have effectively made an 18 ft beam.
    
    What am I missing?

    re: .-1
    
    A lot of builders stock their own lumber.  This eliminates the
    "middleman" for materials.  When they do that, they usually stock the
    "standard" sizes, ie. 8',12', adn 16'. I agree that 10' boards are
    available.  However, the cost difference between a 10' and 12' board is
    usually pennies.  Thus my statement about the cost difference.
    
    For a 20x20 deck, I would use 12' header boards and 16' joists.  This
    would allow me to use the remaining 4' sections for the stairs etc. 
    This would minimize the waste overall.  One other popular way to make
    "non-standard" sized decks is to construct two smaller ones that bolt
    together.  This is my usual practice when I have a large deck that I
    must construct by myself. (Ever try to lift a 16x50 deck??!!!)
    
    Dan

    >Ever try to lift a 16x50 deck?

    No.  Why would I?  I would build a joist system using joist hangers,
    and then apply the decking material.  I would lift each board
    individually but not the whole deck as a unit.

    I understand about the waste now.  If I was doing it as a business, it
    makes sense to order quantities of the lumber and then use it as
    needed.  As a homeowner, I just buy enough for the project and order my
    lumber in sizes to reduce waste and cuts.

    I agree if you have a stock of parts, it is often cheaper to build a
    larger size for the same cost as building a smaller size and having
    waste left over.  Maybe in this case, the builder would make the
    suggestion to change the plans to the build the next larger "standard"
    size deck but for the same money since his costs don't change.  Or
    maybe the homeowner could ask if the deck size could be enlarged but
    without an increase because of material costs.

$1000 for labor on a 16 x 16 deck? Sounds like rape I built one just three
 weekends ago 1750sq feet 3 levels for $400 labor materials supplied by the
 owner and still made well over what DEC pays me for ~14 hours of work.
I could fly out there and still make a profit!


-j

    re: .-1
    
    While $400 of pure profit is a nice figure for 14hrs of work, think
    about the other costs you DID NOT have. Namely: insurance.  Liability
    insurance is not cheap!!  Depending upon the complexity of the deck a
    labor cost of $3-$5 per square foot is not unreasonable.  Of that
    amount $1-$2 goes just for insurance and taxes.  Workmen's comp is also
    not cheap.  And workman's comp is paid by the week not by the job. 
    This means that sone of the cost per foot covers times when there are
    no jobs to do.
    
    Dan

RE: .19   
    
>    While $400 of pure profit is a nice figure for 14hrs of work, think
>    about the other costs you DID NOT have. Namely: insurance.  Liability
>    insurance is not cheap!!  Depending upon the complexity of the deck a
>    labor cost of $3-$5 per Square foot is not unreasonable.  Of that
>    amount $1-$2 goes just for insurance and taxes.  Workmen's comp is also
>    not cheap.  And workman's comp is paid by the week not by the job. 
>    This means that sone of the cost per foot covers times when there are
>    no jobs to do.
      
      Well, for starters, Workmens Compensation Insurance is not paid by
      the job or by the week, but as a percentage of payroll. Further, a
      sole  proprietor  does NOT need Workmens Comp, although it is wise
      to carry it at minimal cost of ~$100 per year.

      As  for  Liability  insurance,  I  believe that it is based on the
      value of the work done.   This  would  be  for  both  Construction
      Liability  (covering  any  damage/injury  caused  by  construction
      activity) and for Product Liability (covering damages if the  deck
      collapses because of faulty material/construction).

      At $1-2 per square foot your talking roughly $250-500 of insurance
      for a 16x16 deck or about 12.5-25%  of  the  total  materials  and
      labor  cost  (I  assume  a  total  of  $2000.)   I  think  that is
      considerably high, probably on the order of 2-4 times higher  than
      what it would actually cost.

      $400  for 14 hours work is about $28 dollars per hour.  That seems
      to me to be enough for  a  decent  carpenter's  wage  plus  needed
      insurance.

      Don't misunderstand my argument here. Although I do NOT imply that
      the noter who built the deck for $400 is such a person, there  are
      a  _LOT_  of  people who unwisely undertake part-time construction
      work without having appropriate insurance.   As  I  said,  a  sole
      proprietor  doesn't  need Workmens Comp, and anyone can be foolish
      enough to work without liability insurance.  However I think  that
      the  biggest difference in the labor cost that a fella working "on
      the side" can charge and what you'll pay for work by a  full-blown
      construction company is in overhead other than insurance. That is,
      the construction company has an office and vehicles  to  maintain,
      maybe a warehouse, accounting and legal expenses, etc.
      
      Bottom  Line:   I  think $1000 labor for a 16x16 deck is way high.
      Maybe $400 is low, but I thing $5-600 is about the most you should
      pay  -- $700, tops.  The only qualification is that this might not
      hold if the deck includes any  fance  railings,  benches,  stairs,
      etc.   -- anything making the constsruction exceptionally complex.
      But my reading of earlier replies seemed to indicate that the deck
      under consideration is pretty straight forward.

re.last two
I have both workmans comp and liability insurance. Fair pricing allows
me to obtain jobs in a volume that more than offsets the cost but yes gouging
will pay the bills and maybe even afford more time off due to lack of work.

-j

   My husabnd and I added a family room and a second bathroom to our home.
   We are now selling it and we are only getting what we originally paid
   for the home (= price without cost of family room and bathroom = bad market
   and need to sell). Is there any way we can claim a loss on our taxes for 
   the amount of money we invested in the building of the family room and 
   bathroom which we are not getting in the selling price? 

   The home is our primary residence. We did have an appraiser come out and 
   give us some numbers. In addition, the homes in the area are also going
   for below their value.

   Any help in this area would be greatly appreciated. If there is another
   note in this conference which addresses this issues, please let me know. 
   If this note belongs in another notesfile, please refer me to that file.

   Thanks!!exit

    My understanding is, the amount you have in the house (the "basis"
    or whatever they call it) is the amount you paid + the cost of
    any capital improvements.  Assuming you can document the cost of
    the addition, I think you can claim a loss assuming the amount
    you sell it for is less than the total you have in it.
    
    But I am not a tax lawyer.  I'd see an accountant on this one,
    probably...an hour's worth of consulation time would answer all
    your questions, I expect, and you'd have solid information.

    This sounds like an issue for TALLIS::REAL_ESTATE.
    
    Hit keypad 7 to add TALLIS::REAL_ESTATE to your notebook.
    

    Agree with both .1 and .2. Go through your records and be sure you have
    all of the contracts and billing receipts related to the addition,
    since these would (I presume) be required to document the capital
    improvements. 

I'm not a tax lawyer either, but I believe that you are not ever allowed to
take a tax loss on personal property, just investment & business property.
You are, however (with the single exception of homes) required to pay taxes
on any capital gains on personal property (and for homes it's just deferred).

For starters, call the IRS and ask for their informational booklets on the
tax consequences of owning a home.  The answer is probably right there.
However, there are some complexities that you should look into... like 
deferred gain from your previous house, if any, things you could have 
taken as deductions when you bought your house (and still can if it wasn't 
too many years ago), etc.  So the second step is as .1 and .2 say.  But 
first, study up on your own.

	Best of luck,
	Larry

    Larry (.4) is correct.  Losses on a personal residence are NOT
    deductible.  Gains are of course taxable, but can be deferred.  It's
    not logical, but that's tax law for you.
    
    Of course, you could convert it to rental property for a while, then
    sell it, and take a deductible loss because it would then be business 
    property.  Definitely check with your accountant before you do that.
    
    Bob  

    I agree with Larry (.4). We were in a situation where we'd have to
    take a loss on the house if we sold it, so we consulted an accountant.
    If the property is rental property, then you can deduct it as a
    business loss. We ended up renting the house so that we could recoup
    some of our expenses in the form of tax benefits for every year that
    it's rented (which is *kinda* like making a profit) and then if we
    sell the house for a loss, we'll be able to deduct it.
    
    If you can afford to rent out the house, you'll be in much better
    shape. Your accountant can tell you how long you need to rent it 
    out before you could claim a loss. I think it's just a small amount
    of time, though.

Is it possible to carry the loss forward to the next house?  So that when you 
finally pay the capital gains, it will be on a smaller amount?

    If your talking a 16x16 deck (256 sq') with railings and stairs, with
    fir (i'm assuming tongue/groove) decking, which is much more labor
    intensive than regular 5/4x6 bullnose, I think $1000 is a tremendous 
    bargain.  That breaks down to less than $4 a square for labor.
    
    In the Leominster/Fitchburg Ma area your lucky to find someone to put
    up a deck for less than $5-6 a sq. for labor.  And while you may,
    there's alot of other variables to think about when getting that quote.
    Is the material Pressure Treated, diagonal decking? Bolts? Mitered
    corners on railings? type of railing? How high?  any angles? simple
    square shape? etc...
    
    Ya, there are people who could whip out a 16X16 deck for $1000, but 
    what are you really getting???
    
    There are quotes that sound very enticing, and a person could very
    easily underbid someone else, but what are you getting in return????
    
    I build decks partime, and could not do a 16x16 deck with
    railings/stairs etc... for less than $1000.  But are they diagonally
    decked? Irregular shapes? Octagons? 45 degree corners? All railing
    uprights bolted in place? ledger board bolted to the house?  I've seen
    some horrendous decks on new houses, with framing held up on the posts
    by nails...  ledger board nailed to the house... no flashing... no
    trim...  
    
    Basically you get what you pay for, just find out up front what you 
    want specifically... look at some decking books to get ideas and show 
    them to the builder...  saying a 18x18 deck is going to cause more
    waste is rediculous, it simply means that the builder has to do some
    additional framing and seaming of the decking which is going to be 
    more labor intensive, and is going to cut into his time/profit margin. 
    
    If someone can build a 16x16 deck complete, by himself for $400
    dollars, in 14 hours, I'd have to say he's a magician...   Hire him 
    and pay for his air fare.
    
    Fra  

    re:.18
    
    just reread your reply....   1750 sq' 3 levels for $400 in 14 hours....  
    
    Is that complete???
    
    I'd definately say your a magician... or else you had plenty of free
    labor helping you.
    
    I say it can't be done (IMHO),  3 levels implies railings, and possibly
    stairs, and these alone are probably more time consuming than the 
    remainder of the porject... not to mention digging the post holes and
    pouring the crete.
    
    Fra

    No magic everything was prepared for the job before we started all of
    the wood had been treated in advance by the homeowner. The soil out
    here is sand and with a power auger you can drill a hole almost as fast
    as you can move. My assistant is a retired master carpenter and he can
    turn out a set of steps at blinding speed. The site was on a terraced
    hill side so all 3 levels were less than a foot off of the ground and
    railings were not desired nor neccessary except near the steps.
    BTW- the owner and his wife played gofer.
    
    No majic just the right tools,skill and proper planning.
    
    -j

    My sister and brother-in-law have been thinking about putting an
    addition onto their ranch for quite awhile.  They talked to a
    contractor a 1 1/2 yr ago but decided against the addition because of 
    the cost.  Since then, given the state of the economy, the contractor 
    has called them saying they can now talk $$$ (business is slow for
    these guys!).
    
    They are looking to put on a 1 car garage, a half bath and a room
    approx. 13 x 18.  
    
    Does anyone know the current $ per square foot for such an addition
    (finished or unfinished?)?
    
    Thanks!

    My addition ran me about $50/sq foot, however I did alot of
    the finish work myself.  My house is on a slab, so I had to do some
    demolition work for sewer hook-ups etc.  I also added enough space that
    I had to add a second HVAC unit.
    
    I'd plan on $45-$60/square foot, but variables to consider are:
    
    . type of construction (slab, crawlspace)
    . additional HVAC requirements - can your present unit handle the load
    . how much of the finish work that you are able to do
    . the market in your area
    . the design of the addition (simpler = cheaper)
    
    Your note implied, but didn't state, that they have only gotten one
    bid.  If so, I strongly urge you to get serveral bids, especially in
    light of the economy.  When looking for a contractor for my job, I got 
    bids varying from $44/sq ft up to $100/sq ft.  Above all else, check
    references!
    
    Good luck...
    
    TD
    ft.

    .26's advice to get more bids is right on the money.  We had
    two estimates for our addition.  One was barely within our
    budget, the second was way over; the difference was over $10k.
    
    Also, consider how long it takes for the work to get done.
    In our case it took many months longer than we had envisioned,
    which turned out to be an advantage.  The reason it was
    an advantage is because far less of the cost of our home equity
    loan was interest, allowing us to lower the total monthly
    payment MUCH faster than if we'd had to pay it out all at
    once.  

    I agree w/.26...get various bids. I suggest, at a minimum, that you get 
    at least 3 to 5. Getting only two bids may result in a situation where
    one contractor purposely lowballs you in order to get the work, then
    hoses you for all the 'extras' that supposedly "weren't covered" in the
    contract. With at least three bids in hand, if one seems excessively
    low, you might want to sit down with that contractor to ensure that the
    bid covers everything you've asked for and ensure that you know exactly
    what you're getting for your money.
    
    We just had a basement renovation/bathroom addition done, and I had a
    total of 6 bids, which ranged from $14.5K to $24.0K. I then sat down
    again with the three lowest bidders ($14.5K to $18.0K), and made sure
    that they were (a) bidding on exactly the same spec sheet, and (b) were
    including everything on that sheet. Once I was satisfied that we were
    all on the same page, I was able to make an informed decision.
    
    Good luck!
    
    Freddie

    
     Hi,..
    
      I have a few questions regarding additions..
    
    if the building is already there...has its four walls and a roof but
    the interior is a wide open shell
    
    1) what could i expect it to cost me per sq.ft to have it finished off?
    
    2) with the sq. ft. price....does that include EVERYTHING?..such as
       all heating installation,plumbing,finish carpentry work..ect..
    
    thanks for any help
    al
    

We need advice/opinions on how to handle this situation we are having
with a contractor we have been dealing with.

We want to expand our family room by adding a 12x16 foot extension to
it, with a full basement underneath.  We spoke with a design/builder
about our plans, and told him our budget was around $20,000 for this
project.  He said that we should be able to do the project for that
amount.  We agreed that he would draw up plans for the project for
$500.  If we had him build the project he would waive the fee for
drawing the plans, but if we didn't have him build it we would pay him
for the plans and we could take them to another builder if we wanted.
He drew up the plans and they looked very nice.  We discussed the plans,
and said that we liked them and we asked him to do an estimate based on
the plans.  We just got a letter with the estimate and it was for $32,500.
The letter admits that he misjudged what the project would cost when we
told him our budget.  He listed a few changes that could be made, or
options dropped, that would bring the cost down to about $26,000.  But
the letter also acknowledges that making these changes could change the
project into something that we told him we don't want, a plain box-like
addition.

The letter lists individual areas of work (painting, windows, etc.), but it
doesn't itemize the cost of each of these areas, as we had expected it would. 
With the cost being so much greater than our budget, we wonder why he didn't
itemize the cost of these items and propose that we do some of them ourselves
to cut costs.  We said during earlier discussions with him that we would do
some interior finish work, like painting, if it would save money. 

Initially, we had agreed verbally in good faith to pay him for drawing the
plans, but because the plans he drew do not come close to matching our budget
we are unsure what to do.  The letter he sent does not mention the cost of the
plans or ask for payment for them.  It states that the quoted price for the
project is good for 30 days, and he hopes to hear from us soon. 

What should we do?

Marc

    
    Hummmm......  It might be a good idea if you didnt use
    gold plated nails on this project!  That might keep your 
    cost down a little.....:)
    
    Try someone else!
    JD
    
    

    
    
    	What should you do?
    
    	Well, since the final estimate turned out to be so much higher
    	than your original budget of ~$20K, the first thing that I would
    	do is to re-examine the  original plan that you had, and try to
    	determine if it is reasonable for the money that you want to spend.
    	It may turn out that you need to get several estimates from several
    	different contractors to see if your expectations are realistically
    	in line with your budget.
    
    	As far as the original contractor, it sounds like you may be stuck
    	with the cost of the plans, at least morally, since you did have a
    	verbal agreement. But we all march to different standards, so this
    	is your own call, although I would suspect that he would probably
    	win in small claims court if he chose to go that route. Maybe you
    	can work something out with him regarding the cost of the plans,
    	since the final estimate was so much higher than the original, you
    	might argue that you were relying on his initial 'Sure, I can do
    	this for around $20K' remarks. Worst case, offer to split the diff-
    	erence with him. $500 is kind of steep, IMO.
    
    	As for the fact that he hasn't itemized the cost of all tasks that
    	are related to the project, this doesn't surprise me. Maybe he just
    	doesn't want you to know what his profit margins are ;). At any
    	rate, not knowing how handy you are, it's difficult to determine
    	how much money you could save by doing task X that he would charge
    	$X for. Another consideration is that many of these sub-tasks are
    	interrelated as far as timing goes, since several inspections may
    	need to be done during the construction, and this means that the
    	timing for all the sub-contractors needs to be coordinated also.
    	This often means that contractors are hesitant to wait for you to
    	complete your portion of a task that may be holding up one of his
    	subs. What this all means is that you may be limited to final
    	finish work (painting, floor covering, etc.) as a means of saving
    	money.
    
    	Hope this helps
    
    	John

>>                      <<< Note 5001.0 by BROKE::ZEHNGUT >>>
>>            -< Addition estimate is very high: what should we do? >-

>>We want to expand our family room by adding a 12x16 foot extension to
>>it, with a full basement underneath.  We spoke with a design/builder
>>about our plans, and told him our budget was around $20,000 for this
	
	...

>>the plans.  We just got a letter with the estimate and it was for $32,500.
>>The letter admits that he misjudged what the project would cost when we
>>told him our budget.  He listed a few changes that could be made, or
>>options dropped, that would bring the cost down to about $26,000.  But
	
WOW!  I'm planning on a 24 x 16 addition someday and I wasn't expecting
it to be that expensive.  

Grossman's had a circular this week that had a 12 x 16 addition package
for $2700.  That included a bow window and most of the exterior & shell
work.  I think it didn't include the foundation, the roof shingles, paint
and it definitely didn't include any interior work.

I would get more estimates and specifically request that everything be
itemized. 

Also,  why are you going for a full basement?  It would probably be
cheaper with just a slab.  That's one of the choices I have yet to make 
in planning my addition.  I've heard though,  that with a slab,  you
need to be careful to insulate above and below the slab or else you'll
end up with a cold floor.

Garry

    Why do you want the basement extended? My basement extension just
    collects junk, ie dead storage. 
    I have no doubt that the extra excavating and concrete involved adds
    significantly. Ask what the cost would be to have a crawl space and do
    a poured 4' wall (frost line) instead.
    I wouldn't do a slab in the northeast, especially since you want the
    structure attached to the existing house. 
    
    	Dave
    
    

re last couple:  why extend the basement

    The place where the addition would go is where our bulkhead is
    currently located.  This bulkhead is the only exterior access to
    the basement.  The plan is to remove the bulkhead and reattach it
    to an opening that would be located in a new foundation wall for
    the addition.  An alternative is to put the bulkhead somewhere else
    on the house, but that would involve more excavation and cutting an
    opening in the existing foundation.

    Marc

    I'm the wife of the author.
    
    Our bulkhead is behind the current family room and at the very least
    needs to be moved.  Since Marc's woodworking tools have taken over most
    of the basement we decided we could use some more room down there as
    well.
    
    We told the contractor we didn't want to spend more than $20k because we
    didn't think the addition would add more than about $15k to the value
    of the house.  We bought the house at in 1987 at the peak of the market 
    and we've lost about 20%.  If we were going to spend much more than
    $20k it would probably make sense to sell our house and buy a bigger one.
    We also need a 4th bedroom which this addition would not give us.
    
    When I first saw the bid I was very disappointed because I was looking
    forward to the addition but the more I thought about it the angrier I
    got.  Not only was the bid way over but it was even worse than it
    seemed.  The plan he gave us included a builtin for books and tv/stero. 
    The bid for $32.5 did not include that builtin.  The builtin was an
    additional $3.5.  So the plan which I saw, and assumed I could build
    for my budget of $20k, actually cost $36k.  He was off in his estimates
    by almost 100%.  Why should I have to pay $500 for a plan which I can't
    come close to building for my budget.  He did not hold up  his end of
    the bargain because he did not produce a plan I could build for my
    budget or even my budget plus 10% - 20%.
    
    Carol

    well, from what you both write, it sounds like you are out the $500 for
    the plans.
    
    As for the cost, over the last couple of years we have been looking at
    building costs.  They range from $60 - $100 /per sq. ft.  The biggest
    difference in construction costs come in when you use "exotic"
    (non-stnadard in your area) or otherwise premium materials and/or when
    you use a design that is not "clean" (broken roof line, etc."
    
    Since this is an extension of an existing structure and, from the sound
    of it you are not in the "Cedar, Mahogany, and Cherry" neighborhood,
    labor and materials should be closer to the $60.  For the 192 sq ft
    area you are looking at, $12K-$15K is probably a good estimate.  On top
    of that, excavation, pouring the foundation, and site cleanup for that
    size should be less than $10K.  
    
    So, unless the builder has come up against something unforseen and
    serious (why not ASK him what drove the estimate up?), I would take my
    business elsewhere.  Now that you have the plans, go get three
    estimates, ask for references (and go SEE their work), and lean towards
    the middle estimate.
    
    Good luck...
    Dave

    Return the plans to the builder and say thank you. Let him know that
    he greatly exceeded the orginal amount you wanted to spend and now the 
    plans aren't what you want.  I don't think you're out the $500 bucks 
    unless you want to keep the plans. 
    
    IMO,
    Ray

    re.5 I was afraid of something like that was the case.
    Well like .7 says, swallow hard and pay for the plans. Then take the
    plans and get quotes from other contractors. 
    
    		Dave

I find myself wondering if perhaps the contractor is playing "bait and
switch" with you.  Either that, or he really didn't think it through
regarding his initial estimate.  There are books and even PC programs
available to contractors for use in estimating project costs.

I do agree that the quote sounds high, though any time you get into pouring
new foundation walls, you run up the meter quickly.

				Steve

    
    I can't speak for your situation, but can speak for the costs of doing
    this. I'm paying an architecture around $700 to measure the whole
    house, design a 21x21 2 rooms over a double garage addition, and then
    blueprint the whole thing. So he will do the design, which is sketchy
    stuff until Alice and I go ahead with the final design, then detailed
    plans for the garage, rooms and roof.
    
    His estimate is for me and buddies to build this is $15k. He would
    estimate a contractor would charge $40k.
    
    Hope this helps in setting expectations on what prices are reasonable.
    Are you talking $500 for designs or detailed blueprints?
    
    Simon

re: .10 Steve

Funny, I used the term 'bait and switch' when Carol and I were discussing
this last night, before I saw your note, but I really think that the
guy is not trying to deceive us but instead just badly estimated the
cost of the job.

re: .11 Simon

The plans consist of scale drawings of an exterior view of the addition,
overhead interior view of the quadrant of the house that would be changed,
and a set of interior views of the four walls of the family room with the
addition.  3 sheets 8.5x11 paper, drawn in pencil to scale, but without
measurements of every wall and opening shown, as they would be in a blueprint.
Some landscaping details are also shown in the overhead view drawing.

Marc

    
    hum, in that case $500 seems a little high for fancy design drawings
    but no blueprint you can take to the planning department and other
    builders. I would consider consolidating at this point and getting the
    full blueprints from this same source. Then go shopping!
    
    Simon

Marc and Carol,

       After reading your notes again I am wondering if selling and moving
to a larger house might not be the right choice. 

	- You've said yourself that this addition will not add a 4th bedroom
	  which is desired.

    	- You already have a family room and are esentially only increasing the
	  size. You're right in your belief that it won't drastically increase
	  the value. 

      You've already seen your value drop by 20%, and you estimate that
you might realize 3/4 return (15K out of 20K cost) in value increase. The
worst part is you still don't end up with what you seem to really want,
a 4 bedroom house with a larger family room.

      	Dave

    
    Shop around.  Last year we put on a 12 X 16 sunroom off our kitchen
    to replace a rotted deck.  Prices ranged from $6K to $15K.  (We actually
    received a bid for $10K for just a screened in porch!)  The sunroom
    is on piers with 6 inches of insulation in the floor.  I also
    finished the interior of the addition (except for electrical and
    heating which I subcontracted).  Top of the line materials were
    also used---Anderson Permashield Windows and Doors and Velux
    Skylights.
    
    This year we added a pressure treated deck (20X20) and prices
    ranged from $2300 to $7K.  Anyway, we took the low bids on both
    projects are are extremely pleased with both the workmanship
    and the results.
    
    Our property value had also plunged (about $50K in 3 years) so
    we are being very cautious on how much we put into the house.  

    
      I have resisted replying here, but I think I should now. I have been
    involved with contracting for a long time (My father is a contractor)
    and I am shopping around right now for a 24X24 garage and 10X12
    finished breezeway addition. I have an *idea* about prices and the
    contractor I spoke with last night confirmed what I figured and what I
    have read from other folks here.
    
      He told me: Rough guide for construction is $60 per square foot for
    living space and $20-$25 per square foot for a garage. This is for
    *normal* construction and would not include anything like hardwood
    floors, upgraded siding, expensive or a lot of windows, etc. But in any
    case, it *is* a fair ballpark estimate of what labor and ordinary
    materials would cost. (This is for the Nashua NH area)
    
      You should be able to judge based against that, fairly closely (within 
    25%) to what your costs should be based on what you want in
    your addition. You must remember that even with standard construction,
    there are many things that can push up the price, such as extra angles
    like gables, corners, pockets. Not to mention types of materials and
    the ability for the crews to access the area easily. (For example, if
    your addition is in the back of a house that is difficult to get around
    by trucks and backhoes etc, that will easily add to the price.) Also,
    is the guy expecting ledge where the foundation has to be dug? And
    don't forget that it can easily cost $600 plus just to cut through the
    old foundation into the new room - that would be an *extra* on top of a
    number like $60 per square foot. It *would* be cheaper to move the
    bulkhead rather than have another room in the basement. Consider that
    as well.
    
      Even after all of this, I do think (with the limited info I have)
    that the estimate you have sounds high by about 10K. You should
    definitely get at least 2 more estimates, if for no other reason then
    to check this guy's figuring. There are lots of good recommendations in
    this file. Call a few. Most are very willing to come out talk and give
    you a good faith estimate for free.
    
    				Kenny

    Thanks for all the replies so far.
    
    .14 was very good.  I had sort of come to the conclusion myself that
    building even for $20k might not make sense.   The point that we were 
    thinking of spending $20-$30k, not for a new room, but just to make an 
    existing room larger was an excellent one.  If I look at it this way it
    seems like a very bad investment.  My guesstimate is that we would have
    to spend about $60k more for a house to get the all the things we want.
    And we have to go thru the pain of selling/buying a house and moving. 
    I've done extensive landscaping and I don't really want to do that
    again but it could be done.  Of course it would take me a lot longer
    now since we have a 19 month old around now.
    
    I went to Littleton Lumber at lunch yesterday and priced the windows
    and skylights that were in the plan.  They were $4500 including at
    least some discount for buying so much.   The plan also includes a
    glass panned interior door and a wood pocket door which I didn't price. 
    We do have oak wood floors in the room which would have to be extended
    and the old portion would have to be refinished as well.  The roof was
    suppose to be a flat roof (pitched but flat to the eye) which had a lot
    of detail work on the overhang.  I'm sure that costs more too.  There
    was also an allowance for recessed lights.  Now that I've calmed down I 
    can see how the plan we got could cost $25-$30k.  I'm sure the room
    would be very nice but it's too expensive given the price level of the
    rest of the house (3 bedroom/2 1/2 bath, 6 year old garrison in Westford
    Ma).  
    
    The fact remains that the plan was clearly over our budget so we
    did not get what we agreed to pay for, which was a plan for an addition
    on a $20k budget.  Given what I learned yesterday in my lunch trip to
    Littleton Lumber, the contractor should have told me I could not have
    what I wanted on my proposed budget.  We could then have come up with
    alternate proposals or we would not have begun negotiations at all.
    
    We still have not decided what to do about the contractor and
    potentially owing him $500 but we will do that in the next few days to
    put an end to this.
    
    Carol

    re.17 Well, I'll give you one more thing to consider.
    Are you planning at a later date to add a 4th bedroom? (another $20K?)
    If so do you have a septic system?
    If yes check with the town now to see if the current system is adequate 
    for the additional bedroom. I know that you aren't adding another bathroom,
    but I think some towns specify the systems based on the number of bedrooms
    since that better equates to the number of possible people in the house and
    hence the amount of crap (no s words allowed here :-)) the system needs
    to process. I could be wrong on this and will wear my flameproof shorts 
    tommorrow.:-)
    
    Back on the  subject.
         I'd suggest calling around as a "sanity check" on the $60K delta.
    
         The interest rates are still low and unless you refinanced are
    probably lower than your current rate.
         Landscaping is "real work" but think of the fresh air & exercise.
    
    	Dave

    Do the plans the builder supplied show the types of lumber (sizes) to
    be used for the various areas (ie what size are the floor joists,
    rafters,carrying beam etc.) If these are not spelled out on the
    drawings, then what you were given were sketchs and NOT plans. The
    building inspector in Westford will require that the plans show all of
    this (I've been there). Also since he was doing the plans for the
    entire project, do you have a copy that shows the electrical layout?.
    A set of plans consists of : External Views, detailed framing, and
    services (electrical, plumbing etc). I would think that for $500 you should
    have expected to get all required drawings.
    
    Doug

    QUESTION? QUESTION? QUESTION? about addition.

    We want to add a 8 by 14 addition to extend an existing bedroom.
    Two feet of this addition will be a closet with sliding doors.
    The foundation is to be pole type but I am not sure this is a good
    idea, we are worried about moist comeup thru the ground and does
    this reduce the value of the addition ( the ground water level is high,
    any advise. Also we want two of the existing doors replace with same 
    size 6 pane pine doors. 

    Based on the about information what should the range of per sq foot
    cost be. I am trying to get a general feel about how much the cost
    would be.

    We also want someother work perform. Any ideas on cost of these items

       * replace doors with 6 panel pine
       * fix 4'  rotting  sill
       * repair a 4 by 5 sheet rock ceiling
       * move a window over
       * put a 3 wide ice and water shield along 88 feet of roof and 
         then reshinge it
       * put a ventilation fan in a gable end
       * replace gutter

                                           Luke

    

 
    

    
    
    I dont know what area your in but you might consult with your
    local building inspecter about what would be required in this
    case or if even you would be allowed to add on.  Save yourself
    some work before you might be told NO.....
    
    JD

    
    I seem to recall about 50 to $60.00 a sq. foot for new work to be done
    to completion. Your mileage may vary...
    
    
    Bob

I received an estimate to have a 12' x 20' three season room with cathedral 
ceiling, and attached 12' x 12' deck on the back of my house.  Total cost is 
$17,000. I'd like to know if this is reasonable.  I've seen this builder's 
work and it's excellent, but I don't know if this price is reasonable or 
outrageous and would appreciate your feedback.  Specs follow:

Frame - KD lumber
Footings - 12" concrete piers
Roof - 25 yr asphalt shingle
Deck - Frame - pressure treated lumber
       Rails - Fir balusters
       Decking - 1 x 4 mahogany
Windows - Five Anderson Perma Shield Casements (screen included)
     	2 - 4x5, 3 - 5x5
Door - Crestline French door unit (3 panel door - 9' x 6'8")
Skylights - two 2'x4' Velux fixed windows.
Electrical - Install exterior spotlight, paddle fan/light, bathroom fan,
     outlets where needed, and outside GFI outlet.  Wire for thermostat
     switch.  Move doorbell.
Insulation - Walls - R-11, ceiling - R-28, floor - R - 19
Ceiling - Finish - Plaster.
Walls - Finish -Blueboard, plaster.
Addition Foundation Wall - Insulate with rigid board and board with 1x6
     pressure treated lumber.
Carpeting - Berber carpet with 1/2 rebond pad installed.
Interior Trim - Colonial casing - base.  Window sills to be extended by 3 1/2"
     	and crown molding added to support extention.
Odds and Ends - Bathroom window will be removed and plaster patched.  Also,
     	the house entrance doorway will be embellished with molding, columns,
     	and pediment treatment. (The bathroom window would have looked into
     	this new room ...we didn't think this was a great idea so we're
     	removing this window.) 

NOTE:  We're wiring the room for a thermostat for a 3rd zone, but we're not
     installing heating at this time.  Also, the room does not have a
     foundation, instead it will be on piers.  Roof is a steep pitched
     A-frame.

    the existing bathroom has a fan already?
    
    ed

    No, but since we're eliminating the window in the bathroom (since it
    would look out into the sunroom) we need to put a fan in to meet code.
    The electrician will just install and vent the fan we're getting.

    ahh, missed it when looking over the specs, sorry.
    
    ed

    39  GUMDRP::BARWISE      13-JAN-1986    23  estimating cost of addition
   101  KELVIN::RPALMER      24-MAR-1986    29  how much $$$ for an addition
  1478  3D::BOOTH             2-SEP-1987     7  New addition cost for a DIY
  1887  40111::CHENG         19-JAN-1988     3  info on building addition
  1929  MSEE::CHENG           2-FEB-1988    23  Solve my problems about adding my addition
  2273  SLDA3::MATHUR         5-MAY-1988    14  Opinion on a (lally columned) $32K addition needed
  2622  KSYSI::KELLY          8-SEP-1988     8  addition on old house
  3712  FSTVAX::BEAN         15-FEB-1990     2  advise please..new addition

    I've already done a search and read through those notes.  I'm looking
    for opinions about this specific quote.  By the way, some of those
    other notes are pretty old and I'd expect the costs are somewhat higher
    now...  Thanks for the pointers anyway!

Oh, I don't know.  It seems like an awful lot of money for a three season 
porch, but I guess you'd have to actually read all the previous notes to 
get that feeling.

Since you think your situation is special, let me give you this advise.

do what you like, nobody's going to convince you that you should do 
otherwise.

A year or so ago when we were considering building a home.....

After talking with far_too_many builders in the Southern NH area, we found a
"rule of thumb" for cost of the structure (including foundation, but not
including land) was; $65/sq ft for "normal, run of the mill quality" materials 
and labor ranging upwards of $125/sq ft for a "top quality materials and labor"

Sounds like this is in the ball-park, but I would suggest visiting a home or 
two where the builder has actually done similar work. We found more than a few 
instances where we came away with a different impression of a builder's work 
than the builder had.

Dave

    
    Could be a bit high, especially without a full foundation.
    (What does mahogany decking cost?)
    
    Did you get more than one estimate? If not, write down the exact
    specs you list here (include the pitch of the roof -- the framing
    cost can vary depending on this) and get two more contractors to
    bid on them.
    

This doesn't help you but may help me! :-)  Is your quote broken down by phases?
If so, would you mind saying how much he is charging for the porch framing?

George7 

    One option to go with is to install a gas log fireplace instead
    of hooking into the household heating system.  We did that for
    our four seasons 20' x 20' addition off the living room set up 
    on piers with half the space underneath closed off for a garden
    shed and the other half a sheltered patio area.  It was a total
    DIY except for some fixed glass over our sliding glass windows
    on the side facing the south.  We only turn on the log when we
    are out there but leave it on pilot in the winter.  Can't give
    you a cost but it is real good construction; hubby and son worked
    it out together.  I helped with a few minor things like the heavy
    cross beam placement...also, provided a ladder with a neighbors 
    help when hubby ended up swinging from a beam with no way to get
    down.  DIY can be fun at times....i.e. dangerous.

    justme....jacqui

    I know this must be in some note somewhere here...I see these types
    of analyses all the time in magazines... pls point to one if
    possible : 
    
    what is the return on investment for:
    
    additional bathroom (going from 1 bathroom to 2 bathroom home)
    additional garage (going from 1 car garage to 2 car garage)
    upgrade from galley kitchen to standard eat-in kitchen
    
    How much do I recoup by adding these when I go to sell the house
    ....(not planning on selling for quite a while, by the way)...
    

>             <<< Note 47.114 by 26115::LALIBERTE "PSG/IAE - OGO" >>>
>                    -< RETURN ON INVESTMENT FOR ADDITIONS >-

I don't have the numbers at hand, but very few "additions" return their
cost in terms of sales value of the property.
I put "additions" in quotes because some additions, often the ones 
that DO return their cost are really necessary upgrades, things that
houses are expected to have.  Not having these additions is more a depressant
to home value than adding them is an enhancement.
The one "gotta have" that you noted is the second bath (or even a half bath).

And if you're not planning on selling for a while, the added benefit/cost
analysis to consider is all about your own comfort and convenience.
That spiffy new bathroom that you build today will be just another
element that will need to be redone by the buyers if you don't sell for 
15 years.  Even in 5 years it won't be anywhere near new anymore, and won't
attract any particular attention beyond "oh, yeah, a half-bath - doesn't
every house have one?"

In short, please yourself - add the second garage if YOU'RE the one who 
doesn't like a cold car on winter mornings, or the porch if YOU'RE the one
who likes to read the paper and watch the August sun rise.

- tom]

    	re:114
    
    	I don't know where that note wound up, but I couldn't find it in 47
    or 48. From memory, I believe bathroom/kitchen upgrades were at the top 
    of the list. Porches/decks were right up there too.
    
    	I don't recall where garages were in the listing, but I think they
    were near the lower end of the list. A call to any real-estate agent
    would probably yield a list.
    
    	What a lot of this comes down to is how much you do vs. having it
    done. Obviously, having someone come in and redo a bathroom or kitchen
    will be *much* more expensive than you doing the work yourself. This 
    will also affect your ROI, since your investment is greater to have
    someone else do it.
    
    	Also, .115 brings up some good points. If you're not moving for a
    while, do what *you* want the most, regardless of the ROI. Unfortunately,
    when more than one person is involved in the decision, it can complicate
    things a bit ;-)
    
    	Ray

    According to the June issue of Home Mechanix, there's a report
    available that lists recoup and other data for 12 projects in four
    cities in the U.S. It's from Remodeling magazine and costs $8.95:
    
    	Remodeling Reprints
    	1 Thomas Circle NW - Suite 600
    	Dept. HM696
    	Washington, DC  20005
    
    	202-736-3444
    
    Home Mechanix published some of the data. Here's what they said:
    
    Bathroom Addition:
    
    Region	Job Cost	Resale Value	Cost Recouped
    
    Nat'l Avg	$11,639		$10,378		89%
    East	 12,702		 10,471		82%
    South	  9,973		 10,214	       102%
    West	 12,445		 11,709		94%
    
    Major Kitchen Remodel
    
    Nat'l Avg	$23,243		$19,797		85%
    East	 24,787		 20,185		81%
    South	 20,692		 19,463		94%
    West	 24,534		 21,463		87%
    
    They did not list a project for Garage Addition.
    
    There's quite a bit more info in the Home Mechanix article including
    the above analysis for several other projects. They said the reprint 
    from Remodeling magazine had even more.
    
    Hope this info helps.
    
    Art