Conference 7.286::home_work

If you are referring to the lever which moves a contactor over what looks
like a coiled resistor - that is the heat anticipator.  It is used to correct
for the lag time between when the burner shuts off and when the heat stops
coming into the house.  Its calibrated in amps and is basically set up based
on the type of furnace you have.  For example if you have forced hot air
heat can continue to be pumped into the house after the furnace shuts off
because the blower continues to run.  It is therefore desireable to shut
the furnace off before the house reaches the temp set on the thermostat so
when the latent heat in the firebox is removed by the blower it won't cause
the house to get hotter than what you set your thermostat to.  So the 
anticipator (which is nothing more than a resistor) adds a little local heat
to the spring coil in the the thermostat to help it move a little earlier
than what would come from the heat in the house.

If you want to play with it just remember that more amps means more heat
from the resistor - or the furnace will be shut off sooner in the cycle.
    
As for leveling I guess I would use common sense on that.  To calibrate the
thermostat you need a little wrench.  There is a nut on the shaft which
supports the metalllic element which allows you to hold the spring steady
while you move the temp adjusting arm relative to it.  Its a simple deal
- the problem is finding a wrench small enough and thin enough to fit on
the nut.

If you need any more info just give me a call.

regards,

peter 
(297-4264)

re: .1

I can't remember exactly what I did to level mine, but it was intuitively
obvious upon inspection.

As for the heat anticipator, look at the specs for your furnace, it says
somewhere in there what the setting should be.  The Honeywell is ubiquitous,
so it's a de facto standard.

-joet

If yours, like ours, has a plastic mounting, first take off the outer shield
(held in place with spring clips; just pull it off gently).  Now there's
a plastic part on which all the active components are mounted; this plastic
part is screwed onto another plastic part which itself is screwed onto the
wall.  Remove the outer, component-laden piece by removing the 2 or 3 tiny
screws holding it onto the other.  This final part, mounted directly on the
wall, has alignment marks for leveling, and should be pretty simple to adjust
unless it's grossly badly mounted.  Good luck!

---Pete

Of course, if you want it to work thereafter, you may wish to reassemble
it.

---Pete

If you own a Honeywell Chronotherm thermostat purchased circa 1980
which, like ours, has a quartz clock which fails after about 2 years
(there are lots out there), you may find that the batteries are NOT 
the problem.  The whole mechanism was made out of spec and Honeywell
will replace it for $39 exchange (!).  If you feel, as I did, that
Honeywell is making a bit of money off its own mistakes, you can try
my approach: 

Get a NiCad AAA size battery and hook in series (there is enough space,
I believe, in the compartment).  The charging circuit will handle the
extra battery and the clock should now work.  Ours has now worked for 
about a year and a half with the fix.

But before you spend money on the NiCad, check the clock and the 
batteries that are already there.  If the clock does not work with two 
or three 1.5V cells, the above fix is pointless.  Now test the batteries.
If they're at about 2.5 volts, that's correct.  Try adding a normal 1.5V 
cell in series and try to start the clock.  If it starts, the slightly 
lower voltage of the AAA NiCad will probably be okay.  If the clock 
still does not run (but did at 4.5 volts) you could add two AAA NiCad's 
or buy a second double-NiCad from a Honeywell source.  Or you could scrap
the thing and buy one of the digital weekend setbacks on sale these days.

Alex Conn

If you take it apart, as described, you will find that the plate that is
actually attached to the wall has a flat section at the top of it.  Put
a small level across that to level it.  

Steve

One small item for calibration - make sure that any hole that the wires for
the thermostat come through is plugged.  Cool air from inside the wall can
screw up the sensing of proper temperature in the room.

- peter

I just finished putting this same type thermostat in my upstairs and had
some problems.  As far as levelling, that weas no problem.  As someone 
said earlier, there is a piece of plastic which gets screwed to the wall.
There are crosshairs used for levelling so all I did was get some string
and a sinker, and matched the plate to the string.  However, when I read
the box it said it was "adjusted" at the factory.  (thats the little thing
on the bottom left).  Well, my oilmen were over the house last week putting
in baseboard heating and as soon as the boiler went on they wanted to know
what I had done recently.  I tolk them, proudly, what I had done and the
boss said the boiler was short cycling.  He sent one of his guys upstairs
and in 5 seconds, moved that thing to where it was supposed to be.  I have
oil hot water, with TECO valves and right on the Teco valve it says what
the thermostat should be set at.  Things are fine now

Rick

To set the anticipater on my thermostate, I borrowed a multimeter from a
friends.  Then I disconnected the wires from the thermostat, connected
them to the multimeter, and measured the amperage going through the wires.
I set my anticipater at this setting, (in my case, around .25 amps).  Then
I reconnected the wires to the thermostat.  The house stays at a much more
constant temperature now than before.

If you really have problems getting the thermostat to read the correct
temperature, mount a non-spring based thermometer next to the thermostat.
Ignore the thermostat's thermometer and set the thermostat at whatever
temperature is needed to keep the house at the temperature you want, as
measured by the newly mounted thermometer. 

Then again, you could ignore the thermoter altogether.  If your house is
too cold, turn up the thermostat a bit.  If it is too warm, turn it down
a bit.  Soon you will find a good setting.  Once you've found it, remember
it.  How does it help to know that the temperature for you is 68, and not
67?

						August G. Reinig

I have run across several different versions of "round" Honeywell
thermostats.  Some operate "left-to-right" and some are "right-
to-left", otherwise they are about the same. I agree that is isn't
mandatory that the "thermometer" doesn't have to be calibrated to
the "thermostat", it makes my tenants feel better if it is. So...
if thats your pleasure, the proper tool is called a "honeywell
thermostat wrench & you can get one at Somerville Lumber in Westboro
for about $0.50

    Now I have all the copper, elements and ZONE VALVES installed in
    my newly finished first floor. I used TACO 3-wire ZONE VALVES (the
    standard ones in ALL the stores). I am faced with a problem:
    I had been using a SEARS top-of-the-line DIGITAL Setback thermostat
    when I only had one zone and it worked perfect. Now I have heard
    rumoured (The guy in SEARS thinks the rumour is true) that this
    thermostat is NOT compatible with 3-wire zone valves! He said they
    sell a relay, but even that wouldn't help...
    
    Any comments? Should I sell the DIGITAL and get a mechanical setback?
    
    M
    

    The TACO zone valves work on 24-volts and I'm pretty sure that
    the Sears ones are a millivolt system.  You can however find
    digital setback thermostats that work on 24 volts.
    
    -al

    
    I just bought a SEARS Weekender II digital set back thermostat,
    and it works great so far, and I'm sure that it said that it works
    on 24 volt systems (range of 17-30v), and NOT on Milliampere systems
    The wiring instructions also said something about the 3 wire setup
    and relay.  Mine is a standard 2 wire job.  Check the installation
    instructions again for your Weekender to make sure.
    
    

    The zone valves are 24V but they have a thermal device inside that
    intermittently cuts the power to the thermostat circuit causing
    problems for some digital types.
    
    See note 397.48 for more info. 
    
    - Rich

    i recently bought a house with an older (not digital) honeywell
    thermostat in it, the kind that automatically shuts down twice
    a day.  it worked fine at first, but when i set it forward for
    daylight savings time it went wacky.  i set it correctly, by
    moving the hour hand forward as per instructions, but i noticed
    later that the clock was running backwards!  since then, by
    playing with the hands, i can make it go either forward or reverse,
    but never at the proper speed (always too slow).
    
    with the warmer weather coming, but not yet, i would like to fix
    it.  if i remove the clock portion will i be able to use the
    rest of the thermostat, or should i wait until the summer when
    i won't have to.
    
    can i repair/replace the clock portion, or should i invest in a
    completely new thermostat?  manually overriding the unit to not
    shut down on weekends doesn't bother me, this unit is functional
    enough as is.
    
    thanks
    
    brian

    The one I have (which sounds an awful lot like yours) says
    that in order to advance the time, you should move the minute
    hand forward, causing the hour hand to follow behind.  It may
    be that moving the hour hand caused a problem with the timing
    mechanism in the clock - or it may just have been ready to break
    on its own - and you just helped it along.  I'm not sure about
    taking the clock off and leaving the thermostat still attached,
    although I'd be tempted to disconnect the power wires before
    taking it apart (not because of shock, but of surges to the
    furnace...).
    
    If it were me, I'd probably opt to buy a new digital one, and
    get the nice, quiet operation of one of those (but then again,
    I like to spend $$$ :-) ).  Anyone else taken one of these
    apart?
    
    andy
    

Check CONSUMER notes file, and Consumer Reports- theres quite a
discussion of digital thermostats.  Concept is simple, but they don't
seem to have worked the bugs out of them yet.  The key problems seem
to be that their temperature sensors have less play, they haven't
quite got the hang of running them off system power, and many have
cheap electronics to stay in a reasonable price range.  Go for a
Honeywell mechanical with multiple pins. 

    sorry .1, i moved the minute hand, not the hour hand.  as for
    honeywell mechanical units, this is one, and i'm not impressed.
    
    i'll mosey over to the consumer notes file (where is it?) and see
    which electronic unit is the best.

Press your KeyPad 7 to add this entry to your notebook.

    
    Theres only one thing to do Brian.............Sell the house!!
    
    Dickie

    I have the new-fangled thermostats with the multicolored sensing
    strips for a thermometer.  You can never tell what the room 
    temperature is.  I just move the little doohickey up or down as
    required.  I have noticed that it goes quite a bit higher on the
    damp unpleasant days. (70 degrees is not necessarily warm - it 
    depends on the humidity!)

    I have a Honeywell Chronotherm set-back thermostat and it works
    well (after having replaced the clock mechanism twice).  My problem
    is that some of my FHW pipes run through inaccessible areas in the
    basement and are prone to freezing during cold winter nights.  What
    I would like to do is bypass the thermostat contacts with a timer
    so that (for example) every 10-15 minutes, the circulator will come
    on for 1-2 minutes, just to keep the pipes from freezing. 
    
    1. Are there any problems with this type of solution?
    
    2. What sort of clock/timer should I use? I have heard that such
       a device exists, but I would imagine that a specialty item would
       run big bucks. Could I build my own digital device to drive a
       relay in parallel with the thermostat contacts?
    
    3. How do I know what the timer duty-cycle should be ("on" time
       vs. "off" time), and how often should the circulator come on?
    
    Dave Busch

    I build just such a device for my father a few years ago.  Since
    you're not looking for the most accurate device, it can be built
    with a simple 555 timer, a relay and a couple of resistors and caps.
    
    It's very simple to do.  You can run it in parallel with the zone
    valves to turn on whatever valves you want.
    
    I got the time by going down to the cold basement, turning on the
    circulator and then measuring how long it took for the pipes to
    get 'cold' I then took a few minutes off (for REALLY cold days)
    and set the thing up.
    
    -bill

    Wouldn't heat tape be easier?

 Re .2
    
    No, heating tape wouldn't be easier. First of all, I would need
    a lot of it, and second of all, a lot of the pipes are inaccessible,
    ie. behind walls and above ceilings.  In one case last year, one
    of the radiators actually got clogged with ice. No, the room didn't
    actually get that cold but the pipe directly below it in the basement,
    right next to an outside wall did.
    
 Re .1
    
    About how much time did you need for the "off/on" cycles?  Can a
    555 timer be relied on for periods as long as 10-15 minutes or
    whatever?
    
    Dave

    I just got a call from my oil company with the answer to my questions.
    There is a device from American Stabillis Co. called "Freeze Guard"
    which they will install for me for a mere $100 + about 4 hours labor
    (figure a total of about $250).  They also said "on for 1 minute,
    off for 10 minutes".  That clinched it for me. 
    
    Dave
    
    (Let's see now, where's my Radio Shack catalog.)
                                    
    

    My fathers was on for 1 minutes, off for an hour.  That seemed to
    work, and a large part of the zone that he was concerned about was
    in an unheated basement, with no internal(to the house) doors, etc.
    It was only accessable through a (very poorly insulated) external
    door.
    
    When I think about it, one of the resistors in the timer circuit
    was something like 10Mohm. (quite a lot) 
    
    Timing is not really all that critical.  He used this thing for
    a few years, then the zone valve broke.  He then just replaced the
    zone valve with a regular valve (they don't use that part of the
    house much) and closed it 'almost all the way' so that just a trickle
    goes through when any other zone comes on.
    
    
    (Get a national databook on the 555, there's formuals for computing
    the R and C values.  It's really simple when you get down to it)
    
    
    -bill

    	I would like to have a thermostat that could be set below 55
    degrees, the unit at my cottage can only be set as low as 55.  Do
    they make thermostats that can be set lower???  My reasoning is
    that all I want to do is protect the pipes from freezing while I'm
    not there, but the temp actually could go much lower w/out freezing
    the pipes and save much fuel.  Has anybody else been faced w/ this
    delemma???
     

    I think that I have seen the kind of thing that you are looking
    for.  Only, as far as I can tell it is not a thermostat, but a switch.
     The switch will come on at a given temperature.  I just saw the
    thing in a Sporty's tool shack catalogue.  They have a toll free
    number they can be reached at, but you'll have to get it from toll
    free directory assistance.  (800-555-1212)

    Yes, you can buy low-temperature thermostats.  I've got one in my
    basement, made by Honeywell.  I don't recall just what its range
    is, but I think it's 40-65 or thereabouts.  Anybody who sells
    Honeywell thermostats ought to have one, or be able to order one
    for you.

Another trick to use is put put a low wattage lamp under the thermostat.
It will keep the area around the thermostat warmer than the rest 
of the building, fooling the thermostat.
There are also special collars you can buy to mount at the thermostat
that have the heater built in.

    Residential thermostats used to have 55 as the low end of their
    range prior to the first OPEC-engineered oil crisis in 1974.  
    Since then, even the standard new-construction thermostats go
    lower, at least to 50, several into the 40s.  You should have
    no trouble finding a lower range thermostat at a local shop.
    
    pbm
    

    However remember, particularly if you can get the temperature down
    in the 30s or 40s, that the temperature near the thermostat can
    be several degrees warmer than the temperature around the water
    pipes.
    
    Another solution is to heat the water pipes directly and turn the
    thermostat off entirely.  Also, see some of the notes about winterizing
    cottages.
    
    Clay

Something that I had wanted to do but never did was to simply tilt the 
thermostat.  In case you don't know, many (at least the "standard" honeywell
home model) have a tube filled with Mercury that tilts as it expands.  When the
temperature gets too low, the Mercury makes electrical contact and turns on the
furnace.

I guess the only question is how far below the 55 degrees will the spring 
continue to move.

-mark

    
    I have the Standard Honeywell thermostats in my house. I've seen
    exact replacements at True Value. These thermostats go down to 50.
    Unfortunatly they are a piece of sh*t. I can set it at 55 and it'll
    get down to below freezing and the heat won't kick on. If I set
    it at 58 the heat will turn on. And if I set it pass 62 the heat
    won't turn off even if its 90. So now I heat with wood and I can
    regulate the heat in my house better with the WBS then with the
    individual thermostats in each room.
    
    Mike

    Jimmy,Jimmy,Jimmy, nice to hear that other people have HUMAN problems!
    The latest dilemma I've been faced with is waking up in the morning.
    Sorry I can't help with this problem, but It's nice to here from
    you anyway.
    P.S. As you may surmise, I'm new at this and just trying to get the
    *GIST* of it. Keep in touch!
    
    John                         

    
    re .9
    
    "A defective thermostat". How could this be??? Everyone works like
    this, in my house and my tenents. This is a total of 14 thermostats
    and everyone works the way I described it. You mean to tell me that
    all 14 are defective in the same way???
    
    Mike

    If all thermostats do the same thing, perhaps the anticipator is
    set incorrectly for the furnace you have. You may want to check
    into that.
    
    Eric

    Honeywell makes "industrial"-type T-stats which are adjustable for
    the range you buy it for. I recall seeing a 'stat that had a range
    comparable to the actual temperature variations of New England.
    We (Field Service) had bought it to do a thermal shutdown of a
    DECsystem-10 in the event of a site experiencing a loss of cooling.
    The size of the unit was about 2X2X6 and it had a grey metal cover
    with a quality temperature setting dial visible through a small
    punched-out window in the front. Unfortunately, there was no
    thermometer built-in.
    
    Mike

    
    re .12
    
    Please reread the my note. I don't have a furnace. The thermostats
    in question are controlling baseboard heat in each room. There are
    a total of 14 thermostats, that operate indivudally the same way.
    
    Mike

My heat is also electric baseboard with Honeywell thermostats.  Although
I only have two, they both work fine, and therefore I expect that those
that do not, are defective.  I would send mine back if they worked like
the ones mentioned in earlier replies.

Bob

    RE: Diamond
    
    Check the electric boxes which hold the T-stats in the walls for
    evidence of massive air-infiltration! Seal all wire passages thru
    the box with RTV, and seal the box into the wall (around its perimeter)
    with RTV as well. Hopefully, you have plastic boxes. If you have
    metal, you are almost out of luck. 
    
    This method also works much better than "Draft Dodgers" seals that
    you buy to place between your switch/receptacle plates and the box/wall
    if you are lucky enough to be in possesion of plastic boxes.
    
    Mike

    I looked at /title="thermostat" and couldn't find this mentioned
    anywhere.  I'm looking for a thermostat switch device to plug an oil
    filled heater into.  I just need it to switch on at a preset
    temperature, then off when the temperature drops below the preset
    number.  The "thermostat" that the heater comes with is not very
    temperature sensitive.  Anyone seen such an animal? 
                                                
    I did see a note somewhere recently mentioning a Sporty's catalogue
    but no phone number or location of Sporty's.

    Sporty's (they cater mainly to egotisitical private pilots) is
    in Batavia, Ohio.  You can probably get their number from 
    Directory Assistance and then ask them for a catalog.
    
    pbm
    ex-pilot
    

    This kind of thermostat is used for "salamander" kerosene heaters.
    Any store that has salamanders will have them.  E.g., Grossman's,
    Somerville Lumber, etc, etc
    

    
>     I'm looking for a thermostat switch device to plug an oil
    
    If all else fails, try and find an old thermostat for electric
    baseboard heat, a bit overated but it should work...
    
    

You can also get a thermostat-style extension cord from most hardware
dealers that sell kerosene space heaters... (the commercial construction
type).   Its just an extension cord with a thermostate.  They run 
about $30 though.

Bob

P.S.  Private pilots arn't egotistical...  But ex-pilots are always jealous
      of them anyway...  8^)

Hi Jim, 

>    I looked at /title="thermostat" and couldn't find this mentioned
>    anywhere.  

And if you were to do dir/title=thermostat right now, you still wouldn't 
find it, yes?

I've seen things simialr to what is described in the previous replies, but 
none of the ones I've seen let you adjust the temperature at which the 
kick in or out.  It sounds like you want to be able to set the limits 
and have them be very accurate, is that true?  

					>>>==>PStJTT

    
    If I was going to use the electric heat I'd have the thermostats
    checked out/fixed. But I now heat with wood, and I don't ever turn
    on the electric heat because the woodstove easily heats the whole
    house. To replace all the thermostats would cost about what I paid
    for stove and chimney. If I was to replace the thermostats I'd go
    with another manufacturer or at least a different model #. 
    
    Mike

>>    I looked at /title="thermostat" and couldn't find this mentioned
>>    anywhere.  
 
>And if you were to do dir/title=thermostat right now, you still wouldn't 
>find it, yes?
 
    Good point, Pat.  I modified the title.
    
>I've seen things simialr to what is described in the previous replies, but 
>none of the ones I've seen let you adjust the temperature at which the 
>kick in or out.  It sounds like you want to be able to set the limits 
>and have them be very accurate, is that true?  
 
    I just want them to be fairly accurate.  I guess you'd call that
    setting something like variance. I've found that what most space
    heaters call thermostats aren't accurate at all.  I get the impression
    they're based on the temperature of the heating unit, not the room.  I
    just want something to keep the room between 70-72 degrees. 
    
    I'll try Somerville Lumber based on the previous recommendations.
    Thanks.

    My search has been fruitless.  I checked Somerville Lumber, True Value
    and finally, my local electrical supply house.  The only thing that
    comes close is some sort of safeguard device that you can set at a low
    temperature to ensure that some minimal heat is being provided.  This
    would be helpful to protect plumbing in a summer cottage, for instance.
    I don't think anyone makes what I'm looking for.  

    I have a question for all of you - I have a Honeywell thermostat
    in my newly acquired house (May).  This is the first winter I have
    been in the house.  I have steam heat, and when I turn the thermostat
    up, the furnace goes on - yeah!  But then the furnace goes off before
    the required temperature (according to the thermometer on the
    thermostat).  I generally keep the thermostat at 58 degrees.  The
    thermometer normally reads around 60 degrees.  When I turn the heat
    up when I get home, I hear the furnace go on.  But when I check
    the thermostat later in the evening, the thermometer still reads
    at most 62 or 64 degrees.  Yet the furnace has cycled off.
    
    What I am unsure of is whether I should replace the thermostat.
     I put a new Honeywell in a duplex I own and had no problems (at
    least the tenants haven't complained).  So I have no problem putting
    a new one in.  I just don't want to spend the money if I don't have
    to.
    
    As a second point.  My duplex is gas-fired FHA.  When I installed
    the new thermostat, I made sure the furnace went on at the correct
    temperature.  But I did not mess with the little duhikey on the
    lower left.  I understand that this will control the cycling of
    the furnace, but I could not find on the furnace where the proper
    setting was listed.  Unfortunately I don't have the books for the
    furnace.  So, I hoped that the factory setting would be good enough.
    If I am wrong, will this cause undue harm to the furnace, or just
    some discomfort for the tenants (a little warmer than they might
    care for or a little cooler than they might care for)?
    
    Ed..
    

    Re .11 -- this same problem happened to my steam system about three
    weeks ago. I, too, thought it was the thermostat, and replaced it.
    However, the problem persisted, and the house got pretty cold, so
    I called the gas company. 
    
    Their service man came, and based on my description of the problem
    (furnace cycling off before desired temperature is reached), knew
    exactly where to look. 
    
    I'm not sure what the actual unit is called, but there is some sort
    of pressure safety switch (attached to the furnace) that shuts off 
    the boiler when a certain pressure is reached.  Mine was clogged 
    and misadjusted, causing the problem.  
    
    I watched him clean and adjust it, and it seemed very easy. I hesitate
    to offer DIY instructions though, as I'm not sure of all of the safety
    precautions taken, other than shutting off the power to the furnace.
    
    My pressure safety switch is a Honeywell. It has a gray sheet metal
    box with a window showing a scale from 0 - 5 (in psi, I believe). A 
    copper pipe goes from the box into the boiler, and wires go to either 
    the burner or the furnace switch. 
    
    On mine, the copper pipe was clogged with black gunk, and the switch
    was set to 1 instead of 3. The service man disassembled the pipe
    (threaded w/elbow) and blew it out (yes, with his mouth!) and adjusted
    the switch.  $35 for the 15 minute job. 
    
    Perhaps another noter can offer some expertise on whether this
    (clogged/misadjusted switch) is actually *your* problem, and if so,
    perhaps offer DIY instructions. 
    
    Good luck, and try to stay warm in the meantime. 
    
    Joe
    

    W.W. Grainger has all kinds of line voltage thermostats. Ranges for
    the simple ones can be 35-90 degrees @ $12. They even have one that
    goes from -10 to 95 degrees.

                I too had the problem of determining what to set that
        little control to in a new installation where the info wasn't
        available. I found out that if you have an AC milliammeter (Make
        SURE it is for AC!!) that you can determine the setting by
        turning the thermostat down untill the furnace is off and then
        putting the ammeter across the switch. The furnace should turn
        on, and now by reading the ammeter, you have the number that you
        were looking for.
                
                The setting of that control is important. When the
        people who installed the new furnace put the thermostat in
        place, they didn't. The system did not run right! (I don't
        remember specific problems, but it was obvious that it wasn't
        right.) After setting that control, it now reacts properly. (I
        think it was either distinct over or under  shoot of the desired
        temp.)
                
                /s/     Bob

    Thanks for the suggestions.  I have not had the furnace checked
    by the gas company.  I just bought the house in May, as I indicated
    earlier.  I would probably have been smart to have at least one
    routine maintenance call prior to the winter.  I have succeeded
    in getting the heat to bring the house temperature to a reasonable
    level.  The thermostat seems to be working ok now.  I am going to
    watch it closely and see if it starts acting up again.  This may
    indeed be a sign of something clogged in the furnace.  Also, I seem
    to get alot of dirty water showing in the filler tube.  Each time
    I check the furnace, I run the blowout until the water clears up
    some.  Sometimes it seems that I have to almost empty the boiler
    to get the water to become clearer.
    
    When I use the blow-out, I always shut the emergency switch off
    so that I don't crack the boiler when I refill it.
    
    Would the dirty water be a sign of something dirty or clogged in
    the furnace itself?  I think the boiler is about 1.5 or 2 years
    old.  Or is it normal for the water to usually be dirty-looking?
    
    Ed..
    

    Can you help with their location or a distributor in the northeast?

    W.W. GRAINGER locations:
    
    
    Woburn
    31 Cabot Road
    tel. 617-935-8808
    
    Worcester
    209 Brooks St.
    tel. 508-853-7300
    
    Manchester,N.H.
    370 E. Industrial DR.
    tel 603-668-7161
    

    We seem to have a problem with our thermostat.  The heat turns on and
    off, but the fan doesn't. This is a single-zone FHA system.
    
    There are two fan settings: AUTO and ON.  When we set it to ON, the fan
    comes on.  When we set it to AUTO the fan never comes on.  This seems
    to happen when it's very cold outside.
    
    The heating/cooling unit is outside of our home.
    
    Is it time for a new thermostat?

    Nope.  There is a control in the furnace which turns the fan on
    (in the AUTO position) when the plenum gets to a certain temperature.
    The idea is to run the fan when the heat exchanger is hot, as opposed
    to when the gas is on (there is a delay).
    
    Try turning the "FAN" control down a few degrees if you can find
    it.    Sounds like the setting is marginal.   Cold weather can indeed
    exacerbate the problem particularly if the furnace is in an unheated
    garage or basement.

    I finally got around to calling Grainger and they didn't have what
    I'm looking for.  They recommended Star Sales and they didn't have
    it either.  This is just a note to let you know that if you're in
    the market for a device described in .0, don't bother looking for
    one.

    I have a Honeywell thermostat that bit the dust after 1 year.  I recall
    a parts list and ordering info being included with the unit, but I
    can't find it.  Does anyone have an 800 number for Honeywell ?  I'd
    prefer to replace whats broken rather than buying a new unit.
    
    Thanks,
    	Denise
    	297-5032
    

    Replacement parts and information, are available from Honeywell
    Inc., 8941 Tenth Avenue North, Golden Valley, Minnesota 55427,
    Attention Customer Service Dept.
    
    There Consumer Affairs Dept., can be reached at (612)542-7339.
    
    I replaced my Honeywell, with a Robertshaw and still have the old
    one kicking around.  Also, the 56 page instructions, that came with
    it.  Your welcome to any or all of it.  FREE
    
    Al Bishop
    DTN 242-2901

    Here's an updated address and phone number for Honeywell:

	Consumer Affairs Dept.
	Honeywell Inc.
	1885 Douglas Drive North
	Golden Valley MN  55422-4386

	800-468-1502 Mon-Fri 7:30-4:00 Central time

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I need to connect a Thermostat for my evaporative cooler. For those of 
you not familiar with evap coolers, they cool by trickling water over 
filter pads and drawing air thru the pads. The evaporation of the 
water cools the air. Works great in low humidity environments like 
Phoenix.

At any rate, the switch that I currently have allows me to select hig 
or low blower speed, water pump on/off, in any combination. The blower 
moter is a 1HP 115VAC single phase and draws about 14.5A on high 
speed.

I can find thermostats made for evap coolers, but they don't seem to 
be rated high enough. I found one with all the bells and whistles, but 
it's only rated for a 3/4 hp motor.

I found another that said on the outside of the package "22AMPS, 
115VAC"... but on the inside of the cover plate it said "MAX 1/2 HP 
motor", and on the MicroSwitch inside, it said "1/4 HP". 

The only real soultion I can find is to covert everything over to low 
voltage. They make a kit for about $80 that contains the low coltage 
thermostat, transformer, relays, box, etc. But that means a major 
rewiring job.

How do any of you feel about using the "22Amp" thermostat to control a 
motor that draws 14.4A (max, except for startup current), although 
internally it's rated 14-1/2 HP ?? How about a thermostat rated 3/4 HP 
to control a 1HP motor ?? Or should I bite the bullet and convert to 
low voltage ??

Thanks

Arlan


P.S. Also posted in CSOA1::ELECTRO_HOBBY

Arlan,

We had a mobile home in San Jose that had a swamp cooler. I
replaced the switch with a 110 V timer and a single-pole, double
throw switch to facilitate the two speed function of the blower.
I set the timer to turn on at 3Pm so that the house would be
cooled by 4 pm when I arrive home. The timer turned off at 11PM.

The other way is to get a heat/cool thermostat and a relay to
power the 110VAC to the swamp cooler. My FHA furnace had a
low voltage contact on it to turn the compressor of the a/c ON.
With some thinking, you could do the samething.

cal

    Does anyone have any information regarding the preparation
    of a house for storage?
    
    I know someone who will be leaving town for a couple years 
    and want to prepare the house for storage.  I guess someone 
    will be coming by at least once every couple weeks, but 
    nobody will be living there (should they consider renting 
    the house out as an alternative?  I'm not sure they want to
    do this as they've got lots-o-stuff in the house, and I don't
    think they want to put it in storage.)
    
    They live in a climate similar to that of Nashua, and some
    of the vitals of the house are as follows:
    
    	o Has both forced hot water and 
    	  forced hot air heat (gas).
    
    	o The stove is gas.
    
    	o They have an in-ground pool which they will leave
    	  covered.  The fence has a lock but is only four-feet
    	  tall.
    
    	o They will be leaving their cars, but someone will
    	  come by every couple weeks to take them for a spin.
    
    	o I don't think they plan to heat the house in the 
    	  winter.
    
    Any help would be greatly appreciated.
    
    Will
    
    PS - They're taking off at the beginning of September,
    	 so timely advice would be great!
    

    Not heating a house subjected to a Nashua winter is just begging for
    a broken pipe.
    
    They must leave the water on so that when the traps eventually dry out
    they can be replenished. (Better yet, BEFORE they dry out.) A dry trap
    equals sewer gas in the house...)
    
    Edd

    
    Would they consider a house sitter?  Someone they know and trust?
    
    CQ

    I'd strongly urge getting somebody to live there.  Letting a house
    just sit seems to cause deterioration all out of proportion to the
    length of time involved.  Besides, an "abandoned" house is an open
    invitation to burglars, vandals, and others.
    
    But...if I were going to do it, I'd consider leaving the heat on,
    set at 50 degrees or something.  Leave the power on.  Get somebody
    to go over every day in winter to check.  I guess one can get
    low-temperature alarms that one might be able to set up to auto-dial
    a number if power/heat were lost, which would lessen the chore of
    checking.

    The owners should be advised to check with their insurance company
    to understand what's required to maintain coverage.  Some companies
    won't provide coverage on an empty house unless it is all boarded
    up.
    

    re: .4
    Good point.  My insurance company won't cover an empty house after
    30 days.  I ran into this a few years ago when I took a month-long
    trip to Australia.  We didn't have a problem because we had somebody
    coming to stay in the house, but otherwise we would have.

How 'bout stacking all the furniture in the center of the room under plastic
to protect it from water damage from broken pipes or windows.  :-(

-Bob

    
    When my parents used to go to Florida for the winter, they would
    winterize their Mass. home ...
    
    We would open a spigot in the basement and drain the water lines,
    (water was shut off) then blow the lines out with a compressor.
    We would then fill the traps with RV antifreeze. They had a FHA
    system so that was not a concern. They would leave the door open
    the the attic for ventalation, plus a couple inconspicuous windows
    slightly open at the top with wood strips tacked into the jams so
    they could not be opened from the outside. Also moth balls through
    out the house in aluminum pie plates. 
    
    They never had a problem and they did this for at least 5 years in
    a row. Like I said though, it was just from October to May.
    
    ace
    

    When I left the house empty for a while, I had a cat sitter coming over
    every day.  the insurance company said that that was sufficient to make
    it "not empty."
    
    ed

>    When I left the house empty for a while, I had a cat sitter coming over
>    every day.  the insurance company said that that was sufficient to make
>    it "not empty."

Did you get it in writing, and from someone authorized to make that claim?
And how long was "a while"?
Two weeks and two years are pretty different time frames,
and even a daily visit of only 5 or 10 minutes won't deter vandals
or thieves, and probaly won't suffice to detect any progressive
damage (slowly leaking pipes, gradual insect infestation, etc.

Rent the house out or sell it.

- tom]

unless they meant having the cat in the house made it 'not empty'...:-)

A lion or tiger would certainly discourage burglars.  Might scratch the
furniture, though.

    Well folks:
    
    Thanks for the replies!  My parents (those are the one's who are
    taking off for a couple years) decided to have someone house-sit
    for them.  After weighing all the possibilities of damage and theft,
    they decided it would cheaper to pay a professional house sitter
    to live there.
    
    Will
    
    PS - A guard cat is definitely out of the question.  Those who know
    	 me will know why...
    
    		"FSSSSSST!  OUTTA HERE YOU STUPID *!@$&^$ FURBALL!"

    
    It has been my experience that the one of the loose link in electrical
    fixtures in the  home are thermostats. The problems range from
    poor calibration to complete failure.
    
    I am looking for a replacement for one of my wall thermostats for 
    the an electric baseboard heat. The house has MEARA thermostats
    installed. I have found them to malfunction and break. I have 5 
    upstairs and have already needed to replace 1 that completely
    broke. I replaced that one with a CADET last year. I just found
    out that MEARA makes those also. The inner mechanism are the same
    with just a different cover is what the electrical supply people
    said and that MEARA makes other anonymous brands. One guy said that
    breaking thermostats is what keeps them in business. 
    
    The manufacturers of thermostats should know how to make a well
    built thermostat by now even an economically priced one. 
    
    Any suggestions on some decent quality wall mounted thermostats for 
    electric basement heat.
    
    Darryl
    

    
    Hi,
    
    	Honeywell makes a thermostat with a small thermometer built
    in that works well and lasts. I use them for upgraded electric heat
    installs (If there really is such a thing :8")) where the customer
    does not like the look of the the plain old Meara's or whatever.
    	I have had very good results from the Honeywell, never have
    had to replace one under a warrantee, can't say the same for
    some of the other brand electric heat thermostats.
    
    	I was paying about 13.00 dollars for them a couple of years
    ago. I would think that they have not gone up too much. Most large
    electrical and or heating specialty shops can get these for you.
    
    

    The writelock message has been removed from this note.  The other
    thermostat notes did not discuss wall mounted, electric baseboard heat
    thermostats, electronic or otherwise.
    
    Feel free to offer your ideas and suggestions here for suppliers,
    manufactures and methods here.
    
    Bruce [co-moderator]
    

    I used an Intertherm "Pulse Power" (I think) thermostat for
    my last basement remodeling project.  The unit is completely
    electronic (no moving parts to wear out with the exception of
    the temperature selector dial).
    
    Since it senses temperatures electronically, it eliminates a
    lot of the fluctuation in temperature which you see with a
    mechanical thermostat; the result is the room is maintained
    at a more even temperature.
    
    The unit was somewhat expensive, about $45, but I thought it
    performed well and would probably last almost forever.

  When I wanted to buy the Intertherm unit at Somerville Lumber, I was
  told that (1) they were unreliable (several returned units), (2) they
  weren't significantly more effective than conventional thermostats in
  controlling temperature fluctuations, and (3) they weren't worth the
  high price. So SL stopped carrying them.

  I don't know if any of the above is actually true, or if SL might have
  some other reason for not carrying them, which they didn't feel like
  telling me. However they still carry the Intertherm liquid-filled
  baseboard units ("SoftHeat" or something like that), so it evidently
  wasn't the company they had problems with.

  I don't know of anyone who has experience with both the Intertherm
  electronic unit and a conventional unit in the same room to say
  whether they've noticed a difference, though there may be. The claims
  made for the unit are plausible, but so are the claims from SL.

  Since we're on this timely subject, can anyone recommend an automatic
  setback thermostat 110/220V control circuits? All of the setback units
  I've seen are for low voltage control circuits.

    
    I made some random phone calls to a couple electricians and was told
    that Honeywell is pretty good.
    
    Since I need to fix at least one thermostat now, I bought the Honeywell
    at McNally's in Worcester,Ma. There price was $30. At other places I 
    called, it was 40 to 43 dollars. McNally's seems like a nice wholesale 
    place.
    
    My old thermostat was a Mears that has three leads that hooks to a
    red, black and white wire. The Honeywell has 4 leads, which I am told
    is compatible. The 4 leads are L1, L2 on one side and M1 and M2 on the
    other. How should the 4 wire thermostat be connected to the 3 wires ?
    
    
    I have no familiarity with Intertherm.
    
    I'd be curious to know if the thermostat makers are mainly U.S.
    based companies. It seems like an ideal market for the Japanese.
    Maybe if there is more competition, there can be better products.
    at reasonable prices.
    
    Any knowledge on how and where to find quality thermostats or
    any discussions of the pros and cons of various technologies used
    for them is appreciated. 
    
    Darryl
    
    
    

  On the three-wire thermostat, the white goes to neutral, the black to
  the incoming hot line, and the red to the load to be controlled.

  The new four-wire thermostat will have a wiring diagram showing you
  how to connect it in a three-wire configuration. Two of the wires (one
  L and one M) will get connected to neutral. The others will go to line
  and load. Not sure which, but if there's a relay or other internal
  circuitry, it will make a difference.

  I believe that the circuitry in most of the low-voltage setback
  thermostats is manufactured in the Far East. Have no fear, they've
  already got the market.

    Honeywell makes a set-back thermostat for line voltages. I bought 1
    last winter and liked it so much that I bought 2 more. I got them
    thru McNally's in Worcester. They don't have them in stock but will
    order them. It's about a week for delivery and the cost was about
    $70-75. They are programable and have a digital clock. I think the set 
    back is done with a stepper motor. It hold a very consistant
    temperature and is a far cry from the consistancy of the mechanical
    line voltage therostats. 

You can also use a low-voltage thermostat in conjunction with a transformer/
relay, such as Sears sells.

			Steve

    Yeah, .8 is right.  I'd be interested to see why .4 wants to use a line
    voltage unit vs a low voltage one.  As a firefighter I want to run as
    little 120/240 as possible!  Unfortunately, I live in a 250 year old
    house, but if I were adding \ANYTHING/ new it would be low voltage.  I
    can't recall a structure fire started by low voltage, but I can't
    recall a year we didn't lose a house due to an electrical fire.

  I don't WANT to use a line-voltage thermostat, but that's what was
  installed less than a year ago by a licensed electrician, to control
  220V electric baseboard units. What's interesting is that the
  line-voltage thermostat doesn't even control the heating units
  directly; it only operates a relay. The relay could have been a low
  voltage model (far as I know, at least). Honestly, I don't know why it
  was done that way. I did happen to ask why, and he said: that's the
  way it's done. Good luck.

  I would hope that if firefighters feel strongly about this, that they
  petition their colleagues who establish the State and National
  Electrical Codes, to eliminate line-voltage thermostats. Personally, I
  don't see how a line-voltage thermostat is any MORE of a hazard, when
  properly installed, than any other line-voltage wiring in a house. I
  agree, though: the less, the better. No need to use 110V for control
  functions.

    I recently had my basement finished and put another heating zone in. 
    The heat is forced hot water by gas.  In the process of adding the new
    zone I had the contractor put zone valves on my heating system to
    control the first and second floor.  The problem: the thermostat on the
    first floor no longer behaves that same way.
    
    The first floor thermostat is made by Honeywell and is rectangular, not
    round (sorry, I don't know the model).  The thermometer used to match
    pretty closely to the thermostat setting.  Now, in the morning after
    the thermostat has been set on 71 all night the thermometer reads 65
    and the heat is not on.
    
    My questions: Did the introduction of the zone valve do anything to my
    heating system I was not aware of?  Is this really just a matter of
    recalibrating the thermometer and thermostat?  If so, any
    recommendation on how to do it?  
    
    I read about leveling earlier, but don't believe this is a problem
    since the thermostat was never moved.  My contractor says eveything
    works fine.  However his test consists of cranking the heat to 80 and
    seeing if things warm up.  Any suggestions would be appreciated.
    
    Thanks,
    
    	- Tom

        I'm making a couple of assumptions here.  One; there was
    previously one zone, no valves just the pump.  Two; there are
    now three zones, one pump, three valves.  The second floor
    thermostat was not changed or otherwise disturbed.

        The 'stats now control the valves rather than the pump
    directly.  When a 'stat calls for heat it signals the valve
    to open.  Once the valve is open it closes the circuit to
    start the pump.  There may be other types, but this is what I
    am familiar with.

        My idea of a test is - turn basment and first floor
    'stats as far down as they will go so they are not calling
    for heat.  Set the second floor 'stat at max.  If the pump is
    running and no heat, the valve fails to open.  If the pump is
    not running, it would appear that the valve switch is not
    connected to the pump circuit or the valve did not open
    fully.


    Peter Duke

You need to adjust the thermostat's anticipator.  Take a look at the zone
valve.  There should be an amp rating on it (if it's a TACO, it's probably
0.9).  Adjust the anticipator so it matches this rating.

RE: .1
    
    Your assumptions are correct.  There was previously only one zone
    controled by the thermostat on the first floor.  There are now: one
    pump, three zones (thermostats), and three valves.  The second floor
    and basement thermostats were added as were the three zone valves.
    
    I believe the contactor verified that the zone valves work by doing
    exactly what you suggested.  My real problem (if you can call it that)
    is pyschologically setting the heat on 85 on the first floor to get the
    room temp to 68.
    
RE: 2.
    
    I will check the anticipator and make sure the ratings match.
    
    Thanks,
    
    	- Tom

I just installed two TACO zone valves to split my single zone circulator
into two zones, just as you have.

I've found that even though the TACO zone vales are rated at .9 amps, they
do not draw .9 amps continuously.  They use a "thermal motor" to open the
zone valves, and these consume more than .9 amps for the two minutes
it takes them to open them.  After the zone valve opens, they cycle on and off
and probably consume a lot less than .9 amps on the average.

This wreaks havoc with anticipators.  They expect a constant current flow.
What happens with the TACO valves is that the initial warm-up period will
heat up the anticipator enough in the first two minutes to make the thermostat
turn off, thus never even making it the point of having any circulation at all.

What you are seeing is that you need to turn the thermostat up high enough
to overcome the heat from the anticipator in order to get the valve to get
open all the way and start the circulation.

I have two different thermostats:  One has a fixed anticipator and the other
has a variable one.  The variable one had no setting (except anticipator off)
that would allow the heat to come on.  The fixed one was a little better, but
still the heat shut off soon after it came on (30 seconds or so).  The fixed
anticipator used two diodes shunting the anticipator to provide a constant
voltage to the anticipator.  This works well, except that it doesn't take
into account the two-minute delay in the opening of the zone valve...
The variable anticipator does not have the diodes but relies on you to set
the anticipator to the correct current setting.

The simplest solution is to disable the anticipators.  What this means is
that the temperature will vary somewhat more, but at least it will be within
a couple of degrees of the setting.  If you have a variable anticipator,
move the lever to the maximum setting.  If it is fixed, short it out.

I haven't found the ideal solution, and would like to know if there *is*
a recommended solution.

What I've done is added a 2 ohm resistor in series with the fixed anticipator
element, thus decreasing the current for the constant voltage.  This seems
to have delayed the anticipation enough to make it useful again.  I plan
on rewiring the other variable antipator in the same manner, adding two
diodes and a 2 ohm resistor.

The resulting circuit is like this:

                 0.5 V forward drop diodes
                 +----------|>|-----------+    
                 |                        |           
                 +----------|<|-----------+        
                 |                        |
                 |                        |
     <-----------+---/\/\/------+~~~~~+---+
                   2 ohms     anticipator |
  to furnace                   element    |
                         \                |
     <------------------o \---------------+ 
              thermostat mecury switch

Anyone else have TACO zone valve solutions to share?
                    --tom

    
    I have a two zone system in my house with zone valves. I replaced the
    old out dated Thrush valves with Taco valves. To do this I had to repl-
    ace both thermostats because the old system was a 3 wire system and the
    new valves and stats are the two wire system. Both old and new stats
    were Honeywell "round " ones. Anyways, I have not had the trouble that
    was described in this note. I set both anticipators to .9 and everything
    works fine. My supplier sold me the valves and stats as a "set" and
    said that they work well together. I guess he was right. BTW, my
    supplier is my brother in law. 
    This probably won't help you now, but I just wanted to show that
    Taco valves will work with some stats.
    Bob
         

    On Saturday morning (3/23) I went around to each thermostat and
    adjusted the anticipators to .9 amps.  Each of my thermostats are made
    by Honeywell, but they are not the same model.  However they all have
    adjustable anticpators.  Prior to the adjustment each was set at about
    .2 amps.
    
    It has been about five days now and everything is working fine.  The
    thermometer and thermostat are pretty well calibrated; that is, setting
    the heat on 70 will turn the heat on if the room temp is less than 70.
    Thanks for all the suggestions.
    
    RE: .4
    
    If it is a viable option I would consider getting new thermostats.  I'm
    not sure how much they cost; $20?  Maybe you could buy one and try it
    out to see if it will solve your problem.
    
    	- Tom

I am presently expanding the number of heating zones in my house 
from 4 to 6. Obviously, a lot of plumbing, hole drilling, floor 
cutting and a very unhappy wife. But-- to zone vales; I selected 
Honeywell motorized valves because they WORK. The problems that 
you describe might be caused by the Taco valve, a valve that I 
wouldn't give a dime for.

I suggest that you call for heat with your thermostat and then go 
to where the valve is located. Carefully feel the temperature of 
the pipe (take care not to burn yourself) before the valve and 
after the valve. If the valve is opened, you will know it by the 
pipe temperature. If the pipe doesn't indicate hot  water flow, 
try touching the valve with your hand to monitor temperature 
around the body of the valve. Again, be careful because the Taco 
valve gets very hot. If the valve is cold, check wiring. If the 
valve is hot, the problem could be with the valve itself. 

There is a lever (if I remember correctly) on top of the valve to 
manually force it open. Try actuating the lever with or without 
the thermostat calling for heat. With the lever actuated, the 
valve is forced open and water should flow through the heating 
circuit. This test is for obstructions in the pipe itself.

When I first built my house, I had 4 Taco valves in the heating 
circuits. Within the first year, 2 failed and I returned them 
under warranty for replacement. Over the next 5 years, I had 3 
additional valve failures and I called Taco in Providence, RI 
about the problem. Taco was willing to replace them but after I 
found out how they operate, I wanted no part of them and replaced 
all with Honeywell motorized valves.

The Taco valve operates by heating an element that surrounds a 
cylinder filled with bee's wax. When the wax is heated, it 
expands and exerts pressure against the valve piston causing it 
to open. The problem is that the bee's wax sometimes leaks out of 
the expansion cylinder because when heated, there is a great 
deal of pressure built up that is required to push the valve 
piston. Incidentally, the cost of a Taco valve is in the same range 
as the Honeywell.

Hope this helps,

Joe

RE: .7:   Honeywell motorized zone valves...

Yes, I agree the TACO valves are hokey with the thermal motor they use to open
the valves.  I didn't know about the Honeywell valves (where was your reply
last year?).  I would never have bought the TACO valves if I knew how they
worked before I bought them.  Oh well... what's a few resistors among friends?

BTW, my thermostats are both setback thermostats, one by Emerson and one by
Sears.  Both are clearly made by the same company, though.  The adjustable
anticipator markings only go up to 0.8 amps, even though the specs (on the
outside of the package) say they will work with up to 1.0 amps.
                               --tom

    As I said in .6, I've had Taco valves in since 1986 and had absolutely
    no problems with them. I don't know if Taco makes more than one kind
    or not, but my brother in law gave me the new and improved version.
    In fact, they still had the prototype covers on them. I don't know if
    mine has the "beeswax mechanism" or not, I'll have to ask him. He was 
    going to give me the regular Taco valves, they say Taco right on them, 
    but then he took them back and gave me the "improved" ones. These are
    Taco but they don't say anything on the cover. 
    All I know is they work great.
    My $.02
    Bob
      

I also have Taco zone valves on my hydronic system, and they seem to work
fine with my Sears (aka White-Rodgers) electronic setback thermostat.  I
have noticed that the LED on the thermostat which indicates that it is
calling for heat tends to cycle on and off while still calling for heat -
this may be caused by the zone valves.

			Steve

    You also have to make sure that each thermostat is mainly affected
    by the zone it is trying to control. We have a situation where the
    radiator  closest  to our upstairs thermostat is controlled by the
    downstairs  thermostat. (Perhaps that belongs in the "Why Did They
    Ever Do That" note.)

    This means  that if the downstairs heat comes on, and we close the
    bedroom  doors  (the  upstairs  is  bedrooms  and a bathroom), the
    upstairs thermostat thinks we're toasty warm, when the temperature
    in the bedrooms can be around 40 F.  

--David

    Last winter my girlfriends electronic setback thermostat failed
    (predictably) during a sub-zero cold spell while she was on vacation. 
    The result was frozen pipes, toilets, aquariums, etc. for a total of
    over $20,000 worth of damage (luckily covered by insurance).
    
    I've been thinking of ways to keep this from happening again (without
    giving up the convenience of an electronic thermostat), and came up
    with the idea of connecting two thermostats in parallel.  One would be
    your normal electronic setback set to whatever cycle you desire, and
    the other would be a simple mechanical thermostat set to a lower
    temperature (say 50 degrees).  As long as the electronic thermostat was
    working correctly the temperature would never get as low as the
    mechanical thermostat was set for, and the mechanical wouild never turn
    on.  If the electronic thermostat failed the temperature would drop
    down to the point set on the mechanical thermostat, which would then
    turn the heat on, keeping the house from freezing.
    
    Has anybody tried such a system?  Can you think of any reasons why it
    wouldn't work?
    
    

    Should be fine....as long as the second one is just the "mechanical"
    type,and not another electronic one.
    
    Marc H.

Wouldn't the anticpator of the 2nd thermostat interfere with the first one?

    I would think the anticipator of the second one wouldn't come into play
    until the second thermostat kicked on.  And then it would just turn
    it off a little before the room temperature reached the setpoint
    (like it's supposed to).
    
    rich
    

The electronic thermostats I'm aware of have two wires going to the furnace.
Both power and signal go over those two wires. There is another gadget near
the furnace that delivers power to the electronic thermostat and tells the
furnace whether or not to kick in (depending on the signal it gets from the
thermostat).

If you connect a mechanical thermostat directly in parallel to the electronic
one, it will short the power to the electronic thermostat! This will probably
trip a safety feature in the power module, but the furnace will *not* kick
in! So you are just achieving the OPPOSITE of what you are intending!!!

So if you have another cold spell, and the mechanical thermostat starts
working, it will just get colder and colder and colder ..... and all your
pipes, toilet and aquariums will freeze again! But this time you may have
to foot the bill yourself, because is was *you* who made the wiring error
that caused the problem!!

Have you been able to find the problem in the electronic thermostat? Was it
really the thermostat that was at fault, and not the wiring between the
thermostat and the furnace (e.g. loose contact)?

I'm not sure what you intend to do makes the total system more reliable.
There are numerous things that can go wrong in a heating system; not just
the thermostat.

I wouldn't do it. If your girlfriend doesn't have piece of mind with just 
the electronic thermostat, then get rid of it, and put a good old 
mechanical thermostat in its place!

Or get an electrical heater with its own thermostat, and set it to a few
degrees above freezing. If for whatever reason the main heating system
fails, there is still a backup.

/Date

>The electronic thermostats I'm aware of have two wires going to the furnace.
>Both power and signal go over those two wires. There is another gadget near
>the furnace that delivers power to the electronic thermostat and tells the
>furnace whether or not to kick in (depending on the signal it gets from the
>thermostat).
>
>If you connect a mechanical thermostat directly in parallel to the electronic
>one, it will short the power to the electronic thermostat! This will probably
>trip a safety feature in the power module, but the furnace will *not* kick
>in! So you are just achieving the OPPOSITE of what you are intending!!!
>
>So if you have another cold spell, and the mechanical thermostat starts
>working, it will just get colder and colder and colder ..... and all your
>pipes, toilet and aquariums will freeze again! But this time you may have
>to foot the bill yourself, because is was *you* who made the wiring error
>that caused the problem!!

     I have real difficulty with this reply.  Unless I'm completely out to 
lunch, the thermostat is a normally-open switch.  The thermostat (_whatever
kind_) works by shorting the two wires together, which causes a current to
flow, which activates a relay in the controller, which causes the burner 
to turn on.

     Putting two thermostats in parallel will have exactly the effect the 
basenoter wants to achieve.

    Re .4:
    
    That is probably an over-generalization.  From my experience,
    FHA/FHW heating systems usually expect the thermostat to act
    as a simple switch; ON when "calling" for heat, OFF when not.
    The thermostat switch is wired in SERIES with a transformer
    (usually 24 volt) and the gas valve solenoid (or control relay).
    
    Electronic thermostats often use the 24 volts present across
    the OPEN thermostat contacts (which are probably some sort of
    solid-state switch - transistor, etc.) to trickle charge the
    internal thermostat battery.  The current draw to trickle
    charge a battery is not sufficient to energize the gas valve
    solenoid (or control relay).
    
    With such a system adding an auxilliary "backup" thermostat
    would work just as the base noter desired.  However, there
    ARE other systems ("millivolt" comes to mind) which match
    .4's description; whether or not one can use a "backup"
    thermostat on those really depends on the specific system.

    If I were putting two thermostats in parallel, I'd
    use a mechanical one as the backup, and I'd set it for
    a distinctly lower temperature than the primary one.
    
    If the primary one fails the secondary one won't come
    on until the temperature drops into the range it's
    set for.  If the primary one doesn't fail, since
    the secondary one is set for a different range,
    they won't interfere with each other.
    
    If the primary one comes back while the secondary one
    is on the secondary one will simply go off as soon
    as the temperature gets to the secondary's setting,
    but the primary one will still be on, thereby recovering
    to the higher temperature.

    oh forget all that pseudo-technowiene parrallel redundant nonsense ;^)
    
    Honeywell still sells a MECHANICAL setback thermostat.  Even if the
    timer fails (it's power comes from the furnace and has a nicad backup), 
    the setting on the thermostat at the time of failure will remain in 
    effect.  The coldest it will be is the "low" setting, and the warmest
    will be the "high" setting.  Two ranges, multiple switchbacks between
    them, and no worry; without the clock it is just a mercury actuated
    thermostat.  
    
    It does have drawbacks, it has a slight "tick" that you can hear; the
    clock is electro-mechanical, not digital.  Also, there is a loud "click"
    when it changes heat zones (literaly a pushpin on the edge of the
    clockface that turns a dial).  Also, you void the warranty if you
    install it yourself; they have a lot of customer installed problems.
    
    Well, it is a compromise, but beats two thermostats.
    
    /greg
    

    RE: 4336.4
    
    Huh???
    
    Care to explain some more? I didn't follow your line of thinking at 
    all.
    
    Marc H.

I guess I caused some confusion. I will describe the electronic thermostat
I had in my previous home (my current home has a mechanical one). If the
basenoter's girlfriend has one similar to the one I had, his idea will not
work; moreover it will just do the opposite!

Re .6

If you're talking about a *mechanical* thermostat, you're right. A mechanical
thermostat is just a mercury switch mounted on a spring. If the thermostat
setting is higher than the ambient temperature, the switch is open, otherwise
it is closed. If closed, the switch will short the wires, so a current can 
flow through the wires, the current activates a relay, etc.

An electronic thermostat work a bit differently. An electronic thermostat needs
to be powered, unlike a mechanical one. That power has to come from somewhere. 
You don't want the power from a battery, because if the battery dies, the 
thermostat stops working!
However, there are still two wires from the place where the thermostat is 
mounted (e.g. the family room) to the furnace. Most modern electronic
thermostats use these two wires to carry both the power and the "signal" 
which tells the burner to switch on (in other words, power and signal are
multiplexed onto those two wires).

In a mechanical thermostat, the "signal" to the burner is to short out the 
two wires. However, if you have an electronic thermostat, you can't short
the wires because the electronic thermostat would be deprived of it's power,
and stop working! This problem is solved by another electronix box ("adapter")
located near the furnace. The adapter plugs into the mains, and feeds power 
to the electronic thermostat. The adapter also has two wires going to the 
relay of the burner. Now *these* wires get shorted by the adapter, when the
electronic thermostat tells it to do so.

A diagram may help:


  ----------------               --------------         ---------------
  |  electronic  |       A       |  adapter   |    B    |   relay     |
  |  thermostat  |---------------|   near     |---------|             |
  |              |---------------|  furnace   |---------|             |
  |              |               |            |         |             |
  ----------------      ^        --------------    ^    ---------------
                        |             |  |         |
                    two wires        mains       two wires that get shorted
                    carrying
                    power *and*
                    signal                        

Now if you connect a mechanical thermostat parallel to the electronic one
near position "A" (so across the wires between the electronic thermostat
and the adapter, you're in trouble. As soon as the mechanical thermostat
kicks in, the electronic one is starved of its power. The adapter has its
output shorted, and must somehow deal with this. It may also fry. It all
depends. But the adapter will *not* get a signal from the electronic
thermostat to short the wires to the relay! So the burner will *not* turn on!
Thus, by connecting the mechanical thermostat in parallel to the electronic
one, you have achieved just the *opposite* of what you intended! If the
mechanical thermostat kicks in, the house *will* freeze! So now it's not
a safety feature, but a death trap!

If you connect a mechanical thermostat at position "B", you're OK. Now the
burner will switch on, if either the mechanical or the electronic thermostat
tells it to. However, this is near the furnace, so a mechanical thermostat
won't do you much good here. It is unlikely it will get very cold near the
furnace, especially if the furnace is in the basement, and if the furnace 
has a pilot light. 

If you still want a mechanical thermostat near an electronic one, you *can*
do it, but you need to run two extra wires from the mechanical thermostat to
position "B".

There are also electronic thermostats that get their power directly from the
mains. These thermostats have an (ugly) wire to a power outlet. *These* 
thermostats work like mechanical ones, and just short the two wires to the
burner. For *these* electronic thermostat it is OK to have a mechanical
one in parallel. As far as I know, these types of electronic thermostats
are not sold anymore these days. Most people don't want the wire from the
electronic thermostat to a power outlet.

So, as with many things, it all depends. The basenoter's idea may or may not
work, depending on what his girlfriend has. But the catch is, *if* it goes
wrong, it goes *badly* wrong! I'm not sure what the effect on their 
relationship is if his girlfriend gets another $20K worth of damage. 

So, if you're not *absolutely* sure what you're doing: DON'T DO IT!!!

Hope this clarifies things.

/Date

    Re: 4336.11
    
    Well,I have to admit that I did not know about those *electronic* type
    of thermostats that you described. I was thinking about the ones that
    trickle charge batteries from the current...as a previous reply stated.
    
    If the thermostat is the type you have descibed....then I admit it
    will not work.
    
    How common are these type of thermostats?????
    
    Marc H.

Of course, there's always the First Alert style of electronic thermostat:
where the thermostat controls a stepping motor, which in turn moves an 
ordinary mechanical thermostat.  Noisy, but fail safe and much easier to
install.

Unfortunately, I don't think they make them anymore, as we looked all over last
year without success for a round model to replace our electronic
thermostat that failed.  The one First Alert that we do have works admirably.

   Gary

I can't claim to be an expert on all types of electronic thermostats around,
but personally I wouldn't care for a battery type. All batteries go sooner or
later, leaving you with just the problem .0 described.

I was happy with my electronic thermostat, although this type has one distinct
disadvantage: it had to be reprogrammed after a power failure. When power
came back on, it ran a standard program, so you wouldn't come back to a frozen
home in winter. I owned it for about 6 years, and during this time it never
let me down (but I realize you can't do proper reliability statistics with 
a sample size of 1).

As I said before, if it come to the reliability of a complete heating system, 
I don't think .0 has the right idea. Some kind of warning system (like .5
describes) looks much better to me. If you really want to do it fancy, you
could install some of that home automation stuff. But I think nothing tops
having somebody check in your home regularly if you're away for a long time.

/Date 

I have a setback thermostat that is powered from the 24v line from the
furnace.  It gets power from the line both when not calling for heat and
when it is calling for heat.  It gets power while calling for heat by having
a transformer in series with the supply, this transformer has low enough
resistance so it does not interfere with the furnace solenoid.  It does not
need any battery, however it has provisions for one so it does not lose the
time/temp setting during a power outage.

If this one is "shorted" by a second thermostat, it will act like it has
a power failure, this thermostat either disengages the line if the battery
is present, or loses its mind if not (or dead).

-Mike

    Re the electronic thermostats described by .11
    
    I have not seen any thermostats like that in years.
    
    The modern electronic thermostat designed for standard systems
    runs off JUST the 24V switched supply.
    
    In fact the power requirements by the thermostat are nearly minimal.
    Under 1.5 volts will keep the clock and electronics running and the
    current draw is just a few milliamps.  When the thermostat is not
    calling for heat, there is more than enough power available from the
    24V switch circuit without turning on the burner.  When calling for
    heat, there are 3 methods ... the first uses an electronic switch
    (typically an SCR or Thyristor) across which there will be a voltage
    drop of around 1.5 Volts, thus leaving enough voltage to power the
    electronics.  The second uses a relay to perform the switching, but
    in this case, there is a series resistor which again will provide
    abouut 1.5 volts across the line to power the control.  The third
    type provides power to the electronics while on by a battery supply,
    either plain batteries, or rechargeables depending on type and the
    switch can be either SCR or relay.
    
    Most of these also have regular alkaline batteries to keep the
    clock running in the event of a power failure.
    
    The mechanical backup thermostat can be used for all 2 wire heating
    circuits.  Some thermostats use 3 or 4 wires to provide heating
    and this technique cannot be used directly.  You would be best to
    talk to a heating specialist in this case because you could have
    all kinds of problems depending on what the extra wires are for.
    
    I would be inclined to use a thermostat without anticipator (i.e.
    one designed for electric heat) ... almost any kind would be fine
    and the cheapest would be great.  There is no need to use an
    anticipator in this case because you are not aiming for comfort,
    just protection.
    
    I have fried 2 electronic thermostats because the ignitor on my
    oil burner induces big pulses on the thermostat wires, and fries
    the control SCRs, so I replaced them with a relay controlled
    thermostat by Honeywell.  It has now worked excellently for one
    heating season.
    
    Stuart
    

    I'm the original basenote author.  Based on all the replies in here it
    sounds like my idea should work just fine - the system is 24v and has
    just 2 wires.  Since we still have the old mechanical thermostat this
    will be a no cost solution.
    
    Just one last question:  Is there any special kind of wire I need to
    use to hook up the second thermostat, or will whatever I happen to have
    laying around (speaker wire, etc.) work?
    
    

    Nothing at all special --- the pro's use wire like bell wire, but
    anything you've got will work.   If the area where the furnace is
    located is heated, or even partially heated, like the basement, you can
    put it down there relatively close to the furnace, so you won't have
    to mount two thermostats side by each.
    
    Stuart

    Thanks to all who replied here.  I hooked up the second thermostat (in
    parallel) over the weekend, and the system appears to be working fine. 
    By playing with the temperature settings on the two thermostats I was
    able to get each of them to independently turn on the furnace.
    
    

    
    
    hi, I'd like to replace an old mechanical thermostat with a
    programmable one. Trouble is the old thermostat is on a beam approx 6
    1/8" wide. All the programmable thermostats I've seen are wide, approx
    10" across. 
    
    Has anybody seen a "vertical" thermostat, ie that goes up rather than
    across?
    
    thanx ! Simon

    The house I owned in Texas had a real small programmable thermostat. 
    It was rectangular and about the size of the round Honeywell
    thermostats.  I haven't seen anything like it at Spag's, though.
    
    I wouldn't worry about mounting it to the stud.  Thermostats aren't
    that heavy.  Just use plaster plugs and screws to mount it on the wall.

    .12:
    
    Spag's does carry a Honeywell that's squarish instead of rectangular,
    and might be 6-ish inches wide.  It was also about twice the price of
    the Robertshaws ($85 or 90, versus $45);  whether the additional
    features are worth the additional price is up to the buyer.
    
    Dick

    .13
    
    The one I had (can't remember the manufacturer) was about 3"x2".

    
    
    anybody have an 800 number for Honeywell? and whats Spags, some NE
    store? If its a catalogue place, anybody have the number?
    
    thanx for the help so far, much appreciated. I'm trying to replace the
    existing thermostat in-situ as I don't want to crawl under the house
    and re-route any wire, plus I don't fancy making more holes in the
    wall!
    
    simon

    What is Spag's?!?  Well...  (see note 255 for an approximation!)

    
    
    normally I wouldn't, but the whole house is pristine(IMHO) 1935 knotted
    pine, and the thermostat is in a perfect position, and every time I
    touch something I tend to break it, so go for the minimal disruption
    route 8-)
    
    simon

>    anybody have an 800 number for Honeywell?

See note 23.3.

Re: .20

I've seen Honeywell thermostats at Home Club in Colorado Springs.  It's at
the corner of Academy and Hancock Expressway.

    re.20
    Been to Home Club yet? I've been able to find almost everything
    I could dream of there and believe me during the current greenhouse
    project I have been looking for some pretty odd items. Last I checked
    the had the full honeywell line as well as others. Don't bother calling
    them they won't discuss stock over the phone but check isle 1 or 2
    (I spend way too much time there)I think you might find what you need.
    
    -j

I have a programmable unit that fits over the standard round honeywell 
thermostat.  It links to the dial with a mechanical device that is driven by
a small motor and a worm gear.  As I recall, the unit was lots less than $80,
probably around $25-30.  There is NO electrical connection to the existing 
system at all.  The time before that, I had a set back thermostat that was 
capable of switching between 2 settings at specific times of the day.  The
one I have now has 4 changes per day Mon-Fri, and 4 changes per day Sat-Sun.
You can program it to any random temperature, too.

This is about 1" wider than the round thermostat, and about 8" tall overall, 
and not much deeper than the existing thermostat.

By the way, it is VERY LIKELY that you will have to make 2 new mounting holes
in your wall no matter what brand you buy.

    Regarding alternatives for drilling holes for mounting, you should be
    able to use something like Velcro tape to mount a thermostat on a wall
    with no problem.
    
    Jim

Why not mount a piece of wood to the wall using the existing holes, and 
attach the thermostat to the piece of wood?

Re:  Wood... I guess that all depends on where it is...I whack my shoulder on 
the thermostat often enough that I would not want it to stick out farther.  
Besides, if he feels uncomfortable about the being able to drill 2 holes, then
cutting a mounting board is probably way beyond his abilities.

>>Besides, if he feels uncomfortable about the being able to drill 2 holes, then
>>cutting a mounting board is probably way beyond his abilities.

    Isn't this a little unfair?  My understanding is that the person
    doesn't *want* to drill more holes in the wall, not that he doesn't
    feel competent to do it.

    
    talk about trial by NOTES! I got the thermostat last night from the
    local plumbing supply. Homeclub had a CT3100A on display but none in,
    and as usual I wanted to do this *NOW* 8-) So I got a WHITE RANGER for
    $53 and it seems to work like a treat.
    
    .-1 was right. I've just rebuilt the inside of a barn and don't mind
    drilling holes left right and center. I didn't want to *move* the
    thermostat and leave an old hole behind, right at eye level.
    
    thanks again for all your help, warm toes are me,
    
    simon

Sorry.  No offense meant... I guess I just misunderstood you in .18 when you 
said:
    ...and every time I touch something I tend to break it, so go for the 
    minimal disruption route

(which was, I thought, in response to the note saying to use plaster plugs and
screws).

I still gotta admit, I'm confused...  You tend to break things you touch, yet
you rebuilt the inside of a barn???  Methinks you underestimate your abilities!

    I have a old round electric thermostat which was in the house when I
    bought it. It runs an oil fired steam system. My problem is that the
    furnace does not seem to run very long(20 seconds to a few minutes) and
    hence the steam does not seem to get to the remote radiators during
    regular heating. If I turn up the temp a few degrees, the furnace runs
    long enough(10 minutes +) to build up heat in the whole house, every
    radiator, and works well. 
    
    I see that there is an adjustment under the cover of the thermostat and
    it is labled with numbers from 1.0 to 5 or so and has an arrow marked 
    longer, pointing the the higher numbers. I don't remember if there is a 
    lable stating this but I seem to remember something about
    "anticipator's"? Does this adjustment control the length of a typical
    burn cycle on the furnace?  
    
    I have checked the pressure range switch on top of the furnace and I
    can cause the furnace to shut down by lowering the upper limit, so I
    don't believe this is what is causing the short burn cycle during
    regular heating. 
    
    How can I get the furnace to run longer on a typical run cycle when 
    maintaining household temperature?
    
    Bryan

    
     The settings that you are talking about are for adjusting the
    sensitivtiy to temperature changes that the thermostat sees and 
    in a sense will have a big time affect on burn times for you
    furnace. I set mine for about 3 +/- deg sensitivity and have no 
    real problems except for a chilly feeling sometimes as the temperature
    drops real fast on a cold day to the - 3 deg region.
     

    You may want to check the vents on the radiators to be sure they
    are working properly.  I have seen versions of these vents that
    have adjustable openings.  You close down the vents closest to
    the boiler and open up the vents farthest away; in theory, at least,
    this allows steam freer flow to the more distant radiators and
    somewhat balances the heat in the house.  What with the general
    demise of steam heat, I don't know if such things are still available.
    
    I'm not sure if that is your problem though, or if the problem is
    just one of thermostat anticipation. It's something else you can
    think about, at least.

    RE: .32
    
    Those steam valves are still available....at least locally at SPAGS.
    When I had my steam system,I spent a lot of time trying to balance
    the system.
    
    Brian....you need to adjust the "anticipator" in the thermostat,to make
    the system run longer...also,if its steam it will take a lot of time
    to get it working correctly.
    
    Marc H.

    What that adjustment inside the thermostat, which is indeed called
    the anticipator, does is to turn the furnace or boiler off before the
    room temperature reaches the temperature called for by the thermostat,
    anticipating that the heat remaining in the system (be it radiators or
    hot air) will bring the house up to the called for temperature within
    a short time period.  If the anticipation is too small, then the
    house will typically overheat, that is it will usually overshoot
    the thermostat setting.  If the anticipation is too high, then the
    house will underheat and it will never reach the thermostat setting.
    
    The duration of a burn will be affected by the anticipation to some
    extent although it is not a straightforward relationship.  Too little
    anticipation will usually result in a longer burn and too much will
    result in short burns and very rapid burner cycling.
    
    The temperature swing is primarily a function of the sensitivity of
    the thermostat and its hysteresis.  You can order thermostats with
    different parameters.  Some electronic thermostats allow modification
    of the parameters.
    
    Probably the best way to adjust the anticipator is to set it near
    mid-range and follow what happens to the temperature, if it tends
    to under- or over-shoot after a few minutes after the boiler
    stops burning, then move it up or down until you get no significant 
    under or over shoot.  Then you know that you have adjusted it optimally.
    Don't base it on the length of the boiler burn.  This time of year
    the furnace or boiler will run ineficiently with short burns anyway.
    
    The limit switches, or aquastat and pump swithces if they exist, on a 
    boiler, also play a large role in the duration of a burn.  Regretably
    there isn't a simple relationship between them all.
    
    
    Stuart
    
    

	These steam valves are also available at Somerville Lumber and at 
 True Value Hardware stores.

I'm having trouble calibrating the  several round Honeywell thermostats (circa
1975?) that control my 4-zone oil fhw furnace. I've made sure all are level,
following the advice in this note. Yet the reading on the built-in thermometer
does not correspond to the thermostat. That is, the heat in one  zone will come
on when the thermostat is set at 60 degrees, although the thermometer reads 68.
A different zone has only a 4 degree discrepancy. A third zone is nearly 10
degrees off, etc.

Is this a problem with the "anticipator" settings? Or is there some other way of
adjusting the thermostat so that it agrees with the thermometer better? (What
does the "Honeywell Thermostat Wrench" mentioned a few notes back do?)

Thanks,
Brian

    No, the anticipator only determines when to turn OFF the furnace.
    
    What you need to do is get a thermometer you can trust and use it
    to confirm the thermometer readings of the stats ...  Then adjust 
    the rotation of the thermostat spring coil or dial until correct.
    Most can be adjusted ...
    
    Often though, the built in thermometers are wrong too, just to
    confuse the issue.
    
    Stuart

    
    Tandy sells an electronic thermometer for about $14 which
    is accurate to about a degree either way.  It has a small
    remote sensor that can be clipped to the Honeywell so you can
    get an accurate reading at the coil.
    
    Something else to check - the hole where the wire to the thermostat
    comes through the wall.  If it's not blocked completely with mud,
    then colder or warmer air can infiltrate into the thermostat.
    
    Regards,
    
    Colin
    

The honeywell thermostat wrench adjusts the thermometer and the pointer to
better coincide with each other.

RE> -1:

>The honeywell thermostat wrench adjusts the thermometer and the pointer to
>better coincide with each other.

That sounds like exactly what I need! Who sells these things today?

Brian

    No listing in 1111 for thermostats, nor a good topic listed in
    the "HEATING" notes. Mr. Mod, if this isn't a good note let me
    know and I'll move it...
    
    Can someone tell me what kind of algorhythms the "smart" thermostats
    use? Extra inputs? Over-rides?
    
    They sound cool. (Pun intended)
    
    Edd

    I never got into the "smart" thermostats myself.  I turn the knob
    before I walk the dog and when I get up.
    
    My father, however ...  His has X number of setbacks.  He set his up 
    for:   68 @6am,  66 @8am, 68 7pm and 58 10:30pm.
    
    When his "smart box" did a temperature setback, it recorded how long
    it took until the "new" setting was reached.  Cold night == shorter
    time drop.  So to make the temp 68 AT >6am< NOT 6:01am, it would turn 
    on XX minutes earlier so that AT 6am, the temp was at the setting.  It 
    "knew" on average how long it took the system to raise the temp 1 degree 
    (it had "learned" that too).  I don't know if it "learned" the raise time 
    every time or averaged or did it once and stored.  The unit did have a
    manual over-ride.
    
    The box he had when I was still at home would "go crazy" every now and
    again.  I'd wake up in a sweat (my room was the warmest in the house)
    and I'd have to "over-ride" the thing.  It would be heading for the
    mid-70's (bye-bye savings!).  I'm not sure how many settings it had.
    
    Now that my wife stays at home and we have a baby, we don't turn the heat 
    down to 58 at night (wife lets me put it down to 62) and the heating bill 
    is about $180+ more per year (heat+hot water now ~700).  When we both 
    worked, I'd turn it up to 68 from 6:30-8:00, set for 58 from 8am-5:30 (ave) 
    - if we went shopping from work or met at her folks, etc .. it stayed down 
    - smart thermostats THINK you'll home any minute and turn on - I'd turn it 
    down again at 10-10:30.  If we went shopping on a Saturday and would be 
    gone over 4 hrs, I'd turn it back to 64.
    
    POINTS: it doesn't know that you aren't coming home this PM
    	    it THINKS you want the temp @ 68 EXACTLY when you set the time. 
            it CAN screw up - really needed a "safty valve" over-temp sensor
            It costs money to buy AND replace (they do break)
    	    It is fairly ridgid - ie, it's a machine/clock/timer
    
    I can't remember the brand name.  He's since replaced that one with an
    "even smarter one".  Dear old dad is a engineer, ya know!  (like son).

    I was hoping for something a little smarter...
    
    Monitor the outside temp and slope. Based on what it's learned, let
    it calculate whether it's more efficient to let the temp drop to
    "unoccupied" or maintain current. I'd obviously have to let it know
    (a) I was gone, and (b) how long I anticipated being gone. (Oooo,
    wouldn't dial-in be nice!!!)
    
    Maybe I need a PC....
    
    Edd 

I've been thinking about getting an 'automatic' thermostat.  We always
seem to forget to turn it down when we go to bed...

These 'smart' thermostats sound pretty serious.  If you say you want the temp
at 68 @6am, then it knows to start a little earlier to get the temp at
exactly 68 at exactly 6am.  Wow!

This is much different than the ones I remember my parents using.  Those were 
just timer based.  ie, at 6am it would turn on and set the temp to 68 (not
knowing how long it would take to get to that setting).  This is pretty much 
what you're doing when you do it by hand anyway...  Except with a simple 
timer thermostat, you may know that it takes say 5 minutes to warm up, so 
you set it to turn on at 5:55am.

I guess what I'm saying is that a timer thermostat can acheive pretty much 
the same thing as a 'smart' one.  And I would assume somewhat cheaper?

---

>    My father, however ...  His has X number of setbacks.  He set his up 
>    for:   68 @6am,  66 @8am, 68 7pm and 58 10:30pm.

On another vein....  I thought I read somewhere in here that you don't really
want to vary the temp too much, that it's better to maintain a fairly regular 
temp.   The arguement being that it takes more fuel to boost the temp from
58->68, than to maintain, say, 64-68?

Are there any formulas to help figure this out?  Ie, let's say we like the 
temp at 68 when we're home.  When we're at work, who cares (as long as the
pipes don't freeze.)  So what should we set it at while away for many hours?

Dan

    I like my timer-based one.  It wasn't expensive, and the NiCad keeps
    the timer going even if the power is off (well, until the NiCad dies,
    at which time you have to replace it).  It has little pegs that you
    attach to the inside of its clock face to switch the setting.  So, it
    goes on about fifteen minutes before I get up in the morning, runs
    until about half an hour before we leave for work, comes on about 5:30
    in the evening and runs until 10:30.  If it is the weekend, or someone
    is otherwise home or not keeping normal hours, it is easy to walk over
    to the thing and punch the override button to switch it from one mode
    to the other.  If I'm not going to be home, I set the "warm"
    temperature to be the same as the "cool" temperature.
    
    This scheme only works if you don't have central air conditioning (you
    can get a more complex version if you do, or you can change the setting
    when you go into cooling season), and it won't work the same if you
    don't have forced hot air heating (which heats the house quickly).
    
    The only real nuisance about it is that it is currently set to allow a
    fairly big temperature change before it activates the furnace, or turns
    the furnace off, much bigger temperature swing than the regular
    thermostat had, and I do not know for sure how to set it.  It allows a
    difference of maybe 5 oF, which is quite a bit.
    
    /Charlotte

The first timer model I tried had a battery that ran a motor that wound a clock
spring every 8 minutes.  What a racket the thing made!  "TICK TICK... TICK ZZZZZ
ZZZZZIP TICK TICK...."  Also, all you could do is tell it to reduce the temp by
up to 10 degrees from a standard setting.  And there were up to 4 times a day to
switch between settings.

I returned that (becuase of the noise!) and got a model that offered 2 temp 
settings, and used pegs to switch between them.  It came with 6 or 8 pegs.  
That was nice becuase we were able to plug in a whole bunch of cool setting pegs
and just one warm up for the morning.  It never bothered us to be cool at night,
coming in from outside, just in the morning when we had to jump out of bed. 
There was a cycle button to switch settings on command that we used when we got
home, or when we stayed up past our normal bedtime, and the cool down pegs would
make sure the heat did not stay on for long periods of time.

When I moved, I bought an even newer variety.  This one fits OVER the standard
round thermostat.  It has a computer with memory, and remembers a bunch of week-
day settings, and a bunch of weekend settings.  You place a clamp over the dial
and and a motor drive will turn the dial for you.  To program it,  you set the
time and day indicator, and hit a manual override button until the dial is set
where you want.  Works great, but we rarely use it now that we burn wood most
of the time.

I understand that there is an X10 thermostat controller.  X10 is a communication
protocol that runs on your household wiring.  Radio Shack and a few others sell
a bunch of units to control lamps and outlets.  It's nifty cuz you can run power
to a switch, and run separate power to the load it controls, and not have to 
wire the switch to the load directly.  It also allows for multiple dimmers, and
has timer control boxes for your bedside, etc.  There are also telephone 
interfaces, and pc interfaces for X10 that would give you the ability to control
lights and temperature from your PC, or by calling home, or from a remote unit
in your car (like a garage opener).   I suppose that with enough sensors, and 
a bit of software, you could program such a system to be pretty slick.  Maybe
even interface a few motion detectors so the heat would lower itself after so
many minutes of no motion (imagine how please the burgular would be to find
the heat turned on just for him/her!).

							-jp

I have the Robershaw TX2 unit. It has 4 time/temperature zones that
have two sets of times/temps, one for each of the 5 weekdays and one for
the weekend days.

Robershaw has dictated that time/temp zone 1 and three shall be the same
temperature.  You get to vary the times  when the programs take effect.

The same is true for the weekend days, and I override this by programming
the same temperatures for three of the 4 time/temperature periods.

There's an override setting which is overridden itself should the unit
be in override mode when a time/temperature period comes due.

There's a temperature 'swing' that has 6 ranges to accomplish what the
'anticipator' does on ordinary thermostats. It works fairly well, from what
I can see.

The unit handles heating as well as cooling and has a separate set of time/temp
periods to cover cooling. Both heating and cooling have 'vacation' settings
to save energy.

The unit is powered by 1.5V AA alkaline cells and has a feature that warns
of low battery by illuminating a red LED.  You can replace the cells, one
at a time, without losing time or setback program(s).

At Somerville, it was ticketed at $37, I bought it on sale for $29.

So far, I like it.


Chris

    I have an earlier Robertshaw electronic setback thermostat and can
    vouch for their functionality and reliablity.
    
    Jim

re .4:

>    The only real nuisance about it is that it is currently set to allow a
>    fairly big temperature change before it activates the furnace, or turns
>    the furnace off, much bigger temperature swing than the regular
>    thermostat had, and I do not know for sure how to set it.

It sound like you need to adjust the anticipator -- a movable arm that
rests against a coil.

> On another vein....  I thought I read somewhere in here that you don't really
> want to vary the temp too much, that it's better to maintain a fairly regular 
> temp.   The arguement being that it takes more fuel to boost the temp from
> 58->68, than to maintain, say, 64-68?

> Are there any formulas to help figure this out?  Ie, let's say we like the 
> temp at 68 when we're home.  When we're at work, who cares (as long as the
> pipes don't freeze.)  So what should we set it at while away for many hours?


Does anyone out there have any insight regarding this question?  This is a
concern of The-new-home-owner-with-his-new-programmable-thermostat.  Is it 
really saving me any money or am I losing it all through recovery to the 
comfortable living temperature?

My schedule weekdays is:  58 deg F  9:30 P.M. to 6:30 A.M.
		 	  66 deg F  6:30 A.M. to 7:45 A.M.
		  	  58 deg F  7:45 A.M. to 5:30 P.M.
		 	  66 deg F  5:30 P.M. to 9:30 P.M.

on weekends: 58 deg F 10:00 P.M. to 7:30 A.M.
	     66 deg F 7:30 A.M. to 10:00 P.M.

Thanks,
Dan

    re: .10
    
    Yes.
    

    RE .10
    
    Then going lower than 58 would be better?  or the closer I can get
    to the exterior temperature the more I'll save?
    
    /Dan

    
    
    Also RE .10... thinking about this some more...
    
    Doesn't the recovery cost and the canceling affect with not running
    the furnace depend on how well the house is insulated?  In other words,
    some houses may take 1 hour to loose 8 deg F and 30 minutes to regain
    that loss.  Other houses may take 2 hours to loose 8 deg F and 20
    minutes to regain that loss.
    
    Looking forward to some more input...
    
    Thanks,
    Dan

re .12:

Well, yes, setting the temp. lower will cost less.  Consider if you set the
thermostat to whatever the outside temperature is.  There is no heat loss once
the house cools down, and the heat would never come on, so you save 100% of the
heating cost during this time.

But you have to consider it may take too long for the heat the house back up
if you set it too cold (especially since the furniture, walls etc. will cool
off and absorb the heat when you try to heat the house back up), it may heat
back up unevenly if your heating system is unbalanced, there may be other
problems if you get carried away (killing house plants, perhaps condensation if
it gets too cold, though high humidity is rarely a problem in the winter, burst
pipes if you *really* get carried away and let it get colder than freezing)

re .13:

Better insulation always helps save money.  A better insulated house will
extend the time it takes for the house to cool from the high temp to the low
temp (and the heating system doesn't run at all during this time!), while it is
maintaining the low or high temp it doesn't work as hard, and it doesn't really
affect the warmup time much (it shortens it somewhat since it is losing less
heat during this time).  Now if you *really* have a well-insulated house the
setback may not be able to save all that much *more*, as the house may not
even cool off to the cold temp before it's time to warm back up again.

-Mike

    RE: .13
    
    Dan,
     Simple or even complex "formulas" really can't help you, past what has
    been said. The outside temp/humidity/wind will always add more
    variables than you can shake a stick at!
     If you want to, I would suggest measuring the furnace "on" time daily
    and measure the weather conditions. Vary the temp. you "set-back"
    and see if you are saving $$$$ or not.
     Might make an interesting science fair project too!
    
    
    Marc H.

    The duration of the cooling and heating period are irrelevent to
    the savings in the first order.
    
    If your house cools from 72 F to 62 F in, say five hours, it may
    lose say 100,000 BTU (Units of Heat).  (i.e. average of 20,000
    BTU/hr)  A typical, but large furnace may be rated at 100,000 BTU/hr, 
    and so will burn for 1 hour to heat the house up again from 62 F to 72 F.
    In practice, the house may lose 25,000 BTU/hr at 72 F and 15,000 BTU/hr
    at 62 F.  Remember heat loss is proportional to the temperature
    difference.
    
    Thus the savings by the setback are of the order of 10,000 BTU per
    hour of setback.  Thus you ALWAYS will save with a setback, but
    the bottom line is your comfort and whether the degree of setback can
    restored in the desired time.
    
    As a side note, the furnace will always burn more efficiently on a 
    long burn, rather than the short burns while simply maintaining a
    given temperature.  So there is a second order savings.  Note that
    this also has the effect of giving (on a properly adjusted furnace)
    a cleaner burn ... and helps improve overall furnace efficiency.
    
    Stuart
    

    Years ago, utility companies used to tell you that it was more
    economical to leave the furnace on one setting.  Personally, I think
    this was part of a plot for the utility companies to sell more
    electricity/gas.   Programmable thermostats, insulation, storm
    windows/doors are the three smartest things you can do to save money. 
    
    Does anyone know of a programmable thermostat for a hot water heater?
    
    

    Thanks -- that would be great!
    
    Alan

The "Quaterback Water Heater" Timer is Damark Item number 148197.  Mine was
shipped to me on 21 March 1991.  It is for gas hot water heaters only (maybe
only doesn't fit L.P. gas heaters?  I forgot to check).

Damark's number is 800/729-9000.

The Damark water heater timer, item #148197 is discontinued, according to a
sales clerk at the 800 number.

    Do they make a setback thermostat that works on 110 VAC.  My FHW system
    has a Honeywell Thermostat that is wired for 110 VAC (not low voltage 
    24 VAC).  All the ones on the market are for 24 VAC.  Do they make an
    adapter/relay to switch 110 VAC for a low voltage setback Thermostat?
    I measured the voltage and it is not 24 VAC.  The thermostat has a
    mercury switch which connects the 2 wires and put power to the boiler.
    
    I don't exactly know how the 110VAC is wired into the boiler (finished
    ceiling, etc).  The stack/relay box has a 24 volt transformer and looks
    like it is jumpered out (no wires go from it to a low voltage
    thermostat).
    
    Ed 

Use the transformer/relay I mentioned earlier for a 110V circuit.  It will
switch the 110V but provide 24V to your thermostat.

			Steve

    Steve,
    
    Which note had this information on the transformer relay?
    
    
    Ed

Hmm - thought it was this one, but no...  Anyway, Sears sells them for about
$15.  Find them along with the thermostats.  (You may have to hunt around,
as not all stores will keep them in stock.)  You may also be able to find
a similar device at heating supply stores.

			Steve

     This is my first experience with electric heat.

     Now that you know I'm crazy, maybe you can help me.  This system has
     five thermostats.  Pulling off the cover, I see they are made by
     Markel Products Co.  I'm going to look them up tomorrow but in the
     mean time, does anybody know how to set these things with any
     accuracy?!

     The have a knob but no thermometer of any kind.  I've bought a couple
     and have them setting on top of the thermostat.  The knob has almost
     no calibration marks.  At 9 o'clock there is a "50".  At 3 o'clock
     there is a "90".  At the top a wide area says "Comfort Zone".

     As the dial rotates, there are two audible clicks.  Although the
     temperatures are quite different at each location, the clicks may
     occur at the same or at different places in the rotation.

     If that sound confusing, it is a measure of how frustrating it is.

     And this is only the first half of November.  October's electric
     bill was considerably higher than last month.

    
    My suggestion would be the same as I tell people who ask
    about the knobs in refrigerators or on window air conds.
    which have reference numbers and not actual temps.
    
    With electric heat each room is controlled individually.
    Close the door, turn the heat knob to max.  This does NOT
    make the heater get any hotter, just remain on LONGER.
    When the rooms comfortable, turn the know back until it 
    clicks off.  Leave it like that for a day and see. With a
    pencil on the underside of the cover to the stat, if it
    has one, or on the knob, mark the comfortable setting.
    
    Fred

    Assuming any linearity to the dial, there's 40 degrees between 9:00
    and 3:00, which would put 70 degrees at 12:00.
    
    The clicks are probably caused as you pass the ambient room
    temperature in either direction. If the dial is set to 50, and the
    room temp is 70, you'll hear a click as you pass 12:00. The thermostat
    is now set for a temperature higher than the room, and the click is the
    circuit closing which activates the heat to "on". The clicks will move
    in relation to the room temp. (Colder temp in room will "move" the
    clicks counterclockwise towards 9:00. Warmer moves them clockwise
    towards 3:00)
    
    As stated, turning the heat up to 90 when the room is at 60 won't heat 
    the room any faster than turning the dial to 70.
    
    Edd

    As for the "how does it work?", it has a bimetallic (two dissimilar
    metals bonded together) strip which bends as the temperature
    decreases due to differing rates of expansion of the metals.  When
    it bends "enough", it snaps on a set of electrical contacts turning
    on the heat.  As the warm rooms up, it bends back the other way
    and eventually releases the electrical contacts.  The dial adjusts
    the relative position of the strip to the switch thus changing
    how far it has to bend in order to engage it.
    
    				Steve

     Thanks all for the information.  I guess I didn't explain well
     enough.

     As I turn the dial clockwise there are _two_ clicks.  I have learned
     by trial and error the first click apparently doesn't do anything. 
     Only the second actually turns on the heating element.  There are
     also two clicks when turning counter clockwise but that figures.

     The dials do not seem to be linear.  Given a fixed temperature, say
     68 degrees, each thermostat has a different set-point.  One "clicks"
     in at 11:00 another at 2:00.

     Guess it will take getting used to.  The electric bills on the other
     hand... 8^(

     Thanks again.

             mikeP

    
      As you turn the dial clockwise, the first click should happen fairly
    close to the fully counterclockwise position, correct? That is most
    likely the 'off' switch, switching power to the whole thing to 'on'. 
    Then as you continue clockwise, the next click you hear is the actual 
    thermostat closing - which is turning on the heat. *that* position will 
    of course change as the room temp changes.
    
    					Kenny 

    RE: .4
    
    The two clicks are normal. The power to the heater is 220, and as such
    each line is hot to ground. Each line is switched by the thermosat,
    so that when the thermosat is off, both lines are off and "safe".
    
    In order to heat, both lines have to be powered, of course. Therefore
    the normal way that the thermosat is set up, is to have one line come
    on when the thermosat just clears the off position, and then the
    next click is to apply the other line, and hence the power to the 
    heater. The first and second click can be adjusted by removing the
    cover and adjusting the tension on the bimetal...but...I wouldn't
    do it.
    
    Marc H.

Most electric heat thermostats I've seen are notoriously inconsistent, no
matter what the brand ... 5 thermostats, 5 different settings all for the
same temperature.

Note that apart from the low dial click (which is usually an always off
setting), the upper click turning the knob clockwise will be slightly
higher than the equivalent click turning anti-clock ... usually by a
couple degrees. This is to prevent the thermostat making excessive
switchings.

Stuart

  <<< Note 5167.5 by SOLVIT::CHACE "My favorite season is getting nearer!" >>>
    
>     As you turn the dial clockwise, the first click should happen fairly
>   close to the fully counterclockwise position, correct? That is most

No.  It's never in the same place.  It even varies on the same thermostat and
from unit to unit. I think it depends on the temperature.  I think it's the
power on though as you and someone else has suggested.  When I go fully CCW
there is a detent action.  I used that this summer to make sure they were off.

>    Then as you continue clockwise, the next click you hear is the actual 
>    thermostat closing - which is turning on the heat. *that* position will 
>    of course change as the room temp changes.

That's also probably true too.  However the colder the room the further CW you
have to go for the second click.  Kinda thought it would be the other way.

Go figure 8^)

>>     As you turn the dial clockwise, the first click should happen fairly
>>   close to the fully counterclockwise position, correct? That is most
>
>No.  It's never in the same place.  It even varies on the same thermostat and
>from unit to unit. I think it depends on the temperature.  I think it's the

The clicks are from the micro switches (one for each side of the line) 
switching on and off. The cheaper the thermostat the more un-reliable 
and variable the position of the "clicks". And the consistency of the 
heat in the room. I've even had them stick on or off and over heat or 
under heat rooms.

I used to have some cheap themostats like yours, I replaced them with
Honywell brand electric heat thermostats and the reliability and
stability of the heat in the rooms improved. You can find these (the
Honywell's) at decent home repair centers for about $20 to $25. 

As to the heating cost$$$$, a better thermo stat might slightly
reduced the cost (no more over heated rooms) but not by much! 

I've since converted to oil heat. I even have 2 or 3 Honywell's
that I'll sell for $10 each. I've also got 5 or 6 El'Cheapo brand
ones for $5 each. I'm located in the central Mass area if your
interested in trying out one of the Honywell's. 

Charly

I agree.  You get what you pay for. Since this is a lease situation I'm not
going to upgrade on my own however.  At $20 to $25 each with 5 to replace it
wouldn't be worth it.  Especially if what you say about, "a better thermo stat
might slightly reduced the cost (no more over heated rooms) but not by much!"
is true.

	mikeP

  I have never understood why most electric-heat thermostats are so user-
unfriendly (no thermometer and few numbers). If they can "do it right" for
oil-heat thermostats, they can do it right for electric heat ones too. It's 
sort of like why do hot dogs come in packages of 10 and hot dog rolls come in 
packages of 8?
  Is the Honeywell electric heat thermostat similar to the round thermostat
with two pointers used for oil heat? 
  Electric-heat thermostats in rental units are one of my hot buttons. 10 years
ago I lived in an apartment with electric heat in which the bedroom thermostat
clicked so loudly I couldn't sleep. I talked the landlord into putting in a new
one at my expense ($30). I live in an apartment now in which the electric-heat
thermostats work OK but all three are 10 degrees off, that it, I have to set
them at 60 F to get a room temp of 70 F. It would probably cost my landlord
$50 to hire an electrician to fix them, and I don't have the heart to do this
(yet).
  I suggest you mount a thermometer near each thermostat so you can monitor
the temp. Poor regulation could cause a significant increase in electric bills
because to keep from being too cold at times, you tend to set the thermostat
higher and that makes it too warm at other times.
  Another thing that hasn't been mentioned here is the differential between
the turn-on and turn-off points. If it's too high, the room is noticeably too
hot at some times and too cold at others.
  The thermostat should not be directly over the heating unit. If it is, it
won't properly regulate the heat. And a thermostat that is built into the
heating unit is totally worthless; you might as well turn the unit on and off
with a manual switch.

     I now have a small space-heater that goes with me wherever I go in
     the apartment.  All the thermostats are set at the low end of the
     "comfort zone".  For most of them that is below the bottom click
     point.

     When it's time for lights-out, I turn up the bedroom thermostat just
     enough to be comfortable ~68 deg and unplug the space heater.  (I
     have never trusted small appliances with heating elements in them.)

     We'll see how long this lasts when the weather really gets cold. 8^)

     		mikeP

     Question= I am putting the sheetrock up in my cellar and am now ready
       to get over to the 12.2 wires that come out for my Thermostat. I
       have it in a regular Plug outlet Electrical box but I dont think
       this is right. I have not purchased the hardware (baseboard heaters
       & Thermostat) yet. I would like to finish this up before I purchase
       this hardware. Is this electrical box o.k.? Or do I have to buy
       a special box to house these wires in?
    
                          Thanks in advance,
                                              Wayne
    
    
    
    

A regular box is fine.

	Steve

    
     You were correct Steve, a regular box is fine. But what I also found
    out is I need to set that box back and put a Thermostat ring in front
    of the Electrical box and then sheetrock over it...( I didnt know this)
    in case anyone was wondering...
    
                    Thanks,
                                Wayne

Just curious,

>>  But what I also found
    out is I need to set that box back and put a Thermostat ring in front
    of the Electrical box and then sheetrock over it...

are you planning on using a regular 2 pole line voltage thermostat for electric
heat? And was the box a standard 16 or 18 cubic inch "1 gang" switch/outlet box? 

I don't know why you need the "thermostat ring" on it unless the thermostats
you are going to use are not standard. The usual types fit right on the outlet
box with no modifications. 

Now if you have too many wires in the box and need to add some cubic inches
to meet code that would be a different story.....but the ring will still have a
outlet box profile for electric heat line voltage T-stats. 

Paul

If you're installing a low-voltage thermostat (standard Honeywell), are you
required to put a housing around the low-voltage wires in the wall?  I'm
assuming there are no splices in the wall.  Do recent code changes around
low-voltage wiring come in to play here?

Peter, who doesn't want to go back and knock a hole in that new wall...

Those types don't need boxes but it tends to be easier to mount them solidly
if you do use one but they aren't required.


Paul

    
       What the Electritian wanted me to get was a 4" box with a 1 gang
    plaster ring. His reasoning was that the 12.2 wires are stiff and 
    this will make it easier to push the wires back in after the Thermostat
    was Electricaly hooked up. You were correct that I could have used
    a regular box...His prefrance...
    
                             Thanks,
                                     Wayne

That makes sense. It is certainly easier that a one gang box. Just a little
costlier. But if you aren't doing 150 houses a year the expense is bearable. 

I was writing hoping to save you some grief if somebody had you putting the
wrong box in. It's never fun to have to rework boxes after the drywall
is taped/painted etc.

Later

Paul

    Sommerville Lumber in Bedford, NH never heard of a Honeywell thermostat
    wrench.  Anyone have any recent experience on who might carry these in
    the southern NH, eastern MA area?
    
    Bob

    I've got a related question: 
    
    My house is a cape (in Mass.) -- it has Forced Hot Air heat&A/C, one
    thermostat on the main floor. Problem is (of course) that the bedrooms
    upstairs are always hotter than the main floor.  This is OK in the
    winter, but causes problems in the summer with the A/C.  As the world
    outside cools at night, the main floor temperature stabilizes, but the
    bedrooms upstairs are still too hot.  I could set the main floor
    thermostat to a really low temperature at night, but this seems a bit
    foolish...
    
    It occured to me last night (whilst sweltering in bed), that what I'd
    really like (since a multi-zone installation seems impractical) is a
    second thermostat upstairs;  at night I'd use the upstairs thermostat,
    during the day I'd use the downstairs one.  Any thoughts on how I
    can accomplish this easily?  Right now I have a mechanical thermostat
    on the main floor (standard round Honewell job, with a cool-off-heat
    selector) -- would adding another one in parallel upstairs do the
    trick?

    
    Sure you can wire a stat in parallel upstairs.  BUT - , I don't
    think you'll accomplish what you're looking for.  It appears
    you are not getting sufficient air flow out of the diffusers
    "to do the cooling" up there.  Each branch line off of the main
    air duct in the basement should have a little damper arm within
    2' of the main trunk. Mark the point where it's at. Take a few
    pieces of "MARK 3" wind direction indicator (toilet paper about
    a foot long) or the "MARK-4" which is more sensitive, (split the
    sheet to one thickness)  :^)  and tape about a foot of it over each
    diffuser upstairs and watch how high it goes with the fan on.
    If it don't go up, cut it in half lengthwise. That should do it.
    Now write down how much each one rises.  Then go down to the 
    basement and (be sure you have marked where the handle is located)
    move the handle to the damper about 10% to the closed position
    on each one. Then take note of the improvement upstairs.  Don't
    shut them more than 25%. The actual weight of the cold air may
    be more than what your supply fan can lift to the second level.
    You may need a couple of small booster fans.
    
    Fred
    

Re:  .20

I've the inverse problem in the winter with the t'stat in the center of the
main hall close to a floor grate that is ducted to a phlenum(sp) over my basement
wood stove.  Being in the 'core' of the house and directly xposed to the heat
of the wood stove the bulk of the (ranch) house was noticably cooler.

I didn't want to jack the t'stat up 'cause if/when the wood stove were to go
cold/out then the 'true' temp. would be read from the t'stat and the house
would go too warm.

I put a second t'stat in 'the front room' in parallel with the 'old' one (both
manual) and have them both set to approx. the same temp.  Which ever one is
closed will kick the burner in.

Works fine and corrected the situation as intended.  Wired the second one to
the relay at the burner.  As I recall there were even xtra lugs on the relay
that would seem to have been provided just for this purpose.

    I don't think the problem is airflow -- I've adjusted dampers already,
    and the upstairs cools off just fine.  The problem is the the upstairs
    heats up much faster than the main floor, and also that, as the outside
    temperature drops, the main floor stabilizes with the upstairs too hot.
    
    I can compensate somewhat for the latter problem by setting the
    thermostat lower, but that still doesn't solve ther first problem.

    My (recently purchased) house has oil fired FHA & central air unit
    combination. I want to change the old round thermostat for an
    electronic thermostat with lots of bells & whistles BUT....I don't know
    what to do about the *other* control device immediately above the main
    thermostat. It looks just like the main thermostat but only has a temp
    control adjust knob....the previous owners description makes it sound
    like it determined the temperature at which the fan would come on when
    the main thermostat is being used in auto-mode. 
    So....I'm unsure about what to do with this come the time I change the
    main thermostat...
    
    Will the new thermostat "accomodate" this as an integral part of it's
    function ( i.e. are modern one's equipped to do "both" ) ?
    
    I need to remove this control from it's present position but obviously
    I need to the functionality to remain. Anyone able to shed some light
    on this for me ?
    
    Trevor

                                                <<< Note 75.210 by PATE::POUNDER >>>
                                             -< Replacing old thermostat - help reqd >-

    My (recently purchased) house has oil fired FHA & central air unit
    combination. I want to change the old round thermostat for an
    electronic thermostat with lots of bells & whistles BUT....I don't know
    what to do about the *other* control device immediately above the main
    thermostat. It looks just like the main thermostat but only has a temp
    control adjust knob....the previous owners description makes it sound
    like it determined the temperature at which the fan would come on when
    the main thermostat is being used in auto-mode. 
    So....I'm unsure about what to do with this come the time I change the
    main thermostat...
    
    Will the new thermostat "accomodate" this as an integral part of it's
    function ( i.e. are modern one's equipped to do "both" ) ?
    
    I need to remove this control from it's present position but obviously
    I need to the functionality to remain. Anyone able to shed some light
    on this for me ?
    
    Trevor